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June 12, 2015 10:00 AM Subscribe
How Isis crippled al-Qaida - the rift within the jihadi movement.
More: Al-Qaida 'cut off and ripped apart by Isis'
posted by zarq at 10:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 10:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
To US Allies, Al Qaeda Affiliate in Syria Becomes the Lesser Evil
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2015
It just reads like a bunch of whinging -- "we thought all this great stuff up, we did all this, but then they come and co-opt it, and, well LOOK AT THEM.. We get no respect, kids these days, blah blah blah"
geeze it sounds shitty to be saying that -- like they're the looooosers in the game of jihad
posted by k5.user at 10:24 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
geeze it sounds shitty to be saying that -- like they're the looooosers in the game of jihad
posted by k5.user at 10:24 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Read this yesterday, highly recommended. There are more factions at war in Syria than in Westeros.
posted by Acey at 10:25 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Acey at 10:25 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Glenn Greenwald @ggreenwald 3h3 hours ago
War on Terror comes full circle: talk of "wooing" Al Qaeda as a key ally is now made explicit http://www.wsj.com/articles/to-u-s-allies-al-qaeda-affiliate-in-syria-becomes-the-lesser-evil-1434022017 … (via @DavidMizner)
posted by Trochanter at 10:31 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
War on Terror comes full circle: talk of "wooing" Al Qaeda as a key ally is now made explicit http://www.wsj.com/articles/to-u-s-allies-al-qaeda-affiliate-in-syria-becomes-the-lesser-evil-1434022017 … (via @DavidMizner)
posted by Trochanter at 10:31 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Once again we armed our enemies for this war. We never learn.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:45 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 10:45 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ugh. I think I diarrheaed in my mouth a little.
posted by rhizome at 10:46 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 10:46 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't wait to find out to find out what radical splinter group gains traction and takes down ISIS in 2025.
posted by Bromius at 11:02 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Bromius at 11:02 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
"Oh no, the ideology that I helped promulgate, in some part because it gave me political power, is now being used by someone else for basically the same purpose. Good heavens, I never expected that and it really isn't very nice."
What a bunch of twisted bastards.
posted by johnnydummkopf at 11:06 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
What a bunch of twisted bastards.
posted by johnnydummkopf at 11:06 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Want to understand the jihadis? Read their poetry
This is absolutely fascinating, thanks!
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 AM on June 12, 2015
This is absolutely fascinating, thanks!
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 AM on June 12, 2015
Ctrl-f "Maq" Yep, there he is, first paragraph :)
A couple good sources below... (Looks like jihadica is down now, so I just pulled up the first 2015 entry at archive).
There was this dutch dude who did translations of primary Jihadist documents but I can't remember what website it was. But yes - there are some really good analysts out there you can follow that will shed light on some of these factional/ideological disputes.
http://jihadology.net/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150108100520/http://www.jihadica.com/
posted by symbioid at 11:13 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
A couple good sources below... (Looks like jihadica is down now, so I just pulled up the first 2015 entry at archive).
There was this dutch dude who did translations of primary Jihadist documents but I can't remember what website it was. But yes - there are some really good analysts out there you can follow that will shed light on some of these factional/ideological disputes.
http://jihadology.net/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150108100520/http://www.jihadica.com/
posted by symbioid at 11:13 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
As al-Qaeda Grows in Syria, So Do US Calls to Court Them as Allies
posted by bukvich at 11:18 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by bukvich at 11:18 AM on June 12, 2015
I will quote yet again from the Seventy Maxims Of Maximally Effective Mercenaries:
29. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No lessposted by the man of twists and turns at 11:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, cf. USA/USSR 1941-45. (Darn you, tmotat!)
posted by haiku warrior at 11:27 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by haiku warrior at 11:27 AM on June 12, 2015
But guys, we trained these Velociraptors to be loyal
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:39 AM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:39 AM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
hal_c_on: BUT, when we get these mofos who are legitimizing theft, rape, murder, and slavery in the name of Islam, there is no call for action against them.
What are you talking about? Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced the Islamic State.
The most explicit condemnation came from Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims.
More than 120 Muslim leaders and scholars have co-signed an open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, arguing the Islamic State caliphate's establishment and practices are not legitimate in Islam. The letter includes a technical point-by-point criticism of ISIS' actions and ideology based on the Quran and classical religious texts.
posted by zarq at 12:01 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
What are you talking about? Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced the Islamic State.
The most explicit condemnation came from Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims.
