"Big Indie" Games on Kickstarter
May 19, 2015 2:51 PM Subscribe
"Big Indie" Kickstarters Are Killing Actual Indies. "The notion that 'consumers don't actually understand the real cost of game development' isn't a new one, but the true price tag is actually kind of scary, and the illusions put up by large Kickstarters are having a measurable negative effect on Kickstarter as a whole."
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
Isn't this really the case of "big indies" using kickstarter as a way of securing seed capital in addition to the rest of the operating capital? Add in the effect that a positive kickstarter can generate in terms of word of mouth advertising and I can definitely see why not so indie indies are boxing other indies out of the market.
Maybe the assumption that games could always be majority funded via crowdfunding platforms was always a sketchy promise at best.
posted by vuron at 3:10 PM on May 19, 2015
Maybe the assumption that games could always be majority funded via crowdfunding platforms was always a sketchy promise at best.
posted by vuron at 3:10 PM on May 19, 2015
Big companies using Kickstarter just pisses me off so much. KickStarter overall seems like a great place to scam people to begin with. Then a big company gets people to take all the risk, while the company gains the reward? Bogus.
posted by Windopaene at 3:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 3:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
This happens with boardgames too (and I guess with everything else on Kickstarter). My problem with it is that companies have seen that Kickstarter is basically just another pool of money, and are poisoning it with their filthy feet, because for every $50 you give to a "big indie" like Queen Games ("big indie" compared to, say, Wizards of the Coast, or Fantasy Flight Games) so they can print off a few hundred copies of Escape from the Temple Big Box Edition (a game they have already conceived, designed, prototyped, play-tested, marketed, published, shipped, and then supported), that's $50 less you have to give to an actual indie developer.
I don't think developers (or artists, or musicians, or authors, or film-makers, or beer brewers) are good because they're "indie", but on balance I would much prefer to see $50 go towards a creative endeavour that is not yet part of some huge churning machine. A girl in an attic designing her own card art. A guy fashioning his own fantasy minis in the 30 day trial version of AutoCAD or whatever. Friends sitting around a kitchen table trying the prototype out, drunk enough to give an honest opinion of a shitty mechanic or a stupid rule. Stuff like that.
Huge churning machines spitting out product aren't automatically bad, because a lot of the stuff they spit out is still perfectly decent, and they still have creative and passionate and dedicated types working in their bowels, and they get to wear jeans to the office and there's probably cheap Pepsi in the staff fridge and all of that is cool, what a great place to work etc., but it's just pearl farming.
I'd rather find a pearl in the wild (if I cared about finding pearls) than just go to the pearl farming guy and ask for a half cup of the things and scoop them out myself from a big bucket, and I'd rather the oysters developed the pearls of their own volition rather than being forced to do it by some kind of plastic ecosystem and nanoinjected particles and 5% hydrobaths of NutroGrow Oyster Solution.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:14 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't think developers (or artists, or musicians, or authors, or film-makers, or beer brewers) are good because they're "indie", but on balance I would much prefer to see $50 go towards a creative endeavour that is not yet part of some huge churning machine. A girl in an attic designing her own card art. A guy fashioning his own fantasy minis in the 30 day trial version of AutoCAD or whatever. Friends sitting around a kitchen table trying the prototype out, drunk enough to give an honest opinion of a shitty mechanic or a stupid rule. Stuff like that.
Huge churning machines spitting out product aren't automatically bad, because a lot of the stuff they spit out is still perfectly decent, and they still have creative and passionate and dedicated types working in their bowels, and they get to wear jeans to the office and there's probably cheap Pepsi in the staff fridge and all of that is cool, what a great place to work etc., but it's just pearl farming.
I'd rather find a pearl in the wild (if I cared about finding pearls) than just go to the pearl farming guy and ask for a half cup of the things and scoop them out myself from a big bucket, and I'd rather the oysters developed the pearls of their own volition rather than being forced to do it by some kind of plastic ecosystem and nanoinjected particles and 5% hydrobaths of NutroGrow Oyster Solution.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:14 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
More valuable than the cash, is using Kickstarter as a way to collect pre-orders, which tremendously reduces the risks of a project. Kickstarter is going to be every publisher's "Greenlight" process for new projects.
posted by rustcrumb at 3:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by rustcrumb at 3:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not sure that's the best article.
From Megan Fox, who successfully Kickstarted the game Hot Tin Roof: The Cat Who Wore a Fedora:
From Megan Fox, who successfully Kickstarted the game Hot Tin Roof: The Cat Who Wore a Fedora:
Saying that "Big Indie" Kickstarters are killing small budgets ignores that indie Kickstarters above $40k have been impossible since foreverposted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:25 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The worst Kickstarters ever were the ones by Penny Arcade. Just blatant, blatant cash grabs. The recent one from the Oatmeal wasn't much better.
Besides, Pillars of Eternity is freaking brilliant, and blaming it for the inability of Poorly-Conceived MineCraft Procedural Buzzword Ripoff #23253 to get funding is pointing in the wrong direction.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:30 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Besides, Pillars of Eternity is freaking brilliant, and blaming it for the inability of Poorly-Conceived MineCraft Procedural Buzzword Ripoff #23253 to get funding is pointing in the wrong direction.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:30 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
... on balance I would much prefer to see $50 go towards a creative endeavour that is not yet part of some huge churning machine.
I completely agree, though I'm fairly biased, being someone who has two super-tiny indie boardgames funded via Kickstarter at this point. I'm a huge fan of Kickstarter (as a backer myself) for projects that really wouldn't exist without crowdfunding. Over time, though, I feel like those are being crowded out by pre-order projects.
Much like how the budgets for videogame projects have become divorced from reality, so also have the budgets and the expectations for boardgame projects. Within the span of a few years, it's gone from being someplace you could fund a small project with a reasonable prototype, to someplace you basically have to be able to show about a 90% done product (complete with final art, components, etc), to have a chance -- and then you get to deal with the stretch goal treadmill, "free" shipping demands, etc.
