The least favorite Avenger
April 17, 2015 6:57 AM   Subscribe

 
"The least favorite Avenger"?

How soon they forget...
posted by MrJM at 7:06 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm quite prepared to like Ant-Man more than Hawkeye.
posted by Foosnark at 7:27 AM on April 17, 2015


Yeah, Scott Lang isn't even the least favorite Ant-Man.

Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man was really enjoyable.
posted by whir at 7:29 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Scott Lang isn't even the least favorite Ant-Man.

He's not a wife beater and he never invented Ultron, so that's a lot going for him.
posted by Artw at 7:31 AM on April 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


I'm quite prepared to like Ant-Man more than Hawkeye.

Every time someone says they don't like Hawkeye, I have to fight the urge to sit them down with a copy of Matt Fraction's Hawkeye volume one and yell PIZZA DOG! PIZZA DOG! until they see the error of their ways.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2015 [23 favorites]


When I first heard about Ant-Man, several years ago, I was put out. I was always much more an X-title fellow, so the Avengers background was not in my registrar and I couldn't believe that a movie about a guy who shrinks could be a good one compared to other titles, like the Black Panther, for example. I still think that the world wasn't ready for Ant-Man years ago, but enough Marvel movies have saturated the public consciousness to make almost anything possible.

The teaser really didn't excite me. I watched the trailer last night and found myself thinking, "Well, shucks, maybe I will go see it after all." Though, there's a creepy vibe coming through from Michael Douglas and his beard. I don't know why.
posted by Atreides at 7:42 AM on April 17, 2015


Though, there's a creepy vibe coming through from Michael Douglas and his beard. I don't know why.

Probably because it's Michael Douglas.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 7:48 AM on April 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


Really won't be sold on this until Michael Douglas says, "This is your chance to be the bigger man."
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:52 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


I watched the trailer last night and found myself thinking, "Well, shucks, maybe I will go see it after all."

Yeah, the trailer turned this movie from a "what the hell are they thinking" to "hey, this looks fun and could work". Poking fun at the name is a good move.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:54 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Plot of Iron Man 1 (partial): Iron man armor technology stolen by bad guy, Iron Man has to fight him. Plot of Iron Man 2 (partial): Iron Man armor technology stolen by bad guy, Iron Man has to fight a lot of robo-him, alongside another Iron Man pal. Plot of Iron Man 3: more Iron Mans than you can shake a stick at. Plot of the Flash series (partial): oh dear there's a bad Flash.

There's plenty more but you get the idea: kinda bored with superhero stories that consist of oh no goodguy power appropriated by bad guy. It was kinda cool in Superman II because hey, Terence Stamp and Sarah Douglas, but then they had to go and do it again without them because, hey, all it needed was to have the joy sucked out of it.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:55 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well at least it isn't that garbage looking Superman/Batman thing.
posted by Artw at 8:00 AM on April 17, 2015 [11 favorites]


I believe you mean "Irons Man".
posted by murphy slaw at 8:01 AM on April 17, 2015 [9 favorites]


Superior Foes of Spiderman interview - I totally missed this comic as it was coming out, which is a shame as it's really great stuff.
posted by Artw at 8:01 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Plot of Iron Man 1 (partial): Iron man armor technology stolen by bad guy, Iron Man has to fight him. Plot of Iron Man 2 (partial): Iron Man armor technology stolen by bad guy, Iron Man has to fight a lot of robo-him, alongside another Iron Man pal. Plot of Iron Man 3: more Iron Mans than you can shake a stick at.

That's an interesting way of looking at and I see your point, but I view the larger theme as being about power, how to get it, how to keep and what to do with it. Naturally people will go to different lengths and go down different paths, so it keeps things interesting. Plus it's a common theme with plenty of room for variations.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:08 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


That's an interesting way of looking at and I see your point, but I view the larger theme as being about power, how to get it, how to keep and what to do with it.

