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April 22, 2015 3:23 PM Subscribe
Chris Rock on HBO's Real Sports explaining why Black People Do Not Watch Baseball, and Why It Matters
If Craig Calcterra has to admit Rock makes some good points, then he has some good points. Craig's trademark is mocking death of baseball essays.
One factor I wondered about that whole time was whether Latino fans are taking up baseball. There might not be as many black players, but there are tons from Latin America. It's a different shift than the demographics Rock is looking at.
But the whiteness of baseball can be seen in Philly. Chase Utley, who's white (and just had a hit) has remained popular through his decline while Ryan Howard, who's black, has been widely derided. Of course, Howard does have the worst contract in baseball, but he's reall fallen from hero status in a way Utley hasn't.
posted by graymouser at 4:23 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
One factor I wondered about that whole time was whether Latino fans are taking up baseball. There might not be as many black players, but there are tons from Latin America. It's a different shift than the demographics Rock is looking at.
But the whiteness of baseball can be seen in Philly. Chase Utley, who's white (and just had a hit) has remained popular through his decline while Ryan Howard, who's black, has been widely derided. Of course, Howard does have the worst contract in baseball, but he's reall fallen from hero status in a way Utley hasn't.
posted by graymouser at 4:23 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, I agree with that, graymouser. The situation is a lot more nuanced than Chris Rock thinks it is.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:27 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:27 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is good. Viewership of the WS is definitely down but it looks like attendance has held approx. steady over the last 15 years, at a plateau that's higher than at any time prior. I'm curious, as graymouser is, what the demographics of fandom look like these days. What's going on, baseball?
I haven't seen this line played out before. Any recommended reading on the topic?
posted by wemayfreeze at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2015
I haven't seen this line played out before. Any recommended reading on the topic?
posted by wemayfreeze at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2015
Man, sometimes I think that esports is basically just traditional sports, but happening at 1000x the speed. If you're a starcraft 2 fan, your favorite places to go talk about starcraft are all full of people saying "holy shit, no one is watching our game any more. no one plays it. it's not cool any more. people only like League of Legends. Our game is dead." That's after a whopping 4 years.
So listening to Chris Rock just now talk about how baseball needs to be hip and cool or IT'S FUCKING DEAD OH SHIT IT'S DEAD BE TERRIFIED... it's really familiar sounding.
The difference, of course, is the social aspect. Rock is making some really salient points about the conservative traditionalism surrounding baseball that I hadn't heard before, and it's convincing.
But as with Starcraft, I have to wonder: What if everything you're saying is true BUT there's no fixing that? What if the truth is that the game has to be smaller and accept its fate?
Because you can talk (as Rock does) about football being hipper and how the endzone dances are awesome and it's silly that baseball doesn't allow people to toss bats when they hit well so obviously people are watching football instead. You totally can, and you're not wrong. But did you know that football is also freaking the fuck out and its supporters are saying it's the end of the world? It's true. Here's Radiolab talking about it extensively. And this is among fans of a game whose championship is the single most watched night of television of every year for the past million years. They're losing their proverbial shit about the most popular sport in the world breathing its last breaths.
But maybe sports are just settling. Maybe there comes a point where you just can't fucking expect every single person to watch it any more, because we have a thousand other ways to be entertained and that's not a bad thing. As someone who has never gotten especially into sports, I remember there was a point where I finally understood on an intellectual level what I had never understood emotionally: Sports are this expression of the maximum a body can perform. They're marvelous for that. To watch a professional athlete is to see the human body, conditioned to be the ultimate at a given task, matched against another perfectly conditioned body. There's this marvelous moment where a fan realizes that the major advantages a person can have physically over an opponent are nullified because all the competitors are at their peak. That the contest comes down to tiny degrees in reflex, or strategy, or some odd moment of brilliance or a tiny mistake. That the tension is in the tiny details on a field or court where the major benefits of athleticism are all maxed out. And that's beautiful.
But we have other ways to see that now. So maybe now we're just not that into watching people get hospitalized, or encouraging our kids to go get concussed. And maybe, as Rock notes, the conservative old-timey rose-tinted view of history isn't that appetizing any more.
So what? It's ok if these sports are less than literally universally adored now. Maybe the best players make less than 10 million a year now. It's ok. We have so many other things to get invested in, that dudes being physically awesome can take its place with the rest of all human endeavor and be valued monetarily at equal to or less than its actual worth.
It's ok. It's really really ok. Promise. If any pro athletes out there want to know some good neighborhoods that are still affordable in Brooklyn or Oakland, I'll help them out. It can take some getting used to, but I assure you it's possible, guys.
posted by shmegegge at 4:51 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
So listening to Chris Rock just now talk about how baseball needs to be hip and cool or IT'S FUCKING DEAD OH SHIT IT'S DEAD BE TERRIFIED... it's really familiar sounding.
