The trailer is dark and full of spoilers
January 30, 2015 4:36 PM   Subscribe

The final two episodes from Season 4 of Game of Thrones were shown again, in remastered IMAX format, along with a trailer for the upcoming season 5. Unsurprisingly, the trailer was posted online, in all its blurry goodness. So HBO decided to release the high quality version and photos from the upcoming season, prompting much speculation on what will and won't be in the tv version of the popular books.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (119 comments total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
 
FYI, I wrote this post with the idea that there would be plenty of spoilers and both the books and upcoming seasons would be discussed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:40 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Related news: In the least surprising announcement since, well, ever it has been confirmed that Winds of Winter will not appear until at least 2016. So the HBO series will pass the novels this season! Hooray!
posted by Justinian at 4:41 PM on January 30, 2015 [10 favorites]


Oh thank fuck. And lbr we could have 20 more seasons and 2 movies and a christmas special before we ever see a book again, and i don't caaaaare i don't care i don't care i don't caaaaaare
posted by poffin boffin at 4:42 PM on January 30, 2015 [13 favorites]


KHALEESI IS COMING!!!
posted by Fizz at 4:46 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


there would be plenty of spoilers and both the books and upcoming seasons would be discussed.

So, uh, that Dance With Dragons ending... think we'll get it in the show?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:47 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


So what, the hbo writers are going to try and tie all this stuff together on their own? That'll go swimmingly I'm sure..

I've watched a few season of the show, but read all the books. I'm surprised to hear the show will pass the books this upcoming season. Where are they book-wise right now? They must be skipping things left and right. Bad move imo.
posted by meta87 at 4:48 PM on January 30, 2015


KHALEESI IS COMING!!!

We should be so lucky. So far as I can tell Khaleesi is spending the rest of my natural life fucking around in the East doing not much of anything.
posted by Justinian at 4:48 PM on January 30, 2015 [19 favorites]


They must be skipping things left and right. Bad move imo.

Are you kidding? The real problem isn't that the show is skipping things, it's that GRRM isn't. Like half of the last 3 books.
posted by Justinian at 4:50 PM on January 30, 2015 [19 favorites]


I agree the books drag, but my question is what will they accomplish by plowing ahead of the books?

SPOILER

And at least Khaleesi is out of that goddamn city!
posted by meta87 at 4:51 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


So what, the hbo writers are going to try and tie all this stuff together on their own? That'll go swimmingly I'm sure..

Martin and the show runners for Game of Thrones have reportedly had in depth discussions of the what's coming in the unfinished/unpublished books.
posted by Frayed Knot at 4:51 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I misread this thread's title as "The trailer is dark and full of SPIDERS."

I'm kinda disappointed now.
posted by byanyothername at 4:52 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


In a perfect world he would just admit that he's not gonna finish the books, as is his fucking perogative as the creator of that universe, and is instead going to work on the show scripts. PROBLEM SOLVED, call me hbo im here for you
posted by poffin boffin at 4:53 PM on January 30, 2015 [18 favorites]


Also, another break down of the trailer from vulture.com.
posted by Frayed Knot at 4:53 PM on January 30, 2015


Questions: What was up with HBO not releasing the high resolution version with the IMAX premiere of the episodes? That was just odd.

And who choose that music to play in the trailer. What terrible choice. There's plenty of fine music the show has created, why not use that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:54 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I remember hand-selling this series (literally going to the fantasy section and placing the first book in a consumer's hands) back when I worked in a book store many years ago. At some point though I stopped doing so because I realized how cruel it was to give people such a great series knowing that it would likely not be finished for another 15 years.

At this point, I've given up on the books and am perfectly content with the HBO adapted series. It's entertaining and a delight. I have no problem with the series departing from the books in the ways that they have.

Winter is Coming!!!
posted by Fizz at 4:55 PM on January 30, 2015


Martin and the show runners for the Game of Thrones have reportedly had in depth discussions of the what's coming in the unfinished/unpublished books.

I've heard that too, but always assumed that was a fail-safe plan for if a tragedy happened. Not that they would just plow ahead with a rough summary of his plans. Interesting if that is what happens. The book people will have to stay away from tv watchers SPOILER ALERTS!
posted by meta87 at 4:55 PM on January 30, 2015


but my question is what will they accomplish by plowing ahead of the books?

