Pink Flamingos, Palm Trees, and Class Warfare
April 24, 2015 3:22 AM Subscribe
In light of the Lilly Pulitzer for Target frenzy, The Atlantic asks, "Why do people hate Lilly Pulitzer?" and postulates some less-than-peppy, preppy, charming answers.
"The brand, in its collaboration with Target, provoked ire—proving that, in the right circumstances, even sundresses can be part of the culture wars."
"The brand, in its collaboration with Target, provoked ire—proving that, in the right circumstances, even sundresses can be part of the culture wars."
Before reading the article, I will say:
-because lime green and hot pink florals overlaid with lace is obviously tacky as fuck
-because the brand reminds me of the peppy rich girls I went to school with from third grade on, the ones with six bedroom houses and pools who I knew never to invite over lest they realize how poor I was and stop associating with me
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:34 AM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
-because lime green and hot pink florals overlaid with lace is obviously tacky as fuck
-because the brand reminds me of the peppy rich girls I went to school with from third grade on, the ones with six bedroom houses and pools who I knew never to invite over lest they realize how poor I was and stop associating with me
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:34 AM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
Read it. So, basically, yep
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Resortwear". I just rolled my eyes so hard that I think I might have injured myself.
posted by double block and bleed at 3:40 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by double block and bleed at 3:40 AM on April 24, 2015
Eh, the 'resort' thing is just fashion designer speak for 'casual summer clothes' as opposed to 'fancy summer clothes,' I think. It's not just a LP thing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:42 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:42 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
From the article: "Pulitzer's clothes are, in this sense, the worst kind of basic. They promise class and community and the relief of conformity. They are marketed to people of privilege. Worst of all, though, they suggest that the best thing one can do with one's privilege is to use it to go on vacation."
It's almost as though wearing lime green and screaming pink in various preppy combinations makes invisible, by contrast, those people in maids' uniforms, kitchen whites, and logo'ed polo shirts: aspirational clothing desperate to proclaim/perform "Not our kind, dear."
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:45 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's almost as though wearing lime green and screaming pink in various preppy combinations makes invisible, by contrast, those people in maids' uniforms, kitchen whites, and logo'ed polo shirts: aspirational clothing desperate to proclaim/perform "Not our kind, dear."
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:45 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I really like this article; it's the best and most comprehensive take on the Lilly brouhaha I've seen.
I like Lilly Pulitzer's clothes - happy pink and green flowers and lobsters? Hell yeah! - but I don't like the very specific way you're "supposed" to wear Lilly, the white jeans and gold sandals shit. It's really hard to out together an outfit with Lilly and, say, Chucks. And I definitely don't like the preppy sorority girl coding behind them. I don't want to be part of an in-group; I just want to wear my ridiculously cheery florals for the sake of ridiculously cheery florals!
The Lilly Pulitzer brand is in a interesting and somewhat difficult position: it's got the "exclusive" vibe, but it's very accessible as far as upscale brands go. Nicer malls have Lilly Pulitzer stores, and they're hard to miss with all those bright pastels. And the price point is fairly low; Lilly-print shorts are about $60, for example. Most of the people who can afford those $40 Target dresses could buy the original dresses with minimal budgeting. It's approaching the "company shell" status in The Daily Prep's timeline - and that chart is from last year, long before the Target collab. Yet the class coding persists. For now. I wouldn't be surprised if the demographic who originally made Lilly Pulitzer such a desirable brand has already silently moved away from it. They wouldn't kick up a fuss on social media; they'd just move to the next fashionable brand that the masses don't yet know about.
Aesthetically, it's Lisa Frank for grown women; as a social marker, it's Abercrombie and Fitch for grown women.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:56 AM on April 24, 2015 [38 favorites]
I like Lilly Pulitzer's clothes - happy pink and green flowers and lobsters? Hell yeah! - but I don't like the very specific way you're "supposed" to wear Lilly, the white jeans and gold sandals shit. It's really hard to out together an outfit with Lilly and, say, Chucks. And I definitely don't like the preppy sorority girl coding behind them. I don't want to be part of an in-group; I just want to wear my ridiculously cheery florals for the sake of ridiculously cheery florals!
The Lilly Pulitzer brand is in a interesting and somewhat difficult position: it's got the "exclusive" vibe, but it's very accessible as far as upscale brands go. Nicer malls have Lilly Pulitzer stores, and they're hard to miss with all those bright pastels. And the price point is fairly low; Lilly-print shorts are about $60, for example. Most of the people who can afford those $40 Target dresses could buy the original dresses with minimal budgeting. It's approaching the "company shell" status in The Daily Prep's timeline - and that chart is from last year, long before the Target collab. Yet the class coding persists. For now. I wouldn't be surprised if the demographic who originally made Lilly Pulitzer such a desirable brand has already silently moved away from it. They wouldn't kick up a fuss on social media; they'd just move to the next fashionable brand that the masses don't yet know about.
Aesthetically, it's Lisa Frank for grown women; as a social marker, it's Abercrombie and Fitch for grown women.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:56 AM on April 24, 2015 [38 favorites]
The article's statement about the"freedom that comes with privilege" basically sums up preppy fashion. Lilly Pulitzer for women, those ghastly mismatched from pieces of different shirts "fun shirts" for men, go to hell pants, it's all basically about demonstrating that you're above caring about looking like an idiot; no absurd fashion choice will ever have a negative impact on your life.
That said, I suspect some of the ire directed at Lilly Pulitzer is sexism; as always, women's clothing choices are up for more discussion and debate than men's.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
That said, I suspect some of the ire directed at Lilly Pulitzer is sexism; as always, women's clothing choices are up for more discussion and debate than men's.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
If this were a men's clothing brand, would anyone care? The article emphasizes class issues, but surely sexism lies behind the controversy.
posted by unposted letter at 4:50 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by unposted letter at 4:50 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's not that simple.
Women do pay more attention to clothing, because we're supposed to, and that is a result of sexist attitudes - but that just means that women's clothing, since it 'matters more' than men's clothing, is a greater reflector of other issues than men's clothing tends to be. It doesn't just boil down to "this is about women's clothes so it's about sexism."
I think that if you picked from a random sample of American dudes, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find one who even knew what Lilly Pulitzer was, much less what it represents.
The fact that that's how it works in American society is a result of sexism, but this controversy itself is not about sexism, it's about classism.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:58 AM on April 24, 2015 [23 favorites]
Women do pay more attention to clothing, because we're supposed to, and that is a result of sexist attitudes - but that just means that women's clothing, since it 'matters more' than men's clothing, is a greater reflector of other issues than men's clothing tends to be. It doesn't just boil down to "this is about women's clothes so it's about sexism."
I think that if you picked from a random sample of American dudes, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find one who even knew what Lilly Pulitzer was, much less what it represents.
The fact that that's how it works in American society is a result of sexism, but this controversy itself is not about sexism, it's about classism.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:58 AM on April 24, 2015 [23 favorites]
No one knows who took the first shot in the fashion culture wars. But we do know it was an ineffectual, much derided shot.