Or doesn't it explicitly avoid the writer having to think about any of those things? Most distinctly the last two, because "how to keep it and what to do with it" are, respectively, "punch the bad guy who stole it in the face before he does the same to you", and "punch the bad guy who stole it in the face, period."
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:21 AM on April 17, 2015


While I wish they would have let Edgar Wright make his film, what I really, really wish is that Marvel would have gone with Robert Kirkman's The Irredeemable Ant-Man instead. (... Suggestions on casting "The Irredeemable" Eric O'Grady?)
posted by Auden at 8:31 AM on April 17, 2015


Most distinctly the last two, because "how to keep it and what to do with it" are, respectively, "punch the bad guy who stole it in the face before he does the same to you", and "punch the bad guy who stole it in the face, period."

Iron Man 2 is all about vengeance and pretty light weight, IMO. Definitely could have been better.

IM3 is about Tony achieving a certain level of power, discovering various issues that come with it and then cleaning up a mess from his antics and deciding how he wants to cope with power in the future (get rid of most of it).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Age of Ultron will be like the 4th time he fights a threat he basically invented, though, so maybe he could do that less.
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on April 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Age of Ultron will be like the 4th time he fights a threat he basically invented, though, so maybe he could do that less.

He developed godlike technology. Of course other people are going to steal it, reverse engineer it, what have you. I don't have a problem with that being a constant storyline, especially when Stark's involved of the bad guy tech varies.

IM had Stark's arc reactor stolen to power a reverse engineered suit.

IM2 had Mickey Rourke and his bad accent build a similar, but less powerful arc reactor, which was used to power robotic drones that Rourke designed (without the help of his bird).

IM3 featured the Extremis technology which was developed by the female scientist and Killian stealing the Iron Patriot Armor, which was based on Stark tech, but further developed by US Government scientist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:58 AM on April 17, 2015


so maybe he could do that less.

OTOH, there's some literary merit to that, if that's not too pompous a way to put it: having more or less competely dominated nature, our biggest threat is ourselves. Tony Stark is a kind of fantasy figure: "hey what if we just had somebody really smart and rich and powerful enough to buck authority and just do some super smart thing and fix everything with his smartness, and money, and, um, did I say smartness?" The point being be careful what you wish for and that might not work out so good and also smart isn't necessarily all that smart when you don't foresee the unintended consequences.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:00 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Wasp would have made for a better title and a more refreshing starting point. Marvel has numerous arthropodically-named female protagonists who deserve their own movies. Black Widow and Spider Woman also spring to mind (I was hoping Marvel had at some point created Lobster Lady or Mantis Shrimp Girl, but I just searched and unfortunately that seems not to be the case).

It sounds like they will have to give Janet van Dyne the Peggy Carter "period piece" treatment if they ever intend to make a movie (or show) for The Wasp, since evidently they are killing her off to justify Hank Pym's inspiration.

They should have cast E O Wilson as Hank Pym, not creepy Michael Douglas. He is a brilliant biologist and also a bad-ass. According to his Wikipedia article, "Wilson blinded himself in one eye in a fishing accident. He suffered for hours, but he continued fishing." (And that was when he was 7.) Then he went on to write The Ants and won a Pulitzer... If ever an Ant-Man there was...
posted by tempestuoso at 9:02 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Just seeing this trailer makes me understand why marvel didn't work out with Edgar Wright. They are really sticking with the style of the other mcu films. I like the jokes in here so far, but I'm not convinced there will be enough of them for my taste.

I guess what I'm saying is, this trailer made me really interested in the Deadpool movie.
posted by dogwalker at 9:02 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


(Offtopic comment, but we're discussing the second teaser for Ant-Man, "the least favorite Avenger" per the title. We're discussing the second teaser for Episode VII. Meanwhile, apparently the first teaser for Superman vs Batman dropped at the same time - the two headline characters of the DC Universe - and I haven't bothered to watch it yet, and there's no thread about it either. Did I miss it? Are DC just really out of touch? They no longer seem ... relevant.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:35 AM on April 17, 2015


Well at least it isn't that garbage looking Superman/Batman thing.

