1%ers are more like 2.5%?
May 18, 2015 9:57 AM Subscribe
Yesterday's biker gang shootout in Waco, Texas has led to nine deaths, 18 injuries, and 165 arrests. Vox cites a 2013 FBI Report stating that organized motorcycle gangs comprise about 2.5% of gang members nationwide, but represent a larger threat to public safety than their numbers suggest. Plenty of observations have been made about the difference between police reaction to this shooting compared to protests in Baltimore and Ferguson.
I can't help but feel that there's an interesting story here which is going to get buried under people's attempts to shoehorn it into some kind of commentary on their favorite pet issue.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:10 AM on May 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:10 AM on May 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
The weird thing is, this biker riot didn't occur in a dingy dive bar with a dusty pool table and cigar smoke hanging in the air. It happened at a franchise restaurant called "Twin Peaks", which I found out has nothing to do with the television show. It's a Hooter's clone— with big screen TVs and 24 kinds of beer.
posted by FJT at 10:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by FJT at 10:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can't help but feel that there's an interesting story here which is going to get buried under people's attempts to shoehorn it into some kind of commentary on their favorite pet issue.
And I can't help but feel that black people are treated substantially different from white people by the police, and this is also an interest story and should not be shoved aside when this incident paints those differences in such stark relief.
posted by maxsparber at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [113 favorites]
And I can't help but feel that black people are treated substantially different from white people by the police, and this is also an interest story and should not be shoved aside when this incident paints those differences in such stark relief.
posted by maxsparber at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [113 favorites]
I for one think the leaders of the white community need to step up and denounce this senseless violence.
posted by seymourScagnetti at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [249 favorites]
posted by seymourScagnetti at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [249 favorites]
And the cops knew something was up. Like... the whole thing is a giant clusterfuck.
people's attempts to shoehorn it into some kind of commentary on their favorite pet issue.
I'm sorry that people's lived experiences are so easily dismissed to you.
posted by kmz at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
people's attempts to shoehorn it into some kind of commentary on their favorite pet issue.
I'm sorry that people's lived experiences are so easily dismissed to you.
posted by kmz at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
I find it interesting that our government apparently completely ignores three hundred terrorist organizations active in the U.S.
I mean, I'm looking at the definitions and I fail to see how a motorcycle gang doesn't qualify.
posted by eriko at 10:15 AM on May 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
I mean, I'm looking at the definitions and I fail to see how a motorcycle gang doesn't qualify.
posted by eriko at 10:15 AM on May 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
Twin Peaks Pulls Franchise Of Waco Restaurant After Deadly Shooting
I watched the above video and at the end the ad roll was for guns.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:16 AM on May 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
I watched the above video and at the end the ad roll was for guns.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:16 AM on May 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
The linked photo makes an interesting point, a striking contrast to the way black protestors get treated during demonstrations and other contexts that are far less violent than this mass shootout. The counterpoint is the open question of how many of the victims in Waco were killed by police bullets. I was somewhat suspicious that Waco PD more or less waded into this event with the intention of putting down a bunch of One Percenter bikers.
posted by jackbrown at 10:16 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jackbrown at 10:16 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many of these bikers came from broken homes? Why isn't the white leadership speaking out?
posted by cjorgensen at 10:18 AM on May 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 10:18 AM on May 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
They're no angels...
posted by kmz at 10:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by kmz at 10:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
can't help but feel that there's an interesting story here
So take the effort to try and tell it, rather than making vague insinuations about others' motives.
posted by aught at 10:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
So take the effort to try and tell it, rather than making vague insinuations about others' motives.
posted by aught at 10:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I demand all Christian church leaders denounce this violence. So called religion of peace.
posted by eriko at 10:22 AM on May 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by eriko at 10:22 AM on May 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
Well, according to the NYT 192 are/will be arrested, the police did not feel threatened nor were any hurt and I am not sure of the racial composition of the victims/perpetrators ( I assume few/no blacks but I don't know and would not want to label
). I think i would like to find out more, let the "smoke" settle, before I decide this is a metaphor for A, B, C or anything.
posted by rmhsinc at 10:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
). I think i would like to find out more, let the "smoke" settle, before I decide this is a metaphor for A, B, C or anything.
posted by rmhsinc at 10:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
can't help but feel that there's an interesting story here
A moose hunt gone horribly wrong.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
A moose hunt gone horribly wrong.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'm posting from work, so I couldn't locate & review the news conference given yesterday by a local police official (lieutenant?). Some of what he said felt a little...well, it's hard to decide if he was just ineloquent as a matter of stress & feeling unexpectedly put on the spot or if he was presenting his department's genuine position(s). But he did note that his department had tried to work with the restaurant management to prevent the meeting, and the management refused. That led me to wonder if that was because the management was friendly with the gangs involved, or refused because they were intimidated, or what. Interesting angle on it all, though.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
The nice thing about the franchisization of all dining establishments in the United States, is that we're approaching a unified dining experience whether you're in Fresno or Waco. I can only hope that the creeping fingers gang activity is indeed diffusing through our national economy at the scale that the FBI and various other law enforcement agencies are asserting, because then the dining experience really will be homogenous.
Just think of it, no reason to move to Waco when you can have shootings at breastaurants in Bakersfield and Des Moine, too. Coupled with telecommuting, this will flatten out the real estate market.
posted by straw at 10:28 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Just think of it, no reason to move to Waco when you can have shootings at breastaurants in Bakersfield and Des Moine, too. Coupled with telecommuting, this will flatten out the real estate market.
posted by straw at 10:28 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
The weird thing is, this biker riot didn't occur in a dingy dive bar with a dusty pool table and cigar smoke hanging in the air. It happened at a franchise restaurant called "Twin Peaks"
They were having a biker's night!
Two factors in play - boomers in the '80s who were having a mid-life crisis, and Harley Davidson rescued from bankruptcy by an employee buy-out.
You really couldn't buy a decent mass-market sportscar, as only the Japanese were making them, and only the young were buying them, and they weren't very fun to drive unless you were going fast all the time. So instead of buying the sporty convertible or pony car, to make themselves feel young and dangerous, they bought a Harley, and played at being bikers. Riding a cruiser is a lot of fun - there's no pressure to drive fast, just to enjoy a pleasant ride. The bikes were open to nearly endless amounts of customization. And when you pulled on the denim and boots, you could feel you were a dangerous renegade, even if you were an accountant.
The problem is that, sometimes, the Harley riders aren't make-believe bikers, but real ones, and they love to confuse their "Motorcycle Clubs" that are international organized crime syndicates with "Motorcycle Clubs" that are a bunch of 40-something buddies with disposable income who like riding out to their favorite restaurant on the weekends. It allows a smoke-screen of respectability... right up until the Cossacks decide to use your restaurant on "biker night" to plan a violent takeover of the Bandidos, who show up to make their opinions on the matter known.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [33 favorites]
They were having a biker's night!
Two factors in play - boomers in the '80s who were having a mid-life crisis, and Harley Davidson rescued from bankruptcy by an employee buy-out.
You really couldn't buy a decent mass-market sportscar, as only the Japanese were making them, and only the young were buying them, and they weren't very fun to drive unless you were going fast all the time. So instead of buying the sporty convertible or pony car, to make themselves feel young and dangerous, they bought a Harley, and played at being bikers. Riding a cruiser is a lot of fun - there's no pressure to drive fast, just to enjoy a pleasant ride. The bikes were open to nearly endless amounts of customization. And when you pulled on the denim and boots, you could feel you were a dangerous renegade, even if you were an accountant.
The problem is that, sometimes, the Harley riders aren't make-believe bikers, but real ones, and they love to confuse their "Motorcycle Clubs" that are international organized crime syndicates with "Motorcycle Clubs" that are a bunch of 40-something buddies with disposable income who like riding out to their favorite restaurant on the weekends. It allows a smoke-screen of respectability... right up until the Cossacks decide to use your restaurant on "biker night" to plan a violent takeover of the Bandidos, who show up to make their opinions on the matter known.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [33 favorites]
I can't help but feel that there's an interesting story here which is going to get buried under people's attempts to shoehorn it into some kind of commentary on their favorite pet issue.
Look at those pictures. Those are dozens of gang members openly wearing colors, after a multiple-homicide incident...and they're sitting around on their cell phones while cops have their backs turned. Give what we've seen with how black protesters have been treated by cops, how is that not relevant?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [60 favorites]
Look at those pictures. Those are dozens of gang members openly wearing colors, after a multiple-homicide incident...and they're sitting around on their cell phones while cops have their backs turned. Give what we've seen with how black protesters have been treated by cops, how is that not relevant?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [60 favorites]
Well, according to the NYT 192 are/will be arrested, the police did not feel threatened nor were any hurt and I am not sure of the racial composition of the victims/perpetrators. I think i would like to find out more, let the "smoke" settle, before I decide this is a metaphor for A, B, C or anything.
The fact that peaceful protesters of certain appearance were met with military-level riot cops, yet violent gangs and hate groups of another showed up and we had to wait until nine people ended up dead seems like a pretty clear metaphor to me.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
The fact that peaceful protesters of certain appearance were met with military-level riot cops, yet violent gangs and hate groups of another showed up and we had to wait until nine people ended up dead seems like a pretty clear metaphor to me.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
I find it interesting that our government apparently completely ignores three hundred terrorist organizations active in the U.S.isn't one of the major media narratives coming out of this is that it would've been a bloodier event if not for the fact the the cops WERE tracking and monitoring these gangs and basically treating them like a credible threat?
I mean sure, the govt can treat them more like terror cells and profile then harass potential recruits. But isnt considered accepted that this strategy is also problematic and radicalizes moderates?
What else should the feds be doing?
posted by bl1nk at 10:30 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I assume few/no blacks but I don't know and would not want to label
I watched the raw video for a while yesterday. Googling around now shows me pretty much the same thing. I suppose you could play, "Spot the not-white guy," but you'll have a better chance of finding Waldo.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I watched the raw video for a while yesterday. Googling around now shows me pretty much the same thing. I suppose you could play, "Spot the not-white guy," but you'll have a better chance of finding Waldo.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
People will probably ask, "Why would a bar encourage bike gangs to frequent it!?!?"
Bikers tip. Like, a lot. They want a public place to meet and realize they have to grease some palms to have a place put up with the possibility of a situation like this, however unlikely.
There is likely a place in your town that has made this bargain. They may even host a "fundraiser" for the HA's once in a while. They will likely not publicize this fact.
Also, contrary to popular belief, the big gangs actively avoid public misbehavior.
I was a solo bouncer in a not good neighborhood in Las Vegas for a while. I threw out quite a few HA's with absolutely no issues. We both knew the situation (I could call the cops, they could kill me), and they always swallowed their pride and left without so much as a shove.
When you're busy selling guns/meth/people, getting into a bar fight is not a great financial decision.
posted by lattiboy at 10:33 AM on May 18, 2015 [78 favorites]
Bikers tip. Like, a lot. They want a public place to meet and realize they have to grease some palms to have a place put up with the possibility of a situation like this, however unlikely.
There is likely a place in your town that has made this bargain. They may even host a "fundraiser" for the HA's once in a while. They will likely not publicize this fact.
Also, contrary to popular belief, the big gangs actively avoid public misbehavior.
I was a solo bouncer in a not good neighborhood in Las Vegas for a while. I threw out quite a few HA's with absolutely no issues. We both knew the situation (I could call the cops, they could kill me), and they always swallowed their pride and left without so much as a shove.
When you're busy selling guns/meth/people, getting into a bar fight is not a great financial decision.
posted by lattiboy at 10:33 AM on May 18, 2015 [78 favorites]
The fact that there has been a biker gang shootout in a restaurant in Waco only reinforces my theory that reality did actually end on 12/21/2012 and was replaced by Hollywood Screenwriter Reality.
posted by hippybear at 10:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
The fact that peaceful protesters of certain appearance are met with military-level riot cops, yet violent gangs and hate groups of another showed up we had to wait until nine people ended up dead seems like a pretty clear metaphor to me.my impression from the news stories is that the cops were monitoring the gangs and had a number of local departments on alert, waiting to see if a fight broke out. Once the fight broke out, then the police intervened with SWAT teams that were prestaged.
Of the 9 killed and 19(?) injured, it is unclear who were killed by bike gangs vs. shot by police.
posted by bl1nk at 10:35 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Zombie--OK. I am just a bit hesitant to define my reality based on a few pictures. I simply do not know the context/timing/setting or provenance of the photos
posted by rmhsinc at 10:37 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 10:37 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't understand the FPP title here at all, what does it mean?
posted by Wretch729 at 10:43 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 10:43 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
OK. I am just a bit hesitant to define my reality based on a few pictures.
This is the internet age- if you can't define your reality based on a few random pictures and incomplete reports, you're just going to get left behind.