So, how's that classless society working out for you?
posted by clvrmnky at 5:07 AM on April 24, 2015
So, how's that classless society working out for you?
posted by clvrmnky at 5:07 AM on April 24, 2015
All I see is a woman with huge hair and clip-on earrings and a scarf hairband, smoking cigarettes in the bright sun which illuminates the cracks in her pancake makeup which is several shades too dark for her because that's all you can get in that day and age. This stuff might as well be made out of Terylene, obviously.
posted by tel3path at 5:35 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 5:35 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
What makes it feel like sexism, to me at least, is that "thing is popular, has a launch where not everybody is happy, let's examine the fallout" is a common enough story but it seems like, in the Lilly Pullitzer for Target example, the discussion keeps coming back to the consumers who want it, judging them for being caught up in class signifiers and infantile; meanwhile, random beardos in superhero t-shirts line up outside Apple stores on launch day and are interviewed by the local news, often like conquering heroes of capitalism.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
This article seemed like it was judging the [rich] people who were judging the [not rich] buyers.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:41 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:41 AM on April 24, 2015
Apple things are beautiful and classic design objects and this stuff is... not.
posted by tel3path at 5:45 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by tel3path at 5:45 AM on April 24, 2015
Hmm.
I pay lots of attention to clothes. But i never paid any attention to Lilly Pulitzer.
I was trying to figure out what the kerfuffle was about without actually looking at the clothes - Lilly Pulitzer is the exact opposite of my style, and my eye has never rested for more than an instant on her garments. They always seemed blousy and ill fitting,somehow simultaneously gaudy and plain. There is a case to be made for comfort, but there is a way to do that with a bit of thought to how a garment drapes on the figure. You want carefree, not careless.
Then I remembered - ah, it's a Target thing. They've been partnering with designers for years now, and most of those lines end up on the clearance racks, since they aren't high quality enough or distinctive enough to justify their price point to a shopper who isn't used to spending more than thirty dollars on ANYTHING. The one case I can think of in recent memory that was somewhat similar (people snatching up the clothes to resell online for vastly inflated prices) was the Missoni debacle from a few years ago.
I couldn't help but compare the two. Missoni is very well known and incredibly distinctive. When I say the name you get a picture in your mind of a particular type of fabric. You know what Missoni looks like - even if you don't ..this should ring a bell..
Whereas there is something about Pulitzer's aesthetic that when you cheapen it for mass production it looks REALLY cheap. Like really bad cheap. Like if you spend a lot of money on one of the Target pieces you're gonna have the buyer's remorse so bad you'll have to call 911.
posted by louche mustachio at 5:49 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I pay lots of attention to clothes. But i never paid any attention to Lilly Pulitzer.
I was trying to figure out what the kerfuffle was about without actually looking at the clothes - Lilly Pulitzer is the exact opposite of my style, and my eye has never rested for more than an instant on her garments. They always seemed blousy and ill fitting,somehow simultaneously gaudy and plain. There is a case to be made for comfort, but there is a way to do that with a bit of thought to how a garment drapes on the figure. You want carefree, not careless.
Then I remembered - ah, it's a Target thing. They've been partnering with designers for years now, and most of those lines end up on the clearance racks, since they aren't high quality enough or distinctive enough to justify their price point to a shopper who isn't used to spending more than thirty dollars on ANYTHING. The one case I can think of in recent memory that was somewhat similar (people snatching up the clothes to resell online for vastly inflated prices) was the Missoni debacle from a few years ago.
I couldn't help but compare the two. Missoni is very well known and incredibly distinctive. When I say the name you get a picture in your mind of a particular type of fabric. You know what Missoni looks like - even if you don't ..this should ring a bell..
Whereas there is something about Pulitzer's aesthetic that when you cheapen it for mass production it looks REALLY cheap. Like really bad cheap. Like if you spend a lot of money on one of the Target pieces you're gonna have the buyer's remorse so bad you'll have to call 911.
posted by louche mustachio at 5:49 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wear at least one Lilly Pulitzer piece every single day. I like these clothes because they're well made, they're bright and happy, and they are decidedly unfashionable. Today, for example, I have on a full length skirt in the "Nibbles" print, absolutely covered in bright orange carrots. I am pretty sure a carrot printed skirt is the opposite of high-fashion and snobbery. A carrot skirt, to me, is almost obscenely down to earth. I love the intricacy of the prints, which start out as paintings, and often contain hidden animals, words, and phrases. When I receive a new Lilly piece in the mail and take it out of its package, I enjoy just holding it and looking at it and scouring it for details that I missed before. I love the colors and the feel of the fabric. I also very much admire the late Lilly Pulitzer Rosseau, who started the line almost by accident and who was the exact opposite of a snob.
When Lilly for Target was first announced, I was excited. A chance for the clothes to become more accessible for all women! I was baffled by the complaints from other Lilly fans when the collection was announced, and was even more disappointed when the line sold out in minutes. So much for broadening the audience! I did manage to snap up a few dresses online, and I have been giving them away to family friends who never been able to afford Lilly dresses. They are beautiful, playful, comfortable, happy clothes. I wish more people got to wear them.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 5:52 AM on April 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
When Lilly for Target was first announced, I was excited. A chance for the clothes to become more accessible for all women! I was baffled by the complaints from other Lilly fans when the collection was announced, and was even more disappointed when the line sold out in minutes. So much for broadening the audience! I did manage to snap up a few dresses online, and I have been giving them away to family friends who never been able to afford Lilly dresses. They are beautiful, playful, comfortable, happy clothes. I wish more people got to wear them.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 5:52 AM on April 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
it's all basically about demonstrating that you're above caring about looking like an idiot; no absurd fashion choice will ever have a negative impact on your life.
Ha! This is pretty much it. Why shouldn't everyone wear what they want to wear and look like total idiots in the process, without giving a hoot about high fashion?
posted by SkylitDrawl at 5:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ha! This is pretty much it. Why shouldn't everyone wear what they want to wear and look like total idiots in the process, without giving a hoot about high fashion?
posted by SkylitDrawl at 5:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Of course, SkylitDrawl, but with that joyful attitude I'm sure you pull it off. In general, though, I think these things are not easy for the average person to wear. The difference is commitment to the aesthetic, I think.
I like the look of some of Target's previous designer collaborations and I'd try to get those Altuzarra dresses if they weren't polyester (spit). Design for the masses is a good thing, not a bad thing.
posted by tel3path at 6:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I like the look of some of Target's previous designer collaborations and I'd try to get those Altuzarra dresses if they weren't polyester (spit). Design for the masses is a good thing, not a bad thing.
posted by tel3path at 6:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ha! This is pretty much it. Why shouldn't everyone wear what they want to wear and look like total idiots in the process, without giving a hoot about high fashion?
Well, this is the thing - if you're rich (not saying you are, but you seem like not the typical LP fan), you CAN get away with wearing whatever you want. But if you're poor, you have to conform to a certain standard of dress, or be judged for 'looking poor.'
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Well, this is the thing - if you're rich (not saying you are, but you seem like not the typical LP fan), you CAN get away with wearing whatever you want. But if you're poor, you have to conform to a certain standard of dress, or be judged for 'looking poor.'
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
To be clear, I was really talking about the controversy itself, not the article specifically. There's classism AND sexism surely, and I think not talking about the classism in why people "hate" it just because people are more prone to think about it maybe because of sexism is its own kind of problem which I hope can be avoided.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:02 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:02 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really don't buy this at all. I think that basically, it's an aesthetic judgment masquerading as a moral one. The fashion cognoscenti think that Lilly Pulitzer is gauche, and they're pretending that their objection is that it's classist. Lilly Pulitzer clothes are actually, I think, less classist than the stuff they approve of, and that's why they deride them. They're potentially affordable to more people, and they potentially appeal to a broader audience.
