Kim Konquers NPR. NPR Unhappy.
June 21, 2015 5:02 PM   Subscribe

NPR Ombudsman Elizabeth Jensen says her job brings her "one reliable source of joy: the Monday morning email—there's at least one each week—from a listener outraged by whatever bad taste joke Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me! has told on its latest episode." But last week's Monday morning email came in droves, because WWDTM's bad taste joke for the weekend of June 13th was having Kim Kardashian West on the show.

Not just the typical jokes about Kim, mind you. The actual person herself played "Not My Job" and answered three questions about Kim Jong-Un (after telling guest host Mike Pesca that his series of joke directional names for her next baby was "stupid"). Her appearance was to promote her new book Selfish -- 448 pages of photos of herself -- and as you can guess, listeners found it Not Particularly Risible.
posted by Etrigan (318 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
Chill harder, NPR listeners.
posted by brennen at 5:07 PM on June 21, 2015 [49 favorites]


Way to play into the snobby NPR listener stereotype, NPR listeners!
posted by schroedinger at 5:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [44 favorites]


I admit, I turned off WWDTM when they announced Kardishian was the Not My Job guest for three reasons:

1. I feel myself grow more stupid every time a fact about a famous for being famous person infilitrates my brain.
2, It made me suspect payment for product placement which both saddens and offends me where NPR is concerned.
3. I despise celebrity culture. I can't even really relate to benign fandom, much less people who pay real money to support people--like the Kardishians--who are famous for being famous. I fall so far into Paul Anka's guarantee (void in Tennessee!) of "Just Don't Look" that I refuse to look, even when I know my failure to support the enterprise with my eyeballs has no impact.
posted by crush-onastick at 5:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [57 favorites]


I've never refused to listen to this show on the basis of disapproval of the guest. Even when it's been someone I don't give two hoots about, or even actively despise, it's always fun.
Kim Kardashian? She. Was. Bloody. BORING.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 5:17 PM on June 21, 2015 [14 favorites]


The series of joke directional names was stupid. The kid's obviously going to be named Wild Wild.
posted by acidic at 5:19 PM on June 21, 2015 [34 favorites]


I would like to make a joke about this, but I honestly can't top this sentence:

Monthly sustaining donor Sharonn Flaucher of Tuftonboro, N.H., is "seriously thinking about dropping my membership.

I feel like fuckin Salieri here
posted by Greg Nog at 5:19 PM on June 21, 2015 [52 favorites]


I almost posted this one. Mike Pesca is not amused.
posted by Roger Dodger at 5:21 PM on June 21, 2015 [12 favorites]


It's not like WWDTM is a weighty intellectual salon - or, let's face it, even that good as comedy; most of their jokes are hacky, easy, low-hanging fruit about last week's news. But Kim Kardashian is apparently not good enough for a show that makes up limericks and calls it humor, so whatever.
posted by pdb at 5:21 PM on June 21, 2015 [48 favorites]


What an annoying program that is. Reminds me of that "car powered by my own sense of self-satisfaction" gag from The Simpsons.
posted by thelonius at 5:21 PM on June 21, 2015 [36 favorites]


Yeah, I'm with crush-onastick: Wait Wait has been feeling kind of tired recently, and I seriously eye-rollled at Jim Cramer, but this may be enough to drop the podcast from my feed.

Peter Sagal often riffs on the accomplishments of the guests and how trivial the game is in comparison, but, frankly, this is the other way around. It's a big ol' "You just have to be born rich too" celebration of the nouveau royalty. As The Ardship of Cambry points out, she was boring.

I'm already finding myself, on the few times I end up listening to broadcast radio, hating radio pacing vs what podcast culture is producing, this is kind of the wake-up where I realize that I'm still listening because of nostalgia, not because of what it is. Time to find some cool new podcasts that I don't remember fondly from bygone the days of radio.

I mean, cripes, I don't need to be the inlaws, still watching Lawrence Welk reruns on PBS...
posted by straw at 5:22 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


My interest in celebrities ends at about 1934, so I only have the faintest idea of what a 'Kardashian' is. Here is my advice for unhappy NPR listeners:

1. Look at your car's radio. It probably has something called a 'bluetooth' or a 'cd player' or a 'tape deck'.

2. When NPR starts going on about something that doesn't interest you, you can 'turn on your bluetooth', or 'put in a CD'.

This also works when you're listening to Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me! while cleaning or cooking or giving the pugs a bath.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:22 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


vapid, talentless, and shallow individuals who have not earned fame or fortune through an ounce of hard work have no place on a show of such caliber
This for a quiz show which ranks somewhere around the level of Cheetos as intellectual fare? Dear Area-Man-Who-Does-Not-Own-A-Television: the class-snobbery gauntlet has been thrown!
posted by adamsc at 5:23 PM on June 21, 2015 [27 favorites]


Isn't Paula Poundstone already a little bit edgier than Kim Kardashian?
posted by mubba at 5:23 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


I guess I'm a dissent, because while I rolled my eyes a bit last week when they mentioned she was the guest, I actually was pleasantly surprised - she seemed to be a good sport about poking fun at herself.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [42 favorites]


I would bet one kajillion dollars that if Sasha Grey appeared on the show, there would be 99 percent less vitriol thrown at NPR.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [19 favorites]


God, this has got to be the angriest the audience of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me Has been since Maude was cancelled.
posted by The Whelk at 5:26 PM on June 21, 2015 [110 favorites]


Everyone now knows how to find the meaning of life within himself. But mankind wasn’t always so lucky. Less than a century ago men and women did not have easy access to the puzzle boxes within them. They could not name even one of the fifty-three portals to the soul. Gimcrack religions were big business. Mankind, ignorant of the truths that lie within every human being, looked outward — pushed ever outward. What mankind hoped to learn in its outward push was who was actually in charge of all creation, and what all creation was all about. Mankind flung its advance agents ever outward, ever outward. Eventually it flung them out into space, into the colorless, tasteless, weightless sea of outwardness without end. It flung them like stones. These unhappy agents found what had already been found in abundance on Earth — a nightmare of meaninglessness without end.
posted by batfish at 5:27 PM on June 21, 2015 [33 favorites]


.....Okay, I'll bite: batfish, was that a spoof on "the typical NPR listener", or are you maybe in the wrong thread?

honestly it could go either way
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:29 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


The Kardashian's are everywhere in the media. They are famous in Pakistan, for criminy's sake. Some of us do everything we can to avoid this mindless pablum that permeates the public airwaves and Internets. We'll even put up with the limericks.

But our sanctuary from the mind-numbing nonsense has been invaded. We have every right to be upset. And being called a snob for having even the minimum of standards just makes it even more annoying.

The kind of people who say this are not the kind of people who typically listen to NPR:

"You don't watch the Kardashians? What a snob!"

It is troubling that NPR is so out of touch with its audience that it is even the slightest bit surprised by this.
posted by eye of newt at 5:31 PM on June 21, 2015 [11 favorites]


Am I the only person who is completely charmed by the incongruity of Kim Kardashian being on NPR and secretly hoping that she turns out to be clever and game and awesome? Because I really want Kim K to turn out to be secretly awesome. I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it is my dream.

I don't know. It's a joke game show. NPR listeners, of whom I am one, need to get over themselves.

I guess I should go listen to it now.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:32 PM on June 21, 2015 [49 favorites]


Cool Papa Bell, I would totally tune in for Sasha Grey. I'm not terribly fond of her porn persona, but loved her in The Girlfriend Experience, and think she's done a very interesting job of managing her persona in the broader culture.

ie: She's someone who's accomplished something other than inheriting a sh*load of money.
posted by straw at 5:34 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh! I thought we were talking about something else!
posted by batfish at 5:35 PM on June 21, 2015 [15 favorites]


If anyone discovers what batfish's comment is about, kindly keep it to yourself. To me it's perfect as it is, and you'll only ruin it.
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:36 PM on June 21, 2015 [35 favorites]


ArbitraryAndCapricious, I understand what you are saying. The actress who played the mindless Phoebe on Friends turned out to have once done neural research (her father and brother are famous in the field), and an NPR interview with her got her talking about it in scientific detail until she caught herself and stopped, and said "Oh wow, listen to me!" It was quite charming.

But this is very, very far from the Kardashians. And the NPR staff know this.
posted by eye of newt at 5:37 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


I don't know shit about Kardashians except that they are associated with Kanye West and callipygy in some way, but this really does not reflect well on NPR listeners.

There's a semiotics here. Kardashians mean something to people, and NPR means something to people, and somebody is very unhappy that these meanings got confused. A line was crossed.

Emmanuel Hapsis' take as quoted in the article seems spot on.
posted by edheil at 5:37 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


I for one am appalled that this "Kardiashian" person has the nerve to be famous and successful for reasons I don't approve of
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [94 favorites]


.....Okay, I'll bite: batfish, was that a spoof on "the typical NPR listener", or are you maybe in the wrong thread?

A Vinyl Cafe monologue, perhaps?
posted by betweenthebars at 5:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


ie: She's someone who's accomplished something other than inheriting a sh*load of money.

yes, kim has done nothing, she has no successful fragrance line, no lucrative celebrity endorsements, and she certainly has no incredibly popular and successful mobile video game. she is as worthless as you think she is, it's all true.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:39 PM on June 21, 2015 [94 favorites]


[I've actually seen more Nasim Pedrad as Kim Kardashian than actual KK, by a factor of lots. I think her cameo on one of the live 30 Rock episodes is the only thing I've seen her on that I was watching on purpose. I'd pretty much like to keep it that way.]
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:40 PM on June 21, 2015


Anyone getting angry about Kim Kardashian West being on WWDTM needs major psychological help. Though if having a celebrity on a show you listen to so insults your fragile sense of your own intelligence, maybe you can't helped.
posted by discopolo at 5:42 PM on June 21, 2015 [16 favorites]


WWDTM gets different listeners than usual.

KK gets an unusual (for her) advertising spot for whatever she's selling.

Audience gets riled up (AKA free publicity).

It's a lose-lose-lose win-win-win for everybody.

Especially batfish.

There really needs to be a "Wait, wait don't tase me bro!" mashup T-shirt.
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:42 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


yes, kim has done nothing, she has no successful fragrance line, no lucrative celebrity endorsements, and she certainly has no incredibly popular and successful mobile video game. she is as worthless as you think she is, it's all true.

Are those really your strongest arguments?
posted by Slinga at 5:43 PM on June 21, 2015 [21 favorites]


Is this something I'd have to own a radio to understand? I only get my radio via podcasts...
posted by pwnguin at 5:44 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Also: Obligatory xkcd.
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:44 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm smiling at all the "I hate them but I don't know who they are, well hardly" comments.
posted by discopolo at 5:45 PM on June 21, 2015 [32 favorites]


yes, kim has done nothing, she has no successful fragrance line ...

And that Dubya, he was once an amazing baseball franchise owner.
posted by straw at 5:46 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


Are those really your strongest arguments?

Groan.
posted by discopolo at 5:47 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


Are those really your strongest arguments?

no my strongest arguments against tedious assholes who smugly shit all over women who are successful for things they don't find important would get me banned from metafilter.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:48 PM on June 21, 2015 [336 favorites]


Metafilter: These unhappy agents found what had already been found in abundance on Earth — a nightmare of meaninglessness without end.
posted by dephlogisticated at 5:49 PM on June 21, 2015 [19 favorites]


I am ashamed for my people.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:50 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


no my strongest arguments against tedious assholes who smugly shit all over women who are successful for things they don't find important would get me banned from metafilter.

BAM! Poffin boffin just won Metafilter! SLAM!
posted by discopolo at 5:52 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


Dude, I think successfully applying all that makeup every morning counts as an accomplishment in and of itself.

And I repeat: it's a comedy game show. What's funny about the "Not My Job" segment is that they get random celebrities to answer questions about things they know nothing about, often based on some pun on their name or the title of their job or something like that. It's funny to have Kim Kardashian answer questions about Kim Jong Un, just like it's funny to get Lance Bass to answer questions about bass, the fish, or Marky Ramone to answer questions on Marky Mark. (It's additionally funny because nobody expects Kim K. to know anything about current events.) It. Is. A. Joke. Having Kim Kardashian participate in the joke is not the decline of Western Civilization.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:54 PM on June 21, 2015 [49 favorites]


Say what you want about her, but she's fucking awesome at marketing. That takes real work. I'm not interested in her, but she's capable.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:54 PM on June 21, 2015 [16 favorites]


I would totally tune in for Sasha Grey ... think she's done a very interesting job of managing her persona in the broader culture.

Which speaks as a point toward my assertion -- an NPR listener looks at Kardashian's sex-tape-fueled persona as a negative example of a public image, but looks at Grey's sex-tape-fueled persona as a positive example. Both sex objects. But one of them is the "correct" kind of sex object, setting aside the rather extreme nature of Grey's porn career.

The double standard reminds me of the SNL sketch that parodies Nancy Pelosi. An assistant in her office brings in a guy in full bondage gear and explains that he's his sex slave, and is actually serving as a "human ashtray."

Pelosi: "Umm, there's no smoking in this office."
Assistant: "It's only ever pot."
Pelosi: "Oh, OK."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:54 PM on June 21, 2015 [12 favorites]


There's a semiotics here. Kardashians mean something to people, and NPR means something to people, and somebody is very unhappy that these meanings got confused. A line was crossed.

I think Not My Job is a segment in which the incongruity of the guest is a frequent feature, not an error. I'd listen to Donald Trump if he were to appear there, where I'd turn off just about any other program for the same reason. Hell, they should be trying to book Kim Jong Un for that one. Or any still-living Watergate or Iran-Contra figure who doesn't already have a media career.
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:56 PM on June 21, 2015


I don’t remember the last time her sex tape was brought up by someone not looking to defame or shame her.
posted by griphus at 5:57 PM on June 21, 2015 [56 favorites]


My god. So I work at an NPR affiliate and nothing makes me roll my eyes harder than listeners who seem to pour from the woodwork to complain when any type of pop culture that is even remotely nefarious dares to cross the airwaves.

