Leonard Nimoy's Artist Statement on a set of female nudes (NSFW)
February 1, 2015 4:11 PM Subscribe
The Full Body Project (NSFW) This current body of work is a departure for me. For a number of years, I have been producing images using the female figure...
If you liked that, you might also like: When Irving Penn Shot Real Women (NSFW)
If you liked that, you might also like: When Irving Penn Shot Real Women (NSFW)
And near every any-kind-of-woman is a man (and also sometimes other women) with an opinion.
posted by Miko at 4:29 PM on February 1, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:29 PM on February 1, 2015 [14 favorites]
These women are interested in "fat liberation." They hold jobs in the theater, the film industry and in business—and together they perform in a burlesque presentation called "Fat Bottom Revue." The nature and degree of costuming and nudity in their performances is determined by the venue and the audience, which can range from children’s birthday parties, to stag parties. I wanted these pictures to be more about them. These women are projecting an image that is their own. And one that also stems fro m their own story rather than mineIt seems pretty clear that these women are full participants--perhaps the major moving force--in this project. To reduce the situation to "creepster man reduces women to objects" seems like it denies them any agency whatsoever.
posted by yoink at 4:41 PM on February 1, 2015 [19 favorites]
I don't like the use of "Real Women" to describe any particular subset of women. Skinny women are real women just like heavy women are real women.
posted by Justinian at 4:48 PM on February 1, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:48 PM on February 1, 2015 [19 favorites]
Justinian, in this case, I think it means "not professional models for photography."
posted by Michele in California at 4:49 PM on February 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Michele in California at 4:49 PM on February 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
But the skinny women in our media are frequently not real - they're edited, augmented constructs. Larger women are pretty much excluded from that. I don't think anyone's suggesting that any particular body shape is the 'real real' to the exclusion of others. It's not the greatest of phrases and is perhaps edging into cliche these days, but it does the job.
I'm taking this project as rather a lot of fun, where everyone involved knew what they were doing and wanted it to happen. It has also synthesised for me a new shoo-in winner for the title "Star Trek Episode That Really, Really, Really Should Have Happened".
posted by Devonian at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm taking this project as rather a lot of fun, where everyone involved knew what they were doing and wanted it to happen. It has also synthesised for me a new shoo-in winner for the title "Star Trek Episode That Really, Really, Really Should Have Happened".
posted by Devonian at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
I was thinking that I first saw these photographs here, some years ago, and checking the "Nimoy" tag I can see that there have been FPPs about this as early as 2002. They are great photographs and I'm glad they are getting repeated attention, though I don't know how much is because of the photographs and how much is due to the photographer.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
...and near that opinion, in a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit.
--Vulcan proverb
posted by batfish at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
--Vulcan proverb
posted by batfish at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think at least some of the formation of 'real' in this case is also about the way femininity and identity as a woman is constructed as a reward for adhering to often conflicting guidelines about womanhood. Being too fat means you aren't really a woman - if you were you'd 'take care of yourself'. Now, that particular little jab is made towards men as well, but there is a certain bulky, bearlike masculinity to fatness in men that, while incurring a similar level of fetishism in men, also serves to other them in the wider context of society. To be unfuckable is to stop being a woman, in essence. Real is a reclamation of sorts, of the way we are de-identified by a society that sometimes hates us for our non-comformity.
And that's on top of the constructed imagery we're bombarded with.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:01 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
And that's on top of the constructed imagery we're bombarded with.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:01 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yoink beat me to it. The first few comments here seem awful snarky and kneejerk, for a project that seems really benign. He is clearly promoting fat acceptance, without tearing down slimmer women. He says in his statement that he felt like the women in his previous photos were acting out his themes, and in these pictures he wanted the women to "project an image of their own." Whatever you think of the result (and I like 'em,) the guy seems like he's coming from a good place, here.
Every sensible person adores Nimoy as Spock, but he seems like a genuinely interesting dude beyond that too. His Secret Selves project was kind of beautiful.
I am a little surprised to read that the Fat Bottom Revue gals work kids' birthday parties. Presumably they're not doing their burlesque act... so do they show up as plus-size princesses, or what?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:02 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Every sensible person adores Nimoy as Spock, but he seems like a genuinely interesting dude beyond that too. His Secret Selves project was kind of beautiful.
I am a little surprised to read that the Fat Bottom Revue gals work kids' birthday parties. Presumably they're not doing their burlesque act... so do they show up as plus-size princesses, or what?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:02 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
To be unfuckable is to stop being a woman, in essence.
Not if you're a genetic woman, really. When a woman ages out of conventional fuckability, nobody comes around and says, "That's it for you as a woman. Go buy a bunch of man clothes and be a man now." But as a trans gal, that shit literally happens. If you age out of being passably feminine and fuckable, or you never made it to begin with, people will actually cluck their tongues and tell you that you don't get to be a woman. They will tell you to "give it up," sometimes with pity, sometimes with hate.
Nobody has given me that speech, yet. But I have seen it happen, many, many times, and I know it's only a matter of luck that I haven't heard it yet, and only a matter of time until I do. I already hear that shitty little voice in my head, every time I put on lipstick. Pretty makes everything OK, and if I'm not pretty, I'm not allowed.
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. But I'm having a bad gender day, and that comment hit one of my ouchy spots.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2015 [33 favorites]
Not if you're a genetic woman, really. When a woman ages out of conventional fuckability, nobody comes around and says, "That's it for you as a woman. Go buy a bunch of man clothes and be a man now." But as a trans gal, that shit literally happens. If you age out of being passably feminine and fuckable, or you never made it to begin with, people will actually cluck their tongues and tell you that you don't get to be a woman. They will tell you to "give it up," sometimes with pity, sometimes with hate.
Nobody has given me that speech, yet. But I have seen it happen, many, many times, and I know it's only a matter of luck that I haven't heard it yet, and only a matter of time until I do. I already hear that shitty little voice in my head, every time I put on lipstick. Pretty makes everything OK, and if I'm not pretty, I'm not allowed.
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. But I'm having a bad gender day, and that comment hit one of my ouchy spots.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2015 [33 favorites]
Hang in there, Ursula, you rule!
posted by batfish at 5:15 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by batfish at 5:15 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Leonard must have quite a way with a shoot to have all these (assumed) amateur subjects so free, relaxed and apparently having a good time in front of the camera...
posted by jim in austin at 5:55 PM on February 1, 2015
posted by jim in austin at 5:55 PM on February 1, 2015
there have been FPPs about this as early as 2002.
Fwiw, this specific project seems to be from around 2004-2005, with exhibitions and some media attention in 2005 and a book published in 2007. I cannot find any recent traces of the "Fat Bottom Revue" troupe on the Internet, their website was last updated in 2008 and seems to have turned into a generic "las vegas burlesque" spam blog at some point after that.
posted by effbot at 6:00 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fwiw, this specific project seems to be from around 2004-2005, with exhibitions and some media attention in 2005 and a book published in 2007. I cannot find any recent traces of the "Fat Bottom Revue" troupe on the Internet, their website was last updated in 2008 and seems to have turned into a generic "las vegas burlesque" spam blog at some point after that.
posted by effbot at 6:00 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Two years ago I saw the doc Before You Know It, about elder LGBTs. One of the subjects is an MTF who didn't come out until she was widowed. She is treated very graciously by the community when she presents as a woman; there are scenes at a lgbt retirement home in the PDX area and on an lgbt cruise.
posted by brujita at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
. To reduce the situation to "creepster man reduces women to objects" seems like it denies them any agency whatsoever.
Did anyone actually do that, or is this just something that would hypothetically bother you generally?
I was thinking that I first saw these photographs here, some years ago, and checking the "Nimoy" tag I can see that there have been FPPs about this as early as 2002.
Thanks, Dip Flash. I thought there was something very "this again" about another person on a mission to show us the beauty in nonstandard figures as if it were a brand new idea. It makes much more sense as a decade-ago project than a now project. And yeah, there have been a lot of other photographers in this territory since then. I'm so glad it's not new, because if it were I would kind of just feel sad that he's treading often-crossed ground and presenting it as though it's the first time anyone thought of it.
posted by Miko at 6:26 PM on February 1, 2015
Did anyone actually do that, or is this just something that would hypothetically bother you generally?
I was thinking that I first saw these photographs here, some years ago, and checking the "Nimoy" tag I can see that there have been FPPs about this as early as 2002.
Thanks, Dip Flash. I thought there was something very "this again" about another person on a mission to show us the beauty in nonstandard figures as if it were a brand new idea. It makes much more sense as a decade-ago project than a now project. And yeah, there have been a lot of other photographers in this territory since then. I'm so glad it's not new, because if it were I would kind of just feel sad that he's treading often-crossed ground and presenting it as though it's the first time anyone thought of it.
posted by Miko at 6:26 PM on February 1, 2015
another person on a mission to show us the beauty in nonstandard figures as if it were a brand new idea.
