Begun, the syrup wars have
April 29, 2015 6:44 AM Subscribe
“I asked, ‘Why are you here?’ He said ‘pot.’ Later I saw him and asked, ‘What did you get?’ He said he got a $150 fine. And for selling maple syrup, I have a $424,000 fine. There is something wrong with this picture.”
“I get the best of both worlds. I go to New Brunswick and expand, and I get the Quebec [influenced] price for New Brunswick syrup,” Dostie says. “We get paid 100 per cent in New Brunswick, and in Quebec we are paid at 75 per cent. I pay $30,000 in dues to the federation in Quebec; in New Brunswick I pay $1,200.”
"Thanks for letting me get a decent and consistent price for my product. By the way here's my middle finger."
What a prick.
posted by Talez at 7:04 AM on April 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Thanks for letting me get a decent and consistent price for my product. By the way here's my middle finger."
What a prick.
posted by Talez at 7:04 AM on April 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well, the maple syrup _is_ the more addictive substance of the two.
posted by delfin at 7:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by delfin at 7:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Like those Western growers who not long ago rebelled against the similarly monopolistic Canadian Wheat Board before Ottawa liberated them..."
This is a quixotic interpretation of what happened, and the right-wing inclination that drives it should be kept in the back of one's mind when reading the rest of the article.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:25 AM on April 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
This is a quixotic interpretation of what happened, and the right-wing inclination that drives it should be kept in the back of one's mind when reading the rest of the article.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:25 AM on April 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
"Thanks for letting me get a decent and consistent price for my product. By the way here's my middle finger."
Only this year, he'll likely get jack shit. A good friend of mine whose family is in Nova Scotia runs a sugar bush. The terrible winter this year has led many syrup producers in the Maritimes to not even attempt to collect sap, because of a combination of the weather staying cold and pipelines being buried under several feet of snow.
The Quebec producers will have stability, and well, I hope this guy saved his pennies.
posted by HighLife at 7:31 AM on April 29, 2015
Only this year, he'll likely get jack shit. A good friend of mine whose family is in Nova Scotia runs a sugar bush. The terrible winter this year has led many syrup producers in the Maritimes to not even attempt to collect sap, because of a combination of the weather staying cold and pipelines being buried under several feet of snow.
The Quebec producers will have stability, and well, I hope this guy saved his pennies.
posted by HighLife at 7:31 AM on April 29, 2015
CTRL-F "free rider": 0 results.
This is my surprised face.
posted by Etrigan at 7:48 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is my surprised face.
posted by Etrigan at 7:48 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maple syrup revolution?:
In October 2013, Drs. Tim Perkins and Abby van Den Berg of the University of Vermont’s Proctor Maple Research Center, revealed the findings of a study at a maple syrup conference in New Brunswick, Canada that sent waves through the industry.posted by Kabanos at 7:58 AM on April 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
...
They lopped off the top of the small trees, put caps on them with a tube inserted, sealed the cap and put them under vacuum. The young trees produced impressive quantities of sap, even without the benefit of a crown.
...
They realized that their discovery meant sugarmakers could use saplings, densely planted in open fields, to harvest sap. In other words, it is possible that maple syrup could now be produced as a row crop like every other commercial crop in North America.
I was wondering why the price of sizzurp had gone through the roof in recent years.
All the supermarkets around here seem to be selling that stamped on shit that's cut to hell with corn.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:00 AM on April 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
All the supermarkets around here seem to be selling that stamped on shit that's cut to hell with corn.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:00 AM on April 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, the maple syrup _is_ the more addictive substance of the two.
Probably worse for you, too.
Then again, marijuana can lead to flapjacks, which can lead to, well, you know.... (Gateway drug!)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:07 AM on April 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
Probably worse for you, too.
Then again, marijuana can lead to flapjacks, which can lead to, well, you know.... (Gateway drug!)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:07 AM on April 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
“Don’t be too hard on us,” says Rouillard. “We know that economically it’s not the best thing, but we want to protect our producers. It’s our distinct society. A lot of anglophones don’t understand us.”