I've got my 5,000 word rant comparing US and Singapore policing ready to go already and I haven't read anything about the situation. And why should I? I need to get my views on whatever happened out NOW.
posted by happyroach at 10:44 AM on May 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
This is the internet age- if you can't define your reality based on a few random pictures and incomplete reports, you're just going to get left behind.
I've got my 5,000 word rant comparing US and Singapore policing ready to go already and I haven't read anything about the situation. And why should I? I need to get my views on whatever happened out NOW.
posted by happyroach at 10:44 AM on May 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
One percenters (via Wikipedia):
Some outlaw motorcycle clubs can be distinguished by a 1% patch worn on the colors. This is claimed to be a reference to a comment made by the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) in which they stated that 99% of motorcyclists were law-abiding citizens, implying that the last one percent were outlaws.
posted by maxsparber at 10:45 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
Some outlaw motorcycle clubs can be distinguished by a 1% patch worn on the colors. This is claimed to be a reference to a comment made by the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) in which they stated that 99% of motorcyclists were law-abiding citizens, implying that the last one percent were outlaws.
posted by maxsparber at 10:45 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
I believe this is a deplorable thing, and there are 1,000 different discussions to be had of the failings of Texas, law enforcement approach to gang activity, differential treatment based on race, etc., but as rmhinc said, don't become indignant about nearly context-free images on twitter, because who the hell knows what that was a picture of specifically.
I would appreciate media/politicians/law enforcement consistently labeling these gang members THUGS though, as they have actually demonstrated themselves to be just that.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:50 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would appreciate media/politicians/law enforcement consistently labeling these gang members THUGS though, as they have actually demonstrated themselves to be just that.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:50 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Slap*Happy: The problem is that, sometimes, the Harley riders aren't make-believe bikers, but real ones, and they love to confuse their "Motorcycle Clubs" that are international organized crime syndicates with "Motorcycle Clubs" that are a bunch of 40-something buddies with disposable income who like riding out to their favorite restaurant on the weekends.
It's interesting to note that the most pedestrian weekend-warrior motorcycle clubs are beholden to the dominant MC clubs of their area (usually the angels) if they want to ride with any kind of patch or colors on the open road. A friend in Switzerland told me that clubs who want to incorporate in their territory must have their patches, logos, and even by laws approved by the Hells Angels. Apparently, they do this to keep the knuckleheads who watch too much Sons of Anarchy off the roads and keep them from attracting undue attention to themselves.
posted by dr_dank at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's interesting to note that the most pedestrian weekend-warrior motorcycle clubs are beholden to the dominant MC clubs of their area (usually the angels) if they want to ride with any kind of patch or colors on the open road. A friend in Switzerland told me that clubs who want to incorporate in their territory must have their patches, logos, and even by laws approved by the Hells Angels. Apparently, they do this to keep the knuckleheads who watch too much Sons of Anarchy off the roads and keep them from attracting undue attention to themselves.
posted by dr_dank at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
"I've got my 5,000 word rant comparing US and Singapore policing ready to go already and I haven't read anything about the situation. And why should I? I need to get my views on whatever happened out NOW." This may not get the most ever favored but I think it is one of the most accurate. Thanks
posted by rmhsinc at 10:57 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 10:57 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's a Hells Angels clubhouse a few blocks from my house. Our neighborhood organization made them take their sign down because they hadn't gotten it approved by the zoning board.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 10:58 AM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Ham Snadwich at 10:58 AM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
We all know better than go up against a community zoning board--life and limb pales in comparison to contention over property rights and real estate values
posted by rmhsinc at 11:01 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 11:01 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
bl1nk: "my impression from the news stories is that the cops were monitoring the gangs and had a number of local departments on alert, waiting to see if a fight broke out. Once the fight broke out, then the police intervened with SWAT teams that were prestaged."
Yet, no snipers or MRAPs like we've seen when there is no credible threat.
posted by rhizome at 11:04 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yet, no snipers or MRAPs like we've seen when there is no credible threat.
posted by rhizome at 11:04 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Some outlaw motorcycle clubs can be distinguished by a 1% patch worn on the colors.
They must be really annoyed at having their term co-opted by the global financial elite....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
They must be really annoyed at having their term co-opted by the global financial elite....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
They must be really annoyed at having their term co-opted by the global financial elite....
Game recognize game.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on May 18, 2015 [46 favorites]
Game recognize game.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on May 18, 2015 [46 favorites]
They must be really annoyed at having their term co-opted by the global financial elite....
Pretty sure it was the dirty hippies who co-opted it.
posted by Leon at 11:09 AM on May 18, 2015
Pretty sure it was the dirty hippies who co-opted it.
posted by Leon at 11:09 AM on May 18, 2015
I'm very curious about the intersection between the motorcycle clubs that are weekend warrior/mellow cookout type groups and those that are organized crime groups.
It's on my mind because there was a biker funeral in a quiet little town near me recently. I happened to drive by when it was starting and saw a group of guys in their biker jackets etc greeting each other and entering the funeral home. Dozens of bikes surrounding the funeral home, of course. I wouldn't have thought anything of it -- but then I noticed there were lookouts posted at the doors, across the street, and the streetcorners of the surrounding blocks.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's on my mind because there was a biker funeral in a quiet little town near me recently. I happened to drive by when it was starting and saw a group of guys in their biker jackets etc greeting each other and entering the funeral home. Dozens of bikes surrounding the funeral home, of course. I wouldn't have thought anything of it -- but then I noticed there were lookouts posted at the doors, across the street, and the streetcorners of the surrounding blocks.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yet, no snipers or MRAPs like we've seen when there is no credible threat.TFA mentioned that police snipers were monitoring the scene from the roof of the mall.
I am not particularly interested in hairsplitting tactics to add more to the ample evidence of police abuse in this country, but perhaps we can take it as accepted that police response in Ferguson and Baltimore was excessive and brutal; and that we can consider the problem of policing bike gangs is another societal quandry that has some overlap with racial politics but can, perhaps, be derailed by an exclusive focus on it?
posted by bl1nk at 11:22 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Waco PD claims they are going to charge all 170 people they arrested with capital murder. That would be a Texas-sized mass execution!
posted by jackbrown at 11:24 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jackbrown at 11:24 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
At the risk of being #notallbikers, I have a story about a fight at a BMW club event.
A few years ago, HOG held a national rally in Johnson City, TN. The locals were irritated by all the loud bikes and some other obnoxious behavior and were dead-set against hosting another Harley rally.
The next year the big national BMW club held its big rally (about 10,000 attendees) in Johnson City. My husband and I were vendors at BMW rally, and as we were packing up at the end of the event we started chatting with a Johnson City cop. We asked how the townspeople felt about the BMW riders; the cop said that the people he'd talked to never noticed we were in town. Then my husband asked him if the police had been called to the rally for anything.
"Yeah," he said. "We were called to the sandwich shop just over there." What for? "A fight. Two guys were fighting about global warming."
posted by workerant at 11:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [23 favorites]
A few years ago, HOG held a national rally in Johnson City, TN. The locals were irritated by all the loud bikes and some other obnoxious behavior and were dead-set against hosting another Harley rally.
The next year the big national BMW club held its big rally (about 10,000 attendees) in Johnson City. My husband and I were vendors at BMW rally, and as we were packing up at the end of the event we started chatting with a Johnson City cop. We asked how the townspeople felt about the BMW riders; the cop said that the people he'd talked to never noticed we were in town. Then my husband asked him if the police had been called to the rally for anything.
"Yeah," he said. "We were called to the sandwich shop just over there." What for? "A fight. Two guys were fighting about global warming."
posted by workerant at 11:25 AM on May 18, 2015 [23 favorites]
TFA mentioned that police snipers were monitoring the scene from the roof of the mall.
For what it's worth, I wasn't entirely clear on that in the article but my impression is that those snipers were posted post-shootout to guard the crime scene, not prior to the incident itself.
posted by cortex at 11:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, I wasn't entirely clear on that in the article but my impression is that those snipers were posted post-shootout to guard the crime scene, not prior to the incident itself.
posted by cortex at 11:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a Hells Angels clubhouse a few blocks from my house. Our neighborhood organization made them take their sign down because they hadn't gotten it approved by the zoning board.
A Hells Angels chapter used to have a storefront property in my neighborhood, across the street from the supermarket. They sold primarily t-shirts and merch with variations on the "88" or "Route 88" theme; or at least they had such merch nominally on display for sale even though I can't ever recall seeing the franchise actually open for paying customers.
They moved out of the front years ago. Its a Metro PCS store now, I think. When they were still in the area I eavesdropped on the most banal conversation once in the bagel shop on the same block between an apparent ranking HA member (who in all honestly looked completely terrifying to me), his significant other, and an acquaintance. It was basically something to the effect of:
posted by the painkiller at 11:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
A Hells Angels chapter used to have a storefront property in my neighborhood, across the street from the supermarket. They sold primarily t-shirts and merch with variations on the "88" or "Route 88" theme; or at least they had such merch nominally on display for sale even though I can't ever recall seeing the franchise actually open for paying customers.
They moved out of the front years ago. Its a Metro PCS store now, I think. When they were still in the area I eavesdropped on the most banal conversation once in the bagel shop on the same block between an apparent ranking HA member (who in all honestly looked completely terrifying to me), his significant other, and an acquaintance. It was basically something to the effect of:
HA: Hey good to see you, [friendly nickname]! Check it out, me and the old lady got a place out in the country now. You should come on up this weekend, we're having a cookout!Then they bought bagels. No lie, it was weird.
Acquaintance: Wow really? Sounds sweet! I have kids now though, so it's a bit hard for me to get out.
HA: Bring 'em along, the house has a pool! They'll love it! Everybody else is bringing their kids too, it's going to be all sorts of swell fun!
HA's SO: Yeah, I love kids! It's going to be ace!
Acquaintance: Jolly good, old bean! I'll run it by the missus but it shouldn't be a problem - text me your the address and I'll seeya there! I'll bring ginger ale and potato salad!
posted by the painkiller at 11:26 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm very curious about the intersection between the motorcycle clubs that are weekend warrior/mellow cookout type groups and those that are organized crime groups.
A clickbait article I read linked to the United Clubs of Waco calendar, which has the Twin Peaks event listed with a bunch of other innocuous sounding events. Here's the main website.
Definitely seems like the organized crime element is trying to blend into the hobbyist crowd (and succeeding?). I've heard this before, especially about HA, but was never sure what was myth and what was fact.
posted by mullacc at 11:31 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
A clickbait article I read linked to the United Clubs of Waco calendar, which has the Twin Peaks event listed with a bunch of other innocuous sounding events. Here's the main website.
Definitely seems like the organized crime element is trying to blend into the hobbyist crowd (and succeeding?). I've heard this before, especially about HA, but was never sure what was myth and what was fact.
posted by mullacc at 11:31 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
They sold primarily t-shirts and merch with variations on the "88" or "Route 88" theme;
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
posted by FJT at 11:31 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
posted by FJT at 11:31 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Biker gangs are a romanticized group of outlaws beloved for their toughness and fairness when it comes to dealing with people. They're not like those other gangsters, thugs and hoodlums who are purely pathological criminals without any kind of moral code.
posted by ChuckRamone at 11:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by ChuckRamone at 11:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I am surprised that no one seems to have picked up on the fact that the reason so many clubs were in one place is that it was a meeting of the Texas Confederation of Clubs. It's even right there on their calendar (at least for now). For those not familiar with the vatious COC's, they are a loose affiliation of clubs in each state organized under the auspices of attorney Richard Lester and his National Coalition of Motorcyclists.
It's interesting to note that the most pedestrian weekend-warrior motorcycle clubs are beholden to the dominant MC clubs of their area (usually the angels) if they want to ride with any kind of patch or colors on the open road
The COC is one of the lines of communication between the dominant club of a state and the other clubs that ride with an MC patch; note that "riding clubs" and other groups that do not fly a 3 piece patch with the letters MC on it aren't generally subject to this unwritten rule. As for which of the "big four" clubs (Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, and Pagan's) claims a given state (with some areas claimed by other clubs such as the Mongols) it varies. Texas is Bandido territory, Georgia and Florida are Outlaw territory, and South Carolina is Hell's Angel territory; these seem to be remarkably stable given the level of violence that sometimes boils over. A number of friends were at a drag race in Buffalo, New York when the Hell's Angels and Outlaws got into it; they said it was like medieval warfare, with people being beat to death with hammers and such. One of the guys I knew was grazed by a stray bullet but fortunately nothing serious.
posted by TedW at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
It's interesting to note that the most pedestrian weekend-warrior motorcycle clubs are beholden to the dominant MC clubs of their area (usually the angels) if they want to ride with any kind of patch or colors on the open road
The COC is one of the lines of communication between the dominant club of a state and the other clubs that ride with an MC patch; note that "riding clubs" and other groups that do not fly a 3 piece patch with the letters MC on it aren't generally subject to this unwritten rule. As for which of the "big four" clubs (Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, and Pagan's) claims a given state (with some areas claimed by other clubs such as the Mongols) it varies. Texas is Bandido territory, Georgia and Florida are Outlaw territory, and South Carolina is Hell's Angel territory; these seem to be remarkably stable given the level of violence that sometimes boils over. A number of friends were at a drag race in Buffalo, New York when the Hell's Angels and Outlaws got into it; they said it was like medieval warfare, with people being beat to death with hammers and such. One of the guys I knew was grazed by a stray bullet but fortunately nothing serious.
posted by TedW at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
Chuck says ironically...
