20 Years After the Oklahoma City Bombing...
April 20, 2015 1:41 AM Subscribe
...authorities have lost sight of domestic extremists and failed to prevent acts of terrorism, while the violence is metastasizing and the threat is growing. - Kansas City Star
Part 2: Inside the Kansas City Regional Terrorism Early Warning Interagency Analysis Center. That’s “fusion center” for short.
Part 3: A number of studies of Fusion Centers have found shoddy intelligence, poor communication and lack of focus on domestic extremism.
Part 4: The former police chief of West Memphis, Arkansas warns others about terrorist "sovereign citizens" responsible for his son's death. Video.
Part 5: The Las Vegas couple who killed two police officers and a good Samaritan last year had been on the radar of a nearby fusion center; they had previously gone to the site of the Cliven Bundy standoff where even the armed members of the “patriot movement” distrusted them and expelled them after a couple days.
Part 2: Inside the Kansas City Regional Terrorism Early Warning Interagency Analysis Center. That’s “fusion center” for short.
Part 3: A number of studies of Fusion Centers have found shoddy intelligence, poor communication and lack of focus on domestic extremism.
Part 4: The former police chief of West Memphis, Arkansas warns others about terrorist "sovereign citizens" responsible for his son's death. Video.
Part 5: The Las Vegas couple who killed two police officers and a good Samaritan last year had been on the radar of a nearby fusion center; they had previously gone to the site of the Cliven Bundy standoff where even the armed members of the “patriot movement” distrusted them and expelled them after a couple days.
Given how right-wing domestic terrorism intensified under Clinton, virtually vanished under Bush, and came roaring back under Obama, as far as I can tell, American right-wing domestic terrorism is what happens when Republicans don't get to have the White House.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:28 AM on April 20, 2015 [73 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:28 AM on April 20, 2015 [73 favorites]
Given that mainstream media outlets, particularly talk radio and television, are generally sympathetic to the bigoted, anti-government ideals of separatist and dominionist movements — carefully avoiding any open endorsement of their violence, while promoting it all the same — it's hard to expect the Fox News-style networks to report on extremism. When the media control the narrative, it's even harder to expect the authorities — the main consumer of what right-wing media sells — to take the threat seriously.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:30 AM on April 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:30 AM on April 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Everytime I see a right wing domestic terror case that should be by all measures deemed to be "terrorism" (e.g Jerad Miller) and the word never once used in all reporting on it, it's very strange given how freely the word is tossed around in instances of attacks/explosions even when there is no evidence whatsoever.
I feel like the authorities and the media have a big flow chart in their HQs to determine whether they can call something terrorism or not and at the end of it is a brown paper bag stapled to the wall to compare the suspect's picture with.
posted by Karaage at 4:49 AM on April 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
I feel like the authorities and the media have a big flow chart in their HQs to determine whether they can call something terrorism or not and at the end of it is a brown paper bag stapled to the wall to compare the suspect's picture with.
posted by Karaage at 4:49 AM on April 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
From the first link:
– You mean they have iPhones so they can keep up with their friends on Facebook while they play Minecraft?
"Uh, I can't answer that one."
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:53 AM on April 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
The report said San Diego’s fusion center had spent about $75,000 on 55 flat-screen TVs [....] When the subcommittee asked what the TVs were actually being used for, officials said “open source monitoring” — which they defined as “watching the news.”"Furthermore, the officers within the fusion center are issued mobile devices to monitor and approve communications while performing their task of resource extraction within a virtual reality development environment."
– You mean they have iPhones so they can keep up with their friends on Facebook while they play Minecraft?
"Uh, I can't answer that one."
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:53 AM on April 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Everytime I see a right wing domestic terror case that should be by all measures deemed to be "terrorism" (e.g Jerad Miller) and the word never once used in all reporting on it, it's very strange given how freely the word is tossed around in instances of attacks/explosions even when there is no evidence whatsoever.
It's not just right wing, it's pretty much any time the perpetrator is a white guy (with minor exceptions for ridiculously overcharging a few unlucky Occupy people). It's just not something we are prepared to see, much less carefully investigate, from whites, so it doesn't surprise me that the law enforcement response is inept and floundering.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 AM on April 20, 2015
It's not just right wing, it's pretty much any time the perpetrator is a white guy (with minor exceptions for ridiculously overcharging a few unlucky Occupy people). It's just not something we are prepared to see, much less carefully investigate, from whites, so it doesn't surprise me that the law enforcement response is inept and floundering.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 AM on April 20, 2015
Given how right-wing domestic terrorism intensified under Clinton, virtually vanished under Bush, and came roaring back under Obama, as far as I can tell, American right-wing domestic terrorism is what happens when Republicans don't get to have the White House.