This quote emphasizes how deeply political and tied into Quebec identity politics this is. That's a nationalist dog-whistle. This isn't just left-right politics, though there is some of that. A strain in Quebec nationalism is the impulse to collective management, in contrast to the rights of its farmers to manage their own production. Marketing boards don't have to be cartels, but marketing boards also typically are not used to define a national identity.
posted by bonehead at 8:08 AM on April 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
This quote emphasizes how deeply political and tied into Quebec identity politics this is. That's a nationalist dog-whistle. This isn't just left-right politics, though there is some of that. A strain in Quebec nationalism is the impulse to collective management, in contrast to the rights of its farmers to manage their own production. Marketing boards don't have to be cartels, but marketing boards also typically are not used to define a national identity.
posted by bonehead at 8:08 AM on April 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
I should add, this division is happening in areas and with families who are typically among the strongest supporters of Quebec cultural self-determination.
posted by bonehead at 8:10 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 8:10 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kabanos, that was a thread here previously.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:12 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:12 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can you explain a bit more, bonehead ? I saw that quote too, and knew that it was dog-whistle for something, but I don't have the background to grok it.
posted by k5.user at 8:14 AM on April 29, 2015
posted by k5.user at 8:14 AM on April 29, 2015
Interesting from the guy in NB who said essentially that they do very well next door to Quebec because they get the higher prices Quebec forces but don't have to deal with the cartel. But this only works because Quebec has such a large majority of the market so NB, ON, VT, etc cannot swamp with excess production.
posted by jeather at 8:17 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jeather at 8:17 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
k5.user: I saw that quote too, and knew that it was dog-whistle for something, but I don't have the background to grok it.
It's a dog whistle to Quebec nationalism in general, particularly the brand peddled by the Parti-Quebecois (PQ).
A good starting point for understanding this overall sentiment is the Quiet Revolution in Quebec, because it was both a cultural and economic phenomenon. Economic and fiscal policy in Quebec is intimately bound up with nationalism in one way or another.
The 1995 referendum on Quebec sovereignty was very narrowly decided.
Pierre-Karl Peladeau, the PQ's current leader, has been cagey about whether or not he'd hold another referendum if his party returns to power.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:42 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's a dog whistle to Quebec nationalism in general, particularly the brand peddled by the Parti-Quebecois (PQ).
A good starting point for understanding this overall sentiment is the Quiet Revolution in Quebec, because it was both a cultural and economic phenomenon. Economic and fiscal policy in Quebec is intimately bound up with nationalism in one way or another.
The 1995 referendum on Quebec sovereignty was very narrowly decided.
Pierre-Karl Peladeau, the PQ's current leader, has been cagey about whether or not he'd hold another referendum if his party returns to power.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:42 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I saw that quote too, and knew that it was dog-whistle for something, but I don't have the background to grok it.
The large number of French Canadians in Quebec has meant, for the past 50 years or so, that independence from Canada has been a recurring topic of debate. French speaking Quebecers have sought to enshrine their unique characteristics in law, for example by requiring French language materials wherever non-french materials are present (great at preventing imported goods from the US). It seems that limiting the supply of maple syrup is implied as also part of that nationalistic identity.
Basically 'We have to protect maple syrup, or our culture will be enveloped by the English speaking majority of the North American Continent.' Of course, you anglophones wouldn't understand why that's so terrible :P
posted by pwnguin at 8:42 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The large number of French Canadians in Quebec has meant, for the past 50 years or so, that independence from Canada has been a recurring topic of debate. French speaking Quebecers have sought to enshrine their unique characteristics in law, for example by requiring French language materials wherever non-french materials are present (great at preventing imported goods from the US). It seems that limiting the supply of maple syrup is implied as also part of that nationalistic identity.
Basically 'We have to protect maple syrup, or our culture will be enveloped by the English speaking majority of the North American Continent.' Of course, you anglophones wouldn't understand why that's so terrible :P
posted by pwnguin at 8:42 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Quebec nationalists tend to have a circle-the-wagons attitude about maintaining a separate cultural identity. The basic fear is of being overwhelmed by the surrounding anglophone culture. So it's seen as very important to stick together and rally around tradition.
