"Because girls are nerds, guys, and they want to buy your stuff"
March 15, 2015 11:29 AM Subscribe
For a 12-year-old girl, playing games on an iPhone is pretty regular behavior. Almost all of my friends have game apps on their phones, and we’ll spend sleepovers playing side by side. One day I noticed that my friend was playing a game as a boy character and asked why she wasn’t a girl. She said you couldn’t be a girl; a boy character was the only option.Madeleine Messer is a sixth grade student who went looking for why her mobile games rarely feature girls.
Meanwhile a new study held by Rosalind Wiseman and Ashly Burch under 1,583 students aged 11 to 18 showed that both boys and girls want more girls playing games, with the latter having a stronger desire to play characters of their own gender than the former:
The most compelling data point for game developers is the fact that girls in high school are far more likely to prefer to play female characters than boys of the same age are likely to prefer to play male characters.The slidedeck of their presentation at GDC 2015 is available from Wiseman's website.
Only 39 percent of high-school aged boys surveyed preferred to play as male characters, while 60 percent of high-school aged girls preferred to play as female characters.
[...]
Furthermore, when gamer boys were asked if they want to see more girls play games, 86 percent said yes. When asked if they wanted to see more female heroes, only 19 percent disagreed. This data, the authors said, means that the majority of boys are welcoming to the girls that enjoy the hobby, and that they are eager to share it.
(You may know Ashly Burch from Hey Ash Whatcha Playin'.)
I totally agree that games are boyzoned by narrow-minded, unimaginative dudes.
And yet...
"You all know Frozen right?" Burch said. "So let’s talk about Frozen. ... Why do little girls like Elsa? Because she makes ice with her hands."
I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
There's so much going on in that movie -- great music, great script, great acting -- that it's quite reductionist to focus on the "superhero" aspect and the expectation that slapping a girl character into an iPhone game will be a license to print money.
So when a copycat comes along and fails ... and there will be failures, because this is hard ... it will be easy for corporate bean-counters to throw up their hands and go "See? I told you so. Now, let's spend $100 million on "Call of Bullets Honor Medal 6: The Bulleting."
Frozen, so to speak, is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:49 AM on March 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
And yet...
"You all know Frozen right?" Burch said. "So let’s talk about Frozen. ... Why do little girls like Elsa? Because she makes ice with her hands."
I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
There's so much going on in that movie -- great music, great script, great acting -- that it's quite reductionist to focus on the "superhero" aspect and the expectation that slapping a girl character into an iPhone game will be a license to print money.
So when a copycat comes along and fails ... and there will be failures, because this is hard ... it will be easy for corporate bean-counters to throw up their hands and go "See? I told you so. Now, let's spend $100 million on "Call of Bullets Honor Medal 6: The Bulleting."
Frozen, so to speak, is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:49 AM on March 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh, and Fem Shep is undeniably the best.
She is the only Shepard. I've taken to calling the other Man-Shep.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:55 AM on March 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
She is the only Shepard. I've taken to calling the other Man-Shep.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:55 AM on March 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
Apparently Ashly Burch is all kinds of amazing. I just discovered that she sings.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:01 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:01 PM on March 15, 2015
I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
I just asked my five year old granddaughter why she likes Frozen so much and she said because Elsa has magic that makes ice come out of her hands. So maybe being the superhero is appealing to girls. Why is that so remarkable?
posted by tamitang at 12:02 PM on March 15, 2015 [57 favorites]
I just asked my five year old granddaughter why she likes Frozen so much and she said because Elsa has magic that makes ice come out of her hands. So maybe being the superhero is appealing to girls. Why is that so remarkable?
posted by tamitang at 12:02 PM on March 15, 2015 [57 favorites]
I'm generally coming to the conclusion that games offering only one character are inherently inferior to those offering some level of customization that includes gender.
Shadow of Mordor has been a lot of fun, although the opening sequence & premise--your wife and son are murdered in front of you and now you're out for revenge!--is like nails on chalkboard given the general dialogue about games lately. I'm telling myself that it's a silly Punisher-in-Middle Earth crossover fanfic (Frank Castle: Ranger of Gondor!), and on that level I can still enjoy it, but...damn.
The worst part, though, was when my girlfriend discovered that you can play with a pretty well-rendered female avatar if you choose...except the opening sequence and ALL the cut-scenes and dialogue still kick you right back to the default male character. So it's like they recognized the demand for a female avatar, but they didn't actually care enough to give it the whole nine yards, and somehow that feels even cheaper than just not having multiple avatar options at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Shadow of Mordor has been a lot of fun, although the opening sequence & premise--your wife and son are murdered in front of you and now you're out for revenge!--is like nails on chalkboard given the general dialogue about games lately. I'm telling myself that it's a silly Punisher-in-Middle Earth crossover fanfic (Frank Castle: Ranger of Gondor!), and on that level I can still enjoy it, but...damn.
The worst part, though, was when my girlfriend discovered that you can play with a pretty well-rendered female avatar if you choose...except the opening sequence and ALL the cut-scenes and dialogue still kick you right back to the default male character. So it's like they recognized the demand for a female avatar, but they didn't actually care enough to give it the whole nine yards, and somehow that feels even cheaper than just not having multiple avatar options at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Huh. Not so curious about Shadows of Mordor now....:(
posted by triage_lazarus at 12:13 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by triage_lazarus at 12:13 PM on March 15, 2015
I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
I just asked my five year old granddaughter why she likes Frozen so much and she said because Elsa has magic that makes ice come out of her hands. So maybe being the superhero is appealing to girls. Why is that so remarkable?
My five year old daughter reports that she likes Frozen because Elsa is a queen with ice powers.
posted by 256 at 12:14 PM on March 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
I just asked my five year old granddaughter why she likes Frozen so much and she said because Elsa has magic that makes ice come out of her hands. So maybe being the superhero is appealing to girls. Why is that so remarkable?
My five year old daughter reports that she likes Frozen because Elsa is a queen with ice powers.
posted by 256 at 12:14 PM on March 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
So I just started playing Rayman Legends and instead of rescuing weirdly lascivious fairies or whatever that was in the previous game, you can unlock a series of fierce warrior girls with axes and swords and then play as them instead of Rayman. It is just the best thing!
On the other hand, Ubisoft are also the people who claimed that a female Assassin's Creed model would be too much effort. So there is a lot of work to be done still, clearly.
posted by selfnoise at 12:19 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Ubisoft are also the people who claimed that a female Assassin's Creed model would be too much effort. So there is a lot of work to be done still, clearly.
posted by selfnoise at 12:19 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Huh. Not so curious about Shadows of Mordor now....:(
It's very pretty. The biggest innovation is that the orcs can develop personalities and refer back to events that happened in the game only because of your actions -- if you throw one in a fire in a fight and he survives, he'll complain about it later, etc. You get to see a lot of internal mook politics among the orcs as they react to you murdering them. So aside from the cut scenes, the game itself can be a lot of fun.