Their phone calls always start with "I've been a member for (x number of years)..." In the same way people shout "I pay your salary!" at cops.
posted by Maaik at 5:59 PM on June 21, 2015 [58 favorites]


I am an NPR listener who thinks the outrage is crazy. She had a guest bit on Wait Wait, not Daniel Schorr's spot on All Things Considered. Lighten up people!
posted by Daily Alice at 6:00 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


after telling guest host Mike Pesca that his series of joke directional names for her next baby was "stupid").

She didn't say his jokes were stupid (though they went on very long and it's a predictable joke). She said she though it would be stupid to name the next baby after a direction. She was actually very gracious.
posted by discopolo at 6:00 PM on June 21, 2015 [12 favorites]


Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set. It would annoy me to no end if media I actually paid for were to feature them. Frankly, I'm surprised that NPR subscribers, so smugly certain of their tolerance as they are, have the spine to make a point about this.
posted by MattD at 6:01 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


[in brick tamland voice]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT

LOUD NOISES
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:02 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set.

Wake up sheeple!
posted by griphus at 6:03 PM on June 21, 2015 [61 favorites]


Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set. It would annoy me to no end if media I actually paid for were to feature them.

Wait Wait Don't Tell Me sure is a rigorous intellectual exercise the rest of the time tho
posted by brennen at 6:04 PM on June 21, 2015 [66 favorites]




Kardashian is the opiate of the masses. You know who said that? No, you probably don't. Because you've never even READ On The Road.
posted by Greg Nog at 6:05 PM on June 21, 2015 [80 favorites]


I wish I were smart enough to understand MattD's comment, confident enough to tolerate it and brave enough to say so. But us lesser beings have to be content with our inferior lot. Someone pass the slops, please?
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:05 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'm shocked there isn't higher quality control on guests to a comedy chat show that rewards you for having listened to the radio.
posted by The Whelk at 6:06 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


I thought this was really great:

"To some extent, we all do this," Pesca wrote. "The bands we like, the foods we don't eat. But with them, it's a much huger deal. They're closed-minded, they use affiliation with NPR or Fox or Christian Broadcasting not to experience a larger outside world but to congratulate themselves on the purity of their own world."
posted by Slothrup at 6:07 PM on June 21, 2015 [54 favorites]


~*is this something i would have to own a radio to understaaaaand*~
posted by poffin boffin at 6:07 PM on June 21, 2015 [24 favorites]


it's so weird when people go on and on about how she's famous for being famous and hasn't done anything and doesn't work. the reason you feel like you can't escape her? like she's around every corner? like she's infecting every part of culture? that's because she's working constantly. every time a big ole haterade about her starts up, filled with the sorts of things we pretty much only insult women for, i like her a little bit more.
posted by nadawi at 6:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [146 favorites]


Nothing in this thread, or indeed in the tiresome history of Wait Wait itself, is as important as the origin of The Ardship of Cambry's username. Trubba not.
posted by waxbanks at 6:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like fuckin Salieri here

I resemble that remark.
posted by Salieri at 6:09 PM on June 21, 2015 [37 favorites]


oh and my vote for kid's name - omari west - then they can have nori & 'mari and it's a little tribute to the special relationship kanye and his mother shared.
posted by nadawi at 6:09 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


If your last name is West and you don't name your child Adam if it's a boy and Jessamyn if it's a girl there's something wrong with you.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [16 favorites]


Whoever suggested "Wild Wild" upthread is an unhailed genius; you could even put an E on the end and be like "one is for Oscar and one is for Olivia"
posted by poffin boffin at 6:15 PM on June 21, 2015 [29 favorites]


Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set. It would annoy me to no end if media I actually paid for were to feature them.

I've been an NPR member for 3 years and it didn't bother me at all.

The Jonathan Schwartz Show, however, is another story.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


This also works when you're listening to Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me! while cleaning or cooking or giving the pugs a bath.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:22 PM on June 21 [+] [!]

Pics please?
posted by Munching Langolier at 6:36 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


But our sanctuary from the mind-numbing nonsense has been invaded. We have every right to be upset. And being called a snob for having even the minimum of standards just makes it even more annoying.

i am pretty sure people are just calling you a snob because you say things like this, not because of your "standards"

Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set.

giving credence to racist, ableist nonsense like IQ is a distraction for the jerk set
posted by NoraReed at 6:41 PM on June 21, 2015 [46 favorites]


Just wait until the Kardashians do an ensemble showtune with Garrison Keillor.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:42 PM on June 21, 2015 [8 favorites]


OH GOD I JUST HAD A NIGHTMARISH VISION OF KIM KARDASHIAN ON THE JONATHAN SCHWARTZ SHOW SINGING THAT THEME SONG SOMEONE ROCK ME TO SLEEP TONIGHT
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:42 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't normally listen to this show, but the driver of a cab I happened to be in last weekend was listening, so I heard this segment. At first I thought it was a joke -- why would Kim Kardashian be on this obscure little show that probably no one under 60 is into? It's like if she dropped in on a public access show produced by a local high school's AV club. This is one of the most famous people in the world! But after a few minutes, I realized it was real, and then I just settled in. It was cute and funny. I'm not sure what the outrage is about.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:43 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


The Public radio listening audience is aging out, and younger listeners are not replacing them. This is not opinion. It is a well established fact. This is at least partly due to the fact that that it premieres a new show once a decade and continues to run Prarie Home Companion and Car Talk reruns in perpetuity. But it's the same impulse that keeps these shows on the air that creates the cranky idiots who make complaints like these. They have a terrible sense of entitlement because their delicate twee sensibilities have been catered to for three decades and anything that sounds even minutely transgressive of that delicate public radio voice makes them apoplectic.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 6:44 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


2, It made me suspect payment for product placement which both saddens and offends me where NPR is concerned.


You are aware that many of the guests are on Wait Wait as a part of their media tour for whatever they're releasing-- book, album, movie, TV show, whatever-- right? This was no different.

As for my favorite Not My Job, Lewis Black being questioned on Miss Manners was pretty great
posted by damayanti at 6:45 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


If your last name is West and you don't name your child Adam if it's a boy and Jessamyn if it's a girl there's something wrong with you.

Adam West was a guest on the Not My Job segment some years ago.
posted by batfish at 6:45 PM on June 21, 2015


The Public radio listening audience is aging out, and younger listeners are not replacing them. This is not opinion. It is a well established fact.

....So you're saying the listenership of things like This American Life is 60 and over???
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:46 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Metafilter: It was cute and funny. I'm not sure what the outrage is about.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 6:47 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


I've done a pretty good job of avoiding the Kardashians up to now -- from their portrayal in the British media they seem to epitomise everything that bores or irritates me about celebrity culture -- but I really can't find anything objectionable about that segment. She answered questions deftly and with some quiet self deprecation, was pleasant without being dull, and was witty enough to get a couple of laughs. The panelists didn't tear into her as much as they could've, perhaps, but it was within the normal range for the show. As a guest she was perfectly fine, maybe even a bit above average.

I'll admit that as a Brit I'm lacking some of the context, but I've been listening to WWDTM weekly for a few years now and I'm struggling to find anything to be upset about here that isn't rooted in snobbery.

(Totally unrelated: I strongly prefer the BBC's News Quiz for topical satire/comedy. Very different show from wwdtm and has its own imperfections, but well worth trying.)
posted by metaBugs at 6:48 PM on June 21, 2015 [12 favorites]


There was far less outrage when Idi Amin did a guest bit on WWDTM back in 99.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:49 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


wow, if being an NPR listener means being a huge gross judgmental jerk when something i don't 100% love is aired, i'll pass

i mean damn, kim kardashian's not my idol or anything but somehow i never feel the need to go on and on about how terrible and talentless she is, i just... do other things, and the world keeps on spinning

maybe some of y'all need to give that a try?
posted by palomar at 6:56 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


Wait Wait Don't Selfie Tell Me!

*fixed*
posted by Fizz at 6:58 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


....So you're saying the listenership of things like This American Life is 60 and over???

If they're anything like me, the young people listening to This American Life aren't hearing it from a radio.
posted by chrominance at 6:59 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


But our sanctuary from the mind-numbing nonsense has been invaded. We have every right to be upset.

You find sanctuary from mind-numbing nonsense in Wait, Wait... Don't Tell Me?
posted by echocollate at 7:01 PM on June 21, 2015 [43 favorites]


You are aware that many of the guests are on Wait Wait as a part of their media tour for whatever they're releasing-- book, album, movie, TV show, whatever-- right? This was no different.
I believe that Metafilter's own Jesse Thorn has said that nobody ever appears on Bullseye unless they're promoting something, and some of them just hide it more than others. And Bullseye is pretty much the best thing ever to happen to NPR and its associated podcasts. I think that people on the radio tend to be promoting things, and if that irritates you, then you probably shouldn't listen to culture-related stuff on the radio.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:01 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


crush-onastick: "2, It made me suspect payment for product placement which both saddens and offends me where NPR is concerned."

A little while ago, I saw a comment on Reddit about how disappointed they were that all these celebrities doing AMAs (ask me anything, interview-type thingys) were just on there to promote their latest project. I lol'd. Like, how did this person think the world worked?

In other (maybe related) news, I also heard an interview with Paula Poundstone where she mentions that she's been raising her kids without exposing them to television. However, this has had a weird side-effect where they appear to have much lower immunity to advertising. She tells an anecdote where one of her kids, after having watched some TV at a friend's house, and the kid starts a conversation that goes something like this:
Kid: Hey mom. Do you know what the best truck in America is?
Paula: No. What do you mean?
Kid: It's the Dodge Ram.
Paula: What? What are you talking about?
Kid: I saw it on TV. Dodge Ram is the best truck.
posted by mhum at 7:07 PM on June 21, 2015 [61 favorites]


If any of the Kardashians were smart, funny or interesting, wouldn't that have been revealed long before now? I mean, we're talking about a family whose entire existence for the last X number of years has revolved around exposing their personal lives to the media, right? Not a whole lot of hidden depths there to plumb.

That said, the level of outrage that some people are experiencing about this does seem like a "mountain out of a molehill" thing.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 7:10 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


the angriest the audience of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me Has been since Maude was cancelled

And then, there's Maude. BUT WHAT THEN?
posted by thelonius at 7:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Mike Pesca (from Roger Dodger's link), on the NPR listener archetype David Giovannoni called "The Monk":
"It’s crabby, it’s snooty, and it hates the big booty."
posted by obloquy at 7:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


If I were an NPR subscriber, I'd be far more outragey about its slow slide into bland anodyne oblivion than about an appearance by a celebrity who, no matter what snide remarks you may have about her, could potentially get someone mildly interested in subscribing to NPR who's under the age of 50.
posted by blucevalo at 7:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


WWDTM has been at this a long time with their Not My Job segment. I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing...
posted by jim in austin at 7:17 PM on June 21, 2015


But our sanctuary from the mind-numbing nonsense has been invaded. We have every right to be upset. And being called a snob for having even the minimum of standards just makes it even more annoying.

Kardashians and that ilk are distractions for the low IQ set. It would annoy me to no end if media I actually paid for were to feature them.

But what makes this so funny is that WWDTM is not a particularly highbrow show. It's certainly not as if they never talk about celebrity stories - but I guess they keep a "safe distance" by being just enough out of touch? - and they love oddball news and gossip about politicians. Kim K. is just too much a symbol of what's wrong with America it seems.
posted by atoxyl at 7:17 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


If any of the Kardashians were smart, funny or interesting, wouldn't that have been revealed long before now? I mean, we're talking about a family whose entire existence for the last X number of years has revolved around exposing their personal lives to the media, right? Not a whole lot of hidden depths there to plumb.

This appeals to my biases, especially given that whole weird two-week marriage thing back in the day. But then, building and maintaing a multimedia empire -even if it started just because your whole family's names begin with K- takes some savvy. (And besides, Kim is willing to accept Kristen Jenner for who she is, which certainly puts her ahead of some folks out there.)
posted by Going To Maine at 7:19 PM on June 21, 2015


Really folks, no matter which side of the great debate you're on... it's really not worth it.
posted by edgeways at 7:20 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


The extreme defense of the smugly middlebrow Wait Wait . . . Don't Tell Me! from the crassly lowbrow Kim is a good illustration of why so much of NPR and its core demographic are intolerable. There's far less distance between Peter Sagal and the Kardashians than many NPR listeners would flatter themselves to think.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:21 PM on June 21, 2015 [25 favorites]


And besides, Kim is willing to accept Kristen Jenner for who she is, which certainly puts her ahead of some folks out there.)

Well, she is her mom after all.
posted by The Gooch at 7:22 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


I think it's great that Kim was on their little show--quite a get. Not that I listen to it much.

And, not that you asked, but I'm a thirtysomething person who's been an NPR member since I started making kinda-grownup money and who generally thinks that, as the shows get further away from news and journalism, they quickly get more wack.

(On preview, I think it's spelled 'Caitlyn.')
posted by box at 7:23 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


And besides, Kim is willing to accept Kristen Jenner for who she is

...Do you mean Caitlyn Jenner, maybe?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:24 PM on June 21, 2015


Oh, eff yes. Bad on me, and now the edit window has closed.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:27 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


The real snob move is to hate NPR for dumbing things down. They rebroadcast TED talks, people! Plus they only produce like a half hour of actual news all day and just repeat it over and over! They've got all the same problems as the 24 hour cable news channels except they don't even try it fill the time! Then, on the weekend, they have a quiz with corny jokes (which they'll ALSO rebroadcast repeatedly to keep from having to do any actual work) and a variety show that reuses a bunch of old old gags that literally go back to the Reagan era and car advice reruns and generally podcasts saved radio, what the fuck are you still listening to NPR for?!?

The only thing that makes NPR stations worth anything are the non-syndicated shows, the local interest stuff. Here in DC that's Kojo Nnamdi, who is a gem, and Hot Jazz Saturday Night.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:29 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm amazed at how many people think it is no big deal. I guess I was wrong.

(sarcasm hat on)

It seems that Kim Kardashian doesn't have enough media exposure. Who would have guessed? Where else can she show up to promote her intellectually stimulating book of selfies? Maybe Popular Mechanics magazine. The editors will probably get the typical whiny "I'm going to cancel my subscription!" from all those tiresome woodworking snobs. How about Scientific American? Air and Space? Mayo Health Letter?