There also seems to be a bit of a thread, not just in Quebec but in in global francophone thought, that says that if your family or town or whatever has been doing something in a given way for a long time, you're entitled to keep that role. If that's taken away from you, your way of life has been stolen... and, as with any other theft, you're entitled to expect the government to protect you from it.
So there are tons of laws in Quebec meant to protect the language, the culture, and people's established roles. There are other programs that are associated with the movement by historical happenstance, like having a somewhat bigger welfare state than the rest of Canada... but the driving force is the desire to avoid being assimilated.
But the thing is that Quebec really isn't in a position to go it alone. The size and political and economic power aren't there. Hell, the USA has trouble just going it alone nowadays. So the various laws and programs (and sometimes individual lack of adaptability) have serious costs when the outside world shows up. For example, when Quebec says that businesses have to operate in French, the business response is often just to leave Quebec.
This undermines the viability of approaches that people are very invested in. Worse, it does it in a way that feeds the whole fear of being overwhelmed by outsiders. Being people, nationalists often react, at least in part, by denying the limits of their power to do what they want. They make those denials both to convince others and to convince themselves. Downplaying the economic effect of policies, and especially of cultural policies, comes very naturally to anybody who's steeped in Quebec nationalist politics. Indeed, so does denying the need to adapt to any extraprovincial condition.
So Rouillard is basically casting himself and hus association as protecting the Quebec sugar tapper's right to an established form of livelihood. Which resonates with that attitude of entitlement to continue in a traditional role. And the dog whistle, if you will, is the threat that it's dangerous to you accept the idea of weakening the maple cartel, or even questioning it, based on the fact that the surrounding regions might be able to break it entirely. Because if you address that head on, you're not only not showing solidarity with other Quebequois, but you're also undermining your argument that Quebec can get away with other things with similar economic impacts... like the language laws. Which are absolutely untouchable.
posted by Hizonner at 9:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
There also seems to be a bit of a thread, not just in Quebec but in in global francophone thought, that says that if your family or town or whatever has been doing something in a given way for a long time, you're entitled to keep that role. If that's taken away from you, your way of life has been stolen... and, as with any other theft, you're entitled to expect the government to protect you from it.
So there are tons of laws in Quebec meant to protect the language, the culture, and people's established roles. There are other programs that are associated with the movement by historical happenstance, like having a somewhat bigger welfare state than the rest of Canada... but the driving force is the desire to avoid being assimilated.
But the thing is that Quebec really isn't in a position to go it alone. The size and political and economic power aren't there. Hell, the USA has trouble just going it alone nowadays. So the various laws and programs (and sometimes individual lack of adaptability) have serious costs when the outside world shows up. For example, when Quebec says that businesses have to operate in French, the business response is often just to leave Quebec.
This undermines the viability of approaches that people are very invested in. Worse, it does it in a way that feeds the whole fear of being overwhelmed by outsiders. Being people, nationalists often react, at least in part, by denying the limits of their power to do what they want. They make those denials both to convince others and to convince themselves. Downplaying the economic effect of policies, and especially of cultural policies, comes very naturally to anybody who's steeped in Quebec nationalist politics. Indeed, so does denying the need to adapt to any extraprovincial condition.
So Rouillard is basically casting himself and hus association as protecting the Quebec sugar tapper's right to an established form of livelihood. Which resonates with that attitude of entitlement to continue in a traditional role. And the dog whistle, if you will, is the threat that it's dangerous to you accept the idea of weakening the maple cartel, or even questioning it, based on the fact that the surrounding regions might be able to break it entirely. Because if you address that head on, you're not only not showing solidarity with other Quebequois, but you're also undermining your argument that Quebec can get away with other things with similar economic impacts... like the language laws. Which are absolutely untouchable.
posted by Hizonner at 9:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
As this is a Financial Post story, you also have to filter for the libertarian "REGULATIONS BAD" attitude.
posted by scruss at 9:23 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by scruss at 9:23 AM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of that Planet Money story a little while back about the Swiss cheese cartel. Based on my n=2 study, I conclude that non-Anglophones ARE more susceptible to engaging in this type of anti-competitive behavior.
posted by droro at 9:29 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by droro at 9:29 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's more fair to say that there are multiple approaches to how these things are decided. Quebec isn't the same socio-economic context as the rest of Canada, and both of those are also different again from either the US or the EU/EC.
posted by bonehead at 9:37 AM on April 29, 2015
posted by bonehead at 9:37 AM on April 29, 2015
What I'm wondering about is how the hell this is legal under the various international free trade agreements Canada is part to.
posted by MartinWisse at 9:37 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 9:37 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I'm wondering about is how the hell this is legal under the various international free trade agreements Canada is part to.