I also think it's hilarious that anyone believes this:
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:04 AM on April 24, 2015 [19 favorites]
I also think it's hilarious that anyone believes this:
If you have the money and the inclination, you can stock your closet—and swath your body—with Alice + Olivia and Thakoon and Marc Jacobs and Marchesa, or with very convincing knockoffs.First of all, you have to have the money, the inclination, and the right body. And second of all, if you have the money is a big if.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:04 AM on April 24, 2015 [19 favorites]
On that we agree. You should wear what you feel best in, what fits you and suits you and makes you happy. You shouldn't care about fashion, but you DO care about style.
Lilly Pulitzer just so happens to be positioned in the middle of that intersection now, apparently. if people didn't think her name was fashionable, anyone would be able to stroll into Target and buy some Targetized Pulitzer right now.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:05 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Lilly Pulitzer just so happens to be positioned in the middle of that intersection now, apparently. if people didn't think her name was fashionable, anyone would be able to stroll into Target and buy some Targetized Pulitzer right now.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:05 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree that design for the masses is a very, very good thing. However, I have to beg to differ that these are clothes that only rich women are able to wear. These clothes are not actually all that expensive, especially on resale, Etsy, and eBay. I am a low level college administrator whose take home pay evens out to less than $20,000 a year, and I have a whole closet full of Lilly. Also, the prices have also been lowered considerably since the Target launch, even in the snobby signature stores and boutiques. Everything went down about $30, which is a great thing. The only non-great thing about the Target line is the quality of the fabric in the pieces. My purchases arrived yesterday and the fabric and lining aren't so great. They still are very comfortable on the body, though, and I am saddened more women were not able to buy them.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think that basically, it's an aesthetic judgment masquerading as a moral one.
I don't bother masquerading my aesthetic judgements. I like to keep things simple and honest that way.
It looks good on you, though.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:09 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't bother masquerading my aesthetic judgements. I like to keep things simple and honest that way.
It looks good on you, though.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:09 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, this is the thing - if you're rich (not saying you are, but you seem like not the typical LP fan), you CAN get away with wearing whatever you want. But if you're poor, you have to conform to a certain standard of dress, or be judged for 'looking poor.'
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at. If you've got the money, you've got a lot more freedom in what you wear, and the "preppy" style is to a great extent about demonstrating that freedom. Every now then the specific choices get slightly more democratized, like Lilly Pulitzer being at Target or when everyone was wearing those red pants beloved by New England WASPs, but the general rule is that the middle and lower classes don't have that freedom.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at. If you've got the money, you've got a lot more freedom in what you wear, and the "preppy" style is to a great extent about demonstrating that freedom. Every now then the specific choices get slightly more democratized, like Lilly Pulitzer being at Target or when everyone was wearing those red pants beloved by New England WASPs, but the general rule is that the middle and lower classes don't have that freedom.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in this day and age, if you plot and scheme hard enough, you can scrounge up some amazing things. You do have to have some disposable income, but you can make a little go a long way. SkylitDrawl has it.
posted by tel3path at 6:12 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 6:12 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would say that the biggest issue with Lilly Pulitzer is that plus size women aren't able to buy it, not that the average woman cannot afford it.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:13 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:13 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
ArbitraryAndCapricious: "First of all, you have to have the money, the inclination, and the right body."
Actually, a cool thing about the Lilly stuff is that it's one of the few lines that purports to be be "fashion" (vs clothing), that has a good plus size range. I mean, all of her designs look like mumu fabric, and they're all cut rather shapeless and "resorty", but unlike some lines who just expand their skinny clothes by a couple of inches and call it "plus"... Lilly's designers actually used big girls and modified the cut to that the dresses hang correctly for a plus size figure. (Their styles are too short for my comfort, but I'm old, so ya know...get off my lawn...)
Because I am one of the (displaced) Austin People In Black, I cannot imagine wearing Lilly colors or patterns, but I absolutely see how people could take joy in them, and be really happy to wear them. And, if you're a girl with big boobs, or big butt, or just big all the way around, to the best of my knowledge, Lilly is the one of a tiny handful of current brands that makes summer "fashion" accessible.
posted by dejah420 at 6:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Actually, a cool thing about the Lilly stuff is that it's one of the few lines that purports to be be "fashion" (vs clothing), that has a good plus size range. I mean, all of her designs look like mumu fabric, and they're all cut rather shapeless and "resorty", but unlike some lines who just expand their skinny clothes by a couple of inches and call it "plus"... Lilly's designers actually used big girls and modified the cut to that the dresses hang correctly for a plus size figure. (Their styles are too short for my comfort, but I'm old, so ya know...get off my lawn...)
Because I am one of the (displaced) Austin People In Black, I cannot imagine wearing Lilly colors or patterns, but I absolutely see how people could take joy in them, and be really happy to wear them. And, if you're a girl with big boobs, or big butt, or just big all the way around, to the best of my knowledge, Lilly is the one of a tiny handful of current brands that makes summer "fashion" accessible.
posted by dejah420 at 6:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
First of all, you have to have the money, the inclination, and the right body.
Yup! Lilly for Target being available in plus sizes accounts for a significant amount of the excitement around this collection. Zac Posen's Target collection went up to like size 12? And even those fit like an 8. Plus size women don't have a ton of options: you can be business-casual in Lane Bryant or casual-casual in Torrid. None of it is distinct at all. Having a fun, bright, girly collection for plus size women that is reasonably priced and isn't all muumuus and tunics is pretty atypical.
posted by almostmanda at 6:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yup! Lilly for Target being available in plus sizes accounts for a significant amount of the excitement around this collection. Zac Posen's Target collection went up to like size 12? And even those fit like an 8. Plus size women don't have a ton of options: you can be business-casual in Lane Bryant or casual-casual in Torrid. None of it is distinct at all. Having a fun, bright, girly collection for plus size women that is reasonably priced and isn't all muumuus and tunics is pretty atypical.
posted by almostmanda at 6:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Skylit, maybe it's just the stores I've been dragged into by friends, but I've seen plus size clothes on the racks there. (This may very well be because of the sheer amount of retail spend in the Dallas and Houston areas?)
posted by dejah420 at 6:15 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by dejah420 at 6:15 AM on April 24, 2015
"fun shirts" for men
I know this is a dig at me. It's not my fault; I hate those shirts too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015
I know this is a dig at me. It's not my fault; I hate those shirts too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015
The sizes available at most stores and online stop at 12. Also, when I bring a plus size friend to a boutique, she's usually treated pretty coldly. I am hoping that the Target collection, which proves that Lilly CAN create clothing for plus size women, changes that.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you've got the money, you've got a lot more freedom in what you wear, and the "preppy" style is to a great extent about demonstrating that freedom.
Strangely, it has never seemed that free to me. There is an illusion of the casual, but behind it there are rules and codes and judgments. There are understandings about the way to display wealth and how much, and above all, you must NOT look like you are trying.