But if you've ever watched a Feminist Frequency video, you can basically feel Anita standing over your shoulder and hear her sigh while you play through the cut scenes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's very pretty. The biggest innovation is that the orcs can develop personalities and refer back to events that happened in the game only because of your actions -- if you throw one in a fire in a fight and he survives, he'll complain about it later, etc. You get to see a lot of internal mook politics among the orcs as they react to you murdering them. So aside from the cut scenes, the game itself can be a lot of fun.
But if you've ever watched a Feminist Frequency video, you can basically feel Anita standing over your shoulder and hear her sigh while you play through the cut scenes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've taken to calling the other Man-Shep.
Broshep.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
Broshep.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
I grew up playing video games, starting with my Super Nintendo in the 90s. I didn't really mind when a hero was male. As I got older and games had more options, then it was nice to play as a girl. But at the same time, playing Halo as a male Master Chief never bothered me. And yes Female Shepherd is THE BEST! (Her voice acting is much better as well.)
BUT, now that games are more advanced and there's more options and programming, I just don't understand - if you can pick a character - why games aren't making as many female characters. (And don't get me started on how sexy and booby they are.) At the same time, I don't see the outrage if a game is made without the ability to choose a character and the character is male, though I understand wanting more strong female characters in general.
I guess I just don't need to see a female character to know that I (the game player) am a badass female hero.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
BUT, now that games are more advanced and there's more options and programming, I just don't understand - if you can pick a character - why games aren't making as many female characters. (And don't get me started on how sexy and booby they are.) At the same time, I don't see the outrage if a game is made without the ability to choose a character and the character is male, though I understand wanting more strong female characters in general.
I guess I just don't need to see a female character to know that I (the game player) am a badass female hero.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
>I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
Yeah, they probably did this, with a lot more than 100 people in fact. The people making decisions about this kind of stuff often suck, but one thing they are often good at is 'focus groups'.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:24 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, they probably did this, with a lot more than 100 people in fact. The people making decisions about this kind of stuff often suck, but one thing they are often good at is 'focus groups'.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:24 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
My daughter adores Frozen but didn't have anything to say about the ice hands. Perhaps Elsa's ice hands give girls a vocabulary to express ideas that would otherwise be hard to release; and that they're conscious of saying they like the ice hands in order to 'match up to the boys' now that they've been given their own superhero queen.
Also, Jennifer Lawrence in The Hunger Games is an authentic superhero to young girls.
posted by colie at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, Jennifer Lawrence in The Hunger Games is an authentic superhero to young girls.
posted by colie at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just don't understand - if you can pick a character - why games aren't making as many female characters. (And don't get me started on how sexy and booby they are.)
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2015
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2015
Though note the "if you can pick a character" condition, which means they were willing to do the work to make two or more characters, just not female characters.
posted by RobotHero at 12:35 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 12:35 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nintendo should port one of their sidescrolling metroids to mobile...
posted by JoeXIII007 at 12:35 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by JoeXIII007 at 12:35 PM on March 15, 2015
"Young girl notices that there is a lack of positive female role models or any girls at all in geek media, and speaks out against it" seems to be a trend lately. Whether it is articles by and about young women, or parents writing about how their geeky female kid just blew their mind and broke their heart by pointing out the sexism inherent in geek media. Adults in these articles tend to come across as a bunch of hapless, clueless individuals who just needed a wise child to rub the scales from their eyes before they could perceive sexism and try to do something about it. It's a good thing that these girls are speaking out, but I roll my eyes at the blithe erasure of adult geeky women and decades of feminism that tends to go along with the reception of these articles.
posted by wrabbit at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by wrabbit at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
(And don't get me started on how sexy and booby they are.)
Sexy is fine, and even booby is fine, as long as we're seeing a spectrum that includes alternatives.
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
This sort of thinking is pretty much self-fulfilling.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sexy is fine, and even booby is fine, as long as we're seeing a spectrum that includes alternatives.
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
This sort of thinking is pretty much self-fulfilling.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
My daughter loves Frozen because omg Olaf.
posted by escabeche at 12:44 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 12:44 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, sexy and booby are only a problem because they are the only option. Plenty of girls and women want to play sexy and booby characters. But when that's the only female option, it's eminently clear that the option is there for the boys, not for them.
posted by 256 at 12:44 PM on March 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by 256 at 12:44 PM on March 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
I am still unbelievably peeved that Man Shep is apparently canonical by way of spinoff novels.
I'm generally coming to the conclusion that games offering only one character are inherently inferior to those offering some level of customization that includes gender.
I don't think you can extend the general principle very far at all. Silent Hill, Metal Gear, the GTAs, and a lot of story-driven games only offer one or a small handful of characters, with no customization, and they're better for that, because they rely on who those one or two characters are as actual people.
Even in games where the characters are fairly generic, it doesn't automatically lead to a better game at all. Take Diablo 1 and 2 vs Diablo 3. I would have gladly given up gender options for every class in favor of D3 not being absolute garbage. That was far from the only thing Blizzard wasted time and effort on and not the main reason such a great franchise was utterly sewered, but I feel like the choice to make every class available as every gender came in with an overall design vision that was just bad and wrong, ie they tried to make the whole thing much more like World of Warcraft and extend it to the same kind of massive, broad audience, which was a huge mistake. One of the things that made WoW so successful in general and across genders is that it's an enormous game that contains multitudes and can be played in a variety of different ways. Diablo is a much tighter, more focused game in a different genre, and frankly having that degree of customization made the individual classes feel less like individual people to me than when each class had a specific gender. Having a better gender balance than the first two games would have fit much better with the overall design of the game and how "character" is conveyed, but they went with the choice that looked better from an equality perspective and in that particular way ended up with a worse game because of it.
I think there's an important difference between games that have only one character, or a small selection of characters with fixed genders, but those characters are distinct and unique individuals both in terms of story and game mechanics, and games that only have a few characters who're basically generic and cardboardy that all happen to be male because male is the default. Obviously I'd like more of the protagonists in single-character games to be female, but I think it's too reductive to assume that every single-character game with a male protagonist is worse for that choice, as long as it was a choice. Even in multi-character games with all males, there are still plenty where, as much as I'd have liked the choice, I'll take the effectively all male cast of TF2, who are all at least different people with different personalities and bodytypes and genuinely different playstyles, than similar games where there are female options for every class, but they're both genders are generic hot fitness model types and there's barely any differentiation between playing the equivalent of a heavy and a medic.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm generally coming to the conclusion that games offering only one character are inherently inferior to those offering some level of customization that includes gender.
I don't think you can extend the general principle very far at all. Silent Hill, Metal Gear, the GTAs, and a lot of story-driven games only offer one or a small handful of characters, with no customization, and they're better for that, because they rely on who those one or two characters are as actual people.
