"My psychological time had compressed by a factor of two."

January 31, 2015 6:56 PM

Cabinet Magazine interviews Michel Siffre, whose work helped found the field of human chronobiology. He spent months isolated in a subterranean cave, with no clock, calendar, or sun. He slept and ate only when his body told him to.
posted by artsandsci (47 comments total)

subterranean clock?
posted by LogicalDash at 6:57 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

Cave..

That was really interesting. I have really weird sleep habits and I've always wondered which of them might not be as maladaptive as I think.
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:04 PM on January 31, 2015

2008 interview, before Foer's book on memory came out.
posted by Peach at 7:04 PM on January 31, 2015

I couldn’t tell the difference between these long days and the days that lasted just twenty-four hours.

Aaaaand, that sounds like a horror movie. Cool interview.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:09 PM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

Mod note: Caved the clock, carry on.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

I don't understand how in the 1962 experiment, where he says he was on a 24h cycle (or maybe 24.5h), he lost track of his time. He says he experienced a slowdown by a factor of two and wasn't prepared when they called him to say that the experiment was over. But he was actually keeping a wake-sleep cycle almost identical to what he had all his life. Maybe he just thought he was on a 12h cycle?

Reminds me of an experiment Feigenbaum did while working at Los Alamos (recounted in Gleick's Chaos), trying to maintain a 25 hour cycle.
posted by pjenks at 7:44 PM on January 31, 2015

Oh, the article's by Josh Foer! His book was great.
posted by pjenks at 7:47 PM on January 31, 2015

One thing leapt out at me:

After me, I put a man in a cave for four months, and then a woman for three months.

I really wanted the next line to be:

After I was released from prison, I started seeking consent and ethics approval before the experiments commenced.

I am a good man but I play a bad man on television.
posted by nfalkner at 7:58 PM on January 31, 2015 [28 favorites]

Of course, I then ran into this line that I'd missed on first reading:

Now, there are limitations on researchers. Now you have ethics panels.
posted by nfalkner at 7:59 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

pjenks, it sounds to me like the sleep/wake cycle was the same, but he lost track of how many days it had been? If you're not obsessively counting how many days you've journaled I could easily see losing track.

I'm really curious what effect this had on the woman's menstrual cycles.
posted by Andrhia at 8:01 PM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

Fascinating article and this half shave for science is punk as fuck. I love the idea of someone going on a scientific exploration just by putting his own human body under pressure. Was charmed by his nostalgia for the good ol' days of mad science.
posted by EatTheWeek at 8:03 PM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

Have they tried this on the ISS?
posted by figurant at 8:15 PM on January 31, 2015

oh my god angelfire
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:53 PM on January 31, 2015 [5 favorites]

RIGHT i feel like we've all suddenly become archaeologists
posted by poffin boffin at 9:00 PM on January 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

This was so interesting. I think the hardest part -- maybe just at first? -- would be listening to your body. I feel like when I'm in bed, half the time I'm forcing myself to stay awake and the other half of the time I'm forcing myself to go to sleep. I think mindful eating might be a little easier knowing that you couldn't run out for something if you scarfed down all the pizza.

"I have no theory. I don’t make theories. The forty-eight-hour cycle is a fact. I observed this phenomenon"

I love the idea of just discovering stuff. "I dunno. I found it. You figure it out." And off I go to discover something new!
posted by Room 641-A at 9:02 PM on January 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

The woman "put in a cave" was Veronique Le Guen, who committed suicide not long after. Here is a collection of articles from the LA Times about Veronique's experience and her death.
posted by houseofdanie at 9:11 PM on January 31, 2015 [10 favorites]

I've noticed that if I have no obligations, I naturally end up staying awake over 24 hours, then sleeping 10 or so. Good to know my body is just trying to get on its natural 48 hour time cycle.
posted by Trifling at 9:14 PM on January 31, 2015

It's a fascinating interview, but why understand the subterranean cycle as anything other than a variant environmentally conditioned cycle? He sounds like he thinks of what he's discovering as an "internal clock"
posted by batfish at 9:22 PM on January 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

Siffre's cave-appropriate reading: Plato.

Clap.
posted by thelonius at 9:55 PM on January 31, 2015 [17 favorites]

A fellow named Ted did something similar and wrote about it here

Holy crap, item. I am up to page 7 of that story and I don't yet know how it finishes and I'm not sure I want to, but I will finish it and holy shit it is scary...
posted by maupuia at 9:59 PM on January 31, 2015

You must read about Ted's findings. I'm not sure exactly how they fit with this story, but they are well worth the very harrowing read.