More than 120 Muslim leaders and scholars have co-signed an open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, arguing the Islamic State caliphate's establishment and practices are not legitimate in Islam. The letter includes a technical point-by-point criticism of ISIS' actions and ideology based on the Quran and classical religious texts.
posted by zarq at 12:01 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
Was it the tagline of Alien vs. Predator that said, "No matter who wins, we lose"? Yeah.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2015
As al-Qaeda Grows in Syria, So Do US Calls to Court Them as Allies
The WSJ article that links to paints the Turks and Saudis as maybe interested in doing that and the US resistant to it.
posted by Artw at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015
The WSJ article that links to paints the Turks and Saudis as maybe interested in doing that and the US resistant to it.
posted by Artw at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015
If perpetual war is your raison d'etre then you become very good at planting and nurturing it.
"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to." - Simone Weil
posted by nikoniko at 12:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to." - Simone Weil
posted by nikoniko at 12:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're interested enough to have read this far, allow me to recommend going straight on to Patrick Cockburn's recent book The Rise of Islamic State. Taught me more about the recent politics of the region in barely more than 100 pages than anything else I've read in some years.
posted by RogerB at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by RogerB at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The invasion of Iraq and disbanding of the Iraqi army is the gift that keeps on giving.
posted by persona au gratin at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's the reason why Saddam Hussein was executed at Christmastime.
posted by rhizome at 1:02 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by rhizome at 1:02 PM on June 12, 2015
BUT, when we get these mofos who are legitimizing theft, rape, murder, and slavery in the name of Islam, there is no call for action against them.
I don't understand this at all. Muslims have taken the lead in the fight against terrorism. Muslims have been the primary targets of terrorist attacks for the past few decades. It's been Muslim soldiers on the front lines from Algeria to Yemen to Syria.
posted by kanewai at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't understand this at all. Muslims have taken the lead in the fight against terrorism. Muslims have been the primary targets of terrorist attacks for the past few decades. It's been Muslim soldiers on the front lines from Algeria to Yemen to Syria.
posted by kanewai at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
"The invasion of Iraq and disbanding of the Iraqi army is the gift that keeps on giving."
Which suggests the best strategy for beating ISIS: Side with them against Al Qaida — send them Rumsfeld, Bremer, and Cheney and the war will be over in six months. They'll be greeted as liberators!
posted by klangklangston at 3:49 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which suggests the best strategy for beating ISIS: Side with them against Al Qaida — send them Rumsfeld, Bremer, and Cheney and the war will be over in six months. They'll be greeted as liberators!
posted by klangklangston at 3:49 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I smell money, I smell opportunity.
Article is a bit roomy with the past relations between AQ and various pre-ISIS factions and what the formed "Caliphate" has morphed into. This article covers a lot of ancillary details.
THE MASTER PLAN. (2006)
I found this qoute interesting:
"Oh, Father! Where is the escape and when will we have a home? Oh, Father! I see spheres of danger everywhere I look....tell me, father, something useful about what I see."
-Hamzah bin Laden. E-mail to father. June, 2002.
"...the increasingly vehement criticism from Maqdisi and Abu Qatada to embark on a social media campaign..."
This qoute in the Guardian article is a key aspect of the idealogical and strategic game ISIS brings 2013-2015.
"Even the attacks of 9/11, Maqdisi said, were part of a misguided strategy. “The actions in New York and Washington, no matter how great they appeared to be – the bottom line is they were spiteful..."
Ibid.
Again, so 2005.
posted by clavdivs at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Article is a bit roomy with the past relations between AQ and various pre-ISIS factions and what the formed "Caliphate" has morphed into. This article covers a lot of ancillary details.
THE MASTER PLAN. (2006)
I found this qoute interesting:
"Oh, Father! Where is the escape and when will we have a home? Oh, Father! I see spheres of danger everywhere I look....tell me, father, something useful about what I see."
-Hamzah bin Laden. E-mail to father. June, 2002.
"...the increasingly vehement criticism from Maqdisi and Abu Qatada to embark on a social media campaign..."
This qoute in the Guardian article is a key aspect of the idealogical and strategic game ISIS brings 2013-2015.
"Even the attacks of 9/11, Maqdisi said, were part of a misguided strategy. “The actions in New York and Washington, no matter how great they appeared to be – the bottom line is they were spiteful..."
Ibid.
