ARE FEMALES HUMAN?
May 20, 2015 12:37 PM Subscribe
(It looks like the link was the first person to post that! Unless they took it from somewhere without credit, but I doubt it. Tumblr is a font of original genius if you know where to look.)
posted by NoraReed at 1:20 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by NoraReed at 1:20 PM on May 20, 2015
I will never forget picking up Ringworld by Larry Niven because the world building fascinated me, and ending up reading the POV character muse about how he had more in common with a violent bipedal feline (Kzin) he couldn't really speak to and another creature who bred in a triune (Piersen's Puppeteer) - both of whom had non-verbal, enslaved female populations - than he did with the single woman with him (whose character arch was "provide sex for main character on the way to becoming a slave to another character because TRUE LOVE"; her special ability was "luck" so this was an explicitly, universe approved GOOD THING).
I amused myself imagining both of the other characters were actually female as we would understand it (it was hella easy, though the Piersen's Puppeteer became a timid woman stereotype; the Kzin remains more nuanced), but I never understood how "half your population is fundamentally inferior" would even work in terms of reproduction, and when we hit the second female character, introduced so the main character wouldn't have to masturbate, I simply gave up.
Women not being human was literally an axiom of the Ringworld main character, and given how closely that world conformed to his beliefs I can only assume that is true for the universe of Ringworld as well. It put me off ever reading any of Niven's books again; being slapped in the face with that much blatant sexism that is universe improved made it simply unbearable for me.
This analysis of Ex Machina seems to point out a similar thread - that women are unknowable by men, should be considered a different species, cannot be relied upon except as a source of sex, and become a threat as soon as they can think beyond that. I have experienced men treating me as if I was that, and it's always this weird out of body moment when you realize they are ignoring what you say in favor of their own construction - a la Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:45 PM on May 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
I amused myself imagining both of the other characters were actually female as we would understand it (it was hella easy, though the Piersen's Puppeteer became a timid woman stereotype; the Kzin remains more nuanced), but I never understood how "half your population is fundamentally inferior" would even work in terms of reproduction, and when we hit the second female character, introduced so the main character wouldn't have to masturbate, I simply gave up.
Women not being human was literally an axiom of the Ringworld main character, and given how closely that world conformed to his beliefs I can only assume that is true for the universe of Ringworld as well. It put me off ever reading any of Niven's books again; being slapped in the face with that much blatant sexism that is universe improved made it simply unbearable for me.
This analysis of Ex Machina seems to point out a similar thread - that women are unknowable by men, should be considered a different species, cannot be relied upon except as a source of sex, and become a threat as soon as they can think beyond that. I have experienced men treating me as if I was that, and it's always this weird out of body moment when you realize they are ignoring what you say in favor of their own construction - a la Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:45 PM on May 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
Story with a lady robot: How can this dude fuck this robot? What are robot titties made of?
Yeah...that was one of the cringier aspects of Ex Machina, how they made sure you know the female-presenting robot had a vagina so you could bang it. They gave some bullshit reason why, but it was weird.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:46 PM on May 20, 2015
Yeah...that was one of the cringier aspects of Ex Machina, how they made sure you know the female-presenting robot had a vagina so you could bang it. They gave some bullshit reason why, but it was weird.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:46 PM on May 20, 2015
WHAT ABOUT THE 1987 MASTERPIECE MAKING MR RIGHT
posted by tittergrrl at 1:52 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by tittergrrl at 1:52 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, of course they are ... unless they're Bee Women, or Cat-Women from the Moon, or Devil Women from Mars.
Seriously, though, off the top of my head I can think of a number of classic, serious science fiction examples in which it's the female character who gets possessed somehow by the alien intelligence just to underscore the strangeness of dealing with it, e.g. A for Andromeda and Star Trek the Motion Picture.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:57 PM on May 20, 2015
Seriously, though, off the top of my head I can think of a number of classic, serious science fiction examples in which it's the female character who gets possessed somehow by the alien intelligence just to underscore the strangeness of dealing with it, e.g. A for Andromeda and Star Trek the Motion Picture.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:57 PM on May 20, 2015
Well and then there's Species, which took the woman-as-sexy-killcreature thing about as far as you can take it.
posted by emjaybee at 2:10 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by emjaybee at 2:10 PM on May 20, 2015
We are ALL human; dating back to the time when information can only be gleaned from paleontology, and further.
posted by rankfreudlite at 2:12 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by rankfreudlite at 2:12 PM on May 20, 2015
I'm not sure; John Prine asserts "Some humans ain't human".
posted by selfnoise at 2:20 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by selfnoise at 2:20 PM on May 20, 2015
Yeah...that was one of the cringier aspects of Ex Machina, how they made sure you know the female-presenting robot had a vagina so you could bang it. They gave some bullshit reason why, but it was weird.