I think this project was just as much about challenging his own previous work - photographing women as models to tell his own story, rather than theirs as subjects - as making a point to anyone else. In that sense, this may be a kind of project which is done again and again by all sorts of artists - and that would be a good thing.
posted by jb at 6:36 PM on February 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think this project was just as much about challenging his own previous work - photographing women as models to tell his own story, rather than theirs as subjects - as making a point to anyone else. In that sense, this may be a kind of project which is done again and again by all sorts of artists - and that would be a good thing.
posted by jb at 6:36 PM on February 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Sure. I just feel like this is not a novel statement. The photos had their moment and may have contributed to de-stigmatizing fat in the representation of females. Thatis a good thing. I'm glad this idea had its moment, but that moment, for me, is starting to recede into a definable past of the oughts and represents the issues of its time. But I'm glad it doesn't represent new thinking. I am starting to feel like this sort of "but these ladies are beautiful" statement (when freshly offered) has become derivative, but also, and more importantly, that it assumes the negative as a starting point, and so I'm not as inclined as I once was to find a project that starts and ends with a change in the photographer's own practice or perceptions as interesting as it once may have been when very few people were doing it.
I think this project was just as much about challenging his own previous work
I think it's reasonable to debate that point when his statement begins, "Who are these women? Why are they in these pictures? What are their lives about? How do they feel about themselves? These are some of the questions I wanted to raise through the images in this collection. "
At least some of the past threads on Nimoy photograhy:
Leonard Nimoy's Photography
Mr Spock's Nudes
Way to make a "boldly go" joke, NPR
posted by Miko at 6:49 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think this project was just as much about challenging his own previous work
I think it's reasonable to debate that point when his statement begins, "Who are these women? Why are they in these pictures? What are their lives about? How do they feel about themselves? These are some of the questions I wanted to raise through the images in this collection. "
At least some of the past threads on Nimoy photograhy:
Leonard Nimoy's Photography
Mr Spock's Nudes
Way to make a "boldly go" joke, NPR
posted by Miko at 6:49 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Set phasers on stunning!
posted by hal9k at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by hal9k at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Love Leonard Nimoy and this project.
Reminds me of Spencer Tunick, kind of; he photographs nudes in groups.
posted by bunderful at 6:53 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reminds me of Spencer Tunick, kind of; he photographs nudes in groups.
posted by bunderful at 6:53 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
another person on a mission to show us the beauty in nonstandard figures as if it were a brand new idea.
That's a really negative spin. There's nothing wrong with anybody showing us the beauty in nonstandard figures, and there's nothing to suggest he thinks this is "brand new." If anything, why not give the guy some credit for using his fame to bring some attention to the beauty of big women, and for apparently trying to give them a platform to express themselves? That was his goal, here.
(Whoops, you posted a reply while I was working on this! Well, I stand by what I just wrote, but I'll add that I don't think Nimoy's changing perspective is front and center in this project, it's not all about him like that. I also think there is still enough stupid fat-phobia out there that these photos will still be kind of shocking and eye-opening to many people. And when you get past the shock of it, they're just lovely, fun photos.)
Thank you, Batfish! In hindsight I feel like my comment was a little self-indulgent. This thread is about Nimoy and his models, not trans stuff and not me.
Brujita, if your comment is in reference to mine, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I wasn't talking about universal disdain.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:58 PM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's a really negative spin. There's nothing wrong with anybody showing us the beauty in nonstandard figures, and there's nothing to suggest he thinks this is "brand new." If anything, why not give the guy some credit for using his fame to bring some attention to the beauty of big women, and for apparently trying to give them a platform to express themselves? That was his goal, here.
(Whoops, you posted a reply while I was working on this! Well, I stand by what I just wrote, but I'll add that I don't think Nimoy's changing perspective is front and center in this project, it's not all about him like that. I also think there is still enough stupid fat-phobia out there that these photos will still be kind of shocking and eye-opening to many people. And when you get past the shock of it, they're just lovely, fun photos.)
Thank you, Batfish! In hindsight I feel like my comment was a little self-indulgent. This thread is about Nimoy and his models, not trans stuff and not me.
Brujita, if your comment is in reference to mine, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I wasn't talking about universal disdain.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:58 PM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
when you get past the shock of it
Shock?
Sure. Clearly, I have an outlier take. I'll bow out. Enjoy, everyone.
posted by Miko at 7:02 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Shock?
Sure. Clearly, I have an outlier take. I'll bow out. Enjoy, everyone.
posted by Miko at 7:02 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
We are sorry to report that Heather MacAllister Founder and Artistic Director of The Original Fat-Bottom Revue died Feb. 13, 2007 of Ovarian Cancer.
Fuck cancer.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:05 PM on February 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Fuck cancer.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:05 PM on February 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Shock?
As I wrote above, "I also think there is still enough stupid fat-phobia out there that these photos will still be kind of shocking and eye-opening to many people." And I was saying that beyond that shock, the pictures were worthwhile. It probably would have been clearer to say beyond the shock, because "once you get past the shock" may have sounded like I thought a shocked reaction was natural somehow.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:07 PM on February 1, 2015
As I wrote above, "I also think there is still enough stupid fat-phobia out there that these photos will still be kind of shocking and eye-opening to many people." And I was saying that beyond that shock, the pictures were worthwhile. It probably would have been clearer to say beyond the shock, because "once you get past the shock" may have sounded like I thought a shocked reaction was natural somehow.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:07 PM on February 1, 2015
You don't think it's shocking in a fat-shaming, objectifying society to photograph fat people in a positive way? It may not be new, but it's rare and it is shocking. You're acting like fat acceptance is old hat instead of an ongoing struggle. This may not be a novel statement to you but it sure is to a hell of a lot of people.
Good for Nimoy to use his fame and his talent this way.
posted by Mavri at 7:12 PM on February 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
Good for Nimoy to use his fame and his talent this way.
posted by Mavri at 7:12 PM on February 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'll be shocked when when we see these images regularly in mainstream advertising or the movies. Pleasantly so.
posted by Miko at 7:16 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 7:16 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Clearly, I have an outlier take.
I'm with you on that outlier take, but part of that is undoubtedly because I've been seeing these and similar images for years (including here). But as you note, even if this particular photo project is a decade old, these kinds of images are still a long way from being mainstream or being something that you see as a matter of course in popular media.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:21 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm with you on that outlier take, but part of that is undoubtedly because I've been seeing these and similar images for years (including here). But as you note, even if this particular photo project is a decade old, these kinds of images are still a long way from being mainstream or being something that you see as a matter of course in popular media.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:21 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ursula: "Not if you're a genetic woman, really. When a woman ages out of conventional fuckability, nobody comes around and says, "That's it for you as a woman. Go buy a bunch of man clothes and be a man now." But as a trans gal, that shit literally happens. If you age out of being passably feminine and fuckable, or you never made it to begin with, people will actually cluck their tongues and tell you that you don't get to be a woman. They will tell you to "give it up," sometimes with pity, sometimes with hate."
It does though, possibly not as much but it does. Women are expected to have short hair, to stop being sexual. Medical professionals ignore the sexual needs of older women - just look at the ramifications of the lack of sex ed in aged care facilities! Or the damage done as women age and doctors don't care, or warn them, about the ways medications change their vaginas and sex lives. The appropriate femaleness for old women is asexual - no, it's not a literal 'that's it for you go buy some jeans' but there is a sense that any expression of femininity damn well better be about nurturing or that social kind of pretty/prissy behaviours because if it is sexual you are an aberration and monstrous.
Like, a small touchstone, but the age at which it become aberrant to have long hair, instead of aberrant to have short hair, has a concrete effect on women's lifestyles and careers, not to mention their social lives. It's not necessarily never or only applied to ciswomen, or transwomen, but I think it's applied differently.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:32 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
It does though, possibly not as much but it does. Women are expected to have short hair, to stop being sexual. Medical professionals ignore the sexual needs of older women - just look at the ramifications of the lack of sex ed in aged care facilities! Or the damage done as women age and doctors don't care, or warn them, about the ways medications change their vaginas and sex lives. The appropriate femaleness for old women is asexual - no, it's not a literal 'that's it for you go buy some jeans' but there is a sense that any expression of femininity damn well better be about nurturing or that social kind of pretty/prissy behaviours because if it is sexual you are an aberration and monstrous.
