This should be done in a proper laboratory, he thought.

May 2, 2015 6:29 AM

In the past five years, no product has perplexed, mesmerized, and divided the cannabis world quite like the increasingly popular and incredibly potent form of concentrated marijuana known as butane hash oil, or BHO. Demand for the intense high BHO delivers has birthed a massive underground industry, with federal and state governments at a loss for how to regulate it and potheads and entrepreneurs accidentally incinerating themselves trying to make it... But while many stoners take BHO’s presence on dispensary shelves as a sign that it is just as safe as weed itself, others find the noxious goop inherently suspicious, and the people who are making, selling, and regulating hash oil admit they know very little about the product.

Wax Is Weed’s Next Big Thing And No One Knows If It’s Safe
posted by griphus (94 comments total)

the people who are making, selling, and regulating hash oil admit they know very little about the product.

The same for the synthetic marijuana known as Spice.
posted by Fizz at 6:49 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

All synthetic marijuana, no?

I think we have had a few (2-3) deaths caused by (apparently) synthetic marijuana psychosis, back when it was a moral panic issue a while back.
posted by Mezentian at 6:53 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Holy Reefer Madness, Batman.

The question isn't whether smoking/vaping/whatevering the BHO is safe, it's whether or not making it with something as inherently unsafe as butane is safe. People aren't getting hurt smoking the honey oil/wax, they're getting hurt/burned meth lab-ing it up indoors. The article buries the lede so far I'm having a problem finding it.

But hot damn, that wax/BHO shit is strong as hell. I don't like being too high, and that stuff makes me way too high way too quickly. Shit, nobody I know likes being too high. I don't want to lay on my couch in a stupor, I want to fire up Trailer Park boys with my friends and laugh our asses off.
posted by Sphinx at 6:55 AM on May 2, 2015 [18 favorites]

All synthetic marijuana, no?

No, not at all.
posted by griphus at 6:56 AM on May 2, 2015 [10 favorites]

At least states are steadily making Spice illegal, thanks largely to its being a synthetic. BHO, though, poses a real conundrum for legislators in legal-weed states, since it's a cannabis derivative. It would seem one approach to take would be to start regulating THC concentrations. Doing so, of course, would only create another underground market.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:59 AM on May 2, 2015

Er, I mean the article isn't about synthetic marijuana.
posted by griphus at 6:59 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

"The question isn't whether smoking/vaping/whatevering the BHO is safe, it's whether or not making it with something as inherently unsafe as butane is safe. People aren't getting hurt smoking the honey oil/wax, they're getting hurt/burned meth lab-ing it up indoors."

The guy is literally saying that butane and pesticides in badly made wax make people sick. I don'the know if he is wrong, but it is a primary point of the article.
posted by idiopath at 7:10 AM on May 2, 2015 [3 favorites]

Call me when it is deadlier than organic produce has turned out to be.
posted by srboisvert at 7:15 AM on May 2, 2015

potheads and entrepreneurs accidentally incinerating themselves trying to make it

Around here people blow up their houses all the time doing this. People must be learning from youtube tutorials or from some dumbass buddy who knows some guy, because the kitchen explosions are sadly routine.

It is hard to imagine that homemade and unregulated hash doesn't sometimes have harmful stuff in it, just like bathtub gin can be made safely or dangerously.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 AM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Well, that's basically what I'd expect from a student of chemistry at Warren Wilson college.
posted by oceanjesse at 7:19 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Wax Is Weed’s Next Big Thing And No One Knows If It’s Safe

how many people have died from it
posted by Awful Peice of Crap at 7:19 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah I'm starting to regret using the unecessarily alarmist headline.
posted by griphus at 7:22 AM on May 2, 2015 [5 favorites]

I shared this with all the people i know that use BHO. Yet to hear back from any of them.

I personally hate the stuff - it is such a pain in the ass to smoke and is horrifically expensive compared to bud.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 7:26 AM on May 2, 2015

Yeah I'm starting to regret using the unecessarily alarmist headline.

Don't sweat it. You'd get some blowback if you said anything other than that it comes straight from God's tits.
posted by thelonius at 7:26 AM on May 2, 2015 [13 favorites]

just like bathtub gin can be made safely or dangerously

That's exactly the analogy that occurred to me, too.
posted by gimonca at 7:28 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

As an old-time (largely retired) pothead, I don't understand all these new-fangled methods of getting high.

It's weed. You smoke it. Vaporizer? Sure. Brownies? Fine as an occasional novelty. Anything beyond that is just overcomplicating things.

I would hate to see all the progress we've made toward legalization undermined by the folks who want to turn cannabis into crank.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:36 AM on May 2, 2015 [45 favorites]

Thinking about this more, I can't see any advantages to keeping weed (and weed products) illegal and unregulated other than padding law enforcement budgets and raising cartel profits. Treat it like alcohol, tax the crap out of it, and make the suppliers and producers go through the same kinds of OSHA and food safety regulatory hoops that distillers and breweries live with. That will also help get the growers off of the national forests, which is ecologically terrible.