Based on how long the softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the US dragged on, there may be reluctance among the prevailing maple syrup powers to open such a can of worms. So I guess it's good to be a maple syrup rentier state.
Another example of how Quebec politics can affect an economic/export policy, is the asbestos industry in Quebec. Until very recently, both the federal government and Quebec government propped up operations at the last asbestos mine in Canada, to our everlasting shame:
As recently as 2010, Canada was producing 150,000 tonnes of asbestos annually, all of it in Quebec, and exporting 90 per cent — worth about $90 million — to developing countries.
More than 50 countries ban the mining and use of asbestos because it causes cancer, but Canada, traditionally a major exporter, has successfully lobbied in the past to keep it off a UN list of hazardous substances.
Yes, there's a town called Asbestos. I like that the first link on the page is for the "SERVICE INCENDIE D'ASBESTOS." That's the "Asbestos Fire Department."
I guess that's irony in the Alanis Morissette sense?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:50 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Based on how long the softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the US dragged on, there may be reluctance among the prevailing maple syrup powers to open such a can of worms. So I guess it's good to be a maple syrup rentier state.
Another example of how Quebec politics can affect an economic/export policy, is the asbestos industry in Quebec. Until very recently, both the federal government and Quebec government propped up operations at the last asbestos mine in Canada, to our everlasting shame:
As recently as 2010, Canada was producing 150,000 tonnes of asbestos annually, all of it in Quebec, and exporting 90 per cent — worth about $90 million — to developing countries.
More than 50 countries ban the mining and use of asbestos because it causes cancer, but Canada, traditionally a major exporter, has successfully lobbied in the past to keep it off a UN list of hazardous substances.
Yes, there's a town called Asbestos. I like that the first link on the page is for the "SERVICE INCENDIE D'ASBESTOS." That's the "Asbestos Fire Department."
I guess that's irony in the Alanis Morissette sense?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:50 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
So Rouillard is basically casting himself and hus association as protecting the Quebec sugar tapper's right to an established form of livelihood. Which resonates with that attitude of entitlement to continue in a traditional role.
I think you're absolutely right in the psychology of this comment, but the project isn't supporting that:
posted by bonehead at 9:51 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think you're absolutely right in the psychology of this comment, but the project isn't supporting that:
Quebec has lost many mid-sized commercial maple syrup farms, many of those too small to build viable economies of scale, and that produce too much to sell direct. If one of the cartel's strategic intents was to support all farmers equally, it has failed miserably.IOW, the cartel has had the effect of allowing the big operations to get bigger while killing off small and mid-size sucreries, and also has inhibited new operations from joining the cartel. I think disappointment in the cartel over these sorts of issues is at the heart of the tensions described in the article.
In addition, cartels tend to serve those already connected to the system. Once it is established, the chances of others gaining access is nearly impossible; as a result, entrepreneurs who may have an interest in producing maple syrup and who may have innovative ideas are often out of luck. It is the same phenomena with supply management in dairy and poultry.
posted by bonehead at 9:51 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, one would think that this would be a trade barrier and go against interprovincial and international trade rules. But judging from the Quebec margarine war of the previous decade, there must be a powerful alternate producer like Unilever interested in overturning the status quo for anything to happen. I don't think there is such a producer in the maple syrup market, at least not yet.
posted by Triplanetary at 10:11 AM on April 29, 2015
posted by Triplanetary at 10:11 AM on April 29, 2015
Also, before anyone thinks this is a weird French statist cartel that would never be allowed in the freedom-loving US, check out Planet Money's excellent 5min story on the Raisin Administrative Committee.
posted by Triplanetary at 10:16 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Triplanetary at 10:16 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or look at the protections on US sugar production. Even companies like Coke and Pepsi aren't big enough to get around it.
posted by bonehead at 10:19 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 10:19 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
But judging from the Quebec margarine war of the previous decade
Slippery business, that.
