When sex won't work
February 17, 2015 4:24 AM Subscribe
When my first boyfriend literally couldn’t penetrate me, I assumed we were just doing it wrong. But I was actually living with a rare and confounding condition that made sex impossible.Swati Khurana describes living with vaginismus.
I'm gonna finish tfa, but I'm dismayed that in the first few paragraphs, "having sex" and "making love" are both presented as identical to vaginal penetration by a penis. Just last week I was trying to trouble this notion with an intro class.
/knee-jerk reaction.
posted by allthinky at 6:08 AM on February 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
/knee-jerk reaction.
posted by allthinky at 6:08 AM on February 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
I'm dismayed that in the first few paragraphs, "having sex" and "making love" are both presented as identical to vaginal penetration by a penis.
seriously, 'hiding the salami' says it so much better.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:31 AM on February 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
seriously, 'hiding the salami' says it so much better.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:31 AM on February 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yeah, I noticed that too, allthinky, but I can understand why even though vaginal penentration isn't the end and be all of sex and making love, it is important, especially in our current societies.
There's also of course always a difference about not wanting P-i-V sex and not being able to have it for one reason or another and it's not a judgment on those not wanting/needing it when somebody who does want it, but can't, worries about it.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's also of course always a difference about not wanting P-i-V sex and not being able to have it for one reason or another and it's not a judgment on those not wanting/needing it when somebody who does want it, but can't, worries about it.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
all-thinky: I had the same reaction - you can make love without penetration.
But for opposite sex relationships, p-in-v has a cultural weight which is hard to ignore. It's expected at a certain point, which maybe it shouldn't be, but both partners can often feel "unsatisfied" without it.
posted by jb at 6:39 AM on February 17, 2015
But for opposite sex relationships, p-in-v has a cultural weight which is hard to ignore. It's expected at a certain point, which maybe it shouldn't be, but both partners can often feel "unsatisfied" without it.
posted by jb at 6:39 AM on February 17, 2015
Oh, I totally get why it's important! I just wish a slightly more nuanced vocab had been used. :-) And then ... I dunno, the whole "real woman" trope kind of comes in when she has her daughter.
Again, it's terribly important on an individual basis, but lots of women can't give birth -- many women don't even have vaginas! So I think there's got to be a way for the writer to express her experiences without calling on all of these gender-/hetero-normative "omigod if i can't "have sex" i can't be normal!" notions.
posted by allthinky at 6:45 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Again, it's terribly important on an individual basis, but lots of women can't give birth -- many women don't even have vaginas! So I think there's got to be a way for the writer to express her experiences without calling on all of these gender-/hetero-normative "omigod if i can't "have sex" i can't be normal!" notions.
posted by allthinky at 6:45 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
It has to be a major challenge when writing an autobiographical piece of any stripe - balancing the truth of the individual experience being recounted, which may well be tied up in all sorts of *-normative notions, while at the same time couching it in language which does not reinforce those notions or at the very least alienate the audience members for whom those notions are not the norm at all.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:30 AM on February 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:30 AM on February 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
So glad she got a happy ending. I want my happy ending too. I have tried so hard. So far I've seen four gynecologists, four physios, two gastroenterologists, one rheumatologist, three therapists, had surgery, tried and had to stop eleven different medications due to side effects, tried three different diets, tried mindfulness, not worn pants for 3.5 years and drastically changed my exercise habits. I have vulvodynia in addition to vaginismus and, fuck, it's exhausting. What's the one thing you'd change about your body? My broken vagina, please.
I usually call what my husband and I do together sex and I call out vaginal intercourse as a separate thing, but sometimes you just feel angry and wish you could have sex like a "normal" person and I'm not going to judge anyone for feeling that way.
posted by carolr at 7:31 AM on February 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
I usually call what my husband and I do together sex and I call out vaginal intercourse as a separate thing, but sometimes you just feel angry and wish you could have sex like a "normal" person and I'm not going to judge anyone for feeling that way.
posted by carolr at 7:31 AM on February 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
I'm dismayed that in the first few paragraphs, "having sex" and "making love" are both presented as identical to vaginal penetration by a penis.
Reality as most people know it dismays you? There's nothing "current societies" about male/female penetrative sex. If a woman honestly expressing her disappointment that she cannot have sex in the manner she wants to makes you cluck your tongue in disapproval, then whose interests are you fighting for? Certainly not hers. Sexual liberation still means that most people will be most interested in P-i-V sex.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:36 AM on February 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
Reality as most people know it dismays you? There's nothing "current societies" about male/female penetrative sex. If a woman honestly expressing her disappointment that she cannot have sex in the manner she wants to makes you cluck your tongue in disapproval, then whose interests are you fighting for? Certainly not hers. Sexual liberation still means that most people will be most interested in P-i-V sex.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:36 AM on February 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
The phrase "making love" refers to a very specific kind of sex.
posted by Flashman at 8:41 AM on February 17, 2015
posted by Flashman at 8:41 AM on February 17, 2015
Reality as most people know it dismays you?
