What the Sharing Economy Takes
February 13, 2015 6:00 PM Subscribe
Uber and Airbnb monetize the desperation of people in the post-crisis economy while sounding generous—and evoke a fantasy of community in an atomized population.
Sharing is a good thing, we learned in kindergarten, but that wisdom was soon called into question by the grown-up world of getting and spending. Now, New Age capitalism has spun out a wonderful invention: the “sharing economy,” which holds out the promise of using technology to connect disparate individuals in mutually profitable enterprise, or at least in warm feelings.
Sharing is a good thing, we learned in kindergarten, but that wisdom was soon called into question by the grown-up world of getting and spending. Now, New Age capitalism has spun out a wonderful invention: the “sharing economy,” which holds out the promise of using technology to connect disparate individuals in mutually profitable enterprise, or at least in warm feelings.
I must have missed that day in kindergarten where they taught that sharing had to be mutually profitable.
posted by rtha at 6:10 PM on February 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by rtha at 6:10 PM on February 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
And I cmd-F'd for "tax" and "taxes" in that piece, which is a traditional way of "sharing," as I understand it? I guess not.
posted by rtha at 6:16 PM on February 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by rtha at 6:16 PM on February 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sharing economy is an oxymoron.
And a marketinggimmick term.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 6:16 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
And a marketing
posted by Benny Andajetz at 6:16 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Founder Travis Kalanick—whom colleagues call a “douche” and an “asshole”
Why do you put this in your story unless to intentionally discredit it and make it seem like you have an axe to grind? Maybe it's even true, but the story is about economics.
posted by destro at 6:29 PM on February 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Why do you put this in your story unless to intentionally discredit it and make it seem like you have an axe to grind? Maybe it's even true, but the story is about economics.
posted by destro at 6:29 PM on February 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yes, the whole thing is gross and exploitative and is just the tyranny of "markets" painted over with a veneer of chumminess. God, this must be what women feel like when article after article comes out going, gee-whiz, there's something to this feminism thing after all, I guess!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:30 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:30 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
You know who else disrupted transportation?
Oh god, I used to know the guy who wrote the original tweet. *sigh*
posted by asterix at 6:30 PM on February 13, 2015
Oh god, I used to know the guy who wrote the original tweet. *sigh*
posted by asterix at 6:30 PM on February 13, 2015
CrunchBase’s bio for TaskRabbit hits all the right notes: “It was a cold night in Boston in February of 2008 when Leah Busque realized she was out of dog food for her 100-lb yellow lab, Kobe. Leah thought to herself, ‘Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a place online I could go to connect with my neighbors—maybe one who was already at the store at that very moment—who could help me out?’” Thanks to the magic of this “curated” website, lugging a bag of dog food on a cold winter night gets recast as an act of neighborly generosity, even though money will change hands and the “neighbor” is unlikely to be seen again.Here's one short story's take on a gift economy version of TaskRabbit, where people aren't paid to help each other out but do expect their fellow members to help them when needed. I expect that in reality, a system like that requires too much mutual trust to scale across an entire city, so adding money helps each transaction actually happen.
posted by Rangi at 6:33 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's easy to hate on silly terms like "sharing economy", and especially on companies like Uber that elbow their way past all obstacles (both reasonable and not) to use technology to provide a service the public wants. But that doesn't mean the rules and systems currently in place make sense, or that applying that technology doesn't.
E.g., I think we have a pretty poor transportation system in most of North America, one that expects you to drive everywhere and requires you to pay the high costs of car ownership for it. The apparently much-maligned "sharing economy" and "disruptive technologies" make it possible to fix some of that dependency without entirely reconfiguring our cities, through easier and more ubiquitous taxis / flexible route transit to fill in the gaps of conventional transit and car-sharing to replace a car you sometimes need.
(Where was Lyft in that story? They're doing the same disruptive-sharing-economy thing as Uber, just without the asshole reputation.)
posted by parudox at 6:34 PM on February 13, 2015 [13 favorites]
E.g., I think we have a pretty poor transportation system in most of North America, one that expects you to drive everywhere and requires you to pay the high costs of car ownership for it. The apparently much-maligned "sharing economy" and "disruptive technologies" make it possible to fix some of that dependency without entirely reconfiguring our cities, through easier and more ubiquitous taxis / flexible route transit to fill in the gaps of conventional transit and car-sharing to replace a car you sometimes need.
(Where was Lyft in that story? They're doing the same disruptive-sharing-economy thing as Uber, just without the asshole reputation.)
posted by parudox at 6:34 PM on February 13, 2015 [13 favorites]
New Age capitalism
I like this phrase.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I like this phrase.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Can anyone find that old FPP about the former bike messenger guy who was immersed in the scene of the airbnb "hotels" in new york? because at least from what i've seen and heard elsewhere, and in my own city, airbnb seems to almost entirely be people renting out entire places full time(and usually multiple places) rather than renting out some space in a unit/house they actually occupy. It's illegal ho-turtles all the way down.
Similarly, uber and lyft are no longer, at least in the majority, people "just driving sometimes" like they were when they very first came to town. Now it's entirely former cab drivers in dedicated cars, usually priuses, manning it. Now it's just any other random old 1099 scam that many companies pull.
These keep being painted as some novel method of exploitation we should be outraged about, when in fact it's just the same old boss. Airbnb is just illegal short term subleasing or hotels, almost entirely in dedicated spaces in most US cities. Uber/lyft are just cab drivers in priuses. It didn't start out this way, but it is now. Why does everyone keep acting like what it only was for a few months or a year is still the case?
I mean, i agree, that shits an upsetting symptom, but now it's displaying a symptom of something else that's far more widespread and it doesn't seem like any of these writers want to talk about 1099/contractor abuse because that's boring or whatever.
posted by emptythought at 6:37 PM on February 13, 2015 [64 favorites]
Similarly, uber and lyft are no longer, at least in the majority, people "just driving sometimes" like they were when they very first came to town. Now it's entirely former cab drivers in dedicated cars, usually priuses, manning it. Now it's just any other random old 1099 scam that many companies pull.
These keep being painted as some novel method of exploitation we should be outraged about, when in fact it's just the same old boss. Airbnb is just illegal short term subleasing or hotels, almost entirely in dedicated spaces in most US cities. Uber/lyft are just cab drivers in priuses. It didn't start out this way, but it is now. Why does everyone keep acting like what it only was for a few months or a year is still the case?
I mean, i agree, that shits an upsetting symptom, but now it's displaying a symptom of something else that's far more widespread and it doesn't seem like any of these writers want to talk about 1099/contractor abuse because that's boring or whatever.
posted by emptythought at 6:37 PM on February 13, 2015 [64 favorites]
You don't like Uber? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to register more taxi medallions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
You don't like Airbnb? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to change its zoning restrictions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
Sharing economy. Please. Don't you pay for Uber? Don't you pay for Airbnb?
This is called "the economy." There's no need to tart it up by calling it "sharing."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:39 PM on February 13, 2015 [27 favorites]
You don't like Airbnb? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to change its zoning restrictions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
Sharing economy. Please. Don't you pay for Uber? Don't you pay for Airbnb?
This is called "the economy." There's no need to tart it up by calling it "sharing."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:39 PM on February 13, 2015 [27 favorites]
I would normally be much more sympathetic to this hit piece except for the fact that taxis & hotels are awful. These are both strongly regulated industries that are overpriced and have terrible customer service. I feel like these people writing this have never had to stay in a hotel or hail a cab - I can finally get back from the bar without feeling like I got mugged by some dude in a nearly broken re-painted police cruiser.
While less regulated services like vacation rentals and black car services have existed for decades, there was no simple way to find them, and once you did, there was no reputation management system to determine if you were being scammed. Ironically AirBnB and Uber, by being assholes in this space, will finally connect both proper regulatory coverage (insurance, background checks, taxes, etc) with true reputation management and customer feedback.
