Nothing about me was ever gross, come to think of it
February 11, 2015 1:00 PM   Subscribe

 
JAMIE: Remind us what your relationship with Matt was like?

YAEL: Oh, we had so much fun. We went out every weekend and partied and did drugs. Like, actual drugs—the ones Hallie is much too boring ever to do. Then we had very athletic sex that he still thinks about frequently.

JAMIE: Great.

YAEL: I had orgasms really easily.

JAMIE: O.K.

YAEL: Like sometimes without even trying.


Ouch.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:10 PM on February 11, 2015


i dated someone who tortured themselves in this way, except the genders were swapped - and it was hell for both of us. i found that incredibly hard to read.
posted by nadawi at 1:21 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


I have always had an endless supply of cute underwear, none of which has ever had any weird stains or gotten saggy in the butt.

Haaaaahahahahahahaha
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:21 PM on February 11, 2015 [11 favorites]


Meanwhile, Matt's thoughts were mainly of his penis and smartphone.
posted by Invisible Green Time-Lapse Peloton at 1:24 PM on February 11, 2015 [28 favorites]


YAEL: Like sometimes without even trying.
That sounds inconvenient.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:25 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


That's the most Barthelme-ish thing I've read in the New Yorker in a very very long time. In a good way.
posted by jessamyn at 1:27 PM on February 11, 2015 [16 favorites]


octobersurprise - i knew a woman with that issue, and yeah, it was challenging to live with.
posted by nadawi at 1:27 PM on February 11, 2015


Why are they having this meeting? Is this a for-profit company of some kind, or a community improvement group? Doesn't the airfare get expensive to fly in just to meet in one room every month? It seems like this would be better conducted through Skype, to be honest.
posted by Greg Nog at 1:29 PM on February 11, 2015 [12 favorites]


we who are
your closest friends
feel the time
has come to tell you
that every Thursday
we have been meeting
as a group
to devise ways
to keep you
in perpetual uncertainty
frustration
discontent and
torture
by neither loving you
as much as you want
nor cutting you adrift

your analyst is
in on it
plus your boyfriend
and your ex-husband
and we have pledged
to disappoint you
as long as you need us

in announcing our
association
we realize we have
placed in your hands
a possible antidote
against uncertainty
indeed against ourselves
but since our Thursday nights
have brought us
to a community of purpose
rare in itself
with you as
the natural center
we feel hopeful you
will continue to make
unreasonable
demands for affection
if not as a consequence
of your
disastrous personality

then for the good of the collective

- Phillip Lopate (1943)
posted by zarq at 1:31 PM on February 11, 2015 [186 favorites]


Doesn't the airfare get expensive to fly in just to meet in one room every month?

According to the article, they all live in one person's head, so travel shouldn't be a problem. Unless it's a GINORMOUS head.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:31 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I always thought the default was the other way around. Like "I bet my ex and his new girl laugh about my lack of grooming and my period knickers and my inability to cook anything other than pasta bake, right after they have amazing sex and before her shift at the animal shelter."
posted by billiebee at 1:32 PM on February 11, 2015 [26 favorites]


It seems like this would be better conducted through Skype, to be honest.

Can't high-five through skype.
posted by zarq at 1:32 PM on February 11, 2015


This person needs better things to do with her imagination.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:34 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


This person needs better things to do with her imagination.

You know, it's crazy, but I just don't think the person who made her up agrees.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:39 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


That's the most Barthelme-ish thing I've read in the New Yorker in a very very long time.

Does that make "The Toast" Bathelme-ish? Because it seemed like it was inspired by The Toast...

...before her shift at the animal shelter.

also, do women think that being involved in saintly humanitarian endeavors make you more attractive to potential partners? that's not something i've ever thought about before.
posted by ennui.bz at 1:40 PM on February 11, 2015


also, do women think that being involved in saintly humanitarian endeavors make you more attractive to potential partners? that's not something i've ever thought about before.

Knowing someone has a good heart is a selling point to some men.
posted by zarq at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


also, do women think that being involved in saintly humanitarian endeavors make you more attractive to potential partners?

Depressingly, yes.
posted by Kitteh at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


You know, it's crazy, but I just don't think the person who made her up agrees.

I took it to mean the actual author.
posted by batfish at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


This reminds me of a joke:

Android fans think iOS users are a bunch of elitist snobs willing to overpay for inferior phones to look cool.

Know what iPhone fans think of Android users?

We don't.


Seriously, I can't think of the last time I spent any significant mental energy thinking of an ex, and when I do it's usually just wondering how she's doing now, and wishing her the best.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2015 [18 favorites]


I have a male friend who used to torture himself with this sort of thinking about one of his girlfriend's exes, who he seemed to think was some sort of combination of John Holmes and Albert Einstein. I had to keep asking him "If this guy was so great, why did *she* break up with *him*?" for a long time before he finally got over it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:43 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


There was a moment in my life when 3 exes (of varying intensity IYKWIMAITYD) were sharing a studio workspace (all Architecture students).
What went through my head was considerably less twee and cute than this article. More like Disney evil-queen laughter.
posted by signal at 1:46 PM on February 11, 2015 [7 favorites]


I took it to mean the actual author.

And I take the piece to mean that the author, speaking through her autobiographical persona as represented by the figments of her imagination, thinks this is a great use of her time and imaginative power. It's just obvious.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:49 PM on February 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


do women think that being involved in saintly humanitarian endeavors make you more attractive to potential partners?

I think it's more in the same vein as the article - not that he thinks it makes her better than us but that we think it. He probably doesn't give a fuck if she routinely hits kittens with a hammer as long as she gives better blow jobs. oh god I bet she gives better blow jobs
posted by billiebee at 1:53 PM on February 11, 2015 [28 favorites]


also, do women think that being involved in saintly humanitarian endeavors make you more attractive to potential partners? that's not something i've ever thought about before.