It's still an OK platform, but it feels like it's teetering on the edge as far as real indie utility.
posted by tocts at 3:32 PM on May 19, 2015
I completely agree, though I'm fairly biased, being someone who has two super-tiny indie boardgames funded via Kickstarter at this point. I'm a huge fan of Kickstarter (as a backer myself) for projects that really wouldn't exist without crowdfunding. Over time, though, I feel like those are being crowded out by pre-order projects.
Much like how the budgets for videogame projects have become divorced from reality, so also have the budgets and the expectations for boardgame projects. Within the span of a few years, it's gone from being someplace you could fund a small project with a reasonable prototype, to someplace you basically have to be able to show about a 90% done product (complete with final art, components, etc), to have a chance -- and then you get to deal with the stretch goal treadmill, "free" shipping demands, etc.
It's still an OK platform, but it feels like it's teetering on the edge as far as real indie utility.
posted by tocts at 3:32 PM on May 19, 2015
I will never again back a video game KS. They are poison.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:36 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:36 PM on May 19, 2015
Within the span of a few years, it's gone from being someplace you could fund a small project with a reasonable prototype, to someplace you basically have to be able to show about a 90% done product (complete with final art, components, etc), to have a chance
In part, though, this is because small projects with reasonable prototypes too often end up going nowhere -- the closer the product is to done, the less likely it will fall off a cliff. (Or you can do cheap projects, so at least when you throw money into the void you aren't throwing much money in.)
posted by jeather at 3:36 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
In part, though, this is because small projects with reasonable prototypes too often end up going nowhere -- the closer the product is to done, the less likely it will fall off a cliff. (Or you can do cheap projects, so at least when you throw money into the void you aren't throwing much money in.)
posted by jeather at 3:36 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
You have inadvertently summoned me... the academic who studies Kickstarter (again)
On one hand, Kickstarter has never been just about the money. In a survey of game, tech, and design projects that raised over $5k before 2014, the most common reason for starting a project were, in order:
-To see if there was demand for the project
-As a way of marketing my project
-To connect directly with a community of my fans or supporters
-"The project could not have been funded without raising the goal” was actually the 4th most popular answer.
At the same time, it is clear that without Kickstarter, a lot of creative (both "big" and small indie) projects would never have been created. Kickstarter supports a lot of different approaches, from companies pre-selling to small, more daring projects. Over 90% of the projects that made over $5k turn into ongoing businesses, but 66% percent of those make less than $100k a year in revenue, so it isn't all big companies.
posted by blahblahblah at 3:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [30 favorites]
On one hand, Kickstarter has never been just about the money. In a survey of game, tech, and design projects that raised over $5k before 2014, the most common reason for starting a project were, in order:
-To see if there was demand for the project
-As a way of marketing my project
-To connect directly with a community of my fans or supporters
-"The project could not have been funded without raising the goal” was actually the 4th most popular answer.
At the same time, it is clear that without Kickstarter, a lot of creative (both "big" and small indie) projects would never have been created. Kickstarter supports a lot of different approaches, from companies pre-selling to small, more daring projects. Over 90% of the projects that made over $5k turn into ongoing businesses, but 66% percent of those make less than $100k a year in revenue, so it isn't all big companies.
posted by blahblahblah at 3:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [30 favorites]
And, on a personal note as a gamer, Kickstarter has given me a lot of amazing new games that otherwise may not have existed. I have backed (and played, and enjoyed): FTL (one of my all time favorites), Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, Doublefine Adventure, etc.
I am still waiting anxiously on Spaceteam, Underworld Ascendant, the Flame and the Flood, Pathologic, and Torment.
The only real disappointment was CLANG!
posted by blahblahblah at 3:43 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I am still waiting anxiously on Spaceteam, Underworld Ascendant, the Flame and the Flood, Pathologic, and Torment.
The only real disappointment was CLANG!
posted by blahblahblah at 3:43 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
The term indie has been abused so much that the phrase "Real Indie" is meaningless. Also, if you want a game that's more than one or two people, you'll get the churning machine whether you like it or not.
In part, though, this is because small projects with reasonable prototypes too often end up going nowhere -- the closer the product is to done, the less likely it will fall off a cliff. (Or you can do cheap projects, so at least when you throw money into the void you aren't throwing much money in.)
The smaller the game, the higher the risk I've found. Unless you have the organization structure that a company provides, any project beyond the simplest has a higher chance of failure or delay. I just got my reward from this, this year. blahblahblah might have more solid data, this is just what I've seen with the projects I've backed.
posted by zabuni at 3:44 PM on May 19, 2015
In part, though, this is because small projects with reasonable prototypes too often end up going nowhere -- the closer the product is to done, the less likely it will fall off a cliff. (Or you can do cheap projects, so at least when you throw money into the void you aren't throwing much money in.)
The smaller the game, the higher the risk I've found. Unless you have the organization structure that a company provides, any project beyond the simplest has a higher chance of failure or delay. I just got my reward from this, this year. blahblahblah might have more solid data, this is just what I've seen with the projects I've backed.
posted by zabuni at 3:44 PM on May 19, 2015
fact of the matter is that the big kickstarters bring in new members and a significant percentage of those members turn around and throw their money into smaller projects, both in the category of the big project and in new categories.
i can totally see arguments for some things having to change, but if you advocate kicking all the giant names out, you'll take their ready made fan bases with them.
posted by nadawi at 3:44 PM on May 19, 2015
i can totally see arguments for some things having to change, but if you advocate kicking all the giant names out, you'll take their ready made fan bases with them.
posted by nadawi at 3:44 PM on May 19, 2015
I'm not going to lie, when The Black Glove's Kickstarter failed, I (the tech/visual FX guy) was almost as relieved as I was disappointed, because $550K simply isn't enough to do that kind of project justice. It might be enough to bootstrap it to a stage where major publishers will put down the cash necessary without taking an obscenely large cut, but you're essentially putting yourself on the hook for something that runs an extremely high chance of not panning out.