What they accomplish is producing a television series. What's the alternative? Cancelling the biggest show in the world and going home?
posted by Justinian at 4:55 PM on January 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


By the way, in case anyone thinks I'm some sort of anti-book detractor: I'm on record on RASFW 15 years ago calling the first 3 books the best work of epic fantasy since Tolkien and possibly including Tolkien. Martin just somehow managed to completely lose control of his series and I think it's a tragedy. The later books don't detract from the excellence of the first couple but they sure don't add to it.
posted by Justinian at 4:58 PM on January 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


Oh man how are fanfare threads going to work now? Because talking about old show canon is allowed in all spoilers threads but now that book readers will eventually be able to watch the show without book spoilers...

mayhem, basically
posted by poffin boffin at 4:59 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


it would definitely be stupid if they paused/split the show up arbitrarily ala mad men, BSG, etc.

the show really needs to be allowed to forge its own path. a lot of the calls they've made in changing things have been for the better(besides the rape stuff, ugh).
posted by emptythought at 4:59 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Are you kidding me? The only reason HBO would commit more money to this project than they have to anything else for miles is the absolute, iron clad, rock solid guarantee that there would be closure come hell or high water.

Thank God they did, too.
posted by absalom at 5:00 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


wait do I have to watch the show now
posted by halifix at 5:04 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah the show is not stopping, pausing, splitting, or anything else. They will do seasons 5, 6, and 7 and finish the series. Hell, they might do that even before Winds of Winter is published. Since I put it at about 50/50 that Winds is ever published at all.
posted by Justinian at 5:04 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Of course they shouldn't just cancel the show Justinian, but it sounds like they are skipping many plot aspects that could extend the show's runtime. Maybe they have it straight from George RR that things such as the Golden Company and Lady Stoneheart are completely irrelevant to the conclusion of the series. Which would suck! I mean this tv season 5 right? But they can't even get an entire season out of book 5? I thought George was getting back on track after reading the latest book and still have hope he can finish things off in a satisfactory manner. Maybe I'm delusional. Hope not.
posted by meta87 at 5:05 PM on January 30, 2015


but it sounds like they are skipping many plot aspects that could extend the show's runtime

They can't extend the show's runtime. They have 7 seasons and that's it. Logistically it's just not realistic to go longer.
posted by Justinian at 5:06 PM on January 30, 2015


we could have 20 more seasons and 2 movies and a christmas special

A Very Selmy Christmas: Ser Barristan struggles to bring an old-fashioned Westeros-style Septmas to the people of Meereen. Featuring original songs by Patchface and a special holiday arrangement of "The Rains of Castamere."
posted by Iridic at 5:07 PM on January 30, 2015 [34 favorites]


I'm excited for Arya, that's for sure. She's been a consistent bright spot amid a lot of dullness. The Tyrion stuff has the potential to be much improved over what we got in DWD. I can't see any way Dany's stuff gets any better, and in fact can see it being much worse. Sansa could be cool (since that's beyond where the book is). Cersei and King's Landing could indeed be very awesome. The Reek shit should be incredibly tedious, as it is in the book.

I'm looking forward to it overall. I think they have the opportunity to improve over the books, if they do it correctly.
posted by codacorolla at 5:08 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


To stall for time we get a three episode mini arc following Ser Pounce's adventures
posted by The Whelk at 5:10 PM on January 30, 2015 [24 favorites]


As someone who came to the books very late (the fifth was about to be published when I started reading the first), I think they're perfectly fine. They're thematically consistent, the world and characters remain interesting and impressively detailed and open to change that feels natural and engaging.

What they did do was mess with reader's expectations pretty bad, something greatly amplified by the staggered releases. Having all of the books available at once means that the shift away from the Starks as protagonists in the second book is just something to accept, as is the shift away from most of the spotlight characters in the fourth book. That's just something they do, and it's not really upsetting or disappointing unless you've projected wrong expectations onto what they should be.

I love the books (and don't watch the show) but their fanbase seems dominated by people who are very loud about having invested time and energy into a series that turned out not to be what they thought they'd signed on for, which is pretty bizarre to a newcomer. There's a lot of puzzling obliviousness to the bigger themes in the books, too. The absolute strongest theme running through nearly everything in the series is that the entire concept of "rightful rulers" is complete and utter nonsense, yet the fanbase obsesses over J/D and seems to want Grimdark Return of the King. There's some huge disconnect between what the series is and is trying to be and say, and what its audience expects it to be. Martin seems pretty aware of that, and willing to play with it, which just widens the gaps. I think he's right that their legacy will be very different from their ongoing pop culture attraction, "finished" or not.
posted by byanyothername at 5:10 PM on January 30, 2015 [24 favorites]


Honestly I really hope both the series and the books finish, and have completely different endings. That would be super cool... continuity is overrated.

It would be extra cool if there was like one little moment early in both TV series and book that differed, and that moment served as the seed for all the subsequent changes. But it's probably too late for that, unless someone has been very clever.
posted by selfnoise at 5:11 PM on January 30, 2015 [9 favorites]


I never really expected the books to pan out with a happy epic ending, I just hate the way certain characters turn out. They do nothing but mope and cry and mill around, not going anywhere, and not doing anything. It's like watching a car spin tires in the fucking mud. I'm fine with unconventional fantasy stuff (and would prefer it) but I don't want to read the same damn internal monologue for ~500 pages.
posted by codacorolla at 5:14 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't think it's possible to argue reasonably that the last two books aren't more poorly written than the first couple. "Nuncle", anyone? Purely on a sentence level they're much clunkier. That's leaving aside all the padding.
posted by Justinian at 5:21 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


The writing of the hbo show keeps making fun and unexpected turns. The writing staff seems actively engaged with the characters and their plights, or are at least committed to making it fresh.