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Game recognize game.
Biker gang rivalries are nothing compared to the corporate rivalries that have pitted Hooters against Twin Peaks and Twin Peaks against "Northern Exposure," the planned restaurant of—wait for it—Grand Tetons LLC. Apparently, sub-Beavis double entendres and revealingly-dressed waitstaff are closely guarded trade secrets.
"As through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:39 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Biker gang rivalries are nothing compared to the corporate rivalries that have pitted Hooters against Twin Peaks and Twin Peaks against "Northern Exposure," the planned restaurant of—wait for it—Grand Tetons LLC. Apparently, sub-Beavis double entendres and revealingly-dressed waitstaff are closely guarded trade secrets.
"As through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:39 AM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
They sold primarily t-shirts and merch with variations on the "88" or "Route 88" theme;
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting?
Angels' gear generally features 81 (HA), not 88.
posted by toxic at 11:42 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting?
Angels' gear generally features 81 (HA), not 88.
posted by toxic at 11:42 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
That was my take on it - the greeting, that is. IIRC (and I may not), the store's name had "88" in the name.
posted by the painkiller at 11:51 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was my take on it - the greeting, that is. IIRC (and I may not), the store's name had "88" in the name.
posted by the painkiller at 11:51 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean, I'm looking at the definitions and I fail to see how a motorcycle gang doesn't qualify.
Well, for one thing, they aren't Muslim and they don't speak weird foreign languages. /s
posted by theorique at 11:57 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, for one thing, they aren't Muslim and they don't speak weird foreign languages. /s
posted by theorique at 11:57 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm very curious about the intersection between the motorcycle clubs that are weekend warrior/mellow cookout type groups and those that are organized crime groups.
No intersection whatsoever. Motorcyclists talk to each other all the time; you pull up on a bike and people will come out of the crowd just to chat about their bikes. Motorcyclists absolutely do self-segregate into distinct crowds and there's this element of figuring out what classification any motorcyclist you meet falls into. "Motorcycle gang member" is almost mythical as a category, it is so rare. The gangiest-looking motorcyclists, the ones with the colors and patches like in the movies, tend to be Christian groups, not criminal groups.
The main reason to avoid the groups with the colors and patches, is because they are slow and incredibly loud, and they get childish about being passed. I'm not going to sit tamely at the back of their parade, having my ears assaulted, waiting for the chance to pass all 50 of them at once, and they're not going to open up space in the middle of their pack to let some chick on a bike they don't approve of, pass them two or three at a time. So when I fetch up behind a color parade I just turn around, or take a different road, or stop for lunch. I don't stop where they are stopped, because I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't avoid them because I think they're criminals. I avoid them because they are criminally boring.
posted by elizilla at 12:01 PM on May 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
No intersection whatsoever. Motorcyclists talk to each other all the time; you pull up on a bike and people will come out of the crowd just to chat about their bikes. Motorcyclists absolutely do self-segregate into distinct crowds and there's this element of figuring out what classification any motorcyclist you meet falls into. "Motorcycle gang member" is almost mythical as a category, it is so rare. The gangiest-looking motorcyclists, the ones with the colors and patches like in the movies, tend to be Christian groups, not criminal groups.
The main reason to avoid the groups with the colors and patches, is because they are slow and incredibly loud, and they get childish about being passed. I'm not going to sit tamely at the back of their parade, having my ears assaulted, waiting for the chance to pass all 50 of them at once, and they're not going to open up space in the middle of their pack to let some chick on a bike they don't approve of, pass them two or three at a time. So when I fetch up behind a color parade I just turn around, or take a different road, or stop for lunch. I don't stop where they are stopped, because I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't avoid them because I think they're criminals. I avoid them because they are criminally boring.
posted by elizilla at 12:01 PM on May 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
That was my take on it - the greeting, that is. IIRC (and I may not), the store's name had "88" in the name.
Are your sure it wasn't 81? For the 8th and 1st letters of the alphabet, H and A. Other HA signifiers include "red and white" (club colors) and "Big Red Machine". Unless your are a member you don't want to be caught wearing anything that says "Hells Angels" or has any club insigniea on it as per the disclaimer at the bottom of the Big Red Machine link: Hells Angels and the deathhead logo are trademarks ownes by the Hells Angels Motorcycle Corporation and registered in the United States and various other countries. Should we find you using any of these we will hunt you down and hurt you."
posted by TedW at 12:02 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
That was my take on it - the greeting, that is. IIRC (and I may not), the store's name had "88" in the name.
Are your sure it wasn't 81? For the 8th and 1st letters of the alphabet, H and A. Other HA signifiers include "red and white" (club colors) and "Big Red Machine". Unless your are a member you don't want to be caught wearing anything that says "Hells Angels" or has any club insigniea on it as per the disclaimer at the bottom of the Big Red Machine link: Hells Angels and the deathhead logo are trademarks ownes by the Hells Angels Motorcycle Corporation and registered in the United States and various other countries. Should we find you using any of these we will hunt you down and hurt you."
posted by TedW at 12:02 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some outlaw motorcycle clubs can be distinguished by a 1% patch worn on the colors.
I thought that media myth was debunked way back when Hunter Thompson wrote his book about the Hell's Angel's. In 1966.
posted by Gelatin at 12:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought that media myth was debunked way back when Hunter Thompson wrote his book about the Hell's Angel's. In 1966.
posted by Gelatin at 12:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
They sold primarily t-shirts and merch with variations on the "88" or "Route 88" theme;
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
Or did you mean "Route 81," as in, the 8th and 1st letters of the alphabet, denoting HA?
Also, I think it's important to clear something up about the differing treatment among Ferguson and Baltimore protesters and the MCs in question here. In mass protests, most people look like average citizens and it is difficult to differentiate between who is committing violent acts and who is peacefully protesting.
In the case of 1%er clubs, the members are deeply committed to the organization and to each other. They are all going to stick around for their fellow club members, and they will all offer to take a murder rap. No one is going to throw off their colors and run away just because the cops showed up. More likely, they would rather be booked and jailed with their brothers as a show of solidarity. That is also why they are peacefully not resisting arrest and why they are not actively fighting with cops in those pictures. The two groups just don't make a good comparison.
- I demand all Christian church leaders denounce this violence. So called religion of peace.
-I mean sure, the govt can treat them more like terror cells and profile then harass potential recruits. But isnt considered accepted that this strategy is also problematic and radicalizes moderates?
What else should the feds be doing?
Members of the "Big Four" outlaw motorcycle clubs are slapped with terror charges almost every time they're arrested. These clubs are constantly monitored by the feds. It makes it hard to be around them at times. I build custom choppers and a friend of mine let me use an extra space that his club had to show my bike at my state's largest competition. A Hell's Angel kid came up and we shot the breeze for a bit because he liked my bike. Suddenly I noticed that there were several obviously "non-biker" guys standing in the wings of the crowd with earpieces. I asked him about it and he told me he had gotten in a barfight about two weeks prior. Standard fist fight about some bullshit. Because he was wearing his patch at the time, the cops were able to get a search warrant for his house because he was part of a "known terrorist organization." Surprise, surprise, they turned up a bunch of meth and guns and somehow he was out on 300 grand to be at this bike show.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
Or did you mean "Route 81," as in, the 8th and 1st letters of the alphabet, denoting HA?
Also, I think it's important to clear something up about the differing treatment among Ferguson and Baltimore protesters and the MCs in question here. In mass protests, most people look like average citizens and it is difficult to differentiate between who is committing violent acts and who is peacefully protesting.
In the case of 1%er clubs, the members are deeply committed to the organization and to each other. They are all going to stick around for their fellow club members, and they will all offer to take a murder rap. No one is going to throw off their colors and run away just because the cops showed up. More likely, they would rather be booked and jailed with their brothers as a show of solidarity. That is also why they are peacefully not resisting arrest and why they are not actively fighting with cops in those pictures. The two groups just don't make a good comparison.
- I demand all Christian church leaders denounce this violence. So called religion of peace.
-I mean sure, the govt can treat them more like terror cells and profile then harass potential recruits. But isnt considered accepted that this strategy is also problematic and radicalizes moderates?
What else should the feds be doing?
Members of the "Big Four" outlaw motorcycle clubs are slapped with terror charges almost every time they're arrested. These clubs are constantly monitored by the feds. It makes it hard to be around them at times. I build custom choppers and a friend of mine let me use an extra space that his club had to show my bike at my state's largest competition. A Hell's Angel kid came up and we shot the breeze for a bit because he liked my bike. Suddenly I noticed that there were several obviously "non-biker" guys standing in the wings of the crowd with earpieces. I asked him about it and he told me he had gotten in a barfight about two weeks prior. Standard fist fight about some bullshit. Because he was wearing his patch at the time, the cops were able to get a search warrant for his house because he was part of a "known terrorist organization." Surprise, surprise, they turned up a bunch of meth and guns and somehow he was out on 300 grand to be at this bike show.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
The terrorist comparison is not that far off:
But Steve Cook says the clean-cut, fun-loving claim is a charade. Cook is a Kansas City-area police officer who says he’s worked undercover in gangs affiliated with the Bandidos.posted by FJT at 12:05 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
“These guys are organized crime, but they are also domestic terrorists,” he told The Washington Post. “These guys are heavily involved in methamphetamine, cocaine, marijuana, motorcycle theft. Those are all primary businesses for them. The thing is, these guys want to put on this appearance, ‘Oh we’re just motorcycle enthusiasts and we just like to ride bikes.’ The evidence is quite to the contrary.”
This weekend’s shootout between rival biker gangs in Waco, Texas has reopened the debate about gun control in the US. But experience shows this is the only country in the world that reacts to mass shootings by relaxing gun laws.
posted by adamvasco at 12:06 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 12:06 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
The terrorist comparison is not that far off:
But Steve Cook says the clean-cut, fun-loving claim is a charade. Cook is a Kansas City-area police officer who says he’s worked undercover in gangs affiliated with the Bandidos.
“These guys are organized crime, but they are also domestic terrorists,” he told The Washington Post. “These guys are heavily involved in methamphetamine, cocaine, marijuana, motorcycle theft. Those are all primary businesses for them. The thing is, these guys want to put on this appearance, ‘Oh we’re just motorcycle enthusiasts and we just like to ride bikes.’ The evidence is quite to the contrary.”
Yes, cops will say this, but it's a little more complicated than that. There is no requirement that to be a member of the club you have to do any of those things, and not every member is necessarily involved in criminal activity. The club provides a good framework for running drugs and guns, but so does your local Elk's club for that matter. That is why the feds had such a hard time bringing racketeering charges against MCs in the 80s.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:12 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
But Steve Cook says the clean-cut, fun-loving claim is a charade. Cook is a Kansas City-area police officer who says he’s worked undercover in gangs affiliated with the Bandidos.
“These guys are organized crime, but they are also domestic terrorists,” he told The Washington Post. “These guys are heavily involved in methamphetamine, cocaine, marijuana, motorcycle theft. Those are all primary businesses for them. The thing is, these guys want to put on this appearance, ‘Oh we’re just motorcycle enthusiasts and we just like to ride bikes.’ The evidence is quite to the contrary.”
Yes, cops will say this, but it's a little more complicated than that. There is no requirement that to be a member of the club you have to do any of those things, and not every member is necessarily involved in criminal activity. The club provides a good framework for running drugs and guns, but so does your local Elk's club for that matter. That is why the feds had such a hard time bringing racketeering charges against MCs in the 80s.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:12 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler) or the actual Route 88?
I wonder if this merchandise is popular with Asian-Americans. Not because they are Nazi-nostalgic, you understand.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if this merchandise is popular with Asian-Americans. Not because they are Nazi-nostalgic, you understand.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
This weekend’s shootout between rival biker gangs in Waco, Texas has reopened the debate about gun control in the US.
You think it reopened the debate? I haven't heard much talk of that. Maybe a few jokes.
It basically takes a school shooting to get people to seriously discuss gun control, and one side has lost that debate, so they don't bother showing up anymore.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:14 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
You think it reopened the debate? I haven't heard much talk of that. Maybe a few jokes.