Well a lot of reality is pretty shitty, actually. I'm glad this woman found a way to make hers a little less so.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:14 AM on February 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well a lot of reality is pretty shitty, actually. I'm glad this woman found a way to make hers a little less so.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:14 AM on February 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reality as most people know it dismays you?
Why yes, yes it does.
That doesn't stop me from being happy for her, that she got what she wanted. I just wish as a culture we could, among other things, stop suggesting that "same-sex" couples, gender non-normative people, and all kinds of folks with funky bodies don't or can't have sex.
posted by allthinky at 11:01 AM on February 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Why yes, yes it does.
That doesn't stop me from being happy for her, that she got what she wanted. I just wish as a culture we could, among other things, stop suggesting that "same-sex" couples, gender non-normative people, and all kinds of folks with funky bodies don't or can't have sex.
posted by allthinky at 11:01 AM on February 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think for two heterosexuals, coitus is absolutely "having sex," (or at least not performing coitus diminishes the act significantly) and especially to someone who is in a loving relationship and desires coitus but cannot have it for physical reasons, it will certainly feel that "sex is impossible" to that individual.
That the definition of "having sex" or "making love" varies among different communities and in different relationships is a semantic distraction from the points being made in the article, and personally I feel that the terms were used appropriately with the context considered.
posted by unknownmosquito at 11:09 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
That the definition of "having sex" or "making love" varies among different communities and in different relationships is a semantic distraction from the points being made in the article, and personally I feel that the terms were used appropriately with the context considered.
posted by unknownmosquito at 11:09 AM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think that the article is best read with the understood premise that the author wanted a particular type of intimate experience and her body wouldn't allow it. Some people might not be into having that particular experience, which is okay, but she did. She sounds like an open-minded enough person that I'm sure just forgoing it and doing other things with partners occurred to her.
It's wonderful that she got effective treatment; I've known friends who have gone many, many years because they got bad advice from doctors or were just treated dismissively. I suspect it is far more common than most people realize, just by virtue of not being talked about much.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:05 PM on February 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
It's wonderful that she got effective treatment; I've known friends who have gone many, many years because they got bad advice from doctors or were just treated dismissively. I suspect it is far more common than most people realize, just by virtue of not being talked about much.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:05 PM on February 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
I just wish as a culture we could, among other things, stop suggesting that "same-sex" couples, gender non-normative people, and all kinds of folks with funky bodies don't or can't have sex.
I think you're reading into the article things that aren't there. This woman, this heterosexual woman, this heterosexual woman who is happy in her gender and has a vagina, wanted to have penis-in-vagina sex. This woman was afraid of parenting a daughter and having a vaginal delivery. Then, she was able to have a vaginal delivery.
THAT IS A WIN.
And she in no way, in the entire article, degrades people who want different things. She is talking about herself and her experience. She's not suggesting that other people couldn't have sex - she's saying that she, herself, could not have what she considered to be sex for her.
posted by corb at 1:27 PM on February 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think you're reading into the article things that aren't there. This woman, this heterosexual woman, this heterosexual woman who is happy in her gender and has a vagina, wanted to have penis-in-vagina sex. This woman was afraid of parenting a daughter and having a vaginal delivery. Then, she was able to have a vaginal delivery.
THAT IS A WIN.
And she in no way, in the entire article, degrades people who want different things. She is talking about herself and her experience. She's not suggesting that other people couldn't have sex - she's saying that she, herself, could not have what she considered to be sex for her.
posted by corb at 1:27 PM on February 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think you're reading into the article things that aren't there.
Problem is, those things are background in society. And she never makes any affirmative statements in support of people who want different things/can't have PIV. And she talks penis-in-vagina sex using the same language used by the many, many shitty people who do think less of the sexual activities of queer people, non-cis gendered people, and others. That line about how her marriage of four years hadn't been "consummated" because she hadn't had PIV? I've actually heard a relative speculate that my lesbian aunt and her partner of 30+ years haven't really had sex because they haven't had PIV.
So between the background and the language, I spent a lot of time wondering if she was going to drop something explicitly homophobic or transphobic into the story. And that's as a cis, basically-straight person.