It's strange that Pulitzer is being pulled into this - as noted above (I just had to look this up) her clothes are not really that expensive. The people who missed out on the Target line would do better to snap up originals on clearance or on Ebay, where they will get a better made garment for a similar price.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Strangely, it has never seemed that free to me. There is an illusion of the casual, but behind it there are rules and codes and judgments. There are understandings about the way to display wealth and how much, and above all, you must NOT look like you are trying.
It's strange that Pulitzer is being pulled into this - as noted above (I just had to look this up) her clothes are not really that expensive. The people who missed out on the Target line would do better to snap up originals on clearance or on Ebay, where they will get a better made garment for a similar price.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Earlier this morning I went looking at the Lilly Pulitzer site, because I realized my internal concept of what the brand is may or may not match up to what they're actually doing these days. As far as I can tell, the biggest size anything on the site goes is a 16 or an XL, which for all I know is technically a plus size these days but certainly leaves a vast swathe of the plus size market untapped.
Which is to say, I guess, two things. One, that while it's not my aesthetic (and visiting the site just confirmed that), I get why several of my friends who do like it were super-excited to have some plus size options, and they seem to like the things they got, and I'm delighted for them. But two, I do not get the impression this is a brand particularly welcoming to or interested in the money of people of my size, random occasional stunt collaboration aside.
posted by Stacey at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which is to say, I guess, two things. One, that while it's not my aesthetic (and visiting the site just confirmed that), I get why several of my friends who do like it were super-excited to have some plus size options, and they seem to like the things they got, and I'm delighted for them. But two, I do not get the impression this is a brand particularly welcoming to or interested in the money of people of my size, random occasional stunt collaboration aside.
posted by Stacey at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The one case I can think of in recent memory that was somewhat similar (people snatching up the clothes to resell online for vastly inflated prices) was the Missoni debacle from a few years ago.
The Liberty of London collection had a similar sell-through. I was initially disappointed that I didn't get anything on that one, but I've since found a few of the pieces when thrifting and wow, those were incredibly crappy quality. I wouldn't buy them even at thrift store prices.
I had the same issue with the Vera for Target scarves -- the poly ones were so weirdly plastic that I didn't buy any. I did buy the cotton ones, but they're already shredding. (Meanwhile, the vintage Vera scarves I've thrifted are going strong 50+ years on. I have a few from the 40s that have shattered, but not the rest.)
I like Target's designer events, but I don't get why the quality is so low. The special collection items seem to be of even lower quality than regular Target items.
posted by pie ninja at 6:22 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Liberty of London collection had a similar sell-through. I was initially disappointed that I didn't get anything on that one, but I've since found a few of the pieces when thrifting and wow, those were incredibly crappy quality. I wouldn't buy them even at thrift store prices.
I had the same issue with the Vera for Target scarves -- the poly ones were so weirdly plastic that I didn't buy any. I did buy the cotton ones, but they're already shredding. (Meanwhile, the vintage Vera scarves I've thrifted are going strong 50+ years on. I have a few from the 40s that have shattered, but not the rest.)
I like Target's designer events, but I don't get why the quality is so low. The special collection items seem to be of even lower quality than regular Target items.
posted by pie ninja at 6:22 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would say that the new whimsical, truly expensive preppy brand is Kate Spade.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've just texted my sister, who is the one that dragged me into the store, and she said that my memory was faulty, that the largest size they went up to was much smaller than the 3x they offered with the Target offering.
I stand corrected.
posted by dejah420 at 6:30 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I stand corrected.
posted by dejah420 at 6:30 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
"fun shirts" for men
I know this is a dig at me. It's not my fault; I hate those shirts too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:18 AM on April 24 [+] [!]
Sorry, that was cryptic and might have sounded more defensive than I meant. The problem is that, as Bulgaroktonos well knows, those shirts started getting marketed because my great uncle, who was head of Brooks Brothers at the time (I'm descended from the one with the best mustache), was touring the factory and saw the shirts with mixed patterns that were used by new employees to practice their sewing and garment creation and said "wow, those are some fun shirts!" and thus a God damn hideous trend was born. I effing hate those shirts because they are ugly as sin.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:33 AM on April 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
I know this is a dig at me. It's not my fault; I hate those shirts too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:18 AM on April 24 [+] [!]
Sorry, that was cryptic and might have sounded more defensive than I meant. The problem is that, as Bulgaroktonos well knows, those shirts started getting marketed because my great uncle, who was head of Brooks Brothers at the time (I'm descended from the one with the best mustache), was touring the factory and saw the shirts with mixed patterns that were used by new employees to practice their sewing and garment creation and said "wow, those are some fun shirts!" and thus a God damn hideous trend was born. I effing hate those shirts because they are ugly as sin.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:33 AM on April 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
I would say that the new whimsical, truly expensive preppy brand is Kate Spade.
Fun fact: there was a Kate Spade for Lilly Pulitzer collaboration back in 1996. If you can get your hands on one of these bags, you get 10,000 preppy cred points.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Fun fact: there was a Kate Spade for Lilly Pulitzer collaboration back in 1996. If you can get your hands on one of these bags, you get 10,000 preppy cred points.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
To weigh in on just a small aspect of this discussion: I feel like class resentment at the fact that rich people are able to wear tacky clothes without any repercussions is legitimate and appropriate, HOWEVER, I think that the coding of things like bright colours, bold patterns and gold (both as jewellery and as a colour) as "tacky" ultimately stems from racist and/or xenophobic assumptions that just have to be reassessed. Like, there is definitely nothing objectively classy about neutrals or whatever.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 6:47 AM on April 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 6:47 AM on April 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
Mrs. Pterodactyl, your family invented party shirts?
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:52 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 6:52 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
For me, the most interesting thing about this article is the way it separates privilege from money from luxury. We're so used to marketing campaigns conflating the three that a lot of our emotional reactions sort of assume this.
This Boston Globe article speculates on another point of the consumer outrage, about brand loyalists who were complaining on Twitter when the launch was announced:
This Boston Globe article speculates on another point of the consumer outrage, about brand loyalists who were complaining on Twitter when the launch was announced:
The average college student can’t afford Alexander McQueen, but she can usually save enough money to buy a $188 Lilly dress. The brand allows people to present an image of wealth and high social class even if they aren’t extraordinarily wealthy. The gap between the prices doesn’t separate the clientele of each brand enough.posted by Hypatia at 6:56 AM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
A haute couture brand collaborating with Target wouldn’t even generate the idea of cheapening the brand because it’s already so vaunted and expensive. But a Target collaboration with Lilly hits a little too close to home with brand loyalists because the brand isn’t stratospherically more expensive than the clothes regularly sold at the discount retailer...
...So for those who bar others from entering clubs to make themselves feel more secure, who wear the clothes explicitly to convey a preppy, wealthy, exclusive image, Lilly Pulitzer’s collaboration with Target is deeply threatening.
The sizes available at most stores and online stop at 12. Also, when I bring a plus size friend to a boutique, she's usually treated pretty coldly. I am hoping that the Target collection, which proves that Lilly CAN create clothing for plus size women, changes that.
The Lilly plus size collection is only available online.
And honestly? If anyone thinks Target fixing that is going to fix American attitudes about plus size women shopping for clothes in brick and mortar stores, I have to wonder if the scope of the problem is understood.
posted by gnomeloaf at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Lilly plus size collection is only available online.