Even in games where the characters are fairly generic, it doesn't automatically lead to a better game at all. Take Diablo 1 and 2 vs Diablo 3. I would have gladly given up gender options for every class in favor of D3 not being absolute garbage. That was far from the only thing Blizzard wasted time and effort on and not the main reason such a great franchise was utterly sewered, but I feel like the choice to make every class available as every gender came in with an overall design vision that was just bad and wrong, ie they tried to make the whole thing much more like World of Warcraft and extend it to the same kind of massive, broad audience, which was a huge mistake. One of the things that made WoW so successful in general and across genders is that it's an enormous game that contains multitudes and can be played in a variety of different ways. Diablo is a much tighter, more focused game in a different genre, and frankly having that degree of customization made the individual classes feel less like individual people to me than when each class had a specific gender. Having a better gender balance than the first two games would have fit much better with the overall design of the game and how "character" is conveyed, but they went with the choice that looked better from an equality perspective and in that particular way ended up with a worse game because of it.
I think there's an important difference between games that have only one character, or a small selection of characters with fixed genders, but those characters are distinct and unique individuals both in terms of story and game mechanics, and games that only have a few characters who're basically generic and cardboardy that all happen to be male because male is the default. Obviously I'd like more of the protagonists in single-character games to be female, but I think it's too reductive to assume that every single-character game with a male protagonist is worse for that choice, as long as it was a choice. Even in multi-character games with all males, there are still plenty where, as much as I'd have liked the choice, I'll take the effectively all male cast of TF2, who are all at least different people with different personalities and bodytypes and genuinely different playstyles, than similar games where there are female options for every class, but they're both genders are generic hot fitness model types and there's barely any differentiation between playing the equivalent of a heavy and a medic.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
My five year old daughter reports that she likes Frozen because Elsa is a queen with ice powers.
Queen. The operative word there was queen. Elsa isn't a random schmuck with ice powers, because if that's all it took, then your daughter would be enamored with this guy. She's a queen with ice powers.
Which only bolsters my argument -- that it's easy to miss the forest for the trees.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Queen. The operative word there was queen. Elsa isn't a random schmuck with ice powers, because if that's all it took, then your daughter would be enamored with this guy. She's a queen with ice powers.
Which only bolsters my argument -- that it's easy to miss the forest for the trees.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am still unbelievably peeved that Man Shep is apparently canonical by way of spinoff novels.
You have disappointed me, series of novels based on a video game.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
You have disappointed me, series of novels based on a video game.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
(And wow are you right about D3)
posted by Drinky Die at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2015
Silent Hill, Metal Gear, the GTAs, and a lot of story-driven games only offer one or a small handful of characters, with no customization, and they're better for that, because they rely on who those one or two characters are as actual people.
Counterpoint are all the other story driven games like Mass Effect that have a good story and character customisation. It's perhaps more difficult, but I prefer the Saints Row style of having the story told through the NPCs as much as through your own character, rather than having the protagonist locked in, as in the GTAs, whose stories are just that much genre crap anyway.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Counterpoint are all the other story driven games like Mass Effect that have a good story and character customisation. It's perhaps more difficult, but I prefer the Saints Row style of having the story told through the NPCs as much as through your own character, rather than having the protagonist locked in, as in the GTAs, whose stories are just that much genre crap anyway.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
sexy and booby are only a problem because they are the only option.
Elsa is very leggy and sexy - but is clearly an adult compared to Anna.
posted by colie at 1:12 PM on March 15, 2015
Elsa is very leggy and sexy - but is clearly an adult compared to Anna.
posted by colie at 1:12 PM on March 15, 2015
Also the aspect of selling DLC is a new twist to me. You can be a male character by default but have to pay extra to be female.
Is there further data from the Wiseman and Burch survey than what's in the presentation?
posted by RobotHero at 1:19 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Disney’s “Temple Run Oz” charges $29.97 to become the only girl character.First of all, there are a lot of entire games that cost less than that. Second of all, in the original Wizard of Oz book, over a century old at this point, the main character was Dorothy, right? Though I guess we can blame the latest movie for this, instead of the game.
Is there further data from the Wiseman and Burch survey than what's in the presentation?
posted by RobotHero at 1:19 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the rage-causing points she makes is that when there IS a girl option available, it's often either inferior or actually costs you more to use. So that's an automatic penalty for playing as female. I don't think there's anything not-sexist about that. Especially given how many girls play. If there's a free male option, there needs to be a free female one. And yeah, it'd be super nice if it's wasn't Slutsy the Fairy, but instead just an average looking woman/girl/whatever. People who want to play as Slutsy could pay for her, if there's demand.
As for more complex games, if you can devote programming time and money to making the blood spatters extra-realistic, or the zombies extra-shuffly, then saying "oh, female characters are just too haaard" is some weaksauce bullshit.
posted by emjaybee at 1:22 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
As for more complex games, if you can devote programming time and money to making the blood spatters extra-realistic, or the zombies extra-shuffly, then saying "oh, female characters are just too haaard" is some weaksauce bullshit.
posted by emjaybee at 1:22 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
(And wow are you right about D3)
I feel an enormous sense of vindication that Blizzard has confirmed I'm 3-for-0 so far in picking the "correct" gender for each class by way of putting them in Heroes of the Storm. If they wind up putting in a full set of D3 heroes with the correct genders and voice acting, for me that will be enough to redeem the money I spent on D3. We'll probably be waiting a long time for the Wizard, unfortunately, but it also just confirms how stupid the choice to go for every class as both genders was, because on one hand you have Grey DeLisle and on the other you have "generic blizzard magic villain/male blood elf guy". I mean, he's a great voice actor, but in terms of "this is a character we really wanted our playerbase to regard as unique and distinct" there's just no comparison.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:26 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel an enormous sense of vindication that Blizzard has confirmed I'm 3-for-0 so far in picking the "correct" gender for each class by way of putting them in Heroes of the Storm. If they wind up putting in a full set of D3 heroes with the correct genders and voice acting, for me that will be enough to redeem the money I spent on D3. We'll probably be waiting a long time for the Wizard, unfortunately, but it also just confirms how stupid the choice to go for every class as both genders was, because on one hand you have Grey DeLisle and on the other you have "generic blizzard magic villain/male blood elf guy". I mean, he's a great voice actor, but in terms of "this is a character we really wanted our playerbase to regard as unique and distinct" there's just no comparison.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:26 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The most compelling data point for game developers is the fact that girls in high school are far more likely to prefer to play female characters than boys of the same age are likely to prefer to play male characters.
I could have told you this almost 25 years ago. First-picked in Street Fighter II (or, okay, maybe second after Ryu) among 9- and 10-year-old boys in my cohort was always Chun Li. And while it's fairly obvious that game designers noticed young boys liked the girl with the boobs and took that as a cue to put boobs in everything thereafter, it really can't be overstated how much the boobs were not the draw. (It's a fighting game; you choose characters based on their abilities. She could have been built like the Crushinator and we'd still pick her first.)