The difference, of course, is the social aspect. Rock is making some really salient points about the conservative traditionalism surrounding baseball that I hadn't heard before, and it's convincing.
But as with Starcraft, I have to wonder: What if everything you're saying is true BUT there's no fixing that? What if the truth is that the game has to be smaller and accept its fate?
Because you can talk (as Rock does) about football being hipper and how the endzone dances are awesome and it's silly that baseball doesn't allow people to toss bats when they hit well so obviously people are watching football instead. You totally can, and you're not wrong. But did you know that football is also freaking the fuck out and its supporters are saying it's the end of the world? It's true. Here's Radiolab talking about it extensively. And this is among fans of a game whose championship is the single most watched night of television of every year for the past million years. They're losing their proverbial shit about the most popular sport in the world breathing its last breaths.
But maybe sports are just settling. Maybe there comes a point where you just can't fucking expect every single person to watch it any more, because we have a thousand other ways to be entertained and that's not a bad thing. As someone who has never gotten especially into sports, I remember there was a point where I finally understood on an intellectual level what I had never understood emotionally: Sports are this expression of the maximum a body can perform. They're marvelous for that. To watch a professional athlete is to see the human body, conditioned to be the ultimate at a given task, matched against another perfectly conditioned body. There's this marvelous moment where a fan realizes that the major advantages a person can have physically over an opponent are nullified because all the competitors are at their peak. That the contest comes down to tiny degrees in reflex, or strategy, or some odd moment of brilliance or a tiny mistake. That the tension is in the tiny details on a field or court where the major benefits of athleticism are all maxed out. And that's beautiful.
But we have other ways to see that now. So maybe now we're just not that into watching people get hospitalized, or encouraging our kids to go get concussed. And maybe, as Rock notes, the conservative old-timey rose-tinted view of history isn't that appetizing any more.
So what? It's ok if these sports are less than literally universally adored now. Maybe the best players make less than 10 million a year now. It's ok. We have so many other things to get invested in, that dudes being physically awesome can take its place with the rest of all human endeavor and be valued monetarily at equal to or less than its actual worth.
It's ok. It's really really ok. Promise. If any pro athletes out there want to know some good neighborhoods that are still affordable in Brooklyn or Oakland, I'll help them out. It can take some getting used to, but I assure you it's possible, guys.
posted by shmegegge at 4:51 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
But the whiteness of baseball can be seen in Philly. Chase Utley, who's white (and just had a hit) has remained popular through his decline while Ryan Howard, who's black, has been widely derided. Of course, Howard does have the worst contract in baseball, but he's reall fallen from hero status in a way Utley hasn't.
Let's play it out a little further. Utley and Howard have both struggled with injuries over the last few years; Utley's knees are problematic, while Howard famously ripped an Achilles to end a season and had a knee injury take out a big chunk of another. Why does Utley get more of a free pass? Partly because Utley's public personality is just what Philadelphia loves (a feisty, scrappy guy) and Howard isn't. Partly because Utley is a more consistent hitter (less raw home run pop, but solid average and doubles, more patience at the plate) and Howard strikes out at a ridiculous rate (very vulnerable to chasing low offspeed stuff, something glaring that he's never really been able to improve). Partly because Philadelphia HATES overpaying for anything, and Howard's production dropping significantly coincides with his hefty contract and the Phillies' fall from contention to sub-mediocrity and makes him a handy scapegoat.
Is it also partly because Howard is black and Utley is white? Probably. But, as said above... there are nuances.
posted by delfin at 5:10 PM on April 22, 2015
Let's play it out a little further. Utley and Howard have both struggled with injuries over the last few years; Utley's knees are problematic, while Howard famously ripped an Achilles to end a season and had a knee injury take out a big chunk of another. Why does Utley get more of a free pass? Partly because Utley's public personality is just what Philadelphia loves (a feisty, scrappy guy) and Howard isn't. Partly because Utley is a more consistent hitter (less raw home run pop, but solid average and doubles, more patience at the plate) and Howard strikes out at a ridiculous rate (very vulnerable to chasing low offspeed stuff, something glaring that he's never really been able to improve). Partly because Philadelphia HATES overpaying for anything, and Howard's production dropping significantly coincides with his hefty contract and the Phillies' fall from contention to sub-mediocrity and makes him a handy scapegoat.
Is it also partly because Howard is black and Utley is white? Probably. But, as said above... there are nuances.
posted by delfin at 5:10 PM on April 22, 2015
Fry: I don't get it. Is blernsball exactly the same as baseball?
Farnsworth: Baseball?? God forbid!
Leela: Face it Fry. Baseball was as boring as mom and apple pie. That's why they jazzed it up.