Do you have a citation for this? I study terrorism, although not in the US, and in most places terrorism is unaffected by electoral outcomes (thats largely because a lot of terrorism is seperatist in nature and all elected officials are equally bad) but if its different in the US I would wonder if that phenomenon generalizes.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:04 AM on April 20, 2015
Do you have a citation for this? I study terrorism, although not in the US, and in most places terrorism is unaffected by electoral outcomes (thats largely because a lot of terrorism is seperatist in nature and all elected officials are equally bad) but if its different in the US I would wonder if that phenomenon generalizes.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:04 AM on April 20, 2015
Do you have a citation for this?
Pope Guilty is referring to acts of domestic terrorism in the US from Clinton onwards. If we start from 1865 (with the assassination of Lincoln), domestic terrorism in the US gets a lot more complex. However, what we do see is that left-wing acts of terror begin to sharply decline around 1970, while right-wing terrorism starts to gain momentum in the 1960s.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:11 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pope Guilty is referring to acts of domestic terrorism in the US from Clinton onwards. If we start from 1865 (with the assassination of Lincoln), domestic terrorism in the US gets a lot more complex. However, what we do see is that left-wing acts of terror begin to sharply decline around 1970, while right-wing terrorism starts to gain momentum in the 1960s.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:11 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes so is there any data that shows that right-wing terrorism increased under Clinton, declined under Bush, and increased under Obama?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on April 20, 2015
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on April 20, 2015
I would go to the link I posted and start from 1992. I haven't done an exact calculation but at first glance it seems that yes, during the Clinton years right-wing domestic terror ramped up, while the Bush years' domestic terror was primarily Beltway Snipers, but the Obama years have been a general hodge-podge of violence.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:19 AM on April 20, 2015
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:19 AM on April 20, 2015
But of course, correlation isn't causation, and I also think presidential elections have little to no impact on domestic terror in the US. Right-wing terrorism in the US, while particularly deadly, seems motivated by all kinds of factors that don't seem to take the White House into account, really, so much as entities like the UN, Bilderberg Group, and the "ZOG" acronym, which was more fashionable in the 80s.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:22 AM on April 20, 2015
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:22 AM on April 20, 2015
also for anyone interested the global terrorism database at the univeristy of marlyand is open-source and free to the public.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:30 AM on April 20, 2015
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:30 AM on April 20, 2015
I think if you look at how the GOP, in particular the NRA, has made a habit of screaming about how every Democrat wants to grab your guns, suddenly the connection between militia activity and Democratic Presidents becomes quite clear. The GOP includes as part of its political strategy maintaining their position of the armed, radical right. They are not the party of murdering government officials, but especially since the New Left wound down they are overwhelmingly the party for people who want to murder government officials. It is extremely impolitic to point this out, though between Ron Paul's longtime side career pandering to violent racists and the GOP's demands that the report on right-wing domestic terrorism be spiked, anybody who isn't determined not to see reality can simply open their eyes.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:00 AM on April 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:00 AM on April 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
I prefer to go by the metric of what the actual terrorists say are their reasons for doing what they do. The Aryan Nations, for example, has maintained that the White House is controlled by Israel regardless of who's in charge. McVeigh's motives in particular for the bombing were about revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge - which happened under Clinton and Bush Sr., respectively. Likewise Sovereign Citizens have a deep and abiding distrust in federal government, and seem to put no stock in the White House at all, no matter who's living there.
In other words, while I think there's a definite element of the GOP that panders to gun nuts with a penchant for conspiracy theories, far-right radicals - like their counterparts on the far left - see Democrats and Republicans as a part of the same oppressive machine. Which isn't to diminish the dogwhistle pandering the GOP is engaging in, but more to underline that far-right terror is actually more dangerous than a lot of people suspect.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:15 AM on April 20, 2015
In other words, while I think there's a definite element of the GOP that panders to gun nuts with a penchant for conspiracy theories, far-right radicals - like their counterparts on the far left - see Democrats and Republicans as a part of the same oppressive machine. Which isn't to diminish the dogwhistle pandering the GOP is engaging in, but more to underline that far-right terror is actually more dangerous than a lot of people suspect.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:15 AM on April 20, 2015
Given how right-wing domestic terrorism intensified under Clinton, virtually vanished under Bush, and came roaring back under Obama, as far as I can tell, American right-wing domestic terrorism is what happens when Republicans don't get to have the White House.
Do you have a citation for this? I study terrorism, although not in the US, and in most places terrorism is unaffected by electoral outcomes (thats largely because a lot of terrorism is seperatist in nature and all elected officials are equally bad) but if its different in the US I would wonder if that phenomenon generalizes.