The questions raised in the article are interesting in a certain way, but they are solved very simply with legalization and the consequent regulations and customer rights. No one has to worry that their vodka has butane in it, and they shouldn't have to wonder about their hash oil, either.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:39 AM on May 2, 2015 [12 favorites]

Wax has been huge out here in California for a couple of years now (well, all concentrates, wax, shatter, oils), but many people making it have moved away from butane and use the supposedly cleaner CO2 extraction method. I'm told you can tell when wax is 'dirty' (butane not all evaporated out after extraction) by both sight and taste, and it seems like it's not much of a problem to get 'clean' concentrates at a quality dispensary.

What seems much more dangerous is how strong the concentrates are, and how people use them. You get a "dab rig" (bits of wax are called dabs), which is a water pipe with a nail (glass or metal spike) instead of a bowl. The nail is heated up with a gas-powered torch, and then you just drop a dab on it and inhale the vapor. While it's a clean way to combust and inhale (vapor, not smoke), it's insanely strong and the hit is much MUCH more intense than any plant-based smoking method--seriously, waxes and oils test at 70-90%+ concentration of THC, while super-duper strong weed is going to be 20-25%.

They don't call it "the heroin of weed" for nothing, and the people I encounter who are into dabbing are much more like problem drug users than your typical pot smoker or even stoner.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on May 2, 2015 [6 favorites]

The article describes the product of alcohol extraction as "gross". What exactly is wrong with it? Why aren't people doing alcohol extraction since it is far safer than butane?
posted by rdr at 7:40 AM on May 2, 2015

We should have an open-source design for an extraction apparatus that is safe, and which produces a clean product. Something that can be easily fabricated, using a combination of off-the-shelf parts and—for any custom bits—parts ordered from online 3D-printing and laser-cutting services.

It seems like you should be able to assemble something like that for $200–500. The improvement in purity alone (and the reduced chance of blowing oneself up) would incentivize BHO manufacturers to make the outlay.

You just need someone with enough engineering background to design and assemble the prototypes, and someone with enough chemistry background to evaluate the purity of the product.

Legally speaking, you could either design it as a general-purpose solvent extraction device, or simply make sure the parts are so generic that it would be impossible to prohibit their sale.

It's quite possible I don't know what I'm talking about, but this seems eminently doable to me, given the right know-how and the right motivation.

Any volunteers?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:54 AM on May 2, 2015 [3 favorites]

Although I am not totally convinced that even regular weed is good for a person, even if it were, I AM convinced that BHO is not. Almost anything done in excess is unwise. Nothing wrong with having a few beers unless you have a history of abuse but, to drink a whole case at one sitting is over-doing it. The problem I have with hallucinogens is this: Everyone has problems in life that they are trying to over-come. It is part of the human condition. Now, if you are not experiencing reality as it is, how can you approach your problems? That said, I don't think the government should stop people from smoking pot. It needs to be regulated however. Age limits, etc. I have heard of people blowing pot smoke in a baby's mouth. THAT should be a felony. Getting back to the subject of over-doing it, nothing wrong with having a donut. If you have a dozen though, you have unhealthy eating habits.
posted by rankfreudlite at 8:04 AM on May 2, 2015

I can barely operate my tv's remote control when I'm stoned. Something requiring a "rig" and a blowtorch seems like a bad idea for me.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:07 AM on May 2, 2015 [8 favorites]

escape from the potato planet: "Anything beyond that is just overcomplicating things."

David Cross has some thoughts on this topic while he's a guest on "Getting Doug with High", and it's your typical bitter/angry/anti-commercialism David Cross :)
posted by symbioid at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Furthermore, I have problems with the argument "No one's died from it." Death is not the only bad thing in the world.
posted by rankfreudlite at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2015 [3 favorites]

LooseFilter: " the people I encounter who are into dabbing are much more like problem drug users than your typical pot smoker or even stoner"

Cause/effect reversal, perhaps?
posted by symbioid at 8:12 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Holy shit - I'm not even going to get into the derail about "hallucinogens"... Wow.
posted by symbioid at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2015 [5 favorites]

Reefer Madness is right. It's still just getting high from THC, just like smoking weed, and the THC still has the same LD50 of 1.270 times body weight. It's still just weed, like 190 proof liquor is still just alcohol.

BHO processing isn't what all the cool kids are doing these days, it's just in the news because people keep blowing themselves up. Processing marijuana with chemical solvents like butane, hexane, propane, and CO2 are out with the connoisseurs, and the old school sifting methods are back in, with modern attention to detail and real science. Newer sifting variations involve freezing at the right temperature and sifting with just the right amount of force through a fine screen to break off the heads of the trichromes which have the highest concentration of THC. This results in 90%+ THC, just like the highest-end CO2 and BHO preparations, but no chemical has ever touched the product. It's weed zest, not weed extract.