Like, a small touchstone, but the age at which it become aberrant to have long hair, instead of aberrant to have short hair, has a concrete effect on women's lifestyles and careers, not to mention their social lives. It's not necessarily never or only applied to ciswomen, or transwomen, but I think it's applied differently.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:32 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
When a woman ages out of conventional fuckability, nobody comes around and says, "That's it for you as a woman. Go buy a bunch of man clothes and be a man now."
Nobody does that literally, that's true. But for fat women, you might be surprised how close it gets. If you aren't particularly young and you don't have a plus-model kind of figure where the curves are in all the right places, then there seems to be sort of a point where you go from dressing up being a necessary way to compensate for your fatness to gain social acceptability... to people looking at you weird if you wear dresses or any sort of clothing that isn't designed to mask as much of your body as possible. "Fat women clothes" are socially acceptable to virtually nobody. So for the cohort now in our 30s, I see a lot of women who live in elastic-waist jeans or khakis and enormous t-shirts. PCOS-type symptoms mean a lot of fat women past their early 20s have more weight in the midsection and unacceptable body and facial hair, all of which increase the hurdles that you have to jump through to keep being perceived as A Woman above and beyond just getting the right pronouns.
In that context, stripping everything off amid a world that is constantly telling you to cover up, this sort of thing--I follow some people who post a lot of body-positive nude stuff on Tumblr--reads as really aggressive, in a way that makes me happy that people are doing it. I like the way that MacAllister described this as "revolutionary", because I think in many ways the work of these women enabled the people who are now posting on Tumblr, and every picture that goes up on Tumblr will enable someone else, and the world, however slowly, changes.
posted by Sequence at 7:36 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Nobody does that literally, that's true. But for fat women, you might be surprised how close it gets. If you aren't particularly young and you don't have a plus-model kind of figure where the curves are in all the right places, then there seems to be sort of a point where you go from dressing up being a necessary way to compensate for your fatness to gain social acceptability... to people looking at you weird if you wear dresses or any sort of clothing that isn't designed to mask as much of your body as possible. "Fat women clothes" are socially acceptable to virtually nobody. So for the cohort now in our 30s, I see a lot of women who live in elastic-waist jeans or khakis and enormous t-shirts. PCOS-type symptoms mean a lot of fat women past their early 20s have more weight in the midsection and unacceptable body and facial hair, all of which increase the hurdles that you have to jump through to keep being perceived as A Woman above and beyond just getting the right pronouns.
In that context, stripping everything off amid a world that is constantly telling you to cover up, this sort of thing--I follow some people who post a lot of body-positive nude stuff on Tumblr--reads as really aggressive, in a way that makes me happy that people are doing it. I like the way that MacAllister described this as "revolutionary", because I think in many ways the work of these women enabled the people who are now posting on Tumblr, and every picture that goes up on Tumblr will enable someone else, and the world, however slowly, changes.
posted by Sequence at 7:36 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
We are sorry to report that Heather MacAllister Founder and Artistic Director of The Original Fat-Bottom Revue died Feb. 13, 2007 of Ovarian Cancer.
To be precise, Heather, along with her partner, comedian Kelli Dunham, moved to Portland Oregon, in order to allow Heather the dignity of choosing the method and timing of her own death. Heather did not die (although she suffered terribly) of ovarian cancer. She died in her own bed, surrounded by her chosen family, from a medically-supervised drug combination.
Her yahrtzeit is in exactly two weeks.
posted by Dreidl at 8:05 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
To be precise, Heather, along with her partner, comedian Kelli Dunham, moved to Portland Oregon, in order to allow Heather the dignity of choosing the method and timing of her own death. Heather did not die (although she suffered terribly) of ovarian cancer. She died in her own bed, surrounded by her chosen family, from a medically-supervised drug combination.
Her yahrtzeit is in exactly two weeks.
posted by Dreidl at 8:05 PM on February 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
It is lovely to see these bodies (bodies like mine!) in a way that is not fetishizing, objectifying, or shaming them. Larger bodies are rarely given that courtesy.
posted by torisaur at 8:07 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by torisaur at 8:07 PM on February 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
But I'm having a bad gender day
try not to take it out on poland this time uschi
posted by obiwanwasabi at 8:35 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
try not to take it out on poland this time uschi
posted by obiwanwasabi at 8:35 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tempted though I am to respond to some things here, I've managed to get this far in a Metafilter discussion of gender stuff without it turning into a big bloody donnybrook, and that's a rare joy for me.
try not to take it out on poland this time uschi
Wha..? Perhaps you have me confused with some other Ursula Hitler.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
try not to take it out on poland this time uschi
Wha..? Perhaps you have me confused with some other Ursula Hitler.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like girls to look a certain way. But the girls who look that way tend to like guys who look a certain way and that is pretty much the opposite of what I look like. Which means that eventually I throw away that certain way and start appreciating all kinds of women and once in awhile one of them is open minded too and that's when the fun begins. Everyone is beautiful and everyone is hideous and we're only Alive for a short period.
posted by chaz at 10:20 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by chaz at 10:20 PM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, in terms of "feedback from men" I've been spat at on the street for my appearance, so there's that - but they just called me ugly, so it would be hard to say how much my fatness and my height were factors in that (since I was 15 and 17 the two times it happened, age was certainly not a factor). It's been a long time since I've been spat on, but not long since the last man decided that he needed to tell me that I was ugly and/or fat.
To be unfuckable is to stop being a woman, in essence.
So much this. Not just from men - the women who've tried to throw me out of female changing rooms, who've screamed in my face that I shouldn't be in the ladies loos, obviously believed this too. On a very literal level, I am too unfuckable to be female.
(Please don't take this as saying that I have as hard a time as people who are trans do - I recognise that something as simple as having unquestionable paperwork to back up my gender makes my life a hell of a lot easier.)
posted by Vortisaur at 12:31 AM on February 2, 2015
To be unfuckable is to stop being a woman, in essence.
So much this. Not just from men - the women who've tried to throw me out of female changing rooms, who've screamed in my face that I shouldn't be in the ladies loos, obviously believed this too. On a very literal level, I am too unfuckable to be female.
(Please don't take this as saying that I have as hard a time as people who are trans do - I recognise that something as simple as having unquestionable paperwork to back up my gender makes my life a hell of a lot easier.)
posted by Vortisaur at 12:31 AM on February 2, 2015
Mod note: Comment deleted. Fine to post your personal observations without personal attacks on other members.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:47 AM on February 2, 2015
posted by taz (staff) at 1:47 AM on February 2, 2015
Leonard Nimoy - my ears prick up whenever I hear that name.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 3:06 AM on February 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 3:06 AM on February 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Obesity takes a terrible toll on the body. Our organs and joints weren't really designed to cope with too much extra freight.
On one hand, I think that anything which accords humanity to all and which celebrates diversity is a good thing. On the other hand I have personally seen the toll that extra weight can have on health and on an individual's ability to function comfortably and without pain. So I'm a little ambivalent about celebrating really large bodies, even when the photographs are this good.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:49 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
On one hand, I think that anything which accords humanity to all and which celebrates diversity is a good thing. On the other hand I have personally seen the toll that extra weight can have on health and on an individual's ability to function comfortably and without pain. So I'm a little ambivalent about celebrating really large bodies, even when the photographs are this good.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:49 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Vortisaur, I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through that shit. People are the worst.
But I'm a little puzzled by what you wrote...
the women who've tried to throw me out of female changing rooms, who've screamed in my face that I shouldn't be in the ladies loos, obviously believed this too. On a very literal level, I am too unfuckable to be female.
Did the people who chased you out of changing rooms and ladies' rooms think you were male? Because it's hard for me to picture a circumstance where they would chase another woman out of these places because of her weight or attractiveness. Were they literally like, "You're too fat and ugly to be in this loo"? Because that sounds like complete crazy talk! I'm not denying that this stuff happened to you, I'm just not understanding how it happened.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:53 AM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
But I'm a little puzzled by what you wrote...
the women who've tried to throw me out of female changing rooms, who've screamed in my face that I shouldn't be in the ladies loos, obviously believed this too. On a very literal level, I am too unfuckable to be female.
Did the people who chased you out of changing rooms and ladies' rooms think you were male? Because it's hard for me to picture a circumstance where they would chase another woman out of these places because of her weight or attractiveness. Were they literally like, "You're too fat and ugly to be in this loo"? Because that sounds like complete crazy talk! I'm not denying that this stuff happened to you, I'm just not understanding how it happened.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:53 AM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Leonard must have quite a way with a shoot to have all these (assumed) amateur subjects so free, relaxed and apparently having a good time in front of the camera...
Leonard Nimoy is pretty awesome. He's been a professional photographer for quite a while, specializing in, yes, nudes. I'm sure that, in addition to his own skillset as a photographer, his own experiences as an actor have given him an ability to take such free and relaxed photos.