The Southern Poverty Law Center has a chart of Patriot and Militia Groups, 1995-2011. The chart shows a steady decrease in patriot and militia groups under Clinton from 1995-2000, but the number was still higher than what existed from 2001 to 2008 under George W. Bush. Then, in 2009, the number of patriot & militia groups spiked upward again under the Obama administration, reaching a high of 1274 combine patriot & militia groups in 2011. Some of this uptick during Democratic administrations is driven by the belief that Democrats are going to institute mass gun confiscations. I'm not sure what caused the decline between 1995 and 2000, but increased law enforcement scrutiny after the Oklahoma City bombing might be a factor. Then again, the Republican recapture of Congress that would have begun in 1995 (after the 1994 elections) might also have been a factor.
posted by jonp72 at 7:16 AM on April 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Do you have a citation for this? I study terrorism, although not in the US, and in most places terrorism is unaffected by electoral outcomes (thats largely because a lot of terrorism is seperatist in nature and all elected officials are equally bad) but if its different in the US I would wonder if that phenomenon generalizes.
The Southern Poverty Law Center has a chart of Patriot and Militia Groups, 1995-2011. The chart shows a steady decrease in patriot and militia groups under Clinton from 1995-2000, but the number was still higher than what existed from 2001 to 2008 under George W. Bush. Then, in 2009, the number of patriot & militia groups spiked upward again under the Obama administration, reaching a high of 1274 combine patriot & militia groups in 2011. Some of this uptick during Democratic administrations is driven by the belief that Democrats are going to institute mass gun confiscations. I'm not sure what caused the decline between 1995 and 2000, but increased law enforcement scrutiny after the Oklahoma City bombing might be a factor. Then again, the Republican recapture of Congress that would have begun in 1995 (after the 1994 elections) might also have been a factor.
posted by jonp72 at 7:16 AM on April 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have a really weird memory of the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. I was an RA at a small college in rural Minnesota; that afternoon, I had to walk around one wing of my largish dorm to make sure all of the fire extinguishers were charged.
I came into one of the TV lounges and the TV was on; a woman I knew was doing a little dance and pumping her fists. I asked her what was up. She really happily said something like "somebody got a whole bunch of feds in Oklahoma City!"
That was a big learning moment for me. The woman in question - and I really wish I could remember her name - was an American Indian. She was usually really quiet and reserved, and also mellow and very funny. Thinking about why she in particular was acting that way right then ended up opening a lot of mental doors.
I wish I had a follow-up to the story; I wish I'd had the presence of mind to ask her about it again a week (or a year) after the bombing, to see if she still thought it was a good thing. I like to think she changed her mind after more details came to light, but that might just be hope and projection.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:17 AM on April 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
I came into one of the TV lounges and the TV was on; a woman I knew was doing a little dance and pumping her fists. I asked her what was up. She really happily said something like "somebody got a whole bunch of feds in Oklahoma City!"
That was a big learning moment for me. The woman in question - and I really wish I could remember her name - was an American Indian. She was usually really quiet and reserved, and also mellow and very funny. Thinking about why she in particular was acting that way right then ended up opening a lot of mental doors.
I wish I had a follow-up to the story; I wish I'd had the presence of mind to ask her about it again a week (or a year) after the bombing, to see if she still thought it was a good thing. I like to think she changed her mind after more details came to light, but that might just be hope and projection.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:17 AM on April 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
From the SPLC link:
[A] Pew Research Center study this January suggested that income inequality may be even more important. The survey found that some two-thirds of Americans believe that there are “strong conflicts” between rich and poor, about a 50% increase since a 2009 survey. That sensibility also was apparent in both the Tea Parties and the Occupy Wall Street movement.
And so it is with many extremist groups.
August Kreis, a longtime neo-Nazi who in January stepped down as leader of an Aryan Nations faction after being convicted of fraud related to his veteran’s benefits, told the Intelligence Report that it was all about income inequality.
“The worse the economy gets, the more the groups are going to grow,” he said. “White people are arming themselves — and black people, too. I believe eventually it’s going to come down to civil war. It’s going to be an economic war, the rich versus the poor. We’re being divided along economic lines.”
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:21 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
[A] Pew Research Center study this January suggested that income inequality may be even more important. The survey found that some two-thirds of Americans believe that there are “strong conflicts” between rich and poor, about a 50% increase since a 2009 survey. That sensibility also was apparent in both the Tea Parties and the Occupy Wall Street movement.
And so it is with many extremist groups.
August Kreis, a longtime neo-Nazi who in January stepped down as leader of an Aryan Nations faction after being convicted of fraud related to his veteran’s benefits, told the Intelligence Report that it was all about income inequality.
“The worse the economy gets, the more the groups are going to grow,” he said. “White people are arming themselves — and black people, too. I believe eventually it’s going to come down to civil war. It’s going to be an economic war, the rich versus the poor. We’re being divided along economic lines.”
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:21 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes so is there any data that shows that right-wing terrorism increased under Clinton, declined under Bush, and increased under Obama?