For people questioning the "why" of this, THC tolerance has a huge curve. Regular daily smokers won't even notice a 50mg dose of THC that would put a neophyte on their ass for an entire day. A dab of 90%+ sift, however, is something that they can feel.
posted by Revvy at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2015 [18 favorites]

"Now, if you are not experiencing reality as it is, how can you approach your problems?"

Most problems are not analytical puzzles of judgment. Trauma, dysphoria, anxiety, among other issues, cannot be solved by clear headed knowledge. And for some people, hallucinogens can address these sorts of problems.
posted by idiopath at 8:20 AM on May 2, 2015 [30 favorites]

I just went to an inservice about vaping, mostly focused on tobacco products, and the overlap is in the complete lack of regulation, which strikes me as a byproduct of the broad neoliberal attack on regulation across industries.

It's frustrating when any concern is viewed as Reefer Madness hysteria: novel methods of preparing and administering substances should be safety tested and the products should be subject to standards, inspection and taxation.
posted by latkes at 8:25 AM on May 2, 2015 [7 favorites]

The article describes the product of alcohol extraction as "gross". What exactly is wrong with it? Why aren't people doing alcohol extraction since it is far safer than butane?

Oh, people* are. It's just not as potent as BHO.

* For some value of people.
posted by spitbull at 8:29 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

latkes, it is not like weed quality and safety was "regulated" in any other form before widespread vaping.

full legalization now.
posted by spitbull at 8:33 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just like everything else, it's a matter of context and moderation. I have suffered with severe back pain all of my life (due to undiagnosed scoliosis as a kid that got worse over time); I've had two lumbar fusion surgeries, but to this day, some days the pain is so manageable I almost forget it is there. Others, though, I spend the day laying flat on the floor, staring at the ceiling, listening to Netflix or NPR in the background to provide some sort of distraction. For years, my doctors threw optiate after opiate at me, until I was forced to confront that not only am I now and addict, I am unable to determine how much pain I am really in. I managed to get off opiates altogether, and when discussing non-opiate pain relief with my doctor, he suggested medicinal canabis (I was living in WA state at the time). I had never gotten into pot recreationally, but I was willing to give anything a shot. After I got my medical card, I remember going int my first dispensary and feeling completely lost, but thankfully the attendant asked a lot of questions about the type of pain I was having, how often, etc, and turned me on to some indicas and hybrids that helped tremendously. Even so, there were days when my back would flare up, and something more was required, so I would sprinkle a little wax in with the flower. Yes, it is much more potent, and yes, it can simply knock you out, but when you are in incredible pain, this is exactly what you yearn for.

My time in Seattle was the only time in my life that, with the exception of medicinal marijuana, I didn't have to take any form of prescription medication. Now I live in a state where medical marijuana is not legal, and (since I won't take opiates), my doctors have had me bounding around from one medication to the next. Back in december, I was put on an anti-depressant (can't remember the name) that was supposed to help with nerve pain. Instead, it cause me to have a seizure, literally moments after I had pulled over my car and parked.

My point is, there is a time and a place for even potent derivatives such as wax; you just certainly should know what you are getting into. I wish I still lived in a place where medicinal cannabis was legal. I was able to function (physically and mentally) better than I had in years, and end my reliance on expensive prescription medications full of unwanted side effects.
posted by chaotic_neutral at 8:41 AM on May 2, 2015 [42 favorites]

Death is not the only bad thing in the world.
posted by rankfreudlite

Indeed, running low on weed is worse.

A lot of folks are experimenting with wax these days because of the widespread adoption of vaping, meaning everyone has mounds of ABV and wonders "what could I do with that?"
posted by spitbull at 8:41 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

> Everyone has problems in life that they are trying to over-come. It is part of the human condition. Now, if you are not experiencing reality as it is, how can you approach your problems?

I think if we've learned anything at all from forty years of cognitive science, it's that no one is experiencing reality as it is, but instead gets an artificial viewpoint, carefully edited by their sensory apparatus before the conscious mind even sees it.

I would also add that I and many other people I know have successfully used books, stories, movies, plays and music to help approach my problems - none of those things being actually "reality as it is".

I don't think many people think that excessive use of drugs - even low toxicity ones like cannabis - can't hurt you. But people are going to do drugs - often to deal with problems that are insolvable, like physical pain.

In a given year in the US, about 6000 people overdose on heroin. About 40,000 overdose on prescription drugs. About 90,000 die from alcohol, and about 480,000 die from cigarettes.

