Windows 10, a free upgrade for many, the last "version" of Windows
June 5, 2015 12:45 PM   Subscribe

 
The first taste is always free.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:51 PM on June 5, 2015 [11 favorites]


Has anyone tried 10 out yet? I've been seeing basically positive reviews.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:56 PM on June 5, 2015


Just to avoid some FUD:
* No, it will not be a subscription or paid service after the first year. Upgrades just won't be free.
* Non-genuine versions can be upgraded for free to Windows 10, but that doesn't make them genuine. It just means you'll get a Windows10 nag screen asking you to pay for it, instead of a WindowsXP nag screen.
* If you install Windows 10 you agree (as part of the EULA) that you MUST install all updates (aka Windows Update). Only Enterprise (and some business) versions can "delay" updates.

My personal opinion: I'm running it on all my systems now, and it's awesome, unfinished, and a no-brainer. That being said, O/S upgrades are starting to matter less and less because the web-browser is the real O/S.
posted by blue_beetle at 12:56 PM on June 5, 2015 [21 favorites]


> No, it will not be a subscription or paid service after the first year. Upgrades just won't be free.

So it sounds like they're not actually moving to a subscription model.

Which is good, because a subscription model for an OS would be a horrible idea.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:00 PM on June 5, 2015 [5 favorites]


" If you install Windows 10 you agree (as part of the EULA) that you MUST install all updates (aka Windows Update). Only Enterprise (and some business) versions can "delay" updates."

By "some business" you mean "Professional Edition", right?

Also, they're going to change that the very first time they botch an update or risk multiple reminders about Windows ME.
posted by I-baLL at 1:00 PM on June 5, 2015


Wait so, changing directories in the future requires that I pay someone? Operating Systems, by my definition, were the things that let you control your computer. Paying to use components that you already have is an odd paradigm indeed. Why not just have me swipe a credit card every time I want to operate my printer?
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:00 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


> That being said, O/S upgrades are starting to matter less and less because the web-browser is the real O/S.

UI != OS
posted by Westringia F. at 1:02 PM on June 5, 2015 [41 favorites]


So is there stuff that's better than 8.1 beyond "you don't need to install a program to give you the start menu back"? I've been pretty happy with 8.1.

"Before you start the upgrade process", btw, is an excellent time to ask yourself "Do I have everything I really need backed up?"
posted by selfnoise at 1:03 PM on June 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


I know some people have reported getting better graphics performance in games under Windows 10 vs 7/8.
posted by kmz at 1:05 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've actually come around on 8.whatever, despite hating it at first. It's what Windows has always been: good enough. The app store was a huge bust, and the start menu is more a nuisance than anything, but once they patched all that stuff far enough in the background it's really just a pretty version of 7.

I'm not sure I'll care enough to move toSo is there stuff that's better than 8.1 beyond "you don't need to install a program to give you the start menu back"? I've been pretty happy with 8.1. 10, so long as there's continued security support for 8. I definitely do not like the subscription model, and unless my university has a deal with MS to give me a free version of it, that holds zero appeal for me.
posted by codacorolla at 1:05 PM on June 5, 2015


Also, oh baby, the built-in Skype app for 8.1, that I'm too lazy to change back to the real version, is THE WORST FUCKING SOFTWARE I'VE EVER USED IN MY LIFE.
posted by codacorolla at 1:07 PM on June 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'd be a lot more confident that Windows 10 wasn't going to start pushing ads at me if they'd let me turn off that Windows 10 ad in my taskbar. In Windows 7, at least, no matter how many times you tell Windows to hide the Windows 10 icon and updates, it keeps coming back.
posted by straight at 1:09 PM on June 5, 2015 [7 favorites]


And yeah, I've seen no evidence there's going to be a subscription model. I'm betting Windows 10 will be the last "version" in the same way that OS X is the last "version" of MacOS.
posted by kmz at 1:10 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wait, paying for changing directories, subscriptions for OS, forced upgrade paths...is that anywhere verified? I'm only seeing articles that guess at future plans, but nothing actually verified, yes?
posted by dejah420 at 1:11 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


UI != OS

It isn't just a UI when it has several interpreters and/or runtimes will full-ish APIs built-in. Java, Javascript, flash and unity are all commonly part of that UI. Bowsers haven't just been UIs since the first java applet was embedded in a page.
posted by bonehead at 1:13 PM on June 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


By "some business" you mean "Professional Edition", right?

No, not really. It depends on the "branch" you're on whether you will be required to take updates or not.

UI != OS

True, but Chrome runs the same for me on Win7,8,10,OSX,Ubuntu,etc. Most days I don't care what the O/S is.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:14 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


Are you sure that this
No, it will not be a subscription or paid service after the first year. Upgrades just won't be free.
and this
If you install Windows 10 you agree (as part of the EULA) that you MUST install all updates (aka Windows Update).
doesn't mean that upgrades are both not free and mandatory?
posted by straight at 1:16 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


Why not just have me swipe a credit card every time I want to operate my printer?

Isn't that pretty much the business model behind ink cartridges?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:17 PM on June 5, 2015 [29 favorites]


updates are not the same as upgrades.
posted by desjardins at 1:17 PM on June 5, 2015 [13 favorites]


> No, it will not be a subscription or paid service after the first year. Upgrades just won't be free.

> So it sounds like they're not actually moving to a subscription model.

Which is good, because a subscription model for an OS would be a horrible idea.


It's not a final thing, and it's not an explicit part of the Windows 10 plan. The next iteration of Windows will not be Windows 11 (or 12, skipping versions like they did when they skipped Windows 9 intentionally) will simply be "Windows." Microsoft is also shifting from major updates to a constant flow of updates, more akin to web browsers and Adobe subscription services. Tie that together with past comments from upper management who see software as a loss, while subscription services are a gain, and signs are pointing (from some viewpoints) to the direction of OS as a subscription service.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:18 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


The only thing I want to know: does it play nice with Office 2013?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:20 PM on June 5, 2015


updates are not the same as upgrades.

