A daring plan to rebuild Syria — no matter who wins the war
February 22, 2015 5:02 PM Subscribe
In terms of sheer devastation, Syria today is worse off than Germany at the end of World War II.
The first year of Syria’s uprising, 2011, largely spared Aleppo, the country’s economic engine, largest city, and home of its most prized heritage sites. Fighting engulfed Aleppo in 2012 and has never let up since, making the city a symbol of the civil war’s grinding destruction. Rebels captured the eastern side of the city while the government held the west. The regime dropped conventional munitions and then barrel bombs on the rebels, who fought back with rockets and mortars. In 2012, the historical Ottoman covered souk was destroyed. In 2013, shelling destroyed the storied minaret of the 11th-century Ummayid Mosque. Apartment blocks were reduced to rubble. More than 3 million residents fled, out of a prewar population of 5 million. Today, residents say the city is virtually uninhabitable; most who remain have nowhere else to go.
In downtown Beirut, a day’s drive from the worst of the war zone, a team of Syrians is undertaking an experiment without precedent.
The first year of Syria’s uprising, 2011, largely spared Aleppo, the country’s economic engine, largest city, and home of its most prized heritage sites. Fighting engulfed Aleppo in 2012 and has never let up since, making the city a symbol of the civil war’s grinding destruction. Rebels captured the eastern side of the city while the government held the west. The regime dropped conventional munitions and then barrel bombs on the rebels, who fought back with rockets and mortars. In 2012, the historical Ottoman covered souk was destroyed. In 2013, shelling destroyed the storied minaret of the 11th-century Ummayid Mosque. Apartment blocks were reduced to rubble. More than 3 million residents fled, out of a prewar population of 5 million. Today, residents say the city is virtually uninhabitable; most who remain have nowhere else to go.
In downtown Beirut, a day’s drive from the worst of the war zone, a team of Syrians is undertaking an experiment without precedent.
Good luck!
posted by Renoroc at 5:16 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Renoroc at 5:16 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Turkey Sends Troops into Syria to Retrieve Ottoman Tomb.
posted by clavdivs at 5:29 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:29 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about the Middle East in terms of WWII recently, my first thought was maybe it's a stage civilization has to go through at a point of development.
US 1860s - Europe 1940s - Middle East 2010's
And how the rest of us shouldn't get dragged into local conflicts and let the agonists sought it out.
So yeah.
It's a 100 years since New Zealanders started to get dragged into these kinds of conflicts.
Maybe we should all stop.
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:34 PM on February 22, 2015
US 1860s - Europe 1940s - Middle East 2010's
And how the rest of us shouldn't get dragged into local conflicts and let the agonists sought it out.
So yeah.
It's a 100 years since New Zealanders started to get dragged into these kinds of conflicts.
Maybe we should all stop.
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:34 PM on February 22, 2015
Very timely Ottoman mention.
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:35 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:35 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Bereft of any common symbols, the city took a poll to figure out what kind of statue to erect in the city center. All the local figures were too polarizing. In the end they settled on a gold-colored statue of the martial arts star Bruce Lee.
“It belongs to no one,” Mackic says. “What does Bruce Lee mean to me?”"
That is the most prescient question I have read in awhile.
posted by clavdivs at 6:02 PM on February 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
“It belongs to no one,” Mackic says. “What does Bruce Lee mean to me?”"
That is the most prescient question I have read in awhile.
posted by clavdivs at 6:02 PM on February 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've been thinking about the Middle East in terms of WWII recently, my first thought was maybe it's a stage civilization has to go through at a point of development.
US 1860s - Europe 1940s - Middle East 2010's
You mean 2010 BC, right? Building cities atop the war-ravaged ruins of other cities and periodically becoming united under monolithic polities are sort of the Middle East's thing. This may not be the moment to congratulate the region on the maturity of its civilization.
posted by XMLicious at 7:04 PM on February 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
While I have no doubt that the situation in Syria is appalling and will take many years to rectify once the fighting stops, I find it a bit of a stretch to compare it to Germany at the end of WWII.
It looks to me like we're talking 23 million people in Syria today vs. something like 66 million people in Germany in 1945.
I'm sure large parts of Syria have been pummeled into rubble, but I have a difficult time trying to compare it to an unrelenting bombing campaign such as Germany saw where the Americans pounded them during the day and the Brits took the night time shift. And that's not even considering the damage caused by allied artillery as they waded into Germany from both sides.