I'll stop because someone will probably find that she's actually been in all these and I'll have to go find someplace to hide.
posted by eye of newt at 7:29 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


This whole thing reads like parody. That people would seriously get offended to the point of writing letters of complaint and threatening to pull donations because a big name, currently relevant celebrity would appear on a light, frivolous game show (the ultimate prize of which is getting a silly outgoing message on your home answering machine) sounds more like a "Parks and Recreation" plotline than real life.
posted by The Gooch at 7:29 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


the fact that anyone thinks they're seeing the kardashian family's personal life speaks to just how talented they and their business partners are.
posted by nadawi at 7:30 PM on June 21, 2015 [22 favorites]



This appeals to my biases, especially given that whole weird two-week marriage thing back in the day.


I wouldn't want to be married to that a guy like Kris Humphries either. He was a huge dick and a homophobe who made jokes about her best friend's sexual orientation. He is as stupid as they come. Kudos to Kim for realizing it and getting out of that relationship.
posted by discopolo at 7:31 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've seen a few episodes of Keeping Up With the Kardashians. I don't really dislike them. They're not people I want to be friends with but they also don't seem to be terrible people either. Kim isn't a genius, no, but she seem well-meaning enough and has some self-awareness (and a sense of humor about herself). She's not kicking puppies or anything here. Other than star in a reality show and get married to someone famous ... what has she done that makes her a bad person?

I like Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. I listen to it in the car on the weekends when I catch it and it's fun enough. It's just smart enough to make you feel like you're part of the group. It's not high art, though. It's a silly public radio comedy show about the news.

I really thought most NPR listeners would be more grown up than this. People are really cancelling their memberships over this? I hope they put that money to something else useful, but somehow, I doubt it.

(Also, to echo anotherpanacea, Kojo Nnamdi is a national treasure, even if much of his show is DC-focused. I was in talks to be on his show once but I decided my friend was a better choice. I have never been simultaneously jealous but happy for someone ever in my life.)
posted by darksong at 7:34 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


Kudos that Kim realized it and got out of that relationship.

I think that it seemed odd mostly because she got into it. But yes, absolutely. If it was going to be a bad marriage, she should have gotten out of it, and more power to her.

the fact that anyone thinks they're seeing the kardashian family's personal life speaks to just how talented they and their business partners are.

Maybe? That feels delightfully unprovable. (Although, the aforementioned explosion of the marriage after two weeks certainly speaks to something having been hidden from the public.)
posted by Going To Maine at 7:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


the ultimate prize of which is getting a silly outgoing message on your home answering machine

That in itself says a lot about the average age of the listeners. Good luck finding a person under the age of 40 with a home phone, much less with a separate answering machine.

There was far less outrage when Idi Amin did a guest bit on WWDTM back in 99.

This is a sentence that, even if false, contains truth.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:38 PM on June 21, 2015


Thanks to the magic of the internet, I listen to Kojo Nnamdi even though I live a thousand miles away. I also like Brian Lehrer out of New York. I seldom listen to NPR in real time except Morning Edition while I'm getting ready in the morning, but they've embraced podcasting and other forms of non-traditional broadcasting pretty extensively. They also have a cool app that allows you to make a playlist of stories that are interesting to you, which is great for middle-of-the-night insomnia meltdowns. And like I said, Bullseye is great, as is Pop Culture Happy Hour. I think people exaggerate the awfulness of NPR, although I totally admit that Prairie Home Companion makes me want to slit my throat.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:39 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Being on stage your entire life is fucking insane. Reminds of Little Gloria Vanderbilt for some reason, but that's more Paris I guess. .

KK handles celebrity better than most people. She is not in the news for getting in fights or having outrageous hotel room destroying parties. She has made people care enough about her life, like the SenseNet simstim stars in The sprawl trilogy, that she is famous because she breathes. And takes selfies.

What she does is work and she has made herself into a product to a wide and willing audience.

I think she could at any time shut it all down and live the rest of her life in obscurity and have plenty of money. I wouldn't be surprised if she did.
posted by sio42 at 7:40 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think I like Kim Kardashian better than Wait Wait; my metric is that I have seen every episode of KuwtK but I have not heard every episode of WWDTM. I find Kim charming and incredibly motivated, and I admire that. I am an intelligent woman by all standard measures, and yet I think Kim would be a very interesting and fun person to know and have in your life. She seems very self-centered, but she also clearly cares very deeply about the people she loves. She seems like a nice lady. That is what I always say when people ask why I like her: she seems nice. There aren't enough nice people in the world.

Lots of people whose opinions I typically respect have called me stupid for liking Kim Kardashian. My friends laugh at me. I've learned to keep my interest in her quiet in real life. And this is a pretty benign interest, mind you - I've never played her game, or bought any of her perfume, or looked at her tumblr or whatever media she uses to send out pictures of herself (including the book she was selling on WWDTM last weekend).

So personally I was chuffed to hear her on NPR. It was fun and benign. I turn off the radio all the time when it's boring or when I don't care about what they're rambling about on Car Talk or Wait Wait or whatever is on (I always listen to NPR on Saturday mornings, and I also listen to it in my rare stints in the car). I do not understand why people hate her. I just don't get it. And I do not understand why anyone would care at all that she was on one of the goofier weekend NPR programs out there. WWDTM is fun, and is not intended to be srs bsns.
posted by sockermom at 7:42 PM on June 21, 2015 [38 favorites]


Maybe? That feels delightfully unprovable.

well - for starters, all reality tv is scripted to some degree and shows like kuwtk is more scripted than most. secondly, any knowledge of the gossip media, which her type of celebrity and show spawn from, shows even the casual observer that it is utterly stuffed with falsehoods, with a sprinkle of truth or unofficial press release to keep it interesting. finally, just the few things we know about how what we see on the show doesn't conform to real shit they've gone through or done is enough to prove that we're watching a very slickly planned and produced product and they're showing us only as much as they want to when they want. the fact that they've convinced lovers and haters a like that this is really them - that their reality show (and entire personae) are in fact reality speaks to their talents.
posted by nadawi at 7:48 PM on June 21, 2015


I'm amazed at how many people think it is no big deal. I guess I was wrong.

mods can u confirm this is willow pape
posted by Greg Nog at 7:52 PM on June 21, 2015 [22 favorites]


My personal postition is that ANYONE who has been the "star" of a "Reality TV" show is NOT to be treated as a real person. Period. Regardless of anything they have done before or do offscreen or will ever do. It's all fiction, all made up (and the points don't matter). A "Kim Kardashian" branded product is the same as a "Harry Potter" branded product or something from "Betty Crocker". All three of them are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. Which means I don't have to give a tiny rat's buttcrack for any of them. I don't care about fictional characters, even when Game of Thrones or Hannibal kills them off. Which opens up a lot of brainspace for me to be concerned about REAL people. And that goes for the entire Kardashian extended family ever featured on one of their shows, including Caitlyn. Don't care, not real. WWDTM might as well have Leslie Knope or Ron Swanson as guests (the characters, not the actors playing them). Or Jon Snow (who would be funny on a game show because he knows nothing). And the best thing about this position is I can now treat Kanye West as the cartoon character he really is.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:53 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


ok? and? it's always interesting to me how threads like these are filled to the brim with people who claim to not care.
posted by nadawi at 7:56 PM on June 21, 2015 [37 favorites]


I can't stand listening to Wait Wait anyway, so meh. That is my "I don't care" statement, I guess.
posted by limeonaire at 7:57 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


The brilliance of WWDTM is that it is a carefully orchestrated troll of NPR and its audience. Apparently most NPR listeners didn't realize that they were the punchline all along.
posted by humanfont at 7:57 PM on June 21, 2015 [11 favorites]


This press is probably the best thing to happen to WWDTM in a long time, because honestly do most people even remember/know that it exists?
posted by likeatoaster at 8:00 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


My personal postition is that ANYONE who has been the "star" of a "Reality TV" show is NOT to be treated as a real person. Period.

Congratulations on telling us who deserves to be treated like a human being, and who doesn't deserve it!

Seriously, though. A lot of what the Kardashians sell doesn't appeal to me, but the brand of misogyny that shows up in this thread from people who feel the need to shit all over Kim is so, so, so much uglier.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:03 PM on June 21, 2015 [62 favorites]


oneswellfoop: "My personal postition is that ANYONE who has been the "star" of a "Reality TV" show is NOT to be treated as a real person. [...] And the best thing about this position is I can now treat Kanye West as the cartoon character he really is."

Uh, yeah but Caitlyn Jenner (nee Bruce) was also on that show. Who also hosted a little proto-reality show called Battle of the Network Stars. Which featured a murderers' row of 70's and 80's B-list (and sometimes A-list) celebrities. How deep does this rabbit hole go? Is anyone real? Are we all just figments of Tommy Westphall's imagination?
posted by mhum at 8:06 PM on June 21, 2015 [15 favorites]


the brand of misogyny that shows up in this thread from people who feel the need to shit all over Kim is so, so, so much uglier.

Let's be fair: there was also some thinly veiled racism in that particular comment.
posted by Etrigan at 8:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]


I would agree that the Kim Kardashian™ that people say they hate (or whatever other emotions applicable to a television character) is a multifaceted media construct based on a real person who is a very, very successful businesswoman also named Kim Kardashian and about whose heart and soul a TV viewer knows as much about as Kim does that same viewer.

It's a little funny that there are so many people of sophistication who will not hesitate to point out that the media exists to manipulate public opinion and bill_hicks_on_advertising.avi and yet bought Kim Kardashian™ hook line and sinker because, among other things, it was an opportunity to feel above someone. And providing that opportunity is Kim Kardashian, businesswoman.
posted by griphus at 8:12 PM on June 21, 2015 [36 favorites]


Instead of complaining about Kim Kardashian or NPR, I'd rather complain about the announcers on ESPN's Baseball Tonight. Because they suck. Tremendously.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 8:14 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


IT HAS BEEN
0
DAYS
SINCE SOMEONE WOKE UP THE SHEEPLE

posted by maryr at 8:15 PM on June 21, 2015 [149 favorites]


The brilliance of WWDTM is that it is a carefully orchestrated troll of NPR and its audience. Apparently most NPR listeners didn't realize that they were the punchline all along.

Sagal actually does openly mock the show's own audience as being snooty, old, and white. And on the most recent episode he mocked the show itself for its affinity for dumb humor and games, just like everyone here has.

I'm sure the hostile reaction that Wait Wait got here would pale in comparison to a Kim Kardashian interview on All Things Considered.

Isn't it just more her ubiquity than anything else that people are annoyed by?
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 8:26 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


The kid's obviously going to be named Wild Wild.

Better if it was Wicky Wicky "Wild Wild" West.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:36 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


What Would Wicky Wicky Do?
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:36 PM on June 21, 2015


but griphus, that's why some people try to avoid KK™ because it's a media construct they have no interest in and a media construct they don't believe adds value to society any more than Fox News or Talking Points Memo or Upworthy or all the other things designed to obscure that their purpose is to sell you things you neither want nor need and convince you of a paradigm that thwarts efforts to build a more just society.

I imagine KK™ is no less savvy at the business end than Beyonce. But the latter sells a media machine built on the idea of talent and hardwork and the other builds a media machine built on luck, envy or disgust. I know which illusion I think is better for humanity.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:37 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm in a sort of zone where I don't care about any Kardashian but also too I don't care about what NPR listeners think
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 8:37 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


Car Talk is harmless fun, you jerks!
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:39 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


... and the trolls played on.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:42 PM on June 21, 2015


Car Talk is terrible. I'm not sorry.

Best thing on public radio is Le Show, though.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:45 PM on June 21, 2015


It's no Yours Truly, Johnny Dollar.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:47 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


Now I'm Schweddy.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 PM on June 21, 2015


Le Show is the embarrassing vanity project of an out of touch celebrity. It is pretty much literally the worst thing next to Prarie Home Companion.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 8:48 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


Well, I certainly never would have gone to the trouble of complaining to NPR (and there were several WWDTM episodes I tuned out when a lame guest segment started), but as this rolling train wreck unfolded, I couldn't resist pointing out the Fictionality of it all. I have known some celebrities known only for playing 'characters' or 'personas' that were not them (including one who used his own name, like Stephen Colbert did). And even when interviewed publicly 'as themselves', it was never 100% real (and rarely 51% real). So I couldn't tell from anything The Actress Who Plays Kim Kardashian does in public/in character whether she's a good person, or even a good businesswoman. As a "business role model", she may as well be Betty Crocker.

As for "Battle of the Network Stars", Caitlin Jenner co-hosted with Howard Cosell, one of the most artificial personalities in the history of sportscasting (plus O.J. Simpson one year). The "contestants" were representing their TV shows and nothing Gabe Kaplan was ever shown doing in the games was out of character for "Mr. Kotter". And Hanna-Barbera copied it a year later as the "Laff-A-Lympics" cartoon. It was an early influence for my attitude toward UN-reality TV.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:49 PM on June 21, 2015


wait is Yours Truly, Johnny Dollar actually aired on public radio somewhere?
posted by griphus at 8:50 PM on June 21, 2015


Are those really your strongest arguments?

no my strongest arguments against tedious assholes who smugly shit all over women who are successful for things they don't find important would get me banned from metafilter.


So she had a sex tape, got famous, then hired a bunch of marketers to market her already famous name to make money on a video game, a perfume, and celebrities? Sounds like she's a genius captain of industry.