Portraiture, naked or not, is interesting because so much of it all comes down to being able to deal with your fellow human beings. That's part of why more than a few models, actors, etc. are themselves talented photographers. Drew Carey is a professional sports photographer. Bryan Adams is a professional portrait photographer, working for big time clients. Louis CK and Heidi Klum are highly talented photographers. As was Barry Goldwater! This happens especially often in the "adult" world, e.g. Ariel Piper Fawn, especially when you're talking about projects with some level of care and ambition.
Anyhoo, this is a cool photo series. I think you'd have to be fairly isolated to say that this kind of photo series is trite or tired or whatever. The whole point of the series is not simply that we don't often see these kinds of images in the wild, but also that these images are not normalized. You're not just supposed to see these women and be "shocked". These are beautiful images of the human form. Their bodily shapes are not a gimmick or a mere statement, valid only for a certain limited duration of sociopolitical impact. I mean, it's not like we typically look at any other kind of portraiture and go, "BOOOORING, I'VE ALREADY SEEN PEOPLE BEFORE."
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:15 AM on February 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Leonard Nimoy is pretty awesome. He's been a professional photographer for quite a while, specializing in, yes, nudes. I'm sure that, in addition to his own skillset as a photographer, his own experiences as an actor have given him an ability to take such free and relaxed photos.
Portraiture, naked or not, is interesting because so much of it all comes down to being able to deal with your fellow human beings. That's part of why more than a few models, actors, etc. are themselves talented photographers. Drew Carey is a professional sports photographer. Bryan Adams is a professional portrait photographer, working for big time clients. Louis CK and Heidi Klum are highly talented photographers. As was Barry Goldwater! This happens especially often in the "adult" world, e.g. Ariel Piper Fawn, especially when you're talking about projects with some level of care and ambition.
Anyhoo, this is a cool photo series. I think you'd have to be fairly isolated to say that this kind of photo series is trite or tired or whatever. The whole point of the series is not simply that we don't often see these kinds of images in the wild, but also that these images are not normalized. You're not just supposed to see these women and be "shocked". These are beautiful images of the human form. Their bodily shapes are not a gimmick or a mere statement, valid only for a certain limited duration of sociopolitical impact. I mean, it's not like we typically look at any other kind of portraiture and go, "BOOOORING, I'VE ALREADY SEEN PEOPLE BEFORE."
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:15 AM on February 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ursula Hitler - they think I'm male, which I've put down to a combination of factors of my size and unattractiveness. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
posted by Vortisaur at 6:34 AM on February 2, 2015
posted by Vortisaur at 6:34 AM on February 2, 2015
So I'm a little ambivalent about celebrating really large bodies, even when the photographs are this good.
No offense, but comments like this come awfully close to concern trolling.
Let grown-up people worry about their own health problems, and never use their appearance as an excuse to shame them, even if it seems to imply something alarming to you about their health. Some technically (per BMI, or per a gaze at a photo of them naked, in this case) obese folks are healthier than you think, and some people with BMIs in a more normative range have health issues you can't superficially perceive and make a judgement on, as well.
posted by aught at 7:26 AM on February 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
No offense, but comments like this come awfully close to concern trolling.
Let grown-up people worry about their own health problems, and never use their appearance as an excuse to shame them, even if it seems to imply something alarming to you about their health. Some technically (per BMI, or per a gaze at a photo of them naked, in this case) obese folks are healthier than you think, and some people with BMIs in a more normative range have health issues you can't superficially perceive and make a judgement on, as well.
posted by aught at 7:26 AM on February 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
When a woman ages out of conventional fuckability, nobody comes around and says, "That's it for you as a woman. Go buy a bunch of man clothes and be a man now."
But is it the case that the only way to be told that "it's over for you as a woman!" is to be instructed: "Go be a man now"? There are many, many, many ways that older women are told that "it's all over for you as a woman" - ways that cis women are no longer seen to be "as womanly" as younger women - ways that cis women are masculinized as they age out of being seen as sexually attractive to most men. And there are many ways that even young cis women are told that they are not actually women -- that they aren't feminine enough, that they "look trans" because they somehow do not "pass" as what counts as "womanly" (have you seen some of the hateful comments on the internets about cis women who are supposedly "ugly" because they "look like men" or "must be trans"?)
Cis women have bad gender days too - and sometimes bad gender lifetimes, and are very often told that they are not womanly enough, or a woman at all for all kinds of reasons, but mainly because patriarchy and misogyny are really, really awful.
posted by Gray Skies at 10:03 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
But is it the case that the only way to be told that "it's over for you as a woman!" is to be instructed: "Go be a man now"? There are many, many, many ways that older women are told that "it's all over for you as a woman" - ways that cis women are no longer seen to be "as womanly" as younger women - ways that cis women are masculinized as they age out of being seen as sexually attractive to most men. And there are many ways that even young cis women are told that they are not actually women -- that they aren't feminine enough, that they "look trans" because they somehow do not "pass" as what counts as "womanly" (have you seen some of the hateful comments on the internets about cis women who are supposedly "ugly" because they "look like men" or "must be trans"?)
Cis women have bad gender days too - and sometimes bad gender lifetimes, and are very often told that they are not womanly enough, or a woman at all for all kinds of reasons, but mainly because patriarchy and misogyny are really, really awful.
posted by Gray Skies at 10:03 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Let grown-up people worry about their own health problems
Yeah but health costs are something we as a society pay for. You choose to smoke. People who don't pay for it via taxes (Europe) or higher insurance (Merica), it's the same if you don't choose to take care of your body with reasonable diet and exercise. There's a difference between smashing unrealistic body ideals imposed by the media and normalising unhealthy lifestyles. These photos are firmly in the former, sometimes the rhetoric surrounding the issue veers to the latter.
posted by Damienmce at 10:12 AM on February 2, 2015
Yeah but health costs are something we as a society pay for. You choose to smoke. People who don't pay for it via taxes (Europe) or higher insurance (Merica), it's the same if you don't choose to take care of your body with reasonable diet and exercise. There's a difference between smashing unrealistic body ideals imposed by the media and normalising unhealthy lifestyles. These photos are firmly in the former, sometimes the rhetoric surrounding the issue veers to the latter.
posted by Damienmce at 10:12 AM on February 2, 2015
To those folks saying it's been done before on MeFi: I couldn't find a previous FPP about it, which might just be that I suck at finding things on MeFi. However, I learned of it on MeFi, so I actually was surprised to be unable to find a previous FPP of this. Credit goes to bunderful for posting the link in a recent Ask. I got the other link from the same Ask.
Although I appreciate the BBW angle, because I was once quite large myself, I was much more fascinated by the fact that Mr. Nimoy talked about this being THEIR story instead of HIS. I think the artist perspective in the second piece about the work of Irving Penn has some similarity in terms of just taking these photos with some fascination with these "ordinary" or "normal" ("real") women who were not the essentially artificial constructs that professional fashion models become, especially after adding make-up, photo-retouching, etc.
I also liked what Nimoy said about using previous famous pieces to base his initial photos on and then letting later photos evolve naturally.
As for some of the debate here about health and obesity:
The problem I see with the framing that "obesity is a bad thing because it does bad things to your health" is that it presumes some baseline, standard human with some baseline, standard life who just added a bunch of weight and now they are unhealthy because of that. Aaaand it's just a whole lot more complicated than that.
As just one anecdote that I can think of:
When my dad retired from the army, he put on a lot of weight. My mother was very critical. She didn't like it. But when he had cancer in his late 60's, doctors expected him to die. He lost a third of his weight in the year prior to finally being diagnosed with cancer. When the performed surgery, the cancer was much more extensive than they initially expected but I have been told that it hadn't invaded any other organs. They basically peeled the tumor off of the outside of other organs. I have been told that the fat layer is what caused that to happen.
I once talked to my dad about the fact that his excess weight apparently saved his life. He quietly said something about having always known that someday he would need the weight or something. I don't recall how he framed it. But it was one of those "I was not surprised, I saw it coming -- thought that makes no logical sense" type of statements. He lived, I think, another twenty years after his brush with death from colon cancer. He was in his late 80's when he died.
I really dislike seeing a weight framed as some evil underlying cause of health issues. I think in some cases, excess weight is a symptom of health issues. I know I struggled with my weight for a lot of years and I could not get it under control until I finally got the right diagnosis. Before that, it seemed to not matter what I did. And that's something I have heard a lot from other people who are large: That they have tried everything and can't get the weight off.
But I don't have any reason to believe that it is always a symptom of a health issue. Some ethnicities are just more rotund than others. In some cases, this seems pretty clearly linked to where they live and is pretty clearly an adaptation to a cold environment. I mean, we aren't all judgey about Emperor Penquins being too fat and not sufficiently fashion-model thin. Emperor Penquins, who not only reproduce in the Antarctic and would thus freeze to death if they were too skinny, also go without food for, I think, over two months while reproducing in the Antarctic.
