"... a kind of purgatory-themed amusement park"
April 30, 2015 9:13 AM Subscribe
"ICP's intense work ethic and preparation have been essential to their ascension from a second-tier Detroit rap group into the leaders of their own subculture—a feat accomplished by virtually no other group in popular American music, save for maybe the Grateful Dead." Tears of a clown
ICP and Juggalo culture, previously on MeFi.
ICP and Juggalo culture, previously on MeFi.
*fucks your mom, your mom's mama, the Beastie Boys and the Dalai Lama*
posted by jonmc at 9:48 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 9:48 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Nathan Rabin married one, so they can't be all bad.
posted by ostranenie at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by ostranenie at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015
It's like Bizzaro-world Dad advice: "Work hard son and you too can someday be on top of an Insane Clown hip-hop empire."
posted by GuyZero at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
son i am disappoint
posted by ostranenie at 10:04 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ostranenie at 10:04 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think I've seen much juggalo culture in Canada. Not sure it really crossed the border. The article makes them sound like good enough folks, but man that music and those rhymes just aren't very good.
posted by Hoopo at 10:22 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by Hoopo at 10:22 AM on April 30, 2015
In all honesty I think I've enjoyed more ICP music than I have the Greatful Dead. At least their songs end at some point.
posted by lattiboy at 10:50 AM on April 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by lattiboy at 10:50 AM on April 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
It's interesting that an article about ICP that's more positive than one normally encounters has almost nothing to say about their music.
posted by layceepee at 10:54 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by layceepee at 10:54 AM on April 30, 2015
I've seen a few ICP shirts in Toronto and once or twice a couple of likely juggalo's in full clown makeup but I'd agree that it's not really something that has translated well up here. I'm pretty sure they've never played in Canada so that might have something to do with it.
I would argue that other bands have effectively created their own subcultures, say Marilyn Manson or hell even the Beatles. The thing that makes ICP different is the their longevity combined with the crazyness.
That said it's really a very small fandom all things said. It's just a very vocal, devoted and noticeable one.
posted by cirhosis at 10:58 AM on April 30, 2015
I would argue that other bands have effectively created their own subcultures, say Marilyn Manson or hell even the Beatles. The thing that makes ICP different is the their longevity combined with the crazyness.
That said it's really a very small fandom all things said. It's just a very vocal, devoted and noticeable one.
posted by cirhosis at 10:58 AM on April 30, 2015
Probably worth checking out the tangentially-related article on the Sausage Castle. I mean, I found it worth a read.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:01 AM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:01 AM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
ascension from a second-tier Detroit rap group into the leaders of their own subculture—a feat accomplished by virtually no other group in popular American music, save for maybe the Grateful Dead.
Yes, I remember back when the Grateful Dead were a second-tier Detroit rap group. Strange times, kids. You had to be there.
posted by Wolfdog at 11:14 AM on April 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
Yes, I remember back when the Grateful Dead were a second-tier Detroit rap group. Strange times, kids. You had to be there.
posted by Wolfdog at 11:14 AM on April 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
Awesome piece, totally respectful, decent and kind. Thank you for posting it. I'd recommend that anyone who digs the FPP should check out Nathan Rabin's interview with Violent J.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Overt hatred for ICP and their fans is classism boiled down to its purest form and made palatable to people who otherwise claim to know better. Like, I get it, OK? I completely understand why people loathe their music, even their whole vibe. They're frank misogynists who spit clumsy rhymes about gleefully murdering rich people (and racists, and pedophiles, and...), they paint their faces like evil clowns, they pour soda on themselves and others, it's gross and alienating and even willfully dumb.
But if you're sitting there with your masters degree and your desk jockey job and your iPad getting all, "What in the everliving fuck is this nonsense? I went to college, I grew up middle-class, I had a decent family of origin, I turned out fine and I hate this monstrous noise, as all right-thinking people should. So what the shit are these weirdos doing and why?" Then I need to point out that the juggalo family is for people who don't have any other family. It's for poor and dirty people, it's for losers, it's for the people everyone you made fun of in high school made fun of, it's for the bottom rung. So there's a mostly-unspoken bond between ICP fans that is impossible to know or understand from the outside, and even though I can already see you sneering at your screen because you're so much better and smarter than that, you're worse off for missing out, believe me.