Also this has nothing to do with shitting on successful business women, but thanks for the red herring.
posted by jiblets at 8:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


Speaking of Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me guests, Here's a sampling of some past guests who presumably haven't stirred such outrage:
  • Simon Doonan, former window-dresser for Barney's and maybe best-known from his talking head appearances on VH1's I Love the series
  • Lance Bass, from NSYNC and Season 7 of Dancing With The Stars
  • Andy Cohen, Bravo TV bigwig and executive producer behind the Real Housewives series
  • Tim Gunn, from Project Runway
  • Deepak Chopra, 'nuff said
  • Jerry Springer, also 'nuff said
posted by mhum at 8:55 PM on June 21, 2015 [8 favorites]


Metafilter: Class War Is Over (if yr Kardashian)
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:59 PM on June 21, 2015


it's always weird to me when mefites, who generally consider themselves sex positive and pro-sex workers (even if they're anti sex work industry), get all blustery about celebrity sex tapes, specifically ones like kim kardashian's.
posted by nadawi at 9:03 PM on June 21, 2015 [18 favorites]


Even though I have nothing at all against the Kardashians - I've have been entertained by trashy TV many, many times - I do tend to think it's more that we give that celebrated businessman way too much credit for his unique talents. I mean, it's thousands of people working to bring Kim to our eyes, ears, and noses. But she does have to play her role all the time which is no joke.
posted by atoxyl at 9:08 PM on June 21, 2015


What if it had been Paris Hilton on A Prairie Home Companion?
posted by batfish at 9:11 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


oneswellfoop: " So I couldn't tell from anything The Actress Who Plays Kim Kardashian does in public/in character whether she's a good person, or even a good businesswoman."

But, can you ever know? Doesn't this apply (to varying degrees) to anyone in the public eye? What makes Kim Kardashian in particular or reality stars in general any different from any other performer? Is it merely that their main job is portraying a character that happens to have the same name as them? How about athletes and politicians?

Basically, I wonder how this logic doesn't just wind up treating anyone famous that you don't know personally as "not a real person". If that's your deal, then that's your deal.
posted by mhum at 9:12 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


batfish: "What if it had been Paris Hilton on A Prairie Home Companion?"

Or even Lindsay Lohan.
posted by mhum at 9:13 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, good for her for being a businesswoman and all that. It's just a shame that I don't find her interesting as a personality at all. I have the impression that all she does is post pictures of her ass--and apparently she's publishing a book that is 400+ pages of that? Uh....I don't get the appeal beyond men's wank banks.

I don't have anything against her, I'm just not even a tiny bit interested in the Kardashian/Jenner/West dramaz, even Caitlyn who seems to be the most interesting of the lot of late.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:14 PM on June 21, 2015


😧
posted by batfish at 9:14 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


So much Sturm und Drang. So much.
posted by dejah420 at 9:16 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm NPR sustainer and I'm only disappointed because it wasn't Kim AND Kanye on WWDTM (in fairness, a show I have never entirely understood the appeal of). In other news, if North West does not lend her name to a designer fragrance ("North by North West"), I will be grievously disappointed.
posted by thivaia at 9:26 PM on June 21, 2015 [14 favorites]


They should have her on again next week just to fuck with people.
posted by Brocktoon at 9:28 PM on June 21, 2015 [41 favorites]


I have the impression that all she does is post pictures of her ass--and apparently she's publishing a book that is 400+ pages of that? Uh....I don't get the appeal beyond men's wank banks. 

your impression is wrong.
posted by nadawi at 9:29 PM on June 21, 2015 [26 favorites]


The appearance on WWDTM by Tim Gunn featured an anecdote about J Edgar Hoover that made me laugh hard enough to have to stop driving. Part of it was Gunn's delivery but oh man, when he reaches a certain realization while visiting his father in the nursing home...pretty damn funny.

Out here in the wild wild west, about a quarter of the state gets a Prairie Public Radio station that during the day is focused on roots/alternative/etc music (the other station plays classical during week days then switches to news). The local DJs outa Fargo (you betcha) are masters of the long segue plus we get World Cafe, which by no means sucks. I somehow doubt that the majority of their listeners are the senior citizens most of you think NPR listeners are.
posted by Ber at 9:35 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


There was far less outrage when Idi Amin did a guest bit on WWDTM back in 99.

Surprisingly, he did know a lot about Steve Lawrence.
posted by gimonca at 9:48 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


My comment was not meant to imply that I think the characters on "reality TV" correspond exactly to the actual people who play them.

But Ms. Kardashian has been in the public eye for a number of years now, and gotten tons of media exposure, through her own program, the whole constellation of tabloids and tabloid TV shows that surrounds her sort of celebrity, and on and on.

My point was, if when the cameras weren't rolling, she actually sat around reading Proust and listening to Bach, or was a great tap dancer, or could improvise hilarious bawdy limericks, or do carpentry, or whatever, it seems likely the producers of her show, or someone, would have used that by now, if for no other reason than that they needed the material.

Put another way, one probably should not expect something unexpected from someone so generally overexposed.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 9:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Dad, were you there when Kim K was on NPR?"

*Gazes quietly into the distance, a hint of moisture gathering in his eyes*

"Many jimmies were rustled that day, son. So many jimmies."
posted by danny the boy at 9:59 PM on June 21, 2015 [27 favorites]


wait is Yours Truly, Johnny Dollar actually aired on public radio somewhere?

Not anymore, I don't think. When I was a kid in the late seventies to early eighties my mom and I listened to it on Maryland public radio. I seem to remember them airing Bob & Ray as well, around dinnertime.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:01 PM on June 21, 2015


So she had a sex tape, got famous, then hired a bunch of marketers to market her already famous name to make money on a video game, a perfume, and celebrities? Sounds like she's a genius captain of industry.

I'll never understand this "Kim Kardashian is only famous for making a sex tape, AMIRITE" attitude. KK's sex tape came out over 8 years ago, yet she remains one of the most famous women on the planet all these years later. Certainly if her sex tape represented the sum total of her talents she would have faded away long ago, no? I have a hard time believing that her continued success, nearly a decade later, can just be passed off as having hired the right PR team.

I mean, by that logic, Jenna Lewis should also be an international superstar. If you had to google that name, it sort of makes my point.
posted by The Gooch at 10:02 PM on June 21, 2015 [10 favorites]


> "So she had a sex tape, got famous, then hired a bunch of marketers to market her already famous name to make money on a video game, a perfume, and celebrities? Sounds like she's a genius captain of industry."

Jesus fucking Christ with you puritan ass motherfuckers and that tape. Keep in mind that when you bring up that sex tape, it's something that was stolen-slash-leaked without her permission. By the time she sued the company that bought the thing, it was leaked and torrented a million times over. Basically, when your objection over her success or non-NPR-worthiness (which: laffo) starts with "she had a sex tape", that really means "she trusted a man to keep something private and was betrayed". That's not a great argument.

Secondly, "captain of industry" is one hell of a metric for appearing on Remedial Topical Trivia and Forced Laughter show Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me. I'm assuming your bozo attitude of "captain of industry" hied you to the secretary to pen a stern missive when extreme sports enthusiast Joby Ogwyn was on the show -- or when they had Jerry fucking Springer on. Oh, were you not sniffing at them? Then spend a few minutes to figure out what you're really reacting to, because it's probably not really this woman appearing on a stroke-fest pseduo-intellectual college-campus seat-filler of a show where the home audience can feel like they're rubbin' two brain cells together because they can figure out that 'begun' rhymes with 'Reagan' in some puffed up limerick.
posted by boo_radley at 10:09 PM on June 21, 2015 [73 favorites]


I unironically and unashamedly love Selfie; I think it's pretty great as a piece of art. I don't know how exactly Kim Kardashian feels about it, but from years of reading vapid artist statements I don't think it matters that much. As a piece of self-portraiture it's fascinating, and it's honestly been inspiring to me in facets of my own life and artwork.

I've got tons of books lying around the house and it's for sure the one that's gotten the most comments by anyone who sees it on the coffee table. And I defend it as awesome every time. I'm not "the kind of person" who would generally have any interest in "someone like" Kim Kardashian. All the knee-jerk hate is just so tiresome.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:12 PM on June 21, 2015 [15 favorites]


There was far less outrage when Idi Amin did a guest bit on WWDTM back in 99.

Surprisingly, he did know a lot about Steve Lawrence.


And Idi was so genuinely nice and apologetic to the caller from Florida partnered with him for the audience participation quiz when she lost.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:18 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


your impression is wrong.

It is, however, a large part of her oeuvre.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 10:18 PM on June 21, 2015


Kim Kardashian is a hacker and a scientist. Bear with me.

We are, in so many ways, getting to the edge of human experience. The curiosity gap headlines were really just the start. We can measure human interest on a variety of scales. Coupled with a strong capitalist desire to monetize said interest, the time has been ripe for someone to start tripping several switches at once: substancelessness, sex, family dynamics, voyeurism, celebrity culture, consumerist aspiration, more.

Kim Kardashian is the living embodiment of a multi-vector hack of what compels human interest. She is the precise opposite of the prey animal that stays still when the predator is watching.

Is she aware of what she's doing? Absolutely. But I think she's also fiddling with the DNA of the experiment, guessing at missing sequences where we don't have data. Sometimes she hits (the app) sometime she misses (the first marriage, maybe?). She follows where the data lead.

She pokes, prods, stimulates, bathes us in various neurochemicals and then measures the response. She is a scientist and we are merely cultured cells.
posted by aureliobuendia at 10:28 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah but even if she's just a mercenary socialite, all the slagging on her is hella disproportionate
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:32 PM on June 21, 2015 [12 favorites]


Johnny Dollar! Yes, WAMU 88.5 in the DC area has it on The Big Broadcast. I used to sometimes hear it when I worked a late shift and was driving home around 11pm.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:37 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Kim Kardashian is a hacker and a scientist. Bear with me.

We are, in so many ways, getting to the edge of human experience. The curiosity gap headlines were really just the start. We can measure human interest on a variety of scales. Coupled with a strong capitalist desire to monetize said interest, the time has been ripe for someone to start tripping several switches at once: substancelessness, sex, family dynamics, voyeurism, celebrity culture, consumerist aspiration, more.


Did you just crawl out of a cave?

Ever heard of Mariyn Monroe and multitudes like her?

This phenomenon is nothing new no matter the technology involved.
posted by futz at 10:39 PM on June 21, 2015


I've never really followed anyone in the whole culture of celebrity that we seemed to have developed alongside the rise of digital cable and reality TV, but the amount of hatred and pure impotent rage that a lot of the folks (even here!) seem to have for them is mind boggling to me.

They should have her on again next week just to fuck with people.

I'd rather they get her on "Ask Me Another." It would rain mad khakis.
posted by mcrandello at 10:41 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


All the knee-jerk hate is just so tiresome.

It is tiring, as well as toxic and unoriginal. It's also disappointing that so many people who consider themselves intelligent love to give opinions on topics they never bothered looking into themselves.

It's as bad as ring wingers spewing Fox News talking points.
posted by discopolo at 10:41 PM on June 21, 2015 [11 favorites]


I don't care ... I love it. (music video by Icona Pop, 3min 0sec)
posted by phoque at 10:45 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Getting upset about KK watering down the quality of WWDTM is like saying your chicken-fried steak breakfast is too fatty because the chef had the gall to use sausage gravy instead of regular gravy.
posted by Tevin at 10:47 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


people who don't actually have enough that is interesting about themselves decide to define themselves as being "smart" and so pride themselves on not liking "dumb things"; this becomes especially hilarious when they begin patting themselves on the back about their lack of knowledge of "dumb things" as if said ignorance is a virtue. meanwhile, they continue to perpetuate toxic, misogynistic shit in a way that is profoundly un-self-reflective. it's not quite the same thing as knee-jerk anti-intellectualism, but it does play out in a lot of the same ways; it's just a bit more ironic to see people who claim that it's their intellectual superiority that sets them apart from "the herd" go on about how great it is not to know things, as long as those things involve "low-brow" women with the *gall* to be *successful*
posted by NoraReed at 10:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [53 favorites]


I have the impression that all she does is post pictures of her ass

While objectification of women has lots of problems, I admire when a woman is able to turn that grossness to their own ends and make bank from it (though it would be better it it just wasn't a thing, of course).

I'm reminded of a tumblr post of a woman who works as a stripper, replying to anonymous "shaming" hate: a photo of herself smiling, holding up an enormous wad of money.

As for boring, vapid, not-smart, whatever: who do you think would be bored first in a one-on-one conversation with you? Most of us are a lot more tedious than we think we are.
posted by maxwelton at 10:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


Did you just crawl out of a cave?

No, but thanks for accusing me of it!

Ever heard of Mariyn Monroe and multitudes like her?

Yes, yes I have.

This phenomenon is nothing new no matter the technology involved.

Not really my point, but maybe I did a bad job of communicating it? I think your point is that sex(iness) sells. Something I would neither deny, nor point out, as it's completely obvious. My point is that Kim Kardashian is not merely selling sex, but rather a multi-front assault on human curiosity. That she is not making money in the oldest way possible, but rather that she is experimenting with both variations on sex and new and different and weird and amazing ways of provoking human attention. Sex is neanderthal, perhaps even lizard brain. Weddings are positively Shakespearean. Apps are utterly of the moment. And there are a half-dozen other things she dabbles in to hold human attention. Oh, and she does it across genders and sexual preferences. Marilyn Monroe was an amateur's experiment, a transistor built in the garage. Kim Kardashian is modern-day Apple Computer by comparison.
posted by aureliobuendia at 11:14 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


Count me among the those a bit gobsmacked by the vitriolic reaction of some here.

In the small way that we've recently looked back with mild horror at certain threads from 2008, i do wonder if this thread might be looked back on in 2020 as evidence of how mefi was still often pretty awful only as recently as 2015.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:27 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'm wondering what people think of Arnold Schwarzenegger, say, who became famous for his body (through a lot of hard work and extreme, concentrated focus on same) and good looks, and with some savvy self marketing was able to parlay that into fame, fortune (and even high political office)? Do people feel like this is a similar situation at all, or very, very different?

I mean it wasn't accidental. According to a quote in Wikipedia, he's said, "The Mr. Universe title was my ticket to America – the land of opportunity, where I could become a star and get rich," and in my opinion, it's not his acting skill that got him there. Bodybuilding is athletics and obviously not everyone has the self discipline, focus, or physicality to do it at top levels, but personally, I do see a complement of that in Kim Kardashian's physical gifts and the work and focus that it takes to constantly hone and maintain (and market) them, as well as the same sort of unflinching and unabashed desire for fame and celebrity.
posted by taz at 11:32 PM on June 21, 2015 [55 favorites]


The problem was having expectations of this show in the first place. Except for Paula Poundstone. She's great.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:00 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


On reflection, it's just the host I don't like. The panelists are fine.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:01 AM on June 22, 2015


I did just write a semi-outraged letter to NPR. But it was about a "Republicans say Obamacare is bankrupting the nation and taking away insurance from people; Democrats say it isn't. Who's to say who is right?" piece.