So I hesitate to say that being heavy is always some indicator of some underlying problem. Again, I just think it's way more complicated than that.
posted by Michele in California at 10:43 AM on February 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Although I appreciate the BBW angle, because I was once quite large myself, I was much more fascinated by the fact that Mr. Nimoy talked about this being THEIR story instead of HIS. I think the artist perspective in the second piece about the work of Irving Penn has some similarity in terms of just taking these photos with some fascination with these "ordinary" or "normal" ("real") women who were not the essentially artificial constructs that professional fashion models become, especially after adding make-up, photo-retouching, etc.
I also liked what Nimoy said about using previous famous pieces to base his initial photos on and then letting later photos evolve naturally.
As for some of the debate here about health and obesity:
The problem I see with the framing that "obesity is a bad thing because it does bad things to your health" is that it presumes some baseline, standard human with some baseline, standard life who just added a bunch of weight and now they are unhealthy because of that. Aaaand it's just a whole lot more complicated than that.
As just one anecdote that I can think of:
When my dad retired from the army, he put on a lot of weight. My mother was very critical. She didn't like it. But when he had cancer in his late 60's, doctors expected him to die. He lost a third of his weight in the year prior to finally being diagnosed with cancer. When the performed surgery, the cancer was much more extensive than they initially expected but I have been told that it hadn't invaded any other organs. They basically peeled the tumor off of the outside of other organs. I have been told that the fat layer is what caused that to happen.
I once talked to my dad about the fact that his excess weight apparently saved his life. He quietly said something about having always known that someday he would need the weight or something. I don't recall how he framed it. But it was one of those "I was not surprised, I saw it coming -- thought that makes no logical sense" type of statements. He lived, I think, another twenty years after his brush with death from colon cancer. He was in his late 80's when he died.
I really dislike seeing a weight framed as some evil underlying cause of health issues. I think in some cases, excess weight is a symptom of health issues. I know I struggled with my weight for a lot of years and I could not get it under control until I finally got the right diagnosis. Before that, it seemed to not matter what I did. And that's something I have heard a lot from other people who are large: That they have tried everything and can't get the weight off.
But I don't have any reason to believe that it is always a symptom of a health issue. Some ethnicities are just more rotund than others. In some cases, this seems pretty clearly linked to where they live and is pretty clearly an adaptation to a cold environment. I mean, we aren't all judgey about Emperor Penquins being too fat and not sufficiently fashion-model thin. Emperor Penquins, who not only reproduce in the Antarctic and would thus freeze to death if they were too skinny, also go without food for, I think, over two months while reproducing in the Antarctic.
So I hesitate to say that being heavy is always some indicator of some underlying problem. Again, I just think it's way more complicated than that.
posted by Michele in California at 10:43 AM on February 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
As an old woman, I find the "aging out of fuckability" concept truly offensive, but also amusing. I live in a building with 150 apartments, all with tenants over the age of 62 and I can assure everyone that there's plenty of sex going on around here and lots of happy campers. Many of these old people have had partners to share their bed and their sex for half a lifetime or more; when they're widowed, it's very common for them to take a new partner, and it's not just companionship, though that's the comfort zone of acceptability from the outsider's view. The idea of erasing the very idea of a person's sexuality based on their age or their clothing size is ignorant and just plain wrong.
One day one of the men said something about cleavage and one of the women said it was sad that her cleavage now was nothing more than a bunch of wrinkles. The man responded with, "You'd be surprised how much we like that bunch of wrinkles you have there" and the other men whooped to agree. I've worked in nursing homes where we had trouble keeping certain residents from sneaking into bed with other residents, sometimes by invitation, sometimes not. Fuckability is not something you age out of, unless you're talking about ED, and even that isn't always related to age, and is treatable. As for sex ed for seniors - that's pretty funny - most seniors know the score - some could teach the course.
As for the issue of being a fat woman and therefore "unfuckable" (God, that's an awful term), I call baloney. There are plenty of men who adore curvaceous, overly endowed women; the great majority of fat women have husbands. The kind of man who's turned off by the woman's size isn't the kind of man any woman's looking for anyway - a critic will never stop criticizing and making her life miserable. These women will attract a man who sees more than flesh - but it takes longer for anyone to attract someone like that. It's also interesting to take a long look at the body of any man who's criticizing the woman's body - that can be pretty amusing in itself.
I love this photo shoot - I love the fact that the women are happy and free - love the dancing in the circle one especially. And I love Nimoy for letting us see happy and fat together.
posted by aryma at 1:44 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
One day one of the men said something about cleavage and one of the women said it was sad that her cleavage now was nothing more than a bunch of wrinkles. The man responded with, "You'd be surprised how much we like that bunch of wrinkles you have there" and the other men whooped to agree. I've worked in nursing homes where we had trouble keeping certain residents from sneaking into bed with other residents, sometimes by invitation, sometimes not. Fuckability is not something you age out of, unless you're talking about ED, and even that isn't always related to age, and is treatable. As for sex ed for seniors - that's pretty funny - most seniors know the score - some could teach the course.
As for the issue of being a fat woman and therefore "unfuckable" (God, that's an awful term), I call baloney. There are plenty of men who adore curvaceous, overly endowed women; the great majority of fat women have husbands. The kind of man who's turned off by the woman's size isn't the kind of man any woman's looking for anyway - a critic will never stop criticizing and making her life miserable. These women will attract a man who sees more than flesh - but it takes longer for anyone to attract someone like that. It's also interesting to take a long look at the body of any man who's criticizing the woman's body - that can be pretty amusing in itself.
I love this photo shoot - I love the fact that the women are happy and free - love the dancing in the circle one especially. And I love Nimoy for letting us see happy and fat together.
posted by aryma at 1:44 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
As an old woman, I find the "aging out of fuckability" concept truly offensive, but also amusing.
I got into an exchange about this the other night, and the whole thing was swiftly deleted by the mods. I'm going to copy and paste part of my deleted comment, and I don't think it's inflammatory enough to get deleted.
First, you're really glossing over the word "conventional" there. Conventional, as in mainstream US American culture. Are you going to deny that the US is really weird and squeamish about female sexuality past a certain age? Just look at movies and TV: actresses over 40 are routinely "disappeared" or if they manage to stick around they're shunted into completely sexless roles. Cheap comedies often feature gross-out gags about horny grandmas. I am not saying any of that is good or right, but it's just there in the culture and we can't pretend otherwise.
Both of the people who have come after me about this misinterpreted what I said. I was not saying that older women can't be sexy.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:05 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I got into an exchange about this the other night, and the whole thing was swiftly deleted by the mods. I'm going to copy and paste part of my deleted comment, and I don't think it's inflammatory enough to get deleted.
First, you're really glossing over the word "conventional" there. Conventional, as in mainstream US American culture. Are you going to deny that the US is really weird and squeamish about female sexuality past a certain age? Just look at movies and TV: actresses over 40 are routinely "disappeared" or if they manage to stick around they're shunted into completely sexless roles. Cheap comedies often feature gross-out gags about horny grandmas. I am not saying any of that is good or right, but it's just there in the culture and we can't pretend otherwise.
Both of the people who have come after me about this misinterpreted what I said. I was not saying that older women can't be sexy.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:05 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, my whole point was that society ignores and elides the reality of old people and fat people and disabled people, and all sorts of othered people, having sex. It ignores the reality of it in that we are not served by the medical system properly, or social systems, because we're transgressing the 'norm' by being sexual beings. And it does affect transpeople in fairly specific and unique ways, but it's a feature of mainstream media and conventional media, that non-traditional appearance and gender presentation is not only unsexy but an act that you have engaged in to be unsexual.
You know, since you don't 'look after your body' and all...
(the biggest damage done to my body was by pregnancy, followed closely by medical malpractice due to drs being more concerned with fatty fat fat being less fat than 'hmm what are these strange abdominal pains' and 'wow, you sure do have a twisted spine' and 'that bulge in your knee is fat, oh wait it's a tumor lol'. I have huge suspicions about how baaaaaaad being fat is compared to being thin)
posted by geek anachronism at 4:29 PM on February 2, 2015
You know, since you don't 'look after your body' and all...
(the biggest damage done to my body was by pregnancy, followed closely by medical malpractice due to drs being more concerned with fatty fat fat being less fat than 'hmm what are these strange abdominal pains' and 'wow, you sure do have a twisted spine' and 'that bulge in your knee is fat, oh wait it's a tumor lol'. I have huge suspicions about how baaaaaaad being fat is compared to being thin)
posted by geek anachronism at 4:29 PM on February 2, 2015
four panels: Near every beautiful woman is a man with a camera.