GRRM seems to enjoy bacchanal and the convention scene and various side projects. Two decades in, general consensus is, he's a bit tired of it.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 5:27 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


So what, the hbo writers are going to try and tie all this stuff together on their own? That'll go swimmingly I'm sure..

I've watched a few season of the should, but read all the books. I'm surprised to hear the show will pass the books this upcoming season. Where are they book-wise right now? They must be skipping things left and right. Bad move imo.


At this point the show is cannon, fans show make their peace with it. GRRM is never going to finish the series. He's already given the showrunners a plot outline and I imagine they've read excepts or the entire draft of Winds. He's given them his blessing to pass the books, which they're doing. I suspect his legendarily slow writign process will grind to nothing once the show has already ended the story.

Id love to be proven wrong, but as a loyal reader since 1998, seeing is believing with Martin, and what I see today is a show that (predictably) passed him like he was standing still after having a 4 year head start. Put me in the "the books will never be finished" camp.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:29 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


GRRM seems to enjoy bacchanal and the convention scene and various side projects. Two decades in, general consensus is, he's a bit tired of it.

Exactly, all the momentum is with the show. Good for Martin, I don't begrudge him living his life how he wants to, he's earned it and doesnt owe us fans anything really. Im glad he passed on the story to someone who has the passion to finish it, I just don't expect it to be him.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:33 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


wait do I have to watch the show now

Seriously. My high horse has been slain and I am fleeing towards safety but the Show Watchers On The Wall are laughing as they close the gates
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:35 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


OK, speaking directly to trailer reaction: who else was weirded out by the choice of music until approx. 1:30, and then suddenly it was GOOSEBUMP CITY? I was really disappointed by the music until that point, and then I got awesome shivers the way I did when I suddenly clocked on to exactly what the Age of Ultron trailer was doing with "I've Got No Strings" and it was REALLY CREEPY AND NEAT!

In short: I am a book reader & show watcher who got spoiled for Dance of Dragons mid-read and getting spoiled was almost a relief because god what a slog and basically whatever the showrunners do with Sansa can't be worse than what GRRM did to her and I'm so much more on board for their story than the books.
posted by none of these will bring disaster at 5:45 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


wait do I have to watch the show now

Reading this thread it seems we do :(

Pretty sure I remember people proclaiming the last book would never come out either so I'll hold onto a sliver of hope. A SLIVER.

I love selnoise's idea of a totally different ending for both. Can HBO sue George if he gave them the shitty ending?? I kid tv fans.
posted by meta87 at 5:53 PM on January 30, 2015


I'm not going to read this thread as I want to avoid spoilers. I'm going to an IMAX screening on the 3rd so I've been plowing through season 4 to catch up. Such a good show. I was so late to the party.
posted by brundlefly at 6:02 PM on January 30, 2015


If they manage to shorten or remove The Continuing Adventures of Tyrion on a Boat, that'll be more than enough for me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:05 PM on January 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


So if the HBO series finishes before Martin does, can we refer to his last book as a novelization of the show? Or fanfiction?
posted by bibliowench at 6:05 PM on January 30, 2015


I just hope at some point we all get to feast on some giant slices of pie with the Freys
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:12 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I kind of liked the boat parts, had a great Heart of Darkness feel.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:17 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


Once the show completely passes the books, sooner or later someone who only reads the books is going to be talking to someone who only watches the show, and a plot detail from the later seasons will come up and the show watcher will go OH SWEET SUMMER CHILD and then, collectively as one, everyone who read the books will pause and then say, "Jesus, wow, yeah it's really annoying to have someone say that to you. Sorry about that."
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 6:20 PM on January 30, 2015 [18 favorites]


I'll be ok as long as they don't kill the last Stark.
posted by thoughtslut at 6:20 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


At least one Stark is essentially unkillable at this point.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:22 PM on January 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


Since starting The Song of Fire and Ice I haven't started another unfinished book series. I've learned my lesson and I'll wait until series are finished now. Sorry authors, you're not my bitch and I am not willing to be yours.
posted by srboisvert at 6:23 PM on January 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


Count me in as another fan who isn't holding her breath for GRRM to finish the series. I'm going to just enjoy the show and read fanfic! (And, besides, ADWD was so disappointing that I don't have high hopes for TWOW in that regard.)

ADWD had a shitload of filler (and, referring to the last Dany chapter, a LITERAL shitload). I think the show is going to have to skip over Tyrion's Endless Boat Trip, Now With Turtles!, the Night's Watch Costco, and Dany spinning her wheels in a land where people are named by picking Scrabble tiles from out of a hat.