Do you really want to go back to the bad old days?
posted by temancl at 6:44 PM on February 13, 2015 [22 favorites]
While less regulated services like vacation rentals and black car services have existed for decades, there was no simple way to find them, and once you did, there was no reputation management system to determine if you were being scammed. Ironically AirBnB and Uber, by being assholes in this space, will finally connect both proper regulatory coverage (insurance, background checks, taxes, etc) with true reputation management and customer feedback.
Do you really want to go back to the bad old days?
posted by temancl at 6:44 PM on February 13, 2015 [22 favorites]
> Then maybe you should tell your local city government to change its zoning restrictions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
I know this will come as a shock to you, but I have a lot less money than airbnb does to hire lobbyists!
Zoning restrictions are not the main problem. Greed is the main problem. Airbnbs in San Francisco are dominated by multi-unit-controlling property owners, not renters making a little on the side. But you knew that.
posted by rtha at 6:46 PM on February 13, 2015 [36 favorites]
I know this will come as a shock to you, but I have a lot less money than airbnb does to hire lobbyists!
Zoning restrictions are not the main problem. Greed is the main problem. Airbnbs in San Francisco are dominated by multi-unit-controlling property owners, not renters making a little on the side. But you knew that.
posted by rtha at 6:46 PM on February 13, 2015 [36 favorites]
The only sharing economy I am prepared to accept is the one in Sterling's Maneki Neko. Everything thing else is wolves in sheep's clothing.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:49 PM on February 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:49 PM on February 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Authentic sharing
By bringing a commercial ethos to bear on exchanges that were once outside the market, the civilizing process that is often attributed to the “bourgeois virtues” of capitalism — with successful economic exchange building the only form of social trust necessary — gets to spread itself over all possible human relationships. The only real community is a marketplace in which everyone has a fair shot to compete.posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:51 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is called "the economy." There's no need to tart it up by calling it "sharing."
Perhaps not, and I've said this before on MeFi, but I'll say it again: the US has an anti-rental mindset. Ownership society and whatnot. Renters are vagrants we should distrust and insult. As a result, outside of a few urban centers, you'll never see anyone run for local city government on a pro-renter platform. Not when the majority of citizens who bought into the individual ownership system of self-reliance has much to lose by declining demand for what it is these companies 'disrupt'.
So reframing services like Uber and Zipcar which substitute for purchases helps the companies break through the middleclass mindset that renting is throwing money away. And it turns out, when a middle class person goes shopping for rental and services, the fact that ownership is an always an option makes price gouging more difficult. This probably explains why the Bolt Bus to Portland costs like a dollar if you buy via smartphone, but like 5-10 if you buy less than an hour ahead at the station.
posted by pwnguin at 6:54 PM on February 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Perhaps not, and I've said this before on MeFi, but I'll say it again: the US has an anti-rental mindset. Ownership society and whatnot. Renters are vagrants we should distrust and insult. As a result, outside of a few urban centers, you'll never see anyone run for local city government on a pro-renter platform. Not when the majority of citizens who bought into the individual ownership system of self-reliance has much to lose by declining demand for what it is these companies 'disrupt'.
So reframing services like Uber and Zipcar which substitute for purchases helps the companies break through the middleclass mindset that renting is throwing money away. And it turns out, when a middle class person goes shopping for rental and services, the fact that ownership is an always an option makes price gouging more difficult. This probably explains why the Bolt Bus to Portland costs like a dollar if you buy via smartphone, but like 5-10 if you buy less than an hour ahead at the station.
posted by pwnguin at 6:54 PM on February 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
"it’s entered into a partnership with Santander, a Spanish bank, to offer car loans to drivers, with the payments conveniently deducted from their paycheck. According to the terms posted on Uberpeople.net, a chat board for drivers, the payments work out to an interest rate of around 21 percent."
St. Peter don't you call me, cause I can't goooooo.....
...you know the rest.
posted by crazylegs at 6:54 PM on February 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
St. Peter don't you call me, cause I can't goooooo.....
...you know the rest.
posted by crazylegs at 6:54 PM on February 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
You don't like Uber? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to register more taxi medallions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
You know, it's possible to hold both of these thoughts in your head at the same time with no contradiction.
posted by asterix at 7:01 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know, it's possible to hold both of these thoughts in your head at the same time with no contradiction.
posted by asterix at 7:01 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Heck, convince DOTs that there's no reason they shouldn't be doing this rather than a company like Uber. On demand rideshares are a great supplementary last mile for transport, even if a DOT ran them profit-neutral the data alone would probably make all public transportation services better planned and therefore more valuable.
posted by weston at 7:07 PM on February 13, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by weston at 7:07 PM on February 13, 2015 [21 favorites]
> Zoning restrictions are not the main problem. Greed is the main problem. Airbnbs in San Francisco are dominated by multi-unit-controlling property owners, not renters making a little on the side. But you knew that.
There aren't very many cities with much public sentiment against Airbnb. San Francisco is one of them, and it also happens to be one of the most difficult places to construct more housing. I don't think the former would be possible without the latter.
posted by parudox at 7:09 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
There aren't very many cities with much public sentiment against Airbnb. San Francisco is one of them, and it also happens to be one of the most difficult places to construct more housing. I don't think the former would be possible without the latter.
posted by parudox at 7:09 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Jesus fuck. Uber, et al, are not "sharing". They are part of a long history of something called piece work or homework which is a technique used by industry to offset capital costs.
This is a new application of a very old technique. Like, industrial revolution old.
So, whatever we say or do or think about services like uber, please stop referring to it as the sharing economy. Because it is not. It is business as usual.
posted by clvrmnky at 7:20 PM on February 13, 2015 [73 favorites]
This is a new application of a very old technique. Like, industrial revolution old.
So, whatever we say or do or think about services like uber, please stop referring to it as the sharing economy. Because it is not. It is business as usual.
posted by clvrmnky at 7:20 PM on February 13, 2015 [73 favorites]
You know who else disrupted transportation?
@bchesky (9:00 AM - 13 Feb 2015): "Apparently during Salt March, Gandhi stayed in homes. Good thing gov didn't require a min 30 day stay. He wouldn't have gotten very far."
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:58 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
@bchesky (9:00 AM - 13 Feb 2015): "Apparently during Salt March, Gandhi stayed in homes. Good thing gov didn't require a min 30 day stay. He wouldn't have gotten very far."
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:58 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
You don't like Uber? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to register more taxi medallions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
Half the taxis in NYC ARE on uber. I had a cabbie refuse me entry into his (for-hire light on) cab because he was already committed to an uber pickup.
Adding more taxi medallions just means that many more cabbies to turn me down.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Half the taxis in NYC ARE on uber. I had a cabbie refuse me entry into his (for-hire light on) cab because he was already committed to an uber pickup.
Adding more taxi medallions just means that many more cabbies to turn me down.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
and it also happens to be one of the most difficult places to construct more housing. I don't think the former would be possible without the latter.
We've got condos going up like oxalis after rain and they're renting for outrageous amounts of money. The people in the Mission building that burned a couple weeks ago will not be moving next door to the $3k/mo jr one bedrooms in the fancy new building.
posted by rtha at 8:04 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
We've got condos going up like oxalis after rain and they're renting for outrageous amounts of money. The people in the Mission building that burned a couple weeks ago will not be moving next door to the $3k/mo jr one bedrooms in the fancy new building.
posted by rtha at 8:04 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
@bchesky (9:00 AM - 13 Feb 2015): "Apparently during Salt March, Gandhi stayed in homes. Good thing gov didn't require a min 30 day stay. He wouldn't have gotten very far."
What I tweeted earlier was ill-considered. I’m sorry. Never intended to compare our issues to work done by one of history's great leaders.
3:30pm - 13 Feb 15
What a slimy little weasel.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:31 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
What I tweeted earlier was ill-considered. I’m sorry. Never intended to compare our issues to work done by one of history's great leaders.