Miko: And near every any-kind-of-woman is a man (and also sometimes other women) with an opinion.And near every woman mentioned on Metafilter is a feminist snark.
It is remotely possible, however, that Mr. Nimoy is celebrating these women in a joyful, artistic, respectful, and fully consensual manner.
Not as much fun as cutting him down without a second thought (or even a first, really), but possible.
Wouldn't it be awful, just awful, if Mr. Nimoy valued his subjects more than you did?
posted by IAmBroom at 4:45 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
When I was younger, I was a good student and "smart" and all that, but I really had internalized a lot of those media messages and imagery to a very harmful degree. I was basically brainwashed. The antidote to that has mostly been consuming less of that sort of media and spending more time talking with real people about their real lives.
So I am kind of feeling like some wires maybe got crossed here. Saying "media says X about old/fat/whatever people" and saying "real old/fat/whatever people do Y" -- that is not a situation where proving one disproves the other or something. Those can both be true, and I believe they both are.
Also, Ursula, sorry you are having a rough time. All of January SUCKED for me. So, my sympathies.
posted by Michele in California at 5:20 PM on February 2, 2015
So I am kind of feeling like some wires maybe got crossed here. Saying "media says X about old/fat/whatever people" and saying "real old/fat/whatever people do Y" -- that is not a situation where proving one disproves the other or something. Those can both be true, and I believe they both are.
Also, Ursula, sorry you are having a rough time. All of January SUCKED for me. So, my sympathies.
posted by Michele in California at 5:20 PM on February 2, 2015
Thanks, Michelle. FWIW, I think Jennifer Tilly, at 56, is still just about the sexiest creature on Earth, next to my 40-something girlfriend. I'm the last person who would ever send the curvy, grown-up ladies to the back of the bus!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:48 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:48 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And near every woman mentioned on Metafilter is a feminist snark.
It's not snark - it's sincere. I'm personally tired of being asked to register and heed the opinions of others about my appearance, whether they think it's fabulous or hideous. No one's appearance requires detractors or defenders. Forgive me if I don't burst into applause when someone publicly declares that another person's body is not necessarily hideous to them. I have become dramatically less interested in the opinions of other people about the appearance of third parties, positive or negative, especially where it comes to women. No matter whether it's celebratory or shaming, leering or spitting, concern trolling or lusting, we must always be evaluating women, it seems.
Not as much fun as cutting him down without a second thought (or even a first, really), but possible.
It's a lifetime's thought, friend.
posted by Miko at 6:44 PM on February 2, 2015
It's not snark - it's sincere. I'm personally tired of being asked to register and heed the opinions of others about my appearance, whether they think it's fabulous or hideous. No one's appearance requires detractors or defenders. Forgive me if I don't burst into applause when someone publicly declares that another person's body is not necessarily hideous to them. I have become dramatically less interested in the opinions of other people about the appearance of third parties, positive or negative, especially where it comes to women. No matter whether it's celebratory or shaming, leering or spitting, concern trolling or lusting, we must always be evaluating women, it seems.
Not as much fun as cutting him down without a second thought (or even a first, really), but possible.
It's a lifetime's thought, friend.
posted by Miko at 6:44 PM on February 2, 2015
No matter whether it's celebratory or shaming, we must always be evaluating, it seems.
It would be one thing if Nimoy had plucked images from elsewhere to make his "case", thereby drafting women into some sort of art piece without their consent, in which they are passively evaluated by Nimoy and others, but this was actually a photo series crafted between himself and the models. The only way to perceive this as mere "evaluation" is to deny and dismiss the agency of the models themselves. It is more complicated than that.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:53 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
It would be one thing if Nimoy had plucked images from elsewhere to make his "case", thereby drafting women into some sort of art piece without their consent, in which they are passively evaluated by Nimoy and others, but this was actually a photo series crafted between himself and the models. The only way to perceive this as mere "evaluation" is to deny and dismiss the agency of the models themselves. It is more complicated than that.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:53 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let's assume I understand what this was all about - I can read, too. It's nearly a decade old. It has had its place.
At this stage, I'm not talking about Nimoy evaluating, or the models self-evaluating. I'm talking about everyone evaluating, the culture of evaluation, our discussion now ,here, the idea that you can diagnose someone's health by viewing them, the very idea of a reclamation project based on evaluation, the idea of a re-evaluation as progressive - everything. I'm thinking about more radical forms of acceptance and what those would look like.
posted by Miko at 7:00 PM on February 2, 2015
At this stage, I'm not talking about Nimoy evaluating, or the models self-evaluating. I'm talking about everyone evaluating, the culture of evaluation, our discussion now ,here, the idea that you can diagnose someone's health by viewing them, the very idea of a reclamation project based on evaluation, the idea of a re-evaluation as progressive - everything. I'm thinking about more radical forms of acceptance and what those would look like.
posted by Miko at 7:00 PM on February 2, 2015
Miko, you are making an uncharacteristically weak case for your points. These ideas and more have already been packed into the work. If you have something substantive to add, then add it, or don't.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:05 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:05 PM on February 2, 2015
What case? What are you talking about? I hope I'm making clear this is my personal reaction, not a "case." These are my thoughts. About this post.
If you have something substantive to add, then add it, or don't.
Bullying. I certainly believe my comments are substantive enough, and we have never applied such a standard, in any case. If we did, it would be a very thin thread. If anyone is sincerely interested in engaging what I'm saying, that's fine with me. If they aren't, I suppose they can make some other kind of comment. This is what we do. No?
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on February 2, 2015
If you have something substantive to add, then add it, or don't.
Bullying. I certainly believe my comments are substantive enough, and we have never applied such a standard, in any case. If we did, it would be a very thin thread. If anyone is sincerely interested in engaging what I'm saying, that's fine with me. If they aren't, I suppose they can make some other kind of comment. This is what we do. No?
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on February 2, 2015
Just because it's a decade, or two or three decades, old doesn't make it any less valuable as I see it. There are as many self-conscious fat people today as there were back when - people who haven't been around to witness Nimoy's work - or any other form of positivity with regard to body size - from ages ago. They struggle today with the same issues that some may be tired of hearing about. I think that's simple aging - the longer we exist the more we see the same issues coming up and going away and then they're back again, meaning only that they've floated to the top again - the issues themselves haven't gone anywhere. Being fat is still frowned upon enough to be a deeply disturbing issue that many have to deal with every day.
I don't think evaluating others by their appearance is useful or fair, other than an initial scan of things like body language and eye contact. But useful or fair or not, it's still done by every single person every day, so when one particular part of a person's appearance - the body shape and size - can be presented as a positive when it's usually considered a negative - that's one tiny step toward more complete acceptance of each other; even tiny steps make a difference.
As for the health business - it's a business; it pays to remember that. What the media is telling us is healthy one year they'll let slide and move onto something else the next year. It's obesity right now but that's just this time - history tells the same story for a multitude of sinful behaviors, most of which have been disproven or at least relegated to the not-so-serious bin. It just goes on and on, but the bottom line is, as always, follow the money; it's a business and there's money to be made with supplements, gym memberships, exercise fashions, thousand-dollar bicycles, weight-loss programs, special foods, medical specialists - including the wonders of television "experts", smack-down images from Wal-Mart used to redirect the "better" people to Target or someplace else, same thing for McDonald's - bad, bad, unhealthy, even if it is a salad - eat at Arby's instead because it's gotta be healthier than McDonalds's. Ach, nonsense to all of it. Tackling obesity is big business indeed.
Having worked for many years in hospitals and nursing homes, I know that it's wiser to be about 20 lbs overweight as a person gets older; it gives you 20 lbs to lose in case you're hospitalized; if you start at the perfect weight and lose 20 lbs it's harder for your body to fight its way back to full good health again. If you start off underweight and lose 20 lbs, you could be in trouble.
That's just my take - but there is plenty of evidence now that obesity isn't as unhealthy as it's made out, that avoiding fats is more likely to cause trouble than to cure it, that sugar substitutes are more treacherous than sugar, that cholesterol is more complicated than we knew and statins to control it can be hazardous in themselves - etc.
posted by aryma at 7:44 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think evaluating others by their appearance is useful or fair, other than an initial scan of things like body language and eye contact. But useful or fair or not, it's still done by every single person every day, so when one particular part of a person's appearance - the body shape and size - can be presented as a positive when it's usually considered a negative - that's one tiny step toward more complete acceptance of each other; even tiny steps make a difference.