I think the Southern Poverty Law Center shows an increase in right-wing political mobilization under Clinton and Obama, but it's difficult to prove any increase in term is specifically caused by right-wing mobilization or by a countermobilization against a Democratic administration, because the overall number of incidents in one year might be very small.
posted by jonp72 at 7:28 AM on April 20, 2015
I think the Southern Poverty Law Center shows an increase in right-wing political mobilization under Clinton and Obama, but it's difficult to prove any increase in term is specifically caused by right-wing mobilization or by a countermobilization against a Democratic administration, because the overall number of incidents in one year might be very small.
posted by jonp72 at 7:28 AM on April 20, 2015
Part of it is who counts as a "terrorist." Do Cliven Bundy and his militia friends count as domestic terrorists, or as proud patriots resisting jackbooted government thugs? Intimidation and threats of violence against abortion providers and their patrons? A guy who chains himself to a tree to keep it from being cut down? The New Black Panthers hanging out at a polling place? Protesters in Ferguson, Missouri?
Who the President is is part of it -- because it helps define who will be prioritized for investigation. But the usual sources of rabble-rousing -- hard-right media -- happily characterize the left as Socialist God-Hating Commies Who Want To Destroy America daily no matter who's in the main chair.
The one good thing is that those who are sufficiently unstable to desire bloodshed are only occasionally stable enough to plan it and go through with it successfully.
posted by delfin at 7:29 AM on April 20, 2015
Who the President is is part of it -- because it helps define who will be prioritized for investigation. But the usual sources of rabble-rousing -- hard-right media -- happily characterize the left as Socialist God-Hating Commies Who Want To Destroy America daily no matter who's in the main chair.
The one good thing is that those who are sufficiently unstable to desire bloodshed are only occasionally stable enough to plan it and go through with it successfully.
posted by delfin at 7:29 AM on April 20, 2015
Part of it is who counts as a "terrorist." Do Cliven Bundy and his militia friends count as domestic terrorists, or as proud patriots resisting jackbooted government thugs? Intimidation and threats of violence against abortion providers and their patrons? A guy who chains himself to a tree to keep it from being cut down? The New Black Panthers hanging out at a polling place? Protesters in Ferguson, Missouri?
It doesn't seem to matter to the Feds one way or the other what the right-wing media calls different groups, but you do touch on a crucial point here, which is the public rhetoric. So long as we keep associating "terrorism" with brown people, which isn't reserved solely to right-wing media, public awareness of right wing domestic terror remains low. If we really want to fight the far-right, it's going to have to start by taking an honest, unsimplified look at who they are, what motivates them, and also yeah, applying the same term you would use for anyone else who is intent on killing innocent people in the name of a political or other ideological cause.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:46 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
It doesn't seem to matter to the Feds one way or the other what the right-wing media calls different groups, but you do touch on a crucial point here, which is the public rhetoric. So long as we keep associating "terrorism" with brown people, which isn't reserved solely to right-wing media, public awareness of right wing domestic terror remains low. If we really want to fight the far-right, it's going to have to start by taking an honest, unsimplified look at who they are, what motivates them, and also yeah, applying the same term you would use for anyone else who is intent on killing innocent people in the name of a political or other ideological cause.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:46 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Right wing extremists in the US have no financial or ideological support at home or abroad, no technical or foreign language facility, and can be (and are) infiltrated by law enforcement basically at will. In the very unlikely event that they ramped up to sustained impactful activity, they would be degraded and dismantled very quickly.
The only actual muscle that they might hook up with --- 1%ers and outside-the-wall auxiliaries of the AN prison gangs -- consider themselves "patriots." Doesn't mean they aren't scum, but does mean that they aren't going to be bombing US government targets.
What you should worry about is that the FBI decides that they want to start running on Turner Diaries losers the same playing-with-fire message-board stings they now run with hapless Muslim kids, with undercover agents tricking them into thinking they're arming a bomb or boarding a plane to join ISIS. One of those efforts is going to backfire real badly, I fear.
posted by MattD at 7:49 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only actual muscle that they might hook up with --- 1%ers and outside-the-wall auxiliaries of the AN prison gangs -- consider themselves "patriots." Doesn't mean they aren't scum, but does mean that they aren't going to be bombing US government targets.
What you should worry about is that the FBI decides that they want to start running on Turner Diaries losers the same playing-with-fire message-board stings they now run with hapless Muslim kids, with undercover agents tricking them into thinking they're arming a bomb or boarding a plane to join ISIS. One of those efforts is going to backfire real badly, I fear.
posted by MattD at 7:49 AM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I may be missing something, but I see no evidence for the claim that there has been a marked increase in actual incidents of right-wing domestic terror (as versus threats, of which I assume there have been many) in the years since Obama took office. This DHS report details 24 domestic violence incidents since 2010 from "sovereign citizen extremists" (the main focus of the Kansas City Star piece). The conclusion of the report is that "Barring any significant change in SCE ideology, a major event, or a charismatic leader that advocates for more assertive violence in support of SCEs’ perceived rights, I&A assesses the sporadic pattern and level of violence at homes, traffic stops, and government sites will continue through 2015." (Emphasis mine.) "Sporadic" hardly equates with a major or coordinated increase in episodes of terror-related violence.