Contrast that to zero deaths from cannabis. Yes, maybe a lot of these people are dysfunctional stoners, but it's quite likely they'd be dysfunctional drunks if they couldn't get their pot, and many more of them would die.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:05 AM on May 2, 2015 [22 favorites]

Ice water and fine screens never blew up and incinerated anybody in the process of extracting kif. No complex chemical solvent residue to inhale either.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:10 AM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

BAGEL BITES, NOT BUTANE LIGHTS

CHOOSE SNAX NOT WAX
posted by Juliet Banana at 9:22 AM on May 2, 2015 [20 favorites]

full legalization now.

Yup, I agree. But with full legalization of a psychoactive compound comes government regulation, taxation, and testable standards. I think in a place like California, the pseudo-legal status of weed leads to some really problematic aspects of the industry.
posted by latkes at 9:23 AM on May 2, 2015 [5 favorites]

I never thought I'd say that I was envious of US drug policy (even if it is all up in the air right now). In the UK we're still firing drugs advisors who give advice instead of repeating the official line.

Being a depressingly 'good' middle class boy, I never learnt how/where/when to buy drugs as a kid, and now I find myself in late 30s really wishing I could buy some weed and experiment with making a nice tincture to fight back pain and depression.

I really thought we'd get our shit together before you guys did. :(
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 9:25 AM on May 2, 2015

sodium lights the horizon:

> now I find myself in late 30s really wishing I could buy some weed and experiment with making a nice tincture to fight back pain and depression.

The US has a pretty active space rock scene, and all these people seem to be cheerful stoners (and drunks for that matter). I'd recommend friending Hawkwind on Facebook and going from there. It shouldn't be so hard...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:32 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

symbioid: Cause/effect reversal, perhaps?

Quite possibly, now that you mention it. Also, I should mention that my characterization of concentrates as potentially "dangerous" refers to recreational use among young people that I see, that seems problematic to me. For those that need very high concentrations, especially for pain management, it remains quite efficacious as medicine.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2015

Why aren't people doing alcohol extraction since it is far safer than butane?

Alcohol is a polar solvent, while most other solvents used are non-polar. That means alcohol will extract more of the plant materials (chlorophyll and waxes) that are unpleasant to consume. Alcohol evaporates much more slowly, so the process takes longer. And it's not 100% safe in the home "laboratory," as you are still risking a fire if you're evaporating alcohol over a heat source without proper ventilation.
posted by peeedro at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2015 [5 favorites]

it's insanely strong and the hit is much MUCH more intense than any plant-based smoking method--seriously, waxes and oils test at 70-90%+ concentration of THC, while super-duper strong weed is going to be 20-25%

good lord, just reading that sent me into a pre-panic attack mode. why would anyone ever.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

it all seems really interesting, but i've pretty well settled on edibles for my bang for my buck. i am one of those rare few who never gets too high on edibles, but it hits me in a way that smoking just doesn't anymore - and as an asthmatic, it's a better choice anyway. i'll probably eventually get something like the pax for vaping, but for now, cannanut butter is doing me right.

also, before weed my life was unimaginably awful in a bunch of different ways - i don't feel the need to justify my use to anyone, but i will say that anyone moralizing about facing reality, etc don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
posted by nadawi at 10:21 AM on May 2, 2015 [11 favorites]

You get a "dab rig" (bits of wax are called dabs), which is a water pipe with a nail (glass or metal spike) instead of a bowl. The nail is heated up with a gas-powered torch, and then you just drop a dab on it and inhale the vapor. While it's a clean way to combust and inhale (vapor, not smoke),

Okay, that's nuts. Everyone I know who uses wax does so with a vape pen.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:49 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm pretty sensitive to anti-drug hysteria bullshit, and I totally didn't get that vibe from this piece. I'm surprised that some people are. Solvent-based extraction methods are inherently going to be problematic with regard to residuals and health and, often, on the production side with regard to safety. The message I got from the piece was basically the opposite of favoring criminalization, because everything that's a concern in the piece is worst under a criminalized regime. In contrast, all the concerns of the piece are answered by legalization and regulation like we have of any other food and drug production. I mean, the crazy thing is that someone like Rize is the voice of safety and reason. He comes off as the more responsible person in this story, and that's damning with very faint praise, in context.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:50 AM on May 2, 2015

"Synthetic marijuana" is not a natural category. That is to say, anything that produces a similar effect to cannabis without being derived from the plant is classified as "synthetic marijuana", whatever its composition or method of action. Thus I feel quite justified in both 1) ignoring the prattle of anyone whipping up panic over synthetic cannabis and 2) going nowhere near anything labelled as synthetic cannabis without information specific to the product on offer.
posted by topynate at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2015

sodium lights the horizon:


Eponystetical!

latkes, my point was that the problem of lack of regulation would require legalization to solve, precisely.

Although it's pretty freaking self evident to any smoker why vaping must be safer, assuming safe product.

(Note I did not say perfectly safe. Walking down the street is not perfectly safe.)
posted by spitbull at 11:03 AM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Holy shit - I'm not even going to get into the derail about "hallucinogens"... Wow.