I'm a huge fan of Whadya Know? Though I don't hear it very often. So perhaps I was a huge fan.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:06 AM on June 22, 2015


I had no idea that this had become a Huge Thing. I listened to the segment as it aired, while I got ready for work; I thought Kim was charming.

I have no opinion about her personally, other than I think she's good-looking and clever. And charming. There are clearly far worse people out there.

And wow, yeah... this thread has been interesting. In all the worst ways. Misogyny can run deep sometimes.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 1:19 AM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


OMG!? Screech from Saved by The Bell is on next week!? Time to set my mp3-player and NPR radio on fire! Standards of WWDTM has seriously dropped. What's next? A Listener Limerick Challenge that doesn't contain limericks? A point system that doesn't actually make sense? /s

Seriously, I haven't listened to this particular episode yet, and while I'm not a big fan of celebs that are famous for being famous. Who cares? There are often guests on Not My Job that I have never even heard of. I look forward to listening to this episode.
posted by madjo at 3:06 AM on June 22, 2015


To be fair, Dustin Diamond is kind of a dick, and that outrage would be far more justified.
posted by JLovebomb at 3:11 AM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


I don't get the hate for Kim either. I mean, it's not that people are forced at gunpoint to read articles about her, follow her on social media or buy her book.
So I wonder what mechanism compels people to fixate on her, just to spill hatred over her. Which, btw, even if your not fond of her, is utterly undeserved: she seems to be quite a nice person (even if you buy in that she's shallow), and she doesn't do anything evil. The world is certainly not a worse place because she exists. If somebody believes it is, it's time to find the Off switch and cool down, seriously.
There's material for a psychological study here, I guess.
Anyway, some of the shit said about her by some people I find not very appealing (even here) makes me somewhat like Mrs Kardashian West a bit more.
posted by ojemine at 3:22 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I admit, I used to be one of those people who didn't care for Kim Kardashian and might rib someone for watching her show. But after reading through previous KK-related threads on the blue and then listening to her on WWDTM (which I haven't listened to in a while), I actually have a positive impression of her.
posted by FJT at 3:40 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


"people who claim that it's their intellectual superiority that sets them apart from "the herd" go on about how great it is not to know thing"

I'm just noting down a lot of these comments for my previous AskMe.

As for myself I don't know who Kim Kardashian is, except through comment threads like these (mainly on metafilter) I don't even know what she looks like. I could easily go and find out, but I don't. None of the times she has come up have I gone and looked her up. (Also I'm not in the US, where I gather she is more ubiquitous and harder to casually avoid). I'm not sure why. Is there value in not knowing? No, probably not.
(I also don't know what the comedy show thing she was on is, I assume that's the supposedly highbrow thing. I'm not sure why I read this thread to be honest, except that I have work to do and this is not the work, which I should be doing. I've added nothing!)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:48 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wait Wait jumped the shark after Carl retired.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:03 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ever heard of Mariyn Monroe and multitudes like her? This phenomenon is nothing new no matter the technology involved.

At this moment, Kim Kardashian dressed in a lab coat, scowls, absently taps her pen on her notepad, and then scrawls some notes. Back to the monkey testing.
posted by happyroach at 4:26 AM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]


It is depressing that a woman being a bit boring and taking selfies is treated as forever stained with the sin of unimportance. But kicking your pregnant wife, rape, molestation, partner abuse, all forgivable!
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 4:56 AM on June 22, 2015 [16 favorites]


I would just like to say that Tim Gunn is a fucking national treasure, and his interview on Fresh Air was great, and anyone who puts him on a list of vapid celebrities is not someone whose opinion about celebrity vapidness has any value to me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:04 AM on June 22, 2015 [12 favorites]


Good grief. I'm one of those boring people who really likes WWDTM (because I like anything that lets me shout answers at the car radio), and this is just so coming across as stupid, gendered, and stupid.

Nobody on that show (WWDTM) is fucking important. And I've watched just about every episode of KUWTK, and you know what? Kim is funny. She's a legitimately funny person, and most of the family is funny also. They all are stupid a lot of the time, but they know it, and quickly revert to poking fun at themselves for it, and it's really pretty charming. Hell, I'd rather spend a day with Kim, Kourtney and Scott Disick than Peter Sagal.

How many unimportant and illegitimately famous men have been on NPR? Did anyone freak out and start talking about the sanctity of their fragile IQs then?
posted by still bill at 5:04 AM on June 22, 2015 [10 favorites]


I think Kanye needs to be a guest next week to take things to the next level.
posted by oceanjesse at 5:13 AM on June 22, 2015


In 1998, it's first year, all of the guests for "Not My Job" were NPR staffers and personalities dragooned into it, and in 1999, there were a handful of news industry folks as the show started to gain a wonk-heavy audience.

In 2000, they started to gain a mainstream audience and broke this trend, first with with folk singers and then with Lloyd Kauffman, president of Troma Films, responsible for such cinematic gems as "The Toxic Avenger", "Surf Nazis Must Die" and "Sgt. Kabuki-Man, LAPD."

In August of that year, they had a prominent palentologist, the anchor of a prestigious news program, the cartoonist responsible for "Zippy the Pinhead" and Moon Unit Zappa, who was largely famous for being named Moon Unit Zappa and for being famous.

So, yes, Kim Kardashian, a powerful media mogul, publicity maven and businesswoman has no place at all on a show with the prestige and decorum of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, a quiz show where Bill Curtis reads limericks. How dare she take a place in the royal, intellectual pantheon alongside Gene Simmons of "Kiss", drag performer Peaches Christ and the lady who's voice you heard tell the time when you'd use an old fashioned phone to dial the time service!

It's all been downhill since 1998, clearly.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:17 AM on June 22, 2015 [18 favorites]


I would just like to say that Tim Gunn is a fucking national treasure, and his interview on Fresh Air was great, and anyone who puts him on a list of vapid celebrities is not someone whose opinion about celebrity vapidness has any value to me.

Baileywick, represent! Enchancia would fall apart without him.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:20 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's raining mad khakis

Metafilter:
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:25 AM on June 22, 2015


I think she came off rather well, and when they asked about her renting the stadium "of the lakers" she corrected Peter Segal "and the sparks!".

They should repeat to themselves "it's just a show, I should really just relax!"
posted by nickggully at 5:31 AM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]


This is why I prefer BBC radio. Also they don't do that golf announcer whisper voice thing.
posted by srboisvert at 5:52 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm wondering what people think of Arnold Schwarzenegger, say, who became famous for his body (through a lot of hard work and extreme, concentrated focus on same) and good looks, and with some savvy self marketing was able to parlay that into fame, fortune (and even high political office)?

Okay now just imagining Kim Kardashian running for office, and while I'd like to say absolutely no part of me wants that to happen, the grin on my face that happened when I imagined how people's heads would explode shows that at least part of me actually does.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:57 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


Communities enforce their own brand of snobbery as they see fit. Plenty of outsiders would look at Metatalk and find the issues argued there completely absurd. Even worse because they are rarely reversed. Even when done with the best of intentions. Regardless, passionately overthought silliness done with the best intentions are still silly. NPR listener community and Metafilter community are two peas in a pod, with community standards that reflect their own frequent flyer bubble. Sometimes their insularity and self reinforcement have a tendency make it look like a cartoon to outsiders.

All groups have their Kardashian-too-far. It looks like NPS listeners do an email campaign when that happens. We do Metatalk. I guarantee there's no shortage of what would be sheer absurdity to be found there to an outsider.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:58 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Trubba not.
No trubba.
posted by whuppy at 6:02 AM on June 22, 2015


Car Talk is terrible. I'm not sorry.
Best thing on public radio is Le Show, though.


I've been tired of Car Talk for many years now, and am sometimes sad about the show, because once upon a time it really was a mix of decent car advice and jokey car-centric quips, rather than the mash of random "dad humor" (read sexist and ethnic stereotype nonsense) and painfully self-conscious listeners calling in to ask relationship questions in the guise of car questions, mostly not because they car about their car running well but because they think they're clever or cutesy enough to banter in front of millions of listeners with Tom and Ray.

I reaaaally wish they could find a graceful way to ease these current "classic" CT shows off the air, now that Tom M. has died. Time maybe to let Ask Me Another, Bullseye, or Snap Judgement have some prime airtime? (I have suggested this to the local station I'm a member of, and the programming director actually sent me back a generally agreeing email but nothing has happened yet.)

Hell, I'd rather have them repeat the first hour of Weekend Edition than play the Car Talk greatest hits shows, since if I sleep in on a Saturday I miss that. Though if it means missing a bout of Scott Simon laughing, I guess that's okay.

But I have to say, much as I like some of Shearer's other comedy / acting work, I've never been able to listen to more than 5 minutes of Le Show, which has always seemed labored, oddly sterile, and uniformly unfunny to me.
posted by aught at 6:10 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh MAN if I wasn't where I was with my career and I had a more socially acceptable body and and a few media contacts and kept presenting as super femme I would absolutely stare down the rabbit hole of misogyny (with its fountains of haterade) and say

Fuck it

And then I'd work 24/7 to be in everyone's face all the time with the full knowledge that every time someone typed "I really can't stand Ashen" someone else cut me a check. I would get paid. the fuck. out.

Then I'd get in my fancy car with my fancy friends and laugh uproariously about how I managed to basically get paid for all the misogyny I was expected to deal with for free if I wasn't famous

And then donate a crapton of money to nonprofits that help marginalized communities

And even though Kim Kardashian hasn't donated any money yet and there's no evidence of her sharing my gameplan I absolutely respect that hustle.
posted by Ashen at 6:14 AM on June 22, 2015 [14 favorites]


Metafilter:
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:25 AM


I, a skid mark? Nah. A sad ham in Kirk.
posted by mcrandello at 6:14 AM on June 22, 2015


I'd like to be lowbrow-positive about all this, but the Ks tipped over into pure evil years ago.
posted by whuppy at 6:16 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


>
IT HAS BEEN
0
DAYS
SINCE SOMEONE WOKE UP THE SHEEPLE


Attention mods: I want the above on a t-shirt.
posted by duffell at 6:26 AM on June 22, 2015 [8 favorites]


I seem to have snipped the on-topic beginning of my comment, which was to the effect that I listened to WWDTM when Kim K. was on, and thought she was fine and obviously trying to be a good sport amid the usual yuk yuks, and IMHO was no more offensive than any other media figure they trot through their celebrity segment, which has over the years included various GOP politicians trying to create some moderate cred like Bloomberg and Jeff Flake (and of course Dem politician have been on it as well like the very stiff Nancy Pelosi), but also overexposed mainstream media folks like Ru Paul, Kim Catrall, Paula Deen, Dr Phil, Scarlett Johannsen, Brian Williams, and Larry King. (And prob more folks offensive to rabidly anti-pop culture type than that, honestly.)

Also, there was a point five or six years ago it seems like when WW caught on and it went from having pretty obscure, mostly other-NPR-show guests to having much bigger names. (I'm sure there's a list somewhere that could prove or disprove my thesis, but it's Monday morning.)

An interesting thing I've found over the years is that some of the guests who might make an educated book-centric left-leaner reflexively roll her or his eyes during the opening credits sometimes turn out to be quite a bit more intriguing or interesting than one would expect, which is a nice life lesson for those among us tempted to lapse into teh smug. I'm not sure KK herself defied my expectations all that much (she was inoffensive and game, tho not terribly witty - I mean, one thing she knows how to do from years of her own show and life is handle awkward situations and emerge seeming composed and together herself) but for pete's sake it wasn't anything to get worked up about.
posted by aught at 6:30 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


My personal postition is that ANYONE who has been the "star" of a "Reality TV" show is NOT to be treated as a real person.

Well, there you have it; the objection explained perfectly, I think.

Wait Wait has never kept anyone free of the Kardashians and has never been a vapidity-free zone; I would venture to guess it has spent much, much more time making jokes about the Kardashians and other disdained non-people, cumulatively speaking, than it spent talking to Kim Kardashian for Not My Job, and the fact that it thus dragged them into listeners' fields of vision set off no such firestorm. Nor does the "she was promoting something" angle explain it, given that most people interviewed in most settings are promoting something, and it's often something stupid. What seems to have offended people, as perfectly explained in this comment, was affording this non-person any humanity by having a two-way conversation with her. Humanity is only allowed for approved people; other people are allowed in our line of sight only as targets.

[Disclosure: I work at NPR.]
posted by Linda_Holmes at 6:34 AM on June 22, 2015 [77 favorites]


To be fair, Dustin Diamond is kind of a dick, and that outrage would be far more justified.

Yeah, dude apparently stabbed someone. And yet somehow I suspect we're not going to see the same ire over his inclusion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:42 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


OH I just realized this is the show that had Bill Clinton on and they asked him questions about My Little Pony.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:43 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


Avoiding Popular Songs Somehow Accomplishment For Local Man. You can certainly put the Kardashians in there and the spirit remains the same.

And Paula Poundstone has a way shadier past than Kim Kardashian, for what it's worth.

But I think people have explained upthread what's so grating about the response to Kim; it's beyond not liking her, it really sounds like seething hatred from some people. It's completely over-the-top.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:44 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay, this is my last comment on the topic I swear but the other thing recent WW shows have made me think is that Peter Sagal better watch out letting Mike Pesca sub-host for him every few months, because I think Pesca can do the funny and sharp thing without being the total supercilious prick Sagal sometimes lets himself be.
posted by aught at 6:45 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


every time a big ole haterade about her starts up, filled with the sorts of things we pretty much only insult women for, i like her a little bit more.

This, basically. But in case there was any lingering doubt, I think my love for her was cemented with this tweet.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:46 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


SAGAL: Very excited to have you, sir. I have to ask, first of all, have you ever actually heard our show?

CLINTON: No.

posted by poffin boffin at 6:48 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


My take, having not listened to the WWDT segment but being familiar with reality TV and also a certain subset of the 30-45 NPR-listening cohort, is that reality television is perceived as being distinctly anti- or at least non-intellectual (code for "below the NPR listener caste") and that anyone coming from that world, especially and particularly a member of the de facto royalty, is an "other" and is therefore not welcome on even the lowest brow of NPR shows.