58% of all domestic terror in the US between 1970 and 2012 occurred during the 1970s (Routledge History of Terrorism, 2015, citing the Global Terrorism Database). If you compare the actual incidence of domestic terrorism in the past six or seven years with almost any comparable period in the 1970s, it seems clear that (despite the media and government's obsession with screaming about it and legislating against it) the United States has historically and has continued to see declines in and far fewer incidents of domestic terrorism than almost any other part of the world, other than Canada and some Western European countries.
posted by blucevalo at 8:57 AM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
58% of all domestic terror in the US between 1970 and 2012 occurred during the 1970s (Routledge History of Terrorism, 2015, citing the Global Terrorism Database). If you compare the actual incidence of domestic terrorism in the past six or seven years with almost any comparable period in the 1970s, it seems clear that (despite the media and government's obsession with screaming about it and legislating against it) the United States has historically and has continued to see declines in and far fewer incidents of domestic terrorism than almost any other part of the world, other than Canada and some Western European countries.
posted by blucevalo at 8:57 AM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I may be missing something, but I see no evidence for the claim that there has been a marked increase in actual incidents of right-wing domestic terror (as versus threats, of which I assume there have been many) in the years since Obama took office.
I think the evidence points to greater extremist right-wing political mobilization during Obama's term in office, but that does not automatically prove that right-wing terrorism will increase. Certainly, terrorism is at a low level compared to what it was in the 1970s, even though domestic terrorism was not necessarily high on the agenda compared to other things people worried about in that decade.
posted by jonp72 at 9:07 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the evidence points to greater extremist right-wing political mobilization during Obama's term in office, but that does not automatically prove that right-wing terrorism will increase. Certainly, terrorism is at a low level compared to what it was in the 1970s, even though domestic terrorism was not necessarily high on the agenda compared to other things people worried about in that decade.
posted by jonp72 at 9:07 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes and those are two very different claims but are often conflated.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think one thing of note is that unlike the '90s, there doesn't seem to be any particularly large, well-organized networks of right-wing domestic terrorist groups. Sure they have elaborate internet communities, but are Sovereign Citizens anything on par with the various militia movements in their heyday? Racist acts may be on the rise, but white power movements seem to no longer be as significant as they were in the Clinton era, either.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:51 PM on April 20, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 1:51 PM on April 20, 2015
Pulling this out of my butt, but I think there's something to an idea that the internet has enabled those groups to diffuse themselves through the greater discussion and distinction of different schools of identity (and other) politics. JPF vs. PFJ (also)
posted by rhizome at 4:13 PM on April 20, 2015
posted by rhizome at 4:13 PM on April 20, 2015
The only actual muscle that they might hook up with --- 1%ers and outside-the-wall auxiliaries of the AN prison gangs -- consider themselves "patriots." Doesn't mean they aren't scum, but does mean that they aren't going to be bombing US government targets.
Government agents and facilities are almost certainly going to be among the primary targets of any right wing terrorism in the future. They have been in the past. That's one reason I'm not too overly scared, the government will act to protect itself from them. Another Oklahoma City Bombing type event is not an option.
These sorts of "patriots" are not the type of patriots who love our current government institutions, or even view them as legitimate at all.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:38 PM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Government agents and facilities are almost certainly going to be among the primary targets of any right wing terrorism in the future. They have been in the past. That's one reason I'm not too overly scared, the government will act to protect itself from them. Another Oklahoma City Bombing type event is not an option.
These sorts of "patriots" are not the type of patriots who love our current government institutions, or even view them as legitimate at all.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:38 PM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it's important to have in mind that many self-identified "patriots" of the far-right consider the federal government itself anti-American. It's not like an American flag on a building would be kryptonite to them.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:53 PM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:53 PM on April 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Drinky / Aya -- I agree that the classic form of right wing extremists don't like the federal government and might well want to take action against it.
What I am saying is that other than in a one-off isolated way, they don't have the capability to do it, because they are resourceless cranks, not an organized criminal or political movement of consequence.
The only people with serious muscle who adopt any portion of their ideology (at least nominal white supremacy) are white prison gangs ("AN" in my first post) and outlaw biker gangs (1%ers ditto). And, I as I said, those guys do think of themselves as patriots of a kind and very much regard the Armed Forces (for example) as legitimate.
posted by MattD at 5:46 PM on April 20, 2015
What I am saying is that other than in a one-off isolated way, they don't have the capability to do it, because they are resourceless cranks, not an organized criminal or political movement of consequence.