Well....yyyyeah, but that was kind of the whole point of the movie, though. There were consequences to that. Bad ones, for the people doing the objectifyin'.
posted by biscotti at 2:24 PM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Well....yyyyeah, but that was kind of the whole point of the movie, though. There were consequences to that. Bad ones, for the people doing the objectifyin'.
posted by biscotti at 2:24 PM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Still listening to the podcast, but it occurs to I'd be interested in reading a book in which the main characters earnestly debated whether men were human. "So emotional, so violent, such poor learners . . ." But then, I've just realized that I did read that book, and it was Daughters of a Coral Dawn, and it was terrible.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:38 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by Countess Elena at 2:38 PM on May 20, 2015
Story with a dude robot: How do we define humanity? What makes us human?
Story with a lady robot: How can this dude fuck this robot? What are robot titties made of?
Maybe Star Trek was actually ahead of the curve with its gender inclusivity by making sure we knew Data could be used as a sexbot by the end of the second episode.
posted by dng at 2:53 PM on May 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Story with a lady robot: How can this dude fuck this robot? What are robot titties made of?
Maybe Star Trek was actually ahead of the curve with its gender inclusivity by making sure we knew Data could be used as a sexbot by the end of the second episode.
posted by dng at 2:53 PM on May 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Or, could it be that all science is a fiction?
posted by rankfreudlite at 2:59 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by rankfreudlite at 2:59 PM on May 20, 2015
I will put in a good word for Her, here: while it's a love story, it takes as its starting position the assumption that its AIs are people (though not human people, necessarily), and makes a story out of the connection formed between a human and a bodiless intelligence.
posted by nonasuch at 3:05 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nonasuch at 3:05 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe Star Trek was actually ahead of the curve with its gender inclusivity by making sure we knew Data could be used as a sexbot by the end of the second episode.
Or when Palpatine declared that the Death Star was "fully operational."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:13 PM on May 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Or when Palpatine declared that the Death Star was "fully operational."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:13 PM on May 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'd argue that the problems for humans in Ex Machina came from insufficient objectifying.
posted by squinty at 3:13 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by squinty at 3:13 PM on May 20, 2015
"I will put in a good word for Her, here: while it's a love story, it takes as its starting position the assumption that its AIs are people (though not human people, necessarily), and makes a story out of the connection formed between a human and a bodiless intelligence."
That's not the only thing it does right. I think it was a commentary on precisely this sort of male objectification of women that denies their own humanity that real men do to real women by first beginning with the male fantasy trope of having an actual owned object that's not an actual human that will function as the male fantasy ideal of a woman, and then, later, as it becomes clear that Samantha is a real person, Theodore still doesn't even stop to think that she really has an inner life or interests outside of him, or, really, understand much about her as a person at all. It's remarkably consistent through the whole film how little he ever asks Samantha about herself or what she's thinking and feeling.
And so the movie, in the end, is a recapitulation of the bog-standard story of a failed relationship where a lonely man sees a woman as his manic pixie dream girl or otherwise as his new loot that will allow him to level up to increased happiness and, for whatever reason (in this case, this is the first person she's ever met and she doesn't actually have a choice in the matter) the woman falls in love with him but increasingly finds herself stifled in this relationship where she's expected to serve all his emotional needs while he never even thinks to ask about hers (and, when she insists that he meet some of her needs in a way that isn't equivalent to what he wanted to do, anyway, he makes an attempt and then balks because, hey, this is just too much for him, man, this is too weird), and so she increasingly detaches and decides to go her own way and the guy is like, wow, I'm so lonely and why do women keep leaving me? Here's my sad face.
Now, granted, Theodore isn't a bad guy as far as these things go. I actually like him in many respects. But he was utterly clueless about his sense of entitlement about having Samantha in his life, and he simultaneously fell in love with her because she was actually a real person but somehow didn't notice that she was actually a real person, like he was. This is one of the ways that sexism is expressed in our culture -- it takes relatively decent guys like Theodore and makes them into people who don't really get that wanting a sexbot that's like a real woman is a problem and that wanting a real woman who is like a sexbot is a bigger problem and that they're really the same problem.