The fact that everyone just loved when Gene Simmons showed up with his pants down on Fresh Air also speaks to the obvious gendered aspect of this kerfuffle.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:50 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Which reminds me of the story that the Kim Kardashian game was originally the idea of Melissa Rivers, who was one of the founders of a small company that actually got a first round of funding and then flamed out in the crash of 2008 and couldn't close a second round. Ahead of their time, apparently.
posted by emmet at 6:50 AM on June 22, 2015


What seems to have offended people, as perfectly explained in this comment, was affording this non-person any humanity by having a two-way conversation with her. Humanity is only allowed for approved people; other people are allowed in our line of sight only as targets.

This, precisely.

Also the additional level of "you've allowed a commoner onto the show, WHAT HORROR" is also pretty disgusting. You get the feeling that a good number of those people are aware that they're not as intelligent as they purport to be, and gatekeep NPR as a means of preserving the delusion that they can't possibly be as unexceptional or unenlightened as everyone else.

Which is not to say that NPR itself doesn't have sharp programming, because it does. Simply that it attracts a certain subset of people who, in marking certain types of media as Things Intelligent People Consume and then barring themselves from being open to other sorts of content, are not demonstrating some of the more principal aspects of intelligence anyway.
posted by Ashen at 6:52 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


You guys all get that North is named for the direction to which escaped slaves fled for freedom, right?
posted by chrchr at 7:01 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also the additional level of "you've allowed a commoner onto the show, WHAT HORROR" is also pretty disgusting.

I agree the reaction against KK seems to be out of proportion, but I don't think "commoner" is quite the angle. If anything my take is that a lot of public radio folks see *themselves* as put-upon "common" decent and educated folks struggling against an exploding world of style-over-substance, pampered massively-hyped new media figures (via the twitters and youtubes and od-demand cable and whatever else all those people are looking at on their phones all the dang time ) they don't understand or want to make the effort to understand. KK is emblematic of that scary new world for some people who end up listening to Wait Wait after catching up on news and cultural events with Weekend Edition.
posted by aught at 7:08 AM on June 22, 2015


You guys all get that North is named for the direction to which escaped slaves fled for freedom, right?

Northwest?
posted by aught at 7:09 AM on June 22, 2015


You guys all get that North is named for the direction to which escaped slaves fled for freedom, right?


Wait, what? I pay a fair bit of attention to both Kim and Kanye, and I've not ever heard that. Only reason I've ever seen put forth for the name--besides the obvious 'wordplay'--is that 'nothing is above north' and that 'she's a star!'.
posted by still bill at 7:20 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm wondering what people think of Arnold Schwarzenegger, say, who became famous for his body (through a lot of hard work and extreme, concentrated focus on same) and good looks, and with some savvy self marketing was able to parlay that into fame, fortune (and even high political office)? Do people feel like this is a similar situation at all, or very, very different?

Pretty similar. People thought Schwarzenegger was pablum for the lowbrows who had parlayed his Mr Universe physique and knack for delivering zippy one-liners (despite a gummy Central European accent) into movie-stardom and riches. Most folks guffawed when he announced he'd run for Governor to replace the recalled Gray Davis, and the jokes -- anti-jock, anti-accent, anti-celeb -- wrote themselves. Then he won.

If not for his philandering, he'd be a Senator by now.
posted by notyou at 7:24 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


One of my biggest regrets is not stealing a Vote Schwarzenegger lawn sign when I lived in California during the election. One of those things belongs in the Smithsonian next to some Ronald Reagan campaign buttons that refer to him as the Gipper and maybe the wrestling singlet Jesse Ventura wore while in office.
posted by griphus at 7:28 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm a lifelong NPR listener and I have Opinions about lots of NPR things but I find it ridiculous how up in arms this sort of thing gets a certain kind of person. It's a silly news quiz show, chill out.

The only shred of value this whole kerfluffle has is that I didn't know Linda Holmes was a mefite and now I do, which is wonderful because Pop Culture Happy Hour gives me great joy, even (especially) when I think they are ALL WRONG about whatever is being discussed.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:29 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Speaking of Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me guests, Here's a sampling of some past guests who presumably haven't stirred such outrage:
Simon Doonan, former window-dresser for Barney's and maybe best-known from his talking head appearances on VH1's I Love the series
Lance Bass, from NSYNC and Season 7 of Dancing With The Stars
Andy Cohen, Bravo TV bigwig and executive producer behind the Real Housewives series
Tim Gunn, from Project Runway
Deepak Chopra, 'nuff said
Jerry Springer, also 'nuff said
--mhum

None of these people are so extremely overexposed in the media that it would be annoying to hear them on NPR. You just can't get away from the Kardashian family, those some of us try. NPR isn't helping.
posted by eye of newt at 7:35 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wonder how much KK hate is racism because of her choices in partners. Like, I really don't pay attention to any celebrities, but goddamn even people that consider themselves socially evolved will say some nasty stuff about KK, stuff I cannot imagine them saying about any other woman who had her privacy violated by an ex releasing revenge porn.

Example, this very community came together to defend Zoe, and yet here we are in this thread with people taking about Kim's sex tape like she was a willing participant in the release.

She's an attractive woman who has parlayed her fathers wealth into her own empire, and I think if she had only ever had White sex partners, we wouldn't see even half the hate.
posted by dejah420 at 7:40 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


griphus: I don’t remember the last time her sex tape was brought up by someone not looking to defame or shame her.

That was a great sextape if you have a fetish for porn shot on a 7-11 security system.
posted by dr_dank at 7:41 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


You just can't get away from the Kardashian family, those some of us try.

I don't watch her show or follow her on twitter or play her mobile game. In fact, aside from various armenian genocide awareness raising things she's been involved with that an armenian friend of mine has posted on tumblr, the place I see stuff about KKW the most is right here on metafilter. It is extremely easy to avoid this family.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:47 AM on June 22, 2015 [41 favorites]


The Kardashians seem to be famous for being wealthy, pretty and willing to expose their lives. I haven't learned anything about them that makes them interesting. I heard the show, was kind of surprised that Kim Kardashian was on it, but she's shilling her book of selfies. She didn't surprise me in any way. No more interesting than anybody you might get randomly. Meh. People getting all in a snit about this might like to consider re-evaluating their priorities. Teapot, tempest, all that.
posted by theora55 at 7:52 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I avoid the Kardashians well enough that she evokes no visceral response--people who get too much of her are clearly consuming the sort of media that talks about her. (I don't mean this in a judgmental way.) I heard the original on the radio, it was mildly surprising they had her on but it just sounded like another 'not my job' with a guest I don't care about.

I have to assume at least part of the backlash is that people think of Wait Wait as 'smart' entertainment and sort of believed getting the jokes signifies something about themselves. If Kim Kardashian gets the jokes too then they realize maybe all it signifies is they have time to listen to a silly radio show.
posted by mark k at 7:53 AM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]


"Won't someone please let me read through my fashion and popular culture magazines without seeing this person who is considered by many people to be an important part of fashion and popular culture? Why can't I watch Access Hollywood in peace from these Kardashians? Can't I even have a ten minute escape from the Kardashian/Jenner onslaught listening to my radio news panel game show where celebrities often come to promote their latest projects?"
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:55 AM on June 22, 2015 [22 favorites]


Won't someone please let me read through my fashion and popular culture magazines without seeing this person

Nope. If only it were restricted to these magazines there would be no problem.

Apparently the Kardashian family are considered so important that they are front page news most of the time. There used to be a few bastions of sanity that we could get away from it.
posted by eye of newt at 8:07 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm actually curious about what news venues you're talking about. That is really not my experience, and I think of myself as someone who consumes a fair amount of news.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:09 AM on June 22, 2015 [15 favorites]


Apparently the Kardashian family are considered so important that they are front page news most of the time. There used to be a few bastions of sanity that we could get away from it.

Yeah, what a bunch of unimportant assholes. That was literally the first result when I googled "site:nytimes.com kardashian". Note that this particular former bastion of sanity also quoted the Pope.
posted by Etrigan at 8:11 AM on June 22, 2015


And now, after listening to the segment, I can't really understand the outrage at all. They introduced her respectfully, she was a good sport throughout and nothing about it seemed exploitative, gauche or tasteless.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:12 AM on June 22, 2015


On one hand I agree, it's very easy to come across something about the Kardashians. Just going through a grocery checkout is enough.

On the other hand, I find it easy not come across them because like many things in life I just let info and people that I don't care to spend brain energy on just float on past any sort of initial recognition stage.

Kinda the same as the decade long Brad, Angelina, Jennifer stuff that always seems to pop up, the British Royals, and most anything to do with US politics that makes it's way up north. Yep it's around, but hey my brain is programmed to not bother processing most of it. The world is full of crap that I just ignore because I can choose to.
posted by Jalliah at 8:16 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


but she is a GIRL a PRETTY GIRL how can she have THOUGHTS that are valuable to ME AN IMPORTANT SMART PERSON she does things i DISAPPROVE OF or DON'T CARE ABOUT so how does she have ANY DEMONSTRABLE HUMAN WORTH

why not BIRD RIGHTS
posted by poffin boffin at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2015 [43 favorites]


eye of newt puts on a pair of sunglasses that makes every person on the front page of their local newspapers and magazines appear to be Kim Kardashian in a white shirt with plain black lettering that says IN-APP PURCHASE.
posted by griphus at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


It's interesting to watch Metafilter's prejudices try to align themselves here. Because famous women are not to ever ever be forgiven for a mistake, even one they rectified (Amanda Palmer did in fact start paying her volunteer musicians immediately after the outcry, but around here it's nothing but "she doesn't pay her musicians"), but here we have Kim Kardashian who isn't even a human being because of fashion or TV or her ass or sex or something, versus the perceived-to-be-intellectually-superior NPR show with a permanent panelist who was convicted for driving drunk with her children in the car, and separately took a plea for lewd acts with a child under 14, but that woman is whiter and older and more masculine-presenting than the other so she goes in the "better" slot.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:21 AM on June 22, 2015 [19 favorites]


On one hand I agree, it's very easy to come across something about the Kardashians. Just going through a grocery checkout is enough.
I mean, sure, but I think the Kardashians are probably among the least offensive people on the covers of those magazines, and anyway the problem with those magazines is clearly the magazines, not the people in them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:22 AM on June 22, 2015


I believe Etrigan has provided the key to solving this mystery. Serdar Argic has turned his focus to hating on Kim Kardashian.
posted by bukvich at 8:23 AM on June 22, 2015


This weekend Taylor Swift faced down Apple in defense of artist royalty rights...nothing on the Blue. NPR had Kim Kardashian on a show- 240+ comments worth of GRAAR.

This says something interesting about Metafilter's relation with women.
posted by happyroach at 8:24 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


happyroach: "This says something interesting about Metafilter's relation with women."

Go make that Taylor Swift post. It'll be great.
posted by boo_radley at 8:26 AM on June 22, 2015 [18 favorites]


she was a good sport throughout

Hey, Kim Karsashian actually won the "Not My Job" segment for whom she was playing for, which is more than I can say for Jeff Bridges, who lost on purpose. That's being Undude.
posted by FJT at 8:27 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


And just to clarify: I genuinely mean that - I know that tersity is often shorthand for sarcasm, but not there.
posted by boo_radley at 8:28 AM on June 22, 2015


I don't get either the fascination or the hatred, honestly. Had I been listening at the time, I would have shrugged. Many celebrities are famous for stupid things or for good things they did decades ago (Howie Mandel still gets work, when's the last time he was funny?). Hollywood is not a meritocracy, and if you know enough people and are savvy enough/good looking or rich enough, yeah, you can be famous if you want to be. NPR is not immune to the culture of celebrity.

I don't get why this person is somehow the last straw. People were fascinated with the Windsors, who were equally famous for doing nothing in particular (and were apparently Nazi sympathizers, which at least Ms. Kardashian is not as far as I know).
posted by emjaybee at 8:30 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Apparently the Kardashian family are considered so important that they are front page news most of the time. There used to be a few bastions of sanity that we could get away from it.

Yeah, what a bunch of unimportant assholes. That was literally the first result when I googled "site:nytimes.com kardashian". Note that this particular former bastion of sanity also quoted the Pope.


Actually, I think it's more interesting that that search gets only ~8,500 results. "Kim Kardashian"? ~7,680. "Miley Cyus"? ~13,700. "Harrison Ford"? ~11,700. "Paul Newman"? ~17,500. "Tim Gunn"? ~1,400. "Tom Hanks"? ~6,160. "Mindy Kaling"? ~1,530. "Jeff Goldblum"? ~3,000. "Vera Wang"? ~ 2,790. "Kanye West"? ~19,900. (No doubt some overlap there…) "Angelina Jolie"? ~8,710. "Brad Pitt"? ~7,580. "One Direction"? ~94,600.

This is totally unscientific, and I would imagine that it's some kind of exponential power curve, but I'm not sure that Kim is necessarily near the tippy top for public exposure. (Obama blows all of the above away with 384.000, but that seems a tad unfair.)
posted by Going To Maine at 8:30 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean, sure, but I think the Kardashians are probably among the least offensive people on the covers of those magazines, and anyway the problem with those magazines is clearly the magazines, not the people in them.

I agree. I don't have an issue with KK herself.

I suppose my comment was me trying to address the whole 'they're everywhere and we can't get away from them thing' in a more diplomatic or polite way then just if you don't like her, just friggin learn to let the mention or sight of her/them pass through your brain just like most people do with a million other things we don't personally give a shit about but are surrounded by all of the time.
posted by Jalliah at 8:31 AM on June 22, 2015


boo_radley: Go make that Taylor Swift post. It'll be great.

That would be worth it if only to see a giant blinking "TILT" where the main page used to be.
posted by dr_dank at 8:34 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't get why this person is somehow the last straw. People were fascinated with the Windsors, who were equally famous for doing nothing in particular (and were apparently Nazi sympathizers, which at least Ms. Kardashian is not as far as I know).