Oops! Sorry, I thought THC was a hallucinogen. Carry on!
posted by rankfreudlite at 11:09 AM on May 2, 2015

One concern that I have about medibles and concentrates is the ease with which they could be adulterated by synthetics. "Back in the day" marijuana was the street drug that was least likely to be adulterated or simulated, because of its distinctive herbal characteristics.

With the quasi-legal status that cannabis enjoys these days, and the lack of widespread testing, what's to stop an unscrupulous vendor from buying a kilogram of synthesized THC for under $3000 and using it instead of 20 or more kilograms of cannabis flowers for at least five times the price?

One good thing about the market-driven concentrates, though, in terms of research: People are doing to themselves what could never be done in labs, and as a result are getting to the edge of toxic outcomes. Whether these are caused by synthetic adulteration or just enormous doses isn't clear right now, but search for "cannabis hyperemesis" for a sample of what's to come, both in propaganda and real research.

Revvy, that's 1,270 mg/kg. Someone might be able to misunderstand your comment as asserting LD50 was 1.270 kg/kg.
posted by the Real Dan at 11:36 AM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

There are some problems in this article, especially in the first half:

lighter fluid is cheap

Lighter fluid is not butane, and is not used to create BHO. Butane is.

Put a drop of butane on your hand and try and get sick from it. In fact, try and do anything with it: you can't because it evaporates at 30.9 F. (it's cold though, so don't actually do this). The later discussion of traces of butane may be helpful, but there is no need to use butane that has traces of other chemicals (like hexane, mentioned in the article).

Plant extraction is a complicated process understood best by chemists with advanced degrees, but nearly all of the people making hash oil have no chemistry background whatsoeve

So stop drinking coffee, a plant extraction, and leave it to the chemistry experts at Starbucks. A hash oil lab consists of: a tube to hold some bud, a can of butane, and a glass cooking tray to hold the result. The larger the scale, the more butane involved, the more risk of fire there is. It is definitely more dangerous but requires about the same apparatus as that required to make coffee.

To conceal the use of butane and legitimize the drug’s variety of textures and colors, dispensaries came up with names for every possible consistency.

This is nonsense. We have the ridiculous series of names for different strains of bud, and other products in order to tell them apart, and because potheads love a good name. The giant BHO category for these products will serve as a clue to their origin.

There is confusion in this topic that stems from the acronym. BHO would be more meaningful if it was understood as 'butane honey oil', rather than hash oil. If the distinction were preserved, we'd have better discussions of the topic, honey oil being understood as a bud derivative, hash oil coming from hashish, which is already highly refined. And the whole point of quality BHO is that it is produced from bud, not the shake described in the article. The latter is a step away from quality. Know your local producer.

"the people I encounter who are into dabbing are much more like problem drug users than your typical pot smoker or even stoner"

How do you know that? I'm guessing you have encountered a few here in this thread, for example...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 11:43 AM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

lupus_yonderboy: "I think if we've learned anything at all from forty years of cognitive science, it's that no one is experiencing reality as it is, but instead gets an artificial viewpoint, carefully edited by their sensory apparatus before the conscious mind even sees it."

We're apparently always rediscovering the unconscious.
posted by meehawl at 11:58 AM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

also, before weed my life was unimaginably awful in a bunch of different ways - i don't feel the need to justify my use to anyone, but i will say that anyone moralizing about facing reality, etc don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

You raise a good point. Perhaps it's just an issue of personal philosophy. Some people are more in synch with Pascal and others with Descartes. I did not mean to make it a moral issue. Is there even such a thing as "morals"? I was just describing my own set of values. I just thought we were having a discussion about an issue and that people were contributing their views. I was surprised to learn that my own views were morally suspect! I suppose that I could adopt the stance that anyone moralizing about my views "doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about." : )
posted by rankfreudlite at 12:01 PM on May 2, 2015

Thanks, Dan, for the correction. It is indeed 1.27 g/kg, ingested, making the LD50 for a 200 pound human around 115g of pure THC, call it ~125g of 90% wax/shatter/sift. That's about a quarter pound of oil with a medical patient cost of about $6000 and a retail cost (in WA) of over $10k. If someone were able to eat a softball-sized ball, keep it down, and process it all in 15 minutes...yeah, nope, still not happening.
posted by Revvy at 12:06 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think if we've learned anything at all from forty years of cognitive science, it's that no one is experiencing reality as it is, but instead gets an artificial viewpoint, carefully edited by their sensory apparatus before the conscious mind even sees it.