I'm a decade+ removed from my cross-country roadtripping days but I'll never forget the positively radical kindness that rained down like so much Faygo from juggalos all and sundry when I was in the thick of it in the early aughts. Anything you needed, someone would make sure you got it. Complete strangers would work tirelessly to bring you to the next show because they knew how much you needed to be there. I once slept in a trailer parked in the middle of a field in rural Indiana where the only place to relieve yourself was a 5-gallon bucket parked in the corner, but the dude who called that place home still managed to scrounge up some snacks and gas money so we could all pile back into some other dude's minivan and hit the road bound for Detroit. There was nowhere else we felt safe, nowhere else that felt like home. I've been to a million and one indie rock and indie rap gigs but I've never been anywhere like a Psychopathic show.
So I'm forever thankful to these dudes and their crew. I'll never be able to adequately explain or express what it's like to be part of the fam, but every time some random juggalo spots my hatchet man tattoo, we'll always give each other The Nod (and occasionally The "Whoop! Whoop!") and it still feels great. I will happily invite any MeFite to come see them with me anytime, with the caveat that you must first don the requisite accoutrements of our people -- namely, face paint and a 2-liter of Moon Mist.
MMFCL.
posted by divined by radio at 11:19 AM on April 30, 2015 [102 favorites]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Overt hatred for ICP and their fans is classism boiled down to its purest form and made palatable to people who otherwise claim to know better. Like, I get it, OK? I completely understand why people loathe their music, even their whole vibe. They're frank misogynists who spit clumsy rhymes about gleefully murdering rich people (and racists, and pedophiles, and...), they paint their faces like evil clowns, they pour soda on themselves and others, it's gross and alienating and even willfully dumb.
But if you're sitting there with your masters degree and your desk jockey job and your iPad getting all, "What in the everliving fuck is this nonsense? I went to college, I grew up middle-class, I had a decent family of origin, I turned out fine and I hate this monstrous noise, as all right-thinking people should. So what the shit are these weirdos doing and why?" Then I need to point out that the juggalo family is for people who don't have any other family. It's for poor and dirty people, it's for losers, it's for the people everyone you made fun of in high school made fun of, it's for the bottom rung. So there's a mostly-unspoken bond between ICP fans that is impossible to know or understand from the outside, and even though I can already see you sneering at your screen because you're so much better and smarter than that, you're worse off for missing out, believe me.
I'm a decade+ removed from my cross-country roadtripping days but I'll never forget the positively radical kindness that rained down like so much Faygo from juggalos all and sundry when I was in the thick of it in the early aughts. Anything you needed, someone would make sure you got it. Complete strangers would work tirelessly to bring you to the next show because they knew how much you needed to be there. I once slept in a trailer parked in the middle of a field in rural Indiana where the only place to relieve yourself was a 5-gallon bucket parked in the corner, but the dude who called that place home still managed to scrounge up some snacks and gas money so we could all pile back into some other dude's minivan and hit the road bound for Detroit. There was nowhere else we felt safe, nowhere else that felt like home. I've been to a million and one indie rock and indie rap gigs but I've never been anywhere like a Psychopathic show.
So I'm forever thankful to these dudes and their crew. I'll never be able to adequately explain or express what it's like to be part of the fam, but every time some random juggalo spots my hatchet man tattoo, we'll always give each other The Nod (and occasionally The "Whoop! Whoop!") and it still feels great. I will happily invite any MeFite to come see them with me anytime, with the caveat that you must first don the requisite accoutrements of our people -- namely, face paint and a 2-liter of Moon Mist.
MMFCL.
posted by divined by radio at 11:19 AM on April 30, 2015 [102 favorites]
I've seen a few ICP shirts in Toronto and once or twice a couple of likely juggalo's in full clown makeup but I'd agree that it's not really something that has translated well up here.
Their movement sounds like something that you need lack of an effective social safety net to create in bulk. It's not that Canada doesn't treat some of its people shittily (and get ICP-like musical calls for unity as a result), but not in the numbers that the US does.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Their movement sounds like something that you need lack of an effective social safety net to create in bulk. It's not that Canada doesn't treat some of its people shittily (and get ICP-like musical calls for unity as a result), but not in the numbers that the US does.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think of them as being the Kevin Smith of music: They've had a large enough fan base for long enough that most people know about them, and the people who like them at all at this point really like them, but the whole thing leaves most of us bewildered.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:25 AM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:25 AM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Overt hatred for ICP and their fans is classism boiled down to its purest form and made palatable to people who otherwise claim to know better.
For sure. I don't like them, but I don't hate them. I think they're crazy, but whatever.