Saintly humanitarian endeavors - certain kinds of saintly humanitarian endeavors, not being part of ISM, for instance, or getting arrested while distributing food with Food Not Bombs, or protesting as part of ACT-UP - are a way of performing an idealized [white] femininity. The endeavors should be something that somehow suggests frailty and sensibility - volunteering with "the homeless" (but not doing anything scary or physically dirty), saving kittens, tutoring disadvantaged youth, etc. It suggests not only that you are unselfish (important, because what is worse than a woman who puts herself first?) but also that you are good at nurturing, are non-confrontational and have a feeling heart. (But not too much of a feeling heart.) Also that you're part of the bourgeois consensus about the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor, people of color, animals, ill, etc. It's a way of demonstrating that you have the right kind of femininity and the organizational and logistical skills to display it.
posted by Frowner at 1:54 PM on February 11, 2015 [89 favorites]


Men appear to think that women are attracted to generous men, too.
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


And I take the piece to mean that the author, speaking through her autobiographical persona as represented by the figments of her imagination...

On one way of parsing the comment you were responding to-- "this person needs better things to do with her imagination"--the subject is the author herself, who was not made up by anybody, even herself. Anyway, I agree with signal's comment. Pretty toothless stuff...
posted by batfish at 1:59 PM on February 11, 2015


Hallie needs to look into ad muters.
posted by michaelh at 2:00 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


not being part of ISM, for instance, or getting arrested while distributing food with Food Not Bombs, or protesting as part of ACT-UP

Surely you know that there are more than a few dudes excited by any of those things - also that this does not reliably indicate that they aren't dirtbags.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Men appear to think that women are attracted to generous men, too.

Well, I get that putting on a performance of generosity/empathy/caring in front of a potential partner might be worthwhile... especially if you are a robot or alien attempting to assimilate. But, the way (and I may, gosh, be overthinking this) it came out in the link made it seem like the author was thinking about 'working at the animal shelter' as a killer qualification on the putative ex's relationship resume. Even in love, you think about everything like you were climbing some corporate relationship hierarchy chart.

and I don't think that was what the author was intending...
posted by ennui.bz at 2:10 PM on February 11, 2015


Surely you know that there are more than a few dudes excited by any of those things - also that this does not reliably indicate that they aren't dirtbags.

Well, yes, but not as performances of successful, appropriate femininity. The ins and outs of misogyny on the radical left are a bit different from the "building my resume for OKCupid" straight-women thing.
posted by Frowner at 2:12 PM on February 11, 2015 [12 favorites]


On the flip side, when I imagine all my ex girlfriends getting together I can only think of them all laboring over my many flaws and foibles and then I have a panic attack and thank god I've lived in enough places that they probably don't run into one another.

But then sometimes I see them commenting on each other's facebook posts and have a little panic attack again.
posted by dis_integration at 2:13 PM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Despite all the judgy hyperliteral interpretations this piece has apparently inspired, I thought it was hilarious. You all do know it's meant to be humorous, right? Is this more of that stuff where men sometimes have a hard time telling when women are joking?
posted by dialetheia at 2:15 PM on February 11, 2015 [69 favorites]


Heh. The only real reminder I get of exes is when I still have some of their stuff despite not seeing them for over a decade. (Fucked the drummer in my room and stole my Hawaiian shirt, Anna? Guess you're never getting this sweet Eddie Bauer thermos back!)
posted by klangklangston at 2:17 PM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


Of my serious exes, one's MIA, one's gay, two are married, and one is married and nuts, so I imagine the scene would be a lot different.
posted by jonmc at 2:18 PM on February 11, 2015


i totally get that it's funny - but, too close to home as humor can be sometimes. i don't think that suddenly makes me unable to tell when other women are joking...
posted by nadawi at 2:19 PM on February 11, 2015


My most recent ex (20+ yrs ago) was head cheerleader and homecoming queen in high school, and then again at the large state school where she got her B. A., and was solicited for photo spreads by Playboy then and a few more times subsequently, up until her late 30s -- and the single time my partner has ever shown a flash of jealousy was during a conversation in which she mistakenly thought I had implied that my ex was a better knitter than she is.

But my ex, who is my best friend other than my partner, has acted a tiny bit jealous of my partner the whole time.
posted by jamjam at 2:22 PM on February 11, 2015 [37 favorites]


Now who wants to write a benign, friendly post on Matt’s Facebook wall for her to obsess over for two days straight?

*snerk*

Shouts and Murmurs is uneven -- a recent entry seemed ripped straight from an Amy Shumer sketch -- but come on, you have never, ever had a fleeting moment of envy when your partner's ex shows up on Facebook looking terrific and doing something more exciting than you are? No? You've never left a benign and cheerful comment with a secret sense of HA HA LET THEM WONDER? I like this joke because it gets at the act of performing at being a better person because of the audiences who might (hopefully) overhear.

OTOH, when up to my elbows in poultry viscera or holding a piglet for castration, I will pointedly say to my husband, "You know that NONE of your ex-girlfriends are doing this right now, right?"
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:23 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


more of that stuff where men sometimes have a hard time telling when women are joking?

I get that it's a joke. Especially how they all have nice hair. There was a rim shot with every one of those. I just think it doesn't succeed because it doesn't actually go for it with the vulnerability. It's like a typed out Cathy cartoon.
posted by batfish at 2:27 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does that make "The Toast" Bathelme-ish? Because it seemed like it was inspired by The Toast...