A related question: Would NPR listeners be angry if Pippa Middleton showed up?
posted by Going To Maine at 8:35 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think the only time I actually notice the Kardashians or anything of what people call tabloid culture is when I scan the magazine covers at the grocery stores. And I have to say the constant coverage of the royals is infinitely more annoying that KK herself could ever be.

I too find the classist/misogynist conversations about her very existence tiresome.
posted by Kitteh at 8:35 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm not going to listen to that segment, because I have utterly no interests in anything about the Kardashians, but I did read the Mike Pesca article to see what this brouhaha is about. This topic is all over the place but I saw some interesting points made.

You can't escape popular culture if you tune in at all to any level of media, be it just social media, just a radio news channel, or even only visiting MeFi (case-in-point, this topic). And while you can try and skip those stories or topics, eventually they seep into things you are interested in, such as an NPR show or an actually-decent rap collaboration. Eventually, you might even have to know things about people you're not interested in to discuss them in a way that matters (or because your girlfriend at the time insists that you listen to her ramble on about reality tv). But you can choose to focus on things that matter.

From the Pesca article, the whole thing really seems blown out of proportion. She seemed as interesting as any other vapid celebrity that tries to be interesting in an interview. Beyond that, just turn off the radio and move on with your life. Getting that upset over things you really can't control is a waste of time and energy. Your paid membership keeps NPR and shows such as Morning Edition going, but other people probably pay to have celebrities be interviewed for a corny talk show. If you really can't stand it, cancel the membership and find free podcasts that will satisfy you.

That said, is there really a need to defend her so vehemently? She's famous for being famous, no one denies that. But most of her current accomplishments are possible because she became famous. I'm sure any of us could be great endorsements for worthy causes or have a successful mobile app if we were stars in the first place. If a major point is that she cares about Armenia (perhaps maybe because that's her ethnicity?), or that she's giving back to charity, then we should celebrate and make FPPs anytime any of us donate to charity or flies to another country to participate in their culture.

And let's not fall into the hole of automatically assuming misogyny just because someone doesn't like a famous woman (yes, I saw some comments that were definitely misogynistic, but others seemed to hate on just her, and not women in general). I consider myself a feminist, but she's just a person who doesn't deserve the attention she gets. Why don't we try and make Mallory Ortberg more well known than her?
posted by numaner at 8:36 AM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


i want to start this comment by clearly saying that anyone who uses the sex tape as a mark against her are fucked up and they should examine why they think it's a valid thing to disrespect her over.

having said that, one of the reasons kim's tape isn't treated like revenge porn is because there are questions about whether or not she/kris were behind the release (and in fact taped it specifically to release). this is not a reason to insult her or degrade her or think less of her, just that's one reason it's not automatically treated as revenge porn (brandy's little brother is still a raging shit head, though - of that there is no doubt).
posted by nadawi at 8:38 AM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


It strikes me that if your biggest objection to KK is her ubiquity, then your real enemy is society and pop culture itself, which has always latched on to the lowest common denominator when it comes to "what we look at".

Once upon a time it was Paris Hilton. Now it's the Kardashians. At some point in the future it'll be some other person. We've always been a society where the woman who was pretty to look at and fashionable and glamorous was in the public eye for vague reasons and didn't require you to engage in any way that possibly challenged your opinions about things got way more attention than the people who actually made things that required you to think about your opinions.

So, yeah, Kim Kardashian is the latest example, but your real problem is society itself. Best to just sigh and move on.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, seconding nadawi on that: my impression, from following the whole gang, is that the Ray J tape was not exactly leaked under the standardly horrid and creepy revenge porn guidelines (like, say the Pamela Anderson/Tommy Lee tape was). I think it's at least suspected--if not accepted--that Kim and Kris were involved in the tape's release. And yes, Ray J is a total piece of shit.

One of the funny things about Kim and the whole family, on KUWTK, is the way they joke about things like that tape with one another.
posted by still bill at 8:42 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm not mad that she was on the show, but I changed the station when I heard she was on there. I figured there was a chance some other station might be playing old 70's pop songs I like. I'd WAY rather listen to "Don't Fear The Reaper" for the 80 millionth time than listen to KK. Am I snob now? Or somehow anti-feminist?
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:43 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


I like Kim more and more every time I read threads like this. She works harder than I do on any given day, and I work pretty f-ing hard. Many people might not realize or consider how exhausting and labor-intensive it is to perform femininity at the expert level that Kim Kardashian does, and to act like a decently nice person who doesn't take herself too seriously at the same time? Jesus.

And a word about selfies: all the ire about people taking flattering photos of themselves that make themselves feel good is baffling. I love selfies! I love other people's selfies and seeing how they want to present themselves. There has been a lot written about selfies as self-care, and owning your own representation--which, to someone whose work requires a whole lot of representation, is probably pretty empowering.
posted by witchen at 8:44 AM on June 22, 2015 [21 favorites]


I'm not mad that she was on the show, but I changed the station when I heard she was on there. [...] Am I snob now? Or somehow anti-feminist?

Nah, but you actually deprived yourself of a pleasant surprise; she's not bad at bringing the snark.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:49 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm not mad that she was on the show, but I changed the station when I heard she was on there. I figured there was a chance some other station might be playing old 70's pop songs I like. I'd WAY rather listen to "Don't Fear The Reaper" for the 80 millionth time than listen to KK. Am I snob now? Or somehow anti-feminist?
Nope. I frequently change the channel when there's something on the radio I don't care about. That's normal radio behavior, although I'm sometimes glad when I don't change the channel and am pleasantly surprised by someone. What's weird is when people express outrage that their pure sanctuary has been invaded by the crassness of mass culture, so much so that they write angry letters and what have you. If you aren't writing outraged letters or posting weird, gendered things here, you're probably fine.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:51 AM on June 22, 2015 [14 favorites]


or because your girlfriend at the time insists that you listen to her ramble on about reality tv
...
yes, I saw some comments that were definitely misogynistic


yeah, like in your very own comment. i disagree that she's famous for being famous and i disagree that anyone with her wealth and access can be just as famous as her/her family - which is proven by the fact that rich connected people fail all the time to reach her heights. if putting your name on a really great app, having a slew of well rated shows, endorsing a wide variety of things, being paid to walk red carpets, etc, were all so easy with just fame and access a lot more people would be at her level.
posted by nadawi at 8:52 AM on June 22, 2015 [7 favorites]


It's somewhat amusing to hear the snide remarks about NPR catering to the over-60 demographic.

FWIW since broadcast TV and radio became advertising supported (ie, since their inception, basically) there has been a laser-like focus on the 18-35 demographic because that is the one most sought-after by advertisers. This age group hase disposable income and (even more important from the advertiser's perspective) are persuadable--not set in their ways.

It was quite common in say the 1990s to have radio stations catering to teens, 20s, 30s, and maybe a bit the low 40s age groups. And el-zippo for young children or pre-teens and adults 45 and older (let along 60 and older!). Despite the fact that there is clearly a mass audience of some hundreds of millions in these age groups in the U.S. alone.

In fact, these age groups (under 14, say, and over 45) actually make up a majority of the population. You wouldn't know that listening to/watching mass media, though. You would assume 98% of the population is in the 15-45 age group.

My sense is that in the era of the internet and the aging of the baby boom this has stretched out some, but still you get music stations on radio (for example) aiming at teens, 20s, and then you get into some (not very many) "classic rock" stations (stretching as far back as the 70s once in a while, OMG!) and then "oldies" (the occasional 50s hit . . .). In short, you do get a bit of media that caters to people as old (!) as their early 50s but that's about it.

There is nothing there, and hasn't been for the past 40 years, that would appeal (for example) to my parents, who grew up in the 40s and early 50s and (guess what!) are still alive, kicking, and (attention advertisers:) are spending lots more money that my wife and I or their granchildren are.

TL;DR1: Our mass media caters to a specific, small demographic that is actually a minority of the actual population.

TL;DR2: It is AOK, and actually desirable in a society that is supposed to be something like democratic and egalitarian, to have stations and programs that cater to these neglected demographics, even (GASP!!!!) the dreaded over-60 demographic.

The fact that some shows and stations are doing this isn't some cringe-worthy or mockable offense, in fact it should be considered rather normal and praiseworthy.
posted by flug at 8:52 AM on June 22, 2015 [7 favorites]


and separately took a plea for lewd acts with a child under 14,

My memory from the time is that there was no actual evidence for that charge and it was dropped. I also think it's a bit weird to rip apart another celebrity unfairly in much the same way you're poo-pooing other mefites for supposedly doing to Kardashian.
posted by aught at 8:54 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


(to be clear, pam and tommy wouldn't classify as revenge porn either as the tape was stolen from them. revenge porn is when one partner, usually the guy in a straight relationship, releases sexually explicit material of his former partner without their consent usually after the relationship ended with the angle of wanting to punish them for something)
posted by nadawi at 8:55 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


 I also think it's a bit weird to rip apart another celebrity unfairly in much the same way you're poo-pooing other mefites for supposedly doing to Kardashian.

not "supposedly" - all the evidence is in this thread. and pointing out that bad acts aren't at the root of the hate by comparing kim to someone else on the show isn't ripping anyone apart.
posted by nadawi at 9:00 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


and separately took a plea for lewd acts with a child under 14,

My memory from the time is that there was no actual evidence for that charge and it was dropped.


Poundstone pled out, got probation, and went to rehab.
posted by Etrigan at 9:01 AM on June 22, 2015


Why don't we try and make Mallory Ortberg more well known than her?

Seems worth noting that at least on the Blue, people were making that effort, only to be rewarded with MetaTalk threads full of complaints about "Peak Ortberg" and strident pleas to not ever link her stuff anymore.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:02 AM on June 22, 2015 [18 favorites]


all the ire about people taking flattering photos of themselves that make themselves feel good is baffling.

Wealthy people used to sit for many days' worth of hours to have flattering portraits painted of themselves. It's only stupid/vapid/self-centered when young modern-day women do it themselves I guess.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:02 AM on June 22, 2015 [21 favorites]


There is nothing there, and hasn't been for the past 40 years, that would appeal (for example) to my parents, who grew up in the 40s and early 50s and (guess what!) are still alive, kicking, and (attention advertisers:) are spending lots more money that my wife and I or their granchildren are.

Actually (cringe), the Jonathan Schwartz show would, perhaps.

...And even here we see a lesson in "sometimes the people you think you hate can bring pleasant surprises", because it was his show where I heard a lovely version of a folk standard that I hadn't heard before.

but the rest of his show makes me turn off my radio
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:03 AM on June 22, 2015


Go make that Taylor Swift post. It'll be great.

I want to actually, but my phone isn't letting me. That's partially why I was so frustrated.
posted by happyroach at 9:11 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm not a fan of either the Khardasians or NPR. But I loathe smugness so that makes NPR worse, I suppose.
posted by jonmc at 9:28 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was actually toying with the idea of making a Taylor Swift post this morning--if I didn't have to, y'know, work at the place today, it might've happened.

If somebody wants to work on one, and I hope you do, here's a Longreads reading list from last year that should provide some nice background.
posted by box at 9:57 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I turned the station immediately when I realized it was Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. Kim Kardashian is the person with the tv show and stuff, right? I guess she might have brought the show up a notch, but Peter Sagal's voice is like fingernails down a chalkboard to me.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:59 AM on June 22, 2015


Why can't I watch Access Hollywood in peace from these Kardashians?

To quote myself, and lest anybody thinks my background is from a group of culture snobs (though a quick browsing through my user history could clear you of that assumption), I was just reminded this part of my previous joke is an almost verbatim quote from my household.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:13 AM on June 22, 2015


I genuinely hope that insightful graduate studies are being done about the nerves that Kim (and Kanye, maybe even more so) keep hitting in the current zeitgeist.

It seems to me that a big reason Kim gets so under the skin my parents' cohort (largely-East-Coast-WASPy-but-not-"old money"), for example, is because they just blanch (heh, literally) at public displays of vanity/pride/bragadoccio/fameseeking/personality-as-brand-as-enterprise. It's so against their personal nature to act, well, conspicuous -- let alone unapologetically so -- and I think they simply can't make the mental leap to realize that Not Everyone Is Like That, that not everyone values being demure and "respectable" at the expense of other qualities and drives, be they artistic self-expression or personal wealth creation or society's greater good or something other. I also don't think they really understand how much privilege is inherent in being content to be a don't-rock-the-boater, let alone chastizing the usual suspects through that lens.

Hell, I don't think they could really even relate to Martha Freakin' Stewart, forget Kim Kardashian or Kanye West.

We've talked a bit in Metafilter about the word "trashy," with its class and racial undertones and its frequent service at the hands of slut-shamers. I think it's a big factor in the easy insults about and dismissals of Kim... with the added ire/judgment/eyerolling at all things Nouveau Riche that makes it easy to get away with it as punching "up."

I hope that more and more of this stuff gets unlocked in a way that people (including me) can better understand their own visceral reactions to the success of someone like Kim... and that she IS in fact a human being. She might not make all the same decisions that you'd make, but who does? And how boring would the world be if everyone did?
posted by argonauta at 10:14 AM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


I love Rachel Syme's Notes on Kim where she argues that KK is our Marie Antoinette.
posted by heatherann at 10:23 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Honestly, the best was when they relentlessly mocked people for objecting to Kim Kardashian on the next show. I giggled like anything. WWDTM is on my podcast list for "cheerful and fun" along with a few other NPR goofy things, so I listen every week while I drive. It had a similar trolling vibe to the first time They Might be Giants was on Ask Me Anything and did their "Wrong WRONG wrong WRONG" game.

When her name came up last week I was surprised, but I knew so little about her besides the edges of pop culture static, so I thought it would be neat to hear her in a deliberately ridiculous situation. She didn't disappoint, though she seemed a little baffled. Understandable; WWDTM is the goofy uncle of Ask Me Anything, and both definitely trade on humor that is about being silly - something fairly uncommon these days. It's no They Might Be Giants on Ask Me Anything, but very little is.