Which isn't to say that I didn't enjoy reading the article, or that I didn't do a little cheer for her when she got a happy ending. But given the shitty background radiation of homophobia and transphobia in the world, a short statement that she knows PIV isn't the end-all and be-all for everyone, and that some people are perfectly happy in relationships without it, but she wasn't -- that would've made her article better.
(Side note: just because the sexual partners mentioned in the story have all been dudes doesn't mean she is heterosexual. Bisexuals and all that.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:05 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Problem is, those things are background in society. And she never makes any affirmative statements in support of people who want different things/can't have PIV. And she talks penis-in-vagina sex using the same language used by the many, many shitty people who do think less of the sexual activities of queer people, non-cis gendered people, and others. That line about how her marriage of four years hadn't been "consummated" because she hadn't had PIV? I've actually heard a relative speculate that my lesbian aunt and her partner of 30+ years haven't really had sex because they haven't had PIV.
So between the background and the language, I spent a lot of time wondering if she was going to drop something explicitly homophobic or transphobic into the story. And that's as a cis, basically-straight person.
Which isn't to say that I didn't enjoy reading the article, or that I didn't do a little cheer for her when she got a happy ending. But given the shitty background radiation of homophobia and transphobia in the world, a short statement that she knows PIV isn't the end-all and be-all for everyone, and that some people are perfectly happy in relationships without it, but she wasn't -- that would've made her article better.
(Side note: just because the sexual partners mentioned in the story have all been dudes doesn't mean she is heterosexual. Bisexuals and all that.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:05 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
she never makes any affirmative statements in support of people who want different things/can't have PIV.
She was writing about her own lived experience, she wasn't writing in general about what sex means to other people. She was writing about what sex was to her.
posted by billiebee at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
She was writing about her own lived experience, she wasn't writing in general about what sex means to other people. She was writing about what sex was to her.
posted by billiebee at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
She was writing about what sex was to her.
Which is cool! Which is awesome! The sexual desires and needs of women have traditionally not gotten nearly enough attention in literary circles! I enjoyed the article, and I'm not trying to talk shit about it.
I'm just pointing out a way that it could have been better, both from a writing perspective (in that at least certain readers could've been assured that she wasn't about to drop something awful about the LGBT community, and would have had a chance to really groove on her writing) and from a yay! ladies telling awesome lady stories! standpoint.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:39 PM on February 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which is cool! Which is awesome! The sexual desires and needs of women have traditionally not gotten nearly enough attention in literary circles! I enjoyed the article, and I'm not trying to talk shit about it.
I'm just pointing out a way that it could have been better, both from a writing perspective (in that at least certain readers could've been assured that she wasn't about to drop something awful about the LGBT community, and would have had a chance to really groove on her writing) and from a yay! ladies telling awesome lady stories! standpoint.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:39 PM on February 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I disagree. This was about her, not you, not anyone else, and it seems incendiary for you to be all "well, how cis normative", like that's a surprise in an article about a biological woman with a vagina talking about her vagina.
posted by dejah420 at 2:56 PM on February 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by dejah420 at 2:56 PM on February 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
readers could've been assured that she wasn't about to drop something awful about the LGBT community
This is the part that interests me. Is the concept that, the toxicity of our media climate vis non-cis-hetero-p-i-v sexuality being so pronounced, when a woman writes about her very intimate and personal p-i-v sexual struggle, the absence of conspicuous positive affirmation for other sexualities infers a soon-to-drop needle of intolerance and phobia?
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is the part that interests me. Is the concept that, the toxicity of our media climate vis non-cis-hetero-p-i-v sexuality being so pronounced, when a woman writes about her very intimate and personal p-i-v sexual struggle, the absence of conspicuous positive affirmation for other sexualities infers a soon-to-drop needle of intolerance and phobia?
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
I recognise the validity of those criticisms, but sometimes, when people are talking about very personal things that are often not talked about, saying "this is how you could say it better!" is effectively silencing them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:00 PM on February 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:00 PM on February 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
it seems incendiary for you to be all "well, how cis normative" like that's a surprise in an article about a biological woman with a vagina talking about her vagina.
the absence of conspicuous positive affirmation for other sexualities infers a soon-to-drop needle of intolerance and phobia?
saying "this is how you could say it better!" is effectively silencing them.
Wait, gently suggesting that an already-good article would have been even better if it had a single sentence that reassured people that, despite language that looked very much like language frequently used to put down LGBT individuals, this article wasn't going to be like that -- that's too "conspicuous"? Or "silencing"? Or "incendiary"?