3:30pm - 13 Feb 15
What a slimy little weasel.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:31 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's kind of amazing how some people can't seem to discuss the brutality of the economy without giving the impression that they're beating off to it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:36 PM on February 13, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:36 PM on February 13, 2015 [28 favorites]
Perhaps not, and I've said this before on MeFi, but I'll say it again: the US has an anti-rental mindset. Ownership society and whatnot. Renters are vagrants we should distrust and insult. As a result, outside of a few urban centers, you'll never see anyone run for local city government on a pro-renter platform. Not when the majority of citizens who bought into the individual ownership system of self-reliance has much to lose by declining demand for what it is these companies 'disrupt'.
So reframing services like Uber and Zipcar which substitute for purchases helps the companies break through the middleclass mindset that renting is throwing money away.
I completely agree with your first paragraph -- we are oddly down on renters in the US, which of course makes renting an outstandingly shitty experience.
But your second paragraph doesn't connect for me. Uber is a service provider, not a rental agency. You use Uber like you would use a service to come and clean your house or to cook your dinner, rather than as a way to rent a car. Or rather, if you are renting something, it is the driver -- it is a momentary way to have staff. We almost all have cars, but how many of us have drivers?
posted by Dip Flash at 8:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
So reframing services like Uber and Zipcar which substitute for purchases helps the companies break through the middleclass mindset that renting is throwing money away.
I completely agree with your first paragraph -- we are oddly down on renters in the US, which of course makes renting an outstandingly shitty experience.
But your second paragraph doesn't connect for me. Uber is a service provider, not a rental agency. You use Uber like you would use a service to come and clean your house or to cook your dinner, rather than as a way to rent a car. Or rather, if you are renting something, it is the driver -- it is a momentary way to have staff. We almost all have cars, but how many of us have drivers?
posted by Dip Flash at 8:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a new application of a very old technique. Like, industrial revolution old.
earlier than that - the proto-industrial revolution (16-17th century) ran on piecework.
Piecework is the worst way to work.
posted by jb at 8:40 PM on February 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
earlier than that - the proto-industrial revolution (16-17th century) ran on piecework.
Piecework is the worst way to work.
posted by jb at 8:40 PM on February 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
"New Age capitalism" is a pretty goofy term for neoliberalism
posted by p3on at 9:11 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by p3on at 9:11 PM on February 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
We've got condos going up like oxalis after rain [in San Francisco]
This is housing policy by anecdote unless you have access to some data set I'm unaware of.
If you look at data on housing permits issued or # of housing units created, San Francisco is simply not permitting or creating very many new housing units.
posted by ripley_ at 9:37 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is housing policy by anecdote unless you have access to some data set I'm unaware of.
If you look at data on housing permits issued or # of housing units created, San Francisco is simply not permitting or creating very many new housing units.
posted by ripley_ at 9:37 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
I just wish public transport were more viable for transport. In Portland I've waited over an hour for a taxi in relatively busy areas such as East Burnside (around where The Standard, Holman's, Laurelhurst Theater, East Burn, etc are) or had taxis simply not show up. If I was in a more dangerous area this would be unacceptable. Thankfully it's mostly easy to ride a bike somewhere if you live downtown or around the central east side, but riding a long ways in winter isn't always great, and riding while drunk isn't either.
I'm not sure what's going on with Uber here. It wasn't legal due to something involving the taxis here, and last I heard Uber decided to just open up into the market illegally. I haven't used it and I have no desire to based on terrible stories I've heard from others that I trust.
I wish TriMet had enough budget and employees to operate late at night/early in the morning. That's a wild dream, but I'd prefer that over something like Uber.
posted by gucci mane at 9:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure what's going on with Uber here. It wasn't legal due to something involving the taxis here, and last I heard Uber decided to just open up into the market illegally. I haven't used it and I have no desire to based on terrible stories I've heard from others that I trust.
I wish TriMet had enough budget and employees to operate late at night/early in the morning. That's a wild dream, but I'd prefer that over something like Uber.
posted by gucci mane at 9:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
> If you look at data on housing permits issued or # of housing units created
Austin is at the top of that chart. The city has a population density of 2,758.43/sq mi. San Francisco's is 17,867/sq mi. Where should people who already live here go while more housing is being built, because there will be displacement? Or should there be more housing built on fill, like the Mission Bay project? People always talk about building up, and yes, that's the most efficient way to do it. How many blocks of existing housing should be eliminated in order to build high rises? Or maybe you should talk to Mountain View, which told Google it did not want to approve a proposed housing development that many Google workers would live. How much housing is Cupertino adding?
And how are we going to keep all these people watered?
posted by rtha at 10:23 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Austin is at the top of that chart. The city has a population density of 2,758.43/sq mi. San Francisco's is 17,867/sq mi. Where should people who already live here go while more housing is being built, because there will be displacement? Or should there be more housing built on fill, like the Mission Bay project? People always talk about building up, and yes, that's the most efficient way to do it. How many blocks of existing housing should be eliminated in order to build high rises? Or maybe you should talk to Mountain View, which told Google it did not want to approve a proposed housing development that many Google workers would live. How much housing is Cupertino adding?
And how are we going to keep all these people watered?
posted by rtha at 10:23 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
> If you look at data on housing permits issued or # of housing units created, San Francisco is simply not permitting or creating very many new housing units.
You linked to a report about NYC housing, not SF, and only through 2012. Here's a more recent report, with 50K units in the pipeline. I'm guessing you don't actually live in SF as the level of construction here is really hard to miss right now.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:31 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
You linked to a report about NYC housing, not SF, and only through 2012. Here's a more recent report, with 50K units in the pipeline. I'm guessing you don't actually live in SF as the level of construction here is really hard to miss right now.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:31 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It is possible for housing to sprout up to meet ridiculous demand - see Toronto's forests of condos, where rents are actually dropping due to the increased supply. But that takes figures like 56,000 units - not in a decades-long pipeline, but actually under construction. San Francisco has only 7,000.
posted by parudox at 10:44 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by parudox at 10:44 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
You linked to a report about NYC housing
Which included a chart with SF.
Here's a more recent report, with 50K units in the pipeline.
The article makes it clear that "in the pipeline" includes projects decades away from completion. Also, assuming 2 people/unit that means the city's population can grow by about 12%. Not quite enough to reverse years of skyrocketing demand/rents.
posted by ripley_ at 10:47 PM on February 13, 2015
Which included a chart with SF.
Here's a more recent report, with 50K units in the pipeline.
The article makes it clear that "in the pipeline" includes projects decades away from completion. Also, assuming 2 people/unit that means the city's population can grow by about 12%. Not quite enough to reverse years of skyrocketing demand/rents.
posted by ripley_ at 10:47 PM on February 13, 2015
temancl: "Uber, by being assholes in this space, will finally connect both proper regulatory coverage (insurance, background checks, taxes, etc) with true reputation management and customer feedback. "
This is probably turning more into a complaint against Uber instead of commentary on the article, but I really wish these services would or were incentivized to do more to benefit the rest of us. The apparent skill of Uber drivers--they're trivial to spot, so I know they're driving for that platform--in my city is very poor. Most of them seem like converted taxi drivers with all that entails. Stopping in the middle of a lane of traffic to pick up a fare, idling in bus lanes*, double parking, aggressive driving...would be great if the rest of us could produce some "customer feedback" for having to put up with them. Instead, there's now no one for us to complain to except the overextended police department.
* That's fine, the 40 of us on this bus are happy to wait behind you being illegally parked in the bus lane while your one passenger loads up and gets comfortable.
posted by fireoyster at 11:04 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is probably turning more into a complaint against Uber instead of commentary on the article, but I really wish these services would or were incentivized to do more to benefit the rest of us. The apparent skill of Uber drivers--they're trivial to spot, so I know they're driving for that platform--in my city is very poor. Most of them seem like converted taxi drivers with all that entails. Stopping in the middle of a lane of traffic to pick up a fare, idling in bus lanes*, double parking, aggressive driving...would be great if the rest of us could produce some "customer feedback" for having to put up with them. Instead, there's now no one for us to complain to except the overextended police department.