I am going to miss Jaime in the Riverlands - I wanted to hear him say "Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out! *SMACK*" His and Sansa's chapters were my favorites in AFFC.

I am REALLY looking forward to Sansa's storyline now.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:24 PM on January 30, 2015


I'll be ok as long as they don't kill the last Stark.

Arya
Sansa
Jon Snow
Bran
Rickard

By numbers alone, it seems as though a Stark will be around at the end.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 PM on January 30, 2015


So if the HBO series finishes before Martin does, can we refer to his last book as a novelization of the show?

Somewhere, Alan Dean Foster cracks his knuckles. "It's on, Georgey-Boy. It's on."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:27 PM on January 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


Here is one of my closest friends podcasting about the trailer and what it means for things to come, with Prof. Steven Attewell.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:52 PM on January 30, 2015


KHALEESI IS COMING!!!

What better time then to play Kahless or Khaleesi?
posted by juiceCake at 7:07 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Somehow watching the series has made me want to never read the books. There's only so much time that I really want to spend with such terrible people.
posted by octothorpe at 7:10 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Copying a Slashdot comment by sexconker:

Published: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons

Not yet published: The Winds of Winter, A Dream of Spring.

Doesn't seem too Robert Jordan.
posted by thoughtslut at 7:14 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Now list year of publication.
posted by Justinian at 7:17 PM on January 30, 2015


It's: 1996, 1999, 2000, 2005, 2011.

The next two I predict would be: 2017, 2024 but probably never.
posted by Justinian at 7:26 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't understand the comment about Jordan?

Wheel of Time's was a bloated messiness that I abandoned after book six, so while I can criticize Jordan for losing track of the story, I can't ever fault him for giving up on it: in 15 years Robert Jordan wrote 11 Wheel of Time novels.

In 15 years, GRRM has written 5 Song of Fire and Ice novels. Those five are better than all eleven of Jordan's, so I'm fine with that, but other than doorstop-sized novels, they seem to have very different fatal flaws as writers.
posted by absalom at 7:26 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


561 BCE
12 AD
598 AD
idk like 2001 maybe
2010? 2011? idek
2055
2237
posted by poffin boffin at 7:27 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


1996, 1998, 2000...2005...2011....2016?....n/a

Jordan thrashed out 9 books from 1990 (although he started writing in 1984) till 2000, and 3 more complete plus parts of the last 3 before his death in 2007.

Sure, you could've (and should've) edited down the actual plot from the last 9 books into maybe 3 more, but Martin's last two have had a lot of filler too, at less than half the pace Jordan was on.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:27 PM on January 30, 2015


absalom, I don't know about you, but there was an equivalent to when GRRM went on for pages about Fire & Ice heraldry. It felt like 3 pages about herbal magic in Wheel of Time. Like any other writer, Stephen King included, they get big, they tell the editor no. The Aes Sedai straightens her skirt. Again.
posted by thoughtslut at 7:32 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


*tugs braid*
posted by Justinian at 7:33 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


They're both still way better than David Weber. Has anyone read his last couple of books... because he uses ellipses on every page... and I'm not exaggerating. I once counted four ellipses on a single page and another time he used three in one paragraph.

And that's the least of his sins.
posted by Justinian at 7:34 PM on January 30, 2015


*knuckles forehead*

*curses Rand*

..also I've been reading WoT and wow, Jordan was seriously into S&M. It's the only possible explanations for spankings at a rate that would make Anne Rice blush.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:37 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I feel like we're treading dangerously close to impugning Wild Cards and if that's the case, I kindly suggest we back off before I climb into this shell I made of battleship armor salvage from a friend's junkyard for some reason.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:39 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


It feels like at least a majority of people on the thread don't know this already about the HBO/GRRM partnership:

HBO refused to make a single episode unless GRRM would, under NDA, tell them how the storylines were going to conclude. This all happened before S01E01. They have an ending, envisioned and endorsed by GRRM, which will be filmed whether the final books are in print or not.

It might actually be a better thing that the HBO series blows by the available printed material.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:43 PM on January 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


If anybody who is only familiar with GRRM through this series doesn't think he could possibly write a tight and controlled story, I heartily recommended picking up his Sandkings. So good.

Dying of the Light and Fevre Dream are also quite worthwhile.
posted by Justinian at 7:46 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Dying of the Light is a pretty great book but so very, very bleak. I recommend it but only if you pencil in some quality time with your woobie afterward.
posted by trunk muffins at 8:03 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


If I were GRRM the show finally passing the books would be a huge relief and I'd probably finally write faster without the pressure. And also definitely go for a different ending because it would be way more fun that way.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:11 PM on January 30, 2015


If I were HBO, I would make sure GRRM were contractually obligated to himself use the ending he provided to the show-writers, or else he did not fulfill his obligation to provide them with real notes on how the series would end.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:26 PM on January 30, 2015


I've heard that too, but always assumed that was a fail-safe plan for if a tragedy happened. Not that they would just plow ahead with a rough summary of his plans. Interesting if that is what happens.