The only people with serious muscle who adopt any portion of their ideology (at least nominal white supremacy) are white prison gangs ("AN" in my first post) and outlaw biker gangs (1%ers ditto). And, I as I said, those guys do think of themselves as patriots of a kind and very much regard the Armed Forces (for example) as legitimate.
posted by MattD at 5:46 PM on April 20, 2015
Aryan Nations argue, "We…the representatives of the Aryan people…solemnly publish and declare that the Aryan people in America…ought to be, a free and independent nation…[and] are absolved from all allegiance to the United States of America, and that all political connection between them and the Federal government thereof, is and ought to be, totally dissolved"
I don't think they have the respect for the armed forces you think they do. They are separatists.
Agent: Osceola neo-Nazi biker gang talked about targeting Obama officials, Orange County Sheriff
Again, I am not arguing right wing terrorism is going to be a successful terrorist movement in the future, just don't rely on the patriotism of anti-government white supremacists to prevent it.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:00 PM on April 20, 2015
I don't think they have the respect for the armed forces you think they do. They are separatists.
Agent: Osceola neo-Nazi biker gang talked about targeting Obama officials, Orange County Sheriff
Again, I am not arguing right wing terrorism is going to be a successful terrorist movement in the future, just don't rely on the patriotism of anti-government white supremacists to prevent it.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:00 PM on April 20, 2015
I meant the White Aryan Brotherhood which is the massive prison gang, not Aryan Nations which is a frightening-slash-toothless fringe ideology group ... but interesting point about neo-Nazi biker gangs, although the main biker gangs don't tout Nazi affiliations / aspirations.
posted by MattD at 6:34 PM on April 20, 2015
posted by MattD at 6:34 PM on April 20, 2015
Yeah I think we are on the same page for the most part. Though, I'm not really sure why you think they would need to rely on muscle from prison gangs when basically any white supremacist in the country is legally armed to the teeth with weapons fully capable of amounting to a devastating terrorist attack. It's not even that hard to plan once you have the recruits. Guys with guns show up at a target and start shooting.
But yeah, there is no American Al Qaeda full of leaders willing and able to competently do the recruitment and organizing. If such a group pops up though, they would be able to find recruits. I will be mighty pissed off if the government ever allows that to occur considering the amount of power they have been granted to fight these sorts of threats.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:48 PM on April 20, 2015
But yeah, there is no American Al Qaeda full of leaders willing and able to competently do the recruitment and organizing. If such a group pops up though, they would be able to find recruits. I will be mighty pissed off if the government ever allows that to occur considering the amount of power they have been granted to fight these sorts of threats.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:48 PM on April 20, 2015
The lead article says that domestic terrorism in the USA has killed fifty people since 2001, which is a bit over three per year. According to Senator Coburn, the fusion centers haven't actually prevented any deaths.
There's no real analysis of the cost of the fusion centers, but
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:14 PM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's no real analysis of the cost of the fusion centers, but
The agency estimated that the total amount of federal dollars spent on fusion center efforts from 2003 to 2010 ranged from $289 million to $1.4 billion.Let's take the lower bound and call it $36 million per year. So the potential lives saved seem to be valued at something north of $12,000,000 each - perhaps very much more than that. In contrast, there were about thirty-two thousand car deaths last year. If those deaths were valued at the same level, the USA would be spending $384,000,000,000 on preventing them - each year. That's more than 2% of its GDP; more than $1,000 for every person in the USA! And I think it's unarguable that many lives would be saved even with a tiny fraction of that. Even the amount presently spent on fusion centers would pay for some pedestrian crossings or safety islands. It's not much, across the USA, but it would do some good. More than the fusion centers do, anyway.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:14 PM on April 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
From a year ago: Looking clearly at right-wing terrorism about an earlier report pushed into obscurity.
posted by adamvasco at 8:09 AM on April 21, 2015
posted by adamvasco at 8:09 AM on April 21, 2015
First: It's terrific to read a news article that isn't machine written. Thanks for this.
Second: as long as we insist that “sharing information” is the problem we’re never going to get anywhere.
Multijurisdictional actions are multijurisdictional for a reason. Either they’re separated so as to not to get to dangerous, such as the (albeit eroding) U.S. insistence on limiting use of the military to act as domestic law enforcement, or they’re separate for purposes of oversight.
“Sharing information” sounds to me like newspeak for releasing limitations on authority in order to muddy responsibility. Maybe we’ll see drones dropping in our backyards because we dumped a lot of the insurrection act in ’08.
In any case, it’s the same tune over and over.
I’ve spoken highly of GSG9 and KSK in Germany before as a model (they’ve been proven in the Balkins, Afghanistan, etc) and have police powers.
However, as time has gone on they’ve suffered accountability issues. We can’t create a special unit or adopt a certain form over substance to address domestic terrorism until we adopt accountability standards.
Even for the flow of information. Particularly in context, which information gets what priority?
Plenty easy to share info freely and still not adopt a useful domestic CT program because someone in a higher pay grade thinks “X” information is higher priority.