I'm not sure because I don't read The Toast but Barthelme used to write for the New Yorker quite a bit before everyone wasn't all tired of postmodernism and there was frequently a theme of girlfriends or wives and/or exes being the supporting characters. This story of his in particular reminded me of this piece. Rebecca Lizard is the main character. Her skin is a little bit green.
"You're late," Rebecca said. "Where were you?"
"I had a drink with Stephanie."
"Why did you have a drink with Stephanie?"
"She stopped by my office and said let's have a drink."
"Where did you go?"
"The Barclay."
"How is Stephanie?"
"She's fine."
"Why did you have to have a drink with Stephanie?"
"I was ready for a drink."
"Stephanie doesn't have a slight greenishness, is that it? Nice, pink Stephanie?"
Hilda rose and put an excellent C & W album on the record player. It was David Rogers's "Farewell to the Ryman," Atlantic SD 7283. It contains such favorites as "Blue Moon of Kentucky," "Great Speckled Bird," "I'm Movin' On," and "Walking the Floor Over You." Many great Nashville personnel appear on this record.
"Pinkness is not everything," Hilda said. "And Stephanie is a little bit boring. You know that." "Not so boring that you don't go out for drinks with her."
"I am not interested in Stephanie."
"As I was leaving the courthouse," Rebecca said, "a man unzipped my zipper."
David Rogers was singing "Oh please release me, let me go."
"What were you wearing?"
"What I'm wearing now."
"So he had good taste," Hilda said, "for a creep." She hugged Rebecca, on the sofa. "I love you," she said.
"Screw that," Rebecca said plainly, and pushed Hilda away. "Go hang out with Stephanie Sasser."
Of course the catch is that these are two women talking, so not quite the same, but a similar voice, to me.
I thought this was funny but mostly because I could see me being one of these women in a weird way, and yet still me and the ex were totally wrong for each other. "Remember when she'd sit under a tree and read Barthelme to him...? Yeah and remember how she couldn't sleep AT ALL until you'd covered over every LED in the entire house? Good times."
posted by jessamyn at 2:53 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


Arab Strap, I Work In A Saloon
posted by Leon at 3:02 PM on February 11, 2015


come on, you have never, ever had a fleeting moment of envy when your partner's ex shows up on Facebook looking terrific and doing something more exciting than you are

Never! This is where being arrogant pays off!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:07 PM on February 11, 2015 [32 favorites]


Pretty sure none of my serious exes would want to speak with each other if they ever met, even if they didn't realize they had me in common. That goes for my current S.O., too, if we were ever to break up.

Not sure what that says.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:08 PM on February 11, 2015


come on, you have never, ever had a fleeting moment of envy when your partner's ex shows up on Facebook looking terrific and doing something more exciting than you are

I can only think of one situation where I even knew who my partner's ex was. And in that case no, I knew both of them far too well as individuals to do any unnecessary torturous speculating.

My imaginary torture group are all of my exes' CURRENT partners. Who are thinner with better taste in music and awesome hair and tiny little perky boobs. And wear flannel really, really well.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:20 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


MonkeyToes: When up to my elbows in poultry viscera or holding a piglet for castration, I will pointedly say to my husband, "You know that NONE of your ex-girlfriends are doing this right now, right?"

I'm not sure how I feel about this little vignette, but I would like to subscribe to your newsletter...
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:24 PM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


Looking up old exes on the internet is supposed to always be a bad idea (and in my experience, almost always is - I'm looking at *you*, ex who hooked up with the gay lady you worked with and have been married to forever and have lovely daughters and a beautiful life in the country, damn your eyes), but the other day I found some videos on YouTube of another, much mourned, ex, and his wife. And after years and years of my narrative about him being all about how beautiful he was, how wonderful blah blah, after watching the video I had the wonderful sensation of something like relief. "Well!" I said, "actually, he's kind of a dick."
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 3:26 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


I feel SO SORRY for whoever might have the misfortune of dating my LT ex right now. That poor woman has no idea what kind of person he is. Hopefully she's smarter and less naive than I was. Hopefully she knows she can do better, and uses birth control religiously. God I hope she has enough self esteem to get out when necessary.

I'll light a candle for her. That poor woman, if she exists.
posted by discopolo at 3:36 PM on February 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


There was a while many years ago where 2 of my exes were roommates, and I have basically constructed some kind of elaborate mental block about the whole thing, so I'm quite sure they never talked about me at all.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 3:39 PM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Knowing someone has a good heart is a selling point to some men.

But does it really mean they have a good heart? Or does it mean they're just looking for a social status symbol? Or does it mean they have quaintly antiquated ideas about whether the world needs their privileged help?

{/} but not really but I don't even know anymore
posted by weston at 3:39 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I also feel awful for the exgf of the current guy I'm seeing. She clearly loved him and worked so hard at their relationship until she couldn't take it anymore and left him one day while he was at work (saw lots of self help relationship books stacked in the corner of his bedroom that were hers). She was with him for 3 yrs. poor girl. It's awful to be in love with someone that you're just trying to unilaterally save a relationship while he's just unsure until all you can do is leave. I adore this guy and love him in my own way, but this ex girlfriend clearly loved him more than I can/could.
posted by discopolo at 3:50 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


There was a while many years ago where 2 of my exes were roommates, and I have basically constructed some kind of elaborate mental block about the whole thing, so I'm quite sure they never talked about me at all.

One of the awesome things about being gay is that when 2 of my exes became roommates, they invited me and my current bf over for Thanksgiving dinner and we all had a nice time and watched silly TV shows.

Sorry, no punch line.
posted by psoas at 4:11 PM on February 11, 2015 [9 favorites]


I had the amazing experience of returning to my college town for a friend's graduation not long after moving on myself. I got fairly wasted, walked out onto the back patio and found a table with 5 of my exes sitting at it. I stopped dead, like, hard full shut-down-the-engines stopped. While my brain was chanting, "OH FUCK" over and over again, I attempted my best Han Solo grin, and asked, "Well hello, what could you all possibly be chatting about?" Uproarious laughter ensued. They were all very sweet about it and many drinks were consumed.

In a perfect world that would have led to crazy sex, but alas, no.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:17 PM on February 11, 2015 [20 favorites]



In a perfect world that would have led to crazy sex, but alas, no.


Having sex with women who are laughing at you after commiserating about your inadequacies? I'm not judging, I know that some guys apparently like being humiliated during sex... but by 5 women who don't like you all at once?
posted by discopolo at 4:21 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


Having sex with women who are laughing at you after commiserating about your inadequacies? I'm not judging, I know some guys apparently like being humiliated during sex but by 5 women at once?