And honestly? If anyone thinks Target fixing that is going to fix American attitudes about plus size women shopping for clothes in brick and mortar stores, I have to wonder if the scope of the problem is understood.
posted by gnomeloaf at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
"fun shirts" for men
Oh my god I am now restraining myself from buying a Lilly Pulitzer men's blazer because I really should not buy more clothes I would not be allowed to wear when leaving the house with my wife.
I guess these are going next to "skull cane," "leather pants" and "Chalky White's suits on Boardwalk Empire" on my big list of shit to rock when I'm old enough to be considered eccentric.
ugh I can't find that Sesame Street screenshot of Oscar the Grouch holding up a garish shirt saying "I saw this in the store window and it gave me a headache so I had to buy it immediately."
posted by griphus at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh my god I am now restraining myself from buying a Lilly Pulitzer men's blazer because I really should not buy more clothes I would not be allowed to wear when leaving the house with my wife.
I guess these are going next to "skull cane," "leather pants" and "Chalky White's suits on Boardwalk Empire" on my big list of shit to rock when I'm old enough to be considered eccentric.
ugh I can't find that Sesame Street screenshot of Oscar the Grouch holding up a garish shirt saying "I saw this in the store window and it gave me a headache so I had to buy it immediately."
posted by griphus at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I work in fashion and the women in my office were very excited about the Target collaboration, got to the store early this weekend, purchased 5 items each (the limit), and promptly put them on eBay when they saw the re-sale prices. One just sold a $20 shirt for over $50.
I feel like fashion is always going to be about rules and gate-keeping. Lilly is appropriate at a yacht club in Rye, but sticks out like a sore thumb in my office where everyone wears black. Knowing the ever-changing rules for what is acceptable where is what makes the fashion industry keep running.
I would never spend $200 on a Lilly dress cause it's just not my style, but I thought a couple of the Target items were cute enough to spend $30 on. I really wanted the champagne glasses though.
posted by elvissa at 7:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like fashion is always going to be about rules and gate-keeping. Lilly is appropriate at a yacht club in Rye, but sticks out like a sore thumb in my office where everyone wears black. Knowing the ever-changing rules for what is acceptable where is what makes the fashion industry keep running.
I would never spend $200 on a Lilly dress cause it's just not my style, but I thought a couple of the Target items were cute enough to spend $30 on. I really wanted the champagne glasses though.
posted by elvissa at 7:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hypatia, I agree with you! This became a pretty famous e-mail among Lilly Pulitzer fans in January when the collaboration was announced.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Lilly plus size collection is only available online.
The Target collaboration plus collection was available online for approximately 10 minutes at 3 AM on a Sunday morning. There is no plus size collection available at the signature stores or on the brand website.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:02 AM on April 24, 2015
The Target collaboration plus collection was available online for approximately 10 minutes at 3 AM on a Sunday morning. There is no plus size collection available at the signature stores or on the brand website.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:02 AM on April 24, 2015
Mrs. Pterodactyl, your family invented party shirts?
My family is responsible for unleashing a lot of crazy nonsense on the world and when the revolution comes I will fully accept my spot near the front of the line, just give me a cigarette and a blindfold so I don't have to spend my final minutes staring at those damn shirts.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:04 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
My family is responsible for unleashing a lot of crazy nonsense on the world and when the revolution comes I will fully accept my spot near the front of the line, just give me a cigarette and a blindfold so I don't have to spend my final minutes staring at those damn shirts.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:04 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ha, I love those party shirts, but I admit I am a true weirdo.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:06 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:06 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I still have my Lilly flats from the early 1990s, and they still look very nice. They're red suede with a tiny green palm tree stitched on each shoe onto the bit that goes over the foot.
That said, of course the display of privilege was probably a big reason behind the mad rush for those dresses, which I was never into, so I wasn't looking to buy one. I hate the prints and shifts look horrible on me. I recall in the 80s, many people took Lisa Birnbach's Preppy Handbook seriously, so why should it be any different today? Ain't a damn thing changed: "Go to hell" golf pants, anyone?
The only "preppy" bit of clothing I wish I could find is one of those old school "Norwegian" navy blue wool sweaters with the little white checks that LL Bean used to make. A pal of mine in high school had that sweater, and it looked great. LL Bean doesn't make them anymore.
posted by droplet at 7:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
That said, of course the display of privilege was probably a big reason behind the mad rush for those dresses, which I was never into, so I wasn't looking to buy one. I hate the prints and shifts look horrible on me. I recall in the 80s, many people took Lisa Birnbach's Preppy Handbook seriously, so why should it be any different today? Ain't a damn thing changed: "Go to hell" golf pants, anyone?
The only "preppy" bit of clothing I wish I could find is one of those old school "Norwegian" navy blue wool sweaters with the little white checks that LL Bean used to make. A pal of mine in high school had that sweater, and it looked great. LL Bean doesn't make them anymore.
posted by droplet at 7:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
My family is responsible for unleashing a lot of crazy nonsense on the world and when the revolution comes I will fully accept my spot near the front of the line, just give me a cigarette and a blindfold so I don't have to spend my final minutes staring at those damn shirts.
I'm afraid that when the revolution comes and the anarchist hordes are baying for blood (with me at their head, that's the way this will work) , I will have to protect you because I like those shirts. This will leave no one happy.
posted by Frowner at 7:09 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm afraid that when the revolution comes and the anarchist hordes are baying for blood (with me at their head, that's the way this will work) , I will have to protect you because I like those shirts. This will leave no one happy.
posted by Frowner at 7:09 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've had trouble taking Robin Givhan seriously ever since she said back in the 90's that women who wear suits and high heels to work should not change into sneakers while walking outside.
How can something that is available for purchase "represent something that money cannot buy"? Are these privileged people bartering for their Lilly Pulitzer clothes?
posted by Anne Neville at 7:11 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
How can something that is available for purchase "represent something that money cannot buy"? Are these privileged people bartering for their Lilly Pulitzer clothes?
posted by Anne Neville at 7:11 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only "preppy" bit of clothing I wish I could find is one of those old school "Norwegian" navy blue wool sweaters with the little white checks that LL Bean used to make. A pal of mine in high school had that sweater, and it looked great. LL Bean doesn't make them anymore.
LL Bean reissued some in the last couple of years, but there are about twenty million squillion billion of the old ones on eBay every winter. They itch me fiercely; I was able to find a cotton version from Lands End.
posted by Frowner at 7:23 AM on April 24, 2015
How can something that is available for purchase "represent something that money cannot buy"? Are these privileged people bartering for their Lilly Pulitzer clothes?Lilly Pulitzer is associated with preppy style in general and with a specific Palm Beach social scene in particular, and it's sort of about WASPy old money or people who aspire to look like they're WASPy old money. (The irony, of course, is that the Pulitzer money comes from Joseph Pulitzer, who was a Hungarian Jew an an archetypal immigrant rags-to-riches story. Old money in the US is usually not that old, and I don't know that it's exclusively WASPy.) But I think a lot of fashion is about fantasy, and I'm not sure that fantasy is any more pernicious than any other fantasy.
I'm not a huge defender of Lilly Pulitzer, for what it's worth. I love the bright colors and patterns, but I'm curvy, and I'm never going to be able to rock a shift dress. I just think the objections are kind of hypocritical. Also, Robin Givhan bugs me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
My daughter's had two Lily Pulitzer A-line dresses given to her as hand-me downs. (My wife also once picked up a new one at a consignment sale for a dollar.)