Again, so 2005.
posted by clavdivs at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Want to understand the jihadis? Read their poetry
Middle East Week: Studying Jihadi Culture
Why Terrorists Weep: The Socio-Cultural Practices of Jihadi Militants (PDF)
I'm still reading the article, but the premis that al-Qaeda has been crippled by ISIS seems wrong to me. It may be somewhat the other way around. Al-Qaeda is succeeding in Syria and Yemen with support from Turkey and Saudi Arabia, and is learning how to stay behind the scenes and work with legitimate local government. This is interesting: Al Qaeda Tries a New Tactic to Keep Power: Sharing It. Al-Jazeera is even doing their absolute best to present them as humane and moderate. Whereas, ISIS will never be able to get open support because they are so outwardly insane and evil.
I think it is also worth noting that Maqdisi is essentially run by Jordanian intelligence, who let him out of jail as long as he cooperates with them. Al-Joulani said in the Al-Jazeera interview that he reports to Zawahiri. One wonders if Zawahiri is sending his orders from an ISI jailhouse.
I don't understand this at all. Muslims have taken the lead in the fight against terrorism. Muslims have been the primary targets of terrorist attacks for the past few decades. It's been Muslim soldiers on the front lines from Algeria to Yemen to Syria.
Yes, but ISIS and Al-Qaeda have both been very smart in supporting the struggles of local populations fighting against despotic regimes, corruption and oppression who get very little support from the west. The Syrian Arab Spring and South Yemen resistance are great examples of this. In some places locals may see Al-Qaeda/ISIS as the lesser of two evils and the enemy of their enemy.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:06 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Middle East Week: Studying Jihadi Culture
Why Terrorists Weep: The Socio-Cultural Practices of Jihadi Militants (PDF)
I'm still reading the article, but the premis that al-Qaeda has been crippled by ISIS seems wrong to me. It may be somewhat the other way around. Al-Qaeda is succeeding in Syria and Yemen with support from Turkey and Saudi Arabia, and is learning how to stay behind the scenes and work with legitimate local government. This is interesting: Al Qaeda Tries a New Tactic to Keep Power: Sharing It. Al-Jazeera is even doing their absolute best to present them as humane and moderate. Whereas, ISIS will never be able to get open support because they are so outwardly insane and evil.
I think it is also worth noting that Maqdisi is essentially run by Jordanian intelligence, who let him out of jail as long as he cooperates with them. Al-Joulani said in the Al-Jazeera interview that he reports to Zawahiri. One wonders if Zawahiri is sending his orders from an ISI jailhouse.
I don't understand this at all. Muslims have taken the lead in the fight against terrorism. Muslims have been the primary targets of terrorist attacks for the past few decades. It's been Muslim soldiers on the front lines from Algeria to Yemen to Syria.
Yes, but ISIS and Al-Qaeda have both been very smart in supporting the struggles of local populations fighting against despotic regimes, corruption and oppression who get very little support from the west. The Syrian Arab Spring and South Yemen resistance are great examples of this. In some places locals may see Al-Qaeda/ISIS as the lesser of two evils and the enemy of their enemy.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:06 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
> What are you talking about? Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced the Islamic State.
hal_c_on: BUT, when we get these mofos who are legitimizing theft, rape, murder, and slavery in the name of Islam, there is no call for action against them.
I think people may be talking at cross purposes here. I believe hal_c_on as a Muslim relating his lived experience in (I assume) a Western country is lamenting the fact that his fellow Muslims are more interested in denouncing those who would depict Muhammed than the murderers in the ME. Here in the UK we have quite an ingrained problem with disaffected Muslim youth travelling (in the hundreds) to Syria with the intention of helping the rebels against Assad (unfortunately things do not usually turn out well for them)
On the other hand though due to the simple fact that they are the majority people living there Muslims are of course leading the fightback against the many takfiri groups who are busy ethnically cleansing Syria and Iraq. As well as this you have Muslim leaders making all the right noises.
There are unfortunate parallels with Rwanda but this time the combatants have heavy weapons. Whereas prompt action in the previous case may have averted a genocide I think any direct* (probably even indirect) intervention by the West in these conflicts would make things a hell of a lot worse.
History, is littered with examples of civil wars that are propped up for far longer than their natural course due to foreign intervention. I can't find the reference (to a very good book) I'm looking for which starts with the French Revolution and goes forward but this rather long-winded pdf analysis will have to do External Interventions and the Duration of Civil Wars.
* Of course we already are directly involved with air power and "advisers" on the ground in Iraq.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 12:45 AM on June 13, 2015
hal_c_on: BUT, when we get these mofos who are legitimizing theft, rape, murder, and slavery in the name of Islam, there is no call for action against them.