Sorry. I had to.
Even Ontario repealed its Oleomargarine Act back in 1995. Until then, it was technically illegal for companies to make or sell margarine that was coloured yellow, making it look suspiciously like butter. With that law on the books, no one had ever been charged with trafficking in butter-coloured margarine.
But seriously, even before that repeal in Ontario, you could buy yellow margarine. But as my mom tells it (and this is probably the reason why butter, and NEVER margarine was in our fridge) when she was a kid in Ontario, her parents bought tubs of margarine that contained a.) the white margarine and b.) an accompanying packet of yellow dye. You mixed in the yellow dye yourself, and voila, yellow margarine and nobody was breaking any laws.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:26 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Slippery business, that.
Sorry. I had to.
Even Ontario repealed its Oleomargarine Act back in 1995. Until then, it was technically illegal for companies to make or sell margarine that was coloured yellow, making it look suspiciously like butter. With that law on the books, no one had ever been charged with trafficking in butter-coloured margarine.
But seriously, even before that repeal in Ontario, you could buy yellow margarine. But as my mom tells it (and this is probably the reason why butter, and NEVER margarine was in our fridge) when she was a kid in Ontario, her parents bought tubs of margarine that contained a.) the white margarine and b.) an accompanying packet of yellow dye. You mixed in the yellow dye yourself, and voila, yellow margarine and nobody was breaking any laws.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:26 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you're absolutely right in the psychology of this comment, but the project isn't supporting that:
I don't mean to claim that it actually is protecting anybody's traditional livelihood. Or even that maple syrup pricing really has much to do with Quebec nationalism at all. And I'm definitely not saying that these agricultural cartels are in any way unique to Quebec or francophones, because they are totally not.
I was just trying to explain why Rouillard would want to hitch his wagon to those solidarity and autonomy concerns, given that he's operating in rural Quebec where nationalism is pretty dominant.
posted by Hizonner at 10:33 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
This talk of Quebec and food made this F.R. Scott poem pop into my head. I'll just leave it here:
Bonne Ententeposted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:49 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The advantages of living with two cultures
Strike one at every turn,
Especially when one finds a notice in an office building:
"This elevator will not run on Ascension Day;"
Or reads in the Montreal Star:
"Tomorrow being the feast of the Immaculate Conception,
There will be no collection of garbage in the city";
Or sees on the restaurant menu the bilingual dish:
DEEP APPLE PIE
TARTE AUX POMMES PROFONDES
The margarine thing seems bizarre, given the number of different ways it's apparently possible to make margarine. I wouldn't care about color but I could go for margarine made with trans-fats being required to have skull-and-crossbones printed all over the packaging.
posted by XMLicious at 11:03 AM on April 29, 2015
posted by XMLicious at 11:03 AM on April 29, 2015
My dad has been running a sugar bush for our hometown school system for nearly 30 years now. I spent a good chunk of my childhood springtimes helping him haul buckets and boil down sap. For Christmas this year, he sent me a kit with three buckets. I tapped the two trees in my front yard (neither is especially large) and ended up with 80+ liters of sap within a few weeks.
Due to job and vacation constraints I had time to boil down only a small fraction of it, so only scored about a pint and a half of syrup, but heck... a pint and a half for free is better than shelling out to the cartel. Why buy it if you have time to make it? Even a small urban yard like mine could conceivably generate 2 liters of syrup a year, easily (yield is 1/40th of your starting volume). That's a lot of syrup. Maybe next year I'll do better, but I survived my rookie season.
I still haven't washed the buckets though. Eeesh.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:19 PM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Due to job and vacation constraints I had time to boil down only a small fraction of it, so only scored about a pint and a half of syrup, but heck... a pint and a half for free is better than shelling out to the cartel. Why buy it if you have time to make it? Even a small urban yard like mine could conceivably generate 2 liters of syrup a year, easily (yield is 1/40th of your starting volume). That's a lot of syrup. Maybe next year I'll do better, but I survived my rookie season.