"Do you bleed? You will. Out your ears once you listen to any more of a script with lines lifted straight from that early 90s AT&T commercial."
posted by weston at 9:36 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


DUUUUUUUURN
posted by Artw at 9:44 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Why grim and gritty Daredevil works whereas the reaction to SvB seems to be "not this dark shit again!" is an interesting question.
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on April 17, 2015


Why grim and gritty Daredevil works whereas the reaction to SvB seems to be "not this dark shit again!" is an interesting question.

Daredevil has only ever worked when grim and gritty.

Superman has never worked when grim and gritty.

Batman can go either way.
posted by davros42 at 9:50 AM on April 17, 2015 [13 favorites]


Just don't try to do both, like the Clooney Batman and Robin. "Campdark" is not a thing. It sounds like it ought to be, but it's not.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:55 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Rises was kind of getting there, but I may be alone in my love for that.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on April 17, 2015


Still waiting for the Iron Fist movie starring Eric Roberts.
posted by ryoshu at 10:07 AM on April 17, 2015


Why grim and gritty Daredevil works whereas the reaction to SvB seems to be "not this dark shit again!" is an interesting question.

Grim and gritty Daredevil works because there's some warmth there to offset the grim, plus Daredevil hasn't been done to death in recent memory. Also, I posit that the wide variety of tones and styles on offer in the MCU (both in the TV and movie offerings) means that when we get a bit of grimdark MCU, it feels somewhat fresh. Compare to the DC movies, which have been either uniformly grimdark or awful, or both grimdark and awful.

Bringing it back to Ant-Man: I know why he's my least favorite Avenger in the MCU! Because where is my motherfucking Black Widow movie. I have been determined to have nothing to do with this movie ever since it was announced because fuck you, Black Widow or bust.
posted by yasaman at 10:08 AM on April 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, apparently the first teaser for Superman vs Batman dropped at the same time ... I miss it?

Naw, you didn't miss anything.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:11 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


kinda bored with superhero stories that consist of oh no goodguy power appropriated by bad guy

You forgot Hulk fights a bigger hulk (who was a failed attempt at a supersoldier), Captain America fights the Red Skull prototype supersoldier, Captain America fights Zola's attempt to make a supersoldier.

The real problem is that movie makers are too conservative. They don't want to create profligate worlds full of superheroic wonders. They think they need to add as few wonders as necessary. If we have to have a super-soldier formula to give us Captain America, then we use that formula to explain all the super villains. Superman is from Krypton, so anything else super is explained by from-Krypton. In X-men movies, anyone with superpowers is a mutant. Fantastic Four get their powers from space? Their villain Doom gets weird electric powers from the same cosmic radiation. Tony is a technology supergenius? Any sci-fi tech stuff is Stark Tech.

Thor, Avengers, and Guardians of the Galaxy are the only movies that have been willing to commit to a full-on Universe full of Marvels.
posted by straight at 10:24 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Everything is an infinity gem!"
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Is it bad I laughed at the post Thomas The Tank Engine scene?
posted by Samizdata at 10:30 AM on April 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Oh, and Captain America is a Stark invention as well, roll on Civil War. :-)
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on April 17, 2015


Why grim and gritty Daredevil works whereas the reaction to SvB seems to be "not this dark shit again!" is an interesting question.

I've only seen 3 episodes of DareDevil, but I think the grim and gritty works there because...its grim and gritty. Daredevil bleeds, gets exhausted by fighting and gets beat up pretty bad in violent world. Batman, even the Dark Knight, is a cartoon in comparison. Daredevil captures the noir feeling really well, through a contrast of colorful light and the grim dark. He exists on the ground and you get the feeling you could run into him anywhere.

Batman, the grown up rich boy with parental issues who really should have grown out of that shit, swoops down like a super powered god. Daredevil feels like he grew up in Hell's Kitchen, fighting physically, mentally and emotionally. He doesn't have daddy issues per se, he learned great lessons and developed a formidable will from his dad. Batman moped around and got a little crazy because he never really had to work.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]




Is it bad I laughed at the post Thomas The Tank Engine scene?

Why would it be bad? I assume it's supposed to be funny. At least I laughed as well.
posted by aldurtregi at 11:22 AM on April 17, 2015


Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man was really enjoyable.