I'm ok with the mental image this evokes.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:23 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


I was also aiming for one, maybe two women, but hey let's shoot for five.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:24 PM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Now who wants to write a benign, friendly post on Matt’s Facebook wall for her to obsess over for two days straight?

Ok so to preface this isn't some "men can't tell when women are joking" thing. But when I read that, I genuinely scrolled to the top to see if this was written by a dude. Because holy shit does that come off as some "lol women are so silky and worry about such ridiculous irrational things women amirite?" type awful standup routine crap.

It's sort of a "the failure mode of satire is assholing" thing, but that it's kind of indistinguishable from reddity women r dum dude humor.

Even if Im not the target audience, it left a weird taste in my mouth. Like if it works for you maybe it's fine, but it weirded me out.
posted by emptythought at 4:32 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is nothing. I heard about one guy, when he started dating this girl all of her old exes challenged him one by one to single combat.
posted by ckape at 4:39 PM on February 11, 2015 [19 favorites]


But when I read that, I genuinely scrolled to the top to see if this was written by a dude.

I dunno, I didn't love it but I thought it was pretty clearly from the POV of a woman who is very knowingly saying "Get a load of neurotic I [or a leetle-bit exaggerated version of 'I'] am about relationships! Feels good to laugh about it though!"
posted by psoas at 4:42 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


One of the awesome things about being gay is that when 2 of my exes became roommates, they invited me and my current bf over for Thanksgiving dinner and we all had a nice time and watched silly TV shows.

One of the annoying things about being gay is when you look up your ex on Facebook and he's now dating someone way hotter than you and so you get a nice little side dish of unrequited attraction along with the main dish of self-flagellation.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:44 PM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


I was also aiming for one, maybe two women, but hey let's shoot for five.

Unless this was a bukkake party you were attending, maybe phrase differently?
posted by a halcyon day at 4:48 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


"But does it really mean they have a good heart?"

you should be able to perform 30 minutes of moderate aerobic exercise without gasping or slurring words
posted by klangklangston at 4:52 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


That was very funny.

Seriously, I can't think of the last time I spent any significant mental energy thinking of an ex, and when I do it's usually just wondering how she's doing now, and wishing her the best.


There's a line in a movie--I think it was Ethan Hawke in Reality Bites--who says something how being dumped is painful if you've ever dumped someone yourself, because you know just how little you care about the dumpee's feelings about it. You just...don't care anymore. But I agree with this above sentiment; my ex-girlfriends are nice people*and I mainly think about my own failures and shortcomings in the relationship rather than theirs.

*All nice except for one ex-girlfriend who I was COMPLETELY wrong about and who turned out to be--or devolved into while I was dating her--a genuinely bad person. I can think of plenty of examples of friends and quasi-friends in which our friendships quietly disintegrated or exploded dramatically, but not so with girlfriends. Just that one b-....person.
posted by zardoz at 5:02 PM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


> That's the most Barthelme-ish thing I've read in the New Yorker in a very very long time. In a good way.

Glad someone else thought so. I thought that too but then wondered if it was just the brain damage talking. (It just won't shut up.)
posted by jfuller at 5:03 PM on February 11, 2015


I loved this and find it really surprising that more people don't identify with the early insecurity of a relationship.
posted by whoaali at 5:11 PM on February 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


There's a line in a movie--I think it was Ethan Hawke in Reality Bites--who says something how being dumped is painful if you've ever dumped someone yourself, because you know just how little you care about the dumpee's feelings about it. You just...don't care anymore.

Man, I feel exactly the opposite! I hate breaking up with people. I've been unceremoniously dumped and even gotten just plain radio silence, and those were way easier to deal with than having to make somebody upset, uncomfortable, and self-conscious at the same time as you turn into the one person who definitely can't comfort them.
posted by en forme de poire at 5:13 PM on February 11, 2015 [15 favorites]


*highfives no one*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:22 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Worse still: it can happen that on the other hand I am loved by someone I do not love; now, far from helping me (by the gratification it implies or the diversion it might constitute), this situation is painful to me: I see myself in the other who loves without being loved, I recognize in him the very gestures of my own unhappiness, but this time it is I myself who am the active agent of this unhappiness: I experience myself both as victim and as executioner." -- Roland Barthes (A Lover's Discourse; Identifications).

To be aware of someone unwanted who loves you creates both a palpable accusation and the immediacy of one's own rejection elsewhere. And this dual awareness is what you create if you try to go back.
posted by lathrop at 6:04 PM on February 11, 2015 [12 favorites]


Mr. Palmcorder is pretty great with my exes. We spend the winter holidays with one of them every year, and he's Facebook buddies with another. And those two-- lord, if we lived within 300 miles, they'd be the bromance of the century. They'd swap military history books, jam on their drums, and companionably watch every single NCAA game of any kind together, chuckling merrily, satisfied as Hobbits, their lungs full of the smoke top-grade weed.

That ex and i were fairly good for each other for a while, but it was really obvious when it was time to call it quits. But he and my husband? Those two seem DESTINED.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 6:08 PM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


so, by pure chance, I ended up with an ex of mine as a roommate for a few years - he need a place to live, I had a spare room in the basement, we were still good friends. So I got to meet and hang out with anyone he was dating during that time. Now most of my best friends are also his exes. Just last saturday I had people over for a games night, and 3 of the 4 women there had dated him. We didn't mention him once. (we have talked about his current GF other times, though, because we think she's awesome)
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 6:11 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


> I got fairly wasted, walked out onto the back patio and found a table with 5 of my exes sitting at it.