I still haven't washed the buckets though. Eeesh.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:19 PM on April 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
I remember a lot of margarine in Ontario that was dyed a hideous unnatural orange. As a kid it always reminded me of giant tubs of earwax.
Ever since I moved out, I have only had butter in my house.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:51 PM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ever since I moved out, I have only had butter in my house.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:51 PM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
2 liters isn't much syrup! I used to go through that in two months! I use it more than I do white sugar. Infinitely more than I do corn syrup. Best. Sugar. Ever.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:05 PM on April 29, 2015
posted by five fresh fish at 2:05 PM on April 29, 2015
Well, 2 l isn't that much syrup, yes, but 80 l is a lot of sap. I couldn't boil it all this year because unlike my dad I don't have a king mattress-sized boiling pan in a dedicated sugar shack... just a (now blackened) pot thrown on my backyard fire pit. Next year I need to boil it as I collect it.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:26 PM on April 29, 2015
posted by caution live frogs at 2:26 PM on April 29, 2015
Does boiling sap - getting it higher than 98'C - mediate a particular chemical reaction that gives syrup the qualities that it's prized for?
Otherwise, wouldn't vacuum concentration be a much lower hassle, little oversight, always-on add-on to the reverse osmosis system that raises sugar content from 2% to 12%?
The thing about suction harvesting through saplings makes me think of a robot drinking water from the soil using sugar maple saplings as straws. I suspect that there are taste differences between juvenile and mature trees (different phytochemical profile being produced), and more importantly the profile of those phytochemicals coming out of sap from trees growing at a baseline rate compared to trees who are being used as straws by the red faced robot sucking as furiously as it can.
Lots of fine tuning the draw-rate.
posted by porpoise at 6:58 PM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Otherwise, wouldn't vacuum concentration be a much lower hassle, little oversight, always-on add-on to the reverse osmosis system that raises sugar content from 2% to 12%?
The thing about suction harvesting through saplings makes me think of a robot drinking water from the soil using sugar maple saplings as straws. I suspect that there are taste differences between juvenile and mature trees (different phytochemical profile being produced), and more importantly the profile of those phytochemicals coming out of sap from trees growing at a baseline rate compared to trees who are being used as straws by the red faced robot sucking as furiously as it can.
Lots of fine tuning the draw-rate.
posted by porpoise at 6:58 PM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sugars don't start to caramelize until at least 120C (250F), so rotovaping at higher temperatures would be possible. Rotovaps are still batch processes though. It's not really suitable for larger volumes. Besides, they're expensive. A mid size rotovap (20L nominal, about 5L per batch) runs around $40k Canadian---I priced one last fall.
RO systems solve both problems. They're flow through, so are rate rather than batch limited. The incremental costs are probably on the order of a couple thousand or so per season for new filters and membranes. We get about 5-6 years out of our systems in the lab, but I imagine commercial operators go through them more frequently.
posted by bonehead at 8:07 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
RO systems solve both problems. They're flow through, so are rate rather than batch limited. The incremental costs are probably on the order of a couple thousand or so per season for new filters and membranes. We get about 5-6 years out of our systems in the lab, but I imagine commercial operators go through them more frequently.
posted by bonehead at 8:07 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I'm definitely not saying that these agricultural cartels are in any way unique to Quebec or francophones, because they are totally not.
For instance, Western Australia has a Potato Marketing Board, which will fine farmers that try to sell more than their allotted quota. Of course, Western Australia does threaten to secede from the Australian Federation from time to time, and also has a weird chip on it's shoulder about the rest of the country,
posted by Hello, I'm David McGahan at 2:03 AM on April 30, 2015
For instance, Western Australia has a Potato Marketing Board, which will fine farmers that try to sell more than their allotted quota. Of course, Western Australia does threaten to secede from the Australian Federation from time to time, and also has a weird chip on it's shoulder about the rest of the country,
posted by Hello, I'm David McGahan at 2:03 AM on April 30, 2015
All the supermarkets around here seem to be selling that stamped on shit that's cut to hell with corn.