If they're not releasing explicitly numbered Windows versions anymore, what is the difference?
posted by straight at 1:21 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


updates are not the same as upgrades.

What about security patches to vulnerabilities in the OS and key apps like IE? Are those in the update or upgrade pipeline?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:22 PM on June 5, 2015


As a side note: Windows 7 is no longer supported on new macs, so you're into 8 or 10 if you want to bootcamp.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:23 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]



OS as a subscription service.

So basically I'll need to pay for the pain of hunting for a standard utility that has just been moved to yet another unintuitive menu path without any actual change to the functionality.
posted by sammyo at 1:24 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


bonehead: "It isn't just a UI when it has several interpreters and runtimes will full-ish APIs built into to it."

That's fair. The browser is a "program", or a unit of execution within the operating system.

Anyway, W10 seems to be rocking it in the nightlies. They had a ton of outre ideas on display at their IGNITE conference (W10 on a raspberry pi, for instance). The post-Ballmer Microsoft is turning out to be a genuinely interesting company.
posted by boo_radley at 1:24 PM on June 5, 2015


Windows 8.1 integrated OneDrive (formerly SkyDrive) with the OS, so that you have to log in to the whole OS with a Windows Live account in order to use OneDrive (it used to work like Dropbox, as a standalone program which you could log in to while still using a local OS account). Now Windows 10's Start menu search uses Cortana (voice-activated local+web search) and also requires a Live account. If you jump through the hoops necessary to keep using a local account, you can''t use Cortana, and it gets replaced by Bing advertisements. The whole OS is like this: there are reminders everywhere that you need a Live account to use it properly, and there's no way I'm going to have my whole computer that integrated with Microsoft's cloud services.
posted by Rangi at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2015 [12 favorites]


There's also a $10 price hike for OEM copies which is just a giant middle finger to small system builders. Fuck you, Microsoft.
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on June 5, 2015


updates are not the same as upgrades.

That's probably the key insight in this discussion for non-savvy noobs like me.

Windows 10 will continue to provide mandatory, free updates - patches to fix security problems and the like. But they'll charge money for upgrades - ie: new features or anything that makes the OS run better.

So if there's anything in 10 that users will absolutely hate (like the initial lack of a start button in 8), they'll have to pay to get rid of it.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:37 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


Windows XP SP1 added USB 2.0 support (which was pretty big), MS Java, MS .NET, and the Media centre stuff.

Windows XP SP2 added drive encryption, an ad blocker to ie6, and (some) bluetooth support

Windows XP SP3 added a bunch of backports from Vista, and security and group management stuff.

Later (and earlier) versions of windows have similar histories. MS has never really distinguished free bugfixes from just paid upgrades in service packs or in updates.

Historically, they've tended to get people to pay for a new version when they have major UI or architectural revisions. It seems like they want to move away from that, but it's not clear to me yet, from reading all the links, whether the marker paying for a new product will be just an annual event, some regular release schedule or a periodic ad hoc release of a new set of features (a "version").
posted by bonehead at 1:39 PM on June 5, 2015


The post-Ballmer Microsoft is turning out to be a genuinely interesting company

Not firing Ballmer earlier was the worst thing MS has ever done.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:43 PM on June 5, 2015 [19 favorites]


I misread:

"Microsoft has developed the HoboLens augmented reality system for use with Windows 10"
posted by thelonius at 1:44 PM on June 5, 2015 [9 favorites]


I have Windows 8 on my home computers now, and it just seems like a complicated way to get at simple stuff (but then I am a very simpleminded user of computers). Where it has made a big difference though is on my Windows Phone, which I was not expecting at all. Despite having some incredibly ridiculous problems & some outrageously silly lack-of-logical-functionality, it really works much better than I had ever expected. Clearly 8 was designed for touch screens and if you don't have them (which I don't on my home computers) then the GUI is like a bicycle for your fish.
posted by chavenet at 1:47 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


The real news is that we've reached the end of the desktop computer.

They can announce Windows 10 as the "last version" because Microsoft - and most people - basically don't ever expect the desktop PC to ever again have any meaningful changes.

There will be no more new peripherals. They've all been invented.
There will be no new networking stacks.
The device driver model is finished.
64-bit address spaces are it for desktop PCs.
They don't need to change Windows in any user-facing way to support newer underlying architectures - PCI Express 5, 6, 7, 8, whatever is basically the same as the current version.

The slogan for Windows 10?

"Stick A Fork In It."
posted by GuyZero at 1:49 PM on June 5, 2015 [12 favorites]


HoboLens has got to be the worst product name of all time.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:49 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


MS really wants us to have touchscreens even on laptops, I think. If the Surface is what they think computers should become (and they're making a pretty credible argument for that, IMO), then touchscreen UIs make prefect sense. It's just a few years early for the rest of the market.
posted by bonehead at 1:49 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]




64-bit address spaces are it for desktop PCs.

64-bit is the new 640kb?

Ironic.
posted by Talez at 1:58 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


The slogan for Windows 10?

That could be pretty close to accurate. Especially with Steam Boxes getting pretty close to market, which are aiming to make sure that nobody ever has to build their own gaming PC ever again.
posted by codacorolla at 1:59 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Is anyone still running the preview? When I tried it the full screen menu from Windows 8 was gone and replaced with an oversized Start menu. Horrible for my Surface. I know there was talk about a "tablet mode and desktop mode". Has that happened?
posted by charred husk at 2:02 PM on June 5, 2015


Microsoft HoboLens with Extreme-Bindle Plus-Pack Pro Edition 2016 SP2
posted by blue_beetle at 2:03 PM on June 5, 2015 [17 favorites]


According to the last link, Cortana is replacing Bing on the new Spartan browser. I'm a little unclear on what a "digital assistant" is, but it sounds like it runs on Microsoft's servers and adapts itself to you over time as it learns things like where you live, what you like to search for, and so on. Is this something we're all going to need soon, or is it a feature I can safely ignore?
posted by Kevin Street at 2:04 PM on June 5, 2015


64-bit is the new 640kb

or

18.1 exabytes is the new 640 kilobytes?
posted by Wood at 2:10 PM on June 5, 2015 [5 favorites]


Google has Google Now, which tries to do that. Some things it does well. Like sending me a push notification when I'm at work around 5:00 PM to let me know what traffic is like. Some things it does poorly. Like when I looked up Glenn Beck one time to see how old he was and it sent me Glenn Beck news for the next month.
posted by codacorolla at 2:11 PM on June 5, 2015 [12 favorites]


robbyrobs: "Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 10130 for PCs"

"Microsoft Print to PDF" -- hooray, hopefully this kills off XPS.
posted by boo_radley at 2:14 PM on June 5, 2015 [9 favorites]


18.1 exabytes is the new 640 kilobytes?