* That's fine, the 40 of us on this bus are happy to wait behind you being illegally parked in the bus lane while your one passenger loads up and gets comfortable.
posted by fireoyster at 11:04 PM on February 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
The solution to inefficient regulation is not deregulation or circumvention of regulation. As useful as uber and airbnb are (and I use them in some places I travel--LA, Berlin), they don't represent a positive turn of events at all--or a beneficial solution to our existing actual problems.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:08 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:08 PM on February 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
I moved to San Francisco about eight months ago from Boston. I primarily bike to get around but I find myself using Lyft line up to half a dozen times a week (getting groceries, bad weather, late nights, etc). It is $5 a ride which is roughly twice the price of the Muni or buses; if it got any cheaper I would worry about public transport revenues. What I've seen is that most people who use ride sharing in San Francisco use Lyft and Uber has a bad reputation here. I usually talk to the drivers on my rides and what I am consistently told by them is that they like what they do and they are getting paid enough to make it worth their while. I used to live in New York City and Lyft is consistently cleaner, friendlier, quicker, cheaper, and safer than NYC yellow cabs or livery cabs. Lyft has taken a lot of the misery of living without a car and dealing with San Francisco's poor public transit. If the drivers are making a living wage, which it appears most are, then I am pretty sure we're both making out for the better.
posted by kscottz at 11:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kscottz at 11:38 PM on February 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
EBAB (more or less a gay version of Airbnb, out of Germany) is what has allowed me to travel to Europe three times in recent years, for three weeks at a time each trip. I've aged out of the backpacker hostel scene, don't have the patience for couchsurfing, and can't afford hotels in the hip neighborhoods of Rome and Paris.
Actually, there aren't even any hotels in the hip parts of Rome.
If this is exploitation of my economic desperation, then exploit on. I'm down with my oppression.
posted by kanewai at 12:46 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Actually, there aren't even any hotels in the hip parts of Rome.
If this is exploitation of my economic desperation, then exploit on. I'm down with my oppression.
posted by kanewai at 12:46 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I usually talk to the drivers on my rides and what I am consistently told by them is that they like what they do and they are getting paid enough to make it worth their while.
It is a very bad idea to assume that the drivers are telling you their honest opinion. Remember, they don't know who you are, and they are utterly reliant on staying in the good graces of the service - who can unilaterally fire them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:50 AM on February 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
It is a very bad idea to assume that the drivers are telling you their honest opinion. Remember, they don't know who you are, and they are utterly reliant on staying in the good graces of the service - who can unilaterally fire them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:50 AM on February 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
You don't like Uber? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to register more taxi medallions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
You don't like Airbnb? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to change its zoning restrictions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
Or hey, perhaps you could realize that it's not just about you. A huge part of the problem with these services is that they very much are built around socializing issues while privatizing profits, and that the reason that regulations exist is not just corruption. Not to mention that corruption is a two way street - it's not like these companies haven't been caught out behaving badly themselves.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:08 AM on February 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
You don't like Airbnb? Then maybe you should tell your local city government to change its zoning restrictions and stop being so fucking corrupt.
Or hey, perhaps you could realize that it's not just about you. A huge part of the problem with these services is that they very much are built around socializing issues while privatizing profits, and that the reason that regulations exist is not just corruption. Not to mention that corruption is a two way street - it's not like these companies haven't been caught out behaving badly themselves.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:08 AM on February 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
I really want to hate Uber but when it's five degrees out and the bus will take an hour and a half and an Uber takes fifteen minutes, it's hard to complain. Maybe if we had a viable taxi system here but people have been fighting for better taxis for generations and got zero response from the PUC.
posted by octothorpe at 3:31 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 3:31 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's amazing the percentage of issues with public transportation that could be solved simply by throwing money at it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:33 AM on February 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:33 AM on February 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
Pope Guilty: "It's amazing the percentage of issues with public transportation that could be solved simply by throwing money at it."
Yeah, but since Republicans in the interior of my state are terrified that a single penny of their gas taxes might be spent on transit service that black people in the cities use, bus and subway service is never going to be funded correctly.
posted by octothorpe at 5:48 AM on February 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yeah, but since Republicans in the interior of my state are terrified that a single penny of their gas taxes might be spent on transit service that black people in the cities use, bus and subway service is never going to be funded correctly.
posted by octothorpe at 5:48 AM on February 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
There's a groundswell of attention now being paid to these issues and for that I love Uber and AirBnb. The middle class is waking up to the fact that when someone has their hands around your throat it's probably time to stop complaining and start fighting back.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:52 AM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:52 AM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
If this is exploitation of my economic desperation, then exploit on. I'm down with my oppression.
It sounds like you are using the service, not contributing to it, so no, you aren't being exploited, you are exploiting.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:13 AM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you are using the service, not contributing to it, so no, you aren't being exploited, you are exploiting.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:13 AM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
For all the hype about Uber, I've only ever seen one person use it.
posted by jonmc at 6:17 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 6:17 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's probably because you live in a city with decent transit and a viable taxi system, jon.
posted by octothorpe at 6:31 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 6:31 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
> Not quite enough to reverse years of skyrocketing demand/rents. posted by ripley_ at 10:47 PM on February 13 [+] [!] Other [2/2]: «≡·
What I know about predicting population trends for planning purposes is that it's very difficult. When I moved to San Francisco in 2001, the then-dot-com boom was bombing, and the local government had a hard time for years getting developers interested in building housing (they all wanted to stick to commercial space, or sit on what they had). Did you have a different plan in mind? Because if you know more about housing policy (more than 'they should build more') I am all eyes.
> idling in bus lanes*
OH MAN. The private commuter buses - for Google, Apple, Genentech, etc. - they're a huge boon in a lot of ways because yes they take cars off the roads. They've also allowed cities all down the Peninsula to shove their housing problems mostly to SF, and they get to use municipal bus stops here in the city for stupid little money. Initially it was a dollar a stop, but there was a huge public freakout so now it's slightly more - around $3/stop. You know how much you'd have to pay if you stopped your car in a bus stop to drop off or pick people up? About $300, because your car is not a private commuter service, and it's illegal for you to use bus stops this way.
posted by rtha at 7:23 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I know about predicting population trends for planning purposes is that it's very difficult. When I moved to San Francisco in 2001, the then-dot-com boom was bombing, and the local government had a hard time for years getting developers interested in building housing (they all wanted to stick to commercial space, or sit on what they had). Did you have a different plan in mind? Because if you know more about housing policy (more than 'they should build more') I am all eyes.
> idling in bus lanes*
OH MAN. The private commuter buses - for Google, Apple, Genentech, etc. - they're a huge boon in a lot of ways because yes they take cars off the roads. They've also allowed cities all down the Peninsula to shove their housing problems mostly to SF, and they get to use municipal bus stops here in the city for stupid little money. Initially it was a dollar a stop, but there was a huge public freakout so now it's slightly more - around $3/stop. You know how much you'd have to pay if you stopped your car in a bus stop to drop off or pick people up? About $300, because your car is not a private commuter service, and it's illegal for you to use bus stops this way.
posted by rtha at 7:23 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
The solution to inefficient regulation is not deregulation or circumvention of regulation.
But it can be a motivator for change.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:32 AM on February 14, 2015
But it can be a motivator for change.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:32 AM on February 14, 2015
For all the hype about Uber, I've only ever seen one person use it.
Consider the possibility that you (and I, for I have also only known one person to use it) do not occupy their target demographic.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:01 AM on February 14, 2015
Consider the possibility that you (and I, for I have also only known one person to use it) do not occupy their target demographic.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:01 AM on February 14, 2015
What I know about predicting population trends for planning purposes is that it's very difficult.
Yeah, it's impossible because nobody knows whether the current tech gravy-train will continue. But that's a moot point because you don't need to predict long-term population trends for these purposes. Just allow significantly more housing (which is not radical - plenty of regions elsewhere in the world do), and if people want to move there they will.