So they walked out to

Krispy Kruller's All Nite Sugar Palace
It was there in the doorway
He said, "Oh, well maybe not"

Inside there were six women talking
They were the most justified angry ex-girlfriends
And they swivelled around slowly
Like they saw something bad
Through the eyes in the back of their heads
Like he always knew they had

And they said, "What a coincidence"
And "Hey you're just the man
We were saying that you did the best you could
You're fine we understand and so"

Tonight we're gonna be the party
We will party all night long
We are the party generation
You were the best but we'll survive, party on
posted by rtha at 6:40 PM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


Hah, so I'm not the only person that came to.
posted by RustyBrooks at 6:45 PM on February 11, 2015


It's like, required by law to bring up that song in a context like this.
posted by rtha at 7:22 PM on February 11, 2015


I dated a woman for 7 years before we broke up and I met my wife. My wife and I, married for 6 and a half years at the time were considering moving to the town my ex lived in. So, I thought it a good idea to introduce them. Wife could discuss neighborhoods, schools, etc with ex. First response from wife was I could not introduce them until another 6 months had passed. I scratched my head wondering why, but said ok. Well, 6 months pass and wife asks me to introduce her. I had forgotten about it actually. Rarely spoke to ex. She was married too with kids. So I introduce them via email. They exchange several emails before we are actually going to be in ex's town. On the drive to ex town, I ask casually why she wanted me to wait to introduce them. "I wanted to have been married to you longer than you went out with her". It had never occurred to me that she even thought a lick about the ex.

Then, when they finally meet in person, I make one request. Please don't talk about me. Both of them independently, but at virtually the same time said, "Why the fuck would we want to talk about you?" I guess that was a little presumptuous of me.
posted by 724A at 7:39 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Not at all. They're going to talk about you at some point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Saintly humanitarian endeavors - certain kinds of saintly humanitarian endeavors, not being part of ISM, for instance, or getting arrested while distributing food with Food Not Bombs, or protesting as part of ACT-UP - are a way of performing an idealized [white] femininity.

Also sometimes even white women actually care about stuff
posted by Jpfed at 8:09 PM on February 11, 2015 [15 favorites]


Yeah the "performing femininity" thing sometimes seems pretty callous.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:37 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am taken aback at ya'll who don't get this. It's a woman joking about her insecurities. She knows they are stupid! She is confronting her demons humorously. And yes, for women, those demons are often about our failure to be as pretty, thin, smart, ethical, or good in bed as other women. This is a pretty straightforward piece of humor. She doesn't actually think she or other women are more shallow and stupid than men.
posted by emjaybee at 9:05 PM on February 11, 2015 [20 favorites]


Walking into the house, my exes didn't speak about my halter top hanging off the other's toolbelt.

No words needed, the top was periwinkle, the sportscar yellow, perfect complimentary colors. We all survived that passage, as friends.

But one now laughs from some other dimension, and I now laugh alone.
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 PM on February 11, 2015


Everyone talking about their exes and about thinking about their exes need to read the article again.

It is an article about a woman obsessing about what she imagines about her boyfriend's past.

(At least that's what I imagine it is about).
posted by eye of newt at 10:22 PM on February 11, 2015


Yah, it's sort of funny comparing this thread to this vice one about exes' reviews. They're both seem pretty straightforward and well meant, but they do draw some interesting reactions. I chuckled.

I also feel the need to call out the people who are implying that (white?) women doing good things is some kind of feminity thing or whatever. Um. I don't know how much irony was in those comments, but fuck off? Kindness and compassion are pretty important to healthy relationships, and seeing someone genuinely care about these things can be a sign for that. And people doing good things is good. Whether you're a (white!?!? wtf?) women or not.
posted by Alex404 at 12:26 AM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I really had a hard time getting this article. I knew it was meant to be funny, and I understood the concept, it just really failed to work for me. Like it was written by someone from a completely different planet. Reading all the comments, I started dimly to remember the time one of my exes kept going on about S the Incomparable (one of his exes) and playing a Cure album to me and with each song he'd say, "oh, this is a K song" and the next one was "oh, this is an L song" and so on for each song (where these were all his previous and/or current girlfriends). I hated the Cure on principle for years after that. But in my case, my feelings about his exes were due to him banging on about them all the time, not due to my own inner imaginings (which were responsible for other problems but not that one).

I think the reason why it took me so long to get the article, though, is not because I am such a paragon of well-adjustedness, by the way. Just that I am so far out of the dating game that it is like a different planet. I have a kitten, what do I need with a relationship?
posted by Athanassiel at 12:42 AM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I also feel the need to call out the people who are implying that (white?) women doing good things is some kind of feminity thing or whatever. Um. I don't know how much irony was in those comments, but fuck off? Kindness and compassion are pretty important to healthy relationships, and seeing someone genuinely care about these things can be a sign for that. And people doing good things is good.

I, at least, saw it not so much as women doing those things but about fictional women being written up to do those things, and mens/others expectations that they do them.

Men looking for women who fit some perfect template that includes doing those things so they can brag/show off/feel good about themselves for having a cool girlfriend/wife absolutely exist, and people who see it as some sort of checkbox or test passing do as well.

I thought that comment was spot on, especially with it concerning it never being too tough or too dirty.

It's almost entirely not about the women, but what others expect of them when they hear of that stuff. Although there's a whole 'nother bridge to cross about people who do that stuff in college of any gender who present it as a "oh woah is me, look at what i sacrifice, look at how great i am" smug narcissistic thing. But nah, that comment was about expectations.