This is actually pretty common in the manga/anime world. Sometimes the versions will be generally the same but differ in minor details. Other times the versions will differ greatly.

I am completely fine with either path when it comes to this particular series.
posted by sparkletone at 8:26 PM on January 30, 2015


Worst-case scenario, you get a Scott Pilgrim vs the World ending which reveals that the show creators didn't understand the source material, but it sounds like GRRM wouldn't have agreed to the show if he thought that that was a danger.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 PM on January 30, 2015


I don't think Weiss and Benioff have shown any hint that they don't understand the source material. They've done a brilliant job interweaving episodic themes in with the main narrative. Better than GRRM lately.
posted by Justinian at 8:49 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I hope the ending is the camera pulling back to see Moon Boy playing with a snowglobe.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:04 PM on January 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


TBH the trailer I want is the one that promises that Alex Graves isn't directing any more episodes.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:05 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


No, the final final scene will be the camera pulling back to reveal Moon Boy peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal special guest appearance by Alejandro Jodorowsky! who instructs the camera to pull back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into a snowglobe as the camera pulls back to reveal a Walder Frey peering into
posted by byanyothername at 9:20 PM on January 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


What they did do was mess with reader's expectations pretty bad, something greatly amplified by the staggered releases. Having all of the books available at once means that the shift away from the Starks as protagonists in the second book is just something to accept, as is the shift away from most of the spotlight characters in the fourth book. That's just something they do, and it's not really upsetting or disappointing unless you've projected wrong expectations onto what they should be.

I love the books (and don't watch the show) but their fanbase seems dominated by people who are very loud about having invested time and energy into a series that turned out not to be what they thought they'd signed on for, which is pretty bizarre to a newcomer. There's a lot of puzzling obliviousness to the bigger themes in the books, too. The absolute strongest theme running through nearly everything in the series is that the entire concept of "rightful rulers" is complete and utter nonsense, yet the fanbase obsesses over J/D and seems to want Grimdark Return of the King. There's some huge disconnect between what the series is and is trying to be and say, and what its audience expects it to be. Martin seems pretty aware of that, and willing to play with it, which just widens the gaps. I think he's right that their legacy will be very different from their ongoing pop culture attraction, "finished" or not.


I started the books after ADwD was published, and so I knew already that AFfC didn't include Dany, Jon or Tyrion and so never had a chance to be disappointed by that, and came away thinking that one was chillingly good. It is, more than any of the other books even, the one that feels like it's focused on what it means to be a woman with aspirations in a world very, very hostile to that, from just about every angle. (See: Cersei taking down Margaery, the Kingsmoot refusing Asha despite her obviously being the right choice, everything Brienne goes through, Arriane's machinations - to put a woman on the Iron Throne, no less - botched simply because DOran hadn't let her in on what her brothers knew, and Cersei finally destroying herself, but in a way where "justice" is meted out in a display so horrifyingly degrading and misogynistic that it makes you sympathize with the series chief "villain" at that point (granted, that last part really comes in ADwD.)

By finally making Cersei a POV character, as she grows drunker and more paranoid, we get a central post for a story where everybody in it is making choices simply because a choice has to be made rather than because a particular choice is the right one, and thus everyone is flailing around like they're drowning, which they might as well be. I loved A Feast for Crows.

Then I read A Dance with Dragons and had about this reaction.

So at some point I had to just read synopses, reactions, theories, etc. just to make sense of ADwD, at which point I realized that there's a ton of interesting stuff going on in there, just not told in an interesting way. Or even in a coherent way. So here's my beef:

AFfC and ADwD are both going to work way, way better on screen than they did on the page, because the main problems (namely, too many new characters that are hard to recall, and the separation of simultaneous timelines) aren't going to be an issue there.We will see characters and understand them, rather than having to remember which one is Victarion and which one is Eulon and so on and so on.

As for your second point, the focus on Dany, Jon and Tyrion is because the series (both of them) have clearly set them up as the central characters by now. The series is also, foremost, a deconstruction of the "romance" of the fantasy genre setting, and thus whatever end-game is going to happen will have to at least bring up the plausibility of the medieval power structure being torn down. Dany, Jon and Tyrion are the characters most able to do this, most willing, and with the least to lose in doing so. It's not just fanboy wankery that drives people to focus on them.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:39 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


there are only a few end games I will accept, and they're all somewhere between Sansa setting up a socialist utopia and dragons and ice zombies fighting over an uninhabited frozen moonscape.
posted by The Whelk at 10:25 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


But... The Whelk... the moon is a dragon's egg.