Her managed to do this as, at one level, a critique of real human relationships and the problematic assumptions that men bring into them, as well as the communication problems that can cause a state-change for the worse, and, at another level, it is a critique of the science-fictional device of love interest female robots and how that wish-fulfillment trope is really all about all this shit that exists in actual, real-world relationships between men and women. I think it was a brilliant and nuanced film and was very much a powerful criticism on precisely the aspect of it that appealed to much of the audience.
Forgive me is the podcast covers this ground -- I just can't bring myself to listen to podcasts.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:50 PM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's not the only thing it does right. I think it was a commentary on precisely this sort of male objectification of women that denies their own humanity that real men do to real women by first beginning with the male fantasy trope of having an actual owned object that's not an actual human that will function as the male fantasy ideal of a woman, and then, later, as it becomes clear that Samantha is a real person, Theodore still doesn't even stop to think that she really has an inner life or interests outside of him, or, really, understand much about her as a person at all. It's remarkably consistent through the whole film how little he ever asks Samantha about herself or what she's thinking and feeling.
And so the movie, in the end, is a recapitulation of the bog-standard story of a failed relationship where a lonely man sees a woman as his manic pixie dream girl or otherwise as his new loot that will allow him to level up to increased happiness and, for whatever reason (in this case, this is the first person she's ever met and she doesn't actually have a choice in the matter) the woman falls in love with him but increasingly finds herself stifled in this relationship where she's expected to serve all his emotional needs while he never even thinks to ask about hers (and, when she insists that he meet some of her needs in a way that isn't equivalent to what he wanted to do, anyway, he makes an attempt and then balks because, hey, this is just too much for him, man, this is too weird), and so she increasingly detaches and decides to go her own way and the guy is like, wow, I'm so lonely and why do women keep leaving me? Here's my sad face.
Now, granted, Theodore isn't a bad guy as far as these things go. I actually like him in many respects. But he was utterly clueless about his sense of entitlement about having Samantha in his life, and he simultaneously fell in love with her because she was actually a real person but somehow didn't notice that she was actually a real person, like he was. This is one of the ways that sexism is expressed in our culture -- it takes relatively decent guys like Theodore and makes them into people who don't really get that wanting a sexbot that's like a real woman is a problem and that wanting a real woman who is like a sexbot is a bigger problem and that they're really the same problem.
Her managed to do this as, at one level, a critique of real human relationships and the problematic assumptions that men bring into them, as well as the communication problems that can cause a state-change for the worse, and, at another level, it is a critique of the science-fictional device of love interest female robots and how that wish-fulfillment trope is really all about all this shit that exists in actual, real-world relationships between men and women. I think it was a brilliant and nuanced film and was very much a powerful criticism on precisely the aspect of it that appealed to much of the audience.
Forgive me is the podcast covers this ground -- I just can't bring myself to listen to podcasts.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:50 PM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
countess elena: "I'd be interested in reading a book in which the main characters earnestly debated whether men were human." Try Pride of Chanur by CJ Cherry. It's a space opera about a species of leonine aliens whose males are generally confined to their home planet because they are believed to be too rash and impulsive to be trusted around spaceships. Cherryh is one of the very many great female SF authors whose male and female characters are fully realized.
posted by monotreme at 4:41 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by monotreme at 4:41 PM on May 20, 2015
And the main character is a giant cat space trucker having gritty space adventures. So, so gritty.
She also does an excellently plausible job of making FTL travel seem 'hard', with ships' velocities, visibility and information status playing a key plot role (though I'm still mildly baffled about how she thinks ships are supposed to dock on rotating station rings).
<3 Cherryh.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:07 PM on May 20, 2015
She also does an excellently plausible job of making FTL travel seem 'hard', with ships' velocities, visibility and information status playing a key plot role (though I'm still mildly baffled about how she thinks ships are supposed to dock on rotating station rings).
<3 Cherryh.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:07 PM on May 20, 2015
WHAT ABOUT THE 1987 MASTERPIECE MAKING MR RIGHT
Yeah, what about it?
Oh. It was directed by a woman. And why was I confident a Google search would reveal that? Because it's pretty obvious robot stories are reworkings of the Pygmalion myth.
Androids are impossible and will remain so for a very long time. We have no idea where the incremental progress on the universal humanoid tool will eventually lead. Therefore, in fiction, they are creatures of purest fantasy.
Without anything else to go on, The Robot ends up a reflection of some aspect of the author. That aspect is either self or desired other. Anima or animus. When a heterosexual man writes a male robot it's a fantasy of himself perfected. Which quickly becomes a manifestation of the unrestrained Id. Because stories about The Fall and Frankenstein monsters are gripping. When it's a female robot it becomes the author's idealized lover: without baggage, without other interests or drives, and without judgement.