Also, Princess Toadstool could fly, y'all!
posted by Sys Rq at 1:31 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I could have told you this almost 25 years ago. First-picked in Street Fighter II (or, okay, maybe second after Ryu) among 9- and 10-year-old boys in my cohort was always Chun Li. And while it's fairly obvious that game designers noticed young boys liked the girl with the boobs and took that as a cue to put boobs in everything thereafter, it really can't be overstated how much the boobs were not the draw. (It's a fighting game; you choose characters based on their abilities. She could have been built like the Crushinator and we'd still pick her first.)
Also, Princess Toadstool could fly, y'all!
posted by Sys Rq at 1:31 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Re: Fem-Shep - Jennifer Hale's performance was typically perfect throughout and it's a crime she wasn't the canon Shepherd, particularly after the first title came out and everybody had a chance to compare. When she did Rosalind Lutece on Bioshock Infinite I barely had to make any edits to her lines (ditto Oliver Vaquer as Robert Lutece), which basically meant every recording session with her was nearly a vacation for my next couple days.
When you've been crunching somewhere between 85 and 110 hours a week for months that sort of thing crosses the line from "appreciated" to "life-saving".
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
In the last generation the answer pretty definitively came down on animation budget and - people are often surprised to learn this - animation memory budget for console platforms. That was for last gen, though. This cycle everything's got a shit-ton of RAM and the only limiting factor is budget for animators. I started in game development as a tools programming intern at age 16, meaning I'm creeping up on two decades - in that time I've seen publisher-side producers spike funding for female animations on three occasions. What still makes me tilt my head and squint when I think about it is that two of the producers who made that call were women.
Like, I get making the tough calls necessary to ship on time and within budget, but... Jesus. Still blows my mind a little.
posted by Ryvar at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
When you've been crunching somewhere between 85 and 110 hours a week for months that sort of thing crosses the line from "appreciated" to "life-saving".
Probably because of the additional programming, animation, voice acting and mo-cap costs.
In the last generation the answer pretty definitively came down on animation budget and - people are often surprised to learn this - animation memory budget for console platforms. That was for last gen, though. This cycle everything's got a shit-ton of RAM and the only limiting factor is budget for animators. I started in game development as a tools programming intern at age 16, meaning I'm creeping up on two decades - in that time I've seen publisher-side producers spike funding for female animations on three occasions. What still makes me tilt my head and squint when I think about it is that two of the producers who made that call were women.
Like, I get making the tough calls necessary to ship on time and within budget, but... Jesus. Still blows my mind a little.
posted by Ryvar at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
(It's a fighting game; you choose characters based on their abilities. She could have been built like the Crushinator and we'd still pick her first.)
Definitely this. I won't lie, yes I noticed Chun-Li was pretty at that age, but it was more about her legs going super-sonic and scissor-kicking the shit out any opponent I was facing.
posted by Fizz at 1:38 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Definitely this. I won't lie, yes I noticed Chun-Li was pretty at that age, but it was more about her legs going super-sonic and scissor-kicking the shit out any opponent I was facing.
posted by Fizz at 1:38 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am feeling good that I already convinced my husband to have both a male and female playable character in his next mobile game, or at least a bald stick figure character and one with a pony tail. I had no idea how much you had to pay extra to get female characters normally!
posted by carolr at 1:43 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by carolr at 1:43 PM on March 15, 2015
In a weird way, I think the Street Fighter stuff illustrates a pretty large flaw with the article: it's devoid of much context about the kind of games she's talking about vis-a-vis the rest of the world, ie that they're horrible crap, some of which barely count as games at all, all of which exist to sell overpriced DLC or move products.
I chose Chun Li first because of her gender, and then I realized how terminally mid tier she is in most of the SF games. Historically, she's one of those characters, especially in SF2, who is easy to be cheesy and powerful with if you are playing against mediocre-to-bad people and you yourself are mediocre-to-bad, but there are much better characters if you're actually good, some of whom in the later games are female. I don't think that's a penalty for playing as female, so much as a penalty for being bad at combos and a "trap" of the kind that exist for mid-tier players in basically every competitive game: you can feel a lot more effective than you actually are, right up until the point you face people who are genuinely good. That's something that from the outside, to the perspective of someone who only cares about gender politics, looks punitive against female characters, but that dynamic exists across all kinds of games (fighters, MOBAs, MMOs, RTS, etc), and totally independent of gender.
And it's easy to look at Ryu always being the strongest and say it's sexism, or maybe ableism, since he's the most "normal but badass", stereotypical generic hero guy, but really, it's nationalism and/or xenophobia, depending on your perspective, that made them pick him as the character to balance around and make "good" in the first place. What that says about how he's historically a very hard counter to Chun Li, and why Chun Li was the only female character, is way more than I want to speculate about, but it's a heck of a lot more complicated than just reducing it to "games are sexist".
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:54 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I chose Chun Li first because of her gender, and then I realized how terminally mid tier she is in most of the SF games. Historically, she's one of those characters, especially in SF2, who is easy to be cheesy and powerful with if you are playing against mediocre-to-bad people and you yourself are mediocre-to-bad, but there are much better characters if you're actually good, some of whom in the later games are female. I don't think that's a penalty for playing as female, so much as a penalty for being bad at combos and a "trap" of the kind that exist for mid-tier players in basically every competitive game: you can feel a lot more effective than you actually are, right up until the point you face people who are genuinely good. That's something that from the outside, to the perspective of someone who only cares about gender politics, looks punitive against female characters, but that dynamic exists across all kinds of games (fighters, MOBAs, MMOs, RTS, etc), and totally independent of gender.
And it's easy to look at Ryu always being the strongest and say it's sexism, or maybe ableism, since he's the most "normal but badass", stereotypical generic hero guy, but really, it's nationalism and/or xenophobia, depending on your perspective, that made them pick him as the character to balance around and make "good" in the first place. What that says about how he's historically a very hard counter to Chun Li, and why Chun Li was the only female character, is way more than I want to speculate about, but it's a heck of a lot more complicated than just reducing it to "games are sexist".
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:54 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Elsa is very leggy and sexy - but is clearly an adult compared to Anna.