Again: I'm not saying the article was shitty. I'm not saying the article was poorly written. Like I said before, multiple times at this point, I liked the article, and I think it's a valuable article. I'm not pulling BUT WHAT ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE???? or BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN?????? here.
(By the way, dejah420, I do not know if you are trans, and if you are, I will totally retract the entirety of this parenthetical, but many trans people that I know do not favor calling a cis woman a "biological woman", because it suggests that trans women don't have the bodies or biology of women until they transition in some specified way, and/or that trans women do not have a biological basis for being trans.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:44 PM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
the absence of conspicuous positive affirmation for other sexualities infers a soon-to-drop needle of intolerance and phobia?
saying "this is how you could say it better!" is effectively silencing them.
Wait, gently suggesting that an already-good article would have been even better if it had a single sentence that reassured people that, despite language that looked very much like language frequently used to put down LGBT individuals, this article wasn't going to be like that -- that's too "conspicuous"? Or "silencing"? Or "incendiary"?
Again: I'm not saying the article was shitty. I'm not saying the article was poorly written. Like I said before, multiple times at this point, I liked the article, and I think it's a valuable article. I'm not pulling BUT WHAT ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE???? or BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN?????? here.
(By the way, dejah420, I do not know if you are trans, and if you are, I will totally retract the entirety of this parenthetical, but many trans people that I know do not favor calling a cis woman a "biological woman", because it suggests that trans women don't have the bodies or biology of women until they transition in some specified way, and/or that trans women do not have a biological basis for being trans.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:44 PM on February 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
It seems very clear from her writing that a relentlessly cisnormative, heteronormative, and sexist culture played a big part in the nature and extent of her suffering. One can be compassionate and empathetic while also being frustrated to see the same structures causing the same pain over and over in so many people (of all kinds).
Dismantling the deeply socialized sexual framework that exalts concepts like virginity, consummation, "deflowering," gender roles, ~mysterious ladybits~, etc. is an important part of keeping other people in the future from experiencing this kind of heartbreaking fear and shame.
posted by Corinth at 4:06 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Dismantling the deeply socialized sexual framework that exalts concepts like virginity, consummation, "deflowering," gender roles, ~mysterious ladybits~, etc. is an important part of keeping other people in the future from experiencing this kind of heartbreaking fear and shame.
posted by Corinth at 4:06 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I recognise the validity of those criticisms, but sometimes, when people are talking about very personal things that are often not talked about, saying "this is how you could say it better!" is effectively silencing them.
I think you're missing the point that the sort of rhetoric put forth in this article (which posits PIV-intercourse as the only "valid" form of sex) implicitly invalidates the experiences and many queer and trans folks -- another form of silencing. Like other folks in this thread have alluded to, this discourse renders many queer relationships and trans identities less "real" to society, which lead to things like violence, denial of rights, etc.
Obviously this is based in her personal experience, but that doesn't render that the way in which she relays it immune from critique, nor ensure that her storytelling doesn't reproduce oppressive societal values.
posted by kylej at 6:22 PM on February 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think you're missing the point that the sort of rhetoric put forth in this article (which posits PIV-intercourse as the only "valid" form of sex) implicitly invalidates the experiences and many queer and trans folks -- another form of silencing. Like other folks in this thread have alluded to, this discourse renders many queer relationships and trans identities less "real" to society, which lead to things like violence, denial of rights, etc.
Obviously this is based in her personal experience, but that doesn't render that the way in which she relays it immune from critique, nor ensure that her storytelling doesn't reproduce oppressive societal values.
posted by kylej at 6:22 PM on February 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Let's constantly remind ourselves that the sharing of individual cisnormative heteronormative experiences implicitly silences others!
Let's utterly disregard the experience of this woman!
posted by motty at 7:09 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Let's utterly disregard the experience of this woman!
posted by motty at 7:09 PM on February 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
At the very least, she wanted to have kids and would prefer to have PIV sex for that reason at bare minimum.
My impression of hetero relationships is that if PIV is off the table and you can only ever resort to other methods, it's still going to bother folks that they can't do PIV. It's kinda like having Thanksgiving dinner, but you can't have turkey and all you're eating for dinner is some side dishes and pie. Which is not to say that a dinner of side dishes and pie can't be good, but there's a lot of expectation that ladies (especially given the reproduction issues) need to ah, provide that main dish.
But good for her for finally getting what she wanted there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:00 PM on February 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
My impression of hetero relationships is that if PIV is off the table and you can only ever resort to other methods, it's still going to bother folks that they can't do PIV. It's kinda like having Thanksgiving dinner, but you can't have turkey and all you're eating for dinner is some side dishes and pie. Which is not to say that a dinner of side dishes and pie can't be good, but there's a lot of expectation that ladies (especially given the reproduction issues) need to ah, provide that main dish.