18 EB ought to be enough for anybody.

There, I said it.

And no one from 2450 travelled back in time to slap my face.

[looks nervously over shoulder]
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:18 PM on June 5, 2015 [13 favorites]


If we're still using any version of Windows in 2450, we're gonna be in trouble...

(I say as I program in a language originally designed to work with punch cards...)
posted by kmz at 2:24 PM on June 5, 2015 [7 favorites]


So basically I'll need to pay for the pain of hunting for a standard utility that has just been moved to yet another unintuitive menu path without any actual change to the functionality.

As an aside, you don't need to hunt. Windows does that for you. Just go to Start and type the name of the utility in the search box. Usually it pops up after the first three or four characters. Click to run. Quicker than plowing through a menu tree.

If you really want the path, right click on the utility icon and look at properties. In the properties pop up under Location, it shows either the path to the executable or the menu path to the shortcut.
posted by JackFlash at 2:26 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm a little unclear on what a "digital assistant" is

BonziBuddy!
posted by jason_steakums at 2:26 PM on June 5, 2015 [5 favorites]


^ Truly ahead of their time.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2015


I'm a little unclear on what a "digital assistant" is

Mandatory free upgrade adds speech-enabled Clippy to all MS Office programs; optional paid upgrade allows Clippy to be silenced and/or uninstalled.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 2:32 PM on June 5, 2015 [8 favorites]


Touchscreens on laptops? Who needs THAT?

And now I'm constantly frustrated when I tap a laptop screen which doesn't have it.

To be sure, you don't use it all the time, but inconspicuously I have come to use it quite often. Often enough that a lack of it surprises and mildly irritates me.

I need a touchscreen on a laptop, now.

And an OS which makes where I use that functionality easier to hit; window ops (close, min/maximise: please make it so that when I hit that area, a popup appears and I can slide my finger to the desired function), hitting entry fields (make the keyboard popup on a tablet, please!), moving things around, clicking icons ... touch has snuck unobtrusively into my workflow on a laptop.
Not on my desktop pc, though: I find I have no use for it there.

MS screwed up by insisting on one UI to rule them all, but they seem to very slowly have come to realise that ashared look does not mean a shared UI is a good idea, and that phone, tablet, laptop and desktop NEED different UI's because the method of comfortable interaction is different for them.
posted by MacD at 2:37 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


They can announce Windows 10 as the "last version" because Microsoft - and most people - basically don't ever expect the desktop PC to ever again have any meaningful changes.

Microsoft is still working on replacing NTFS with ReFS, so that's a pretty important change still on the way.

I'm curious to see what Microsoft's plans are here. Thankfully, I can wait to see what happens all from the safety of my Linux partition.
posted by Dalby at 2:39 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Microsoft is still working on replacing NTFS with ReFS, so that's a pretty important change still on the way.

I think The FAT-NTFS move mostly decoupled Windows from being too hard-coded to specific filesystems. I think? Anyway, making filesystems a pluggable thing is pretty well understood these days. Linux people have been doing it for ages.

But who knows if ReFS will even migrate from Win Server to desktop.
posted by GuyZero at 2:43 PM on June 5, 2015


I'm not so excited about yet another Microsoft proprietary filesystem. Note that the only non-patent-encumbered (besides NTFS, which is undocumented) filesystem on Windows is still FAT16 w/o long filenames (and Microsoft is quick to wave its patent stick at infringers). FAT32 is still the only read/write filesystem supported out-of-the-box on Mac, Windows, and Linux.

FAT32 is almost 20 years old. It should be no surprise that Microsoft is trying to extend its filesystem patent monopoly another 20 years with ReFS.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:57 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


The real news is that we've reached the end of the desktop computer.

They can announce Windows 10 as the "last version" because Microsoft - and most people - basically don't ever expect the desktop PC to ever again have any meaningful changes.


Isn't it Windows 10 on the phones and tablets too?

I agree with the people speculating that they mean they're changing their release model to something like OSX, iOS, and Android. That is, Windows 10 is the last release to uses their previous release model, where each version was sold as a separate product, and new ones only came out every 3 years, and upgrading was a big deal, in terms of cost, hassle, and differences.

For forever, the biggest competition to the newest version of Windows, was the previous version of Windows, except maybe for Win7 where it was XP instead of Vista. Three years after the release of windows 8, windows 8/8.1 has roughly the same install base as Windows XP. Windows it increases their support requirements (have they ever not had to extend support for old versions way past their initial plans?), it hurts the ecosystem (everyone has to develop and test software for 3 different versions of the OS, and can't use new features), and it hurts microsoft's ability to move the platform forward (or whatever dumb direction they want to go). How could a windows 8 app store succeed if it's not accessible 85% of windows users?

I don't know how they'll adjust their business model. Maybe they hope they can get where Apple is, where the OS is free, but the App Store is a big money maker. Maybe they're hoping to make it back on other paid services. I dunno.
posted by aubilenon at 2:57 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


The app store was a huge bust, and the start menu is more a nuisance than anything, but once they patched all that stuff far enough in the background it's really just a pretty version of 7.

wait, is there a way to fix the start menu? Because when I hit the start button (which I now try to avoid as much as possible) it still opens this awful full screen thing with squares that is a complete pain to deal with.
posted by shmegegge at 3:00 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Actually - the App Store isn't a big money maker for Apple. I mean - it's a billion or a couple dollars, which would count as real money for most companies. Apple's revenue stream begins and more ore less ends with their hardware margins. Which is why they have such high hardware margins.
posted by wotsac at 3:00 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't get it. According to "review my update history" (Win 7), I do have "update KB3035583" installed successfully but I am not getting any notifications. The settings are ticked for check for updates. I feel like everyone's invited to the big party but me.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:06 PM on June 5, 2015


"Stick A Fork In It."