Whoa, whoa. Anna has the kind of naive ideas about love you might have if you were raised alone in a castle for a decade, without even significant interaction from your sister, but while Elsa has a breakdown, abandons her kingdom, and goes off to live alone in a record-setting magic-enabled pout, it's Anna who establishes a leadership plan for the kingdom and sets off single-handedly to talk some sense into Elsa and end the devastating winter. Then she chooses saving her sister's life over saving her own. If there is a "who's the real adult here?" competition, the result isn't even close. Anna over Elsa, 1000 - 3. She's the heroine of the movie. Elsa's emotional immaturity and lack of self-control is the biggest obstacle she has to overcome.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:58 PM on March 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
Whoa, whoa. Anna has the kind of naive ideas about love you might have if you were raised alone in a castle for a decade, without even significant interaction from your sister, but while Elsa has a breakdown, abandons her kingdom, and goes off to live alone in a record-setting magic-enabled pout, it's Anna who establishes a leadership plan for the kingdom and sets off single-handedly to talk some sense into Elsa and end the devastating winter. Then she chooses saving her sister's life over saving her own. If there is a "who's the real adult here?" competition, the result isn't even close. Anna over Elsa, 1000 - 3. She's the heroine of the movie. Elsa's emotional immaturity and lack of self-control is the biggest obstacle she has to overcome.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:58 PM on March 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
"You all know Frozen right?" Burch said. "So let’s talk about Frozen. ... Why do little girls like Elsa? Because she makes ice with her hands."
Hell yeah. As a little girl and even today as a grown-ass woman, I like the characters with special powers and abilities. It's why I didn't get into Babysitters Club and Sweet Valley Twins but I devoured books like Mail Order Wings, Matilda, and all of Zilpha Keatley Snyder's magicky stuff. Give me the women and girls with powers, please! I will put up with really crap stories and production values for my powered-up ladies!
posted by cadge at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hell yeah. As a little girl and even today as a grown-ass woman, I like the characters with special powers and abilities. It's why I didn't get into Babysitters Club and Sweet Valley Twins but I devoured books like Mail Order Wings, Matilda, and all of Zilpha Keatley Snyder's magicky stuff. Give me the women and girls with powers, please! I will put up with really crap stories and production values for my powered-up ladies!
posted by cadge at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
RobotHero: "Is there further data from the Wiseman and Burch survey than what's in the presentation?"
Okay, maybe I'm going into the realm of This is the Survey I'd Like Someone to Do instead of just the survey they did, but I think an interesting follow-up to the reported preference would be something like
1 - What was the most recent video game you played?
2 - Did it have
A: only one playable character and it's male
B: only one playable character and it's female
C: No playable character (abstract puzzle game, etc.)
D: only playable characters of undetermined gender
E: the choice of more than one playable character and all were male
F: the choice of more than one playable character and all were female
G: the choice of both male and female playable characters and you played as male
H: the choice of both male and female playable characters and you played as female
And then you'd have a sense of how many players who had a stated preference ended up going against that preference, and how many players who had no stated preference ended up playing male anyway just because of what was available?
posted by RobotHero at 2:27 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, maybe I'm going into the realm of This is the Survey I'd Like Someone to Do instead of just the survey they did, but I think an interesting follow-up to the reported preference would be something like
1 - What was the most recent video game you played?
2 - Did it have
A: only one playable character and it's male
B: only one playable character and it's female
C: No playable character (abstract puzzle game, etc.)
D: only playable characters of undetermined gender
E: the choice of more than one playable character and all were male
F: the choice of more than one playable character and all were female
G: the choice of both male and female playable characters and you played as male
H: the choice of both male and female playable characters and you played as female
And then you'd have a sense of how many players who had a stated preference ended up going against that preference, and how many players who had no stated preference ended up playing male anyway just because of what was available?
posted by RobotHero at 2:27 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
it's devoid of much context about the kind of games she's talking about vis-a-vis the rest of the world, ie that they're horrible crap, some of which barely count as games at all, all of which exist to sell overpriced DLC or move products.
What, the lead article? Those are the kind of games 12 year olds play.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:40 PM on March 15, 2015
What, the lead article? Those are the kind of games 12 year olds play.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:40 PM on March 15, 2015
Another Frozen data point -- my 8 year old says she likes elsa because "she's an ice wizard and she sings the best song."
posted by KathrynT at 2:52 PM on March 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 2:52 PM on March 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
What, the lead article? Those are the kind of games 12 year olds play.
Well, that and web games, Facebook games, and console games, including some handheld console games and cheap/free XBMP games, some of which are actually made by kids. There's even that one PC game lots of the young'uns play, someone help me out here, Kraftwerk maybe?
Horrible iOS shovelware is what you get when you are the kind of 12-year-old kid whose parents a) let her have her own iPhone, b) are very very very concerned about what kind of games she's playing on it, but not enough to either put their foot down and be a "strict mom" or actually do their research and come up with good suggestions, and most importantly c) don't actually play or understand games themselves, so that you read articles like this and think "the problem" is that there isn't an option for a stick figure with a bow on it on the $9.99 Bear Grylls flashgame piece of crap written in one twelve hour adderall binge by whatever fresh-out-of-college mook Bear Grylls management paid to dump on the App Store that your 12-year-old daughter is playing during slumber parties on her own personal iPhone.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, that and web games, Facebook games, and console games, including some handheld console games and cheap/free XBMP games, some of which are actually made by kids. There's even that one PC game lots of the young'uns play, someone help me out here, Kraftwerk maybe?
Horrible iOS shovelware is what you get when you are the kind of 12-year-old kid whose parents a) let her have her own iPhone, b) are very very very concerned about what kind of games she's playing on it, but not enough to either put their foot down and be a "strict mom" or actually do their research and come up with good suggestions, and most importantly c) don't actually play or understand games themselves, so that you read articles like this and think "the problem" is that there isn't an option for a stick figure with a bow on it on the $9.99 Bear Grylls flashgame piece of crap written in one twelve hour adderall binge by whatever fresh-out-of-college mook Bear Grylls management paid to dump on the App Store that your 12-year-old daughter is playing during slumber parties on her own personal iPhone.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also they show on the slides: "Girls what games do you play?" and "Boys, what games do you THINK girls play?"
Which I kind of want to compare but I'm also kind of hesitant to compare. Because is asking "what games do you play?" asking about you as an individual, while "what games do girls play?" is asking about a group? So can we actually get anything from that comparison?
Like, I think we learn from the former that 26% of girls surveyed played FPS. But what do we learn from the latter? Is it that boys think 66% of girls play FPS? Or that 66% of boys think at least some girls play FPS?
posted by RobotHero at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2015
Which I kind of want to compare but I'm also kind of hesitant to compare. Because is asking "what games do you play?" asking about you as an individual, while "what games do girls play?" is asking about a group? So can we actually get anything from that comparison?
Like, I think we learn from the former that 26% of girls surveyed played FPS. But what do we learn from the latter? Is it that boys think 66% of girls play FPS? Or that 66% of boys think at least some girls play FPS?
posted by RobotHero at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2015
One small data point: The game Payday 2 (cop killing and bag throwing simulator GOTY) released a new character called Bonnie, the second female playable character. You can see her picture here: http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Bonnie
She has some awesome dialogue and I plan to play her a lot.
Of course a lot of players are bitching why the professional bank robber does not look like a fashion model. The first female character, Clover, enraged some players because she did not look like Megan Fox.
I judge payday 2 heisters by their dialogue and both characters are excellent.
posted by clockworkjoe at 3:30 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
She has some awesome dialogue and I plan to play her a lot.