It is known.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:27 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


OH FUCK YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by Jacqueline at 10:37 PM on January 30, 2015


The Tyrion stuff has the potential to be much improved over what we got in DWD.

Well yeah now that Varys has gone with him to Essos instead of skulking around King's Landing.

More Varys is gonna be awesome.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:04 PM on January 30, 2015


I liked the stories from the Riverlands and the chapters spent with the common folk. I probably would even enjoy the series without the dragons.

I mean; a climate change event threatens the very existence of the seven kingdoms even as the kingdoms fall into the chaos of total war. There's enough of a story in that just by itself.

Maybe GRRM puts dragons in his books just so you'll read all the history stuff.
posted by vicx at 11:09 PM on January 30, 2015


Well yeah now that Varys has gone with him to Essos instead of skulking around King's Landing.

More Varys is gonna be awesome.


Though having no Kevan is going to be frustrating. I'm guessing they give that whole bit at the end to Pycelle, but that just doesn't play nearly the same. Pycelle is a craven bastard and has been since we've met him. Kevan is decent and competent, basically possessing most of Tywin's admirable traits but without the evil. When Varys murders him, it means something, to both of them, because Kevan is a good man in a bad system, and Varys needs to wreck the system. Pycelle is a bad man in a bad system who happened to be right like a stopped clock. It's not quite the same.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:12 PM on January 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


As for your second point, the focus on Dany, Jon and Tyrion is because the series (both of them) have clearly set them up as the central characters by now.

I've recently been converted to a believer in the Tyrion-is-a-secret-Targaryen theory, and thus those three will end up being the three heads of the dragon.

I still need to get WOIAF but I'm told that it confirms that Joanna was in King's Landing and thus accessible to Aerys when she got pregnant with Tyrion? And assuming that R+L=J is true, that would mean all three of them both had Targaryen fathers and killed their mothers in childbirth.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:13 PM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yep! (I'm very inordinately proud of myself for having come up with the death-in-childbirth connection before seemingly almost anybody else on the internet had. Now even my friends who were surprised when I mentioned it try to tell me that everybody knows that.)
posted by Navelgazer at 11:15 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, regarding deviations between the novels and the books that may or may not be significant, while Talisa died during the Red Wedding, Jeyne Westerling not only survived (she wasn't there) but GRRM has announced that not only is she alive but is still part of the story as she will appear in the prologue of Winds of Winter. He seemed kinda vexed over HBO changing the fate of Robb Stark's wife.

Many book fans assumed that Talisa was stabbed in the belly on the show specifically to put to rest the ongoing speculation about Robb Stark's heir, but if it turns out that decision was made without GRRM's approval then maybe a child of Robb Stark is still a possibility in the books! That could result in some pretty significant divergence.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:24 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


So much love for Olenna Tyrell making scary scary threats.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:29 PM on January 30, 2015


there are only a few end games I will accept, and they're all somewhere between Sansa setting up a socialist utopia and dragons and ice zombies fighting over an uninhabited frozen moonscape.

I saw a theory once that Littlefinger quietly loathes the entire government/social structure of Westeros and is basically trying to destabilize the system in advance of what is predicted to be an unusually brutal winter, preventing any sort of survival that would be able to carry forth the Westerosi feudal system once the winter subsides. I like the idea, but I can't see GRRM letting it succeed. I don't think he's quite so nihilistic in his design.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:38 PM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I saw a theory once that Littlefinger quietly loathes the entire government/social structure of Westeros and is basically trying to destabilize the system...

Yeah, if you want to, you can read ASOIAF as various societies, factions, and characters representing different stages in Marx's Theory of History:

Primitive communism = the Children of the Forest and/or the Wildlings
Slave society = most of Essos
Feudalism = Westeros
Capitalism = the eventual end result of Littlefinger's manipulations

The additional details given about Littlefinger in the books suggest that he's basically setting up the bourgeois revolution. He used his position of Master of Coin to increase the wealth and power of the merchants and traders, get commoners hired for various government jobs based on merit instead of the traditional appointment of people with noble heritage, and financially destabilize the monarchy.

One of my fondest but most unlikeliest hopes for the series is that GRRM's schtick for subverting common fantasy tropes is leading up to an endgame of NOBODY on the Iron Throne because the smallfolk get so sick of the nobility's shit that they overthrow the feudal system and institute a constitutional republic. If such a thing were to happen, you'd better bet that Littlefinger would be instrumental in it.

That also ties into my other hope for endgame to be Varys vs. Littlefinger in a battle of the puppetmasters. Varys supporting a return of the Targaryen dynasty vs. Littlefinger wanting to do away with royal dynasties altogether.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:59 PM on January 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


Now would be a good time to revisit last year's GOT/ASOIAF fan theories round up in light of the new information revealed in the season 5 promo and the World of Ice and Fire book.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:03 AM on January 31, 2015


Oh, not quite that- the theory I read held that Littlefinger isn't trying to build anything, but rather hates the feudal system so much that he's willing to kill everybody in Westeros to see it destroyed.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:07 AM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]




I completely forgot every plot detail of A Dance with Dragons because I disliked it so much (and decided that after putting that one down I wouldn't be reading anything further from Mr. Martin).