It basically takes a school shooting to get people to seriously discuss gun control, and one side has lost that debate, so they don't bother showing up anymore.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:14 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The HA and rival gangs are vermin. They are engaged in the most utterly depraved practices, from child prostitution to beating addicts to death with hammers. I can not think of a worse cancer in our society. Except maybe Cheney.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 12:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
@Demogorgon @Tedw - Sure I might be mistaken (it was several years ago, after all) but I distinctly remember wondering what the significance of "88" was when I realized that the store had been selling items with that common theme. Once I educated myself on the significance of "88" plus the conversation I overheard, it also made me wonder what was going on with this particular chapter and if they even were aware of what 88 meant themselves, or even if they were a 'legit' HA chapter at all. Like I said, once I put everything together the whole thing seemed really weird, and they and the store disappeared from the neighborhood not long after that. But yeah, I recall it as being "88". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by the painkiller at 12:18 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the painkiller at 12:18 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm very curious about the intersection between the motorcycle clubs that are weekend warrior/mellow cookout type groups and those that are organized crime groups.
Mr. Sophie1 has belonged to an MC for about 7 years now and wears his patches proudly. His only vehicle here in Los Angeles is a Goldwing 1800. I ride out with the club all the time. The club has never been harassed by 1%ers and in fact, we've met and talked with a few on the road and have been given a great deal of respect. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're a bunch of boy scouts, but in the 56 years of the club's existence, no one that I'm aware of has ever noted being harassed by 1%ers.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mr. Sophie1 has belonged to an MC for about 7 years now and wears his patches proudly. His only vehicle here in Los Angeles is a Goldwing 1800. I ride out with the club all the time. The club has never been harassed by 1%ers and in fact, we've met and talked with a few on the road and have been given a great deal of respect. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're a bunch of boy scouts, but in the 56 years of the club's existence, no one that I'm aware of has ever noted being harassed by 1%ers.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is no requirement that to be a member of the club you have to do any of those things, and not every member is necessarily involved in criminal activity.
The requirement is that you have to okay with… no, let me re-phrase, support a club that engages in the most heinous shit that goes down in our nation. There is no limit on the depravity and cruelty inflicted by the clubs enforcers and syncophants. They prey upon our weakest and most vulnerable. You have to be an uncaring and selfish sick fuck to join those clubs.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
The requirement is that you have to okay with… no, let me re-phrase, support a club that engages in the most heinous shit that goes down in our nation. There is no limit on the depravity and cruelty inflicted by the clubs enforcers and syncophants. They prey upon our weakest and most vulnerable. You have to be an uncaring and selfish sick fuck to join those clubs.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, cops will say this, but it's a little more complicated than that. There is no requirement that to be a member of the club you have to do any of those things, and not every member is necessarily involved in criminal activity. The club provides a good framework for running drugs and guns, but so does your local Elk's club for that matter. That is why the feds had such a hard time bringing racketeering charges against MCs in the 80s.
Okay but like, I haven't heard about the Elks meeting up with the Masons and Shriners or whoever and turning a restaurant into a war zone. I would find such a situation rather more surprising than this one. You know, for what it's worth.
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 12:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Okay but like, I haven't heard about the Elks meeting up with the Masons and Shriners or whoever and turning a restaurant into a war zone. I would find such a situation rather more surprising than this one. You know, for what it's worth.
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 12:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I went to many, many biker events as a kid because my dad rode with a club. I'm 110% sure he wasn't involved in anything sketchy, but I wonder how many real gang members were around. As far as I could tell, most of his buddies were blue collar weekend warriors, but there were also plenty of rougher sorts. Lots of confederate flag and swastika bullshit for sale (again, not my dad), lots of drinking, a few fistfights.
posted by desjardins at 12:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 12:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Look at those pictures. Those are dozens of gang members openly wearing colors, after a multiple-homicide incident...and they're sitting around on their cell phones while cops have their backs turned. Give what we've seen with how black protesters have been treated by cops, how is that not relevant?
Yeah, but they have friends who are armed, mobile, organized and dangerous, and a national network sympathetic to their cause. Anyone who crosses them is definitely worried about retaliation. Race, while it may be a factor, isn't the only one.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:31 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but they have friends who are armed, mobile, organized and dangerous, and a national network sympathetic to their cause. Anyone who crosses them is definitely worried about retaliation. Race, while it may be a factor, isn't the only one.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:31 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought it was kind of lame of the cops to blame the restaurant management for not policing and turning away a couple hundred potentially armed patrons.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
The requirement is that you have to okay with… no, let me re-phrase, support a club that engages in the most heinous shit that goes down in our nation. There is no limit on the depravity and cruelty inflicted by the clubs enforcers and syncophants. They prey upon our weakest and most vulnerable. You have to be an uncaring and selfish sick fuck to join those clubs.
Or maybe just someone who is already outside the protection of the law and has nowhere else to go? I don't know what you've read in comic books, but your average 1%er is closer to a freewheeling hedonist dropout than some criminal mastermind. Settle down there, Roger Corman.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or maybe just someone who is already outside the protection of the law and has nowhere else to go? I don't know what you've read in comic books, but your average 1%er is closer to a freewheeling hedonist dropout than some criminal mastermind. Settle down there, Roger Corman.
posted by Demogorgon at 12:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
> When you're busy selling guns/meth/people, getting into a bar fight is not a great financial decision.
But if you're dealing and also sampling the merch your decision making may not be at its best.
posted by jfuller at 12:40 PM on May 18, 2015
But if you're dealing and also sampling the merch your decision making may not be at its best.
posted by jfuller at 12:40 PM on May 18, 2015
Settle down there, Roger Corman.
I was more picturing a fat southern sheriff, possibly played by Rod Steiger.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:45 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was more picturing a fat southern sheriff, possibly played by Rod Steiger.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:45 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would find such a situation rather more surprising than this one. You know, for what it's worth.
especially if they all showed up in those tiny little cars
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
especially if they all showed up in those tiny little cars
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
Yeah, but they have friends who are armed, mobile, organized and dangerous, and a national network sympathetic to their cause. Anyone who crosses them is definitely worried about retaliation. Race, while it may be a factor, isn't the only one.
really, tho? remind me what has happened to similar armed mobile organized and dangerous groups that were not white.
MOVE? panthers? the us govt decided that giving free breakfast to children was a terrorist activity, for fuck's sake.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:02 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
really, tho? remind me what has happened to similar armed mobile organized and dangerous groups that were not white.
MOVE? panthers? the us govt decided that giving free breakfast to children was a terrorist activity, for fuck's sake.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:02 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
Plenty of observations have been made about the difference between police reaction to this shooting compared to protests in Baltimore and Ferguson.
1percenters have been known to kill people, even cops
protesters - not so much
1percenters have a certain way of dressing to express their brotherhood, as do cops
protesters - not so much
cops, in many areas, can be considered to be a gang in themselves - even a criminal gang - and even among opposing gangs, there can be a certain amount of mutual respect and willingness to see the similarities - and to strive against one another according to unwritten rules - such as bikers not being more violent towards cops than they have to be and visa versa
protesters - not so much
also, criminal biker gangs with cell phones surrounded by police are probably talking to their well-paid lawyers and the cops know it
protesters - not so much
i suppose one could also point out that waco probably isn't anything like ferguson or baltimore - for one thing, as bad as the police actions in ferguson and baltimore were, they're nothing compared to what the federal government did near waco decades back - or what the retribution in oklahoma city was
context matters
posted by pyramid termite at 1:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
1percenters have been known to kill people, even cops
protesters - not so much
1percenters have a certain way of dressing to express their brotherhood, as do cops
protesters - not so much
cops, in many areas, can be considered to be a gang in themselves - even a criminal gang - and even among opposing gangs, there can be a certain amount of mutual respect and willingness to see the similarities - and to strive against one another according to unwritten rules - such as bikers not being more violent towards cops than they have to be and visa versa
protesters - not so much
also, criminal biker gangs with cell phones surrounded by police are probably talking to their well-paid lawyers and the cops know it
protesters - not so much
i suppose one could also point out that waco probably isn't anything like ferguson or baltimore - for one thing, as bad as the police actions in ferguson and baltimore were, they're nothing compared to what the federal government did near waco decades back - or what the retribution in oklahoma city was
context matters
posted by pyramid termite at 1:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
(ok actually they called it something like an activity whose deliberate purpose was to support communist overthrow of the government, which is a sad parallel to amorphous charges of "terrorism" made today - an often baseless catchall accusation meant to disenfranchise and discredit minorities doing anything other than being quiet and obedient)
posted by poffin boffin at 1:11 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:11 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Comment removed; talking about what you feel is needed context is fine, but please take it down a notch in how you do that and avoid shouting at other users.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, cops will say this, but it's a little more complicated than that. There is no requirement that to be a member of the club you have to do any of those things, and not every member is necessarily involved in criminal activity. The club provides a good framework for running drugs and guns, but so does your local Elk's club for that matter. That is why the feds had such a hard time bringing racketeering charges against MCs in the 80s.
"I don't participate in drug smuggling or teenage prostitution, I just enjoy the company of those who do"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:35 PM on May 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
"I don't participate in drug smuggling or teenage prostitution, I just enjoy the company of those who do"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:35 PM on May 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
The Banditos really freak me right out. Here's a very good Texas Monthly article, The Gangs All Here, by Skip Hollandsworth from a few years back about their growing influence.
posted by dog food sugar at 1:53 PM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by dog food sugar at 1:53 PM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
Biker gangs are insidious. An HA affiliate just opened a clubhouse in a suburb close by. Who knows what they are up to.
posted by Nevin at 1:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 1:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
really, tho? remind me what has happened to similar armed mobile organized and dangerous groups that were not white
That was not the comparison being drawn. The comparison being drawn was about this incident and the treatment of Baltimore protesters.
But if you want to go there, the Black Panthers were actually targeting and killing cops. One of their oft-chanted slogans was "Off The Pigs!" and they made good on it. And it does appear (although facts are far from clear) that the police ended up shooting at least some of the biker gang members here, and that the police were tracking them before the shooting event. And neither MOVE nor the Panthers qualify as "mobile" in the same way; the first was a strictly Philly-based organization and the other had regional chapters but didn't roam around as a matter of habit. I also don't see much -- well, any, really -- political content in the biker gangs' activities.
I don't deny that both MOVE and the Panthers were victims of government persecution (obviously), but I think this "but racial disparities, tho!" rhetorical move really obscures more than it enlightens in this case. This is not the controlled experiment you think it is.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:01 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
That was not the comparison being drawn. The comparison being drawn was about this incident and the treatment of Baltimore protesters.
But if you want to go there, the Black Panthers were actually targeting and killing cops. One of their oft-chanted slogans was "Off The Pigs!" and they made good on it. And it does appear (although facts are far from clear) that the police ended up shooting at least some of the biker gang members here, and that the police were tracking them before the shooting event. And neither MOVE nor the Panthers qualify as "mobile" in the same way; the first was a strictly Philly-based organization and the other had regional chapters but didn't roam around as a matter of habit. I also don't see much -- well, any, really -- political content in the biker gangs' activities.
I don't deny that both MOVE and the Panthers were victims of government persecution (obviously), but I think this "but racial disparities, tho!" rhetorical move really obscures more than it enlightens in this case. This is not the controlled experiment you think it is.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:01 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I don't participate in drug smuggling or teenage prostitution, I just enjoy the company of those who do"
Sure, why not? So do jailers, bail bondsmen, defense lawyers and judges.
posted by Demogorgon at 2:16 PM on May 18, 2015
So do jailers, bail bondsmen, defense lawyers and judges.
This will apparently surprise you, but they do not enjoy the company of such people. Ask some of them.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
This will apparently surprise you, but they do not enjoy the company of such people. Ask some of them.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
My point is that crime is a two-sided racket for everyone involved.
posted by Demogorgon at 2:44 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by Demogorgon at 2:44 PM on May 18, 2015
Who would have thought that groups calling themselves "Bandidos" and "Cossacks" would ever be aggressive?
posted by rhizome at 3:22 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:22 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
“These guys are organized crime, but they are also domestic terrorists,” he told The Washington Post. “These guys are heavily involved in methamphetamine, cocaine, marijuana, motorcycle theft. Those are all primary businesses for them.
That's a novel definition of “terrorism”...
posted by acb at 3:26 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's a novel definition of “terrorism”...
posted by acb at 3:26 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
The rhetoric against them has been totally over the top.
posted by rhizome at 3:30 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by rhizome at 3:30 PM on May 18, 2015
OMFG. In BC, this group fed women to pigs. Bashed a woman to death with a hammer. Killed a guy by slowly cutting him into bits using snips. And you call it rhetoric? Jesus fucked Christ, I can not believe this place sometimes.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 3:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
What's that saying? If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. But if, as inTexas, carrying guns openly is made ridiculously legal, then outlaws will surely have guns. And this is what happens.
posted by beagle at 3:54 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by beagle at 3:54 PM on May 18, 2015
five fresh fish, can you post links?