Fry: Boring? Baseball wasn't...! Hmm, so they finally jazzed it up?
posted by Davenhill at 5:53 PM on April 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Farnsworth: Baseball?? God forbid!
Leela: Face it Fry. Baseball was as boring as mom and apple pie. That's why they jazzed it up.
Fry: Boring? Baseball wasn't...! Hmm, so they finally jazzed it up?
posted by Davenhill at 5:53 PM on April 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is it also partly because Howard is black and Utley is white? Probably. But, as said above... there are nuances.
There are fewer nuances between Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins. Rollins has been more successful than Utley, and he has faced less of a decline as he aged, but the criticism lobbed his way was usually, "lazy" or "couldn't be a leader." Rollins was never as beloved as Saint Utley, and I think the reasons align with what Rock brings up in the last half of his clip, about playing the game the "right" (white) way. Jimmy has also been invested in bringing more black players into baseball.
Baseball is getting better acknowledging its biases -- see the reaction and counter-reaction to Yasiel Puig's media narrative.
posted by gladly at 6:24 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are fewer nuances between Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins. Rollins has been more successful than Utley, and he has faced less of a decline as he aged, but the criticism lobbed his way was usually, "lazy" or "couldn't be a leader." Rollins was never as beloved as Saint Utley, and I think the reasons align with what Rock brings up in the last half of his clip, about playing the game the "right" (white) way. Jimmy has also been invested in bringing more black players into baseball.
Baseball is getting better acknowledging its biases -- see the reaction and counter-reaction to Yasiel Puig's media narrative.
posted by gladly at 6:24 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
This video is blocked in my country.
Does he mention the strikeout signs? Because those sure can't be helping. Pick any other letter, people!
posted by Sys Rq at 6:31 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does he mention the strikeout signs? Because those sure can't be helping. Pick any other letter, people!
posted by Sys Rq at 6:31 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does he mention the strikeout signs? Because those sure can't be helping. Pick any other letter, people!
To be fair, they almost always turn every 3rd K backwards.
posted by COD at 6:35 PM on April 22, 2015
To be fair, they almost always turn every 3rd K backwards.
posted by COD at 6:35 PM on April 22, 2015
The backwards 'K' denotes a caught-looking strikeout. I haven't seen backwards K's for the sake of not evoking the Klan, though I think I'd support it!
posted by wemayfreeze at 7:04 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 7:04 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm still betting on a comeback for chariot racing.
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
So what? It's ok if these sports are less than literally universally adored now. Maybe the best players make less than 10 million a year now. It's ok.
If you're a fan, sure; if you're an owner, though, downticks are terrifying. Have you seen what's happened to Jai Alai? A whole sport that's basically just... gone.
posted by mhoye at 7:45 PM on April 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you're a fan, sure; if you're an owner, though, downticks are terrifying. Have you seen what's happened to Jai Alai? A whole sport that's basically just... gone.
posted by mhoye at 7:45 PM on April 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
The backwards K on a scorecard means caught looking, but I've definitely heard of people turning around the last one regardless to avoid the imagery.
posted by vogon_poet at 8:35 PM on April 22, 2015
posted by vogon_poet at 8:35 PM on April 22, 2015
Rollins got a reputation for being lazy because the manager called him out for not running out grounders, not for being black. He did not have that reputation before that incident.
Maybe black players are more vulnerable to that accusation though. Donovan McNabb suddenly became "lazy" or "stupid" once he arrived in that shitstain of a football organization in DC and I'm pretty sure that in reality he was the same hard working great professional he always was in Philly during his time there.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:36 PM on April 22, 2015
Maybe black players are more vulnerable to that accusation though. Donovan McNabb suddenly became "lazy" or "stupid" once he arrived in that shitstain of a football organization in DC and I'm pretty sure that in reality he was the same hard working great professional he always was in Philly during his time there.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:36 PM on April 22, 2015
“Baseball's Lack Of Black Players Reflects Flawed U.S. Youth Development System,” Bob Cook, Forbes, 10 April 2013
“Baseball Lets Black Boys Slip Away From Game,” Justice B. Hill, BET, 17 April 2013
“Braves’ move is the latest blow to blacks in baseball,” Goldie Taylor, The Grio, 18 November 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 8:41 PM on April 22, 2015
“Baseball Lets Black Boys Slip Away From Game,” Justice B. Hill, BET, 17 April 2013
“Braves’ move is the latest blow to blacks in baseball,” Goldie Taylor, The Grio, 18 November 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 8:41 PM on April 22, 2015
I only know the Mets via Chris Claremont.