But per the comments about Canada I think a definite element is that there's a group of very poor mostly white people from the US midwest that makes up the ICP fan base that doesn't exist the same way in Canada for a bunch of reasons. Its neither here nor there but ICP is very definitely a very American thing.
I think the awesomest thing about Juggalos is that they seem to make a really big effort to make it a strangely positive movement. It's the kind of vibe that could very easily be xenophobic or racist or something really terrible but instead it's about overcoming abuse and supporting each other. Whether it's sincere or carefully calculated by ICP to keep their shows from getting shut down by cops and moral crusaders, the core of ICP isn't what you might expect by looking at the surface.
posted by GuyZero at 12:00 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
For sure. I don't like them, but I don't hate them. I think they're crazy, but whatever.
But per the comments about Canada I think a definite element is that there's a group of very poor mostly white people from the US midwest that makes up the ICP fan base that doesn't exist the same way in Canada for a bunch of reasons. Its neither here nor there but ICP is very definitely a very American thing.
I think the awesomest thing about Juggalos is that they seem to make a really big effort to make it a strangely positive movement. It's the kind of vibe that could very easily be xenophobic or racist or something really terrible but instead it's about overcoming abuse and supporting each other. Whether it's sincere or carefully calculated by ICP to keep their shows from getting shut down by cops and moral crusaders, the core of ICP isn't what you might expect by looking at the surface.
posted by GuyZero at 12:00 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Out of respect for divined by radio's excellent commentary, I'll have to change Sloan's lyrics to:
It's not the fans I hate it's their band
I'll never get it for sure, but I'm happy to hear that it's been a positive experience for it's members.
posted by cirhosis at 12:04 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's not the fans I hate it's their band
I'll never get it for sure, but I'm happy to hear that it's been a positive experience for it's members.
posted by cirhosis at 12:04 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
With apologies to TS Eliot.
Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like Hatchet Man upon on a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The whoop-whoop retreats
Of restless nights in one-night weak hotels
And Faygo fights, Moon Mist, smells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of psychopathic intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question….
Oh, do not ask, “What up, killa?”
Let us go and make our skrilla.
In the room the ninjas come and go
Talking of the Juggalos.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like Hatchet Man upon on a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The whoop-whoop retreats
Of restless nights in one-night weak hotels
And Faygo fights, Moon Mist, smells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of psychopathic intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question….
Oh, do not ask, “What up, killa?”
Let us go and make our skrilla.
In the room the ninjas come and go
Talking of the Juggalos.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
What did the Grateful Dead fan say when they ran out of drugs?
posted by 7segment at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by 7segment at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015
I have wanted to go for a couple years now, but I have never in my life wanted to go to the Gathering more than I do right now.
posted by Poppa Bear at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Poppa Bear at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015
Rapturous ICP fans writhed together in their soda sacrament, yelping "whoop whoop," while Violent J, Shaggy 2 Dope, and their brood of cryptic clown dancers ran circles around the stage with the kind of swagger you can only learn in America's worst public schools.
I think this one sentence says it all.
posted by tommasz at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this one sentence says it all.
posted by tommasz at 12:09 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've seen a few ICP shirts in Toronto and once or twice a couple of likely juggalo's in full clown makeup but I'd agree that it's not really something that has translated well up here.
You know, I can fully see Rob Ford being down with the clown. They're melancholy, those roads not taken.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
You know, I can fully see Rob Ford being down with the clown. They're melancholy, those roads not taken.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
From the article:
Downtown Detroit looks like Baghdad with snow.
As someone who used to live right across the river from Detroit, and visited frequently: Uh, no. Not really.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:32 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Downtown Detroit looks like Baghdad with snow.
As someone who used to live right across the river from Detroit, and visited frequently: Uh, no. Not really.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:32 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Their movement sounds like something that you need lack of an effective social safety net to create in bulk.
Everything I have read about them (including divined by radio's great comment above) has painted the movement as a surrogate safety net for those who have none, so I think this is probably true. Sadly, in America, if you aren't rich and you have no one, you are no one.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:53 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Everything I have read about them (including divined by radio's great comment above) has painted the movement as a surrogate safety net for those who have none, so I think this is probably true. Sadly, in America, if you aren't rich and you have no one, you are no one.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:53 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, it makes sense that their albums have para-religious themes, because they're obviously a peasant religious movement, and you could place them in line with the medieval heretics or the followers of Thomas Muntzer, by which I mean a (not without flaws) roughly communistic movement for the dispossessed which tries to articulate meaning for the lives of the totally disregarded and carries an apocalyptic vision of justice. Probably Thomas Muntzer's people looked just as crazy, dirty, etc, at least if everything I've read about them is any indication. (There's enough surplus in the economy that the juggalos seem unlikely to evolve into an actual peasant army, of course.)