RE: selfies - they're the self-portraits of our era. Now that it doesn't require years of practice to paint, I'm not surprised most people want to follow in the footsteps of great artists. Largely, people dismiss them because they're associated with young women - like people object to vocal fry, uptalk, and Tumblr. Due to unconscious associations developed over a lifetime, people associate women with things of lesser value and that plays out in characteristics and activities women engage in. The fact it's unconscious and associative is why so many people say, "misogyny is horrible, but objecting to these objectionable women isn't sexism! It's reasonable and what every right thinking person should do!"

And honestly, I think the chances of people actually cancelling their membership is fairly low; people just say things like that in an attempt to manipulate others into doing what they like - it's just the reason they should be obeyed that changes.

(Pop Culture Happy Hour Listeners REPRESENT!)
posted by Deoridhe at 11:19 AM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


Man, I love how outraged MeFites get when you don't like the same pop culture figures as they do. All the accusations of "isms" is just the icing on the cake.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:26 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


In an act of kindness, because (A) even though I don't think the Kim is completely unavoidable, I do acknowledge she's in a lot of places you can't always avoid (the aforementioned checkout stand magazine covers) and (b) her enterprise and its success do have some characteristics that I feel are overall negatives (though these are rarely the ones mentioned when she comes up), here's the easiest coping skill I've found works for others (

It's best to think of her as an artist whose work you don't like. She's the singer whose voice just grates despite his success. She's the sculpture whose genius you just don't get. She's the novelist you think it just a pretentious schmuck and why can't other people see that?

What I'm saying here are that there are probably plenty of people of varying levels of fame whose work you don't like. Use those skills to get through this Kardashian Krazy world we find ourselves in. Using them doesn't make you a snob or anti-pop culture or anti-feminist at all. (Talking as often as it comes up about how you don't like them and wish others also would not, that's where people step in it.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:27 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Been reading older FPPs about Kim a bit. There's a few, which mostly talk about recent controversy and her game. I'd like one that talks about her life and growth!
posted by halifix at 11:51 AM on June 22, 2015


She's the novelist you think it just a pretentious schmuck and why can't other people see that?

If we want to compare her to a novelist I would think of her as less of a pretentious schmuck and more of the type you see at an airport news stand - another Dan Brown or Nickolas Sparks.
posted by Ber at 12:01 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, you know, that's not stuff that I usually read, but I'm not outraged by its existence, either. It is ok for there to be lots of different kinds of books that appeal to lots of different kinds of people. And I could see either Dan Brown or Nicholas Sparks being perfectly amusing on Not My Job.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:03 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Pearl-clutching NPR fandom combined with this inane Chris Ware cover are making me very crabby. This aired in 1994, for fuck's sake. I would be so happy for us to have moved past this O tempora, O mores horse shit, even incrementally.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:05 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Man, I love how outraged MeFites get when you don't like the same pop culture figures as they do. All the accusations of "isms" is just the icing on the cake.

You are epically missing the point. Must be nice to live in a world where none of those obnoxious "isms" affects you at all.
posted by witchen at 12:06 PM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]


I KNEW there was something that Chris Ware cover reminded me of.
posted by griphus at 12:08 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Man, I love how outraged MeFites get when you don't like the same pop culture figures as they do.

There's a distinct and obvious difference between "don't like the same pop culture figures as they do" and "take the time to comment about how dumb anyone who likes those pop culture figures is".
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


You are epically missing the point. Must be nice to live in a world where none of those obnoxious "isms" affects you at all.

You assume a lot. Besides, the great thing about accusations of isms is that they cannot ever be successfully refuted!
posted by entropicamericana at 12:47 PM on June 22, 2015


Let's just skip to the end and assume that entropicamericana has already accused everyone of "just looking to be outraged."
posted by Etrigan at 12:53 PM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]


something something clickbait something callout culture something something tumblr bad
posted by griphus at 12:56 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


something something injoke hashtag you would have to spend 150 hours a week on the internet to understand something something vague sense of superiority
posted by entropicamericana at 1:05 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Could you folks keep it down? There's sheeple trying to sleep here. Let me just turn that soothing NPR back on...
posted by straight at 1:07 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


go home dad, you're boring.
posted by kagredon at 1:07 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


[something something cut it out something]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:09 PM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]


Am I still smug if I listen to NPR ironically? Or does that make me, like, double-smug?
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:21 PM on June 22, 2015


The Chris Ware thing seems like "I'm old but the kids are alright" - obviously I know why you are primed to expect otherwise but did you read the text in your link?
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Metafilter: you kids and your O tempora, O mores horse shit
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:25 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


The kid's obviously going to be named Wild Wild.

GNU West

The free software community is outraged.

Mid West

Minnesota goes apeshit.

Shallow West

Irony commits suicide.
posted by tempestuoso at 1:30 PM on June 22, 2015


Am I still smug if I listen to NPR ironically? Or does that make me, like, double-smug?

If the opposite of high-brow is low-brow and vice versa, is the opposite of middle-brow just more middle-brow?
posted by NoraReed at 1:35 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Remember when 'Nobrow' was briefly a thing? NPR does.
posted by box at 1:46 PM on June 22, 2015


John Seabrook, The New Yorker's "Buzz Studies" writer, deftly conveys the hubbub of modern pop culture, the blending of highbrow and lowbrow tastes, into a new sensibility he dubs "Nobrow." In Nobrowland, nobody can sell out, because art and commerce have fused like colliding electrons.


where was the outrage about vapidity on NPR when they interviewed this guy
posted by kagredon at 1:49 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


did you read the text in your link

I did not! I get the tree-pulp version in the mail, and was only searching for an image of that cover to link to. I didn't even realize there was an essay beneath the image, there. Reading it does temper my interpretation of the cover. I'm still crabby, tho. SO CRABBY.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:55 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


In Nobrowland, nobody can sell out, because art and commerce have fused like colliding electrons.

Q: If you could get colliding electrons to fuse, what would you get?

A: A terrible non-scientific analogy, of course
posted by Existential Dread at 1:58 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


An electrtwo?
posted by Etrigan at 2:07 PM on June 22, 2015


Existential Dread: "A: A terrible non-scientific analogy, of course"

Like letting air out of a balloon!
posted by boo_radley at 2:24 PM on June 22, 2015


I consider myself a feminist, but she's just a person who doesn't deserve the attention she gets. Why don't we try and make Mallory Ortberg more well known than her?

Or we could recognize that they are two people who do very different things and not position them in competition with one another solely on the basis of both being women.
posted by kagredon at 3:24 PM on June 22, 2015 [43 favorites]


The misogyny in this thread is horrifying.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:53 PM on June 22, 2015 [13 favorites]


'Deserve' is one of those words that, when I hear it or read it, it kind of makes me double-check all the other ones.

(By the way, here's something else for that Taylor Swift megapost you've been working on.)
posted by box at 4:21 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I guess some people got their "your shit does not stink? You snobby" outrage flipped. I cannot think of anything more snobby than categorizing people as uppity only because they don't like something and dare speak their mind. Pffff, these NPR know all and their tastes, these proletarians.
posted by elpapacito at 5:39 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Here's the deal, tho. Peter Siegel and Ira Glass are closer to each other than further. When Ira found out he had been played like a chump, he immediately paid cash money for the liar to explain his lie in a special episode.

Peter, now that he knows his listeners are misogynist, elitist gutterscum, will hire Kim as a panelist after this, just you watch. She will be matching wits with Bobcat and Paula, and Bill Curtis will be AhhhMUsedddddd...dddd. (That he has a career after "Unsolved Mysteries")
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:17 PM on June 22, 2015


I feel like this could've been an interesting conversation between, on one side, feminism and sex positivity and pragmatic empowerment and on the other side, a critique of consumerism where a capitalist narrative of success infiltrates an institution of civic society. and like how do you find a resolution between these two competing critiques

instead we just have a bad ol case of the Mondays

:(
posted by runt at 8:46 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


What I know about Kim Kardashian: She is incredibly pleasant to look at, she has a nice voice, and she seemed like a pretty good sport. I thought the bit was cute.

More importantly, though, she has never done anything to hurt anyone I know. OK, if she murdered any of y'all's Mamas, I will be angry. But as far as I can tell, she's just super pretty and super harmless. Why all the bile?
posted by MissySedai at 10:24 PM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


have all of the Kardashian haters gone their whole lives without watching way too much GSN while sick/stoned/hungover? because, man, in the 60s/70s you could've filled a whole small town with people whose job was basically to play entertaining caricatures of themselves on various TV shows.

and that small town...was called Hollywood Squares.
posted by kagredon at 11:33 PM on June 22, 2015 [7 favorites]


More importantly, though, she has never done anything to hurt anyone I know.

Surely this has been said already upthread -- I think there are those who would argue, for example, her shamelessly profligate lifestyle exploits the poor and damages the environment by at least an order of magnitude (maybe two; they spontaneously jet to Vegas and NY an awful lot) more than most of us Western/developed consumer slobs, who ourselves admittedly exploit the poor and damage the environment in our day-to-day activities, and her enormous celebrity appeal encourages fans to aspire to behaviors that will increase their own negative impact in those areas.

(But, yeah, of course, she seemed nice enough on Wait Wait and I too have stopped my channel-surfing at E! to snort and eye-roll for a while at her family's tribulations and antics.)

and that small town...was called Hollywood Squares.

Don't forget the wacky neighboring village named "Match Game," and the sprawling cameo-suburbs "Love Boat" and "Fantasy Island."
posted by aught at 7:32 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


and that small town...was called Hollywood Squares.

And the radio version of that is currently Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.
posted by jaguar at 7:37 AM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


and that small town...was called Hollywood Squares.

Don't forget the wacky neighboring village named "Match Game," and the sprawling cameo-suburbs "Love Boat" and "Fantasy Island."


Please send me the GPS coordinates for here because it is my home planet and I must return immediately.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:42 AM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Surely this has been said already upthread -- I think there are those who would argue, for example, her shamelessly profligate lifestyle exploits the poor and damages the environment by at least an order of magnitude (maybe two; they spontaneously jet to Vegas and NY an awful lot) more than most of us Western/developed consumer slobs, who ourselves admittedly exploit the poor and damage the environment in our day-to-day activities, and her enormous celebrity appeal encourages fans to aspire to behaviors that will increase their own negative impact in those areas.

This is not a criticism I would expect in a million years to find if, say, Tim Cook was on WWDTM.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:34 AM on June 23, 2015 [16 favorites]


Please send me the GPS coordinates for here because it is my home planet and I must return immediately.

do you have a secret fortress where a giant hologram of Charles Nelson Reilly's head dispenses witty bonmots of life advice to you

because if so I'm jealous
posted by kagredon at 9:41 AM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


[A few comments deleted. The personal stuff in here has kind of eased up, let's not bring it back now.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:16 AM on June 23, 2015


Kim Kardashian is an upgrade over regular panelist PJ O'Rourke. This comment is also funnier than anything he has written in the last decade.
posted by humanfont at 10:39 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


her shamelessly profligate lifestyle exploits the poor and damages the environment

Ah, of course. Think of the environment! (And ignore the slavering Green Eyed Monster behind the curtain.)

Wake me up when she eats babies or murders kittens or enslaves grandmas or something else genuinely harmful to something more than your moral outrage switch.

If she offends you, change the channel. I hear you can even use your phone as a remote these days, so you don't have to go digging in the couch cushions. Problem solved.
posted by MissySedai at 10:43 AM on June 23, 2015


jaguar noted: "And the radio version of that is currently Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me."

After a bit of introspection, I think that's pretty much why that episode didn't sit well with me.

It's kinda like when Terry Gross (or, for that matter, pretty much any interviewer, it's just more apparent when she does it because she's really good at hiding it) books someone fad doctor and the façade breaks down and suddenly it's apparent that she's just reading off the question list the publicist provided. We see Oz behind the curtain.

It was a real kick in the "yeah, Paula Poundstone's self-deprecating schtick has been old for a few decades now", and "PJ O'Rourke is a throwback to the '70s" and "oh god what am I doing with my life, am I ever going to get that hour back?"

My experience is that anger comes from when my internal model doesn't match up with reality. This was a good reminder that Wait, Wait... is just that same celebrity culture that disturbs me elsewhere, wrapped up with a label that I've been greedily consuming.
posted by straw at 10:45 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


books someone fad doctor

We see Oz behind the curtain


ISWYDT
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:49 AM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


My experience is that anger comes from when my internal model doesn't match up with reality. This was a good reminder that Wait, Wait... is just that same celebrity culture that disturbs me elsewhere, wrapped up with a label that I've been greedily consuming.

I think the key is really that there's nothing wrong with enjoying small doses of that. WWDTM, KUWTK, Hollywood Squares--none of these are exactly groundbreaking or unpredictable entertainment, but sometimes you just want something on in the background while you do chores/run errands and sometimes you're just tired and down about shit and want something fun and light to escape for half an hour. It's like candy: you probably shouldn't be living on the stuff, but wanting to treat yourself now and then is not something to be ashamed of. But yeah, I think there were people who wanted to believe that WWDTM was somehow fundamentally different or more virtuous than KUWTK and are mad because that belief has been confounded.
posted by kagredon at 11:20 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


it occurs to me that the common link between Hollywood Squares and Wait Wait is PG-13 rhymes/limericks, and I think this could really benefit KUTWK

I vote for Khloe to be the Nipsey Russell/Carl Kassel. She seems like the most deadpan Kardashian.
posted by kagredon at 11:26 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think the key is really that there's nothing wrong with enjoying small doses of that. WWDTM, KUWTK, Hollywood Squares--none of these are exactly groundbreaking or unpredictable entertainment, but sometimes you just want something on in the background while you do chores/run errands and sometimes you're just tired and down about shit and want something fun and light to escape for half an hour. It's like candy: you probably shouldn't be living on the stuff, but wanting to treat yourself now and then is not something to be ashamed of. But yeah, I think there were people who wanted to believe that WWDTM was somehow fundamentally different or more virtuous than KUWTK and are mad because that belief has been confounded.

Yes! I actually tend to really enjoy Wait, Wait. The only radio station I really listen to is NPR. And I like a lot of crappy reality television. These things aren't mutually exclusive; it's not like the NPR brain-cells jump out of my ears when I turn on Bravo.
posted by jaguar at 12:17 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Kim and Kanye really cause people to get the knives out on Metafilter and that is bizarre
posted by Hoopo at 8:41 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


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