I've noticed that if I have no obligations, I naturally end up staying awake over 24 hours, then sleeping 10 or so.

I have this problem too. Only it is now really a problem. I have a chronic pain disorder, and if I have a repress night; I have significant pain. Which is kind of bullshit. I've always been this way. Now I just get less than productive until I have the catch up sleep, maybe two nights in a row,
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:09 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm really curious what effect this had on the woman's menstrual cycles.

Both the main article and the obit in houseofdanie's LA Times link discuss this. Oddly, they contradict each other, and it looks like obit's report may be a corruption of the original article by someone who read it hastily. The original article says that her cycles stayed pretty much on track, but that she perceived them to have shrunk to 11 days and therefore (mistakenly) didn't trust them as a timekeeping mechanism.
posted by chortly at 10:20 PM on January 31, 2015

Ok. Not wanting to derail, but follow-up to Ted's cave.

Read after the main story!
posted by maupuia at 11:01 PM on January 31, 2015 [11 favorites]

Thanks for the follow-up, maupuia. The story is a masterpiece of dread. I've read it before and just re-read it--it's a near perfect mix of the banal and the sublime. And the story's background is excellent.

I've always thought of Ted's research as still ongoing.

Ted the Caver is an artifact of the early web, and what I really miss about it.
posted by maxwelton at 11:31 PM on January 31, 2015 [6 favorites]

I read this as "Cannabis Magazine" at first, and thought, didn't we already know about time dilation effect and....oh wait.
posted by wuwei at 12:40 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]

it's 2:30 am Feb 1st 2015, I just spent 2 hours reading angelfire, walked into my dark kitchen, the fridge made a noise and I spent 30 sec. staring in terror towards it.

10/10, would explore this thread again!
posted by mannequito at 2:36 AM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]

Yup, Ted the Caver is the old web alright. I miss it too.
posted by glasseyes at 4:20 AM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]

A bit more on Veronique le Guen..Has anyone here tried to find her book, Alone at the Bottom of the Pit? I can find nothing..
posted by bird internet at 4:46 AM on February 1, 2015

It's a fascinating interview, but why understand the subterranean cycle as anything other than a variant environmentally conditioned cycle?

What is this "subterranean cycle" of which you speak?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:49 AM on February 1, 2015

"With no outside stimuli, her body was seeking its own rhythm, defining its own night and day." --the first LA Times article about Le Guen.

I'm with batfish; I think the conceptualization of "the body's own rhythm" is mistaken. Bodies are always somewhere, and human bodies are amazingly adaptable. "The Body Clock" or psychological time that is aimed at in such studies would just be one possible variant among many -- which doesn't make the desire to see what happens under a variety of circumstances wrong.

These kinds of periods of isolation not just from others but from sunlight test the body's ability to function under extreme conditions, but they don't approach anything like a "true" body clock, of which there isn't one.
posted by allthinky at 5:51 AM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]

I mean, there is no variation in the environment, so how can his cycle be environmentally conditioned?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:52 AM on February 1, 2015

It's conditioned by an environment in which variability is minimized.
posted by bird internet at 5:55 AM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]

Of course there is a body clock, defined by the need for sleep. After a certain amount of wakefulness sleep becomes necessary, and after a certain amount of sleep we have had enough and we naturally return to wakefulness. This oscillation between sleep and wakefulness is the very definition of a clock as it's used in engineering. A count of such sleep-wake cycles is a measurement of passing time. We usually keep our clock synchronized to the Earth's day-night cycle but the question of the OP is basically what period it will assume when there is nothing to synchronize to, and the answers turn out to be more interesting than anyone realized.
posted by localroger at 6:32 AM on February 1, 2015 [4 favorites]

A fellow named Ted did something similar and wrote about it here, although he did have help from his friends Brad and Joe.

If you've never read this classic before, you really owe it to yourself to do so. Be warned that you might experience great claustrophobia, though.

(Fun fact: this story is the origin of this widely-circulated image.)
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:44 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]

Has anyone here tried to find her book, Alone at the Bottom of the Pit? I can find nothing.

It might have only been published in French (or at least had only limited printing in English). Also, I wonder if this is her husband. I've seen him on some French nature shows before (ah, the joys of late night insomnia+TV -- I wish the working world could be on a 48 hour cycle).
posted by bluefly at 6:46 AM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]

Finding her book using the french title (seul au fond du gouffre) is far easier. I don't think it's been translated into English.

There's more information on her on French language sites. Here's a quote from the end of her book.