Another side project I've contributed to hits Kickstarter in a couple weeks, but the indie game that actually pays my salary shifted funding strategy away from Kickstarter six months ago, and I don't see us revisiting that decision...ever, really. Even if you're certain you're offering a competitive product, it's rarely worth the hassle at this point.
I am still waiting anxiously on ...Underworld Ascendant, the Flame and the Flood...
Warms my heart to hear that, bunch of my friends on both.
posted by Ryvar at 3:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another side project I've contributed to hits Kickstarter in a couple weeks, but the indie game that actually pays my salary shifted funding strategy away from Kickstarter six months ago, and I don't see us revisiting that decision...ever, really. Even if you're certain you're offering a competitive product, it's rarely worth the hassle at this point.
I am still waiting anxiously on ...Underworld Ascendant, the Flame and the Flood...
Warms my heart to hear that, bunch of my friends on both.
posted by Ryvar at 3:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Neither of the examples listed in the article are campaigns by "big, established companies," nor is the article claiming that. They're both people/teams from but unable to work in the traditional industry due to the skyrocketing cost/risk that pretty much defines where "AAA" games are at today and why they're basically failing. Crowdfunding is kind of a temporary stopgap response to that, which is why you see recognizable industry names turning to it now. It's not a permanent or ideal solution, but I'm hoping it generates enough market interest in non-"AAA"-manbaby games and talented designers to allow them to squeeze through the bottleneck before the whole house of cards falls down all over this mixed metaphor.
posted by byanyothername at 3:50 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by byanyothername at 3:50 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know if the argument in the article is correct or not, but if you claim a "measurable negative effect" I want to see measurement.
posted by squinty at 3:52 PM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by squinty at 3:52 PM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'd love to know how well this translates into other, non-gaming Kickstarters -- meaning art/book projects and the like.
I started doing well for myself with indie novel publishing just as Kickstarter was really catching on. I kept having this conversation:
Friends: When are you doing a Kickstarter?
Me: I'm not.
Friends (shocked): WHY NOT?
Me: Because I don't need the money. The only thing that costs me money is cover art, and I have enough set aside for that already. I'll make up the rest.
Friends: But you'd make so much more with a Kickstarter!
Me: (frowning) Shouldn't I leave Kickstarter to people who actually *need* that support? I'm one guy writing novels and I have a day job to lean on. It's not like I'm not going to write without funding.
I mean yeah, the advertising/visibility of Kickstarter seemed like a good thing, but then I'd need to come up with rewards and stretch goals and all that for a book that I'm gonna sell online for $3-$5 a pop, so...what's the point? And now I'm looking at this, and thinking of all the non-gaming Kickstarters I've seen, and I'm left to wonder what the story is behind all those other projects.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:58 PM on May 19, 2015
I started doing well for myself with indie novel publishing just as Kickstarter was really catching on. I kept having this conversation:
Friends: When are you doing a Kickstarter?
Me: I'm not.
Friends (shocked): WHY NOT?
Me: Because I don't need the money. The only thing that costs me money is cover art, and I have enough set aside for that already. I'll make up the rest.
Friends: But you'd make so much more with a Kickstarter!
Me: (frowning) Shouldn't I leave Kickstarter to people who actually *need* that support? I'm one guy writing novels and I have a day job to lean on. It's not like I'm not going to write without funding.
I mean yeah, the advertising/visibility of Kickstarter seemed like a good thing, but then I'd need to come up with rewards and stretch goals and all that for a book that I'm gonna sell online for $3-$5 a pop, so...what's the point? And now I'm looking at this, and thinking of all the non-gaming Kickstarters I've seen, and I'm left to wonder what the story is behind all those other projects.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:58 PM on May 19, 2015
So... side question: do game devs really only make 60k/year? That's of lot of money in global terms, but for software devs... not so much.
posted by lucasks at 3:59 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by lucasks at 3:59 PM on May 19, 2015
Using the above formula, we'd have needed to raise $8,000 x 7 x 12 = $672,000.
...if games like Yooka-Laylee claim to be able to deliver their game on just $270,000, how can we possibly ask for the amount we actually need?
In the end, we decided to ask for $12,000. Considering Kickstarter and Stripe take 10 percent of a project's total and taxes take at least another 5 percent, that would have left us with around $10,000 — a modest sum.
1. There is no relationship between these two numbers. The fact that you are claiming you "need" $672,000 but decided to raise $10,000 shows you never intended to try and raise $672,000. So you are being deceptive about the purpose of kickstarter
2. Kickstarter projects should not be placing the risk of a project on backers who have almost no recourse if a project fails.
3. You can't discuss people's interrogartion of your funding model without acknowledging the number of scams and half baked products with deceptive pitches that have taken money and wither barely/failed to deliver or completely failed to live up to any semblance of the pitch people were interested in. (the r/shittykickstarters reddit is great for this.) although games as bad as hardware design, there have still been numerous high profile projects where backers were essentially screwed openly by designers.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 4:01 PM on May 19, 2015
...if games like Yooka-Laylee claim to be able to deliver their game on just $270,000, how can we possibly ask for the amount we actually need?
In the end, we decided to ask for $12,000. Considering Kickstarter and Stripe take 10 percent of a project's total and taxes take at least another 5 percent, that would have left us with around $10,000 — a modest sum.
1. There is no relationship between these two numbers. The fact that you are claiming you "need" $672,000 but decided to raise $10,000 shows you never intended to try and raise $672,000. So you are being deceptive about the purpose of kickstarter
2. Kickstarter projects should not be placing the risk of a project on backers who have almost no recourse if a project fails.