To keep up with this thread I looked at the Wikipedia plot summary for ADwD, particularly about Arya, which says "In Braavos, Arya Stark is trained by the guild of assassins known as the Faceless Men, while herself under the influence of a temporary blindness during which she learns to rely on her hearing. While blind, she discovers her ability to telepathically perceive objects seen by cats." (Emphasis mine.)

Telepathically perceive objects seen by cats? Seriously? This happens?
posted by minsies at 12:37 AM on January 31, 2015


Warging runs in the Stark family line.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:40 AM on January 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


re: Different books and shows, Hitchhikers guide has a different plot in each of the Radio Show, Book, tv show, film, stage show, so...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 1:49 AM on January 31, 2015


Thanks, Jacqueline - I'd done a bit more reading after posting that and was reminded of the warging thing. Maybe it was just the way whoever authored that Wikipedia bit phrased it that threw me.
posted by minsies at 2:22 AM on January 31, 2015


Seriously? This happens?

Yep. Arya's plotline was the most interesting, then it became the most confoundingly interesting.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:26 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


The spoilers "hidden" in that trailer are actually mind-boggeling blatant. If they are spoilers, I mean.
posted by ZeroAmbition at 8:06 AM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm totally new to this discussion, having only seen the series and not having read the books nor any online discussions, so forgive my ignorance.

But, isn't the whole thing building up to a zombie (ice) versus dragon (fire) showdown? Winter is coming, Melisandre foresees this as an even bigger deal than her superstitious power grabs, winter means ice zombies having the run of the place, & only fire can stop them. The dragons have the fire (this has probably happened 1000s of years before, hence dragon glass strewn about north of the wall, suggesting dragon fire collaterally melting rocks while slaying zombies, back in the dragon heyday). Dany has the dragons, so she (& her bros if that's who they turn out to be) ultimately save the day.

Right? Or am I missing something?

Also...

Metafilter: There's only so much time that I really want to spend with such terrible people.
posted by univac at 8:38 AM on January 31, 2015


univac: I'd say that's definitely the major gist of it, plot-wise, but we're not just watching all the palace intrigue and everything as a giant exercise in Nero fiddling while Rome burns. This story doesn't just end with a battle between white walkers and dragons - it ends with a revolution. Dany and Jon (and I expect Tyrion, but I could be wrong about that, obviously) Are both in the process of changing age-old wrong-headed systems for the better, and learning from a young age what resistance to that looks like and how to deal with it. Both of them will be able to make a claim to power when it's all said and done, but neither will bear a line of succession. It's all set up (in my opinion) for a destruction of the old ways.

(And I'd like to think that the amount of emphasis put on the shot of the Harpy being yanked off the pyramid is symbolic of the series going in this direction, but I'm probably just reading too much into things there.)
posted by Navelgazer at 8:50 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Eh, TWOW "is half done" (since four years ago) and will be published for damned sure. Book 7 and 8 (yes eight!) though, who knows (GRRM's middle finger notwithstanding)?

The last two books are definitely differently written (and from TWOW excerpts, yes, it will still be that slow, hence the 8 books prediction. If you want to call them worse Justinian, go ahead, but I'm not sure why you and other AFFC/ADWD haters seem so angry that there are folks who still enjoy them.

I love AFFC (so I'm fucked in that regard because the show doesn't) and I'm bored by most of ADWD for the obvious lame ass reason: All my favorites are in the other book.
posted by ZeroAmbition at 8:54 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


I love AFFC (so I'm fucked in that regard because the show doesn't)

Holy shit they had better not shortchange AFfC. In a universally great cast Lena Headey is one of their greatest assets and this is where Cersei gets the most fascinating.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:00 AM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


If you want to call them worse Justinian, go ahead, but I'm not sure why you and other AFFC/ADWD haters seem so angry that there are folks who still enjoy them.

Angry? Really?
posted by absalom at 9:01 AM on January 31, 2015


Right? Or am I missing something?

One thing that the shows don't emphasize is that the world is slowly lurching out of feudalism. The smallfolk are getting tired of fickle rule by lords and ladies who routinely send them to die, and that has been exacerbated by the magical apocalypse that's approaching. The church, although semi-powerful, was largely neutered by the crown, but amid the apocalyptic happenings and populist unrest they've been gaining power. Also because of the approaching apocalypse people of lower birth, like Baelish, are gaining power and upsetting former family hierarchies of power (one can argue that Dany and Jon are also doing this, although I'd be surprised if they're the ultimate heroes of the books).
posted by codacorolla at 9:11 AM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


The smallfolk are getting tired of fickle rule by lords and ladies who routinely send them to die, and that has been exacerbated by the magical apocalypse that's approaching.