Indeed, much more enjoyable than the parent book. (I used to really like Dan Slott's work before he took over as Spider-Man writer, but ever since Brand New Day, the title and the character have basically been one feckless gimmick after another; the "Superior Spider-Man" story was all about Dr. Octopus taking over Peter Parker's body, a plot that most sci-fi TV shows would dispose of in a single episode, but in the comic this went on for what seemed like years. There have been a few good moments--the recent Spider-Verse saga had some fun bits in it, particularly--but overall, meh. And it's extra-embarrassing that other writers such as Spencer and Al Ewing in Mighty Avengers have had more fun with Spidey and the supporting cast.)

The Wasp would have made for a better title and a more refreshing starting point. Marvel has numerous arthropodically-named female protagonists who deserve their own movies. Black Widow and Spider Woman also spring to mind (I was hoping Marvel had at some point created Lobster Lady or Mantis Shrimp Girl, but I just searched and unfortunately that seems not to be the case).

The inability of Marvel Studios to put together a Black Widow movie--especially as Natasha was one of the pillars holding up the Captain America sequel--is baffling. And, in terms of possible movies featuring animal-themed heroines (albeit not Arthropoda-inspired), it's Squirrel Girl or GTFO.

Batman, the grown up rich boy with parental issues who really should have grown out of that shit, swoops down like a super powered god. Daredevil feels like he grew up in Hell's Kitchen, fighting physically, mentally and emotionally. He doesn't have daddy issues per se, he learned great lessons and developed a formidable will from his dad. Batman moped around and got a little crazy because he never really had to work.

Yeah. Murdock doesn't have a stately manor with a perfectly-formed cave underneath it to brood in, or a heavily-customized vehicle to take him to and from crime scenes (and which, oddly, never gets stuck in traffic), or an SAS-trained butler to stitch him up. He had to get through college and law school via scholarships, had to build his own practice (and has had to re-build it on occasion, depending on whether or not he's getting along with Foggy Nelson at the moment), sometimes has had to hustle for cases. It's probably not coincidental that maybe the best Daredevil story arc ever begins with Murdock having finally made it well enough to own his own brownstone... which is shortly destroyed, along with the rest of his life.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:25 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I didn't read Superior Spider-Man, but him showing up in Mighty Avengers and being a total dick was fun.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Daredevil feels like he grew up in Hell's Kitchen, fighting physically, mentally and emotionally. He doesn't have daddy issues per se, he learned great lessons and developed a formidable will from his dad. Batman moped around and got a little crazy because he never really had to work.

Absolutely! Contrast all the scenes where we're supposed to think Batman is a badass because he won't let his butler make him stay in bed with all the scenes where Murdock staggers out of the shower, puts his glasses on over his busted face and limps into work because that deposition is today and he has to show up.
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:50 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


The schtick in Superior Spider-Man about Octavius being a better Spider-Man than Peter Parker was pretty amusing but it did overstay its welcome by about a dozen issues.
posted by murphy slaw at 1:13 PM on April 17, 2015


Every time someone says they don't like Hawkeye, I have to fight the urge to sit them down with a copy of Matt Fraction's Hawkeye volume one and yell PIZZA DOG! PIZZA DOG! until they see the error of their ways.


Deadpool doesn't understand.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:06 PM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Why grim and gritty Daredevil works whereas the reaction to SvB seems to be "not this dark shit again!" is an interesting question.

Daredevil's story puts in the work to earn a carefully-crafted dark tone instead of trying to slap a grim 'n gritty filter on some hacky action story, and more importantly Daredevil's creative team doesn't overreach and fall flat on their faces trying too hard to sound cool while Zach Snyder in Frank Miller mode is essentially Dwight Schrute.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:57 PM on April 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


I didn't read Superior Spider-Man

I did. It was great. Superior Foes of Spiderman was too. I want that on Netflix.
Daredevil was amazing last weekend. Totally worth the 13 hours of my life, and I am really looking forward to the "Defenders" now, even though it is not the Defenders I want to see (where's Val? Isaac? Devil-Slayer? Clea?).

Ant-Man's trailer looks amazingly solid, and I am pretty excited for it.