But good for her for finally getting what she wanted there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:00 PM on February 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, there is a point where criticising what the article isn't becomes a roadblock to talking about what it *is*, and I think we're at that point.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:19 PM on February 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:19 PM on February 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Now, Swati Khurana: your story is wonderful. I've known a lover who struggled with this, and OMGOMGOMG is it an emotional minefield. I couldn't be happier for you.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:13 PM on February 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by IAmBroom at 5:13 PM on February 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
She was writing about her own lived experience, she wasn't writing in general about what sex means to other people. She was writing about what sex was to her.
I think that people in opposite sex relationships - and I count myself among them - might be well served by a wider definition of sex/making love. If penetrative sex is seen as one of many forms of making love, then these kind of issues are not as bad. (Still bad, but not the same level). Lots of people have trouble with penetrative sex, due to vaginismus, erectile disfunction, vaginitis, or simple latex allergies.
We can recognise the significance of vaginal intercourse to her - and at the same time see that the treatment for problems like these can multifold: specific treatments to try to allow one to have the kind of sex one would like, but also rethinking what sex can mean to fit in with personal situations.
posted by jb at 8:11 PM on February 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that people in opposite sex relationships - and I count myself among them - might be well served by a wider definition of sex/making love. If penetrative sex is seen as one of many forms of making love, then these kind of issues are not as bad. (Still bad, but not the same level). Lots of people have trouble with penetrative sex, due to vaginismus, erectile disfunction, vaginitis, or simple latex allergies.
We can recognise the significance of vaginal intercourse to her - and at the same time see that the treatment for problems like these can multifold: specific treatments to try to allow one to have the kind of sex one would like, but also rethinking what sex can mean to fit in with personal situations.
posted by jb at 8:11 PM on February 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
She's a person with a vagina who wants to have PIV sex. Can we address the article from that angle, instead of from "why didn't she mention that sex can occur in a multitude of ways and combinations of genitals"?
posted by Lexica at 8:20 PM on February 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 8:20 PM on February 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't tell whether that's late a pile-on to joyceanmachine or a response to me. Do you really not think that garbage socialization and garbage culture play a large role in feelings of shame and inadequacy about sex? The pushback here against basic feminist analysis of her problems seems completely bizarre to me. She is not the only one struggling with that problem or other similar problems, and yet we're not supposed to discuss those problems in any sort of larger context?
This thread is a giant fucking example of how society relentlessly beats down on people who can't or don't precisely conform to bullshit stereotypes, tropes, media depictions, gender roles, bodies, whatever. Shit like this, writ large across society as a whole, is why the author felt so much emotional and psychological pain. Yes, there's plenty of pain to be had just in dealing with your physical irregularities - but this woman was "terrified" that having "an annulment would be admitting I was a sexual failure." She was scared of being identified as a virgin. She specifically worried about not being able to live up to depictions of women on television or have PiV sex on Valentine's Day. She talked about the fear of parenting a daughter "given my own shame." That shit didn't happen all on its own! That happened because of the constant bombardment of nonsense about what sex is supposed to be, what your body is supposed to be and how you're supposed to use it and feel about it!
I'm a woman who can't have PiV sex with a cis man, like the author was. It's been said in here that I apparently can't "make love," and that the sex I can have with straight cis men is "unsatisfying." There are repeated assertions of the unquestionable primacy of the status quo and rigid gender essentialist definitions of heterosexual sex, along with theories that the kind of hetero sex I can have must be "diminished." There are aggressive misunderstandings of the concept of cisnormativity, and people assuming their favorite kind of hetero sex is the only kind of hetero sex and that other kinds of hetero sex are inherently unsatisfying.
This is part of the problem. Really. It already sucks dealing with issues like hers without this angry, reactionary defense of the same cultural bullshit that actively makes them worse.
posted by Corinth at 2:24 AM on February 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
This thread is a giant fucking example of how society relentlessly beats down on people who can't or don't precisely conform to bullshit stereotypes, tropes, media depictions, gender roles, bodies, whatever. Shit like this, writ large across society as a whole, is why the author felt so much emotional and psychological pain. Yes, there's plenty of pain to be had just in dealing with your physical irregularities - but this woman was "terrified" that having "an annulment would be admitting I was a sexual failure." She was scared of being identified as a virgin. She specifically worried about not being able to live up to depictions of women on television or have PiV sex on Valentine's Day. She talked about the fear of parenting a daughter "given my own shame." That shit didn't happen all on its own! That happened because of the constant bombardment of nonsense about what sex is supposed to be, what your body is supposed to be and how you're supposed to use it and feel about it!