Also, there appears to be some distinction between actual casual motorcycle clubs and the badass criminal organization clubs, and possibly even some variation within the criminal organizations. Which I think you're eliding, perhaps?
Also, generally drug-runners are not considered to be terrorists, which is the rhetoric you appear to be referring to. They can be, but that's not the starting point.
posted by suelac at 3:58 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, there appears to be some distinction between actual casual motorcycle clubs and the badass criminal organization clubs, and possibly even some variation within the criminal organizations. Which I think you're eliding, perhaps?
Also, generally drug-runners are not considered to be terrorists, which is the rhetoric you appear to be referring to. They can be, but that's not the starting point.
posted by suelac at 3:58 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, neat. So which one of these gang members stood up and protected the innocent visitors and members of their community?
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:06 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:06 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also from Texas Monthly: On #WacoThugs, Biker Gangs and White-on-White Crime.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
...and that'll make it so much easier to see who the outlaws are.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
...and that'll make it so much easier to see who the outlaws are.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Black gangs are better than white gangs" is a weird tack to take, Johann. Pretty sure they all suck even if their members occasionally do decent things.
posted by desjardins at 4:21 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by desjardins at 4:21 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
In 2006 some Winnipeg Bandidos led by the psychotic Wayne Kelestine tortured and executed 8 Toronto Bandidos (a "patch-pulling") in a farm outside of London, Ontario, the worst mass-murder in the province's history. Some Globe links (chronological): Multiple bodies found in Ontario farmer's field; Death through a long lens - and close up; Bikers' wounds suggest surprising cruelty; Bandido informant recounts preparations for gruesome rendezvous; World boss [Houston, Texas] ordered hits on Canadians.
posted by Flashman at 4:28 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Flashman at 4:28 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
But if, as inTexas, carrying guns openly is made ridiculously legal
At least two and not more than ten years in prison is ridiculously legal? Open carry in a bar is a 3rd degree felony in Texas.
posted by switchbladenaif at 4:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
At least two and not more than ten years in prison is ridiculously legal? Open carry in a bar is a 3rd degree felony in Texas.
posted by switchbladenaif at 4:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Where's Frankie, where's Anita?
posted by clavdivs at 4:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 4:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
> "Black gangs are better than white gangs" is a weird tack to take, Johann. Pretty sure they all suck even if their members occasionally do decent things.
And "Black gangs are better than white gangs" is a weird read of my original comment, desjardins. But thanks for letting us know how you really feel.
I won't write an essay about the history of internal and external pressures and identity issues that influence the membership and behaviors of various gangs in America, but if the relatively more justifiable anger and empirical evidence of reduced collateral damage and victimization fits...
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:48 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
And "Black gangs are better than white gangs" is a weird read of my original comment, desjardins. But thanks for letting us know how you really feel.
I won't write an essay about the history of internal and external pressures and identity issues that influence the membership and behaviors of various gangs in America, but if the relatively more justifiable anger and empirical evidence of reduced collateral damage and victimization fits...
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:48 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just hope every member of violent, drug peddling biker gangs isn't smeared just because of the actions of a few dozen misguided individuals during a violent melee. #notallbikergangs
posted by Renoroc at 5:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Renoroc at 5:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ted W: Unless your are a member you don't want to be caught wearing anything that says "Hells Angels" or has any club insigniea on it as per the disclaimer at the bottom of the Big Red Machine link: Hells Angels and the deathhead logo are trademarks ownes by the Hells Angels Motorcycle Corporation and registered in the United States and various other countries. Should we find you using any of these we will hunt you down and hurt you."
I remember in Chuck Zitos book that even the tattoos are property of the club and they claim it one way or another, either by black ink coverup or power tool assistance if you're ousted on bad terms.
posted by dr_dank at 5:25 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I remember in Chuck Zitos book that even the tattoos are property of the club and they claim it one way or another, either by black ink coverup or power tool assistance if you're ousted on bad terms.
posted by dr_dank at 5:25 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Weirdly, I was watching an old episode of Sons of Anarchy yesterday, and then saw this news while taking a break. The juxtaposition was a bit odd, to say the least. I'm going to guess that most of the nine killed were by the police, since they have training and more firepower, but I also don't doubt that they were fired upon.
It feels like I used to see biker gangs a lot more when I was a kid. I don't know if that is because of where we lived then, or if they were simply more visible then and these days are taking a much less public approach. I also know a few people who are in motorcycle clubs, complete with patches and vests and so on, but that are entirely composed of white collar dudes in their 40s and 50s who like go on group rides on the weekend, drink way too much beer after, and then wobble their way home. They aren't affiliated with any gangs and don't commit any crimes worse than a DUI, but they love the aesthetic and probably can recite key episodes of SOA by heart.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:49 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
It feels like I used to see biker gangs a lot more when I was a kid. I don't know if that is because of where we lived then, or if they were simply more visible then and these days are taking a much less public approach. I also know a few people who are in motorcycle clubs, complete with patches and vests and so on, but that are entirely composed of white collar dudes in their 40s and 50s who like go on group rides on the weekend, drink way too much beer after, and then wobble their way home. They aren't affiliated with any gangs and don't commit any crimes worse than a DUI, but they love the aesthetic and probably can recite key episodes of SOA by heart.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:49 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Re: five fresh fish citation needed.
Robert Pickton, The BC Canada millionaire scumbag who fed desperate street prostitutes and drug addicts to his hogs, was not a biker, although he might have owned a bike or bikes.
The crap that 1%er bike gangs have done to support their drug and other violent rackets is bad enough without embroidering the facts.
posted by Dreidl at 6:18 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Robert Pickton, The BC Canada millionaire scumbag who fed desperate street prostitutes and drug addicts to his hogs, was not a biker, although he might have owned a bike or bikes.
The crap that 1%er bike gangs have done to support their drug and other violent rackets is bad enough without embroidering the facts.
posted by Dreidl at 6:18 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
It feels like I used to see biker gangs a lot more when I was a kid.
I'm always surprised to be reminded that they're still a thing- I associate them with the 60's - 80's.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm always surprised to be reminded that they're still a thing- I associate them with the 60's - 80's.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
They tend to have big chapters in decaying industrial cities. One brother of mine was a 'hangaround' in one city, another was a lawyer for them. Like the Crips and Bloods they dont come from nowhere.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 6:41 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a great period piece about bikers and what they're about, for better or worse.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I always know spring has arrived when I see my first Hell's Angel driving along highway 401.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:56 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Some speculations, increasingly speculative:
-All deaths from police gunfire.
-Police escalated the situation from a melee to a gunfight.
-Fight started by police provocateur.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:04 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
-All deaths from police gunfire.
-Police escalated the situation from a melee to a gunfight.
-Fight started by police provocateur.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:04 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Source for "all killed by police" : http://www.agingrebel.com/12873
posted by grubby at 8:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by grubby at 8:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
five fresh fish, can you post links?
I think there is a cultural disconnect here. In Canada biker gangs ARE organized crime and have infiltrated everything from the ports to the police. That's why it is so weird here to see Baltimore protesters compared to the Waco bikers. They're not members of a motorcycle club, they are a cancer on society.
posted by Nevin at 8:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think there is a cultural disconnect here. In Canada biker gangs ARE organized crime and have infiltrated everything from the ports to the police. That's why it is so weird here to see Baltimore protesters compared to the Waco bikers. They're not members of a motorcycle club, they are a cancer on society.
posted by Nevin at 8:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I might add that I am very nervous now about what I just wrote. You never know who is affiliated with Hells; it could even be some MeFites in this thread. You never know. Any Canadian is freaked the hell out by them.
posted by Nevin at 8:19 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Nevin at 8:19 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
One of the more dismaying things about the biker massacre is that a Texas person I sort of know on Facebook decided to post a bunch of govno about how ISIL is all over Texas and the cops and the bikers all need to join forces and be ready to fight ISIL, and shouldn't be hurting each other...
Total b.s. and it is infuriating.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:25 PM on May 18, 2015
Total b.s. and it is infuriating.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:25 PM on May 18, 2015
who speaks for the sidecar, who?
posted by clavdivs at 8:50 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 8:50 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
When have cops not been up the ass of criminal motorcycle gangs? The bikers started a shootout. The police ended it. Nine dead, some almost certainly killed by officers on scene. Over 100 bikers being charged with murder. Global news story. What else was law enforcement supposed to do? There's no doubt that cops lean harder on the poor, and on minorities, but this turf war is not an example of it.
posted by Beholder at 8:52 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 8:52 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
CNN says four out of nine killed by police FWIW.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:01 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:01 PM on May 18, 2015
Or maybe just someone who is already outside the protection of the law and has nowhere else to go? I don't know what you've read in comic books, but your average 1%er is closer to a freewheeling hedonist dropout than some criminal mastermind. Settle down there, Roger Corman.
I have to strongly disagree with this. The HAs have been wreaking havoc in various places in Canada for at least a couple of decades. See Quebec Biker Wars, for example. They are scum. They're also connected to the Montreal Rizzuto Crime Family.
Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but your dismissive statement comes across as really uninformed and naive.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 9:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
I have to strongly disagree with this. The HAs have been wreaking havoc in various places in Canada for at least a couple of decades. See Quebec Biker Wars, for example. They are scum. They're also connected to the Montreal Rizzuto Crime Family.
Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but your dismissive statement comes across as really uninformed and naive.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 9:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
That's why it is so weird here to see Baltimore protesters compared to the Waco bikers.
The comparison is about the wildly different treatment police offer "suspects" depending on race, regardless of other factors. Again, these guys are part of a criminal gang, wearing colors, people have died...and the cops haven't got them all sitting with their hands bound. Instead, they're just chillin' out waiting like the bar hasn't opened yet. Conversely, protesters get hosed down with pepper spray and tear gas.
I'm more than willing to concede that this shootout wasn't on the cops' schedule, so they didn't have time to get kitted out with their riot gear and all. But I'm seeing pic after pic of a solid wall of gang members who seriously outnumber the cops after a serious, violent incident, and they aren't bound up for "officer safety" if nothing else.
And y'know what? Maybe the cops in Waco did make the right calls here. Maybe they really are handling this wisely. (Maybe--I can hope naively--that Waco's cops aren't even horrible racists themselves and they'd treat black suspects the same! I can dream!) But that only puts the treatment shown to far less violent black suspects across the country into an even more damning light.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:00 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
The comparison is about the wildly different treatment police offer "suspects" depending on race, regardless of other factors. Again, these guys are part of a criminal gang, wearing colors, people have died...and the cops haven't got them all sitting with their hands bound. Instead, they're just chillin' out waiting like the bar hasn't opened yet. Conversely, protesters get hosed down with pepper spray and tear gas.
I'm more than willing to concede that this shootout wasn't on the cops' schedule, so they didn't have time to get kitted out with their riot gear and all. But I'm seeing pic after pic of a solid wall of gang members who seriously outnumber the cops after a serious, violent incident, and they aren't bound up for "officer safety" if nothing else.
And y'know what? Maybe the cops in Waco did make the right calls here. Maybe they really are handling this wisely. (Maybe--I can hope naively--that Waco's cops aren't even horrible racists themselves and they'd treat black suspects the same! I can dream!) But that only puts the treatment shown to far less violent black suspects across the country into an even more damning light.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:00 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh I can definitely confirm that the Canadian equivalents of these biker gangs are not all nice guys who organize toy donation drives for disadvantaged youth. By some weird twist of fate, I had just moved to Québec at the time a Hells Angel was on the run from the cops for multiple murders - and he happened to have the same first and last name as me.
This didn't cause any legal complications, on account of him being a giant, bearded scary looking dude and me, not so much. But the first time I heard about this guy, I was riding in a cab with a friend of mine. The cabbie was listening to the radio, and the news was on, which was of course in French. At the time I didn't understand French, so all I understood was "frenchfrenchfrenchfrenchfrench MY NAME frenchfrenchfrench LA POLICE frenchfrenchfrenchfrenchfrench MY NAME" and I was like whoah what the fuck. I turned to my friend and he smiled and said, "The cops are onto you, mec. Should've gotten a work visa!"
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
This didn't cause any legal complications, on account of him being a giant, bearded scary looking dude and me, not so much. But the first time I heard about this guy, I was riding in a cab with a friend of mine. The cabbie was listening to the radio, and the news was on, which was of course in French. At the time I didn't understand French, so all I understood was "frenchfrenchfrenchfrenchfrench MY NAME frenchfrenchfrench LA POLICE frenchfrenchfrenchfrenchfrench MY NAME" and I was like whoah what the fuck. I turned to my friend and he smiled and said, "The cops are onto you, mec. Should've gotten a work visa!"