I just finished watching the clean version of SvsB:DOJ and I was just not interested, and io9 has just posted a breakdown, if anyone cares (spoiler: most people don't, we're talking Fantastic Four levels of apathy).

In breaking Avengers news, Marvel has just done this: 12 Years A Slave Writer-Producer Working On New Marvel Show For ABC.
I've not seen 12 Years, nor his American Crime show, but that seems really promising for something.
I'm idly speculating now, but I'm thinking a version of Mighty Avengers, Misty Knight and the Daughters of the Dragon/Fearless Defenders or Black Goliath. But people are also saying Runaways... it could go right so many ways.

Also, Hank hit his wife *once* (and Shooter says it was an art mistake but, well, Ms Marvel happened under his watch too) ... his wife who tricked him into marrying her when he was mentally ill and incapable of rational thought or informed consent. That's one messed up family.
posted by Mezentian at 11:19 PM on April 17, 2015


I was all worried after Wright jumped ship, but I really dig that trailer. A good mix of drama and humor.
posted by brundlefly at 2:48 AM on April 18, 2015


How soon they forget...

Yeah, everyone brings up Gilgamesh, but what about Triathalon.... or Rage?
Or Doctor Druid. Fuck that guy, man.

I must admit, initially I dug Dr Druid, but he was such a whiny pants about Captain Marvel that, ugh, no wonder he betrayed the Avengers. (Also, I have series issues with that list. Moon Knight? Awesome in WCA, well before Ellis got a hold of him).
posted by Mezentian at 5:15 AM on April 18, 2015


Hm. Well, as long as it's edited as well as the trailer and we haven't already see all the good bits in the trailer, it could be a fun popcorn flick. The thing is, a fun popcorn flick seems a little . . . . unambitious? underwhelming? in the context of the MCU. Especially since it'll be yet another origin story. . . . . .

I mean, I get that the complications of actually developing and producing a movie made the timing impossible, but Marvel & co. could have done something really interesting with this film, like make it something close to a full-on classic tragedy. Make it the Hank & Janet Pym story (making the Janet role equal to the Hank role), set it in the 60's/70's, and keep Pym as the creator of Ultron. Ant-Man and the Wasp start the movie as equal partners, but Hank's increasing arrogance and instability lead to the destruction of the marriage and ultimately to the creation of Ultron (maybe as a sort of false flag operation where Pym creates Ultron just so he can make a big comeback splash.) A strong supporting role for Peggy Carter as the head of SHIELD, crucial in stopping Ultron. Hank and/or Janet actually die no-kidding for-real, and Ultron escapes from Earth, spending the next 40 years off-world rebuilding and improving itself & its army until it basically pops up out of nowhere and the modern Avengers have to figure out what this thing even is before they can figure out how to defeat it.

There are some hints out there that there'll be a bit of the Michael Douglas Hank Pym as a hero who Made Mistakes, but I suspect we'll only get a little of that in flashback. As opposed to going whole hog into making that story, which would mean a big-time superhero movie where things don't end well, which would be an interesting change of pace.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:17 AM on April 18, 2015


...and keep Pym as the creator of Ultron.

Yeah, that idea sailed a loooong time ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:44 AM on April 18, 2015


True, true, but as long as I'm making up theoretical movies in my head . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 10:20 AM on April 18, 2015


I too am in the camp that wasn't looking forward to Ant-Man because of what a mess the production's been, but this trailer is promising enough. I still lament the loss of Wright though. I get wanting to keep a house style, but they let Gunn put some pretty Gunn-y stuff in Guardians and Avengers reeks of Whedon. Not to mention giving Whedon the first Avengers was a much bigger gamble given his track record at the time in terms of successful movies. Don't get me wrong, I love most of his work, but Serenity didn't exactly make bank. That first Avengers was something they'd been building to for so long. Maybe Whedon was more willing to compromise, etc. but it sure doesn't feel like he did.