Your example ("developers didn't want to build housing during a massive regional bust") is a little confusing to me - it's not clear why you think that's a problem. Given the information they had at the time (dropping incomes and regional employment), not building housing made sense. The Bay Area hasn't been in that situation for a while now.
posted by ripley_ at 8:54 AM on February 14, 2015
Yeah, it's impossible because nobody knows whether the current tech gravy-train will continue. But that's a moot point because you don't need to predict long-term population trends for these purposes. Just allow significantly more housing (which is not radical - plenty of regions elsewhere in the world do), and if people want to move there they will.
Your example ("developers didn't want to build housing during a massive regional bust") is a little confusing to me - it's not clear why you think that's a problem. Given the information they had at the time (dropping incomes and regional employment), not building housing made sense. The Bay Area hasn't been in that situation for a while now.
posted by ripley_ at 8:54 AM on February 14, 2015
Recently I was out late at a party at a friend's house. One of my friends needed a cab ride home so he called every taxi cab company in the area. At 4am none of them answered. So Uber it was.
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
posted by I-baLL at 9:45 AM on February 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
posted by I-baLL at 9:45 AM on February 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
> Given the information they had at the time (dropping incomes and regional employment), not building housing made sense.
You may not need (or be able) to accurately predict a 20-year trend, but even if you're correct about a five-year one, you can't just create tens of thousands of new housing units in a city as dense as this overnight, or even in a couple of years. There isn't that much empty land. "Just build more" isn't workable policy, but it's what everyone advocates in times like these. And it's not just more housing, but more affordable housing that's needed.
There's a (very long) PDF produced in 2002 called the San Francisco Housing DataBook that I've just started reading. It's very interesting and will teach me a lot. Here is the planning department's 2014 Housing Element Update.
posted by rtha at 10:28 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
You may not need (or be able) to accurately predict a 20-year trend, but even if you're correct about a five-year one, you can't just create tens of thousands of new housing units in a city as dense as this overnight, or even in a couple of years. There isn't that much empty land. "Just build more" isn't workable policy, but it's what everyone advocates in times like these. And it's not just more housing, but more affordable housing that's needed.
There's a (very long) PDF produced in 2002 called the San Francisco Housing DataBook that I've just started reading. It's very interesting and will teach me a lot. Here is the planning department's 2014 Housing Element Update.
posted by rtha at 10:28 AM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
Have you not considered that people might be complaining about these services as they currently exist, but also recognize that they can be part of the solution if properly regulated, which they are most definitely not?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:35 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Have you not considered that people might be complaining about these services as they currently exist, but also recognize that they can be part of the solution if properly regulated, which they are most definitely not?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:35 AM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Have you not considered that people might be complaining about these services as they currently exist, but also recognize that they can be part of the solution if properly regulated, which they are most definitely not?"
Keyword: "Might". If so then they can respond as such. That's why I asked. I don't want to assume that I know what other people are thinking.
posted by I-baLL at 10:50 AM on February 14, 2015
Keyword: "Might". If so then they can respond as such. That's why I asked. I don't want to assume that I know what other people are thinking.
posted by I-baLL at 10:50 AM on February 14, 2015
Also:
" recognize that they can be part of the solution if properly regulated, which they are most definitely not"
What would you consider to be proper regulation for Uber and AirBnb? I'm genuinely asking.
posted by I-baLL at 10:52 AM on February 14, 2015
" recognize that they can be part of the solution if properly regulated, which they are most definitely not"
What would you consider to be proper regulation for Uber and AirBnb? I'm genuinely asking.
posted by I-baLL at 10:52 AM on February 14, 2015
I'm all for properly regulating businesses but considering that our taxis have been regulated by the state PUC for eighty years and they are still completely and totally useless as a reliable mode of transportation, I'm not really hopeful of that working.
posted by octothorpe at 10:56 AM on February 14, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 10:56 AM on February 14, 2015
That's why I asked. I don't want to assume that I know what other people are thinking.
In that case, don't assume that anyone who complains about these services wants to see them eliminated.
What would you consider to be proper regulation for Uber and AirBnb? I'm genuinely asking.
Something akin to how cabs and hotels are currently regulated in terms of meeting public health and safety standards, taxing the ride/room sharers to cover the cost of these regulations.
considering that our taxis have been regulated by the state PUC for eighty years and they are still completely and totally useless as a reliable mode of transportation
Sure, cabs are terrible here in Pittsburgh, and that's why I see Uber/Lyft/etc as part of the solution. Competition doesn't always create better outcomes, but it certainly can push in that direction.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:06 AM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
In that case, don't assume that anyone who complains about these services wants to see them eliminated.
What would you consider to be proper regulation for Uber and AirBnb? I'm genuinely asking.
Something akin to how cabs and hotels are currently regulated in terms of meeting public health and safety standards, taxing the ride/room sharers to cover the cost of these regulations.
considering that our taxis have been regulated by the state PUC for eighty years and they are still completely and totally useless as a reliable mode of transportation
Sure, cabs are terrible here in Pittsburgh, and that's why I see Uber/Lyft/etc as part of the solution. Competition doesn't always create better outcomes, but it certainly can push in that direction.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:06 AM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
"In that case, don't assume that anyone who complains about these services wants to see them eliminated."
Uh, when did I do that?
posted by I-baLL at 11:14 AM on February 14, 2015
Uh, when did I do that?
posted by I-baLL at 11:14 AM on February 14, 2015
you can't just create tens of thousands of new housing units in a city as dense as this overnight, or even in a couple of years
Other cities manage it, San Francisco can too. I put together a quick spreadsheet comparing SF, Tokyo, and Toronto - you can play around with the # of housing starts in SF for easy comparison. You'll note that Tokyo managed to start 110,000 new units in 2012. Tokyo's about 5 times larger than SF in area, so that would correspond to about 22,000 new units in SF - despite Tokyo being twice as dense!
It's also worth noting that this wouldn't need to be done overnight if the Bay Area had allowed more housing earlier.
posted by ripley_ at 11:15 AM on February 14, 2015
Other cities manage it, San Francisco can too. I put together a quick spreadsheet comparing SF, Tokyo, and Toronto - you can play around with the # of housing starts in SF for easy comparison. You'll note that Tokyo managed to start 110,000 new units in 2012. Tokyo's about 5 times larger than SF in area, so that would correspond to about 22,000 new units in SF - despite Tokyo being twice as dense!
It's also worth noting that this wouldn't need to be done overnight if the Bay Area had allowed more housing earlier.
posted by ripley_ at 11:15 AM on February 14, 2015
Two comments ago?
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
This argument assumes that people complaining about the services don't see them as part of the solution.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:17 AM on February 14, 2015
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
This argument assumes that people complaining about the services don't see them as part of the solution.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:17 AM on February 14, 2015
No, it doesn't. That's why I asked the question in the first place.
EDIT: Note that I said "question" not "argument". I'm not sure how or why you're seeing my question as an argument.
posted by I-baLL at 11:19 AM on February 14, 2015
EDIT: Note that I said "question" not "argument". I'm not sure how or why you're seeing my question as an argument.
posted by I-baLL at 11:19 AM on February 14, 2015
I don't see any other way to read it, but I'm tired of arguing. I answered your question.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on February 14, 2015
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on February 14, 2015
We used Uber in London recently. It was great. The drivers said they liked it because Uber took less of a percentage than a conventional cab company.
I'm getting the impression that Uber hate is an identity thing for lefties, given the dubious opponents, huge improvement in service, and very unclear final outcomes.
posted by alasdair at 12:04 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm getting the impression that Uber hate is an identity thing for lefties, given the dubious opponents, huge improvement in service, and very unclear final outcomes.
posted by alasdair at 12:04 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Eh, I am not fond of Uber because I have browsed subreddits where it is clear that Uber is exploting the work and investment of drivers in order to make profit without giving back to the community.
posted by saucysault at 12:17 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 12:17 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't understand why people have a problem with Uber and AirBnB. I'm really not trying to be disingenuous.