She looks great in them. The patterns are light, fun florals and the dresses are well-made. They're not flimsy, or poorly cut.
New, they're priced way out of range of what we would normally spend on her wardrobe. ($50-100 per dress.) Plus they're a little too fancy for everyday. But I can totally see the appeal.
posted by zarq at 7:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
She looks great in them. The patterns are light, fun florals and the dresses are well-made. They're not flimsy, or poorly cut.
New, they're priced way out of range of what we would normally spend on her wardrobe. ($50-100 per dress.) Plus they're a little too fancy for everyday. But I can totally see the appeal.
posted by zarq at 7:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
To weigh in on just a small aspect of this discussion: I feel like class resentment at the fact that rich people are able to wear tacky clothes without any repercussions is legitimate and appropriate, HOWEVER, I think that the coding of things like bright colours, bold patterns and gold (both as jewellery and as a colour) as "tacky" ultimately stems from racist and/or xenophobic assumptions that just have to be reassessed. Like, there is definitely nothing objectively classy about neutrals or whatever.
It's not a choice between 'bright colors' and 'boring neutrals.' There are colorful patterns and there are colorful patterns. And no offense to SkylitDrawl or other fans, but LP's colorful patterns just... don't look nice to me.
Hypatia, I agree with you! This became a pretty famous e-mail among Lilly Pulitzer fans in January when the collaboration was announced.
I YEARN to know what this woman meant by "the preppy look said a lot about a person and their morals." I'm assuming it means 'genteel Southern WASPy upper-class Republican debutante virgin morals' but that may be colored by my experiences at a fancy Southern university.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's not a choice between 'bright colors' and 'boring neutrals.' There are colorful patterns and there are colorful patterns. And no offense to SkylitDrawl or other fans, but LP's colorful patterns just... don't look nice to me.
Hypatia, I agree with you! This became a pretty famous e-mail among Lilly Pulitzer fans in January when the collaboration was announced.
I YEARN to know what this woman meant by "the preppy look said a lot about a person and their morals." I'm assuming it means 'genteel Southern WASPy upper-class Republican debutante virgin morals' but that may be colored by my experiences at a fancy Southern university.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:40 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
I YEARN to know what this woman meant by "the preppy look said a lot about a person and their morals." I'm assuming it means 'genteel Southern WASPy upper-class Republican debutante virgin morals' but that may be colored by my experiences at a fancy Southern university.
Yes. Preppy lifestyle. Traditional values, etc.
Which was mocked in a couple of books by Lisa Birnbach -- one of which dates back to the 80's.
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes. Preppy lifestyle. Traditional values, etc.
Which was mocked in a couple of books by Lisa Birnbach -- one of which dates back to the 80's.
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
a Lilly Pulitzer men's blazer
WOW. Lilly Pulitzer's Beatles Acid Trip Extravaganza!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:52 AM on April 24, 2015
WOW. Lilly Pulitzer's Beatles Acid Trip Extravaganza!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:52 AM on April 24, 2015
What's funny is that the morals this girl is talking about in her email run exactly antithetical to what Lilly Pulitzer Rousseau was all about.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:56 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:56 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Keep in mind that Jackie Kennedy AND her house maids wore Lilly shifts.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Decent looking preppy outfits for women usually fall into "I am riding a horse" and "I am either a senator or married to one.." So anything that covers the casual or everyday market without looking like you're about to clean a barn is going to be popular now that we've decided Preppiness is just the default baseline.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
There's a Carles.buzzing in my ear about this article.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
A lot of the Lilly hate is bizarre to me since I live in South Florida, aka the Lilly Pulitzer mothership. The prints are fun and bright and colorful, and the cuts to many of the dresses are far more forgiving than other brands. It's not my everyday aesthetic, but it is by far my favored brand for wedding guest attire for beach or daytime weddings, and it is the perfect thing to throw on if you are unsure of the dress code; at least in Florida, no one would consider Lilly as too casual for a nice dinner, nor would anyone consider it too dressed up for a casual lunch. Whenever I have to attend something where I have no idea what would be appropriate to wear, I tend to reach for a Lilly dress and it is always exactly right for the occasion. Little black dress? No thanks, Florida prefers the little insanely patterned with neon-creatures dress.
posted by gatorae at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
I associate Lilly Pulitzer with my mean, snobbish, clueless, Lucille Bluth-ish grandmother getting hilariously huffy because her cleaning lady refused her ludicrous, hand-me-down resortwear.
"I mean, I can't believe [cleaning lady]doesn't want this dress [Hideous, impractical, neon green palm-printed]. It's just the thing in Palm Beach"
I hate Lilly Pulitzer.
posted by thivaia at 8:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I mean, I can't believe [cleaning lady]doesn't want this dress [Hideous, impractical, neon green palm-printed]. It's just the thing in Palm Beach"
I hate Lilly Pulitzer.
posted by thivaia at 8:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
We have a store on our local pedestrian mall which sells, and heavily promotes through their window displays, Lily Pulitzer. I've always thought that it looked like the Easter Bunny threw up all over the store.
posted by brand-gnu at 9:03 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by brand-gnu at 9:03 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like given the dearth of in any way affordable vintage clothing anymore, my eye is always caught by the Lilly patterns that suggest Pucci/Liberty prints, etc.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:31 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mynameisluka at 9:31 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just reading this now, and I'm definitely down with how the Lily Pulitzer brand sort of bespeaks "preppy/country club" in its vibe.
the thing is...so do Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger, at least to me. So this sounds like it's the whole "eek they put this line in the reach of the great unwashed hoi palloi what a scandal" thing that causes the most ire, because TH and RL have not, to my knowledge, gone the Target route and aren't hated on.
I actually kind of like Tommy Hilfiger but I grew up in New England and my mom's family was kinda on the edge of monied so it reads more like "the way everyone dressed where Grandma lived" than anything else.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
the thing is...so do Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger, at least to me. So this sounds like it's the whole "eek they put this line in the reach of the great unwashed hoi palloi what a scandal" thing that causes the most ire, because TH and RL have not, to my knowledge, gone the Target route and aren't hated on.
I actually kind of like Tommy Hilfiger but I grew up in New England and my mom's family was kinda on the edge of monied so it reads more like "the way everyone dressed where Grandma lived" than anything else.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does everything in her collection look like a vinyl picnic table cloth?
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:59 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
For the people who think “sheesh, they’re just brightly colored clothes, why all the hate?”, it is important to realize that LP is often the summer uniform for people who use it to code themselves as “breezy beach fun, loving life, wind in your hair tra-la!!” types while living their actual lives as vindictively as possible.
I never thought about the design line at ALL (too lower-middle class for it to be on my radar) until I had a job where I suddenly worked in nonprofit special events run by staff but “assisted” by “volunteers” who were actually there for status and competition, and any summer event was full of Lilly Pulitzer.
Picture it: Petty tyrannies, cutting comments, demanding credit while refusing to do any work, “oh, well, [RICH PERSON’S CHILD] the 3rd is planning on Princeton, of course,” dog whistle racism ALL THE TIME (while donating to proper liberal causes), endless sneering, drinking enough for things to get truly nasty, glad-handing with all the prominent guests and blanking the rest.*
It got to the point (for me) where seeing someone wearing LP basically filled me with dread, because there was very little chance, in the context of that particular job, that they would be easy or pleasant to deal with.