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I might add that I am very nervous now about what I just wrote. You never know who is affiliated with Hells; it could even be some MeFites in this thread. You never know. Any Canadian is freaked the hell out by them.
So...this sucks and it is definitely a thing that happens. The history of outlaw motorcycle clubs is long and storied. I feel like there are a lot of good reads on the subject that any Mefite could enjoy. I recommend starting with Hunter S. Thompson's Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga. Then maybe read some of the biographies written by 1%ers themselves.
One of the problematic things about these clubs we're talking about, is that the mystique perpetrated by media and general public hysteria contributes to an influx of prospective members who want to live out what they read in the papers. There is as much a history of false accusations levied against so-called 1%er groups as there are legitimate crimes committed by them. This is one of the reasons they are such dicks about other clubs running patches in their local area. Think about it: if your club's colors are black and white and some other club rolls into town with the same colors or designs and starts running around shooting at cops, civilians, other clubs, whatever...and all eyewitnesses can say is "He wore black and white and drove a Harley," you're going to be brought in for some bullshit, and may even get locked up for something you didn't do. There is at least one instance of someone in this thread ascribing the acts of a serial killer to 1%er clubs when the facts show that there is absolutely no connection whatsoever.
Anyway, what I guess I'm trying to say is that no one is above reproach. If a member of a motorcycle club, or the entire club collectively, committed one or several acts of murder, they should be brought to justice. People should be able to live without feeling threatened, and they should have a right to speak out against criminal acts in their community.
On the other hand, I see a lot of criticisms of "motorcycle gangs" in this thread, but not a lot of solutions. What should we do, make it illegal to display a Hell's Angel patch? That's not going to stop any crimes.
Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of. Bandidos were smuggling your grandma's glaucoma medication before it was legalized, and with any luck prostitution isn't far behind.
I have to strongly disagree with this. The HAs have been wreaking havoc in various places in Canada for at least a couple of decades. See Quebec Biker Wars, for example. They are scum. They're also connected to the Montreal Rizzuto Crime Family.
Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but your dismissive statement comes across as really uninformed and naive.
It is different in my neck of the woods. And I don't give a fuck how my statements come across to you, hombre. I don't need a fucking Wikipedia article to familiarize me with Quebec's problem with 81s. When you write off an entire group of people as "scum" it's kind of a non-starter isn't it?
posted by Demogorgon at 10:18 PM on May 18, 2015
So...this sucks and it is definitely a thing that happens. The history of outlaw motorcycle clubs is long and storied. I feel like there are a lot of good reads on the subject that any Mefite could enjoy. I recommend starting with Hunter S. Thompson's Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga. Then maybe read some of the biographies written by 1%ers themselves.
One of the problematic things about these clubs we're talking about, is that the mystique perpetrated by media and general public hysteria contributes to an influx of prospective members who want to live out what they read in the papers. There is as much a history of false accusations levied against so-called 1%er groups as there are legitimate crimes committed by them. This is one of the reasons they are such dicks about other clubs running patches in their local area. Think about it: if your club's colors are black and white and some other club rolls into town with the same colors or designs and starts running around shooting at cops, civilians, other clubs, whatever...and all eyewitnesses can say is "He wore black and white and drove a Harley," you're going to be brought in for some bullshit, and may even get locked up for something you didn't do. There is at least one instance of someone in this thread ascribing the acts of a serial killer to 1%er clubs when the facts show that there is absolutely no connection whatsoever.
Anyway, what I guess I'm trying to say is that no one is above reproach. If a member of a motorcycle club, or the entire club collectively, committed one or several acts of murder, they should be brought to justice. People should be able to live without feeling threatened, and they should have a right to speak out against criminal acts in their community.
On the other hand, I see a lot of criticisms of "motorcycle gangs" in this thread, but not a lot of solutions. What should we do, make it illegal to display a Hell's Angel patch? That's not going to stop any crimes.
Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of. Bandidos were smuggling your grandma's glaucoma medication before it was legalized, and with any luck prostitution isn't far behind.
I have to strongly disagree with this. The HAs have been wreaking havoc in various places in Canada for at least a couple of decades. See Quebec Biker Wars, for example. They are scum. They're also connected to the Montreal Rizzuto Crime Family.
Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but your dismissive statement comes across as really uninformed and naive.
It is different in my neck of the woods. And I don't give a fuck how my statements come across to you, hombre. I don't need a fucking Wikipedia article to familiarize me with Quebec's problem with 81s. When you write off an entire group of people as "scum" it's kind of a non-starter isn't it?
posted by Demogorgon at 10:18 PM on May 18, 2015
Pickton on ran a HA speakeasy. Don't blow smoke up my ass how drug-addicted, indebted HA-controlled prostitutes weren't being fed to pigs by those fucking cockroaches. They are the worst fucking scum in this country, right along with their idiot supporters and puppets.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:30 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 10:30 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Demogorgon: Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of.
Say what? No, really, what? This thread had inspired me to look into the situation here in Montana—apparently too sparse to be claimed by any one club but the Bandidos have the largest presence,[1] largest criminal activity is drug smuggling, largest among that marijuana. So a person might be inclined to say "yeah that's not so bad" but then one of the other major criminal activities is human trafficking. Apparently to the extent of using women as a form of currency for other transactions.
Never thought I'd see someone justifying that stuff. You married to 1%er or what's the deal here? Because your comments really are coming across as a biased apologist to me. Apparently property crimes are way up on the list so if you don't care as much about prostitution you might care about that? The newspaper said all Bandidos members are required to carry a gun and sell drugs—was that a lie too? Is the secret reality really all puppies and roses?
[1] Except during Sturgis, apparently, when we have a ton of groups passing through.
posted by traveler_ at 10:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Say what? No, really, what? This thread had inspired me to look into the situation here in Montana—apparently too sparse to be claimed by any one club but the Bandidos have the largest presence,[1] largest criminal activity is drug smuggling, largest among that marijuana. So a person might be inclined to say "yeah that's not so bad" but then one of the other major criminal activities is human trafficking. Apparently to the extent of using women as a form of currency for other transactions.
Never thought I'd see someone justifying that stuff. You married to 1%er or what's the deal here? Because your comments really are coming across as a biased apologist to me. Apparently property crimes are way up on the list so if you don't care as much about prostitution you might care about that? The newspaper said all Bandidos members are required to carry a gun and sell drugs—was that a lie too? Is the secret reality really all puppies and roses?
[1] Except during Sturgis, apparently, when we have a ton of groups passing through.
posted by traveler_ at 10:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, see, traveler, it's cool to traffic in little girls.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 10:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
My anecdote aside, I don't think it's a good idea to generalize about the morality of people who skirt the edge of society one way or the other. Tends to lead to overconflated romanticization or villainizing.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:46 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:46 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Cool it off in here please. Fine to feel strongly about this, but make your points without attacking or provoking each other.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:20 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:20 PM on May 18, 2015
sfgate: Bikers put out 'green light' against officers following Waco shooting
...
As police rounded up the bikers and night soon fell, intelligence reports indicated that more bikers were on the way here and that officers had been "green lighted" - essentially a gang sanctioned call for killing - as retaliation.
...
Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of.
Biker gangs are pimping women and girls because doing this makes them money; it's not the sex-positive liberated woman version of sex work but rather coercion, meaning rape, torture, and murder.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:38 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
...
As police rounded up the bikers and night soon fell, intelligence reports indicated that more bikers were on the way here and that officers had been "green lighted" - essentially a gang sanctioned call for killing - as retaliation.
...
Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of.
Biker gangs are pimping women and girls because doing this makes them money; it's not the sex-positive liberated woman version of sex work but rather coercion, meaning rape, torture, and murder.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:38 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Kim Bolan's HA blog. Dig into it, lots of jaw-dropping stuff. Gangsters Out blog (a little flakey woo at times, but the gang reporting is solid.)
And of course you should search for HA and human trafficking, HA and various drugs, HA & Vancouver & Mobtreal Ports, HA & Puppet Clubs, HA & Quebec, the RCMP task forces, etc. Go search any of Canada's news media: it's simply sickening how much gang activity goes on in Canada. (More HA per capita than anywhere else, they say! Fuck.) Go search the names you see mentioned by Kim Bolan & the Gangsters Out guy.
It's all out there, it's easy to find, and you don't have to believe me nor the HA apologist. Go investigate it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
I think you'll come to understand why us Canucks are pissed about the frivolous attitude that's been displayed in this thread.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:05 AM on May 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
And of course you should search for HA and human trafficking, HA and various drugs, HA & Vancouver & Mobtreal Ports, HA & Puppet Clubs, HA & Quebec, the RCMP task forces, etc. Go search any of Canada's news media: it's simply sickening how much gang activity goes on in Canada. (More HA per capita than anywhere else, they say! Fuck.) Go search the names you see mentioned by Kim Bolan & the Gangsters Out guy.
It's all out there, it's easy to find, and you don't have to believe me nor the HA apologist. Go investigate it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
I think you'll come to understand why us Canucks are pissed about the frivolous attitude that's been displayed in this thread.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:05 AM on May 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, please spare me the "drug runner" and prostitution accusations as if they should be something to be ashamed of.
I can't even...
Also, it's Ms. Hombre to you.
Go ahead and throw them a fucking parade, if you want, but realize that there are many of us who live in communities that are affected by their activities and don't think they're the poor, misunderstood outsiders that you seem to think they are. They are murderers and traffickers of human beings. Looks like scum to me.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:13 AM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't even...
Also, it's Ms. Hombre to you.
Go ahead and throw them a fucking parade, if you want, but realize that there are many of us who live in communities that are affected by their activities and don't think they're the poor, misunderstood outsiders that you seem to think they are. They are murderers and traffickers of human beings. Looks like scum to me.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:13 AM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Apologies to the mods; I didn't see the deletions when I commented. But sources are always good anyway so I think (had to search my browser history) these are where I got most my info about motorcycle gangs around here:
That threat assessment report is interesting (partly for featuring the Insane Clown Posse so prominently as a moderately-active gang) but also for this quote:(Vigil 2003)
So, Klaxon Aoooogah, I don't think that's an either/or but a both/and.
Vigil, J.D. (2003). “Urban Violence and Street Gangs.” Annual Review of Anthropology, 225-242.
posted by traveler_ at 12:22 AM on May 19, 2015
What has happened is that, either because of their own soul death, personal
traumas, and wish to prove their masculinity during the adolescent passage, or all
of these, a street gang member has joined more than a particular gang, but a whole troop of suicidal persons who play a type of street Russian roulette.
So, Klaxon Aoooogah, I don't think that's an either/or but a both/and.
Vigil, J.D. (2003). “Urban Violence and Street Gangs.” Annual Review of Anthropology, 225-242.
posted by traveler_ at 12:22 AM on May 19, 2015
That threat assessment report is interesting (partly for featuring the Insane Clown Posse so prominently as a moderately-active gang)
I'm confused here. Is there an actual criminal gang called Insane Clown Posse? Do the respondents mean to say "juggalos"? Is ICP really a crime syndicate fronting as a pissweak rap group? This study raises more questions than answers.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:32 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm confused here. Is there an actual criminal gang called Insane Clown Posse? Do the respondents mean to say "juggalos"? Is ICP really a crime syndicate fronting as a pissweak rap group? This study raises more questions than answers.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:32 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is there an actual criminal gang called Insane Clown Posse? Do the respondents mean to say "juggalos"?
That might be a misunderstanding borne of a single messed-up murderer's claims. But definitely the same thing as juggalos.
posted by traveler_ at 12:43 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
That might be a misunderstanding borne of a single messed-up murderer's claims. But definitely the same thing as juggalos.
posted by traveler_ at 12:43 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
wikipedia's article on the Juggalo Gangs is a little nuts. LA Weekly is a bit more skeptical.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:46 AM on May 19, 2015
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:46 AM on May 19, 2015
What should we do, make it illegal to display a Hell's Angel patch?
The Australian state of Queensland did just that a few years ago, with its draconian “VLAD” laws.
posted by acb at 4:23 AM on May 19, 2015
The Australian state of Queensland did just that a few years ago, with its draconian “VLAD” laws.
posted by acb at 4:23 AM on May 19, 2015
What should we do, make it illegal to display a Hell's Angel patch?
In the US the DOJ is trying to use trademark law to do just that with the Mongols, as I posted here in 2008. Apparently it is still winding its way through the courts, at least as of last summer. I would imagine that if the government is successful in setting this precedent they will use it elsewhere, but it looks like they are having an uphill struggle, mainly on first amendment grounds.
posted by TedW at 5:13 AM on May 19, 2015
In the US the DOJ is trying to use trademark law to do just that with the Mongols, as I posted here in 2008. Apparently it is still winding its way through the courts, at least as of last summer. I would imagine that if the government is successful in setting this precedent they will use it elsewhere, but it looks like they are having an uphill struggle, mainly on first amendment grounds.
posted by TedW at 5:13 AM on May 19, 2015
My brother IN LAW was a hangaround, I should say. I don't have a brother.
posted by jonmc at 6:24 AM on May 19, 2015
posted by jonmc at 6:24 AM on May 19, 2015
The Greenlight story should be terrifying. This means that the Bandidos are bringing in all available muscle for the purpose of killing cops to avenge their losses.