In some ways, this was always the goal. OSes SHOULDN'T be innovative anymore, and although Linux figured this out a while ago, it's kind of becoming the standard approach, finally. Just eke out some more speed, security and stability and get on with it. When software gets boring, it frees us to focus on other things. It certainly doesn't mean PCs are "dying" nor are tablets "taking over the world" despite what a graph based on 2 years of data once showed. Things are finding their place and stabilizing.

In the 80s you would buy a car and within 10 years it'd most like be in the junkyard. Now a 10 year old car runs almost always runs fine - the technology has become boring. It's the best phase for consumers and I look forward to having a 10 year old PC running a 10 year old OS that is still good enough for everything.
posted by lubujackson at 3:09 PM on June 5, 2015 [16 favorites]


Cortana is Siri. My kid loves to spend a half hour asking Cortana to show her pictures of whatever.

I tried Spartan out for a bit and it is fast, but I have mostly been using Chrome so I can't tell you too much about it.

I have the preview on a four year old laptop. It is fast. As in faster than the Linux Mint install I removed to put it on. I had to run a nVidia driver installer in compatibility mode o get it to work, but I have been playing games on it for a few days and it is better than when the laptop had Windows 7 on it. Sure it won't shutdown right, but they'll fix that in a couple of months. If you have an old computer lying around I recommend giving it a shot. It's pretty great.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:10 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


FAT32 is almost 20 years old. It should be no surprise that Microsoft is trying to extend its filesystem patent monopoly another 20 years with ReFS.

exFAT is their patent-encumbered replacement for FAT32, and is only 10 years old. I'm pretty sure ReFS is intended to replace NTFS.

Actually - the App Store isn't a big money maker for Apple. I mean - it's a billion or a couple dollars, which would count as real money for most companies. Apple's revenue stream begins and more ore less ends with their hardware margins. Which is why they have such high hardware margins.

Hmm. You're right; it's only a few percent of their total revenue. So maybe they're trying to get where Google is with Android? (never mind that MS already makes more money from license fees from android devices than their own mobile devices). Or maybe they're just realizing that it's really really hard to sell more than one copy of Windows per piece of hardware, so they're just giving up and trying to make it easy for people to get/stay up to date.
posted by aubilenon at 3:13 PM on June 5, 2015


True, but Chrome runs the same for me on Win7,8,10,OSX,Ubuntu,etc. Most days I don't care what the O/S is.

I bet you'd care if the OS wanted $9.95/mo to let you start chrome or save a file.
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:19 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


Actually - the App Store isn't a big money maker for Apple. I mean - it's a billion or a couple dollars, which would count as real money for most companies. Apple's revenue stream begins and more ore less ends with their hardware margins. Which is why they have such high hardware margins.

Where did you get this information? That's the opposite of what I've heard. I'd love to learn more about this if it's true.
posted by shmegegge at 3:19 PM on June 5, 2015


I have the preview on a four year old laptop. It is fast. As in faster than the Linux Mint install I removed to put it on.

So Windows 10 is a significant performance upgrade? I really don't like the idea of having everything integrated with Microsoft's cloud services (like Rangi said), but if it's noticeably faster on old machines it might be interesting to try it out.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:27 PM on June 5, 2015


So, so, so glad I got a laptop with Vista that was so defective it forced me to try Ubuntu.
posted by jpe at 3:32 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


RobotVoodooPower: "FAT32 is almost 20 years old. It should be no surprise that Microsoft is trying to extend its filesystem patent monopoly another 20 years with ReFS."

There's two other file systems in there before you get to ReFS, at least.
posted by boo_radley at 3:33 PM on June 5, 2015


I didn't do rigorous benchmarking, but it feels much faster than any other computer I'm using right now.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:46 PM on June 5, 2015


[Review] Is Windows 10 better than Windows 8.1 and 7, Performance Wise?
...Anyhow, it can be seen that, if you want normal performance of games with little power usage, than Windows 10 is the winner. Many-a-times, Windows 7 and 8.1 showed a minor performance increase in the game average FPS rates, but they can be out-scored.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:47 PM on June 5, 2015


I don't like the "always login to windows live" that I inadvertently activated by installing the free Visual Studio, and I'm going to turn it off next time I boot to windows. Which may be a while as the last time I did it took almost two hours to download and install updates (the machine is about three months old). In fairness I've probably put as much time into my Linux updates.

I do wonder if I'm going to be able to upgrade to Windows 10 without having to reinstall Linux completely. If not, that may be the day I delete Windows instead of keeping it around for those rare occasions where I need it.
posted by Death and Gravity at 3:54 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Where did you get this information [about the AppStore not being Apple's big cash cow]? That's the opposite of what I've heard. I'd love to learn more about this if it's true.

Apple says their revenue breakdown. The "services" category contains the App Store for both OSX and iOS, plus some other stuff, so this only gives us an upper bound on revenue. That said, I would not be surprised if the profit margin on hosting other people's software sales is a lot better than it is for developing, manufacturing, and shipping physical hardware.
posted by aubilenon at 4:00 PM on June 5, 2015


I have Windows 8 on my home computers now, and it just seems like a complicated way to get at simple stuff (but then I am a very simpleminded user of computers).

The 8.1 start screen is actually really handy for a living room box.

If we're still using any version of Windows in 2450, we're gonna be in trouble...