I'm a woman who can't have PiV sex with a cis man, like the author was. It's been said in here that I apparently can't "make love," and that the sex I can have with straight cis men is "unsatisfying." There are repeated assertions of the unquestionable primacy of the status quo and rigid gender essentialist definitions of heterosexual sex, along with theories that the kind of hetero sex I can have must be "diminished." There are aggressive misunderstandings of the concept of cisnormativity, and people assuming their favorite kind of hetero sex is the only kind of hetero sex and that other kinds of hetero sex are inherently unsatisfying.
This is part of the problem. Really. It already sucks dealing with issues like hers without this angry, reactionary defense of the same cultural bullshit that actively makes them worse.
posted by Corinth at 2:24 AM on February 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
It already sucks dealing with issues like hers without this angry, reactionary defense of the same cultural bullshit that actively makes them worse
The reactionary defense is not of the fact that there aren't other ways of having sex, but that she is being accused of telling her story in the wrong way. She was writing about her feelings about this specific medical issue which specifically prevented her from having the kind of sex she wanted to have. Is there a wider debate to be had about educating people that there are many ways to enjoy and explore our sexual desires, and we shouldn't feel shame about not being able to do things "right"? Sure. But this is not a debate she was speaking to, and it feels kind of off to tell someone who was open about a difficult personal issue that she was selfish in not talking about issues other people have instead. I thought we were supposed to listen to people when they talk about their experiences, and not dismiss them with "but what about..."
posted by billiebee at 5:16 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The reactionary defense is not of the fact that there aren't other ways of having sex, but that she is being accused of telling her story in the wrong way. She was writing about her feelings about this specific medical issue which specifically prevented her from having the kind of sex she wanted to have. Is there a wider debate to be had about educating people that there are many ways to enjoy and explore our sexual desires, and we shouldn't feel shame about not being able to do things "right"? Sure. But this is not a debate she was speaking to, and it feels kind of off to tell someone who was open about a difficult personal issue that she was selfish in not talking about issues other people have instead. I thought we were supposed to listen to people when they talk about their experiences, and not dismiss them with "but what about..."
posted by billiebee at 5:16 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with Billiebee re: the genesis of the pushback in this thread, but the resulting commentary has veered pretty far into the territory that Corinth is talking about.
I would read a feminist analysis of the article - it is rich with flowery romance-novel-style language that screams for deconstruction.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:05 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would read a feminist analysis of the article - it is rich with flowery romance-novel-style language that screams for deconstruction.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:05 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Speaking of the need for some basic feminist analysis (as Corinth mentioned), I'm confused by the insistence on separating the personal from the political that seems to keep cropping up in this thread.
posted by overglow at 11:12 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by overglow at 11:12 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's been said in here that I apparently can't "make love," and that the sex I can have with straight cis men is "unsatisfying."
Literally no person here has said that. People have said that often non-PiV sex for het couples is unsatisfying to those het couples. No one is talking about you. If you manage to have a great sex life outside of PiV sex, mazel tov! But we're not talking about you or your experience. We are talking about the woman who is writing an article about her own experience, and it is incredibly offensive for you to assume that she must be just poorly socialized or buying into destructive bullshit for her own desires about her own sex life.
We are not having angry, reactionary defense of cultural bullshit. We are having angry, reactionary defense of letting this one woman talk about her own lived experience without shitting on her for not being inclusive enough - which, you know, carries a lot of cultural baggage too, with the implication that women can't just talk about themselves and their own stuff and own issues but must save the entire world with their every statement.
posted by corb at 11:23 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Literally no person here has said that. People have said that often non-PiV sex for het couples is unsatisfying to those het couples. No one is talking about you. If you manage to have a great sex life outside of PiV sex, mazel tov! But we're not talking about you or your experience. We are talking about the woman who is writing an article about her own experience, and it is incredibly offensive for you to assume that she must be just poorly socialized or buying into destructive bullshit for her own desires about her own sex life.
We are not having angry, reactionary defense of cultural bullshit. We are having angry, reactionary defense of letting this one woman talk about her own lived experience without shitting on her for not being inclusive enough - which, you know, carries a lot of cultural baggage too, with the implication that women can't just talk about themselves and their own stuff and own issues but must save the entire world with their every statement.
posted by corb at 11:23 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
It seems very clear from her writing that a relentlessly cisnormative, heteronormative, and sexist culture played a big part in the nature and extent of her suffering. One can be compassionate and empathetic while also being frustrated to see the same structures causing the same pain over and over in so many people (of all kinds).