As to that Batman vs Superman trailer just... Sigh. There's so much there that seems lifted from Dark Knight Returns and Snyder's always had a Thing for Miller in mostly a bad way and just could you not. It's a shame too because I drunk watched Man Of Steel and while it was terrible, I did like Henry Cavill as Superman. The wasted potential is almost as irritating as the end product itself.
posted by sparkletone at 10:44 AM on April 18, 2015


(I should add that relatively speaking, I don't know that much about comics. Most of it is gleaned from 90s cartoon versions, and some very dilettante-y reading of a small number of things either because of who wrote them or because they're regarded as classics. So no idea who Ant-Man was just that Edgar Wright was dying to make it, and I've mostly loved Wright's movies and that was plenty.)
posted by sparkletone at 10:47 AM on April 18, 2015


Whedon actually addresses what I was saying in this Guardian profile that went up today. His response is entirely reasonable.
posted by sparkletone at 11:30 AM on April 18, 2015


Maybe Whedon was more willing to compromise, etc. but it sure doesn't feel like he did.

He did, a little.
He's a little miffed at the TV division for bringing Coulson back.
posted by Mezentian at 3:36 PM on April 18, 2015


Also, Hank hit his wife *once* (and Shooter says it was an art mistake but, well, Ms Marvel happened under his watch too) ... his wife who tricked him into marrying her when he was mentally ill and incapable of rational thought or informed consent. That's one messed up family.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust Shooter any further than I could throw him, and he's a big man. Here's his version of events, in which he expects us to believe that the same editor-in-chief who had a substantial portion of Uncanny X-Men #137 rewritten and redrawn so that Phoenix would die instead of merely having her powers taken away--that EiC being Jim Shooter, of course--wouldn't ask for one or two panels to be redrawn in a story published under his own name (regardless of whether or not Roger Stern ghost-wrote part of it). Interestingly, the artist, Bob Hall, wrote in to Bleeding Cool to give his side of the story, and while he says that he doesn't "doubt Jim’s story", that's not quite the same as saying "yeah, that's the truth".
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:11 PM on April 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sparkletone, you messed up the link to Whedon's profile in the Guardian.
posted by Pronoiac at 8:11 PM on April 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


I know Shooter is reportedly an unreliable source (although, as a weekly devotee of Comic Book Legends, there are a hell of a lot of then, and really, who can remember some of the minor character points from decades ago), but it does come up each time Hank Pym: Wifebeater gets mentioned.

Speaking of, here's a list of The Greatest Hank Pym Stories Ever Told! (which includes Lost in Space-Time, so is naturally correct).

The Greatest Scott Lang Stories? *piff*. And Scott's not even the worse Ant-Man. There was a third whose name escapes me, probably because he wasn't in the FF.
posted by Mezentian at 12:29 AM on April 19, 2015


Sparkletone, you messed up the link to Whedon's profile in the Guardian.

So I did! Thanks for providing the correct link. It's not long or in-depth or anything, but there's some good bits.
posted by sparkletone at 11:24 AM on April 19, 2015


He's a little miffed at the TV division for bringing Coulson back.

Yeah, I remember that. I was talking more specifically about the process of pitching, writing and then directing the first Avengers movie, not anything that came after. The sort of situation where he could've theoretically ended up leaving the project the way Wright did. The thing with Coulson retroactively degrades the emotional impact of that movie, but unless he's putting Coulson in the second movie, doesn't really affect anything that's directly under Whedon's purview.
posted by sparkletone at 11:27 AM on April 19, 2015


A pointless later resurrection that degrades a previous story is very comics, at least.
posted by Artw at 12:06 PM on April 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


As far as resurrections go, Coulson's was pretty well done. I would hope to see it addressed by the Avengers at some point.

"Dude, we saddled up to avenge you and now you're alive! What the hell were we thinking?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:22 PM on April 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fantastic Four trailer looks a little less sucky...

Also very clear now they are going for the Ultimate origin.
posted by Artw at 2:06 PM on April 19, 2015


Meh.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:04 PM on April 19, 2015


They've never been an interesting group, they've had two movies which were pretty "meh" and the most interesting aspect the relaunch is a the lack johnny storm and that's not much.