I like how in Vinge's Zones universe, ramscoop starships tens of thousands of years in the future are (it is hinted) running on unix.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:12 PM on June 5, 2015 [4 favorites]


shmegegge - the iOS App store only booked about $15 billion in sales in 2014, with 70% of that going to developers and a fair bit of the remainder going to overhead (consider that Costco can sell a $100 iTunes gift card for $85 when they want to). So we see that (services sector) the whole services sector of Apple only brought in $4.9bn revenue in Q2 2015 out of $58bn total revenue producing $13.6bn profit. So, even if that $4.9bn services revenue line was pure profit, and purely app stores - it would be less than 50% of of the total profit in Q2 2015.

If you actually care about the minutia here, check out Horace Dediu at asymco.com - I'm sure he's got a far more detailed analysis kicking around, but I can't find it right now.
posted by wotsac at 4:20 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


If you install Windows 10 you agree (as part of the EULA) that you MUST install all updates (aka Windows Update)

NOPE

NOPE NOPE NOPE

FUCK. OFF.

I'm sure this is some way for them to "improve security"(IE decrease the optics of windows constantly having shitloads of malware) and be able to remotely break activation bypass tricks used by people illegally installing, but fuckkkkk offffff

Microsoft has had too many system breaking, showstopping, assfucking updates that require an uninstall in safemode or worse. Even like, in the past 6 months with server 2008/12 R2 and windows 7/8.1.

I guess i now the version i'll be "trialing" will be the pro/enterprise variant.
posted by emptythought at 4:23 PM on June 5, 2015 [7 favorites]


At least on the surface it sounds like they have adopted the Chrome OS model: frequent, incremental, automatic and free upgrades. Not sure how this makes economic sense for a software vendor like MS (as opposed to an advertising company like Google willing to do any and everything to get more eyeballs) unless they have pretty much written off the OS as a future profit center...
posted by jim in austin at 4:48 PM on June 5, 2015


I've been running a non-Genuine Windows 7 for a year, since I installed the wrong version to start with (I installed Home Premium but have a Professional key) and because I bought it with a student discount which makes it special I can't just upgrade to Professional without reinstalling from scratch.

So, the prospect of a genuine Windows 10 install is exciting.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:46 PM on June 5, 2015


I can totally see the value of an OS as a subscription service to the right user- if you're spinning up short-term boxes for various uses, sure, you'd rather just pay $30 for three months than $200 (though you'd have to calculate the point at which it would be cheaper simply to buy those licenses and reuse them, of course).

The idea of a subscription model for an OS replacing the current consumer norm of buying it once and using it as long as you want? That's taking contempt for the consumer to a new level.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:46 PM on June 5, 2015


* No, it will not be a subscription or paid service after the first year. Upgrades just won't be free.

* If you install Windows 10 you agree (as part of the EULA) that you MUST install all updates (aka Windows Update). Only Enterprise (and some business) versions can "delay" updates.


How do these two points square with each other, exactly? Upgrades aren't free, and they're mandatory? So if you won't or can't upgrade, your machine just presumably stops working?
posted by naju at 5:50 PM on June 5, 2015


naju, updates are patches and service packs and stuff. upgrades are what used to be new versions, but I guess they're going to call them something else if Windows 10 is to be the last version.
posted by aubilenon at 5:53 PM on June 5, 2015


Ah, OK. That makes sense.
posted by naju at 5:55 PM on June 5, 2015


"Oh, this isn't a new version, it's an upgrade! Totes diff!"
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:55 PM on June 5, 2015


This does feel like part of the grand Microsoft tradition of pointlessly renaming things.
posted by Artw at 6:05 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


I am contentedly (if not excitedly) using Windows 7 and Outlook/Office 2007. LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE, Microsoft. Everything works FINE and I can focus on doing my WORK. That endless Windows 10 nag in the taskbar is a horrible omen.
posted by twsf at 6:11 PM on June 5, 2015 [5 favorites]


Basically I want the Win 7 UI with UNIX underneath. I guess that's what MInt is kind of sort of trying to be in it's Linuxy way.
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


There are dark mutterings from the fringes. An evil long thought dead stirs... what... what if an OS were built from the bones up on another language? One... that has no allegiance to C?

The Smalltalkers already have two virtual environments where your "OS" is merely a rump-state propping up the glory of the Class Browser. They mutter among themselves, "What if we didn't need to boot into anything other than Pharos?"

And then, there is LISP. They had entire supercomputing environments, but because they couldn't deliver on their AI promises, these all died.

LISP didn't die.

In recent years, it's grown stronger as more and more people are fed up with bullshit like editline/readline.h breaking between revs because of reasons, and tired of line-noise-as-syntax. ("Worthless Sigils" is the LISPer term. It causes some... heat... with Clojure fans.)

Unauthorized versions of Symbolics Genera virtual machines are appearing on Macs and Linux workstations. Stuff like Apple's Swift are pissing them off, because goddamn, that's a nasty mish-mash.

What if we made something prettier than Pharos that can boot right on bare metal or a hypervisor? Where we could reprogram anything on it, and were encouraged to do so, even licensed commercial software?

Just mutterings at the moment. They'll get stronger as Windows moves to a subscription model and people tire of endless internecine wars in Linux/BSD land.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:43 PM on June 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


How do these two points square with each other, exactly? Upgrades aren't free, and they're mandatory? So if you won't or can't upgrade, your machine just presumably stops working?

Sort of like how they're still putting out updates for windows 8, even though 8.1 is out... as if it's a separate OS. Why didn't they just force/auto upgrade everyone to 8.1 like a normal service pack? i have no idea. But you have to manually do it in the store.

I'm assuming they plan on releasing a 10.1 at some point, but 10 will keep getting updates. So 10 is the last "version", but there will be defined updated "versions" of 10. Weasel words lulzy shit right there.
posted by emptythought at 6:45 PM on June 5, 2015


I'm running Win 7 ultimate, I updated last night and I see no option to upgrade. Am I doing something wrong?
posted by echocollate at 6:47 PM on June 5, 2015


Basically I want the Win 7 UI with UNIX underneath.

...will you be my Jobs?
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:52 PM on June 5, 2015


I stopped buying creative suite when they went to a subscription model. I'm not going to pay every year - I don't know if I'll have that much money in the future, and it's not like I'm getting extra worth every year.