I've used Uber a few times here in NYC and found it fast and convenient. I don't have any illusions about "sharing economy" or whatever. It's a car service that you can call with your phone and pay with your phone. In some parts of NYC and at some times of day it is really difficult to get a cab and you can be standing around waving for a long time. In some areas there simply aren't any cabs (e.g. most of the outer boroughs). To fix this the city should just make more taxi medallions available, but they can't because the medallion owners would have a fit about losing market share. So the supply is arbitrarily restricted. A solution could be increasing taxi fares. But they can't because those are also regulated, resulting in the situation we have now where it's sometimes basically impossible to find a free cab or the cabs won't go to certain areas. The yellow cab drivers have no incentive to go outside the busiest areas of Manhattan where there is always overwhelming demand.
Uber adds more supply and it allows people to pay a market price for the convenience of being able to hail a car with their phone. It's really just a phone app for the black cabs that have always been around and willing to negotiate with people for rides. If you don't like it, don't use it and just wait around for a yellow cab. I really don't get why anyone would be on the side of the medallion owners.
posted by pravit at 12:30 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've used Uber a few times here in NYC and found it fast and convenient. I don't have any illusions about "sharing economy" or whatever. It's a car service that you can call with your phone and pay with your phone. In some parts of NYC and at some times of day it is really difficult to get a cab and you can be standing around waving for a long time. In some areas there simply aren't any cabs (e.g. most of the outer boroughs). To fix this the city should just make more taxi medallions available, but they can't because the medallion owners would have a fit about losing market share. So the supply is arbitrarily restricted. A solution could be increasing taxi fares. But they can't because those are also regulated, resulting in the situation we have now where it's sometimes basically impossible to find a free cab or the cabs won't go to certain areas. The yellow cab drivers have no incentive to go outside the busiest areas of Manhattan where there is always overwhelming demand.
Uber adds more supply and it allows people to pay a market price for the convenience of being able to hail a car with their phone. It's really just a phone app for the black cabs that have always been around and willing to negotiate with people for rides. If you don't like it, don't use it and just wait around for a yellow cab. I really don't get why anyone would be on the side of the medallion owners.
posted by pravit at 12:30 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't understand why people have a problem with Uber and AirBnB.
I wasn't previously aware that anyone seriously disliked AirBnB, but Uber does bother me a bit. I admire its law-breaking approach, to whatever extent it's actually true that Uber "can’t be bothered with legalities." The laws in that area are seriously broken in most of the places it operates. The concept is also good. And the service is probably fine I expect. And from what I've heard it seems like driving for them might actually be better than being a traditional taxi driver at least in most cities. At least it's not much worse than that, and much better than many other jobs we tolerate the existence of.
What I have a problem with is the way they could so easily be much better than they are. Let the drivers set prices as they see fit. Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old. Take less of a cut for the company, because in the end it doesn't need to do much more than run a dispatching service that can be totally automated. Let drivers easily be "multi-homed", taking fares from other sources as they choose. Make the whole thing more like electronic hitchhiking. Add a whole lot more of that "free-wheeling spirit of the hippies." It wouldn't be difficult, just less profitable.
posted by sfenders at 12:47 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wasn't previously aware that anyone seriously disliked AirBnB, but Uber does bother me a bit. I admire its law-breaking approach, to whatever extent it's actually true that Uber "can’t be bothered with legalities." The laws in that area are seriously broken in most of the places it operates. The concept is also good. And the service is probably fine I expect. And from what I've heard it seems like driving for them might actually be better than being a traditional taxi driver at least in most cities. At least it's not much worse than that, and much better than many other jobs we tolerate the existence of.
What I have a problem with is the way they could so easily be much better than they are. Let the drivers set prices as they see fit. Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old. Take less of a cut for the company, because in the end it doesn't need to do much more than run a dispatching service that can be totally automated. Let drivers easily be "multi-homed", taking fares from other sources as they choose. Make the whole thing more like electronic hitchhiking. Add a whole lot more of that "free-wheeling spirit of the hippies." It wouldn't be difficult, just less profitable.
posted by sfenders at 12:47 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sure, but a lot of the objections to Uber are that it's plain old "dog eat dog unregulated capitalism" disguised as "free-wheeling spirit of the hippies."
So "can't be bothered with legalities" is, in practice, not 'sticking it to the Man' so much as 'everyone gets screwed except Uber, especially if something awful happens.'
posted by soundguy99 at 1:01 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
So "can't be bothered with legalities" is, in practice, not 'sticking it to the Man' so much as 'everyone gets screwed except Uber, especially if something awful happens.'
posted by soundguy99 at 1:01 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
So for people complaining about Uber and AirBnB, what's your solution to the extremely high hotel prices and really bad taxi service?
There never is one. It's just "this is bad and if you use it you should feel bad". To be fair, "i don't know what the solution looks like but this isn't one" is not an invalid or entirely unreasonable position to take. But the way it's presented often feels like a conversation ender.
I live in a city where the only way to really get a cab is to flag one down and hope it stops, and then even if you get in, you still might have the driver attempt to rob you or drive you out to somewhere weird you didn't ask for and be creepy, or whatever.
The worst experience i've had with uber was the guy who i requested picking up a different group of people, but i got charged for part of the trip. I was refunded the next day. The worst experiences with taxis involve robbery, erroneously increasing the fare(especially if i was using a card... repeatedly), creepy molester dudes, and intentionally going to the wrong places. I'd get "wow, you took a cab??!?" reactions from my parents whenever i did.
And that's assuming they ever showed up at all. Which almost never happens. i have never had a lyft or uber fail to show, or take more than maybe 10 minutes. it might cost more if it's some super busy time or a holiday or whatever, but they show up. I've seriously sat in a house for hours waiting for a cab before, that just never ever showed up.
I try and use car2go when i can. But the automated portions of it with the card readers and on board computer feel like something from the early 2000s or even the 90s. It reminds me of a really early pocketpc phone. Resistive touch screens, shitloads of software bugs, lag, crashes all the time, loses cell signal all the time. I've spent a half hour on the phone with support to log out of one at least 3 times now. Also you can only transport one other person(...officially, legally) and you have to be sober.
The Real Ethical Solution to this problem is only really going to come with self driving cars, or something that costs a lot more. And yea, something not run by assholes. Why the FUCK doesn't uber have a phone number you can call? I had to email them 3 times to even get a response. But at least you can contact a human at both services and go "my driver was a creepy asshole" and expect a real response.
My friend did that with the local cab company, and got a condescending lady who called her "honey" over and over and basically told her maybe you shouldn't have been dressed like a slut if you didn't want to get treated like that who at the end of the call told her she wouldn't let her daughter ride in a cab(seriously!)
Oh, and another thing is that it's already been proven that regulation doesn't make cabs safe. If a cab driver does something shitty the cab company doesn't care, and the city doesn't care. Then what? "Fix the regulation!" is a spherical cows solution, sorry.
Most of them seem like converted taxi drivers with all that entails. Stopping in the middle of a lane of traffic to pick up a fare, idling in bus lanes... That's fine, the 40 of us on this bus are happy to wait behind you being illegally parked in the bus lane while your one passenger loads up and gets comfortable.
This is a solved problem. If there's a location where this consistently happens, you just need to kill a couple parking spaces and put in a dedicated taxi stop zone. A street full of bars in my town constantly had taxis/ubers/etc blocking traffic, and just made a zone 3-4 "cabs" can pull over in, and are allowed to sit for some short period of time unoccupied as well. It's not perfect, but it changed the problem from "stuck for wreck on a 4 lane freeway bridge" amounts of time to stuck for 30 seconds while cars and cabs maneuver around or leave.
This argument assumes that people complaining about the services don't see them as part of the solution.