So starting from the tool end, adopting commitment and accountability commensurate with our expectations in execution, that is, law enforcement (‘cos CT damn well better be a law enforcement problem, especially domestically, or we are right and screwed) would be the first step. And getting agency members who accept being held to those standards and oversight.
But right now most of the rhetoric seems like it’s geared to avoid civil liability.
Regardless of the problem, or the scale of the problem, of domestic terrorism itself.
FTA: “So unless it happens in your backyard, the average American doesn’t quite realize how much of this is happening.”
Yea it’s a lot of little stuff tho too. American Sovereign Citizen doesn’t like taxes so he chucks a Molotov through a school window at 3 am. Mostly stuff like that.
I mean, yea, it’s deplorable that a guy would set a house on fire so he could shoot first responders, but he only killed a one guy. One big part about combating terrorism is to not, y’know, blasting it all over the media helping broadcast the groups message.
If those deaths were valued at the same level, the USA would be spending $384,000,000,000 on preventing them - each year.
This.
I was on a plane a bit ago with some regular folks and we had some really rough turbulence. Rough enough for me to increase the volume on my headphones when someone started yelling. But I took them off because he wouldn’t stop. Now here’s a guy with a wife and kid sitting next to him yelling about how they’re all going to die.
I get fear. I get he lost control. But we helped calm him down and explained to him that it doesn’t help anyone to yell about it and get people panicking. Even if – especially if – you’re going to die. He calmed down (they have drugs for this too) and I got a little tenderized getting back to my seat but we all landed ok. So, what was the point there either of yelling if we were gonna make it?
If you can do something about it, if you’re a pilot or Superman, great, if not, well, take the hit and let other people get on with their lives.
there is no American Al Qaeda full of leaders willing and able to competently do the recruitment and organizing.
Main difference there: most international groups have an ideology and use criminal acts for funding. Most domestic groups use ideology to recruit cadre and cover for criminal acts.
Mostly about money. But American Nazis had the pedophile thing. Many organizations struggle with the pressures of orthodoxy vs. finance and corruption. Contrast G. Lincoln Rockwell with Joschka Fischer or Frank Collin. Or the Church of Satan and Michael Aquino's split (Aquino was DIA psych warfare, so was the molestation thing real in the first place? *shrug*).
Shit gets weird when people under psychological pressure to begin with get some power. And there's religion. Then money gets involved.
It's an ancient thing. The assassins. The Thugee.
One of the things Bruce Hoffman talks about, particularly with OKC, is this quasi religious imperative. 9/11, the '98 African attack on U.S. embassies, the Tokyo subway attacks, all have a " 'sorta' religious" thing going on. Specifically 'sorta' religious.
As late as '68 this was not so. But that's always been the trend. Separatist, ideological and ethnic terrorism was the prime motivator only for a short time, historically speaking. Obviously colonialism had a lot to do with that.
In the U.S. it's hard to find other motivation because of the lack of oppression (relatively. I mean, 200-odd years ago we had slaves).
Contrast Waco with the Freemen standoff. Patience and negotiation win.
So the mechanisms by which exploitative groups recruit disaffected and alienated individuals in the U.S. have to be different. And, in most cases, have to harken to the illusory past to find legitimacy (that is, to oppose the current era of oppression which prevents them from race supremacy or sedition). Which brings them firmly into the U.S. political right wing.
But they’re forced to evolve and solicit diverse constituencies: tax resisters, anti-abortion, etc., usually ones under pressure, but mostly with a religious bias, also, for the sake of legitimacy.
The right wing too adopted religion as one basis to claim legitimacy. And as resisting immigration becomes a thing, so it goes with those other elements.
“Colonel Kratos.” *chuckle*
One prelude to OKC was the ASM looking to blow up a federal building in L.A., some JDL offices, synagogues, the IRS office and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
So yeah, façade patriotism dependent on a videogame warrior ethos predicated on an illusory past and an ego centered para-religious interpretation. Born to lose. But useful idiots always are. And they can do a lot of damage. We just need to make sure we don't damage ourselves more in the reaction.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Second: as long as we insist that “sharing information” is the problem we’re never going to get anywhere.
Multijurisdictional actions are multijurisdictional for a reason. Either they’re separated so as to not to get to dangerous, such as the (albeit eroding) U.S. insistence on limiting use of the military to act as domestic law enforcement, or they’re separate for purposes of oversight.
“Sharing information” sounds to me like newspeak for releasing limitations on authority in order to muddy responsibility. Maybe we’ll see drones dropping in our backyards because we dumped a lot of the insurrection act in ’08.
In any case, it’s the same tune over and over.
I’ve spoken highly of GSG9 and KSK in Germany before as a model (they’ve been proven in the Balkins, Afghanistan, etc) and have police powers.
However, as time has gone on they’ve suffered accountability issues. We can’t create a special unit or adopt a certain form over substance to address domestic terrorism until we adopt accountability standards.