Of course a lot of players are bitching why the professional bank robber does not look like a fashion model. The first female character, Clover, enraged some players because she did not look like Megan Fox.
I judge payday 2 heisters by their dialogue and both characters are excellent.
posted by clockworkjoe at 3:30 PM on March 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Holy fucking Christ. Those characters took *serious* guts and willpower to get published. Huge, huge props to Overkill/Starbreeze on that. Payday series was always a "never enough time" for me, but you just changed that.
posted by Ryvar at 3:37 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ryvar at 3:37 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cool Papa Bell: "I bet I could ask 100 little girls why they liked Frozen, and not one would say "because she makes ice with her hands."
"
"I know Burch interview close to 1,600 kids about gender in media, but my big dumb gut refutes her. Furthermore, what is girls??"
posted by boo_radley at 4:50 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
"
"I know Burch interview close to 1,600 kids about gender in media, but my big dumb gut refutes her. Furthermore, what is girls??"
posted by boo_radley at 4:50 PM on March 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can safely say H: the choice of both male and female playable characters and you played as female
I definitely have a character type - female mage or equivalent, elf by preference - that I will go to if given the choice. My partner gives me not-inconsiderable grief for this - telling me I should prefer to play males and occasionally accusing me of 3rd-person-butt-watching. (Please game industry - make more first person FRPGs - co-op too - so I don't have to have that conversation again!). It's hard to explain that Titania is just cooler than Oberon.
So I make the characters look like my partner if there's personalisation options, name them after her and tell her all about the adventures she is having which she finds just.amusing.enough to tolerate. But it's kind of funny how strongly she feels that it's weird that I should want to play with a transavatar. And it's quite interesting that even in the sample here, it's not an uncommon thing at all.
posted by Sparx at 5:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I definitely have a character type - female mage or equivalent, elf by preference - that I will go to if given the choice. My partner gives me not-inconsiderable grief for this - telling me I should prefer to play males and occasionally accusing me of 3rd-person-butt-watching. (Please game industry - make more first person FRPGs - co-op too - so I don't have to have that conversation again!). It's hard to explain that Titania is just cooler than Oberon.
So I make the characters look like my partner if there's personalisation options, name them after her and tell her all about the adventures she is having which she finds just.amusing.enough to tolerate. But it's kind of funny how strongly she feels that it's weird that I should want to play with a transavatar. And it's quite interesting that even in the sample here, it's not an uncommon thing at all.
posted by Sparx at 5:09 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The worst part, though, was when my girlfriend discovered that you can play with a pretty well-rendered female avatar if you choose...except the opening sequence and ALL the cut-scenes and dialogue still kick you right back to the default male character.
The female option was added after the game was already released, based on demand from players, and as such it is clearly tacked on.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:12 PM on March 15, 2015
The female option was added after the game was already released, based on demand from players, and as such it is clearly tacked on.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:12 PM on March 15, 2015
The most compelling data point for game developers is the fact that girls in high school are far more likely to prefer to play female characters than boys of the same age are likely to prefer to play male characters.
Only 39 percent of high-school aged boys surveyed preferred to play as male characters, while 60 percent of high-school aged girls preferred to play as female characters.
I'm not surprised by this and it definitely lines up with my experience, but I don't really understand it. Does anybody have any idea why this is?
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:05 PM on March 15, 2015
Only 39 percent of high-school aged boys surveyed preferred to play as male characters, while 60 percent of high-school aged girls preferred to play as female characters.
I'm not surprised by this and it definitely lines up with my experience, but I don't really understand it. Does anybody have any idea why this is?
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:05 PM on March 15, 2015
I'm not surprised by this and it definitely lines up with my experience, but I don't really understand it. Does anybody have any idea why this is?
Total conjecture based solely on my own viewpoint: as a guy (and a white guy at that), I have no trouble finding plenty of game characters (or, really, fictional characters at all) I can identify with. Theoretically, that makes the chance to try on a different role something appealing.
Conversely, if I'm female (or a minority) and I hardly ever see my own demographic in games, then I'm gonna jump at the chance to play that character I identify with, rather than playing the same old Default White Dude option every other game gives me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:16 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Total conjecture based solely on my own viewpoint: as a guy (and a white guy at that), I have no trouble finding plenty of game characters (or, really, fictional characters at all) I can identify with. Theoretically, that makes the chance to try on a different role something appealing.
Conversely, if I'm female (or a minority) and I hardly ever see my own demographic in games, then I'm gonna jump at the chance to play that character I identify with, rather than playing the same old Default White Dude option every other game gives me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:16 PM on March 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The stock answer is, "I want to look at her butt, hurr!" at least if you are talking about 3rd person perspective games. I think it might be a chicken or egg thing, girls want to play as girls because so many games don't let them and boys want to play as girls for a change of pace.
I definitely felt distinctive personalities for all my WoW toons based on species and gender and stuff, but most games I just don't care either way.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2015
I definitely felt distinctive personalities for all my WoW toons based on species and gender and stuff, but most games I just don't care either way.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2015
Here's a bit more about Madeline Messer and her WaPo piece: 12-Year-Old Speaks Out Against Gender Gap In iPhone Games
posted by homunculus at 7:27 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by homunculus at 7:27 PM on March 15, 2015
I just asked my partner, and she said that she prefers to play female characters because she likes to project herself into them and be the person having the adventure. I'm a roleplaying nerd and all, but I always think of the character as someone else outside of myself, more like a puppet than an embodiment of myself, so I don't need it to be like me. Maybe that desire to project yourself into the character is more common in women and girls? I really don't know.
Total conjecture based solely on my own viewpoint: as a guy (and a white guy at that), I have no trouble finding plenty of game characters (or, really, fictional characters at all) I can identify with. Theoretically, that makes the chance to try on a different role something appealing.
This makes some sense too. I wonder if we'd get similar results if someone conducted a study across gamers of different races, if it would turn out that white players are less likely to prefer characters of their own race than minority races.
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:27 PM on March 15, 2015
Total conjecture based solely on my own viewpoint: as a guy (and a white guy at that), I have no trouble finding plenty of game characters (or, really, fictional characters at all) I can identify with. Theoretically, that makes the chance to try on a different role something appealing.
This makes some sense too. I wonder if we'd get similar results if someone conducted a study across gamers of different races, if it would turn out that white players are less likely to prefer characters of their own race than minority races.
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:27 PM on March 15, 2015
My theory is that representation feels more valuable the harder it is to find.
There could also be an element of what Sandra Bartky talks about that women are made to identify the self with the body in a way that men are not, which could extend to virtual bodies.
Two things you could compare it to, 1) is this equal to or stronger than their desire for female characters in TV, movies, books, comics, etc. 2) visible minorities, for example do black players want black characters in video games to the same degree.
posted by RobotHero at 7:33 PM on March 15, 2015
There could also be an element of what Sandra Bartky talks about that women are made to identify the self with the body in a way that men are not, which could extend to virtual bodies.