There are absolutely a large number of people, including on here, who basically have the opinion of "uber isn't really a solution to anything, it creates more of a problem than any problems it solves". I can't believe you're getting that much pushback and denial on this. That's as much of a widely held opinion as "the NFL is immoral omg"
posted by emptythought at 1:04 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
There never is one. It's just "this is bad and if you use it you should feel bad". To be fair, "i don't know what the solution looks like but this isn't one" is not an invalid or entirely unreasonable position to take. But the way it's presented often feels like a conversation ender.
I live in a city where the only way to really get a cab is to flag one down and hope it stops, and then even if you get in, you still might have the driver attempt to rob you or drive you out to somewhere weird you didn't ask for and be creepy, or whatever.
The worst experience i've had with uber was the guy who i requested picking up a different group of people, but i got charged for part of the trip. I was refunded the next day. The worst experiences with taxis involve robbery, erroneously increasing the fare(especially if i was using a card... repeatedly), creepy molester dudes, and intentionally going to the wrong places. I'd get "wow, you took a cab??!?" reactions from my parents whenever i did.
And that's assuming they ever showed up at all. Which almost never happens. i have never had a lyft or uber fail to show, or take more than maybe 10 minutes. it might cost more if it's some super busy time or a holiday or whatever, but they show up. I've seriously sat in a house for hours waiting for a cab before, that just never ever showed up.
I try and use car2go when i can. But the automated portions of it with the card readers and on board computer feel like something from the early 2000s or even the 90s. It reminds me of a really early pocketpc phone. Resistive touch screens, shitloads of software bugs, lag, crashes all the time, loses cell signal all the time. I've spent a half hour on the phone with support to log out of one at least 3 times now. Also you can only transport one other person(...officially, legally) and you have to be sober.
The Real Ethical Solution to this problem is only really going to come with self driving cars, or something that costs a lot more. And yea, something not run by assholes. Why the FUCK doesn't uber have a phone number you can call? I had to email them 3 times to even get a response. But at least you can contact a human at both services and go "my driver was a creepy asshole" and expect a real response.
My friend did that with the local cab company, and got a condescending lady who called her "honey" over and over and basically told her maybe you shouldn't have been dressed like a slut if you didn't want to get treated like that who at the end of the call told her she wouldn't let her daughter ride in a cab(seriously!)
Oh, and another thing is that it's already been proven that regulation doesn't make cabs safe. If a cab driver does something shitty the cab company doesn't care, and the city doesn't care. Then what? "Fix the regulation!" is a spherical cows solution, sorry.
Most of them seem like converted taxi drivers with all that entails. Stopping in the middle of a lane of traffic to pick up a fare, idling in bus lanes... That's fine, the 40 of us on this bus are happy to wait behind you being illegally parked in the bus lane while your one passenger loads up and gets comfortable.
This is a solved problem. If there's a location where this consistently happens, you just need to kill a couple parking spaces and put in a dedicated taxi stop zone. A street full of bars in my town constantly had taxis/ubers/etc blocking traffic, and just made a zone 3-4 "cabs" can pull over in, and are allowed to sit for some short period of time unoccupied as well. It's not perfect, but it changed the problem from "stuck for wreck on a 4 lane freeway bridge" amounts of time to stuck for 30 seconds while cars and cabs maneuver around or leave.
This argument assumes that people complaining about the services don't see them as part of the solution.
There are absolutely a large number of people, including on here, who basically have the opinion of "uber isn't really a solution to anything, it creates more of a problem than any problems it solves". I can't believe you're getting that much pushback and denial on this. That's as much of a widely held opinion as "the NFL is immoral omg"
posted by emptythought at 1:04 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
For all the hype about Uber, I've only ever seen one person use it.
'Uber" is practically a verb among my crowd.
Let the drivers set prices as they see fit.
I would stop using it.
Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old.
It's nice knowing that the car I call will be reliable.
Take less of a cut for the company
This could be said of almost every company in the modern world
Make the whole thing more like ... that "free-wheeling spirit of the hippies."
Why in the world?
I am completely baffled as to why Uber or Lyft would be held to a higher progressive-idealist standard than any other business. They are marginally better than most (and all the drivers I talk to like driving for them), and so the Left slays them for not being perfect.
It's a business, and one that seems to work. The hype about the "sharing company" means nothing to me ... it carries about the same weight as when Mountain Dew says that drinking their soda will make my life more extreme. All that is just spin. We're not supposed to actually believe it.
posted by kanewai at 1:23 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
'Uber" is practically a verb among my crowd.
Let the drivers set prices as they see fit.
I would stop using it.
Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old.
It's nice knowing that the car I call will be reliable.
Take less of a cut for the company
This could be said of almost every company in the modern world
Make the whole thing more like ... that "free-wheeling spirit of the hippies."
Why in the world?
I am completely baffled as to why Uber or Lyft would be held to a higher progressive-idealist standard than any other business. They are marginally better than most (and all the drivers I talk to like driving for them), and so the Left slays them for not being perfect.
It's a business, and one that seems to work. The hype about the "sharing company" means nothing to me ... it carries about the same weight as when Mountain Dew says that drinking their soda will make my life more extreme. All that is just spin. We're not supposed to actually believe it.
posted by kanewai at 1:23 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why in the world?
Because then it might live up to some of the hype. More importantly, it might make transportation better. It's frustratingly stupid to have so many half-empty cars crawling around in traffic jams all the time. If ordinary drivers could have some kind of electronic system that would let everyone negotiate payment for a ride, this could be greatly reduced. Ideally, the rating system and software could be sophisticated enough that driver and passenger could both set criteria such as whether they want a ride in a spiffy new car or only well-dressed passengers. It'd be nice to have. As I've been telling people for more than ten years, in the hopes that someone else would go ahead and set it up. I didn't try because I was too law-abiding and lazy. Uber coming so near the concept and yet landing so far away is not helping my faith in capitalism.
posted by sfenders at 1:41 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because then it might live up to some of the hype. More importantly, it might make transportation better. It's frustratingly stupid to have so many half-empty cars crawling around in traffic jams all the time. If ordinary drivers could have some kind of electronic system that would let everyone negotiate payment for a ride, this could be greatly reduced. Ideally, the rating system and software could be sophisticated enough that driver and passenger could both set criteria such as whether they want a ride in a spiffy new car or only well-dressed passengers. It'd be nice to have. As I've been telling people for more than ten years, in the hopes that someone else would go ahead and set it up. I didn't try because I was too law-abiding and lazy. Uber coming so near the concept and yet landing so far away is not helping my faith in capitalism.
posted by sfenders at 1:41 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't understand why people have a problem with Uber and AirBnB. I'm really not trying to be disingenuous.
In my case, I don't like that uber is only available to people with the app - and I know for a fact that NYC cabs are doubling as Uber cars, and THREE TIMES THIS YEAR I've been trying to hail a cab on a busy day, and finally seen one and started to get in - only to be stopped and evicted because the driver says that he's responding to a fucking Uber call who's already called dibs and so I have to wait even longer.
So personally, the reason I dislike Uber is because it puts people who either don't have the app - or worse, CAN'T have the app because they can't afford a smartphone - at a big disadvantage.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:42 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
In my case, I don't like that uber is only available to people with the app - and I know for a fact that NYC cabs are doubling as Uber cars, and THREE TIMES THIS YEAR I've been trying to hail a cab on a busy day, and finally seen one and started to get in - only to be stopped and evicted because the driver says that he's responding to a fucking Uber call who's already called dibs and so I have to wait even longer.
So personally, the reason I dislike Uber is because it puts people who either don't have the app - or worse, CAN'T have the app because they can't afford a smartphone - at a big disadvantage.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:42 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
They are marginally better than most (and all the drivers I talk to like driving for them),
Except that they really aren't - subprime car loans, exceptionally high (4.7/5) rating requirements, lowering milage charges while in a price war while taking a higher cut, cavalier data security rules - and that's what I can recall off the top of my head.