The clothes, as objects devoid of any context or history or meaning, are just brightly colored clothes. But as a signifier, they stand for a culture that is just relentlessly toxic, and people who dislike the clothes are often reacting to that culture rather than any individual wearing an actual garment.
*(See also: sorority rush at any southern university, at events where wearing a sundress is a requirement, but you obviously can’t show up in a regular sundress from Sears because then you won’t get to pledge anywhere and life will be over.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
I never thought about the design line at ALL (too lower-middle class for it to be on my radar) until I had a job where I suddenly worked in nonprofit special events run by staff but “assisted” by “volunteers” who were actually there for status and competition, and any summer event was full of Lilly Pulitzer.
Picture it: Petty tyrannies, cutting comments, demanding credit while refusing to do any work, “oh, well, [RICH PERSON’S CHILD] the 3rd is planning on Princeton, of course,” dog whistle racism ALL THE TIME (while donating to proper liberal causes), endless sneering, drinking enough for things to get truly nasty, glad-handing with all the prominent guests and blanking the rest.*
It got to the point (for me) where seeing someone wearing LP basically filled me with dread, because there was very little chance, in the context of that particular job, that they would be easy or pleasant to deal with.
The clothes, as objects devoid of any context or history or meaning, are just brightly colored clothes. But as a signifier, they stand for a culture that is just relentlessly toxic, and people who dislike the clothes are often reacting to that culture rather than any individual wearing an actual garment.
*(See also: sorority rush at any southern university, at events where wearing a sundress is a requirement, but you obviously can’t show up in a regular sundress from Sears because then you won’t get to pledge anywhere and life will be over.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Wow. Are you also this pissed off about other clothing brands that preppy people tend to wear (JCrew, Vineyard Vines, Tuckernuck, Southern Proper, LL Bean, Ralph Lauren, Brooks Brothers, etc), or is it just Lilly Pulitzer that bothers you?
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure I didn't say anything about Lilly Pulitzer pissing me off, actually? I said that the line is tied to a specific culture, and that people who cringe at the line are often metonymically (is that a word?) cringing at the culture.
It is especially noticeable with this brand because the brand is especially noticeable. A JCrew turtleneck just looks like a turtleneck. Ralph Lauren khakis just look like khakis. The distinctiveness of LP is, historically, tied to its role as a class signifier.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:34 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
It is especially noticeable with this brand because the brand is especially noticeable. A JCrew turtleneck just looks like a turtleneck. Ralph Lauren khakis just look like khakis. The distinctiveness of LP is, historically, tied to its role as a class signifier.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:34 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe it's not fair, but I have the exact same association with LP. If I see someone wearing LP I assume they are upper middle class, wealthy, and conservative (either socially or politically).
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
This seems to be less about the brand and more about people's dislike for its target demographic. Sorority girls and women who frequent country clubs are easy to lump together and despise as a group.
Also, I can always tell when something is JCrew. They have very distinct prints and products that many wealthy women and sorority girls also like (the Pixie pants, scallops, herringbone, houndstooth, pleather the smoking slippers, the chino shorts, the puffer vests, limited edition flannels, the embellished novelty sweaters, etc).
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, I can always tell when something is JCrew. They have very distinct prints and products that many wealthy women and sorority girls also like (the Pixie pants, scallops, herringbone, houndstooth, pleather the smoking slippers, the chino shorts, the puffer vests, limited edition flannels, the embellished novelty sweaters, etc).
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sorority girls and women who frequent country clubs are easy to lump together and despise as a group.
This is a fairly antagonistic (if not malicious) interpretation of what I actually said, but yeah, that's my whole point-- the brand serves as a class marker for particular groups. If you have bad experiences with those groups in the aggregate (as many mefites here are saying they have), then you are unlikely to be able to look at the clothing in a semiotic vacuum.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a fairly antagonistic (if not malicious) interpretation of what I actually said, but yeah, that's my whole point-- the brand serves as a class marker for particular groups. If you have bad experiences with those groups in the aggregate (as many mefites here are saying they have), then you are unlikely to be able to look at the clothing in a semiotic vacuum.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the only thing that you can really infer from someone wearing a certain clothing item is that they like the way it looks.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 11:05 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 11:05 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Until this very moment, I had no idea Lilly Pulitzer was a) available for adult women and b) considered preppy.
To be, Lilly Pulitzer is girls sundresses, the kind that a certain type of soccer mom dresses her daughter in, and then yells when the daughter gets it dirty at the playground.
The reason I know it's Lilly Pulitzer is that this same mom will find a way to bring it up, even if no one has mentioned her child's clothing.
Now that they have appeared at Target, it will be interesting to see this summer if the sundresses start appearing at the other, more "economically diverse" playgrounds and start disappearing in the more affluent parks.
posted by madajb at 11:19 AM on April 24, 2015
To be, Lilly Pulitzer is girls sundresses, the kind that a certain type of soccer mom dresses her daughter in, and then yells when the daughter gets it dirty at the playground.
The reason I know it's Lilly Pulitzer is that this same mom will find a way to bring it up, even if no one has mentioned her child's clothing.
Now that they have appeared at Target, it will be interesting to see this summer if the sundresses start appearing at the other, more "economically diverse" playgrounds and start disappearing in the more affluent parks.
posted by madajb at 11:19 AM on April 24, 2015
So it's something that could be cool in and of itself, but so many of its biggest fans are awful* that it gets tarnished itself. You know, like Jesus.
*Not including you, SkylitDrawl. Sounds like you'd be fun to hang out with. But that Jessica Purchase comes off as so awful, and she's tied so much of her awfulness to this brand, that it's hard not to associate the brand with her, as a few people have attested in this thread. It's definitely not fair, but it's hard not to.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:22 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
*Not including you, SkylitDrawl. Sounds like you'd be fun to hang out with. But that Jessica Purchase comes off as so awful, and she's tied so much of her awfulness to this brand, that it's hard not to associate the brand with her, as a few people have attested in this thread. It's definitely not fair, but it's hard not to.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:22 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the only thing that you can really infer from someone wearing a certain clothing item is that they like the way it looks.
What are your feelings on fedoras
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
What are your feelings on fedoras
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because pink.
posted by limeonaire at 11:29 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by limeonaire at 11:29 AM on April 24, 2015
My new theory: hating Lilly Pulitzer is itself a fairly elite class signifier, because you have to interact with people who wear Lilly Pulitzer to understand why one would hate Lilly Pulitzer.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:32 AM on April 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:32 AM on April 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
What are your feelings on fedoras
I don't really have any feelings about them.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 11:33 AM on April 24, 2015
I don't really have any feelings about them.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 11:33 AM on April 24, 2015
other girle:
Tanned
Lilly Pulitzer dresses
Casual racism
Sororities
Day Drinking
me:
Quiet
Keeps to myself
Like piles of leaves
Moves to top of leaf piles to produce a fruiting body
Releases spores
Neither an animal nor fugus.
posted by The Whelk at 11:48 AM on April 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
Tanned
Lilly Pulitzer dresses
Casual racism
Sororities
Day Drinking
me:
Quiet
Keeps to myself
Like piles of leaves
Moves to top of leaf piles to produce a fruiting body
Releases spores
Neither an animal nor fugus.
posted by The Whelk at 11:48 AM on April 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
Hmm...went to the LP site, didn't see any dark-skinned women of color.