3. You can't discuss people's interrogartion of your funding model without acknowledging the number of scams and half baked products with deceptive pitches that have taken money and wither barely/failed to deliver or completely failed to live up to any semblance of the pitch people were interested in. (the r/shittykickstarters reddit is great for this.) although games as bad as hardware design, there have still been numerous high profile projects where backers were essentially screwed openly by designers.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 4:01 PM on May 19, 2015
So... side question: do game devs really only make 60k/year? That's of lot of money in global terms, but for software devs
Yeah I made about half that as a designer. I would be happy with 60k
posted by hellojed at 4:05 PM on May 19, 2015
Yeah I made about half that as a designer. I would be happy with 60k
posted by hellojed at 4:05 PM on May 19, 2015
So... side question: do game devs really only make 60k/year? That's of lot of money in global terms, but for software devs... not so much.
Assuming you mean AAA - depends on the role, same as anything:
The guys in the QA pit make $10-15/hour, straight 1099 so they also get nailed on taxes to boot.
Associate producers are generally $35-55K, full producers 55-70, and then project leads are in the $100k area.
Junior designers and artists hover around $45k, mid-level 55-65, and senior 70-90. Lead is $100+. Big exception is Riggers - add $10-20k for anyone with the intelligence to do that job *and* the ability to put up with something so horrifically dull.
Programmers typically start around 60-70, and cap out around 120.
posted by Ryvar at 4:08 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Assuming you mean AAA - depends on the role, same as anything:
The guys in the QA pit make $10-15/hour, straight 1099 so they also get nailed on taxes to boot.
Associate producers are generally $35-55K, full producers 55-70, and then project leads are in the $100k area.
Junior designers and artists hover around $45k, mid-level 55-65, and senior 70-90. Lead is $100+. Big exception is Riggers - add $10-20k for anyone with the intelligence to do that job *and* the ability to put up with something so horrifically dull.
Programmers typically start around 60-70, and cap out around 120.
posted by Ryvar at 4:08 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Reading the Polygon article, I'm skeptical about her thesis, that big Kickstarter projects asking for fractions of their actual costs have distorted perceptions about actual game costs resulting in fewer people willing to fund small games asking for their actual costs.
Her main evidence is that she got some nasty e-mails whining about the details of the budget of her bare-bones kickstarter for a small game. But, sadly, that kind of nastiness sounds like the crap game developers (and especially female developers) get no matter what they do. And although they are indeed nasty, it's probably a small number of people, and not really any sort of indicator of the reasons her potential audience did or didn't fund her game.
I would imagine that the vast majority of people kickstarting a game only care about:
1. Is this a game I want to play?
2. Do I think the developers can make this game if they get funded?
I would guess there are only a very small number of people who would refuse on principle to fund a game they want by developers they believe can deliver only because they thought the Kickstarter price was "too greedy." Generally if people are excited about a game and the team making it, they are happier the more money the Kickstarter receives.
If a game doesn't get funded, I think that's probably almost entirely because there aren't enough people who want to play it, and maybe somewhat because there wasn't enough confidence that the developers could make the game they were proposing, and hardly at all because of people whining about them asking for too much.
But then I don't really have any more data than she does about why people do or don't fund particular game kickstarters. blahblahblah, do you know of any real data about that?
posted by straight at 4:10 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Her main evidence is that she got some nasty e-mails whining about the details of the budget of her bare-bones kickstarter for a small game. But, sadly, that kind of nastiness sounds like the crap game developers (and especially female developers) get no matter what they do. And although they are indeed nasty, it's probably a small number of people, and not really any sort of indicator of the reasons her potential audience did or didn't fund her game.
I would imagine that the vast majority of people kickstarting a game only care about:
1. Is this a game I want to play?
2. Do I think the developers can make this game if they get funded?
I would guess there are only a very small number of people who would refuse on principle to fund a game they want by developers they believe can deliver only because they thought the Kickstarter price was "too greedy." Generally if people are excited about a game and the team making it, they are happier the more money the Kickstarter receives.
If a game doesn't get funded, I think that's probably almost entirely because there aren't enough people who want to play it, and maybe somewhat because there wasn't enough confidence that the developers could make the game they were proposing, and hardly at all because of people whining about them asking for too much.
But then I don't really have any more data than she does about why people do or don't fund particular game kickstarters. blahblahblah, do you know of any real data about that?
posted by straight at 4:10 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's just a preorder, you already paid for the r&d.
I suppose it's a bit heartless, but yeah, preorders with exclusive goodies are basically what I use Kickstarter for. If I want to donate money I either do it through a charity or back one of those Indie Go Go flex funding projects that's never going to make its goal (also essentially a charity).
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:10 PM on May 19, 2015
I suppose it's a bit heartless, but yeah, preorders with exclusive goodies are basically what I use Kickstarter for. If I want to donate money I either do it through a charity or back one of those Indie Go Go flex funding projects that's never going to make its goal (also essentially a charity).
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:10 PM on May 19, 2015
The people who give you direct feedback in forums or email are usually just a tiny, tiny fraction of your audience, and are almost by definition not representative of all the people who don't give you feedback.
posted by straight at 4:24 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 4:24 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The worst Kickstarters ever were the ones by Penny Arcade. Just blatant, blatant cash grabs. The recent one from the Oatmeal wasn't much better.
Kickstarter doesn't have a moral clause limiting it to "worthy" projects.
While I agree that the Penny Arcade guys make plenty of cash flow I have no clue how much capital they have and while they probably could have obtained a loan to fund printing/building whatever they kickstarted there's nothing inherently wrong with basically using Kickstarter as a preorder platform. Heck, projects like that are probably the biggest source of Kickstarter's own revenue which allows them to host all those tiny project with small budgets. I'm sure The Oatmeal guy couldn't have get the capital required to pre-print all the books he eventually sold.
I know Kickstarter has a "we're not a store" policy but clearly there's some blurry area between pre-sales and actually collecting funding something you're not sure if anybody wants.