And again, stop assuming that the drivers are telling you how they really feel when you talk to them as a client. They don't know who you are, are completely at the mercy of the company's good graces (again, Uber requires all their drivers to maintain a 4.7/5 minimum rating, or they get fired, and that's not getting into that the company has fired drivers over making negative comments about Uber on social media.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Except that they really aren't - subprime car loans, exceptionally high (4.7/5) rating requirements, lowering milage charges while in a price war while taking a higher cut, cavalier data security rules - and that's what I can recall off the top of my head.
And again, stop assuming that the drivers are telling you how they really feel when you talk to them as a client. They don't know who you are, are completely at the mercy of the company's good graces (again, Uber requires all their drivers to maintain a 4.7/5 minimum rating, or they get fired, and that's not getting into that the company has fired drivers over making negative comments about Uber on social media.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
In my case, I don't like that uber is only available to people with the app - and I know for a fact that NYC cabs are doubling as Uber cars, and THREE TIMES THIS YEAR I've been trying to hail a cab on a busy day, and finally seen one and started to get in - only to be stopped and evicted because the driver says that he's responding to a fucking Uber call who's already called dibs.
One of the ironic things I've seen routinely with Uber defenders is their complaints that cabs won't accept credit cards, while ignoring that in an Uber dominated future, anyone without a smartphone is SOL.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:46 PM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the ironic things I've seen routinely with Uber defenders is their complaints that cabs won't accept credit cards, while ignoring that in an Uber dominated future, anyone without a smartphone is SOL.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:46 PM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
And again, stop assuming that the drivers are telling you how they really feel when you talk to them as a client.
Speaking of assumptions ... perhaps I should clarify. Friends who drive for Uber enjoy it.
posted by kanewai at 1:52 PM on February 14, 2015
Speaking of assumptions ... perhaps I should clarify. Friends who drive for Uber enjoy it.
posted by kanewai at 1:52 PM on February 14, 2015
Alright, then how do you explain the several driver protests that have occurred? From what I hear and read, drivers aren't happy because they keep getting the short end of the stick, but have to play nice, because Uber can easily fire them. Not to mention that what numbers they don't report speaks just as loudly a what they do.
You'll pardon me if I'm a bit sanguine about how they're treating drivers, and that drivers might not feel able to openly voice their dissatisfaction lest the company just fire them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:05 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
You'll pardon me if I'm a bit sanguine about how they're treating drivers, and that drivers might not feel able to openly voice their dissatisfaction lest the company just fire them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:05 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sanguine?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 2:36 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 2:36 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Daedric Lord in The Elder Scrolls. It threw me at first too.
posted by um at 3:59 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by um at 3:59 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the ironic things I've seen routinely with Uber defenders is their complaints that cabs won't accept credit cards,
Which is ridiculous because CABS DO ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS. Livery cars maybe not, but cabs? Yep.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 PM on February 14, 2015
Which is ridiculous because CABS DO ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS. Livery cars maybe not, but cabs? Yep.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 PM on February 14, 2015
For a lot of people "taxi" means "livery cabs". Yellow and green taxi cabs in NYC do accept credit cards, yes, but that doesn't mean that cabs in other places accept cards.
Also, you can use Uber to hail a yellow cab but Uber charges you , I believe, 2 dollars for the hailing as they don't make any money of it and you pay the driver the same way you would if you flagged them down.
There have been apps for flagging down yellow cabs for a while it seems. Also, holy hell, Uber is 6 years old??! (The article said: "Uber, which began operating in New York last year," which made me look up on Wikipedia how old Uber is. March of 2009. Wtf?)
posted by I-baLL at 4:43 PM on February 14, 2015
Also, you can use Uber to hail a yellow cab but Uber charges you , I believe, 2 dollars for the hailing as they don't make any money of it and you pay the driver the same way you would if you flagged them down.
There have been apps for flagging down yellow cabs for a while it seems. Also, holy hell, Uber is 6 years old??! (The article said: "Uber, which began operating in New York last year," which made me look up on Wikipedia how old Uber is. March of 2009. Wtf?)
posted by I-baLL at 4:43 PM on February 14, 2015
I-baLL: "What would you consider to be proper regulation for Uber and AirBnb? I'm genuinely asking."
Uber: their cars should have to meet the same safety inspection regime that other for hire companies have to. In BC that is a provincially certified inspection every six months (I think). Driver's should have to carry a taxi level liability insurance and have a chauffeur's licence. My understanding is UberX does not require these things.
In Canada residences have different fire, safety, and accessibility regulation standards than hotels (in all cases the hotels are the more expensive standard). Meeting these elevated standards would be the first thing I would expect of AirBnb owners. Parking requirements are often different (though not always to the detriment of hotels).
I'd also like to see AirBnB operators with more than a few nights of rentals annually pay appropriate hotel taxes if they don't already.
emptythought: "
And that's assuming they ever showed up at all. Which almost never happens. i have never had a lyft or uber fail to show, or take more than maybe 10 minutes. it might cost more if it's some super busy time or a holiday or whatever, but they show up. I've seriously sat in a house for hours waiting for a cab before, that just never ever showed up."
You know why this is? Because cab companies are sized and staffed to keep their fleet working so when it's busy or when it is so slow that their are only a few drivers working then availability suffers. Uber is exploiting drivers by defacto requiring longer on call times without compensation.
>>> "Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old.
It's nice knowing that the car I call will be reliable."
When it comes to commercial transport reliability has only the weakest correlation with age. A five year old, lightly used car that is converted for taxi service is going to have way less wear than than a 2 year old car that has been in taxi service since day one. How reliable either is is a function of maintenance not age. Age requirements are purely for marketing. The marketing angle is obvious in locations where an airport licence has a more restrictive age limit than a taxi licence.
posted by Mitheral at 6:24 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Uber: their cars should have to meet the same safety inspection regime that other for hire companies have to. In BC that is a provincially certified inspection every six months (I think). Driver's should have to carry a taxi level liability insurance and have a chauffeur's licence. My understanding is UberX does not require these things.
In Canada residences have different fire, safety, and accessibility regulation standards than hotels (in all cases the hotels are the more expensive standard). Meeting these elevated standards would be the first thing I would expect of AirBnb owners. Parking requirements are often different (though not always to the detriment of hotels).
I'd also like to see AirBnB operators with more than a few nights of rentals annually pay appropriate hotel taxes if they don't already.
emptythought: "
And that's assuming they ever showed up at all. Which almost never happens. i have never had a lyft or uber fail to show, or take more than maybe 10 minutes. it might cost more if it's some super busy time or a holiday or whatever, but they show up. I've seriously sat in a house for hours waiting for a cab before, that just never ever showed up."
You know why this is? Because cab companies are sized and staffed to keep their fleet working so when it's busy or when it is so slow that their are only a few drivers working then availability suffers. Uber is exploiting drivers by defacto requiring longer on call times without compensation.
>>> "Don't 'deactivate' anyone because their car is too old.
It's nice knowing that the car I call will be reliable."
When it comes to commercial transport reliability has only the weakest correlation with age. A five year old, lightly used car that is converted for taxi service is going to have way less wear than than a 2 year old car that has been in taxi service since day one. How reliable either is is a function of maintenance not age. Age requirements are purely for marketing. The marketing angle is obvious in locations where an airport licence has a more restrictive age limit than a taxi licence.
posted by Mitheral at 6:24 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
That depends – here in DC, the cabs are legally required to take credit cards but everyone I know who regularly uses them carries tons of cash because the drivers almost universally lie about the card reader being broken. It's not clear if that's so they can skim some of the cash or so the company doesn't have to eat the transaction fee but it's been the best thing to happen to Uber.One of the ironic things I've seen routinely with Uber defenders is their complaints that cabs won't accept credit cardsWhich is ridiculous because CABS DO ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS. Livery cars maybe not, but cabs? Yep.
posted by adamsc at 6:25 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that observation doesn't reveal hypocrisy anyway--there's no contradiction between wanting taxis to also accept a form of payment that excludes segments of the population and not wanting Uber to require a form of payment that excludes segments of the population.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 10:17 PM on February 14, 2015
posted by Joseph Gurl at 10:17 PM on February 14, 2015
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