Thank you, Corinth, I was sputtering around trying to write a reply that made this exact point, which you did beautifully.
Like joyceanmachine, I'm perfectly happy that this particular woman got her particular happy ending from her particular perspective of her particular sex life. But we read personal essays like this -- we as total strangers to this woman who don't know her personally -- because we can relate in some way. It's not off-topic or silencing the author to think about her experiences and the issues she's raised in broader terms.
posted by desuetude at 11:48 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thank you, Corinth, I was sputtering around trying to write a reply that made this exact point, which you did beautifully.
Like joyceanmachine, I'm perfectly happy that this particular woman got her particular happy ending from her particular perspective of her particular sex life. But we read personal essays like this -- we as total strangers to this woman who don't know her personally -- because we can relate in some way. It's not off-topic or silencing the author to think about her experiences and the issues she's raised in broader terms.
posted by desuetude at 11:48 AM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
"She was writing about her feelings about this specific medical issue which specifically prevented her from having the kind of sex she wanted to have."
And she also wrote about how it made her feel, which was - given that her story takes place in a culture in which not being able to or desiring to have The One True Kind Of Sex In The Right Way is supposed to make you feel shitty - shitty. She makes specific cultural callouts: The women on TV. Valentine's Day. She mentions her fear of being known to be a virgin at least twice, for chrissakes. I can't tell if we're reading different essays or what.
posted by Corinth at 1:18 PM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
And she also wrote about how it made her feel, which was - given that her story takes place in a culture in which not being able to or desiring to have The One True Kind Of Sex In The Right Way is supposed to make you feel shitty - shitty. She makes specific cultural callouts: The women on TV. Valentine's Day. She mentions her fear of being known to be a virgin at least twice, for chrissakes. I can't tell if we're reading different essays or what.
posted by Corinth at 1:18 PM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
We're all reading the same essay. Perhaps we should take the focus off of how she could have written it better - which is what caused this kerfuffle - and place it on what the nature of her text implies about the cultural forces that shaped her worldview.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:33 PM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:33 PM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Perhaps we should take the focus off of how she could have written it better - which is what caused this kerfuffle - and place it on what the nature of her text implies about the cultural forces that shaped her worldview.
Thanks, I think this is really insightful. It's a good reminder to be less individualistic in how we're framing this. From my perspective, it's not her fault--or any specific person's fault--that we're all swimming in a culture pervaded by all sorts of toxic messages about bodies and pleasure (especially women's bodies and pleasures) and about how certain kinds of sex are more important or more real and thus implicitly that other kinds of sex are less valid and maybe icky (especially kinds of sex that differ from the norm of cis hetero PiV sex).
Maybe this is idealistic of me, but my impulse is for a multiplication and profusion of narratives. For a space in which the narratives of people who felt excluded, whose hackles were raised as they read the article, can be heard as well as the original story, as well as the stories of other women (and people with vaginas who don't identify as women) dealing with similar issues. For Corinth's story and carolr's story and many more.
posted by overglow at 3:12 PM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thanks, I think this is really insightful. It's a good reminder to be less individualistic in how we're framing this. From my perspective, it's not her fault--or any specific person's fault--that we're all swimming in a culture pervaded by all sorts of toxic messages about bodies and pleasure (especially women's bodies and pleasures) and about how certain kinds of sex are more important or more real and thus implicitly that other kinds of sex are less valid and maybe icky (especially kinds of sex that differ from the norm of cis hetero PiV sex).
Maybe this is idealistic of me, but my impulse is for a multiplication and profusion of narratives. For a space in which the narratives of people who felt excluded, whose hackles were raised as they read the article, can be heard as well as the original story, as well as the stories of other women (and people with vaginas who don't identify as women) dealing with similar issues. For Corinth's story and carolr's story and many more.
posted by overglow at 3:12 PM on February 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
billiebee: The reactionary defense is not of the fact that there aren't other ways of having sex, but that she is being accused of telling her story in the wrong way. She was writing about her feelings about this specific medical issue which specifically prevented her from having the kind of sex she wanted to have. Is there a wider debate to be had about educating people that there are many ways to enjoy and explore our sexual desires, and we shouldn't feel shame about not being able to do things "right"? Sure. But this is not a debate she was speaking to, and it feels kind of off to tell someone who was open about a difficult personal issue that she was selfish in not talking about issues other people have instead. I thought we were supposed to listen to people when they talk about their experiences, and not dismiss them with "but what about..."