I predict in a couple of years there will be some major new players in software who offer a similar product that you can purchase outright.
posted by b33j at 6:57 PM on June 5, 2015


the web-browser is the real O/S

No. No it's not, and I wish people would quit repeating this.

I don't run Maschine or Sound Forge or Steam in a browser (though Steam has a browser). I don't write mixed C++/FORTRAN/C# applications for a web browser. My web browser did not format or clone the SSD I upgraded to this week. My web browser does not manage device drivers. When I want to run a virtual machine I don't simply open another browser tab. Servers do not typically run web browsers ever yet they're able to actually do things.
posted by Foosnark at 7:29 PM on June 5, 2015 [10 favorites]


I don't write mixed C++/FORTRAN/C# applications for a web browser.

You do if it's ChromeOS. Preferably, you'd write it in Javascript and/or Dart, as it's an intensely powerful language, but The Goog has seen fit to provide you with some legacy language APIs. On the server side? Jnode is a thing that exists in this world.

We live in a universe of Javascript Machines - every modern web browser will allow you to write, debug, and run advanced and sophisticated programs from within the web browser. Some applications will need to hit the metal - but fewer and fewer of them as CPU horsepower increases.

I regularly tinker with a javascript-based APL dev environment - it will take, in the browser:

butts ← , "LoL" "Butts!"
10 10 ⍴ butts


And do what I intended it to.

This may be the future. New and old languages are only overlays on top of Javascript, designed to run in a feature-complete UI sandbox - your browser.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


You can have the Windows 7 UI with UNIX underneath, to some degree - Cygwin.
posted by chmmr at 9:34 PM on June 5, 2015


A lot of comments but I haven't seen one describing any new feature of value or any reason to upgrade from 7 (other than possibly better high-end game graphics, which I don't need - playing through Might & Magic 10 right now) ...

So, what is the selling point for 10, other than the free price tag? I see no reason to upgrade if all the programs I need work on 7. I tend to be skeptical of "free" offerings.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:35 PM on June 5, 2015


When your biggest selling point is "brings back the Start Menu" ... you're in some trouble.

Win7 still has the Start Menu (which having gotten used to my chromebook so much, I never use anymore.)

There are definitely still GUI and other improvements that could be made to Windows. I don't see them here.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:38 PM on June 5, 2015


The idea of a subscription model for an OS replacing the current consumer norm of buying it once and using it as long as you want? That's taking contempt for the consumer to a new level.

Microsoft: We're running out of feet to shoot!

Sir, you can just shoot again the one that you shot last year.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:41 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Basically I want the Win 7 UI with UNIX underneath.

This is a thing that is happening.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:45 PM on June 5, 2015


Eh, it's still kind of an approximation and you run into a bunch of stuff that becomes a pain in the ass.
posted by Artw at 10:10 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Windows 10 is pretty reasonable. The biggest improvement is actually the virtual desktops, you know, those things that linux and osx have had for years.
posted by Pyry at 10:40 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


What is known about compatibility with older software? I have Office 2010, Photoshop CS5. Will they still run if I switch to Win10?
posted by Termite at 10:51 PM on June 5, 2015


Should. Windows, for all it's various flaws, has always had really great backwards compatibility. Sometimes to a fault.

Anyway, I ran the Win10 (windows 0xA ?) preview for a while, and all my older stuff worked fine.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:54 PM on June 5, 2015


So, what is the selling point for 10, other than the free price tag?

I don't know if it's a selling point, but apparently 10 uses fewer processes and slightly less power (2-5%) than 7 or 8.1. Not a big deal on a desktop, but it could be good for a laptop.
posted by Kevin Street at 11:01 PM on June 5, 2015


There is no plan to go subscription. When you buy a new computer the manufacturer will already have paid for Windows, and that version will be upgraded for the life of the computer. They are offering everyone else a free upgrade now so they don't get blamed for millions of insecure, un-upgraded computers like they currently are for XP, even though XP was replaced 8 or so years ago.

This is also the reason the consumer versions can't have updates turned off. Because idiots turn their updates off and end up as part of a botnet.
posted by markr at 11:01 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


New and old languages are only overlays on top of Javascript

That right there is a description of my own personal hell.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:19 PM on June 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


Hey don't worry about performance, we'll just implement the javascript interpreter in hardware.
posted by Pyry at 11:25 PM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hey don't worry about performance, we'll just implement the javascript interpreter in hardware.

Don't laugh. It's been threatened..
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:36 PM on June 5, 2015


I mentioned to a sysadmin at work last week that in a few years we won't even be installing php on servers as the devs will want 100% JavaScript. The look on his face was priceless.
posted by boubelium at 11:50 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't know if it's a selling point, but apparently 10 uses fewer processes and slightly less power (2-5%) than 7 or 8.1. Not a big deal on a desktop, but it could be good for a laptop.

I could use a fresh Win7 install anyway, so I'm going to see if Win10 actually does run better (my laptop is from 2008) and if it sucks, well, I've still got my Win7 install media.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:06 AM on June 6, 2015


Windows 10 is a frustrating launch for me, as it seems like my killer feature -- DX12 in games, with the associated performance improvements and extra features -- is going to take a long while to actually become relevant. Will there even be any titles that benefit from it before the free upgrade year is done?
posted by these are science wands at 12:43 AM on June 6, 2015


You might as well just slam dunk all your DX games straight into the trash (er, recycle bin), because the Khronos Group is coming out with the Vulkan API.
posted by Pyry at 1:56 AM on June 6, 2015


Windows 10 will continue to provide mandatory, free updates - patches to fix security problems and the like. But they'll charge money for upgrades - ie: new features or anything that makes the OS run better.

I don't believe that is the case at all. Microsoft is being deliberately coy about this because they don't want to entirely box themselves in, but my understanding of how and why this is happening is this:

90+% of users currently only pay for Windows when they buy a new computer. Very few people actually buy an upgrade version of windows in the retail chain. Microsoft basically just faced up to reality and said, "Why are we charging retail upgrades at all? It's barely even worth it."