This is a Mexican style narco-war about happen on US soil if it's true.
Meanwhile, the Governor has his personal army spying on the US Military because he believes the Black Muslim Communist President for Life is planning on putting people into re-education camps located in abandoned Walmarts.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:34 AM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is a Mexican style narco-war about happen on US soil if it's true.
Meanwhile, the Governor has his personal army spying on the US Military because he believes the Black Muslim Communist President for Life is planning on putting people into re-education camps located in abandoned Walmarts.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:34 AM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think you'll come to understand why us Canucks are pissed about the frivolous attitude that's been displayed in this thread.
The fact that some Americans are so inured to violence that they're shrugging off a mass murder biker gang shootout makes the Canadians in this thread look eminently sane to me. Generally speaking, if you're an American who's pissed off a Canadian, you're the one that's probably in the wrong.
posted by jonp72 at 8:20 AM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fact that some Americans are so inured to violence that they're shrugging off a mass murder biker gang shootout makes the Canadians in this thread look eminently sane to me. Generally speaking, if you're an American who's pissed off a Canadian, you're the one that's probably in the wrong.
posted by jonp72 at 8:20 AM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have the impression that Biker culture is directly in line with Americans' perception of themselves as rugged frontiersmen, so it's a legitimate lifestyle choice. That, along with books like HS Thompson's and a long list of movies glorifying/demonizing bikers makes people more accepting of bikers as "the people in our neighborhood" than we've seen in Canada.
We and our police forces have historically been much less tolerant, or more fearful, of bike gangs than US law enforcement. Then there's the idea that America's huge prison population means that mainstream culture is a lot more exposed to prison culture in general. Winter makes riding motorcycles problematic, so we don't even see bikers for five months of the year, but cash flow must continue. Lastly, the apparent broad belief that the US government is some kind of evil scam getting ready to perpetrate Jade Helm 15 (or insert conspiracy here) seems pretty far-fetched to many Canadians (although I know at least one person who totally believes this stuff, so that's changing too). My impression (again) is that bikers are seen as righteous defenders of individuality in the face of government oppression.
Based on what I've read about the biker wars in Quebec and what's been happening with drug gangs in BC*, I'm sure that the typical colors-wearing bikers we see in Western Canada are only the PR arm of the clubs. The actual bosses and members dress like regular folks and drive cars. You don't want your drugs, guns or cash scooped just because wearing colors makes you a target for police. These people are not stupid.
*Featuring organized crime groups from Hong Kong, Viet Nam and India, as well as the Mafia and various bike gangs. It's an entrepreneurial incubator, only with more targeted executions.
posted by sneebler at 10:07 AM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
We and our police forces have historically been much less tolerant, or more fearful, of bike gangs than US law enforcement. Then there's the idea that America's huge prison population means that mainstream culture is a lot more exposed to prison culture in general. Winter makes riding motorcycles problematic, so we don't even see bikers for five months of the year, but cash flow must continue. Lastly, the apparent broad belief that the US government is some kind of evil scam getting ready to perpetrate Jade Helm 15 (or insert conspiracy here) seems pretty far-fetched to many Canadians (although I know at least one person who totally believes this stuff, so that's changing too). My impression (again) is that bikers are seen as righteous defenders of individuality in the face of government oppression.
Based on what I've read about the biker wars in Quebec and what's been happening with drug gangs in BC*, I'm sure that the typical colors-wearing bikers we see in Western Canada are only the PR arm of the clubs. The actual bosses and members dress like regular folks and drive cars. You don't want your drugs, guns or cash scooped just because wearing colors makes you a target for police. These people are not stupid.
*Featuring organized crime groups from Hong Kong, Viet Nam and India, as well as the Mafia and various bike gangs. It's an entrepreneurial incubator, only with more targeted executions.
posted by sneebler at 10:07 AM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I know there's that 'lone cowboy' mystique. There are a lot of people who love the aesthetic and the b/romance of it. I'm not talking about the weekend warriors & wannabes. I'm talking about the bona-fide organized criminals, the so-called 1%ers.
Yes, high up the org chart, you couldn't pick these guys out of a crowd. They live in very nice neighborhoods in nice homes and look like typical, clean cut guys. For special occasions (such as funerals), they show up in full regalia, though.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, high up the org chart, you couldn't pick these guys out of a crowd. They live in very nice neighborhoods in nice homes and look like typical, clean cut guys. For special occasions (such as funerals), they show up in full regalia, though.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
That, along with books like HS Thompson's and a long list of movies glorifying/demonizing bikers makes people more accepting of bikers as "the people in our neighborhood" than we've seen in Canada.
The only good biker club I've ever heard of in Canada was one (I'm pretty sure it's gone now) that was next door to a gaybar off the Danforth. The dudes acted as security for the bar.
This isn't to say I don't know people who ride motorcycles, I do. Not a single one of them belongs, or AFAIK knows anyone who belongs, to a club that's more organized than "hey dude/ttes let's get together on Saturday and ride up to K-W for some sausages and jam."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:56 AM on May 19, 2015
The only good biker club I've ever heard of in Canada was one (I'm pretty sure it's gone now) that was next door to a gaybar off the Danforth. The dudes acted as security for the bar.
This isn't to say I don't know people who ride motorcycles, I do. Not a single one of them belongs, or AFAIK knows anyone who belongs, to a club that's more organized than "hey dude/ttes let's get together on Saturday and ride up to K-W for some sausages and jam."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:56 AM on May 19, 2015
feckless, I think that clubhouse on the Danforth was Satan's Choice. The Choice were not nice guys, and may have been acting as security because they controlled the drugs in the club.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:07 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:07 PM on May 19, 2015
Oh, Jesus; not you too.
I suppose you could play, "Spot the not-white guy," but you'll have a better chance of finding Waldo
The booking photos suggest a more than marginal latino presence at the party. I thought racial verticals were pretty common (and some SS ink on one of the Cossaks, groups like the Mongols) so am kind of curious about that. I guess #notalloutlawgangs? One of the five?
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I suppose you could play, "Spot the not-white guy," but you'll have a better chance of finding Waldo
The booking photos suggest a more than marginal latino presence at the party. I thought racial verticals were pretty common (and some SS ink on one of the Cossaks, groups like the Mongols) so am kind of curious about that. I guess #notalloutlawgangs? One of the five?
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I honestly don't remember the name; the bar was The Toolbox. And it wasn't a club--it was more like a neighbourhood pub-slash-leather bar with a crowd that skewed older. While I don't doubt there were drugs there, not as big a deal (ahem) there as would be in a big gay club downtown.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 PM on May 19, 2015
When you write off an entire group of people as "scum" it's kind of a non-starter isn't it?
These are sociopaths who are a true cancer on society. They are scum. They can stop being scum when they quit being a part of a biker gang.
posted by Nevin at 12:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
These are sociopaths who are a true cancer on society. They are scum. They can stop being scum when they quit being a part of a biker gang.
posted by Nevin at 12:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Kim Bolan's HA blog. Dig into it, lots of jaw-dropping stuff.
Kim Bolan is very brave, and one of the few reasons to pick up the Van Sun.
posted by Nevin at 12:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kim Bolan is very brave, and one of the few reasons to pick up the Van Sun.
posted by Nevin at 12:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the Aging Rebel's Waco thread:
At about 6:16 mark in this video 3 men walk by and are followed by the camera at least one in a Harley shirt, chained wallet(?) and one may have a side arm. The 3 men walk to a police line and they seem to be in friendly accompaniment of a police vehicle.
https://youtu.be/0Eq2B3ZzwLw
posted by telstar at 1:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
At about 6:16 mark in this video 3 men walk by and are followed by the camera at least one in a Harley shirt, chained wallet(?) and one may have a side arm. The 3 men walk to a police line and they seem to be in friendly accompaniment of a police vehicle.
https://youtu.be/0Eq2B3ZzwLw
posted by telstar at 1:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not to minimize the craziness of all this, even though a large portion of the dead were apparently killed by cops, but this is the kind of overheated rhetoric that jumps out at me:
"The Bandidos are involved in transporting and distributing cocaine and marijuana and are involved in the production, transportation and distribution of methamphetamine," according to a Justice Department fact sheet.
Like people everywhere, for customers at all strata of society. Violence is bad, but this is just stupid Drug War demonization.
posted by rhizome at 1:05 PM on May 19, 2015
"The Bandidos are involved in transporting and distributing cocaine and marijuana and are involved in the production, transportation and distribution of methamphetamine," according to a Justice Department fact sheet.
Like people everywhere, for customers at all strata of society. Violence is bad, but this is just stupid Drug War demonization.
posted by rhizome at 1:05 PM on May 19, 2015
Like people everywhere, for customers at all strata of society. Violence is bad, but this is just stupid Drug War demonization.
There is a huge problem of gangland shootings in Vancouver and its suburbs. These gangs are linked to biker gangs like the Bandidos. This violence affects many people. It is unacceptable.
Sure, the Drug War has failed, but that does not excuse the behavior of these criminals.
I'm not really sure what the point is of discussing the topic here anyhow, with all the Sophistry on display in this thread.
posted by Nevin at 1:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is a huge problem of gangland shootings in Vancouver and its suburbs. These gangs are linked to biker gangs like the Bandidos. This violence affects many people. It is unacceptable.
Sure, the Drug War has failed, but that does not excuse the behavior of these criminals.
I'm not really sure what the point is of discussing the topic here anyhow, with all the Sophistry on display in this thread.
posted by Nevin at 1:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, I'm from New Zealand - which makes me pretty far away from all this, right?
However, I'm really suspicious that we've still got the same screwed up dynamics? Here, we have predominantly non-white, or Maori gangs such as Black Power and Mongrel Mob, are demonised and villified (for sometimes good reason), but WHITE local 'Motorcycle' gangs, such as they Lost Breed in small town Nelson, New Zealand?
Oh, they're just a motorcycle club! They're local boys! (They're WHITE!) I've got a friend who drinks at their clubhouse, so I'm sure they are really decent people!
And of course, the lingering impression that they are keeping those 'brown' gangs out.
Which, they do.
Because they are the major organised crime group in Nelson, they don't take any competition, and have murdered, or had armed shootouts in the street when other gangs have tried to move in. They are behind most of the drugs (one of the highest meth programs when I was living in that town), many of the murders, and most of the beatings and rapes (many of which happen in their clubhouse) in the town. Many of the beatings that happened if you spoke out against them. They dealt drugs to 12-14 year olds (usually only pot), directly through the gate of their clubhouse - and no, not with any older kids with them.
None of the above is 'gossip', I've miserably confirmed every piece of the above.
Did people report the assaults, the rapes? Not if they knew what was good for them. Did the crimes they ever got charged with generally get much coverage in the local paper? Curiously, no. Did the cops ever really come down on them? Same as the above.
How well did any of this information ever go down when someone was defending them as a motorcycle club?
Not at fucking all well. Because they were friends of friends. They were a 'club', not a gang. They were local boys. They were white.
Had to tell a workmate who kept defending them, because he had friends who were in the gang, "I've got friends in that club" "Then your friends are in with a bunch of raping, murdering, drug dealing racists."
So, yeah. I'm pretty suspicious when people try and argue there's no overlap between motorcycle clubs and gangs, especially on the basis that they're mostly white, and especially when there is a known criminal background.
At least with Mongrel Mob and Black Power, no one pretends that they aren't gangs. Maybe things are drastically different in the US and Canada, but... people travel. And from what I've heard, it isn't.
posted by Elysum at 5:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
However, I'm really suspicious that we've still got the same screwed up dynamics? Here, we have predominantly non-white, or Maori gangs such as Black Power and Mongrel Mob, are demonised and villified (for sometimes good reason), but WHITE local 'Motorcycle' gangs, such as they Lost Breed in small town Nelson, New Zealand?
Oh, they're just a motorcycle club! They're local boys! (They're WHITE!) I've got a friend who drinks at their clubhouse, so I'm sure they are really decent people!
And of course, the lingering impression that they are keeping those 'brown' gangs out.
Which, they do.
Because they are the major organised crime group in Nelson, they don't take any competition, and have murdered, or had armed shootouts in the street when other gangs have tried to move in. They are behind most of the drugs (one of the highest meth programs when I was living in that town), many of the murders, and most of the beatings and rapes (many of which happen in their clubhouse) in the town. Many of the beatings that happened if you spoke out against them. They dealt drugs to 12-14 year olds (usually only pot), directly through the gate of their clubhouse - and no, not with any older kids with them.