The flip side of this complaint about already-built Kickstarter projects is that the ones where you're funding nothing more that a neat idea often end up dying before they produce anything.
But, that all said, there's still plenty of room to be cynical about Kickstarter projects. It is basically a marketing vehicle a lot of the time as the author of the OP points out. I agree that it would be useful to fully disclose all sources of anticipated funding so that you'll know if you're funding 10% of the actual project cost and it's just a preorder system.
I usually only back hardware projects which have bigger capital requirements and need specific numbers for manufacturing pre-orders and such. Those are where I think Kickstarter works well.
posted by GuyZero at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015
Kickstarter doesn't have a moral clause limiting it to "worthy" projects.
While I agree that the Penny Arcade guys make plenty of cash flow I have no clue how much capital they have and while they probably could have obtained a loan to fund printing/building whatever they kickstarted there's nothing inherently wrong with basically using Kickstarter as a preorder platform. Heck, projects like that are probably the biggest source of Kickstarter's own revenue which allows them to host all those tiny project with small budgets. I'm sure The Oatmeal guy couldn't have get the capital required to pre-print all the books he eventually sold.
I know Kickstarter has a "we're not a store" policy but clearly there's some blurry area between pre-sales and actually collecting funding something you're not sure if anybody wants.
The flip side of this complaint about already-built Kickstarter projects is that the ones where you're funding nothing more that a neat idea often end up dying before they produce anything.
But, that all said, there's still plenty of room to be cynical about Kickstarter projects. It is basically a marketing vehicle a lot of the time as the author of the OP points out. I agree that it would be useful to fully disclose all sources of anticipated funding so that you'll know if you're funding 10% of the actual project cost and it's just a preorder system.
I usually only back hardware projects which have bigger capital requirements and need specific numbers for manufacturing pre-orders and such. Those are where I think Kickstarter works well.
posted by GuyZero at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015
That's just a preorder, you already paid for the r&d.
I suppose it's a bit heartless, but yeah, preorders with exclusive goodies are basically what I use Kickstarter for.
Timely.
posted by sysinfo at 4:57 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I suppose it's a bit heartless, but yeah, preorders with exclusive goodies are basically what I use Kickstarter for.
Timely.
posted by sysinfo at 4:57 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Kickstarter pretty much gives the advantage to companies that already have one. I guess, as others have pointed out, it has often become a preordering vehicle with perks, the way department stores cosmetics kiosks used do.
You sort of know this will be some curiosity from oyr era given how it's setup. Archie Comics using Kickstarter was not cool, yet the built in publicity it can still generate is quite remarkable, like a high school bake sale to get enough dough for the yearly school trip.
I think the charm of it was giving donors power, but when it is the big players who already have it, some of the charm can wear off.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:10 PM on May 19, 2015
You sort of know this will be some curiosity from oyr era given how it's setup. Archie Comics using Kickstarter was not cool, yet the built in publicity it can still generate is quite remarkable, like a high school bake sale to get enough dough for the yearly school trip.
I think the charm of it was giving donors power, but when it is the big players who already have it, some of the charm can wear off.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:10 PM on May 19, 2015
You have inadvertently summoned me... the academic who studies Kickstarter (again)
kickstarter.... Kickstarter! KICKSTARTER!!
Whew! It's OK... he's gone now.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
kickstarter.... Kickstarter! KICKSTARTER!!
Whew! It's OK... he's gone now.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:13 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
You have to get me to say it backwards.
posted by blahblahblah at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by blahblahblah at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
The only real disappointment was CLANG!
I really wish they had managed to get a big studio to back them after the prototype.
posted by zippy at 6:50 PM on May 19, 2015
I really wish they had managed to get a big studio to back them after the prototype.
posted by zippy at 6:50 PM on May 19, 2015
So... side question: do game devs really only make 60k/year? That's of lot of money in global terms, but for software devs... not so much.
Programmers typically start around 60-70, and cap out around 120.
From firsthand experience I can tell you that it varies a lot. I ended a 20 year career in game development (about 15 of that as a programmer, and with an MIS degree) at $80K, and that was with a sharp upward curve in the last couple years. It started at $24K for what was more or less an operations job but also included actual game development. But YMMV with studio location and management evil and Stockholm Syndrome.
posted by Foosnark at 8:06 PM on May 19, 2015
Programmers typically start around 60-70, and cap out around 120.
From firsthand experience I can tell you that it varies a lot. I ended a 20 year career in game development (about 15 of that as a programmer, and with an MIS degree) at $80K, and that was with a sharp upward curve in the last couple years. It started at $24K for what was more or less an operations job but also included actual game development. But YMMV with studio location and management evil and Stockholm Syndrome.
posted by Foosnark at 8:06 PM on May 19, 2015
You have to get me to say it backwards.
Hah, as if you were capable of saying retratskcik. It's impossible.
posted by sysinfo at 8:32 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hah, as if you were capable of saying retratskcik. It's impossible.
posted by sysinfo at 8:32 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I ended a 20 year career in game development (about 15 of that as a programmer, and with an MIS degree) at $80K
Bad programmers (or, really, bad most things) don't typically last very long in the industry due to the constant org churn - so if you made it that long we can safely rule out any dearth of talent or commitment. But at the same time that's just-promoted-to-senior-programmer salary at basically any major studio - you should have been seeing that easily within 5 years, 7 tops. I don't doubt your honesty, but something's wrong or very unusual here.
(Source: years of being an associate producer and corresponding exposure to hiring negotiations. A fiancee who is currently an associate producer for a mid-sized game programming team.)
posted by Ryvar at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2015
Bad programmers (or, really, bad most things) don't typically last very long in the industry due to the constant org churn - so if you made it that long we can safely rule out any dearth of talent or commitment. But at the same time that's just-promoted-to-senior-programmer salary at basically any major studio - you should have been seeing that easily within 5 years, 7 tops. I don't doubt your honesty, but something's wrong or very unusual here.