In any event the comparison is rather useless. What happened to Germany during WWII was tragic (unless you were Jewish or an allied soldier) and so is what's currently happening in Syria. Why are people trying to rank the level of tragedy compared to past conflicts while people in the war zone are still being killed? The more things change, the more they stay the same.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:33 PM on February 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
It looks to me like we're talking 23 million people in Syria today vs. something like 66 million people in Germany in 1945.
I'm sure large parts of Syria have been pummeled into rubble, but I have a difficult time trying to compare it to an unrelenting bombing campaign such as Germany saw where the Americans pounded them during the day and the Brits took the night time shift. And that's not even considering the damage caused by allied artillery as they waded into Germany from both sides.
In any event the comparison is rather useless. What happened to Germany during WWII was tragic (unless you were Jewish or an allied soldier) and so is what's currently happening in Syria. Why are people trying to rank the level of tragedy compared to past conflicts while people in the war zone are still being killed? The more things change, the more they stay the same.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:33 PM on February 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
"...but I have a difficult time trying to compare it to an unrelenting bombing campaign such as Germany..."
The scoop of weaponry used and the personnel involved varies to much as does the geopolitical suggestion but certain aspects are comparative. I would not use religion other then to contrast its being co-opted for violence. Even then, no. Stick to the moonscape and rebuilding replan plan.
"Lasting peace can never be secured if we permit our dangerous opponents to plot future wars with impunity at any mountain retreat-however distant.
In this shrinking world, it is futile to seek safety behind geographical barriers. Real security will be found only in law and in justice."
-Harry S. Truman. April 16, 1945.
posted by clavdivs at 8:23 PM on February 22, 2015
The scoop of weaponry used and the personnel involved varies to much as does the geopolitical suggestion but certain aspects are comparative. I would not use religion other then to contrast its being co-opted for violence. Even then, no. Stick to the moonscape and rebuilding replan plan.
"Lasting peace can never be secured if we permit our dangerous opponents to plot future wars with impunity at any mountain retreat-however distant.
In this shrinking world, it is futile to seek safety behind geographical barriers. Real security will be found only in law and in justice."
-Harry S. Truman. April 16, 1945.
posted by clavdivs at 8:23 PM on February 22, 2015
It looks to me like we're talking 23 million people in Syria today vs. something like 66 million people in Germany in 1945.
It's like inflation. Humanity since the Green Revolution is so immense, it's hard to comprehend. China has used more concrete in the past thee years than the United States had in the entire 20th century. No, really.
On the one hand, this means that with so many clever humans thinking and doing, all our lives will be that much more amazing with our combined efforts. On the other hand, when we fail each other, war is that much more horrible.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:10 PM on February 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's like inflation. Humanity since the Green Revolution is so immense, it's hard to comprehend. China has used more concrete in the past thee years than the United States had in the entire 20th century. No, really.
On the one hand, this means that with so many clever humans thinking and doing, all our lives will be that much more amazing with our combined efforts. On the other hand, when we fail each other, war is that much more horrible.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:10 PM on February 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Turkey Sends Troops into Syria to Retrieve Ottoman Tomb.
This is a pretty good analysis of that:
Turkey Withdraws from Suleyman Shah: The Implications
The pictures of the TSK driving through the demolished city of Kobane are eerie. In September the TSK stood and watched on the outskirts of the city as it was destroyed and hundreds of YPG were killed by Daesh, - probably hoping to see them defeated. Now they enter under reluctant YPG escort only after the YPG and FSA have cleared the area and are advancing rapidly. Shameful.
It is interesting that the US have just agreed on equipping and training 5k Syrian soldiers in Turkey, and the YPG from Jazera canton have started attacking near the Syrian border where Daesh is fighting with the SAA/Hezbollah/Iran. I wonder if Turkey and the US have reached a tacit understanding of some sort.
SAA/Iran also started a big offensive to surround Aleppo but were then pushed all the way back by Nusra - who are probably getting significant help from Turkey. I've heard some speculation that Turkey special forces may even have been involved there.
It seems to me Daesh may be forcing lines to be drawn across the ME for a possible region wide conflict between three main groups: royalists, militarists and secularists; pan-Sunni-Islamists and jihadists forced for now to ally with Daesh; and Iran and its proxies. This may start to reveal itself in Iraq and Syria as Daesh is pushed out of Sunni areas. In Syria these areas could go to the more moderate and secular groups fighting with the YPG or into Rojava; or they could go to Nusra and other jihadist and Islamist groups supported by Turkey and Qatar. In Iraq they may end up in Kurdistan or brutally occupied by Shia/Iranian militias.; though the US is working with the ISF and Sunni tribes to create a capable alternative.