This is an interesting point. I suppose that it all involves whether one chooses to be logical or not. For, the cornerstone of logic lies in the fact that something can not both BE and NOT BE.
If this is true, I challenge anyone to show me a language that doesn't use the verb "to be" or a variant thereof.
Regarding cognitive science, how can the thing being studied be the thing doing the studying? Can a book read itself?
posted by rankfreudlite at 12:14 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

The war on drugs isn't really a war on drugs anyway. It's a war on poor people. How can you go to war against a substance. What's next? A war on ideas? I did not mean to upset anyone by broadening the discussion!
posted by rankfreudlite at 12:32 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is there residual unburned butane in the flame of a cigarette lighter? Seems like there might be a few ppm there.
posted by etherist at 12:39 PM on May 2, 2015

Riau Indonesian has no verbs whatsoever. There's another language that only has verbs for "coming", "going", and "doing" something, but doesn't include "doing being" and there's other languages missing entire cognitive catgories for things like the color blue. Language is not logical and anyone struggling with "i after e..." knows how weird it can be.
posted by Revvy at 12:50 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Riau Indonesian has no verbs whatsoever.

Riau Indonesian:
Saya pakai kaka mata.
I am using my glasses.
"To use" is a verb.
But I guess since we all have our own reality. . .
posted by rankfreudlite at 1:03 PM on May 2, 2015

Anything translating to readable English will certainly help your cognitive bias.
posted by Revvy at 1:07 PM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Mrs Glaucon, my medicinal chemist better-half, said the pesticide and butane figures are indeed really concerning from a human health standpoint. Not peer reviewed, but she's pretty sharp.

I'll stick to my magic flight and green herb, thank you. The comparison of beer to 190 proof liquor is a fair one, I think.
posted by glaucon at 1:21 PM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

There is no such thing as a language with no verbs. That's whack. Verb phrases are constitutive of language at what most linguists believe to be a neurobiologically determihed level,

Verbs need not always be expressed (in particular the copula) but they always exist in mental grammar.

Your point about color terms is apocryphal too, and rather muddled. The absence of a term does not mean the absence of a concept, something linguists have been pretty sure about for about 50 years or so.
posted by spitbull at 1:23 PM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nthing the point about the particular tolerance characteristics of weed -- ppl dabbing smoke a lot and need a very concentrated drug to get the high or pain relief they're used to.

It's one of the annoying characteristics of the legal/semi-legal weed business that dispensaries cater to medium to high use weed users. I firmly believe there is a large and untapped market of light-use folks out there who would jump at low-thc flowers and pre-rolls.
posted by wemayfreeze at 2:17 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Nth reason why I stick to the "flowers." They work pretty damn well. (Just ignore my butane lighter. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 2:49 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh and I will just add that comparative linguistic analysis IS greatly enhanced by good weed. I never really understood ergativity (look it up if verbs interest you) until I studied it high back in grad school.

Whoa.
posted by spitbull at 3:12 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

My guess would be that you'd get more butane exposure from using a lighter than you would from burning a small dollop of something extracted with butane. It's a highly volatile solvent, so it's not going to tend to stick around in an extract. And if you burn that extract, you're likely combusting whatever's left.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:12 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Someone I know dropped in on a hipster Brooklyn loft late one night to drop something off. There was a marijuana transaction happening at the same time, and a "dab" was offered all around.

Someone ended up planted in an overstuffed chair watching spiralling tunnels of lattice and lace until the host had to ask him to leave, whereupon he sat on the stoop outside for another hour before feeling capable to find and ride the subway home.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:26 PM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

Btw, you can't just make "Spice" or "synthetic marijuana" illegal, because there are zillions of ways to make synthetic cannabinoids and they will just change the formula every time you ban a particular one.

You can't just generically ban "stuff that acts like marijuana" because you will make the pharmaceutical industry impossible— and may ban the cure for cancer while you are at it. You can't just generically ban "stuff that looks chemically like marijuana" because some stuff that looks the same doesn't act the same and some that does act similarly looks differently. Also, pharma.

I wrote a piece on how this whole issue is tearing apart prohibition, which was linked on Mefi a little while back
posted by Maias at 3:42 PM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

Btw, you can't just make "Spice" or "synthetic marijuana" illegal, because there are zillions of ways to make synthetic cannabinoids and they will just change the formula every time you ban a particular one.

The Federal Analog Act exists for exactly this reason. There are numerous state laws which ban analogues as well. The pharmaceutical industry isn't really hampered by these laws because drugs that are FDA approved, or in the pipeline to approval, are automatically exempt.
posted by dephlogisticated at 4:25 PM on May 2, 2015

How can you go to war against a substance. What's next? A war on ideas?

Yeah, try to start advocating for a militant Islamic state, and see how the feds treat you on that one (hey, first amendment... people advocate for a theocratic Christiant state without issue, even advocating overthrowing the government to do so).

Sixty years ago, try this same thought experiment, except advocate for a communist government, see where that would get you. A bit earlier, try advocating for unionization, and see how the government would treat you.

Also, try advocating for violent measures to destroy ecological destruction, and see how the government treats you.

In summary, the US government has a long history of conducting wars on ideas.
posted by el io at 5:23 PM on May 2, 2015 [5 favorites]

you are still risking a fire if you're evaporating alcohol over a heat source without proper ventilation.