⌘ - F "costco"... Wow, really?
Because yea, like a lot of things costco basically sells you the maximum quality you'd actually need of it in a big(but unlike some other items not too big) container for an ok price.
I'm probably committing some kind of sacrilege here, but above a certain level of quality i think it's kind of pointless with maple syrup. It's like a lot of liquor. There's bottom shelf and bargain basement garbage, mid level stuff that's ok i guess... but once you get to the upper mid level there's plenty of stuff that's actually great and everything above that is massively diminishing returns that feels a lot more like dick waving than a real quality improvement.
Like gonzo-fancy honey, if you have the real stuff and not some corn syrup cut BS fake you're pretty much 90% of the way there. And this is coming from someone whose done a lot of taste tests of the fancy (f)artisanal stuff at farmers markets and such.
posted by emptythought at 3:28 AM on April 30, 2015
⌘ - F "costco"... Wow, really?
Because yea, like a lot of things costco basically sells you the maximum quality you'd actually need of it in a big(but unlike some other items not too big) container for an ok price.
I'm probably committing some kind of sacrilege here, but above a certain level of quality i think it's kind of pointless with maple syrup. It's like a lot of liquor. There's bottom shelf and bargain basement garbage, mid level stuff that's ok i guess... but once you get to the upper mid level there's plenty of stuff that's actually great and everything above that is massively diminishing returns that feels a lot more like dick waving than a real quality improvement.
Like gonzo-fancy honey, if you have the real stuff and not some corn syrup cut BS fake you're pretty much 90% of the way there. And this is coming from someone whose done a lot of taste tests of the fancy (f)artisanal stuff at farmers markets and such.
posted by emptythought at 3:28 AM on April 30, 2015
"Otherwise, wouldn't vacuum concentration be a much lower hassle, little oversight, always-on add-on to the reverse osmosis system that raises sugar content from 2% to 12%?"
Modern sugar shacks already do that, the sap is concentrated using reverse osmosis up to a higher % of sugar content and is then boiled (the boiling is necessary to develop the taste of maple syrup). This is done to save on energy costs (boiling takes a lot of energy).
Younger trees aren't tapped but AFAIK this because the trunk isn't big enough and tapping it at a young age would hinder future syrup production because every time you tap a tree you leave kind of a scar in it that is a few inch wide/high and you can't tap close to that anymore. And too many scars will limit the amount of sap you can get (and probably hurt the tree too).
posted by coust at 10:05 AM on April 30, 2015
Modern sugar shacks already do that, the sap is concentrated using reverse osmosis up to a higher % of sugar content and is then boiled (the boiling is necessary to develop the taste of maple syrup). This is done to save on energy costs (boiling takes a lot of energy).
Younger trees aren't tapped but AFAIK this because the trunk isn't big enough and tapping it at a young age would hinder future syrup production because every time you tap a tree you leave kind of a scar in it that is a few inch wide/high and you can't tap close to that anymore. And too many scars will limit the amount of sap you can get (and probably hurt the tree too).
posted by coust at 10:05 AM on April 30, 2015
I moved from Quebec to Alberta, and went from getting 500ml cans for $5 from whoever had an uncle with a shack to paying $18. It got to be so that whenever someone visited they'd have to bring a few cans with them. Now we just order by the case online, comes closer to $8 a can, and we go through about 8-10 cans a year.
A neighbour also gets family to bring syrup, her mom got stopped at the airport because her luggage was too heavy, and when the attendant saw that it was maple syrup and she explained why the attendant just let her go without charging for the extra weight.
posted by furtive at 8:03 PM on April 30, 2015
A neighbour also gets family to bring syrup, her mom got stopped at the airport because her luggage was too heavy, and when the attendant saw that it was maple syrup and she explained why the attendant just let her go without charging for the extra weight.
posted by furtive at 8:03 PM on April 30, 2015
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I'm slightly sympathetic to the goals of the cartel, but like many things Québécois its willful ignorance of economics seems likely to lead to future failure.
posted by Slothrup at 6:58 AM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]