In Libya there is a struggle to create a unity government between militarists and varying degrees of Islamists. If this falls apart, it could result in an actual civil war. In the meantime, Daesh is occupying coastal cities and burning people alive with little resistance from anyone and most likely assistance from other Libyan jihadist groups. It would be nice to see the jihadists pushed out of the unity government.
The Unravelling - In a failing state, an anti-Islamist general mounts a divisive campaign
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:44 PM on February 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a pretty good analysis of that:
Turkey Withdraws from Suleyman Shah: The Implications
The pictures of the TSK driving through the demolished city of Kobane are eerie. In September the TSK stood and watched on the outskirts of the city as it was destroyed and hundreds of YPG were killed by Daesh, - probably hoping to see them defeated. Now they enter under reluctant YPG escort only after the YPG and FSA have cleared the area and are advancing rapidly. Shameful.
It is interesting that the US have just agreed on equipping and training 5k Syrian soldiers in Turkey, and the YPG from Jazera canton have started attacking near the Syrian border where Daesh is fighting with the SAA/Hezbollah/Iran. I wonder if Turkey and the US have reached a tacit understanding of some sort.
SAA/Iran also started a big offensive to surround Aleppo but were then pushed all the way back by Nusra - who are probably getting significant help from Turkey. I've heard some speculation that Turkey special forces may even have been involved there.
It seems to me Daesh may be forcing lines to be drawn across the ME for a possible region wide conflict between three main groups: royalists, militarists and secularists; pan-Sunni-Islamists and jihadists forced for now to ally with Daesh; and Iran and its proxies. This may start to reveal itself in Iraq and Syria as Daesh is pushed out of Sunni areas. In Syria these areas could go to the more moderate and secular groups fighting with the YPG or into Rojava; or they could go to Nusra and other jihadist and Islamist groups supported by Turkey and Qatar. In Iraq they may end up in Kurdistan or brutally occupied by Shia/Iranian militias.; though the US is working with the ISF and Sunni tribes to create a capable alternative.
In Libya there is a struggle to create a unity government between militarists and varying degrees of Islamists. If this falls apart, it could result in an actual civil war. In the meantime, Daesh is occupying coastal cities and burning people alive with little resistance from anyone and most likely assistance from other Libyan jihadist groups. It would be nice to see the jihadists pushed out of the unity government.
The Unravelling - In a failing state, an anti-Islamist general mounts a divisive campaign
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:44 PM on February 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I know the USA has a checkered past with its interventionist policies, but I wish we could see a concerted allied effort to start an effective campaign to kill these Daesh bastards. Burning people alive is unacceptable. I read that the USA sent around 12 A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthogs) over there to assist in the fight against these lunatics. I'm also glad to see King Abdullah II of Jordan get ferocious on these assholes. I don't want American boots on the ground, but, it seems to me, that we have to find a way to defeat these barbarians.
What that solution is, I do not know. Dog help us all.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 10:59 PM on February 22, 2015
What that solution is, I do not know. Dog help us all.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 10:59 PM on February 22, 2015
From the article: Allied forces spent years preparing for the physical, economic, and political reconstruction of Germany and Japan even before they could be sure who would win.
I'm really not sure we did. In fact, I think we made it up as we went along, and indeed completely changed policy at least once ("Germany will be made a wholly pastoral non-industrial nation" to "Germany must re-arm to hold off the Soviets")
This planning looks a bit... silly? Premature? Sadly. I wish the wars were over.
posted by alasdair at 1:49 AM on February 23, 2015
I'm really not sure we did. In fact, I think we made it up as we went along, and indeed completely changed policy at least once ("Germany will be made a wholly pastoral non-industrial nation" to "Germany must re-arm to hold off the Soviets")
This planning looks a bit... silly? Premature? Sadly. I wish the wars were over.
posted by alasdair at 1:49 AM on February 23, 2015
But at least (West) Germany was rebuilt. There was a monolithic enemy, it was comprehensively defeated, and reconstruction started. In Syria there are factions all over the place with no sign of an overall winner, and war (or at very least 'not peace') could stretch on for years until all the young, educated people have long since left or been killed and the country is a hollowed out shell.
posted by kersplunk at 2:28 AM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kersplunk at 2:28 AM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is also the big question of whether the Assads (should they win) will want to rebuild the country with a Sunni Arab majority. Although many Sunni Arabs have supported the Assads in the war, those which have not will be thoroughly unwelcome. The need to rebuild in the north and east of Syria may be offset by the hundreds of thousands, or even millions, or people who will never come home.