She could've talked about her own problems in a way that didn't reify the problematic status quo and erase queer and trans people and their experiences entirely. Like, yeah, she totally gets to be concerned about whatever the hell she wants to, but you have to be wary of making categorical statements about women, sex, relationships, and so on, because that shit does NOT just refer to you as an individual.
corb: Literally no person here has said that.
Did you actually read the comments that Corinth linked to? Like, at all? Because that is most certainly what they say, if not explicitly then between the lines.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 AM on February 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
She could've talked about her own problems in a way that didn't reify the problematic status quo and erase queer and trans people and their experiences entirely. Like, yeah, she totally gets to be concerned about whatever the hell she wants to, but you have to be wary of making categorical statements about women, sex, relationships, and so on, because that shit does NOT just refer to you as an individual.
corb: Literally no person here has said that.
Did you actually read the comments that Corinth linked to? Like, at all? Because that is most certainly what they say, if not explicitly then between the lines.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 AM on February 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
When you are talking about what other people's comments say "between the lines", you are not talking about things that can be objectively shown, and you run the risk of putting your own bias onto the comments that did not actually contain any offensive material.
posted by corb at 8:28 AM on February 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 8:28 AM on February 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Flashman said: The phrase "making love" refers to a very specific kind of sex.
Now, it's true that this doesn't explicitly say "PiV sex is the only kind of sex that counts as making love." But I'm not sure how else, in this context, to interpret that sentence. Can you explain how you interpret that sentence in a non-offensive way?
posted by overglow at 10:12 AM on February 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Now, it's true that this doesn't explicitly say "PiV sex is the only kind of sex that counts as making love." But I'm not sure how else, in this context, to interpret that sentence. Can you explain how you interpret that sentence in a non-offensive way?
posted by overglow at 10:12 AM on February 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
> We are having angry, reactionary defense of letting this one woman talk about her own lived experience without shitting on her for not being inclusive enough
Good grief, no one here is "shitting on" the author. There are no personal attacks on her, no one is saying she's a terrible person or that she's wrong about her own feelings. Criticism is not poop.
posted by desuetude at 10:13 AM on February 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Good grief, no one here is "shitting on" the author. There are no personal attacks on her, no one is saying she's a terrible person or that she's wrong about her own feelings. Criticism is not poop.
posted by desuetude at 10:13 AM on February 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've been thinking about this, and talking to someone over Memail about it (I hope that's ok to say) and I just wanted to say something. And that is that I've realised that while I genuinely feel that the author had a right to tell her story and I was annoyed at people implying she'd somehow got it "wrong", part of my reaction was a defensiveness that comes from cis het privilege. I didn't register at first the fact that the language could be construed as compounding the notion that certain types of sex are more "normal" than others. And if I'm being honest, which I'm trying to be because we're a community so I'm talking here to my fellow members, I was resentful that I was being forced to consider an othering that I hadn't considered because, well, I don't have to. It's not a problem I've faced. But it is right that it was pointed out, and only in seeing it pointed out am I able to incorporate it in my worldview and point it out myself next time I come across it. It is easy to be part of the majority, and it's uncomfortable to be faced with times when I'm blasé about that and someone calls it out.
So while I would feel awful if this woman was present in this thread, and we were telling her she was wrong, she's not. But Corinth and Dysk and others are. So I'm sorry for not listening to the people who are here while I defended those who aren't. I get what you're saying and I apologise for minimising your feelings about the language in the article. We are reading different essays, in a sense. The words on the page are the same but the lenses we're viewing them through are different. And it's good to be reminded that our views are different, and there can be something to be gained from trying to view things differently. I'll try to be more open in future.
posted by billiebee at 2:28 PM on February 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
So while I would feel awful if this woman was present in this thread, and we were telling her she was wrong, she's not. But Corinth and Dysk and others are. So I'm sorry for not listening to the people who are here while I defended those who aren't. I get what you're saying and I apologise for minimising your feelings about the language in the article. We are reading different essays, in a sense. The words on the page are the same but the lenses we're viewing them through are different. And it's good to be reminded that our views are different, and there can be something to be gained from trying to view things differently. I'll try to be more open in future.
posted by billiebee at 2:28 PM on February 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
This might just be the most Metafilter discussion in Metafilter history.
posted by CommonSense at 8:37 PM on February 24, 2015
posted by CommonSense at 8:37 PM on February 24, 2015
This might just be the most Metafilter discussion in Metafilter history.
I don't think you can use "Metafilter" as an adjective.
THERE. DONE.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:59 PM on February 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think you can use "Metafilter" as an adjective.
THERE. DONE.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:59 PM on February 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
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