There's plenty of other interesting superhero movies and tv, no need to waste and money or subpar offerings.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2015


I'd rather be Yellowjacket, of all Hank Pym's [former] identities.
posted by Grease at 3:13 PM on April 19, 2015


Oh, and Doctor Doom is looking terrible again. Kind of hoping they have someone else up their sleeves like Annilhilus.
posted by Artw at 4:53 PM on April 19, 2015


I'm a Fantastic Four fan, I loved the books when I was a kid because they got into cool sci-fi adventures with outer space and alternate dimensions and whatnot. The semi-recent Ed Brubaker run was pretty good, too, there's a whole plotline where Reed Richards teams up with a bunch of other Reed Richardses from alternate dimensions in order to try to solve all of the problems. So I'm hoping they will actually put out a good movie for once. The Thing is not nearly beetle-browed enough though - I actually think the best cinematic version of him to date has been in the justifiably maligned 1994 Roger Corman picture.
posted by whir at 9:49 PM on April 19, 2015


(Er, oops, I'm thinking of the Johnathan Hickman run, I think.)
posted by whir at 9:56 PM on April 19, 2015


I think movie folk will be scared of doing a comicbook-style Thing for it-won't-work-in-movies reasons until Marvel get the rights back, just fucking do it, and then it works and wasn't a problem at all.
posted by Artw at 10:18 PM on April 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fantastic Four trailer looks a little less sucky...

True.
But I was still not overly impressed.

Also very clear now they are going for the Ultimate origin.

Swapping cosmic rays for a dimensional shift does seem to make sense. I'm not against it.

Oh, and Doctor Doom is looking terrible again. Kind of hoping they have someone else up their sleeves like Annilhilus.

The vibe I got from that was that the Doom character is not an angry blogger, as rumoured, but seems to be basically Annilhilus.
posted by Mezentian at 1:20 AM on April 20, 2015


That's just his hacking mask. You know, like Anonymous?
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2015


That's just his hacking mask. You know, like Anonymous?

I roll an ST Vs Alan Moore lawsuit.
(In the Unseelie Courts, because Alan Moore knows the score and uses irregular courts)
posted by Mezentian at 7:07 AM on April 20, 2015


Doom is an interdimensional traveler this time? That's a step up from from whatever the hell this guy was doing. It would be awesome if this was a Doom from Earth-Comics, attacking Earth-Movies. Every book he used to appear in is cancelled or getting cancelled, after all - he's got some free time.

I want to hear him ranting about how shitty, misogynistic and reductive most of Mark Millar's comics are. I want him to roar with indignation every time they stick him in a shot cribbed from Chris Nolan. In the third act, he'll have the team scattered, the Baxter Building wrecked and Reed strapped into some MacGuffin Machine that'll turn his temples grey and launch them both into the X-Men movie world, where they'll team up to prevent Wolverine getting recast as anyone other than Hugh Jackman.

"HE LOVES THE ROLE AND THE FANS LOVE HIM. SO SPEAKS DOOM!"
posted by EatTheWeak at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2015


Writers for the Captain Marvel film.
posted by Artw at 7:41 AM on April 21, 2015


"Maybe Whedon was more willing to compromise, etc. but it sure doesn't feel like he did."

He's a little miffed at the TV division for bringing Coulson back.

Wait, what?

"Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is an American television series created for ABC by Joss Whedon, Jed Whedon, and Maurissa Tancharoen Whedon" according to Wikipedia. Ie Joss Whedon, his brother, and his sister-in-law.

"In August 2012, ABC ordered a pilot for a series called S.H.I.E.L.D. to be written and directed by Joss Whedon, with Jed Whedon and Maurissa Tancharoen also writing."

Coulson is in the pilot. Which Joss Whedon directed and co-wrote.

Joss Whedon can't be miffed at the TV division for bringing Coulson back -- Joss Whedon is the TV division that brought Coulson back.