I half expect the Assads to clear great swathes of Aleppo and install the most galling of triumphal architecture.
posted by Thing at 2:37 AM on February 23, 2015
I half expect the Assads to clear great swathes of Aleppo and install the most galling of triumphal architecture.
posted by Thing at 2:37 AM on February 23, 2015
InsertNiftyNameHere: "Burning people alive is unacceptable."
At the risk of falling into false equivalency, you might want to look up what a AGM-114N Hellfire II missile, which Wikipedia calls "extremely effective against people and structures", does.
Not that Da'ish aren't barbaric, of course. I've seen the Jordanian pilot execution video, and I wish I hadn't. But let's not pretend military intervention is clean, hits only those we want it to hit, implies no collateral damage (which is readily used for recruitment by various terrorist organizations), or that we'll be greeted as liberators or anything. I'm not categorically against military intervention, but you go to war, people die on both sides. Innocent people die on both sides, often horribly.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:33 AM on February 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
At the risk of falling into false equivalency, you might want to look up what a AGM-114N Hellfire II missile, which Wikipedia calls "extremely effective against people and structures", does.
Not that Da'ish aren't barbaric, of course. I've seen the Jordanian pilot execution video, and I wish I hadn't. But let's not pretend military intervention is clean, hits only those we want it to hit, implies no collateral damage (which is readily used for recruitment by various terrorist organizations), or that we'll be greeted as liberators or anything. I'm not categorically against military intervention, but you go to war, people die on both sides. Innocent people die on both sides, often horribly.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:33 AM on February 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The situation calls for moderately black humour at times. This was being posted at your various alt news outlets last year and now it is enjoying a 're'surge'ence.
---
As a Syrian rebel, I think the word or phrase that best describes me is:
A) Moderate
B) Very moderate
C) Crazy moderate
D) Other
I became a Syrian rebel because I believe in:
A) Truth
B) Justice
C) The American Way
D) Creating an Islamic caliphate
If I were given a highly lethal automatic weapon by the United States, I would:
A) Only kill exactly the people that the United States wanted me to kill
B) Try to kill the right people, with the caveat that I have never used an automatic weapon before
C) Kill people only after submitting them to a rigorous vetting process
D) Immediately let the weapon fall into the wrong hands
I have previously received weapons from:
A) Al Qaeda
B) The Taliban
C) North Korea
D) I did not receive weapons from any of them because after they vetted me I was deemed way too moderate
I consider ISIS:
A) An existential threat to Iraq
B) An existential threat to Syria
C) An existential threat to Iraq and Syria
D) The people who will pick up my American weapon after I drop it and run away
Complete the following sentence. “American weapons are…”
A) Always a good thing to randomly add to any international hot spot
B) Exactly what this raging civil war has been missing for the past three years
C) Best when used moderately
D) Super easy to resell online
To be fair every other country in the ME that isn't Syria, is in Syria doing some kind of damage. Last year I thought the US couldn't make things worse in Syria even if they tried, BUT JTAC Jihadis calling in B1 strikes. Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Qatar and the Saudis and Iran and ... the other ones are going to have to up their game.
posted by vicx at 5:07 AM on February 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
---
As a Syrian rebel, I think the word or phrase that best describes me is:
A) Moderate
B) Very moderate
C) Crazy moderate
D) Other
I became a Syrian rebel because I believe in:
A) Truth
B) Justice
C) The American Way
D) Creating an Islamic caliphate
If I were given a highly lethal automatic weapon by the United States, I would:
A) Only kill exactly the people that the United States wanted me to kill
B) Try to kill the right people, with the caveat that I have never used an automatic weapon before
C) Kill people only after submitting them to a rigorous vetting process
D) Immediately let the weapon fall into the wrong hands
I have previously received weapons from:
A) Al Qaeda
B) The Taliban
C) North Korea
D) I did not receive weapons from any of them because after they vetted me I was deemed way too moderate
I consider ISIS:
A) An existential threat to Iraq
B) An existential threat to Syria
C) An existential threat to Iraq and Syria
D) The people who will pick up my American weapon after I drop it and run away
Complete the following sentence. “American weapons are…”
A) Always a good thing to randomly add to any international hot spot
B) Exactly what this raging civil war has been missing for the past three years
C) Best when used moderately
D) Super easy to resell online
To be fair every other country in the ME that isn't Syria, is in Syria doing some kind of damage. Last year I thought the US couldn't make things worse in Syria even if they tried, BUT JTAC Jihadis calling in B1 strikes. Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Qatar and the Saudis and Iran and ... the other ones are going to have to up their game.
posted by vicx at 5:07 AM on February 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
"We’ve decapitated more civilians than ISIS ever has" by Chris Hedges
There is a difference between burning people alive because that option appears safest to your own troops and doing it for pure intimidation, media, etc. purposes, especially in that one is a war crime, but..