Between this thread and the Freddie Gray/but-what-about-the-looters thread, I find myself reflecting that middle class people (including me) tend not to have a really firm grasp on the reality of working class social upheaval and social movements. We tend to have this sort of 1920s-IWW-cosplay mentality, and the actual thing tends to be a bit of a slap in the face.
posted by Frowner at 1:19 PM on April 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
Between this thread and the Freddie Gray/but-what-about-the-looters thread, I find myself reflecting that middle class people (including me) tend not to have a really firm grasp on the reality of working class social upheaval and social movements. We tend to have this sort of 1920s-IWW-cosplay mentality, and the actual thing tends to be a bit of a slap in the face.
posted by Frowner at 1:19 PM on April 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
The Grateful Dead are an interesting comparison. In both cases I definitely get the appeal of the surrounding community a lot more than I get the appeal of the music. A lot of Deadheads take the music really seriously though - and they've got a few songs that even I will recognize as great. I'm sure many Juggalos do too - ICP's got some songs I recognize as (intentionally) funny - but even divined by radio's excellent tribute doesn't get into it. Divined you have any recommendations? I'm completely serious.
Anyway the Dead of course got their magic tapping into something that was already happening - they were there at the very beginning of the hippie movement. Whereas ICP seem basically to have discovered an audience that wasn't really being addressed by anything else.
posted by atoxyl at 1:35 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anyway the Dead of course got their magic tapping into something that was already happening - they were there at the very beginning of the hippie movement. Whereas ICP seem basically to have discovered an audience that wasn't really being addressed by anything else.
posted by atoxyl at 1:35 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Just as a clarifying point, too, I admire communist peasant religious movements like all get out. My point isn't "oh, look at this quaint JesusInFacepaint proletarian phenomenon".)
posted by Frowner at 1:37 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Frowner at 1:37 PM on April 30, 2015
Yeah, de gustibus and all, but a religio-communist peasant movement motivated by an apocalyptic vision of justice sounds about as appealing as sitting down to listen to an ICP record. When it comes to communist utopias, I prefer my justice secular, my mise-en-scène Morris, and my score acid folk.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:52 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by octobersurprise at 1:52 PM on April 30, 2015
Yeah, de gustibus and all, but a religio-communist peasant movement motivated by an apocalyptic vision of justice sounds about as appealing as sitting down to listen to an ICP record. When it comes to communist utopias, I prefer my justice secular, my mise-en-scène Morris, and my score acid folk.
#Stuff Middle Class People Who Will Never Need Or Make A Single Step Towards Actualizing A Communist Utopia But Sometimes Like To Daydream About It Like Or At Least Find Acceptable Not Like This Actual Working Class Or Even Lower On The Socioeconomic Scale Trash I Mean Come On Thats Not Culture
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:08 PM on April 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
#Stuff Middle Class People Who Will Never Need Or Make A Single Step Towards Actualizing A Communist Utopia But Sometimes Like To Daydream About It Like Or At Least Find Acceptable Not Like This Actual Working Class Or Even Lower On The Socioeconomic Scale Trash I Mean Come On Thats Not Culture
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:08 PM on April 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yeah, de gustibus and all, but a religio-communist peasant movement motivated by an apocalyptic vision of justice sounds about as appealing as sitting down to listen to an ICP record. When it comes to communist utopias, I prefer my justice secular, my mise-en-scène Morris, and my score acid folk.
And my guess is that you are neither of a social/cultural background where people tend to become juggalos nor a German peasant in 1524. So of course you prefer Morris (the patterns, I assume, rather than the chairs, the dance, the cat or the car) and acid folk. That's the whole point - life puts you in a position where standing up to a bunch of fully-armored landsknecht with nothing but a sickle and a couple of days of combat practice sounds like a pretty attractive option precisely because of who you are, not because you have failed to maintain stringent enough aesthetic standards.