"... mais je dois avouer qu'il m'arrive de vivre des périodes en "complet déphasage psychologique" où je ne sais plus quelles sont mes valeurs, le but de ma vie, etc,. Des moments de "creux" (après 4 mois de trou c'est un peu normal !) qui ne durent guère longtemps, et que l'action efface très vite. Toutefois, je ne peux-moi même rien écrire de définitif sur les suites de l'Expérience car je sais que je vais encore la vivre, sous diverses formes, dans les années à venir. Mais ceci est une autre histoire"...

"...but i must admit that I came to live complete periods of " psychological phase shifting" where I no longer knew what my values were, what was the aim of my life, etc. these "hollow" moment (after four months they became normal) did not last for long and were quickly erased with with actions. I can't write anything definitive about these experiences because I know I'll still live them in many forms for the years to come. however that is another story..."

Apologies for the rough translation, but to me it sounds like she should have neve gone down without a psychological assessment first. Siffre seams like he was poopooing the effects of ethics committees but frankly in these kinds of experiments they're vital.
posted by Braeburn at 6:47 AM on February 1, 2015 [5 favorites]

The Amazon paperback lists for $253.. Your translation is much appreciated, Braeburn!
posted by bird internet at 6:59 AM on February 1, 2015

It's conditioned by an environment in which variability is minimized.

It's also conditioned by an environment in which darkness is the default. I wonder: How different would the results be in an environment of constant sunlight? And how close to real sunlight were the lights he was using in his cave?
posted by clawsoon at 7:08 AM on February 1, 2015

It's also conditioned by an environment in which darkness is the default. I wonder: How different would the results be in an environment of constant sunlight?

"Constant sunlight" is more or less the default in this corner of the world in the summer. Even with a dusk-type light between 1AM and 3AM, you really do need to make it a point to go to bed at the appointed hour no matter how wide awake you feel. I imagine removing timepieces and calendars altogether would lead to an even greater dilation.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:25 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]

There is one respect in which Ted's Angelfire page is definitely not web 1.0 and that's that it served up every form of shitty animated and pop-under ad known to HTML all at the same time.
posted by localroger at 7:43 AM on February 1, 2015

Even with a dusk-type light between 1AM and 3AM, you really do need to make it a point to go to bed at the appointed hour no matter how wide awake you feel.

I wish they'd do away with Daylight Savings Time here; just when I get used to one cycle we switch back to the other.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:09 AM on February 1, 2015 [4 favorites]

Last year I made a plan to prep myself so the "Spring forward" DST transition wasn't so difficult. IIRC I set my alarm 5 minutes earlier for the 12 days before the DST night. Made it a relative breeze. Definitely recommended.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:23 AM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]

Of course there is a body clock...

Actually, it's even more specific. Most animals seem to share neural structures which can be well modelled by "voltage control oscillators operating in phase-locked loops, that is, somewhat erratic analog clocks. In some ways you could think of your whole brain as being made up of clocks which are running in and out of sync.

Aside from sleeping and waking, the regularity of breathing is controlled by what is almost exactly a "body clock."
posted by ennui.bz at 8:29 AM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]

We usually keep our clock synchronized to the Earth's day-night cycle but the question of the OP is basically what period it will assume when there is nothing to synchronize to

The new cycle is calibrated to the cave environment as much as any old cycle is to its environment. Of course there are thresholds of possibility on the normal sleep cycle, but to imply that the cave cycle is some kind of "natural" cycle just seems to be a mistake.
posted by batfish at 10:01 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]

What is there cycling in the cave to which the body clock can synchronize?
posted by localroger at 10:21 AM on February 1, 2015

What is there cycling in the cave to which the body clock can synchronize?

Is it possible that he set up his own, artificial cycle by when and for how long he turned the artificial lights on and off?
posted by Room 641-A at 11:25 AM on February 1, 2015

He set the lights according to what his body told him.

To expand on what ennui.bz said, if you take an electronic PLL and deny it a reference frequency input, it will typically settle into a natural resonance. In some cases there may be more than one of these, and which one it finds will depend on what was going on when it lost its reference, or on how it's been powered up.

Siffre's research seems to suggest that humans have at least two such natural diurnal resonances -- one a bit longer than an Earth day, and one of almost exactly two Earth days. The type of lighting might also determine which of these you settle into, or modify the final period a bit. But there is a bias; nobody, for example, seems to settle into an 18 or 36-hour period. That is interesting; it provides clues to anyone probing the fine workings of our diurnal cycle, and it hints that some alternate cycles might prove useful, either by increasing wakeful hours or accelerating the apparent flow of time.
posted by localroger at 1:05 PM on February 1, 2015 [4 favorites]