(Source: years of being an associate producer and corresponding exposure to hiring negotiations. A fiancee who is currently an associate producer for a mid-sized game programming team.)
posted by Ryvar at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2015
sysinfo - I can do anything! I'll show you. retratskcik...
no͈͎͇̖̝̦ ̝n̼͕͓̥͖o̟͇̘̦ͅ ͚͉̱ṇ̻̤͍͍̺o̘̩̙ͅo̤͓̹̘̫͈̮o̥o̠̜o̻̣̜͕̠o̮̩̳̮!!!!
Curse you! You have tricked me for the last time, sysinfo, my old enemy. ᴵ ʳᵉᵗᵘʳᶰ ᵗᵒ ᵗʰᵉ ᴵᵛᵒʳʸ ᵀᵒʷᵉʳ⋅ ᴮᵘᵗ ᴵ ʷᶦᶫᶫ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ᵐʸ ʳᵉᵛᵉᶰᵍᵉ
posted by blahblahblah at 8:55 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
no͈͎͇̖̝̦ ̝n̼͕͓̥͖o̟͇̘̦ͅ ͚͉̱ṇ̻̤͍͍̺o̘̩̙ͅo̤͓̹̘̫͈̮o̥o̠̜o̻̣̜͕̠o̮̩̳̮!!!!
Curse you! You have tricked me for the last time, sysinfo, my old enemy. ᴵ ʳᵉᵗᵘʳᶰ ᵗᵒ ᵗʰᵉ ᴵᵛᵒʳʸ ᵀᵒʷᵉʳ⋅ ᴮᵘᵗ ᴵ ʷᶦᶫᶫ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ᵐʸ ʳᵉᵛᵉᶰᵍᵉ
posted by blahblahblah at 8:55 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
More importantly, how did a platform intended to support grassroots efforts and independent creators turn into a publisher-backed PR service where consumers actually pay large game companies to promote the game to them?
This is the axiom at the heart of every Kickstarter lament: that Kickstarter was supposed to be this ultimate weapon to free creators and bring The Man to his knees, but The Man found a way to ruin it. But was that ever the case? That's how it was sold in the beginning, but I think that's chiefly because nobody had figured out how crowd funding actually works. If KS wanted to end these kinds of projects they could... but they don't.
posted by Reyturner at 11:09 PM on May 19, 2015
This is the axiom at the heart of every Kickstarter lament: that Kickstarter was supposed to be this ultimate weapon to free creators and bring The Man to his knees, but The Man found a way to ruin it. But was that ever the case? That's how it was sold in the beginning, but I think that's chiefly because nobody had figured out how crowd funding actually works. If KS wanted to end these kinds of projects they could... but they don't.
posted by Reyturner at 11:09 PM on May 19, 2015
The real problem with at least the first Penny Arcade Kickstarter is that it violated Kickstarter's TOS, because it wasn't for funding something that hadn't been developed yet. Kickstarter ignored that, because they wanted their cut, and eventually just changed their TOS. I don't think that's as much Penny Arcade's problem as it is Kickstarter's.
And I've never funded Kickstarter, but I've bought some Greenlight games (most notable Kerbal Space Program), and I bought Minecraft way back in alpha, and I've reaped the benefits of some of the good Kickstarters (the Fate Core revamp, reading Numenera right now, enjoying Pillars of Eternity, hoping to play Divinity: Original Sin next, looking very forward to Torment). There have been plenty of broken promises, but people have started to learn to be less trusting, and I think, on average, it's a good thing.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:03 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I've never funded Kickstarter, but I've bought some Greenlight games (most notable Kerbal Space Program), and I bought Minecraft way back in alpha, and I've reaped the benefits of some of the good Kickstarters (the Fate Core revamp, reading Numenera right now, enjoying Pillars of Eternity, hoping to play Divinity: Original Sin next, looking very forward to Torment). There have been plenty of broken promises, but people have started to learn to be less trusting, and I think, on average, it's a good thing.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:03 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
So... side question: do game devs really only make 60k/year? That's of lot of money in global terms, but for software devs... not so much.
Yep, and it's a big part of the reason that everyone i know who works in games either went indie or fucked off to something else. A couple of them pretty much just walked across the street into open arms and signed up somewhere else for $30k more doing basically... anything else you can do as a software developer.
I still don't understand how basically any job in a game dev shop pays less than the same job somewhere else. No one is making $10-15 an hour doing QA at any other kind of software shop.
The entire thing seems to be collapsing in on itself from the pressure of everyone who got a shitty degree or worse something from a "game dev/programming/design" specific program filling up the supply side of the market, so they know they can pick from the best and pay them shitall.
It's going to have to change eventually, but it's gonna take a lot longer than it should.
posted by emptythought at 3:12 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yep, and it's a big part of the reason that everyone i know who works in games either went indie or fucked off to something else. A couple of them pretty much just walked across the street into open arms and signed up somewhere else for $30k more doing basically... anything else you can do as a software developer.
I still don't understand how basically any job in a game dev shop pays less than the same job somewhere else. No one is making $10-15 an hour doing QA at any other kind of software shop.
The entire thing seems to be collapsing in on itself from the pressure of everyone who got a shitty degree or worse something from a "game dev/programming/design" specific program filling up the supply side of the market, so they know they can pick from the best and pay them shitall.
It's going to have to change eventually, but it's gonna take a lot longer than it should.
posted by emptythought at 3:12 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Video game developer has the weird social pressure that you should be doing it because you love it, so you don't need to get paid as much.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:15 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:15 AM on May 20, 2015
Oh, and another thing. Kickstarter warns that there's Real Consequences if you don't do what you say and deliver your rewards and such.
I backed this hunk of shit years ago. It finally showed up, late but meh...