I'm kind of amazed it got so much pushback. It's absolutely a real thing i've seen almost as much as the "white guys idealized asian wife/girlfriend who's like THIS" bullshit. It's both a status/trophy thing and a wank fantasy for a bunch of gross assholes, and a goalpost for other gross assholes to nod at or be jealous of.
posted by emptythought at 1:51 AM on February 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


My husband has only 2 exes. Both named Jennifer. Two Jennifers.
posted by drlith at 5:26 AM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


it's funny because we only value imperfection in protective, cute ways and actual, real imperfection often causes us to be bad partners who have a habit of essentializing mistakes and turning them into flaws which then changes the interpretation from dynamic to static which finally results in these being either fixable things or DTMFA things

it's funny because we're taking external symbols (ie music, orgasms, activities) to signify the value of the person as if they were an object who could be better if only they read cosmo more and gave more bjs using more donuts and creamsicles and croissants or whatever

it's funny because we have these ideas of perfect, idealized persons (interesting, educated, well-adjusted, etc) and we take those traits as essential which causes us crazy amounts of dissonance because we know those probably are just objects of environment and developmental happenstance

it's funny because she's taking that frame of reference, of a very masculine 'we can trade up' or 'we can fix it' and applying it to herself and is attempting to satirize the whole notion

but like, really, who the fuck does matt think he is
posted by saucy_knave at 5:37 AM on February 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm kind of amazed it got so much pushback. It's absolutely a real thing i've seen almost as much as the "white guys idealized asian wife/girlfriend who's like THIS" bullshit. It's both a status/trophy thing and a wank fantasy for a bunch of gross assholes, and a goalpost for other gross assholes to nod at or be jealous of.

Fair enough. I thought the joke about this type of noble person was funny in the context of the article, so it's not like I couldn't get it... but yah. I guess in reading the article I didn't think of it as particularly gender specific, up to the fact that you could swap out a little of the appearance details and get the same effect. For some reason making this about white women in particular set off some alarm bells for me.
posted by Alex404 at 6:30 AM on February 12, 2015


This is where being arrogant pays off!

I dunno. I know what I'm good at, and what I'm not good at, and even when I'm doing something kind with one of my skills, I still mentally subtract moral high ground points from my actions in some weird and anxious interior algebra of competitive femininity.

My high school boyfriend -- a good guy -- is married and lives along the route I take to my parents' house when I visit. The Wife is lovely and always looks perfect, in a way that I (in my muck boots and Carhartt and sharp objects on my person) will never attain. I saw on Facebook that she had the flu, and dropped off a loaf of my kickass bread and a jar of my yummy jam for her because I was passing through, and because it was a kind thing, and because secretly, in my smaller heart, I thought things like "Yeah, she'll have guilt over any nasty thoughts about me" and "This is HOW DAMN GOOD I am, in this tiny way" and "I think I might have just done something that resembles a feminine gesture, so maybe I just offset my failure to achieve socially-sanctioned and arbitrary standards of American femininity?" Turning a benign, friendly gesture into something to ponder, so as far as imaginary points for being a good person, it's kind of a wash.

OTOH, sometimes a jar is just a jar.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:12 AM on February 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


About a year ago I wrote a story in which I turned into Stalin so I could deport my then-on-a-break-with boyfriend's ex-girlfriend who I despise(d). It was much dirtier and more mean-spirited than this New Yorker piece, but it got published in a small magazine and I read it at two separate readings in NY, one of which my boyfriend attended. He haaaates that story (though admits it is funny, begrudgingly). Someone once gently told me I should switch up my topics because I'd "never get published in the New Yorker writing about [my] boyfriend's exgirlfriends." HA HA HA HA HA HA
posted by millipede at 7:19 AM on February 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


For some reason making this about white women in particular set off some alarm bells for me.

Actually, the whole idea of 'volunteering is a good thing and you're probably not as good a person if you don't do it?' Is a real attitude, and in my experience, has usually been something held by white people, both liberal and conservative.

In contrast, take the attitude of the Chinese immigrant community that I grew up in (non-religious Hong Kong diaspora from the 70's, equally non-religious mainland Chinese from 80's and 90's).

Volunteering at the community center, yeah. Marching in a political protest and spending the entire week beforehand making signs and doing 60 hours of hard logistical work? Sure. But going out and helping some random elderly strangers, probably as part of some idea of making the world better through an organized program of doing social good, instead of visiting with your own elderly grand-aunt, or driving around her friend's sister's cousin who got a hip replacement three weeks ago and whose daughter lives across the country? What? Why would you want to help people that you had nothing in common with?

So yeah, in the world I grew up in, first-gen immigrants tend to find the idea of volunteering bizarre. The attitude of second generation immigrants depended on how much time they spend with white people.

In fact, back in the day, I had a (Chinese) friend who grew up in suburbia. His parents were ?????? about the idea of him volunteering at a hospital and were adamantly against it. His mom actually said, "Why would you work with sick people for free?" He legit wanted to volunteer and help, but they didn't back off until he explained that he was doing it to make him look better for college applications.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:24 AM on February 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


my parents regularly volunteer. they're first generation Chinese immigrants from the mainland. mom's from the south, dad's from up north.

civil society is probably different with different conceptions of family structure, true, but the notion that you won't ever see old Chinese folks volunteering somewhere is a weird idea that I'm not a huge fan of
posted by saucy_knave at 7:45 AM on February 12, 2015


the notion that you won't ever see old Chinese folks volunteering somewhere is a weird idea that I'm not a huge fan of

I wasn't as clear as I could have been. The distinction isn't really helping/not helping.

It's more that the community that I saw, which may not have been the community that you saw, helping out people who are inside your community because they are like you and you want to be helpful/make things better for them = normal and accepted and encouraged and a sign that you're a good person with proper respect and feelings, and not-really-volunteering.

Helping out random strangers because they're outside your community group = something white people do, and is called 'volunteering'

Then again, it's entirely the people you knew were growing up were different than the ones I knew. The attitude I describe was widely held, though, among the adults I knew. It was particularly pronounced among the parent-generation who had grown up in the countryside due to their families being sent there in the Cultural Revolution.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:02 AM on February 12, 2015


I also feel the need to call out the people who are implying that (white?) women doing good things is some kind of feminity thing or whatever. Um. I don't know how much irony was in those comments, but fuck off? Kindness and compassion are pretty important to healthy relationships, and seeing someone genuinely care about these things can be a sign for that. And people doing good things is good. Whether you're a (white!?!? wtf?) women or not.

Okay, I fear I'm going to be a total jerk, but since we're at the "fuck off" level already:

Careful reading is helpful. "Saintly humanitarian acts" is not the same as "doing good things". "Saintly", for instance - I've done a certain amount of "good things" of the volunteer kind in my life, and "saintly" would be an unusual descriptor, because it suggests either a genuine saintliness and self-sacrifice which is unusual in daily life or a certain sanctimony.