None of the above is 'gossip', I've miserably confirmed every piece of the above.
Did people report the assaults, the rapes? Not if they knew what was good for them. Did the crimes they ever got charged with generally get much coverage in the local paper? Curiously, no. Did the cops ever really come down on them? Same as the above.
How well did any of this information ever go down when someone was defending them as a motorcycle club?
Not at fucking all well. Because they were friends of friends. They were a 'club', not a gang. They were local boys. They were white.
Had to tell a workmate who kept defending them, because he had friends who were in the gang, "I've got friends in that club" "Then your friends are in with a bunch of raping, murdering, drug dealing racists."
So, yeah. I'm pretty suspicious when people try and argue there's no overlap between motorcycle clubs and gangs, especially on the basis that they're mostly white, and especially when there is a known criminal background.
At least with Mongrel Mob and Black Power, no one pretends that they aren't gangs. Maybe things are drastically different in the US and Canada, but... people travel. And from what I've heard, it isn't.
posted by Elysum at 5:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
(They're WHITE!)
Judging by the surnames in this collection of mugshots from the Waco shootout, a significant portion of these crews seem to be Latino.
posted by jonmc at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Judging by the surnames in this collection of mugshots from the Waco shootout, a significant portion of these crews seem to be Latino.
posted by jonmc at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty suspicious when people try and argue there's no overlap between motorcycle clubs and gangs,
Who on earth is saying there is on overlap? Anyone who says there is no overlap is obviously totally clueless.
posted by Nevin at 7:33 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who on earth is saying there is on overlap? Anyone who says there is no overlap is obviously totally clueless.
posted by Nevin at 7:33 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
But they do toy runs, Elysum! They can't be bad!
People willfully delude themselves. It's easier than thinking about the rational long-term plans the savvy, suited billionaires that head these organizations have to execute in order to maintain their grip on our society. Once you start thinking about it, and start seeing how obvious it is, it becomes difficult to numbly accept the status quo. And then what are you going to do? You can't fight them, don't want to join them: all you can do is rage impotently. and no one likes that feeling.
So, yay! Toy runs! They're good guys, these bikers!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:43 PM on May 19, 2015
People willfully delude themselves. It's easier than thinking about the rational long-term plans the savvy, suited billionaires that head these organizations have to execute in order to maintain their grip on our society. Once you start thinking about it, and start seeing how obvious it is, it becomes difficult to numbly accept the status quo. And then what are you going to do? You can't fight them, don't want to join them: all you can do is rage impotently. and no one likes that feeling.
So, yay! Toy runs! They're good guys, these bikers!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:43 PM on May 19, 2015
What are you even talking about? "Savvy, suited billionaires" head biker gangs?
posted by Demogorgon at 7:42 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by Demogorgon at 7:42 AM on May 20, 2015
Is this a reference to the Neo Nazi greeting ('H' being the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 = HH = Heil Hitler)
Come to think of it, '88' also sounds an awful lot like 'idiot'.
posted by Flashman at 9:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Come to think of it, '88' also sounds an awful lot like 'idiot'.
posted by Flashman at 9:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Marijuana production in BC is the top commodity, generating $6 billion+ annually. That's a half-billion more than all our forestry/lumber industry and nearly double that of mining. The HA control the drug and prostitution industry (worth another $2B) in BC. Now scale up an order of magnitude for Canada, and another for the global trade.
The top dogs in the organization are billionaires. If you are drawing from a seemingly bottomless well of ignorance about the players and their trade, perhaps it is best to remain silent instead of engaging in apologetics.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:10 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
The top dogs in the organization are billionaires. If you are drawing from a seemingly bottomless well of ignorance about the players and their trade, perhaps it is best to remain silent instead of engaging in apologetics.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:10 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Demorgorgon, fff, please just move on to ignoring each other at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:31 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:31 PM on May 20, 2015
Richie died, then Diesel, then Dog: An eyewitness to the Waco biker brawl
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:37 PM on May 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:37 PM on May 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm a little skeptical about the Greenlight story. Immediately after the Baltimore protests the police claimed that the Bloods and the Crips were teaming up to take out police, which appeared to have no basis in fact.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:00 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:00 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also relevant, The Great Nordic Biker War, an ongoing turf battle between the Hells Angels and the Bandidos in Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:02 AM on May 28, 2015
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:02 AM on May 28, 2015
Jim Goad had a good commentary about the racial dynamics of the fight being played out in the media. He provides a measured response to the "what if they were black and in Ferguson or Baltimore?" questions. Which are legitimate, and good questions, and they have good answers.
posted by theorique at 6:16 AM on May 29, 2015
posted by theorique at 6:16 AM on May 29, 2015
White supremacist Jim Goad published an article praising white people on white supremacist website Takimag and that seems to you to be a "measured response" asking "legitimate, and good questions" and "good answers"?
Do go on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:49 AM on May 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Do go on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:49 AM on May 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
White supremacist Jim Goad published an article praising white people on white supremacist website Takimag
I didn't realize they were considered white supremacist ... in most of my readings, they seem to be pretty mainstream paleoconservative. They even have "godfather of hipsters" Gavin McInnes as a contributor.
posted by theorique at 8:59 AM on May 29, 2015
I didn't realize they were considered white supremacist ... in most of my readings, they seem to be pretty mainstream paleoconservative. They even have "godfather of hipsters" Gavin McInnes as a contributor.
posted by theorique at 8:59 AM on May 29, 2015
Whaaaaaaat? That is one racist article. Don't read it unless you want your head to explode.
In summary, that article seemed to be:
'It wasn't white people, it was Hispanics!',
'Even if it was, they were probably killed by cops' (with some weird undercurrent of, "white people get killed by cops too, and you don't see us complaining about it")
and finally, 'If it had been black biker gangs who got shot, black people would have been rioting'
Actually, I'll just quote from it:
The cops were nicer to the arrestees because: "white arrestees are less likely to resist arrest than newly canonized black criminal-saints such as Mike Brown, Eric Garner, and Freddie Gray."
Nope, he changed his mind, the police totally went overkill and more agressive to white people than black people (or several gang of bikers from whom 320 weapons were confiscated, unlike mostly unarmed protestors):
"police showed a much more aggressive response to this incident—which couldn’t have lasted more than five minutes—than they did to prolonged rioting in Ferguson and Baltimore. But if you were merely to note this fact, you would be deviating from The Script and told to shut your filthy bigoted piehole."
And, I wish I hadn't googled his name or that mag. Down the racist rabbithole. Oh well, now I know.
posted by Elysum at 9:23 AM on May 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
In summary, that article seemed to be:
'It wasn't white people, it was Hispanics!',
'Even if it was, they were probably killed by cops' (with some weird undercurrent of, "white people get killed by cops too, and you don't see us complaining about it")
and finally, 'If it had been black biker gangs who got shot, black people would have been rioting'
Actually, I'll just quote from it:
The cops were nicer to the arrestees because: "white arrestees are less likely to resist arrest than newly canonized black criminal-saints such as Mike Brown, Eric Garner, and Freddie Gray."
Nope, he changed his mind, the police totally went overkill and more agressive to white people than black people (or several gang of bikers from whom 320 weapons were confiscated, unlike mostly unarmed protestors):
"police showed a much more aggressive response to this incident—which couldn’t have lasted more than five minutes—than they did to prolonged rioting in Ferguson and Baltimore. But if you were merely to note this fact, you would be deviating from The Script and told to shut your filthy bigoted piehole."
And, I wish I hadn't googled his name or that mag. Down the racist rabbithole. Oh well, now I know.
posted by Elysum at 9:23 AM on May 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Leaving aside that paleoconservatism is a white supremacist ideology, here's Gavin McInnes' articles on VDARE.
And hey, let's look at the Takimag contributors. The list on their Contributors page is huge, so let's just list the people with articles on the front page:
-Gavin McInnes (booted from VICE for being a racist, sexist piece of shit)
-David Cole (the noted Holocaust denier, not the Nation writer)
-Jim Goad (who's made a career out of demeaning women and blacks in a way that appeals to edgy white men)
-Theodore Dalrymple (no idea)
-John Derbyshire (who was too racist even for the National Review)
-Patrick J. Buchanan (come onnnnn)
-Paul Wood (whose article is not about race but rather a bunch of lies about how awful life is for non-homophobes, though his only other article for Takimag is in praise of closing all borders and paying African nations to take black people back)
-Steve Sailer (VDARE columnist and The Bell Curve defender)
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:30 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
And hey, let's look at the Takimag contributors. The list on their Contributors page is huge, so let's just list the people with articles on the front page:
-Gavin McInnes (booted from VICE for being a racist, sexist piece of shit)
-David Cole (the noted Holocaust denier, not the Nation writer)
-Jim Goad (who's made a career out of demeaning women and blacks in a way that appeals to edgy white men)
-Theodore Dalrymple (no idea)
-John Derbyshire (who was too racist even for the National Review)
-Patrick J. Buchanan (come onnnnn)
-Paul Wood (whose article is not about race but rather a bunch of lies about how awful life is for non-homophobes, though his only other article for Takimag is in praise of closing all borders and paying African nations to take black people back)
-Steve Sailer (VDARE columnist and The Bell Curve defender)
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:30 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ah, yes, Jim Goad, former publisher of the Answer Me zine, which included the famous "Rape" issue that included a "rape game" where you can pretend to sexually assault someone.
Let's try not to link out to him, okay?
posted by maxsparber at 9:31 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let's try not to link out to him, okay?
posted by maxsparber at 9:31 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Theodore Dalrymple" is the nom de plume of Anthony Daniels, a medical doctor and commentator on social and politcal issues.
posted by theorique at 9:39 AM on May 29, 2015
posted by theorique at 9:39 AM on May 29, 2015
Theorique, I don't understand the point of the last comment.
Pope Guilty was pointing out the background and racist credentials of Takimag contributors, and you posted a link to the one whom PG notably pointed out they didn't have anything on with "no idea", but you only linked to Theodore Dalrymple's wikipedia page.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from that.
Who he is?
Is it supposed to be implied that he's either not racist or the least racist contributor out of that list of 8 names?
Were you thinking that Pope Guilty wasn't able to google the name, or had you missed that PG was commenting on notable pieces of noxiousness in the contributors backgrounds?
I... think it was the last one. But even if it was, what information were you wanting us to learn from it? Was it just a derail?
posted by Elysum at 11:28 AM on May 29, 2015
Pope Guilty was pointing out the background and racist credentials of Takimag contributors, and you posted a link to the one whom PG notably pointed out they didn't have anything on with "no idea", but you only linked to Theodore Dalrymple's wikipedia page.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from that.
Who he is?
Is it supposed to be implied that he's either not racist or the least racist contributor out of that list of 8 names?
Were you thinking that Pope Guilty wasn't able to google the name, or had you missed that PG was commenting on notable pieces of noxiousness in the contributors backgrounds?
I... think it was the last one. But even if it was, what information were you wanting us to learn from it? Was it just a derail?
posted by Elysum at 11:28 AM on May 29, 2015
No particular agenda, really, except for completeness of that list. Certainly not implying that PopeGuilty could not have tracked down such information on his own.
Of the Takimag writers, he's the only one of whom I've actually read a full-length book (Our Culture, What's Left Of It). I don't know if he's racist or not - the book was focused on the unfortunate situation of the UK underclass, and didn't have any racial undertones that I could detect. He's probably one of the most mainstream writers of the people on that masthead, actually, at least in the UK.
And, how 'bout them biker gangs ...?
posted by theorique at 12:44 PM on May 29, 2015
Of the Takimag writers, he's the only one of whom I've actually read a full-length book (Our Culture, What's Left Of It). I don't know if he's racist or not - the book was focused on the unfortunate situation of the UK underclass, and didn't have any racial undertones that I could detect. He's probably one of the most mainstream writers of the people on that masthead, actually, at least in the UK.
And, how 'bout them biker gangs ...?
posted by theorique at 12:44 PM on May 29, 2015
I appreciated the link on Dalrymple- he's the only one on that list I'd never heard of. A scan through his Wikipedia page ought to reveal why he'd be writing for a scumbag like Taki.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:40 PM on May 29, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:40 PM on May 29, 2015
Yes, Jim Goad is the man I turn to when I want to read a "measured response" about a thing.
Anyway. The three guys arrested in connection to the shooting are now free, their bonds reduced from a million to 25 grand. Good thing they didn't break any windows, I guess, or they'd be looking at half a million and no sweet deals with the DA.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:20 PM on May 29, 2015
Anyway. The three guys arrested in connection to the shooting are now free, their bonds reduced from a million to 25 grand. Good thing they didn't break any windows, I guess, or they'd be looking at half a million and no sweet deals with the DA.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:20 PM on May 29, 2015
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