We cannot accurately place American actions with respect to that distinction because we do not really know the degree to which the U.S. leaders burn people alive, torture people, etc. for intimidation purposes. And even if we knew more our leaders would not recognize that American state terrorism as the terrorism that it is.
Ya know, Aaron Swartz was prosecuted aggressively by Stephen Heymann to intimidate or "terrorize" hackers interested in engaging in effective activism. Yet, Holder deemed this atrocious behavior “a good use of prosecutorial discretion.”
It's a fundamentally that states do not recognize any universality in ethics, ala “but we're the good guys”, “human rights do not apply to otters”, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:13 AM on February 23, 2015
There is a difference between burning people alive because that option appears safest to your own troops and doing it for pure intimidation, media, etc. purposes, especially in that one is a war crime, but..
We cannot accurately place American actions with respect to that distinction because we do not really know the degree to which the U.S. leaders burn people alive, torture people, etc. for intimidation purposes. And even if we knew more our leaders would not recognize that American state terrorism as the terrorism that it is.
Ya know, Aaron Swartz was prosecuted aggressively by Stephen Heymann to intimidate or "terrorize" hackers interested in engaging in effective activism. Yet, Holder deemed this atrocious behavior “a good use of prosecutorial discretion.”
It's a fundamentally that states do not recognize any universality in ethics, ala “but we're the good guys”, “human rights do not apply to otters”, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:13 AM on February 23, 2015
"I'm really not sure we did. In fact, I think we made it up as we went along, and indeed completely changed policy at least once ("Germany will be made a wholly pastoral non-industrial nation" to "Germany must re-arm to hold off the Soviets")"
Becker, C. L. How new will the better world be? 1944. 940.531 B388h
(No relation to this Becker, but interesting in their tasks)
Beckers' work on post war reconstruction is just one I found.
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Becker, C. L. How new will the better world be? 1944. 940.531 B388h
(No relation to this Becker, but interesting in their tasks)
Beckers' work on post war reconstruction is just one I found.
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Joakim Ziegler: "InsertNiftyNameHere: "Burning people alive is unacceptable."
At the risk of falling into false equivalency, you might want to look up what a AGM-114N Hellfire II missile, which Wikipedia calls "extremely effective against people and structures", does.
Not that Da'ish aren't barbaric, of course. I've seen the Jordanian pilot execution video, and I wish I hadn't. But let's not pretend military intervention is clean, hits only those we want it to hit, implies no collateral damage (which is readily used for recruitment by various terrorist organizations), or that we'll be greeted as liberators or anything. I'm not categorically against military intervention, but you go to war, people die on both sides. Innocent people die on both sides, often horribly."
Point taken. There is no "clean" solution. I guess I'm simply frustrated that the barbarity continues. Perhaps one day we will wise up and quit doing this kind of stuff to one another. Gonna be a long time before that ever happens, though.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:05 PM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
At the risk of falling into false equivalency, you might want to look up what a AGM-114N Hellfire II missile, which Wikipedia calls "extremely effective against people and structures", does.
Not that Da'ish aren't barbaric, of course. I've seen the Jordanian pilot execution video, and I wish I hadn't. But let's not pretend military intervention is clean, hits only those we want it to hit, implies no collateral damage (which is readily used for recruitment by various terrorist organizations), or that we'll be greeted as liberators or anything. I'm not categorically against military intervention, but you go to war, people die on both sides. Innocent people die on both sides, often horribly."
Point taken. There is no "clean" solution. I guess I'm simply frustrated that the barbarity continues. Perhaps one day we will wise up and quit doing this kind of stuff to one another. Gonna be a long time before that ever happens, though.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:05 PM on February 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
With friends like these: America’s allies in the Middle East create as many problems as they solve
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:07 AM on March 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:07 AM on March 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love the general idea of the fpp, actually. It may be unrealistic, but if and when areas in Syria are safe to rebuild, there could be a great opportunity for the international community to step in and support rebuilding healthy communities, as I'm sure could be done to a much greater extent now in the refugee camps.
Alternative Left Perspectives on Syria
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:38 AM on March 9, 2015
Alternative Left Perspectives on Syria
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:38 AM on March 9, 2015
« Older The 87th Academy Awards, also booze | To me photography must suggest, not insist or... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:08 PM on February 22, 2015