And I was shocked to discover they exist.
posted by Mezentian at 5:22 AM on April 23, 2015
And I was shocked to discover they exist.
posted by Mezentian at 5:22 AM on April 23, 2015
I'm white, but I completely agree with Rock's assertion that an obsession with traditionalism and the "right way" has made baseball completely boring, especially with the prices you have at major league ball parks these days. It's way more fun to go to a minor league ball game these days, where the spirit of wacky mascots and crazy stunts is still alive. I'm lucky enough to live close enough to go to St. Paul Saints games (the minor league team owned by Bill Murray). They not only pull completely WTF stunts like having a Japanese guy in gold lame leading a crowd karaoke of the O'Jay's "Love Train," but if you're lucky, you might also get to have Bill Murray tear up your ticket. Find me a major league ballpark that's anywhere near as fun at minor league prices!
posted by jonp72 at 7:17 AM on April 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 7:17 AM on April 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Amen to minor league baseball. I don't follow sports at all, but a buddy of mine has season tickets to the Dayton Dragons, and I go with him at least a couple of times per year. They do an excellent job of keeping things moving between innings, all of the seats are nice and close to the field, and the ticket prices are very reasonable. It's single-A level ball, and the games tend to be one-sided blowouts rather than close matchups, but it's excellent spring/summer entertainment all the same.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:00 AM on April 23, 2015
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:00 AM on April 23, 2015
(Although back to Rock's point, I do notice that the overwhelming majority of people in the stands for the Dragons are white, but that might be because Dayton is about 85% white.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:03 AM on April 23, 2015
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:03 AM on April 23, 2015
> Rollins has been more successful than Utley, and he has faced less of a decline as he aged, but the criticism lobbed his way was usually, "lazy" or "couldn't be a leader." Rollins was never as beloved as Saint Utley
I'm not denying that Utley is very, very beloved, but I didn't see Rollins losing popularity the way Ryan Howard did. Rollins is pretty freaking beloved. The guys who call into talk radio to prattle on about their opinions are not representative of all the fans.
posted by desuetude at 9:03 AM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not denying that Utley is very, very beloved, but I didn't see Rollins losing popularity the way Ryan Howard did. Rollins is pretty freaking beloved. The guys who call into talk radio to prattle on about their opinions are not representative of all the fans.
posted by desuetude at 9:03 AM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is interesting to me as a Pirates fan, as maybe one of our six most interesting players is white (Neil Walker) and he's *from* Pittsburgh, so it's understandable he's a fan favorite. McCutchen and Josh Harrison are very, very popular.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:33 PM on April 23, 2015
posted by Chrysostom at 12:33 PM on April 23, 2015
Have you seen what's happened to Jai Alai?
I hadn't seen that. Jesus.
posted by shmegegge at 12:50 PM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hadn't seen that. Jesus.
posted by shmegegge at 12:50 PM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's not an audience; that's a tea party.
Ha ha. The guy throwing at Puig's head was not that funny, though.
posted by bukvich at 2:54 PM on April 23, 2015
Ha ha. The guy throwing at Puig's head was not that funny, though.
posted by bukvich at 2:54 PM on April 23, 2015
I used to live in Austin, and I loved going to the Dell Diamond to see the Round Rock Express.
While I do love major league baseball, it is a bit pompous, although a lot of the things that Rock gripes about aren't as prevalent with my team (Nationals) as it is with some of the others. I attend at least 40 games a year and the Nats are pretty good about keeping it fun.
But yeah, triple-A ball is way more fun in my book. It's more accessible.
posted by Thistledown at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2015
While I do love major league baseball, it is a bit pompous, although a lot of the things that Rock gripes about aren't as prevalent with my team (Nationals) as it is with some of the others. I attend at least 40 games a year and the Nats are pretty good about keeping it fun.
But yeah, triple-A ball is way more fun in my book. It's more accessible.
posted by Thistledown at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2015
Maybe black players are more vulnerable to that accusation though.
"Victims of", not "vulnerable to", I'd say. The sport's undercurrent of casual racism was one of Rock's points.
posted by mhoye at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2015
"Victims of", not "vulnerable to", I'd say. The sport's undercurrent of casual racism was one of Rock's points.
posted by mhoye at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2015
I’m all for more minor-league type goofiness and bat-flipping, but Rock’s solutions seem to verge on Poochifying baseball. Can we please not turn it into an X-Games version of itself? I don’t want disco lights and cheerleaders at a ballgame. I like the organ music. I like the measured pace. Let the old fogies keep something besides golf.
Black fandom has decreased roughly in line with black playerdom, which makes sense, but why are there fewer black players now? Rock doesn’t say.
posted by El Mariachi at 11:53 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Black fandom has decreased roughly in line with black playerdom, which makes sense, but why are there fewer black players now? Rock doesn’t say.
posted by El Mariachi at 11:53 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by phaedon at 3:44 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]