As for the health business - it's a business; it pays to remember that. What the media is telling us is healthy one year they'll let slide and move onto something else the next year. It's obesity right now but that's just this time - history tells the same story for a multitude of sinful behaviors, most of which have been disproven or at least relegated to the not-so-serious bin. It just goes on and on, but the bottom line is, as always, follow the money; it's a business and there's money to be made with supplements, gym memberships, exercise fashions, thousand-dollar bicycles, weight-loss programs, special foods, medical specialists - including the wonders of television "experts", smack-down images from Wal-Mart used to redirect the "better" people to Target or someplace else, same thing for McDonald's - bad, bad, unhealthy, even if it is a salad - eat at Arby's instead because it's gotta be healthier than McDonalds's. Ach, nonsense to all of it. Tackling obesity is big business indeed.
Having worked for many years in hospitals and nursing homes, I know that it's wiser to be about 20 lbs overweight as a person gets older; it gives you 20 lbs to lose in case you're hospitalized; if you start at the perfect weight and lose 20 lbs it's harder for your body to fight its way back to full good health again. If you start off underweight and lose 20 lbs, you could be in trouble.
That's just my take - but there is plenty of evidence now that obesity isn't as unhealthy as it's made out, that avoiding fats is more likely to cause trouble than to cure it, that sugar substitutes are more treacherous than sugar, that cholesterol is more complicated than we knew and statins to control it can be hazardous in themselves - etc.
posted by aryma at 7:44 PM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Miko: It's not snark - it's sincere.It can be both (and is). It's snarky. It lacks substance and context.
Miko: I'm personally tired of being asked to register and heed the opinions of others about my appearance, whether they think it's fabulous or hideous. No one's appearance requires detractors or defenders. Forgive me if I don't burst into applause when someone publicly declares that another person's body is not necessarily hideous to them. I have become dramatically less interested in the opinions of other people about the appearance of third parties, positive or negative, especially where it comes to women. No matter whether it's celebratory or shaming, leering or spitting, concern trolling or lusting, we must always be evaluating women, it seems.If you had posted this as your first comment, we could understand your POV.
I can sympathize with this, but that doesn't remove one tiny bit from Mr. Nimoy's art, nor his moral intent. You don't like this post because it reminds you of being judged on looks. Others like this post because it offers them a refreshing view of someone who approves when judging them. And some like this post because they simply adore the beauty in this art (obv, those two groups overlap).
posted by IAmBroom at 7:08 AM on February 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
What case? What are you talking about? I hope I'm making clear this is my personal reaction, not a "case." These are my thoughts. About this post.
Your expressed personal reactions are not above response or criticism, especially since you do seem so adamant that your comments were indeed substantive: either you meant your comments to mean something, or you didn't. I don't care if you're critical, supportive, or whatever of the piece, but it becomes tiring when the snark is so frequent and repetitive, and when there isn't really an attempt to engage with the work, even if it is in a critical fashion. Indeed, the knee-jerk nature of your response falls right into some of the issues which this piece seeks to address: when these women present these bodies, your first instinct was to cast them in a passive role, despite all evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that we typically do not simply assume that women lack agency or thought, or that these women's bodies are merely a gimmick towards some facile sociopolitical end.
The use of nude photography for this project necessarily forces a conflict between subject/object, erotic/"non-erotic", and so on: surfing this wave of antimonies is what the work is, and it is why the work has been able to produce so many reactions from so many people. An overly simplistic reaction not only misses the point of the piece, but it misses why the piece exists in the first place.
Bullying. I certainly believe my comments are substantive enough, and we have never applied such a standard, in any case. If we did, it would be a very thin thread. If anyone is sincerely interested in engaging what I'm saying, that's fine with me. If they aren't, I suppose they can make some other kind of comment. This is what we do. No?
Not all criticism is "bullying". There is no unjust "standard" that anyone is applying. I and others have expressed our personal reactions to your personal reactions. Maybe you like the response, maybe you don't, the world spins madly on.
Besides, people in the thread obviously had no problems bouncing off of the work, expressing their own various thoughts on gender, health, presentation, etc. Let's just return to that. The drive-by snark was what made people roll their eyes. I apologize for furthering the distraction.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:34 AM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Your expressed personal reactions are not above response or criticism, especially since you do seem so adamant that your comments were indeed substantive: either you meant your comments to mean something, or you didn't. I don't care if you're critical, supportive, or whatever of the piece, but it becomes tiring when the snark is so frequent and repetitive, and when there isn't really an attempt to engage with the work, even if it is in a critical fashion. Indeed, the knee-jerk nature of your response falls right into some of the issues which this piece seeks to address: when these women present these bodies, your first instinct was to cast them in a passive role, despite all evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that we typically do not simply assume that women lack agency or thought, or that these women's bodies are merely a gimmick towards some facile sociopolitical end.
The use of nude photography for this project necessarily forces a conflict between subject/object, erotic/"non-erotic", and so on: surfing this wave of antimonies is what the work is, and it is why the work has been able to produce so many reactions from so many people. An overly simplistic reaction not only misses the point of the piece, but it misses why the piece exists in the first place.
Bullying. I certainly believe my comments are substantive enough, and we have never applied such a standard, in any case. If we did, it would be a very thin thread. If anyone is sincerely interested in engaging what I'm saying, that's fine with me. If they aren't, I suppose they can make some other kind of comment. This is what we do. No?
Not all criticism is "bullying". There is no unjust "standard" that anyone is applying. I and others have expressed our personal reactions to your personal reactions. Maybe you like the response, maybe you don't, the world spins madly on.
Besides, people in the thread obviously had no problems bouncing off of the work, expressing their own various thoughts on gender, health, presentation, etc. Let's just return to that. The drive-by snark was what made people roll their eyes. I apologize for furthering the distraction.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:34 AM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm personally tired of being asked to register and heed the opinions of others about my appearance, whether they think it's fabulous or hideous.
I have some sympathy for that feeling. But this post is not about your appearance.
I grew up in a household where being fat was about the most heinous crime you could commit. I married a man who was as critical of my weight and appearance as my mother. I dearly love her, but she grew up in a war zone, and god can that woman put the burn on someone. She's quite talented at it. I then was fortunate enough to get a lot of positive male attention during my divorce at a time when I was quite large.
I have seen plenty of negative posts here complaining about how badly large women are treated and talked about. I thought it would be nice to post one with a lot of positivity to it for those women who, like me, have really been raked over the coals about not being thin enough and maybe haven't yet put it behind them.
So I appreciate that this is pro-BBW. But the thing that most grabbed me was that this piece was not about some man's opinion of women. It was a message from the models themselves. He was their agent in putting their message out there. They used his fame and talents to further their own goals. That seems to be a relatively rare occurrence. I get excited as hell any time I see a good example of it.
I also find the image at the top of the page enormously powerful: Five naked women curled up together in an obviously non-sexual manner and apparently totally comfortable with the situation. It speaks to a level of trust and intimacy in the group that is rarely seen. I sure as hell don't know four other people that I would be completely comfortable curling up with naked.
I'm sorry for whatever is bothering you. But I see no reason why you should drop so many turds in the punch bowl. Other people are obviously getting something positive out of it. If this post isn't your cup of tea, then perhaps you should have just passed it by.
posted by Michele in California at 12:36 PM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have some sympathy for that feeling. But this post is not about your appearance.
I grew up in a household where being fat was about the most heinous crime you could commit. I married a man who was as critical of my weight and appearance as my mother. I dearly love her, but she grew up in a war zone, and god can that woman put the burn on someone. She's quite talented at it. I then was fortunate enough to get a lot of positive male attention during my divorce at a time when I was quite large.
I have seen plenty of negative posts here complaining about how badly large women are treated and talked about. I thought it would be nice to post one with a lot of positivity to it for those women who, like me, have really been raked over the coals about not being thin enough and maybe haven't yet put it behind them.
So I appreciate that this is pro-BBW. But the thing that most grabbed me was that this piece was not about some man's opinion of women. It was a message from the models themselves. He was their agent in putting their message out there. They used his fame and talents to further their own goals. That seems to be a relatively rare occurrence. I get excited as hell any time I see a good example of it.
I also find the image at the top of the page enormously powerful: Five naked women curled up together in an obviously non-sexual manner and apparently totally comfortable with the situation. It speaks to a level of trust and intimacy in the group that is rarely seen. I sure as hell don't know four other people that I would be completely comfortable curling up with naked.
I'm sorry for whatever is bothering you. But I see no reason why you should drop so many turds in the punch bowl. Other people are obviously getting something positive out of it. If this post isn't your cup of tea, then perhaps you should have just passed it by.
posted by Michele in California at 12:36 PM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think there needs to be space for both. Like, I enjoy looking at these images, as a political and personal act, and I can see the importance of them as a political act (thus my posts) but like Miko the idea that this is necessary political action shits me. I don't like the fact that to be perceived as comfortable with my body I need to expose it, to allow it to be consumed and present it as an object.