The point isn't that communist peasant movements are ipso facto great and wonderful and no one ever says a dumb thing or puts a foot wrong, either; Thomas Muntzer was, to me, a raving nutter who betrayed his people through inexcusable fucking stupidity. It's just that people who are relatively secure in the world have a bunch of fantasies about how people who are not secure live and ought to live, and as a result it's difficult to even approach understanding what's in front of us.
posted by Frowner at 2:11 PM on April 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
I usually skip articles about ICP and Juggalos, because they are almost invariably stories of the point-and-laugh variety. It was refreshing to read something that put a humanizing face on these guys.
posted by KGMoney at 2:12 PM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by KGMoney at 2:12 PM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Some years ago I was taking Amtrak from the Bay Area down to Fresno, and ended up sitting across from a couple of young women who were dressed to shock Central Valley sensibilities. They introduced themselves as Juggalos, and after a few exchanges it was plain that I may have been a clean cut upper middle class white guy but I wasn't so easily shocked as that, and we had a great conversation.
This article nicely ties that conversation together. That sense of family, of finding a community from broken childhoods and broken homes, yeah, that's exactly what they expressed. It's punk, but with an aspirational aesthetic rather than a "tear all that shit down" aesthetic.
Sure, it's not mine, but if it offends me, that's the point: The best way to make sure it doesn't propagate is to make sure kids have better parenting.
posted by straw at 2:20 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
This article nicely ties that conversation together. That sense of family, of finding a community from broken childhoods and broken homes, yeah, that's exactly what they expressed. It's punk, but with an aspirational aesthetic rather than a "tear all that shit down" aesthetic.
Sure, it's not mine, but if it offends me, that's the point: The best way to make sure it doesn't propagate is to make sure kids have better parenting.
posted by straw at 2:20 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
...you could place them in line with the medieval heretics or the followers of Thomas Muntzer, by which I mean a (not without flaws) roughly communistic movement for the dispossessed which tries to articulate meaning for the lives of the totally disregarded and carries an apocalyptic vision of justice. Probably Thomas Muntzer's people looked just as crazy, dirty, etc, at least if everything I've read about them is any indication. (There's enough surplus in the economy that the juggalos seem unlikely to evolve into an actual peasant army, of course.)
Between this thread and the Freddie Gray/but-what-about-the-looters thread, I find myself reflecting that middle class people (including me) tend not to have a really firm grasp on the reality of working class social upheaval and social movements. We tend to have this sort of 1920s-IWW-cosplay mentality, and the actual thing tends to be a bit of a slap in the face.
along with the prejudice that there are no organic right-wing populist movements.
The ICP stand for a basically conservative christian religiosity, traditional gender roles filtered through a kind of manic madonna/whore complex, a lot of consumer product fetish worship and in the end are about moving ICP product to a captured market segment. Hating rich people doesn't make you communistic.
Like you said, it's pretty sobering for the erstwhile left-winger to imagine what a populist social revolution would look like in the US because that revolution would be thoroughly right-wing.
posted by ennui.bz at 2:27 PM on April 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
Between this thread and the Freddie Gray/but-what-about-the-looters thread, I find myself reflecting that middle class people (including me) tend not to have a really firm grasp on the reality of working class social upheaval and social movements. We tend to have this sort of 1920s-IWW-cosplay mentality, and the actual thing tends to be a bit of a slap in the face.
along with the prejudice that there are no organic right-wing populist movements.
The ICP stand for a basically conservative christian religiosity, traditional gender roles filtered through a kind of manic madonna/whore complex, a lot of consumer product fetish worship and in the end are about moving ICP product to a captured market segment. Hating rich people doesn't make you communistic.
Like you said, it's pretty sobering for the erstwhile left-winger to imagine what a populist social revolution would look like in the US because that revolution would be thoroughly right-wing.
posted by ennui.bz at 2:27 PM on April 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
standing up to a bunch of fully-armored landsknecht with nothing but a sickle and a couple of days of combat practice
I noted this in some other thread, but it's worth saying again here: peasant rebellions almost always turn out extremely poorly for the rebellious. People here tend to go on and on about the rich needing to understand that providing for society is what keeps them secure, but at least in terms of the lower classes, that's just true, historically. Let this tidbit from Wikipedia on Muntzer's own Battle of Frankenhausen serve as an object lesson: "Casualty figures are unreliable but peasant losses have been estimated at 3-10,000 and the Landsknecht casualties estimated as low as six (two of whom were only wounded)."
Peasants don't know how to fight. Fighting is hard, and killing is hard, for most people.
a populist social revolution...in the US...would be thoroughly right-wing
Probably, and probably also thoroughly middle class.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:41 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I noted this in some other thread, but it's worth saying again here: peasant rebellions almost always turn out extremely poorly for the rebellious. People here tend to go on and on about the rich needing to understand that providing for society is what keeps them secure, but at least in terms of the lower classes, that's just true, historically. Let this tidbit from Wikipedia on Muntzer's own Battle of Frankenhausen serve as an object lesson: "Casualty figures are unreliable but peasant losses have been estimated at 3-10,000 and the Landsknecht casualties estimated as low as six (two of whom were only wounded)."