So the plan going forward is that you only pay for Windows once through the built-in forced purchase when you get a new computing device. And as long as you own that device, Microsoft will push updates to it for it to remain feature current. Without additional cost to the end user. Everyone will be running the same exact feature version, which will greatly reduce their service maintenance costs over the patchwork system they have now. And reducing costs how this will be profitable for them. There's nothing particularly nefarious or sneaky about it. They will still get their OEM "vig" with new PC sales, but have far fewer issues to deal with in terms of people with custom installs.

On the other hand, if you're a hobbyist and you want to buy a boxed version of Windows to install on a new cpu, you'll have to pay for that in the store. But once it's installed on that cpu, then it will also receive pushed updates/upgrades for the life of the system.

That's for the standard "Home" version. As blue_beetle points out, there will be other options available via "branches" for more advanced or professional users. See this detailed page.

They're giving everyone a "free" upgrade now because they want to everyone on to this new constistent service model as soon as possible. "Free...only for a year!" is a kind of offer/threat, but my BOLD!PREDICTION is that the upgrade will still be free after a year. The whole point of this is that it's cheaper to get you to switch then to let you hang on to your old version.
posted by xigxag at 4:56 AM on June 6, 2015 [8 favorites]


What if we made something prettier than Pharos that can boot right on bare metal or a hypervisor? Where we could reprogram anything on it, and were encouraged to do so, even licensed commercial software?

You want to spend all your time writing drivers? Because that's how you spend all your time writing drivers.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:00 AM on June 6, 2015 [6 favorites]


I still like it how when the news reports a horribly horrible hacking attempt (the likes of which will never be seen with Windows 10), it still shows a DOS listing scrolling in the background.
posted by knoxg at 5:30 AM on June 6, 2015


I still like it how when the news reports a horribly horrible hacking attempt (the likes of which will never be seen with Windows 10), it still shows a DOS listing scrolling in the background.

GOD, who even hacks without VR gear anymore? n00bs.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:32 AM on June 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


...or get rid of that notification.

Ha, yes, it's gone now. Thanks! That white square thing was catching my eye several times a day and generally just annoying me way more than is rational for such a small thing. I'm glad it's gone.

My laptop is pretty old and I'll buy a new one soon. So I'll wait and get Windows 10 on the new machine, no need to update this one in the meantime. But then I was still on Windows 95 for several years longer than anyone I know and managed to skip XP altogether (I think we had NT for quite a while or something). It looks like this whole new thing from Microsoft is aimed at overuling people like me.
posted by shelleycat at 5:34 AM on June 6, 2015


It's going to be difficult to delete CONFIG.SYS with all these multicoloured rectangles in the way.
posted by knoxg at 5:35 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've been on Windows 7 for years, and by now I've got a mile-long list of updates that failed to install. I want to be up-to-date, but for some reason some driver incompatibility or something is preventing the updates from taking.

At work there's an older Win7 box that I can barely start up now because it spends 20-25 minutes hanging at startup, first attempting to apply updates, then failing, then reverting the updates.

Mandatory OS updates eventually seem to mean mandatory hardware upgrades.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 5:42 AM on June 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm so glad I can now watch this stuff with a sense of mild interest now that Windows is essentially irrelevant to my life. This isn't intended as one of those smug "Would I have to use Windows to care about this?" comments, but I'm not going to lie to myself. I didn't actively abandon Windows - I started working somewhere where the entire non-desktop infrastructure is Linux-based and had to climb a fairly steep learning curve to be able to effectively wrangle our test environment I effectively got up-skilled out of the Windows world, because suddenly things that were easily accomplished by a previously incomprehensible chain of commands in a terminal window were annoying or difficult in Windows. (I actually still have Windows on my desktop at work, but it's effectively just a wrapper around the instance of VirtualBox I use, and will be replaced as soon as I end up in that mythical land of enough free time).

I don't think Linux on the desktop is quite friendly enough for non-technical users yet although it's leaps and bounds ahead of where it was when I first failed to get Red Hat to install when the century was all shiny and new. But there's an accelerating trend of people like me moving away from Windows. And that adds up. It means that increasing numbers of people who are involved in making software don't really care about Windows at all. Windows makes many of the things I use a computer for (which include lots of things typical users would find incredibly dull and pointless) painful to achieve, sometimes in actively hostile ways. Clearly I'm not their target customer, but the net effect is that the majority of people who want do do interesting things with software think of Windows as an irrelevance or, at best, an annoying business requirement.

The success of Windows was, in many ways, founded on the efforts of a legion of amateur developers, building quirky software that did stuff nobody who needed to care about a balance sheet would have considered for a second. Being able to find an obscure bit of software that mostly did the obscure thing you wanted was a huge benefit of using Windows back in the late 90's. Someone somewhere would have spent a couple of weekends putting it together for their own needs and, well, once you've written the thing you might as well shove it on a freeware site, or stick a shareware notice on it and get a few free beers out of it. Almost nobody is doing that for Windows these days. Which makes the software look a lot less messy, probably cuts down on security issues, but takes away a lot of the value that Microsoft used to get for free. All of this stuff is happening on mobile (iOS and Android, mostly), on the web and on Linux. If all Windows has to offer is Office and a web browser, then no amount of OS features and enhancements is going to save it.
posted by xchmp at 5:54 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Good stuff in Windows 8/10 that isn't in Windows 7:
  • Touch support really works well on tablets/slates.
  • Built-in antivirus, firewall, plus built-in PDF reader, plus Flash support in Internet Explorer. Which all means your non-technical relations don't have to install any of (1) anti-virus (2) Adobe Reader (3) Adobe Flash, and keep them updated. So much better security.
  • OneDrive, so you have a cloud back-up set up automagically (see non-technical relations, above)
  • Much better accessibility tools - Windows Narrator, Magnifier - so elderly relations with sight loss can still use their machines.
  • An App Store. No, really: there's a few good ones in there now, and if Windows 10 gets going with Android/iOS Apps, there'll be a way to get software that isn't so... dodgy and security-risky as downloading it from random sites, and which automatically updates.
  • Lots of little improvements to things like Windows Explorer which make everything a little easier.
posted by alasdair at 6:45 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Apple says their revenue breakdown. The "services" category contains the App Store for both OSX and iOS, plus some other stuff, so this only gives us an upper bound on revenue. That said, I would not be surprised if the profit margin on hosting other people's software sales is a lot better than it is for developing, manufacturing, and shipping physical hardware.