Contrast that with LL Bean, J Crew, and Land's End: didn't take long to find a woman of color at all.
Not that I'm a captain of fashion or anything, but I thought much of the clothing was nice. But still, message received loud and clear.
posted by lord_wolf at 11:49 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Contrast that with LL Bean, J Crew, and Land's End: didn't take long to find a woman of color at all.
Not that I'm a captain of fashion or anything, but I thought much of the clothing was nice. But still, message received loud and clear.
posted by lord_wolf at 11:49 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wherein I realize I probably went to the same school as showbiz_liz.
Which makes this easy because I can just favorite all those comments...
posted by susiswimmer at 11:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Which makes this easy because I can just favorite all those comments...
posted by susiswimmer at 11:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
But you had to have a cute little sundress to wear to the football game mixer when the guys wear coat and tie!!!
I usually went still soaking wet from swim practice and in shorts and a t-shirt. And only because the football stadium backed up to the pool and you basically had to walk through it to get back to your car.
To say I didn't fit in would be a colossal understatement. So I have a deep seated aversion therapy style reaction to these dresses, and actually find this whole brouhaha kinda hilarious.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:03 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I usually went still soaking wet from swim practice and in shorts and a t-shirt. And only because the football stadium backed up to the pool and you basically had to walk through it to get back to your car.
To say I didn't fit in would be a colossal understatement. So I have a deep seated aversion therapy style reaction to these dresses, and actually find this whole brouhaha kinda hilarious.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:03 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the only thing that you can really infer from someone wearing a certain clothing item is that they like the way it looks.
Sorry, but according to this thread, everyone's aesthetic preferences are exquisitely thought out, with all political and economic considerations being factored in by all parties all of the time.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sorry, but according to this thread, everyone's aesthetic preferences are exquisitely thought out, with all political and economic considerations being factored in by all parties all of the time.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn't know this Lily Pulitzer thing until the Target thing, so, I had to look it up. I decided it's like Lisa Frank for adults. My grandma used to knock together house dresses from bargain bin fabric for doing chores. I think she used to clean the hen house in a Lily Pulitzer.
posted by Foam Pants at 12:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 12:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Things I know about lily pulitzer: they're easy to find at thrift stores because of their garish prints and they re-sell reasonably well.
posted by Ferreous at 1:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh golly, yes. My aesthetic preferences say "I may very possibly eat other humans on a regular basis."
I just watched a Lilly haul on YouTube and some of the things were nice except for that one detail. For example, a pink and white A-line dress that had bright pink lace all down the centre front. And it wasn't a detail you could easily unpick, either. Still I can see why people like them.
posted by tel3path at 2:19 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just watched a Lilly haul on YouTube and some of the things were nice except for that one detail. For example, a pink and white A-line dress that had bright pink lace all down the centre front. And it wasn't a detail you could easily unpick, either. Still I can see why people like them.
posted by tel3path at 2:19 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
, in this day and age, if you plot and scheme hard enough, you can scrounge up some amazing things. You do have to have some disposable income, but you can make a little go a long way. SkylitDrawl has it.
If you have a body that fits into common sizes, at least.
posted by corb at 2:20 PM on April 24, 2015
If you have a body that fits into common sizes, at least.
posted by corb at 2:20 PM on April 24, 2015
And if you don't, you have to throw away everything in your life that isn't sewing, or else wear burlap sacks.
I feel ya.
I hear good things about eShakti, but they cost.
posted by tel3path at 2:24 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel ya.
I hear good things about eShakti, but they cost.
posted by tel3path at 2:24 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
What floral pink and green? I see them all as blue and black (but I can be convinced to see them as white and gold, given as I am to the wisdom of crowds).
posted by Chitownfats at 3:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 3:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Givhan's awful article reads like dog whistle sexism-- "shrill" ... "bored housewife." Ugh. No.
posted by hush at 4:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by hush at 4:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pulitzer also makes, or at least used to make, resortwear for men as well. I own multiple pairs of vintage long pants, in gaudy prints, and I love them. Sometimes I wear them ironically, sometimes as reminders of my preppy past, sometimes to annoy my west coast granola friends.
I was extremely disappointed the Target Pulitzer line was ladies styles only.
posted by Dreidl at 5:57 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was extremely disappointed the Target Pulitzer line was ladies styles only.
posted by Dreidl at 5:57 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Lilly Pulitzer is not really my style, although a lot of my friends who are sorority alumnae still go crazy for it. (Especially the sorority prints) Still, I did appreciate that there were plus size items in the collection. I think that was a first for the designer collaborations.
posted by SisterHavana at 12:18 AM on April 25, 2015
posted by SisterHavana at 12:18 AM on April 25, 2015
I appreciate fashion and over the years have demonstrated some interest in the Target designer lines, particularly Alice Temperley. A lot of the other stuff was just crap.
Anyway, years ago I was shopping in NYC and there was a long line of people in front of the Soho Uggs store and there was a red velvet rope and a few security people. So I asked the doorman what was up and he said that Uggs was so now, so super hot, that they had to control those crazy for Uggs with this security measure.
And I thought, "That's stupid, " and went on my way. Later, having coffee, I was telling out server about the Uggs line who said, "It's bullshit. Those are actors being paid to stand in line," and I thought, "HAHA! That makes perfect sense since I can buy freakin' Uggs online and at most shoe stores."
My point is this: I STRONGLY suspect, given how few people really appreciate Pulitzer's aesthetic and how it's a cultural signifier that few fashionistas appreciate (I mean, if one wants a Pulitzer it ain't like they're all THAT pricey or hard to find), is that Target knows their Go Collections have been tanking and planned this.
I posit that Target had people crash their servers, buy all the Pulitzer crap, and make it look much more successful than it actually ever would have been.
I think it's all a stupid publicity stunt, just like Uggs hired people to pretend to stand in line.
posted by kinetic at 5:31 AM on April 25, 2015
Anyway, years ago I was shopping in NYC and there was a long line of people in front of the Soho Uggs store and there was a red velvet rope and a few security people. So I asked the doorman what was up and he said that Uggs was so now, so super hot, that they had to control those crazy for Uggs with this security measure.
And I thought, "That's stupid, " and went on my way. Later, having coffee, I was telling out server about the Uggs line who said, "It's bullshit. Those are actors being paid to stand in line," and I thought, "HAHA! That makes perfect sense since I can buy freakin' Uggs online and at most shoe stores."
My point is this: I STRONGLY suspect, given how few people really appreciate Pulitzer's aesthetic and how it's a cultural signifier that few fashionistas appreciate (I mean, if one wants a Pulitzer it ain't like they're all THAT pricey or hard to find), is that Target knows their Go Collections have been tanking and planned this.
I posit that Target had people crash their servers, buy all the Pulitzer crap, and make it look much more successful than it actually ever would have been.
I think it's all a stupid publicity stunt, just like Uggs hired people to pretend to stand in line.
posted by kinetic at 5:31 AM on April 25, 2015
My new theory: hating Lilly Pulitzer is itself a fairly elite class signifier, because you have to interact with people who wear Lilly Pulitzer to understand why one would hate Lilly Pulitzer.
winner.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:41 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
winner.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:41 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by OmieWise at 3:28 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]