Peasants don't know how to fight. Fighting is hard, and killing is hard, for most people.
a populist social revolution...in the US...would be thoroughly right-wing
Probably, and probably also thoroughly middle class.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:41 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Their movement sounds like something that you need lack of an effective social safety net to create in bulk
I gather what we have here is probably considered an upgrade on what the US has, but it's worth pointing out there's still a lot of room for people to fall through the cracks. The stories in this article happen in Canada too.
posted by Hoopo at 2:48 PM on April 30, 2015
I gather what we have here is probably considered an upgrade on what the US has, but it's worth pointing out there's still a lot of room for people to fall through the cracks. The stories in this article happen in Canada too.
posted by Hoopo at 2:48 PM on April 30, 2015
The ICP stand for a basically conservative christian religiosity, traditional gender roles filtered through a kind of manic madonna/whore complex, a lot of consumer product fetish worship and in the end are about moving ICP product to a captured market segment. Hating rich people doesn't make you communistic.
A hundred times this. I think it's sort of ironic to read people in this thread calling out middle-class posters for idealizing working-class movements in the same breath that they are defending Juggalos and ICP. I was (and by many measures, still am) one of those dirty, desperately poor, semi-rural outcasts. I know a number of ICP songs by heart, not because I ever bought an album, but because I was so thoroughly surrounded by the stuff growing up. And let me assure you, poverty and desperation can inspire great things, and it can inspire horrible, disgusting things. ICP is squarely in the latter category. Making people feel accepted is not ipso facto laudable. ISIS makes people feel accepted, as does the KKK. Ideologically speaking, it's barely hyperbole to mention Juggalos in the same breath as those groups.
posted by Krawczak at 3:08 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
A hundred times this. I think it's sort of ironic to read people in this thread calling out middle-class posters for idealizing working-class movements in the same breath that they are defending Juggalos and ICP. I was (and by many measures, still am) one of those dirty, desperately poor, semi-rural outcasts. I know a number of ICP songs by heart, not because I ever bought an album, but because I was so thoroughly surrounded by the stuff growing up. And let me assure you, poverty and desperation can inspire great things, and it can inspire horrible, disgusting things. ICP is squarely in the latter category. Making people feel accepted is not ipso facto laudable. ISIS makes people feel accepted, as does the KKK. Ideologically speaking, it's barely hyperbole to mention Juggalos in the same breath as those groups.
posted by Krawczak at 3:08 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
I would actually like to hear more about that. The articles that I have seen have either been point-and-laugh (the bulk) or cautiously laudatory. I would love to read an analysis of the deeply reactionary nature of the juggalo movement, if such is available (or even just an in-depth comment or two by Those Who Were There).
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:21 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:21 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have 12 y.o. pics of my daughter and her best friend going through a Juggalo phase. I plan to bring them out for her wedding.
posted by _paegan_ at 3:38 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by _paegan_ at 3:38 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
>"...save for maybe the Grateful Dead."
I'm not a Grateful Dead fan, but I don't think there's any "maybe" to the issue of whether or not they created their own subculture.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:47 PM on April 30, 2015
I'm not a Grateful Dead fan, but I don't think there's any "maybe" to the issue of whether or not they created their own subculture.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:47 PM on April 30, 2015
"I would argue that other bands have effectively created their own subcultultures...hell even the Beatles"
It's probably more accurate to say that the Beatles created the common pop music culture in which we live, or at least massively influenced everyone since, including ICP.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:03 PM on April 30, 2015
It's probably more accurate to say that the Beatles created the common pop music culture in which we live, or at least massively influenced everyone since, including ICP.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:03 PM on April 30, 2015
But neither the Dead nor ICP had much traditional "commercial success", but grew their subculture through endless touring. Which is cool. On the other hand, I think the Grateful Dead were about more than pushing merch.
posted by Windopaene at 4:36 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Windopaene at 4:36 PM on April 30, 2015
Making people feel accepted is not ipso facto laudable. ISIS makes people feel accepted, as does the KKK. Ideologically speaking, it's barely hyperbole to mention Juggalos in the same breath as those groups.
Um, citation needed?