It's an aside, but I think Apple is unusual because it can make mass-market hardware (or at least mass-market in wealthier countries) that sells at a great margin, and also vertically controls a lot of retail distribution in those countries. Valve is probably a good example of a more pure-play digital distribution company, whose adventures in hardware are lossmaking or close to margin-neutral, and are bankrolled primarily by its Steam digital distribution business. Valve doesn't reveal its revenues, but its sales are pretty uncontroversially over a billion dollars, mostly of software (primarily games) not developed by the company, from which Valve takes a cut. So, someone else covers all the development costs, and most of the marketing costs, and Valve pays for hosting, support, the payments processing infrastructure etc - largely composable expenses. That's a high-margin business.

Apple gets it both ways - high margins on the hardware, and a user base more likely to pay for apps and media on the app store (on which it takes a 30% cut). However, it sells so much hardware that its hardware revenues still dwarf its services revenues.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:53 AM on June 6, 2015


This may be the future. New and old languages are only overlays on top of Javascript, designed to run in a feature-complete UI sandbox - your browser.

What's the real benefit of doing everything in Javascript in a browser for the programmer? It looks to me (not being really familiar with Javascript) that it's that it's easy to learn, and you get to work in a reasonably consistent environment with a realistic chance of write-once-play-anywhere. If it had to do everything every other language does, and provide access to all the other stuff that doesn't fit well in a browser, it would get all the cruft and assorted problems as well.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:09 AM on June 6, 2015


So, how will this handle non-genuine windows 7 with non-genuine office, will it bust office?
posted by Iax at 7:36 AM on June 6, 2015


What's the real benefit of doing everything in Javascript in a browser for the programmer?

Javascript is insanely fast these days, thanks to competition between the various implementations. I've ported Python code I've written to Javascript a few times and, for computationally intensive tasks, the Javascript tends to run about 2x to 3x faster than the equivalent Python. I'd also rather spend five minutes putting together a workable UI in javascript than a day figuring out any of the GUI toolkits that (mostly) work with Python.

The disadvantage is that thanks to early design decisions It has some really horrible warts. For example,if x is "10" then the result of adding 1 to x is "101", but the result of subtracting 1 from x is 9. And division by zero results in infinity (which is wrong on just about every level). But in practice, these are easily avoided, at least after you've been tripped up by them the first hundred times. Another lightning fast, but better designed language that was ubiquitous in the browser would be lovely. But Javascript is what we actually have (and to be fair, there's plenty of effort being spent improving it).
posted by xchmp at 9:05 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


The "Upgrade to Windows 10 for Free" popup crashed my computer.

I rebooted and immediately installed Ubuntu, from which I am posting now. It feels good to be back in the fold after three years of Windows 7.
posted by 256 at 9:39 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


And division by zero results in infinity (which is wrong on just about every level).

Ok, I like to pick on Javascript as a poorly thought out language as much as anyone, but this isn't a javascript thing but rather a floating point thing. A few languages choose to throw errors on floating point division by zero, but +Inf, -Inf, NaN, and -0 aren't crazy values that javascript invented, but part of the floating point standard, and most languages will silently return +Inf for 1.0/0.0, including "serious" languages like C and C++.
posted by Pyry at 11:09 AM on June 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


Ok, I like to pick on Javascript as a poorly thought out language as much as anyone, but this isn't a javascript thing but rather a floating point thing

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I spend most of my time in languages that protect me from this kind of thing. I still think it's a poor design choice, just a slightly different one. Floating point arithmetic has enough counter-intuitive edge cases that it adds a level of complexity to a language mostly used for making websites look prettier. I'm sure that there are useful applications for division by zero returning infinity, but I can't think of any times this would have been useful to me. Mostly if some code I've written ends up dividing by zero, it means I've screwed up and being informed of this immediately makes tracking down where I've gone wrong a lot easier than eventually seeing "Inf" show up somewhere a real number should be.

But yes, it's probably a bit unfair to single out Javascript for this.
posted by xchmp at 3:37 PM on June 6, 2015


If all Windows has to offer is Office and a web browser

Hardly; Windows is the only option if you're a gamer (most games aren't available on Mac or Linux). PC games collectively sell millions of copies every year. It may be a bit more of a niche market than "average home user who just wants web browsing and email", but it's also not going away.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:55 PM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm not at all worried about a subscription model. Even if they try there will be so much backlash that they'll back off it so fast it will make your head spin.

I suspect the same will be true of forced updates.

The worst case scenario for me is that I'll get a legit copy and then just install and use a hacked one. I know it's still technically illegal but I don't think it should be so I'm okay with it.
posted by VTX at 5:15 AM on June 7, 2015


You might as well just slam dunk all your DX games straight into the trash (er, recycle bin), because the Khronos Group is coming out with the Vulkan API.

This sounds a LOT like AMD's Mantle which AMD created at the request of their developers and then made it open source. They then worked with MS to get a lot of Mantle's features built into DX12 since AMD is not in the business of selling APIs (at least I think I remember reading this somewhere).

We can be pretty certain that MS's consoles will keep running DirectX which means all the PC ports will use DirectX which will pretty much mean all the games use DirectX and all the graphics cards will be designed with DirectX in mind.

Pretty much ever non-DirectX API has died so betting against DirectX seems like a bad idea.
posted by VTX at 6:40 AM on June 7, 2015


I'm still waiting for my Vista Ultimate upgrades.
Oh.
That gave me a UNIX layer, but so utterly useless that I went Cygwin. When that was too painful and inconsistent, I went OSX.

posted by davemee at 12:58 AM on June 8, 2015


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