Even for the flow of information. Particularly in context, which information gets what priority?
Plenty easy to share info freely and still not adopt a useful domestic CT program because someone in a higher pay grade thinks “X” information is higher priority.
So starting from the tool end, adopting commitment and accountability commensurate with our expectations in execution, that is, law enforcement (‘cos CT damn well better be a law enforcement problem, especially domestically, or we are right and screwed) would be the first step. And getting agency members who accept being held to those standards and oversight.
But right now most of the rhetoric seems like it’s geared to avoid civil liability.
Regardless of the problem, or the scale of the problem, of domestic terrorism itself.
FTA: “So unless it happens in your backyard, the average American doesn’t quite realize how much of this is happening.”
Yea it’s a lot of little stuff tho too. American Sovereign Citizen doesn’t like taxes so he chucks a Molotov through a school window at 3 am. Mostly stuff like that.
I mean, yea, it’s deplorable that a guy would set a house on fire so he could shoot first responders, but he only killed a one guy. One big part about combating terrorism is to not, y’know, blasting it all over the media helping broadcast the groups message.
If those deaths were valued at the same level, the USA would be spending $384,000,000,000 on preventing them - each year.
This.
I was on a plane a bit ago with some regular folks and we had some really rough turbulence. Rough enough for me to increase the volume on my headphones when someone started yelling. But I took them off because he wouldn’t stop. Now here’s a guy with a wife and kid sitting next to him yelling about how they’re all going to die.
I get fear. I get he lost control. But we helped calm him down and explained to him that it doesn’t help anyone to yell about it and get people panicking. Even if – especially if – you’re going to die. He calmed down (they have drugs for this too) and I got a little tenderized getting back to my seat but we all landed ok. So, what was the point there either of yelling if we were gonna make it?
If you can do something about it, if you’re a pilot or Superman, great, if not, well, take the hit and let other people get on with their lives.
there is no American Al Qaeda full of leaders willing and able to competently do the recruitment and organizing.
Main difference there: most international groups have an ideology and use criminal acts for funding. Most domestic groups use ideology to recruit cadre and cover for criminal acts.
Mostly about money. But American Nazis had the pedophile thing. Many organizations struggle with the pressures of orthodoxy vs. finance and corruption. Contrast G. Lincoln Rockwell with Joschka Fischer or Frank Collin. Or the Church of Satan and Michael Aquino's split (Aquino was DIA psych warfare, so was the molestation thing real in the first place? *shrug*).
Shit gets weird when people under psychological pressure to begin with get some power. And there's religion. Then money gets involved.
It's an ancient thing. The assassins. The Thugee.
One of the things Bruce Hoffman talks about, particularly with OKC, is this quasi religious imperative. 9/11, the '98 African attack on U.S. embassies, the Tokyo subway attacks, all have a " 'sorta' religious" thing going on. Specifically 'sorta' religious.
As late as '68 this was not so. But that's always been the trend. Separatist, ideological and ethnic terrorism was the prime motivator only for a short time, historically speaking. Obviously colonialism had a lot to do with that.
In the U.S. it's hard to find other motivation because of the lack of oppression (relatively. I mean, 200-odd years ago we had slaves).
Contrast Waco with the Freemen standoff. Patience and negotiation win.
So the mechanisms by which exploitative groups recruit disaffected and alienated individuals in the U.S. have to be different. And, in most cases, have to harken to the illusory past to find legitimacy (that is, to oppose the current era of oppression which prevents them from race supremacy or sedition). Which brings them firmly into the U.S. political right wing.
But they’re forced to evolve and solicit diverse constituencies: tax resisters, anti-abortion, etc., usually ones under pressure, but mostly with a religious bias, also, for the sake of legitimacy.
The right wing too adopted religion as one basis to claim legitimacy. And as resisting immigration becomes a thing, so it goes with those other elements.
“Colonel Kratos.” *chuckle*
One prelude to OKC was the ASM looking to blow up a federal building in L.A., some JDL offices, synagogues, the IRS office and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
So yeah, façade patriotism dependent on a videogame warrior ethos predicated on an illusory past and an ego centered para-religious interpretation. Born to lose. But useful idiots always are. And they can do a lot of damage. We just need to make sure we don't damage ourselves more in the reaction.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
So's not to seem too pedantic about terrorism, I do think Pope Guilty's larger point is sound. The Bundy Stand-Off was nuts, and it's put some wind in the sails of all kinds of heavily armed Posse Comitatus types in bands that have been across the country, in some cases for decades. That umbrella shades wide, courting law enforcement, active military and veterans. However small and scattered the cells are, that's still some scary shit to consider.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:53 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:53 PM on April 21, 2015
CIA Killed Three Americans, Italian Hostage in Drone Strikes
posted by jeffburdges at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2015
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posted by still bill at 2:12 AM on April 20, 2015 [2 favorites]