"Humanitarian" too is a vexed term - consider "humanitarian military interventions", for example. Calling something "humanitarian" already marks it as ambiguous. When people go out and march for Mike Brown or distribute needles on the street, you wouldn't generally say that they are doing "humanitarian" work - "humanitarian" is an anodyne, depoliticizing word that covers up the real, political, controversial nature of doing work for social change.

There's a bog-standard critique of the performance of white femininity which says "certain types of non-political, "feminine" "charitable" work have historically been ways in which white women perform appropriate femininity, showing that they have leisure time, appropriately feminine sentiments, the ability to nurture, etc". A white middle class woman who, for instance, goes to Palestine with ISM, is not performing this thing that exists, idealized white femininity, which is about frailty, sensibility, unselfishness, emotional labor, a certain physicality (idealized white femininity being young, thin, often blond, if physically strong then certainly not muscular, sexually available looking but not slutty, etc).

Think of it as a "from high to low" form of charity - white women have, historically, been encouraged to see them/ourselves as gracious civilizing forces. We're kind, we're generous, we graciously assist those in need - but we should never talk about how the "need" that they find themselves in is the result of the processes that elevate us as middle class white people.

"Charity" versus "organizing" or "charity" versus "worker power" might be useful oppositions, here. Confrontational political work - like that done by Emma Goldman or Ella Baker or Silvia Rivera - is not a marker of appropriate femininity, and indeed all those women had aspersions cast on their femininity because of the work they did. Self-serving political work, like organizing a union or a daycare co-op, is not a marker of appropriate femininity, because it is for you - appropriate performance of femininity is about putting the interests of others first, always and above all, even at your own expense. Women union organizers - good people though they may be - are not held up as beacons of femininity, because idealized [mainstream, white] femininity isn't about standing up for yourself. (There's a little bit of room for being "feisty" or "kickass", but only while maintaining one's beauty and prioritizing relationships with men and children.)

Because of the way that whiteness is constructed in this country, as a broad generality white women are encouraged/expected to perform femininity differently from women of color, certain modes of idealized femininity are so constructed that they are necessarily white and white women are rewarded far more for the successful performance of femininity. (A simple example - young black women are far more likely to be suspended from school than young white women for the same kind of infraction, since young black women are assumed to be discipline cases already. Young white women get the benefit of an idealized white femininity, an image of gentleness, frailty, sensibility, well-meaningness.)

Women are socialized to perform femininity in their/our various ways in order to be socially successful.

Women are also socialized to see them/ourselves as civilizing forces, bringers of morality, civilizers of men (and their crude jokes, etc - the stuff of a million television commercials!). We're supposed to be doing "good work" in order to be good as women. This is very different from "being a good person", being a union organizer, providing housing for trans youth, etc, and is much more akin to how women are socialized to seek to feel good about ourselves as women through being thin, seeking to make our bodies lithe but not bulkily muscular, eating salad instead of what we actually want for dinner, remembering to ask about our boss's children, etc. All of these may be kind, healthy or useful things to do, but they are also part of a narrative of what it means to be the ideal [white, middle class] woman, and they are both more imperative and more emotionally weighty for women than for men.

When you read carefully, you see that what is being discussed is not "should I do volunteer work" or "is a person who is generous better than one who is selfish" but instead "how does the social imperative to do non-political and non-confrontational charity work play into the construction of ideal [white] femininity". That, to my mind, what what ennui.bz was asking about, and that is the question I attempted to answer.
posted by Frowner at 8:31 AM on February 12, 2015 [15 favorites]


Yeah, well. I was dating a girl and mentioned this to my ex (we were still friends at the time) and it went a little like this:

Ex: "Sorry. What did you say her name is?"
Me: (very uncommon name)
Ex: {excruciatingly long chilled silence} That's my best friend. You know that, right?

In my defence, no I didn't. We had met completely independently of my ex. Damn you, Fate! <
posted by The Hyacinth Girl at 8:33 AM on February 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


clawsoon: Men appear to think that women are attracted to generous men, too.
Not that the very existence of the world's oldest profession, along with much of our folklore from "Snow White" to "Pretty Woman", doesn't reinforce this idea A LOT. Spend and get sex: it's a near-constant message.

This comment was brought to you by FTD, who reminds you it's not too late to overnight-order a dozen roses before Saturday.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:03 AM on February 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


5 women who don't like you all at once?

You know, sometimes it is relatively innocent. I was invited to one of my exes' weddings - where I promptly met the ex he had dated previous to me. We hit it off like gangbusters and spent most of the time hanging out and giggling over stuff - but it was all in good fun, and we both considered the ex at that point a friend. It doesn't have to be them "laughing at inadequacies", it can often be "Oh my god, and his MOTHER!"
posted by corb at 9:07 AM on February 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


I didn't read the piece as implying that the ex-girlfriends volunteerism made her more attractive to the boyfriend, necessarily. The reference to the volunteering is more a joke about the nature of neurotic worry. Like, the whole piece is a negative fantasy, right? Hallie is wallowing in a fantasy about her own imagined inferiority as a sexual partner. But the easiest, sanest, most common response to someone confessing feelings of comparitive worthlessness is to remind them that everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. Someone with better hair than you may not have such nice eyes. Someone who is, just at the physical level, more attractive to more people than you are may not be as compelling a conversationalist. And maybe some superlatively attractive person is actually a shitty human being, really petty and selfish.

That's something you be likely to say even to yourself, if you're the one feeling inferior but you have any sense of proportion at all. But the whole point of the fantasy is to indulge in the awful feeling, not to mitigate it. So Hallie will not allow herself the "out" of remembering that everybody has their good points and bad. Instead, she must imagine that her hypothetical rivals have nothing but good points.