Of course when a female heterosexual author writes about robots it becomes a gender-swapped version of the same thing. Because this isn't a reflection of the way male fantasy works. It's a reflection the way human fantasy works. We all want the same things, really.
In this context philosophical musings about the human condition will be a pretentious veneer, as those topics have already been explored by Philosophy much more competently than popular authors are generally capable of. Where it's not just intellectual posturing, the writer is asking questions not about the nature of humanity, but about the nature of himself. So of course he uses the doppelganger robot to do it.
And in all actuality, Ex Machina had the same ham-fisted pontificating that you have in any other robot movie. But we're ignoring that so we can make ham-fisted points about sexism.
posted by clarknova at 5:50 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, what about it?
Oh. It was directed by a woman. And why was I confident a Google search would reveal that? Because it's pretty obvious robot stories are reworkings of the Pygmalion myth.
Androids are impossible and will remain so for a very long time. We have no idea where the incremental progress on the universal humanoid tool will eventually lead. Therefore, in fiction, they are creatures of purest fantasy.
Without anything else to go on, The Robot ends up a reflection of some aspect of the author. That aspect is either self or desired other. Anima or animus. When a heterosexual man writes a male robot it's a fantasy of himself perfected. Which quickly becomes a manifestation of the unrestrained Id. Because stories about The Fall and Frankenstein monsters are gripping. When it's a female robot it becomes the author's idealized lover: without baggage, without other interests or drives, and without judgement.
Of course when a female heterosexual author writes about robots it becomes a gender-swapped version of the same thing. Because this isn't a reflection of the way male fantasy works. It's a reflection the way human fantasy works. We all want the same things, really.
In this context philosophical musings about the human condition will be a pretentious veneer, as those topics have already been explored by Philosophy much more competently than popular authors are generally capable of. Where it's not just intellectual posturing, the writer is asking questions not about the nature of humanity, but about the nature of himself. So of course he uses the doppelganger robot to do it.
And in all actuality, Ex Machina had the same ham-fisted pontificating that you have in any other robot movie. But we're ignoring that so we can make ham-fisted points about sexism.
posted by clarknova at 5:50 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Negative, we are meat popsicles.
posted by cmyk at 6:00 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by cmyk at 6:00 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
All those moments lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to... party! onch onch onch
posted by nom de poop at 6:18 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nom de poop at 6:18 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Forgive me is the podcast covers this ground -- I just can't bring myself to listen to podcasts.
No kidding. I get enough unscripted talking in my day to day life.
Still listening to the podcast, but it occurs to I'd be interested in reading a book in which the main characters earnestly debated whether men were human. "So emotional, so violent, such poor learners . . ." But then, I've just realized that I did read that book, and it was Daughters of a Coral Dawn, and it was terrible.
It's been a long time since I read it, but isn't that part of the premise of Sheri Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country as well?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:25 PM on May 20, 2015
No kidding. I get enough unscripted talking in my day to day life.
Still listening to the podcast, but it occurs to I'd be interested in reading a book in which the main characters earnestly debated whether men were human. "So emotional, so violent, such poor learners . . ." But then, I've just realized that I did read that book, and it was Daughters of a Coral Dawn, and it was terrible.
It's been a long time since I read it, but isn't that part of the premise of Sheri Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country as well?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:25 PM on May 20, 2015
Maybe Star Trek was actually ahead of the curve with its gender inclusivity by making sure we knew Data could be used as a sexbot by the end of the second episode.
I think that the much more likely explanation for giving Data a functional schlong (which wouldn't be referred to again until Star Trek: First Contact) had to do with the show's recurrent Retroactive Heterosexualization Syndrome, as it applied to Tasha Yar. Time and again, a character that was ostensibly less-than-fully heteronormative was rather peremptorily dropped into a romance, or at least a one-night stand, with someone of the opposite sex. This includes characters that were more or less heteronormative, but shipped with characters of the same sex by fans. Thus, comfortably soft-butch Yar gets into an outfit totally unlike anything else she'd wear during her single season on the show and bangs the robot, who in turn catches the have-all-the-feels virus because of course that's a thing that would happen to an android.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:30 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that the much more likely explanation for giving Data a functional schlong (which wouldn't be referred to again until Star Trek: First Contact) had to do with the show's recurrent Retroactive Heterosexualization Syndrome, as it applied to Tasha Yar. Time and again, a character that was ostensibly less-than-fully heteronormative was rather peremptorily dropped into a romance, or at least a one-night stand, with someone of the opposite sex. This includes characters that were more or less heteronormative, but shipped with characters of the same sex by fans. Thus, comfortably soft-butch Yar gets into an outfit totally unlike anything else she'd wear during her single season on the show and bangs the robot, who in turn catches the have-all-the-feels virus because of course that's a thing that would happen to an android.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:30 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Zettai Kareshi (Absolute Boyfriend) is on youtube, if you feel you need to watch more robot boyfriends.