Not for the fact that the ICP fanbase may overlap significantly with demographics in which certain reactionary ideas are popular, but for why that assertion in reference to the ideology of the band/music/"movement" itself is not extreme hyperbole.
posted by atoxyl at 4:38 PM on April 30, 2015
Um, citation needed?
Not for the fact that the ICP fanbase may overlap significantly with demographics in which certain reactionary ideas are popular, but for why that assertion in reference to the ideology of the band/music/"movement" itself is not extreme hyperbole.
posted by atoxyl at 4:38 PM on April 30, 2015
Howard Stern interviews Violent J and Shaggy in 2006...
posted by mikelieman at 4:47 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by mikelieman at 4:47 PM on April 30, 2015
Well I'll give you one - I just remembered the "gathering" throwing stuff at Tila Tequila to the point of drawing blood. You could hold that up as an example of the "comic" misogyny and violence not being so funny.
posted by atoxyl at 4:50 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 4:50 PM on April 30, 2015
Oh, MY! George Takei at 12:00...
posted by mikelieman at 4:57 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 4:57 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you need one song to show you what ICP is about, and why their fans love them, why you should at least like them a little, and how they're really good as the last hip-hop/rock synthesis act standing, here is a classic golden oldie - Hall Of Illusions.
- The "Great Milenko" is a trickster-god of justice and retribution in their mythos.
- There is a very deep-seated moral core to their work. Yes, they say all kinds of offensive and ill-considered crap. So does everyone. They're sorry, and will try to do better, and probably not succeed. They'll still work at it.
- They're talking honestly about the experience of being poor and white when no-one else will, while being rabidly anti-racist.
- Their sense of timing is precise. They weave into and out of each other's flow with the effortless ease of a swiss watch, never getting ahead of or falling behind the beat unless they intend it.
- They use "ninja" to describe people they know and like, because they know they aren't black, and can't say all the things their hip-hop heroes do.
Bonus track! In light of Baltimore - Piggy Pie
(And Tila got off light compared to Bubba Sparxx. Andrew W.K. had dancing girls with badminton rackets, so he got away with minimal harm.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:05 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
- The "Great Milenko" is a trickster-god of justice and retribution in their mythos.
- There is a very deep-seated moral core to their work. Yes, they say all kinds of offensive and ill-considered crap. So does everyone. They're sorry, and will try to do better, and probably not succeed. They'll still work at it.
- They're talking honestly about the experience of being poor and white when no-one else will, while being rabidly anti-racist.
- Their sense of timing is precise. They weave into and out of each other's flow with the effortless ease of a swiss watch, never getting ahead of or falling behind the beat unless they intend it.
- They use "ninja" to describe people they know and like, because they know they aren't black, and can't say all the things their hip-hop heroes do.
Bonus track! In light of Baltimore - Piggy Pie
(And Tila got off light compared to Bubba Sparxx. Andrew W.K. had dancing girls with badminton rackets, so he got away with minimal harm.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:05 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Grateful Dead are an interesting comparison. In both cases I definitely get the appeal of the surrounding community a lot more than I get the appeal of the music. A
I'm with this. I like ICP's music a lot more than the Grateful Dead, but it's not something I would ever listen to on purpose. But in both cases, the communities look (from the outside) like fun, and with a lot of positive attributes. As a kid I can remember being taken to outdoor music festivals that were basically just like Dead shows, and might have actually been -- I was too young to remember what bands were playing. They were great places to run around as a kid, ignoring the boring hippy jam band music and the clouds of pot smoke, but with people in fun costumes, dancing, and lots to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:17 PM on April 30, 2015
That violent misogyny is woven into the fabric of the music, culture, and worldview is not something to laugh off as "missteps". Nor is the fact that it led to Tila Tequila's being not only pelted with hard and sharp objects, but then attacked by a mob that followed her back to the trailer, broke its windows, and tried to flip it -- regardless of how terrible she might be.
I suppose I can't "cite" my personal experience too closely without doxxing myself, but I moved around within two semirural communities separated by a few hundred miles from the late 1980s to around 2001. I learned that while there were good people who were down with the clown, the more thoroughly immersed in the Juggalo culture a person was, the more they were to be avoided. It correlated positively with sexual assault, violence, and whatever statements the band may have made about race, if someone had an ICP tattoo, it was even money they had a swastika tattoo. I can name four people off the top of my head with both.
Juggalos are a culture of hate and willful ignorance, not a worker's movement. They have a song called "Chicken Huntin'" about indiscriminately killing "rednecks," for heaven's sake! You call this class consciousness?