It fell apart in like, a week. It was obviously some kind of manufacturing defect because some of the rubber/plastic wasn't bonded right. It seemed pretty well designed and had some serious braided metal reinforcement but... defective.
I contacted them and they said "oh we'll get one right out to you". I saw other similar complaints elsewhere. They never replaced mine, and became seemingly impossible to contact.
If i had bought the cable on ebay or like... anywhere else besides from a random hobo on the street, i would have some kind of recourse. Obviously they realized that as long as they actually shipped the cables to people they didn't have to do shit afterwards.
Reminds me of ouya, on that front. I know people who had ouyas smoke and melt. Ouya didn't give a fuck. They didn't have to. They also did plainly bullshit things like ship early people shittier controllers and then pretend there was only one model of controller until wayyyy later on.(and acted like revision what, 5, was revision 2 and the only real "new" model)
Video game developer has the weird social pressure that you should be doing it because you love it, so you don't need to get paid as much.
Yea but this is more marketing driven by the people at the companies actually banking the real cash that they are, objectively, pulling in than anything else. Some of these games and especially studios in aggregate of their products(EA, valve, etc) are making oil company amounts of money. And if these guys scripting paths, animations, etc were scripting for CNC machines near an oil field they'd be getting paid at a bare ass minimum double, if not triple, or even more.
The "if you don't like it then move on, there's 5 guys to take your place lined up and waiting" nature of it is what's shit. "you're supposed to love it" is a fig leaf. And because the replacement thing is generally true, they can also get away with shit like "crunch mode".
Say what you will about the toxicity of silicon valley, at least people get paid. And really, people should be taught pretty early on that yea it's cool if you love your job, but you should be getting paid what it's worth. And hell, just maybe what its worth proportional to how much value you generate. But that's dirty commie speak. Even in like, objectivist sort of libertarian terms which brogrammers seem to really bond with, if someone across the street is going to pay you that much more to basically build the same boat with a different color of paint on it, you're being had.
posted by emptythought at 3:23 AM on May 20, 2015
I backed this hunk of shit years ago. It finally showed up, late but meh...
It fell apart in like, a week. It was obviously some kind of manufacturing defect because some of the rubber/plastic wasn't bonded right. It seemed pretty well designed and had some serious braided metal reinforcement but... defective.
I contacted them and they said "oh we'll get one right out to you". I saw other similar complaints elsewhere. They never replaced mine, and became seemingly impossible to contact.
If i had bought the cable on ebay or like... anywhere else besides from a random hobo on the street, i would have some kind of recourse. Obviously they realized that as long as they actually shipped the cables to people they didn't have to do shit afterwards.
Reminds me of ouya, on that front. I know people who had ouyas smoke and melt. Ouya didn't give a fuck. They didn't have to. They also did plainly bullshit things like ship early people shittier controllers and then pretend there was only one model of controller until wayyyy later on.(and acted like revision what, 5, was revision 2 and the only real "new" model)
Video game developer has the weird social pressure that you should be doing it because you love it, so you don't need to get paid as much.
Yea but this is more marketing driven by the people at the companies actually banking the real cash that they are, objectively, pulling in than anything else. Some of these games and especially studios in aggregate of their products(EA, valve, etc) are making oil company amounts of money. And if these guys scripting paths, animations, etc were scripting for CNC machines near an oil field they'd be getting paid at a bare ass minimum double, if not triple, or even more.
The "if you don't like it then move on, there's 5 guys to take your place lined up and waiting" nature of it is what's shit. "you're supposed to love it" is a fig leaf. And because the replacement thing is generally true, they can also get away with shit like "crunch mode".
Say what you will about the toxicity of silicon valley, at least people get paid. And really, people should be taught pretty early on that yea it's cool if you love your job, but you should be getting paid what it's worth. And hell, just maybe what its worth proportional to how much value you generate. But that's dirty commie speak. Even in like, objectivist sort of libertarian terms which brogrammers seem to really bond with, if someone across the street is going to pay you that much more to basically build the same boat with a different color of paint on it, you're being had.
posted by emptythought at 3:23 AM on May 20, 2015
What I haven't seen said anywhere yet is that there are different stated expectations for what Kickstarter is good for. Japanese devs in particular (for games and also for other content) have started using crowdsourcing as a way to ensure that they get the kind of monies they think they ought to get for releasing a project in America. The Western dev attitude seems to be "we just want to see this come to fruition and enter the market; if you do too, please join us," and the Japanese dev attitude is "it was probably going to get made anyway, but if you want this to be localized and released legally in your region/language in any way at all, you need to pony up early and at one of the levels we dictate to get a copy." This way there can be no waiting for a Steam sale, or a special event on Right Stuf or Amazon, or using gift cards you banked up at Best Buy or Gamestop later on; it's now (the Kickstarter time period) or never. See the now defunct site Anime Sols.
It's not about budgets, it's about profits.
I don't know what we as consumers do about that. I can't afford to spend $100-200 on a boxed set or deluxe edition on even a semi-regular basis, so I don't. I back both Western and Japanese devs, though - it depends on the project. I hear various reports about how Japanese companies are more reluctant to release physical product in the West because people like me won't bring in a guaranteed $150 per unit, which is too bad, because there is an interest, just not at that price level and not among as wide of a base as they may have in Japan. But I will probably be backing the Igavania Kickstarter at the $125 level, because I really, really want to see that specific project happen and I'm willing to splash out for the swag. I recognize that this might skew what I'm saying.
posted by koucha at 7:02 AM on May 20, 2015
It's not about budgets, it's about profits.