Qwiso requires no heat source.
posted by spitbull at 5:32 PM on May 2, 2015

"That's right, guys would go into their basements and become scientists. 'Like dude, check this out, check this out, you know, if you get a baby's bottle, and you fill it up with a little gasoline and dead lima beans, and you suck it, you'll be fucked up!'" -Chris Rock
posted by ostranenie at 6:59 PM on May 2, 2015

Another look at the West Coast concentrate scene.
posted by porn in the woods at 7:11 PM on May 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Honestly i support stronger labelling and stuff for this kind of thing even if a lot of this is just dumb reefer madness BS.

The first time i ever tried it, a doofy frat boy type guy was telling me and my friends about it and ended up making a batch in our driveway. Took one dab, and went and sat down to(try to) play majora's mask.

I woke up something like 13 hours later with my hands still gripping the N64 controller like claws, as if i had been put down by a general anesthetic. I'm amazed i didn't piss my pants or something(which i've heard of happening).

It's like the weed equivalent of everclear. It's WAY too easy to get super duper profoundly fucked up.

What StickyCarpet describes is on point. It's like doing fucking mushrooms or something, or eating REALLY strong weed brownies.

It's still just weed, like 190 proof liquor is still just alcohol.

Yea, but similarly, there needs to be both warning labels and lore developed that this some Serious Shit and not just "awesome, try it bro lol". Everyone knows everclear or 151 is monstrous be careful stuff. Yea, most stupid college kids still go "yea whatever i'm invincible" like i did before i jumped off a second story balcony because i thought i'd be arrested for being drunk at a party, but at least i was warned.

BHO/dabs are just seen as "cool". No one really discusses how strong they really are, just that they're stronger and that's totally a good thing because weeeeeeeeed maaaaaan.
posted by emptythought at 7:12 PM on May 2, 2015 [4 favorites]

Oh and to be clear, at the time i was a pretty gigantic stoner who smoked asstons of weed every day. I had a job where everyone including management smoked weed all day so even that wasn't a pause in my daily routine.

It's not just something "you can feel" if you're a regular stoner, it's like turns you into a toddler that hasn't entirely gotten a strong grip on language yet stoned. Tug the cats tail until it slashes you and then cry for your mommy kind of shit.

I remember watching a documentary that went deep in to what hypothermia does to your body, and how it actually slows down chemical reactions in your brain so that you're literally thinking slower and going "yea, that's pretty much what it felt like".
posted by emptythought at 7:19 PM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: Turns you into a toddler that hasn't entirely gotten a strong grip on language.
posted by el io at 10:03 PM on May 2, 2015 [3 favorites]

So, tolerance levels and intense marijuana experiences.

I had an ex who was a heavy daily smoker, and I am a very rare (like maybe a few small puffs a year) smoker.

She decided it would be fun to shotgun me a hit, which she decided would involve take a deep draw and pushing every last bit into my lungs. And then in my immediately incapacitated state, she decided to do it a couple more times.

It was like a much less cerebral version of a bad mushroom trip mixed with being blackout drunk. It was so absurdly intense she thought I was faking it. I was repeatedly leaving reality and entering total void and absence, only to come up for a moment of lucidity and go back down again. It was one of those experiences that hits so hard and lasts so long you wonder if your brain is just going to be broken like that for the rest of your life.
posted by idiopath at 10:51 PM on May 2, 2015

Dab Artists: The craftsmen at the front edge of the marijuana‑concentrate boom
posted by Room 641-A at 11:47 PM on May 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Room 641, that's the same (really excellent) article Porn in the Woods posted four comments back.

Honestly it's better than the article in the FPP. And it also reports on serious, professional and very well capitalized operations using industrial scale and food grade critical CO2 extraction and very precise measurements of the chemistry of the output production In Colorado. So the alarmism of the FPP article is more nuanced, and a lot of the hand wringing in this thread is answered by sane and intelligent people who understand scientific concepts and product safety.
posted by spitbull at 9:51 AM on May 3, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yea, most stupid college kids still go "yea whatever i'm invincible" like i did before i jumped off a second story balcony because i thought i'd be arrested for being drunk at a party, but at least i was warned...
posted by emptythought at 10:12 PM on May 2

I also jumped off a second floor balcony in college! Well actually a fire escape. I had smoked a Snoop Dogg joint with strangers as a very inexperienced human then went out to that fire escape to get some fresh air. But no! The two guys knocking on the door with a dog HAD to be cops! They HAD to be. And they had a drug sniffing dog. I was toast.

As soon as they got inside, I jumped. And just started walking. I kind of recall getting home after a friend caught up with me in a taxi.