I don't find all that much empowerment in being a fat chick who enjoys sex, for example (or probably more accurately now a squishy soft woman). There was never any sense, internally, that I shouldn't, even when I hit 100kgs at 35 weeks pregnant. But I do know that for a lot of people, women specifically, there is the idea that you shouldn't or cannot enjoy sex if you're not presentable enough (unless you're a fetishised object).
It's complex, but I think Miko is copping some criticism here that is unwarranted. The 'why' of the empowerment here is important, probably moreso given that the models are active agents here.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:40 PM on February 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't find all that much empowerment in being a fat chick who enjoys sex, for example (or probably more accurately now a squishy soft woman). There was never any sense, internally, that I shouldn't, even when I hit 100kgs at 35 weeks pregnant. But I do know that for a lot of people, women specifically, there is the idea that you shouldn't or cannot enjoy sex if you're not presentable enough (unless you're a fetishised object).
It's complex, but I think Miko is copping some criticism here that is unwarranted. The 'why' of the empowerment here is important, probably moreso given that the models are active agents here.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:40 PM on February 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think there is room for both, even within this thread. As others noted above, some of Miko's points could have been made in a perfectly acceptable manner, without basically threadshitting out the gate. Given how competent she is and how esteemed she is on MetaFilter, I think it is reasonable for people to expect better of her, both because we know she is capable of better and because when someone so esteemed craps on a thread, it has more impact than if some random nobody does the same thing. And that impact hurts other members of the forum.
I don't think any woman is required to expose their body in order to prove anything. I understand the sentiments about feeling really aggravated that stuff like this seems like a necessary political move.
But I didn't post it as something political. I posted it as something really neat that I found on the web that I was excited to read and I wanted to share it. And, to use your phrasing, it shits me that some people seem to feel that if they are really tired of the discussion about women's bodies, that somehow trumps the needs of women who very much want and need to see things like this and talk about them. If they are tired, then they can choose to simply not participate in this particular discussion. No member of MetaFilter is required to read or reply to anything in particular.
I realize it's kind of a touchy subject. In spite of some of the initial replies, I have mostly enjoyed this discussion. I think it mostly went surprisingly well.
I apologize for still being wet behind the ears. I can't help but feel that things would have gone more smoothly had I framed the post a little differently. I found the piece a delightful surprise and I wanted to preserve the surprise for other people, so I intentionally said very little about the piece in the actual post itself. However, I was introduced to the piece in the context of a positive discussion of nude photography generally. So I feel I erred somehow, and can't quite figure out exactly how. (Pointers via memail are welcome, if anyone has any thoughts on that).
Thank you to everyone who has participated.
posted by Michele in California at 9:36 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think any woman is required to expose their body in order to prove anything. I understand the sentiments about feeling really aggravated that stuff like this seems like a necessary political move.
But I didn't post it as something political. I posted it as something really neat that I found on the web that I was excited to read and I wanted to share it. And, to use your phrasing, it shits me that some people seem to feel that if they are really tired of the discussion about women's bodies, that somehow trumps the needs of women who very much want and need to see things like this and talk about them. If they are tired, then they can choose to simply not participate in this particular discussion. No member of MetaFilter is required to read or reply to anything in particular.
I realize it's kind of a touchy subject. In spite of some of the initial replies, I have mostly enjoyed this discussion. I think it mostly went surprisingly well.
I apologize for still being wet behind the ears. I can't help but feel that things would have gone more smoothly had I framed the post a little differently. I found the piece a delightful surprise and I wanted to preserve the surprise for other people, so I intentionally said very little about the piece in the actual post itself. However, I was introduced to the piece in the context of a positive discussion of nude photography generally. So I feel I erred somehow, and can't quite figure out exactly how. (Pointers via memail are welcome, if anyone has any thoughts on that).
Thank you to everyone who has participated.
posted by Michele in California at 9:36 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
My pointer would be: you don't get to control the reception of your post. Like it or not, my body by its sheer existence is political. Pictures of it are political. My brain occupying it, my use of it, is political.
Loving representations of it are political too, in a multitude of ways.
I think the way women's bodies, particularly, are used as representations and examinations of 'beauty' - conformative or not - is something worth discussing in this context. You might want the discussion to be 'yay pretty nudes of fat ladies' but this isn't your discussion to moderate. Miko's point - about the way bodies are commented on and consumed and represented and subject to analysis - seems a totally germane one to make.
Also, just because you, or whoever, have formed these ideas about who is an esteemed member or whatever, does not mean everyone else views it through the same frame. I don't know if Miko and I agree on stuff (I have a vague memory we don't but maybe not?) but that is irrelevant to the discussion here and now. Which Miko can add to, in whatever form they see fit to. You don't get to hold them to some weird imaginary standard, that's just unfair and unnecessary.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:26 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Loving representations of it are political too, in a multitude of ways.
I think the way women's bodies, particularly, are used as representations and examinations of 'beauty' - conformative or not - is something worth discussing in this context. You might want the discussion to be 'yay pretty nudes of fat ladies' but this isn't your discussion to moderate. Miko's point - about the way bodies are commented on and consumed and represented and subject to analysis - seems a totally germane one to make.
Also, just because you, or whoever, have formed these ideas about who is an esteemed member or whatever, does not mean everyone else views it through the same frame. I don't know if Miko and I agree on stuff (I have a vague memory we don't but maybe not?) but that is irrelevant to the discussion here and now. Which Miko can add to, in whatever form they see fit to. You don't get to hold them to some weird imaginary standard, that's just unfair and unnecessary.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:26 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know that I don't get to control where this discussion goes, and that's not what I was trying to do. Nor was I trying to hold Miko in particular to some standard, weird or otherwise. Other people gave pushback to her long before I said anything to her. My comment about the esteem with which she seems to be held on MetaFilter was intended as an observation as to part of why she got as much pushback as she did. I certainly didn't say it in order to give her flack.
You might want the discussion to be 'yay pretty nudes of fat ladies' but this isn't your discussion to moderate.
One last time, because I think I have said this at least twice already: the BBW angle was not my primary reason for posting it.
I think the way women's bodies, particularly, are used as representations and examinations of 'beauty' - conformative or not - is something worth discussing in this context.... Miko's point - about the way bodies are commented on and consumed and represented and subject to analysis - seems a totally germane one to make.
I and others have already stated Miko had a point and that plenty of people agree with it. That wasn't what people here were giving her pushback over. You (and anyone else) are more than welcome to talk about such things. In fact, that would be more in line with this guideline:
Note: Help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site.
posted by Michele in California at 3:05 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might want the discussion to be 'yay pretty nudes of fat ladies' but this isn't your discussion to moderate.
One last time, because I think I have said this at least twice already: the BBW angle was not my primary reason for posting it.
I think the way women's bodies, particularly, are used as representations and examinations of 'beauty' - conformative or not - is something worth discussing in this context.... Miko's point - about the way bodies are commented on and consumed and represented and subject to analysis - seems a totally germane one to make.
I and others have already stated Miko had a point and that plenty of people agree with it. That wasn't what people here were giving her pushback over. You (and anyone else) are more than welcome to talk about such things. In fact, that would be more in line with this guideline:
Note: Help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site.
posted by Michele in California at 3:05 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally, I enjoyed the post and most of the thread - the positive points, anyway. There's always a negative, always a downer or two, but the focus on fat women being happy and sassy was nice. Being fat doesn't stop us from being happy and sassy but negativity stings.
The theory is that every woman's body is her own and it's up to her what's done with it - as in who she allows to touch it, how much of it she allows to be exposed, whether she chooses to accept stretch marks by giving birth, whether she tattoos it, tans it, spas it, tones it - or not, whether she chooses to discontinue an unwanted pregnancy - and whether she reveals it naked for all the world to see - it's all up to the person who owns the body.
I think this was one of those posts that one should just pass up if it seems tiresome, even while others are enjoying it. I didn't even know Nimoy was a photographer, and I now know that I like his work and especially like the joy expressed by the women behind the lens.
posted by aryma at 4:10 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
The theory is that every woman's body is her own and it's up to her what's done with it - as in who she allows to touch it, how much of it she allows to be exposed, whether she chooses to accept stretch marks by giving birth, whether she tattoos it, tans it, spas it, tones it - or not, whether she chooses to discontinue an unwanted pregnancy - and whether she reveals it naked for all the world to see - it's all up to the person who owns the body.
I think this was one of those posts that one should just pass up if it seems tiresome, even while others are enjoying it. I didn't even know Nimoy was a photographer, and I now know that I like his work and especially like the joy expressed by the women behind the lens.
posted by aryma at 4:10 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by four panels at 4:18 PM on February 1, 2015 [2 favorites]