I don't know what we as consumers do about that. I can't afford to spend $100-200 on a boxed set or deluxe edition on even a semi-regular basis, so I don't. I back both Western and Japanese devs, though - it depends on the project. I hear various reports about how Japanese companies are more reluctant to release physical product in the West because people like me won't bring in a guaranteed $150 per unit, which is too bad, because there is an interest, just not at that price level and not among as wide of a base as they may have in Japan. But I will probably be backing the Igavania Kickstarter at the $125 level, because I really, really want to see that specific project happen and I'm willing to splash out for the swag. I recognize that this might skew what I'm saying.
posted by koucha at 7:02 AM on May 20, 2015
koucha, I don't understand what you think is wrong with that.
Before Kickstarter, you had Japanese devs assuming there wasn't enough interest in the Western market to make localization worth the time and effort, and so you didn't get the stuff you wanted released over here. After Kickstarter, they can find out if there's enough interest and if there is, you get a localized release that you wouldn't otherwise get. The only losers are the websites that get ad revenue from offering pirated bootleg downloads.
I don't see any problem with the Penny Arcade Kickstarter either. They had a podcast they had stopped doing a while back and, as is the right of every artist, decided they didn't want to do that creative work anymore without getting paid. Using Kickstarter to let fans pay what they wanted seems like a much better idea than putting a bunch of ads in the podcast. Would everyone rather they'd used some other service so that the jackasses at Paypal got a cut of the profits instead of Kickstarter?
I think big, high-profile Kickstarter projects introducing thousands of new people to Kickstarter and getting them signed up for Kickstarter accounts are probably making it more likely for smaller, low-profile projects to get attention and get funded, not less. It's so much easier to get people to use a system they've already used before. And how many small indie games do you think got funded because of the publicity around the Double Fine Kickstarter?
posted by straight at 6:49 PM on May 20, 2015
Before Kickstarter, you had Japanese devs assuming there wasn't enough interest in the Western market to make localization worth the time and effort, and so you didn't get the stuff you wanted released over here. After Kickstarter, they can find out if there's enough interest and if there is, you get a localized release that you wouldn't otherwise get. The only losers are the websites that get ad revenue from offering pirated bootleg downloads.
I don't see any problem with the Penny Arcade Kickstarter either. They had a podcast they had stopped doing a while back and, as is the right of every artist, decided they didn't want to do that creative work anymore without getting paid. Using Kickstarter to let fans pay what they wanted seems like a much better idea than putting a bunch of ads in the podcast. Would everyone rather they'd used some other service so that the jackasses at Paypal got a cut of the profits instead of Kickstarter?
I think big, high-profile Kickstarter projects introducing thousands of new people to Kickstarter and getting them signed up for Kickstarter accounts are probably making it more likely for smaller, low-profile projects to get attention and get funded, not less. It's so much easier to get people to use a system they've already used before. And how many small indie games do you think got funded because of the publicity around the Double Fine Kickstarter?
posted by straight at 6:49 PM on May 20, 2015
Straight, the article and the complaint about Igavania is that the Kickstarter is disingenuous because the game was already 90% funded by third parties. That is what I was responding to. My point is that Japanese companies don't Kickstart to get the game made (or only to get the game made), but to ensure the profit they expect, not just any profit. Particularly with localization projects, these profits come on top of domestic sales. Do I not want Japanese devs to make a profit? Of course I do, I never said I didn't want them to make a profit. I also understand that making region-appropriate DVDs, printing, translation, shipping, Paypal and other transactionary company fees, hiring voice actors, etc. requires money. My only complaint is that I wonder if Japanese expectations (frequently with little or no advertising) for Western sales are too high and the understanding of the Western market(s) too low. They aren't saying "Community, if you want this title it'll cost us $X to do," they're saying, "We require a guaranteed Z-fold return, up front, if we're going to consider this."
posted by koucha at 7:42 AM on May 22, 2015
posted by koucha at 7:42 AM on May 22, 2015
But are you supposing that in the absence of Kickstarter there would be something else that would get Japanese companies to release more region-appropriate stuff over here on better terms? It seems like the alternative has been just not getting the stuff at all.
posted by straight at 10:28 AM on May 22, 2015
posted by straight at 10:28 AM on May 22, 2015
In general, the success of various "dead genre" or "neglected region" Kickstarters seems to demonstrate that there is neglected demand for various products that traditional market research has missed. So it seems like AAA companies using something like Kickstarter to do better market research might be a win/win situation.
posted by straight at 10:31 AM on May 22, 2015
posted by straight at 10:31 AM on May 22, 2015
straight, I don't know if Japanese companies could be moved to release more content in the West without Kickstarter. It's for the Japanese companies to decide. That's what I have been saying. It is entirely for them to decide what will be released, and how. ANN has recorded interviews with Western licensor staff who have struggled with AAA companies to bring over and promote titles. Decisions are frequently made without Western input or insight at all, and then the companies are mad when titles don't sell as expected. Again, it is that expectation that is the problem. Prior to the Kickstarter era was the advent of streaming subscriptions - eManga, Crunchyroll, and the like. I think there have been successes and failures, but all of them have have been negotiated on the Japanese companies' terms.
You mention AAA companies using Kickstarter to do market research. Can you list the companies you are referring to? Inti Creates, which is made up of former Capcom staff members, isn't AAA, though they've worked with AAA companies. It would please me very much to know that AAA Japanese developers are paying serious attention to Kickstarter results, but I've seen no evidence of such a thing. If anything, news like the recent actions and statements of Konami seem to suggest they aren't.
posted by koucha at 10:12 PM on May 24, 2015
You mention AAA companies using Kickstarter to do market research. Can you list the companies you are referring to? Inti Creates, which is made up of former Capcom staff members, isn't AAA, though they've worked with AAA companies. It would please me very much to know that AAA Japanese developers are paying serious attention to Kickstarter results, but I've seen no evidence of such a thing. If anything, news like the recent actions and statements of Konami seem to suggest they aren't.
posted by koucha at 10:12 PM on May 24, 2015
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They really need to crack down on big established companies essentially doing preorders that let them skip credit card shipping/delivery time rules without having to really meet any requirements at all, also.
posted by emptythought at 3:08 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]