I agree with Brandon Blatcher, though, that it's at least pretty well done. There are some major in-universe consequences to that resurrection, and the manner in which it was accomplished.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:59 AM on April 21, 2015


I think Agents being terrible and boring might be the clue that Whedon didn't really have much to do with it except offering up his name.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on April 21, 2015


Eh, the second season is pretty fun, and you can see what they were trying to lay groundwork for in the first season. It's risen to Dollhouse-level, I'd say.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:39 AM on April 21, 2015


That's how I feel about it too, OnceUponATime - that whole first season was just a house of cards to smash. I watched the whole thing but it really plodded. "Aarrgg, get to the super crime!!" - Me, Watching AoS last year. Then year two starts with a Mockingbird v. Absorbing Man fight and I was much more onboard.

[SPOILER begins]: Also, I have to admire the nerve of building two years of primetime television around the revelation that your series lead has been Daisy "Quake" Johnson the whole time. Safe to say I didn't see that one coming at all. [end of SPOILERS]
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:19 AM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was really happy to see Crushee Creel. Then I got bored and stopped watching again.

I hear they might be making it more about Melinda May and less about boring-ass Skye and the other boring-ass characters , so maybe that might be more interesting?

I don't know, post-Agent Carter and especially post-Daredevil it's very hard to care.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on April 21, 2015


It's still not quite the show I wish it was but it has a pleasing twistiness to it now at least. Adding and keeping Mockingbird was a great call, considering her criminal underuse in the comics. Right at the point I might have wandered away this season, they added scenes of Edward James Olmos giving orders on a boat with dignified, reserved authority and these bastards know I'm powerless to resist that kinda thing.

A pivot to May would be pretty interesting - I wonder if last week's POV change will stick. Arg, I dunno - it always feels like AoS is just about to get amazing. Realtalk though: if someone told me: "hey, there's this comic where SHIELD is cracking in two and Mockingbird is probably gonna fight Deathlok pretty soon," I would read that comic.
posted by EatTheWeak at 12:07 PM on April 21, 2015


It's risen to Dollhouse-level, I'd say.

Everything about Dollhouse that wasn't Eliza Dushku was great. So it was half great and half oh god please make it stop or kill me now. Still, I'd rather watch a half-great show than rarely-anything-but-meh show.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:24 PM on April 21, 2015


Daredevil got renewed.
posted by sparkletone at 6:20 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Filed under "no brainer".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 PM on April 21, 2015






So glad to hear Cyclops is going to admit the truth.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 PM on April 22, 2015


Fuck off, Logan
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:49 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


He's a little miffed at the TV division for bringing Coulson back.
Wait, what?


Yeah, I was a little confused at that too.
Joss Whedon Bummed That Marvel Brought Agent Coulson Back From The Dead

I think he might be burnt out, a smidge.

One of the Original X-men Is Gay – and It Matters More than You Think

You'd think it may have come up before now, rumours aside.
Rumours which, several times, have been shot down, if I recall.
Although, but the same people behind One More Day, so who knows?

X-Men are no longer mine, and I really haven't recognised them since they went through the Siege Perilous in Australia that time, but this strikes me as change for controversy's sake at a time when Marvel is pushing buttons for reasons. I find it smacks of trying too hard, but it's not like I read the comic, or especially care.

I mean, I live in a world where Gambit has his own movie.
Gambit!
posted by Mezentian at 6:39 AM on April 24, 2015


The Iceman thing is so bizarre. Having a gay X-Man is great, but the particular way it came about is so very odd. It comes down to a telepath telling him that no "you're full gay, not bi" which sounds all sorts of awkard and there's the problem of Jean bounding around in his head and the whole rationale for Bobby being gay is "well, you've been unlucky with women, so..." Uh what? Bisexual sounds like makes much more sense for the character.

Then there's the fact that this Bobby is the younger version of the current Bobby, who hasn't expressed much interest in men, so...yeaaah. Though potentially interesting storywise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:53 AM on April 24, 2015


Having a gay X-Man is great

... Actually, where is Northstar these days?
posted by Mezentian at 6:57 AM on April 24, 2015




There's a great comment over on CSBG that suggests that one way to sort out this "retcon" is to have Xavier mind-swipe Bobby's sexuality, making him straight, and this more acceptable to the public.

It's so devilishly wonderful, and plays to the "Professor Xavier is a dick" meme.
posted by Mezentian at 6:54 PM on April 24, 2015


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