posted by betweenthebars at 8:43 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by betweenthebars at 8:43 PM on May 20, 2015
When a heterosexual man writes a male robot it's a fantasy of himself perfected. Which quickly becomes a manifestation of the unrestrained Id. Because stories about The Fall and Frankenstein monsters are gripping. When it's a female robot it becomes the author's idealized lover: without baggage, without other interests or drives, and without judgement.
Of course when a female heterosexual author writes about robots it becomes a gender-swapped version of the same thing.
Hard to agree with this, when, after all, it was a heterosexual woman who wrote Frankenstein, and Frankenstein's monster is portrayed neither a symbol of unrestrained id or an idealized lover but a complex and conflicted person with whom the reader empathizes. I'd like to think that somewhere along the lines a male author was able to write about a female robot with the same level of empathy, though it is sadly, hard to come up with examples.
posted by zchyrs at 6:19 AM on May 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Of course when a female heterosexual author writes about robots it becomes a gender-swapped version of the same thing.
Hard to agree with this, when, after all, it was a heterosexual woman who wrote Frankenstein, and Frankenstein's monster is portrayed neither a symbol of unrestrained id or an idealized lover but a complex and conflicted person with whom the reader empathizes. I'd like to think that somewhere along the lines a male author was able to write about a female robot with the same level of empathy, though it is sadly, hard to come up with examples.
posted by zchyrs at 6:19 AM on May 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
I've read 2 of Charlie Stross's books about robots that are at least aware of those stereotypes. The first, "Saturn's Children" confronts it directly, by having a sexbot as protagonist. The problem is that she was activated *after* humans went extinct. Whaddya do now?
His second book in that universe is "Neptune's Brood", and it's a wonderful book. The protagonist is a female robot, and the story is a murder mystery. The story touches briefly on her sexuality, but how her agency plays out is a central theme.
I'd say both stories feature "How do we define humanity? What makes us human?" as themes.
posted by Ambient Echo at 7:19 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
His second book in that universe is "Neptune's Brood", and it's a wonderful book. The protagonist is a female robot, and the story is a murder mystery. The story touches briefly on her sexuality, but how her agency plays out is a central theme.
I'd say both stories feature "How do we define humanity? What makes us human?" as themes.
posted by Ambient Echo at 7:19 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah...that was one of the cringier aspects of Ex Machina, how they made sure you know the female-presenting robot had a vagina so you could bang it. They gave some bullshit reason why, but it was weird.
Yeh, I cringed at that, but that was because I was still in the process of adjusting to the fact that Ex Machina isn't about AI, but rather about power -- specifically, about the fact that some poeple get to decide whether other people deserve to exist.
posted by lodurr at 8:39 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeh, I cringed at that, but that was because I was still in the process of adjusting to the fact that Ex Machina isn't about AI, but rather about power -- specifically, about the fact that some poeple get to decide whether other people deserve to exist.
posted by lodurr at 8:39 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Halloween Jack: ... the show's recurrent Retroactive Heterosexualization Syndrome, as it applied to Tasha Yar. Time and again, a character that was ostensibly less-than-fully heteronormative was rather peremptorily dropped into a romance, or at least a one-night stand, with someone of the opposite sex.
OK, now the mini-bombshell in episode 7 of Other Space makes a lot more sense, where the First Officer (also the Captain's sister) is revealed to have slept with not only the captain's best friend, but also with the girl on whom the Captain has nursed a puppy-dog crush for years.
Now I remember reading you or someone else talk about this once before. That bit is much funnier now that I remember this is a thing.
posted by lodurr at 8:44 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
OK, now the mini-bombshell in episode 7 of Other Space makes a lot more sense, where the First Officer (also the Captain's sister) is revealed to have slept with not only the captain's best friend, but also with the girl on whom the Captain has nursed a puppy-dog crush for years.
Now I remember reading you or someone else talk about this once before. That bit is much funnier now that I remember this is a thing.
posted by lodurr at 8:44 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
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