Two things you could compare it to, 1) is this equal to or stronger than their desire for female characters in TV, movies, books, comics, etc. 2) visible minorities, for example do black players want black characters in video games to the same degree.
posted by RobotHero at 7:33 PM on March 15, 2015
(I will add, not just how prevalent male main characters are in games...but in media in general. It's understandable people will take an option to explore something else. It's possible games might be slightly ahead of other media because so many games let you choose. And as for those Mass Effect books, why not write a story that could be gender swapped with two different editions released? It seems odd for a lot of reasons similar to what is going down with Ghostbusters right now, but if it's otherwise the same book it's just a version of what games do anyway? Failing that, obviously Femshep should have been official because she is just plain better.)
posted by Drinky Die at 7:37 PM on March 15, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 7:37 PM on March 15, 2015
But it's kind of funny how strongly she feels that it's weird that I should want to play with a transavatar.
I think for boys and men, it's not as alienating to play avatars of a different gender (or, ime, species) than women, because male characters aren't the default. Women might not quite recognize that, because having female characters be a "special event" is pretty alienating as a background environment, and on a general level it tends to make women and girls more interested and invested in playing own gender avatars.
Plus, guys who play female characters to look at pixelated waifu ass is totally a thing, so you're probably getting tarred by the brush of Bayonetta fanboys.
The thing I've noticed, even in myself in comparison to my male friends/crew, is that it actually extends way beyond just gender. Even my female friends and guildies are vastly less willing to play "monster" type races or characters with ugly/unattractive features, whereas even the guys who have strong preferences for cross or same gender avatars tend to be like "wait, you mean I can play a shambling zombie skeleton man with no lower jaw and a huge waggling tongue hanging out of his bottom skull hole? SIGN ME UP!", or compete to make the freakiest looking characters. Plenty of them do go for "most generic human male possible", but they're a lot more willing to go weird outside of that too. The ladies though, regardless of game, will choose the prettiest possible race of the human-alikes, and then the prettiest possible options for said race, including a substantial number who like chainmail bikini look and actively choose to make their armor look that way. Some of them will play elves or hoofed demon women or animate plant ladies in preference to humans if those races are more attractive than humans, but that's it, and if we have to play more monstrous races for whatever reason, they'll go for the prettiest and then the most human, every time. I've known quite a few male gamers who had "play weird/ugly/monstrous" characters almost as a schtick and delighted in it, but I've never known a single female who did. I tried diligently turning myself into that kind of person almost out of a sense of obligation, but it's just... nope. Nope, I cannot stand playing this giant ugly cow man and his ugly spellcasting. Can't do it. Bring me the prettiest of the rotting human zombie women!
I've slowly been breaking myself of the urge towards incredibly generic human female everything ever, but it's hard to give up. It was only playing competitively that broke me of it, and I can really only bring myself do it where there's a clear mechanical advantage, or in games where the characters aren't intended to be some kind of avatar, but are clearly supposed to represent a specific dramatis personae. So my Dragon Age type representational RPG characters are all vaguely modeled on me or as generic a [dwarf/plant person/giant hyena lady] as possible, whereas in MOBAs with pre-existing characters I've now come to a place of the weirder the better! Bring me all your superdeformed mummified children, Anubis clones, tri-parate comedy vikings, and alien worm experimental biologists!
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:01 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think for boys and men, it's not as alienating to play avatars of a different gender (or, ime, species) than women, because male characters aren't the default. Women might not quite recognize that, because having female characters be a "special event" is pretty alienating as a background environment, and on a general level it tends to make women and girls more interested and invested in playing own gender avatars.
Plus, guys who play female characters to look at pixelated waifu ass is totally a thing, so you're probably getting tarred by the brush of Bayonetta fanboys.
The thing I've noticed, even in myself in comparison to my male friends/crew, is that it actually extends way beyond just gender. Even my female friends and guildies are vastly less willing to play "monster" type races or characters with ugly/unattractive features, whereas even the guys who have strong preferences for cross or same gender avatars tend to be like "wait, you mean I can play a shambling zombie skeleton man with no lower jaw and a huge waggling tongue hanging out of his bottom skull hole? SIGN ME UP!", or compete to make the freakiest looking characters. Plenty of them do go for "most generic human male possible", but they're a lot more willing to go weird outside of that too. The ladies though, regardless of game, will choose the prettiest possible race of the human-alikes, and then the prettiest possible options for said race, including a substantial number who like chainmail bikini look and actively choose to make their armor look that way. Some of them will play elves or hoofed demon women or animate plant ladies in preference to humans if those races are more attractive than humans, but that's it, and if we have to play more monstrous races for whatever reason, they'll go for the prettiest and then the most human, every time. I've known quite a few male gamers who had "play weird/ugly/monstrous" characters almost as a schtick and delighted in it, but I've never known a single female who did. I tried diligently turning myself into that kind of person almost out of a sense of obligation, but it's just... nope. Nope, I cannot stand playing this giant ugly cow man and his ugly spellcasting. Can't do it. Bring me the prettiest of the rotting human zombie women!
I've slowly been breaking myself of the urge towards incredibly generic human female everything ever, but it's hard to give up. It was only playing competitively that broke me of it, and I can really only bring myself do it where there's a clear mechanical advantage, or in games where the characters aren't intended to be some kind of avatar, but are clearly supposed to represent a specific dramatis personae. So my Dragon Age type representational RPG characters are all vaguely modeled on me or as generic a [dwarf/plant person/giant hyena lady] as possible, whereas in MOBAs with pre-existing characters I've now come to a place of the weirder the better! Bring me all your superdeformed mummified children, Anubis clones, tri-parate comedy vikings, and alien worm experimental biologists!
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:01 PM on March 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just wanted to note what a great article this was, in so many ways.
First, the author is 12 years old. Seriously, I don't think most seniors in high school (and many folks in university) can pen an article that articulate, clear, and with such a well developed vocabulary.
Secondly, the spirit of science that was present in the article: the girl saw some behavior in the real world and wondered if it was a real phenomenon, then went to conduct an experiment, collected data, then presented the results of that experiment in an easy to understand (and compelling) format.
Finally, there was an explicate call to action that was worded in the most reasonable possible ways; if people don't address this problem then they are going to lose their (huge percentage) of customers.
Now, I'm sure that her parents were supportive (or I assume so), but I also assume that she took the initiative and then followed through. I'm also sure that she had an editor that looked at her piece and made suggestions for improvements; but so do all sorts of professional writers (especially those at newspapers).
I'm also quite impressed with the quality of discussion in the comments. The few comments that negatively attacked her did so in a way that tried to diminish the science behind her article (and those were addressed in a compelling manner by other comments).
I imagine a ton of folks in the gaming industry are going to read this article (and many will feel shame), and I also imagine that this twelve year old will have changed gaming (there will be some games that do better in the future).