Well, I'm heading down a southern trail
I'm going chicken huntin'
Chopping redneck chicken necks, I ain't saying nothing
To the hillbilly stuck my barrel in his eye
posted by Krawczak at 6:51 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suppose I can't "cite" my personal experience too closely without doxxing myself, but I moved around within two semirural communities separated by a few hundred miles from the late 1980s to around 2001. I learned that while there were good people who were down with the clown, the more thoroughly immersed in the Juggalo culture a person was, the more they were to be avoided. It correlated positively with sexual assault, violence, and whatever statements the band may have made about race, if someone had an ICP tattoo, it was even money they had a swastika tattoo. I can name four people off the top of my head with both.
Juggalos are a culture of hate and willful ignorance, not a worker's movement. They have a song called "Chicken Huntin'" about indiscriminately killing "rednecks," for heaven's sake! You call this class consciousness?
Well, I'm heading down a southern trail
I'm going chicken huntin'
Chopping redneck chicken necks, I ain't saying nothing
To the hillbilly stuck my barrel in his eye
posted by Krawczak at 6:51 PM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've seen three swastika tattoos in the last decade, all of them facial or on the neck. I've seen a lot more ICP tattoos than that, though never anyone in full regalia.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:54 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Dip Flash at 6:54 PM on April 30, 2015
"Even money" was an exaggeration. But you'd also be surprised at how many swastika tattoos there are lurking under shirts or woven more inconspicuously into complex tattoos.
posted by Krawczak at 7:12 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Krawczak at 7:12 PM on April 30, 2015
That violent misogyny is woven into the fabric of the music, culture, and worldview is not something to laugh off as "missteps".
Welcome to almost all rap outside the backpack.
if someone had an ICP tattoo, it was even money they had a swastika tattoo
Poor and disenfranchised? There will be a significant overlap as they try to find an identity.
Juggalos aren't saints or misunderstood youth. They are often desperate and dangerous. They are sometimes viciously stupid and so far past misguided, they couldn't find the right path if they even wanted to... and most don't.
They understand truth being spoken to power. This has always been the appeal of hip-hop.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:15 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Welcome to almost all rap outside the backpack.
if someone had an ICP tattoo, it was even money they had a swastika tattoo
Poor and disenfranchised? There will be a significant overlap as they try to find an identity.
Juggalos aren't saints or misunderstood youth. They are often desperate and dangerous. They are sometimes viciously stupid and so far past misguided, they couldn't find the right path if they even wanted to... and most don't.
They understand truth being spoken to power. This has always been the appeal of hip-hop.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:15 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd rather hang out with 100 Juggalos than spend 10 minutes with a hardcore Crossfit enthusiast.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:34 PM on April 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:34 PM on April 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
I have spoken about my experience with Juggalos on Metafilter before.
To update that summary:
- 2 of those four are now happily married, and all are happy, healthy and well
- He has remarried, has a new baby and his radio show is quite a success
- Of the three that joined the army?
The first have a child who calls me godmother, the second have another lethally adorable baby named after my husband and the last - well, we're coming up on fifteen years together now. And still not a single swastika tattoo on the lot of us!
(They still listen to the music constantly.)
My experiences are anecdotal and can't speak to the whole, and I think it would behoove some people in this thread to remember that theirs are likewise.
posted by pseudonymph at 11:57 PM on May 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
To update that summary:
- 2 of those four are now happily married, and all are happy, healthy and well
- He has remarried, has a new baby and his radio show is quite a success
- Of the three that joined the army?
The first have a child who calls me godmother, the second have another lethally adorable baby named after my husband and the last - well, we're coming up on fifteen years together now. And still not a single swastika tattoo on the lot of us!
(They still listen to the music constantly.)
My experiences are anecdotal and can't speak to the whole, and I think it would behoove some people in this thread to remember that theirs are likewise.
posted by pseudonymph at 11:57 PM on May 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I found myself, through circumstance, attending a Juggalo event, (friend of a friend had passes, hadn't explained what we were getting into, etc.), and I have to say, I have been a part of exclusionary subcultures – punks, spooky kids, the like. I have never encountered a more welcoming, open-minded group of young people in a subculture. There were multiple examples of Juggalos not only helping others of their stripe, but a genuine concern for anyone there, regardless of them being "included". It seemed all about EVERYONE having a safe, good time.
My $.02.
posted by the_royal_we at 9:43 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
My $.02.
posted by the_royal_we at 9:43 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
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posted by Lighthammer at 9:43 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]