Anyways. We should grab a beer sometime or something.
posted by glaucon at 10:18 AM on May 3, 2015

Oh yes, I see now. I searched for the title of the article and was surprised not to see it already.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:21 AM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]

I've been enjoying wax for the past few years. I use an electronic cigarette-style vaporizer pen, which does wonders for stealth and portability (I've yet to do a blowtorch-assisted 'dab'). Top-shelf wax can be had for as little as $30/gram at Humboldt County dispensaries. My favorite thing about wax: you don't get stoned and want to take a nap - you get HIGH and want to do things.

The rise of local DIY hash makers has been a real problem. Last month, two hash labs blew up on the same day.

posted by porn in the woods at 10:41 AM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]

porn in the woods, isn't that just the difference between sativa (high and want to do things!) and indica (goodnight world!)? Or do you think it's the medium?
posted by spitbull at 10:57 AM on May 3, 2015

PS This is how old hippies roll.

A little Labrador Brown.
posted by spitbull at 10:59 AM on May 3, 2015

Here's the answer to many concerns expressed here, from the Mike Sager/CSM article pitw and room 641 posted:

Organa makes hash oil using a process called supercritical CO2 extraction, the same technique for decaffeinating coffee and drawing essential oils from rose petals for perfume. Supercritical CO2 is an organic compound that exhibits properties of a gas as well as a liquid. Because of this, the CO2 is able to flow through the chopped marijuana as a gas would, but it also acts like a solvent, as a liquid would, pulling out the desired molecules of thc and the rest. To achieve this supercritical state, great amounts of pressure are needed, one reason the machines are so expensive.

By growing its own pot, Organa can make hash-oil products with consistent standards and strengths. Its hash-oil cartridges are designed to be used with O.penVAPE’s electronic vaporizers but can be used with others as well. According to the company, it is selling cartridges at a rate of one every ten seconds, more than 250,000 per month. To keep up with demand, Organa has about 90,000 square feet of indoor grow space in Colorado. It has recently bought a 300-acre ranch in Pueblo; city and banking officials are working with the company, because they believe it will bring jobs and commerce.

[In] Organa’s extensively inspected, medical-grade lab (...) according to law, every batch of pot gets tested for strength and is given a bar code that follows it from field to dispensary . . .

posted by spitbull at 11:09 AM on May 3, 2015

spitbull - it's entirely the medium. I can vape wax all day but I have to wait until after 5 pm for the flowers unless I have time for a nap.
posted by porn in the woods at 11:14 AM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]

Interesting, I have the opposite experience.
posted by spitbull at 11:19 AM on May 3, 2015

Yeah, this is all really individual. I have a neurological disorder that affects how my brain produces and regulates dopamine* and I've smoked the exact same substance by the exact same method as others and been running laps around the block obsessing over a dumb thing I said in 9th grade while everyone else is asleep with a styro carton of pad thai balanced on their belly.

*Tourette Syndrome, it's too much dopamine, all the time, can't even look askance at a keybump or I'm trembling and blurting out every thought for days
posted by Juliet Banana at 11:38 AM on May 3, 2015

Oh, and I fucking HATE DABBING, though the only time I did it it was the whole butane rig and it shot me straight back to junior high and being CONVINCED that the joint we smoked in the park before Rocky Horror was laced with something because where else did this bottomless pit in my own stomach that I'm falling into come from
posted by Juliet Banana at 11:40 AM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was repeatedly leaving reality and entering total void and absence, only to come up for a moment of lucidity and go back down again.

Is this how you looked to other people or your own description of the experience? It sounds reminiscent of how the first five or so times I got high it seemed like the continuity of my perception broke down and I was receiving the world as a series of discrete waves. A few people have understood what I mean by this but probably a minority.

Like JB says it's this kind of thing that makes kids think their weed is laced. "Hallucinogen" is not a great classification of drugs in any case, but THC can get psychedelic for sure.
posted by atoxyl at 12:10 PM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]

It was my own description of the experience. Yes, very much like I was getting discrete samples of the world in between total blank.
posted by idiopath at 12:55 PM on May 3, 2015

Yea, but similarly, there needs to be both warning labels and lore developed that this some Serious Shit and not just "awesome, try it bro lol". Everyone knows everclear or 151 is monstrous be careful stuff.

What's the danger? (aside from the slightly dubious "jumping off a balcony" scenario -- also, the danger there is still the prohibition -- running from the cops, etc.)
posted by mrgrimm at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2015

You might wind up like Maureen Dowd.
posted by spitbull at 4:04 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]

I guess the same "danger" as doing way-too-much-but-not-lethal-amounts of other drugs like acid. No, you're not going to choke on your own vomit, but you're in for a profoundly unpleasant experience that you're locked into and can't opt out of or take a break from. It's better to make the correct dosage based on your experience level, history, weight, preferred level of fucked upness, etc
posted by Juliet Banana at 11:32 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm curious if there are anecdotes about any health impacts to the folks producing BHO. The obvious danger is lab equipment explosions mentioned here but extensive exposure to butane and aerosolized plant oils in a production context seems concerning...
posted by latkes at 6:34 AM on May 4, 2015