While the content of the article was depressing, it wasn't surprising. But the fact that a 12 year old wrote this, and it got published in WashPo gives me hope for the future.
I've certainly seen 3rd year comp-sci students in university that can't write with the level of articulation and persuasiveness that this young girl can.
posted by el io at 8:48 PM on March 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
First, the author is 12 years old. Seriously, I don't think most seniors in high school (and many folks in university) can pen an article that articulate, clear, and with such a well developed vocabulary.
Secondly, the spirit of science that was present in the article: the girl saw some behavior in the real world and wondered if it was a real phenomenon, then went to conduct an experiment, collected data, then presented the results of that experiment in an easy to understand (and compelling) format.
Finally, there was an explicate call to action that was worded in the most reasonable possible ways; if people don't address this problem then they are going to lose their (huge percentage) of customers.
Now, I'm sure that her parents were supportive (or I assume so), but I also assume that she took the initiative and then followed through. I'm also sure that she had an editor that looked at her piece and made suggestions for improvements; but so do all sorts of professional writers (especially those at newspapers).
I'm also quite impressed with the quality of discussion in the comments. The few comments that negatively attacked her did so in a way that tried to diminish the science behind her article (and those were addressed in a compelling manner by other comments).
I imagine a ton of folks in the gaming industry are going to read this article (and many will feel shame), and I also imagine that this twelve year old will have changed gaming (there will be some games that do better in the future).
While the content of the article was depressing, it wasn't surprising. But the fact that a 12 year old wrote this, and it got published in WashPo gives me hope for the future.
I've certainly seen 3rd year comp-sci students in university that can't write with the level of articulation and persuasiveness that this young girl can.
posted by el io at 8:48 PM on March 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
The biggest innovation is that the orcs can develop personalities and refer back to events that happened in the game only because of your actions -- if you throw one in a fire in a fight and he survives, he'll complain about it later, etc.
Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system is amazing--here's how it works
posted by homunculus at 9:11 PM on March 15, 2015
Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system is amazing--here's how it works
posted by homunculus at 9:11 PM on March 15, 2015
If I'm allowed a choice, I'll always play as a female character. I'll also go with a different race if I can. It's a small thing, and usually doesn't mean anything within the context of the game, but I've been a white dude for over 40 years, and with stubble and short hair for most of those.
posted by Legomancer at 5:26 AM on March 16, 2015
posted by Legomancer at 5:26 AM on March 16, 2015
I definitely tend to play female characters--even in a game where I have three different characters, all are female.
I don't really identify with them, but I was definitely thinking in terms of representation when I made that choice. Playing a female character that has identical role to the male characters is something I wanted to do, because so often, female characters are either absent or (at least partially) defined and othered by their femaleness.
The only other girl gamer that I know well also prefers to play female characters, and even pointed out to me that I could change the gender of a character (default: male, of course) when we started a new game. "You're still male," she said, assuming that I had overlooked the option to change it. She does not question it when guys aren't playing guys, though.
But the boy gamers I know are more flexible. Males are still the majority of their characters but they also play females. I don't think it's to look at their butts--there aren't great views of butts in these games. I think gender representation isn't as much as an issue for them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:44 AM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't really identify with them, but I was definitely thinking in terms of representation when I made that choice. Playing a female character that has identical role to the male characters is something I wanted to do, because so often, female characters are either absent or (at least partially) defined and othered by their femaleness.
The only other girl gamer that I know well also prefers to play female characters, and even pointed out to me that I could change the gender of a character (default: male, of course) when we started a new game. "You're still male," she said, assuming that I had overlooked the option to change it. She does not question it when guys aren't playing guys, though.
But the boy gamers I know are more flexible. Males are still the majority of their characters but they also play females. I don't think it's to look at their butts--there aren't great views of butts in these games. I think gender representation isn't as much as an issue for them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:44 AM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a male gamer who generally prefers playing female characters, which is one part complex sense of gender identity and one part noticing an under-representation of women in video games at an early age. The game that got me into turn-based RPGs was Phantasy Star, and one of the reasons it hooked me was that the main character was a woman. As a kid, I thought that was so cool because there were hardly any video games with female main characters and wondered why that was and why there weren't more girls my age into video games. I later became obsessed with Metroid mostly because of Samus' gender (additionally because of awesome music). I always wanted to see more video games with women as protagonists. I still do -- I'm upset that we haven't fixed this by now.
So now, pretty much all my Harvest Moon and Skyrim and Fallout and Saints Row and whatever characters are female (though all the Saints Row characters do use the Michael Caine knockoff voice).
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2015
So now, pretty much all my Harvest Moon and Skyrim and Fallout and Saints Row and whatever characters are female (though all the Saints Row characters do use the Michael Caine knockoff voice).
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2015
RobotHero
In reverse chronological order, the last 5 games were DBHHD. I don't know about before that.
posted by yeolcoatl at 2:16 PM on March 16, 2015
In reverse chronological order, the last 5 games were DBHHD. I don't know about before that.
posted by yeolcoatl at 2:16 PM on March 16, 2015
only 46 percent offered girl characters.... of these 50 apps, 90 percent offered boy characters for free, while only 15 percent offered girl characters for free.
That is pretty significant research. Good job, Madeline Messer!
posted by DarlingBri at 11:30 PM on March 16, 2015
That is pretty significant research. Good job, Madeline Messer!
posted by DarlingBri at 11:30 PM on March 16, 2015
Chell being the playser-character in Portal was such a delightful break from things. But sometimes, when I play HL games, I ignore the cover art and assume that Gordon is a woman's name because I never see myself in-game and nobody can tell me different.
In Elite: Dangerous, it's first person in a cockpit, but you can look around and look down at yourself and there's a pilot gender setting so it's just nice to see that, yeah, I have an awesome spaceship but also I have tits in-game.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:30 AM on March 19, 2015
In Elite: Dangerous, it's first person in a cockpit, but you can look around and look down at yourself and there's a pilot gender setting so it's just nice to see that, yeah, I have an awesome spaceship but also I have tits in-game.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:30 AM on March 19, 2015
Shadow of Mordor has been a lot of fun, although the opening sequence & premise--your wife and son are murdered in front of you and now you're out for revenge!--is like nails on chalkboard given the general dialogue about games lately. I'm telling myself that it's a silly Punisher-in-Middle Earth crossover fanfic (Frank Castle: Ranger of Gondor!), and on that level I can still enjoy it, but...damn.
Another thing about the intro: Kissing vs. killing: How Shadow of Mordor fails at explaining the difference
posted by homunculus at 6:03 PM on April 3, 2015
Another thing about the intro: Kissing vs. killing: How Shadow of Mordor fails at explaining the difference
posted by homunculus at 6:03 PM on April 3, 2015
Creators of Temple Run says they will add free female character.
posted by RobotHero at 3:06 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 3:06 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
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