I'm not sure that the show was able to really get across how significant the Brotherhood without Banners is, in this regard.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:16 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm hoping that out of all of the stuff that they can pull from AFFC, the fomenting smallfolk rebellion is what they choose. That might even make the ceaseless Breanne wandering worthwhile, if it can give a lens into the unrest in the countryside.
posted by codacorolla at 9:24 AM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Thankfully AFFC Cersei seems to be save Navelgazer.

Well, maybe not angry, absalom, but then what? Annoyed? Baffled? Just seems to me like a "stop liking what I don't like" thing.
posted by ZeroAmbition at 9:25 AM on January 31, 2015


It is called "a difference of opinion" and it is a thing that humans do.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 AM on January 31, 2015


That opinion was stated as a fact. I don't like that. :P
posted by ZeroAmbition at 10:08 AM on January 31, 2015


I'm not sure that the show was able to really get across how significant the Brotherhood without Banners is, in this regard.

I think the "sparrows" and the newly renascent religious militants are going to be a more critical element, myself.
posted by AdamCSnider at 10:40 AM on January 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


In Braavos, Arya Stark is trained by the guild of assassins known as the Faceless Men, while herself under the influence of a temporary blindness during which she learns to rely on her hearing. While blind, she discovers her ability to telepathically perceive objects seen by cats

GRRM reminds us that the medium is the message. After seeing the world through a cat's-eye view Arya spends the rest of the series as an aloof, self-centered jerk, tormenting small animals, tripping people on the way to the privy in the middle of the night, sitting on top of illuminated manuscripts that maesters are trying to read and napping in sunbeams.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:04 PM on January 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


Re: Anti-monarchism, I'm just re-watching a bunch of Arya scenes because she is my favorite character, and I can't help but feel like even in the TV show with less detail on the background political machinations and stuff...The Hound voicing "Fuck The King!" multiple times might have some meaning here.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:11 AM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bring me one of those chickens.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:12 AM on February 1, 2015


"Maybe I'll pick my teeth with it..."

Hey this show is pretty good!
posted by Drinky Die at 3:18 AM on February 1, 2015


After one of my favorite characters maybe/maybe didn't get killed off in ADWD, I was left with only two characters that are keeping me in the books. If GRRM harms yet another hair on Jaime or Brienne's heads, I'm out.

Okay, I might stick it out if one of them is lost. But both of them? Then I really am out.

Also, I don't think Tyrion is a secret Targ. Jaime and Cersei on the other hand. (They're twins, and twins run in the Targaryen family. Also, Cersei is both mad and lately becoming obsessed with fire...)

I think the person who is going to wind up being in charge will be whoever wants the job least.
posted by rednikki at 11:23 PM on February 1, 2015


The Tyrion secret Targ stuff makes some sense but really I just see him as the most Lannistery of Lannisters. I just can't see it. He doesn't handle himself like a Targ at all. He is the most like Tywin out of the kids, at least for the show version, the books get hazy after a while.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:06 AM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, maybe not angry, absalom, but then what? Annoyed? Baffled? Just seems to me like a "stop liking what I don't like" thing.

The ASOIAF book reading fanbase went full on bitter years ago, a bit understandably, as a result of the delays. They are expecting more fireworks from the books than they can deliver because they have built up so much hype. I have found that talking about good stuff in Crows and Dance gets a hostile reaction from some of that dedicated fanbase at times.

Those books do have flaws, but Cersei's arc in Feast and Theon's in Dance are absolutely highlights of the series. There is some really great stuff there.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:55 AM on February 2, 2015


I agree completely that Theon's arc in Dance is among the best in the entire series. Which just makes me more disappointed with the rest of the book by contrast. I do disagree about Cersei's arc. Not because it was badly written but because I felt it didn't quite work as it should have because of Martin eliminating the planned 5 year gap between books. (Actually a lot of things don't work quite as well as they should have because of this change; Jon's arc, Sam's arc, and more). I would buy Cersei's paranoia bringing down the kingdom in 5 years. I don't particularly buy it bringing down the kingdom in 6 months. The level of incompetence that required is so far beyond anything we were brought to expect from Cersei that it felt wrong.

But like I said, Theon's arc was absolutely beautiful and made me sad for what could have been if Martin had stuck to the characters he already had.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 AM on February 2, 2015


Continuing my rewatch of Arya scenes, I got to the one where she names Jaqen. This scene is obviously why Arya is the best Stark.

Jaqen: A girl lacks honor.
Arya: *the most indifferent shrug ever recorded on camera*

Damn is Maisie Williams good, I hope her career keeps up after the show.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:24 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


In other news: Sophie Turner has landed the role of young Jean Grey in the next X-Men movie. Excellent choice.
posted by homunculus at 12:56 PM on February 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


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