The piece ends at exactly the moment that the senselessness of the whole endeavor rises to the level of consciousness.
posted by Ipsifendus at 9:12 AM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


This Wikipedia summary gets at the idea that there was (to some extent still is) a cultural idea that arose in the 1800s that women, mothers, are the keeper of a home's purity and embody near-saintly virtue. It's an actual thing that they teach in cultural history classes, not some controversial thing Frowner just made up out of thin air. But it's an interesting connection to have made! I wouldn't have connected it to the "yes I volunteer at the animal shelter" thing until Frowner pointed it out.
posted by salvia at 9:43 AM on February 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Sorry, that might've come across wrong. By saying "it's an actual thing they teach in school," I don't mean to say "so whoever didn't know that is uneducated." (We all took different classes.) I was just meaning that it's maybe less controversial than people are making it out to be here.
posted by salvia at 9:45 AM on February 12, 2015 [3 favorites]



Men looking for women who fit some perfect template that includes doing those things so they can brag/show off/feel good about themselves for having a cool girlfriend/wife absolutely exist, and people who see it as some sort of checkbox or test passing do as well.


I see this all the time. Sometimes it seems like, cool, dude really loves and genuinely respects his wife/gf bc he's a genuinely good guy who protects his relationship and sees his wife as a human being, not an accessory.

But other times, it's like, wow, this guy seriously has nothing going on for himself aside from hitching himself to his wife/gf's star. The saddest part is when guy inevitably gets dumped and can't let go and becomes the creepy stalker who still thinks there's a chance. Like he wants to possess her coolness/gifts just by remaining associated with her and harping on having been in a relationship with her once, as though talent/like ability/coolness is sexually transmitted. Even though she married her soulmate and moved on from him.

Some guys could really benefit from emotional management skills. I was reading this article about how women are more likely to look forward, seek help, get over exes, and guys get hung up on the past and what could have been, and wow, some folks are a piece of work.
posted by discopolo at 10:15 AM on February 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


women, mothers, are the keeper of a home's purity and embody near-saintly virtue.

Virginia Woolf, from "Professions for Women":
You who come of a younger and happier generation may not have heard of her--you may not know what I mean by the Angel in the House. I will describe her as shortly as I can. She was intensely sympathetic. She was immensely charming. She was utterly unselfish. She excelled in the difficult arts of family life. She sacrificed herself daily. If there was chicken, she took the leg; if there was a draught she sat in it--in short she was so constituted that she never had a mind or a wish of her own, but preferred to sympathize always with the minds and wishes of others. Above all--I need not say it---she was pure. Her purity was supposed to be her chief beauty--her blushes, her great grace. In those days--the last of Queen Victoria--every house had its Angel.
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:21 AM on February 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


(There's a book whose title I can't recall which came out about three years ago which was about something like "women, purity and morality" and which described the historical roots of women in the West as enforcers of "civilized" behavior - it was a pop-scholarly work and the excerpt I read was quite good. Maybe someone here can think of the title as it made a bit of a splash?

I have on my very shelves at home three or four books about the origins of social work, white womanhood and class, plus several books about how home-making, cooking and home economics were all framed as ways for middle and upper class white women to socialize lower class women and women of color into "correct" [idealized American/white womanhood] also a copy of "The Revolution Will Not Be Funded", which gets at some of the "organizing versus charity" angle. Perfection Salad has some pretty fun chapters on volunteer work around cooking and nutrition, class, education and femininity IIRC. (And again, this has nothing to do with whether women should cook, whether I enjoy cooking, whether it's okay to date someone because you are dazzled by their baklava, etc.)

I've lost count of the number of posts I've read on Colorlines, Feministe, Racialicious, etc about how white femininity is constructed, often in opposition to and on the backs of black women.

Yes, this isn't something weird and crazy and race-obsessed that I just made up - it's a line of argument that is a pretty common way of understanding race and gender.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on February 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Frowner, before I digest what you've written, I just want to say, that I read your first comment as very flippant, and I reacted rudely. However you meant it, I apologize.
posted by Alex404 at 11:17 AM on February 12, 2015


Frowner, before I digest what you've written, I just want to say, that I read your first comment as very flippant, and I reacted rudely. However you meant it, I apologize.

That's okay. I could definitely have been a bit clearer about the difference between "how I feel about people I know and what I value in them" and "how we all deal with weird socially constructed understandings of how we ought to feel", especially because everybody feels pretty strongly about dating and relationship stuff.
posted by Frowner at 12:03 PM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Shouts and Murmurs is uneven -- a recent entry seemed ripped straight from an Amy Shumer sketch -- but come on, you have never, ever had a fleeting moment of envy when your partner's ex shows up on Facebook looking terrific and doing something more exciting than you are?

My long-term partner's high school girlfriend was an astrophysicist at JPL for a long time. Now she's a prof at some college and head of some research program that is doing something really fascinating and important for future space exploration whose details I can't remember right now. Something amazingly cool. How I know what she's up to now is that I am interested in the space program and was reading an article that quoted her. Just out of the blue. My beloved person's high school girlfriend.

She seems nice, and very cool. But I do have the fleeting moments, for sure.
posted by not that girl at 7:13 AM on February 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


One of the awesome things about being gay is that when 2 of my exes became roommates, they invited me and my current bf over for Thanksgiving dinner and we all had a nice time and watched silly TV shows.

When my ex-girlfriend and good friend got married, two of her other ex-girlfriends helped hold the chuppa, and I and another ex did readings. Her wife was a little taken aback at first during the planning but ended up thinking it was pretty cool.

My partner and I got married on lunch hour at the courthouse. We took our two best friends as witnesses.

Best friend #1: Formerly my lover. Formerly my partner's lover. Past occasional three-way sex friend of me and my partner. Current (at the time) long-term housemate of partner and me.

Best friend #2: Formerly my partner's lover. Formerly BF1's lover. Formerly Partner and BF1's partner in a three-way live-in relationship.

This is a phenomenon I love about queer community, the way we can sometimes maintain these ties.
posted by not that girl at 7:24 AM on February 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


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