I think people may be talking at cross purposes here. I believe hal_c_on as a Muslim relating his lived experience in (I assume) a Western country is lamenting the fact that his fellow Muslims are more interested in denouncing those who would depict Muhammed than the murderers in the ME. Here in the UK we have quite an ingrained problem with disaffected Muslim youth travelling (in the hundreds) to Syria with the intention of helping the rebels against Assad (unfortunately things do not usually turn out well for them)
On the other hand though due to the simple fact that they are the majority people living there Muslims are of course leading the fightback against the many takfiri groups who are busy ethnically cleansing Syria and Iraq. As well as this you have Muslim leaders making all the right noises.
There are unfortunate parallels with Rwanda but this time the combatants have heavy weapons. Whereas prompt action in the previous case may have averted a genocide I think any direct* (probably even indirect) intervention by the West in these conflicts would make things a hell of a lot worse.
History, is littered with examples of civil wars that are propped up for far longer than their natural course due to foreign intervention. I can't find the reference (to a very good book) I'm looking for which starts with the French Revolution and goes forward but this rather long-winded pdf analysis will have to do External Interventions and the Duration of Civil Wars.
* Of course we already are directly involved with air power and "advisers" on the ground in Iraq.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 12:45 AM on June 13, 2015
@Terror_Monitor: "#Iraq : #ISIS Release New Photos Of Their Ice Cream Factory In #Mosul"
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:45 AM on June 13, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:45 AM on June 13, 2015
Ah, found it: Crane Brinton's The Anatomy of Revolution.
I became aware of this after reading this insightful blog post from a reporter about how the Arab spring seemed to go so terribly wrong in many cases:
posted by Beware of the leopard at 1:07 AM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I became aware of this after reading this insightful blog post from a reporter about how the Arab spring seemed to go so terribly wrong in many cases:
One by one the dictatorships fell: Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya. Our paradigm was set in 1989; we wanted Tahrir Square to be our second Berlin Wall. Through the prism of our previous experience we saw rainbows.Berlin 1989 – the miracle that blinded us to the truth about revolution.
It was hard not to get caught up in the moment – all those young people throwing off their shackles, demonstrating for the right to be like us. It looked and felt like 1989.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 1:07 AM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Read the Fox News via Daily Mail article first:
ISIS sells priceless ancient artifacts on FACEBOOK: Gold statues, scrolls written in Aramaic and coins up to 10,000 years old being peddled online by terror group
OK: I don't recognise the coin, but it looks like some modern commemorative medal. They didn't even have coins 10,000 years ago. I don't know anything about the statue. There are two Hebrew texts; ons is a Book of Esther as used by Jews on Purim, and is modern; the other looks like Hebrew-based gibberish written with a gold Sharpie. Anyone buying these "priceless ancient artifacts" is getting exactly what they deserve.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:08 AM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
ISIS sells priceless ancient artifacts on FACEBOOK: Gold statues, scrolls written in Aramaic and coins up to 10,000 years old being peddled online by terror group
OK: I don't recognise the coin, but it looks like some modern commemorative medal. They didn't even have coins 10,000 years ago. I don't know anything about the statue. There are two Hebrew texts; ons is a Book of Esther as used by Jews on Purim, and is modern; the other looks like Hebrew-based gibberish written with a gold Sharpie. Anyone buying these "priceless ancient artifacts" is getting exactly what they deserve.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:08 AM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Attitude Adjustment: Are the US and Iran-Backed Militias Getting Friendlier?
posted by adamvasco at 5:31 AM on June 13, 2015
posted by adamvasco at 5:31 AM on June 13, 2015
I saw that link Joe and wondered if it were artifacts found at a recent site purportedly to be 10,000 yrs. old. But no coinage then and the site is not on ISIS held territory.
posted by clavdivs at 11:54 AM on June 13, 2015
posted by clavdivs at 11:54 AM on June 13, 2015
I would imagine that all of the 10,000 year old stuff went straight into private hands after the first looting in 2003.
posted by rhizome at 11:56 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:56 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I would imagine that all of the 10,000 year old stuff went straight into private hands after the first looting in 2003."
Really, Iraq invaded Syria in 2003?
Huh.
posted by clavdivs at 6:01 PM on June 19, 2015
Really, Iraq invaded Syria in 2003?
Huh.
posted by clavdivs at 6:01 PM on June 19, 2015
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posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:04 AM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]