Rihanna Unchained
July 9, 2015 6:40 AM Subscribe
"[I]t is her flipping of masculinist scripts—the reclaiming of chauvinistic language, the cartoonish and flippant treatment of violence, her insistence on getting paid for her labor, and her reenactment of machismo through her hyper-feminine fashionista presentation (replete with an all-girl posse)—that makes the BBHMM video [NSFW] much more layered than a simple woman-hating narrative, as some have labeled it."
More coverage from The Atlantic and HuffPo.
#BBHMM on Twitter
More coverage from The Atlantic and HuffPo.
#BBHMM on Twitter
Casting Hannibal was brilliant-- "Oh, are you offended by this video? Because here's a guy who eats people on your TV every week."
posted by gwint at 6:51 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by gwint at 6:51 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
gwint: "Because here's a guy who eats people on your TV every week."
Rookie mistake! You assume people actually watch Hannibal.
posted by barnacles at 6:53 AM on July 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
Rookie mistake! You assume people actually watch Hannibal.
posted by barnacles at 6:53 AM on July 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
It's an outlaw story. Popular in Western fiction. Not usually told by women, and not usually ending in the survival of the outlaw.
posted by Peach at 7:03 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Peach at 7:03 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Before you start to write a #BBHMM isn't feminist thinkpiece, stop yourself. Eat a cookie. Remember that everything isn't about you.
posted by kmz at 7:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by kmz at 7:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
When Rihanna Messages You on Instagram, You Answer: An Interview with BBHMM's Sanam(SLVice)
posted by PenDevil at 7:13 AM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 7:13 AM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
love rihanna, love this video, love all the lead singles for r8, love love love sanam.
also, if you missed it in the tidal mess, rihanna's video for american oxygen is powerful (and full of state sanctioned violence).
posted by nadawi at 7:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
also, if you missed it in the tidal mess, rihanna's video for american oxygen is powerful (and full of state sanctioned violence).
posted by nadawi at 7:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I wasn't familiar with the song when she performed it on SNL, and I was like what in the world? Then a few weeks later I got put on to the whole song, and it wasn't clicking for me. Then I was like, hey can you play that Rihanna song again? Then I was like, I'll put this on my iPod just so I don't have to bug you. Then I was like BITCH BETTA HAVE MY MONEY! BRRAP! BRAP! BRRAP! Then the video came out and I was like "What in the world?". And then a few days later I found out the story about her accountant, and her suit, and her victory, and now I feel like this song is now one of the most bad ass diss tracks in the history of popular music. You just bought a shot indeed.
posted by cashman at 7:23 AM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by cashman at 7:23 AM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
It's an outlaw story. Popular in Western fiction. Not usually told by women, and not usually ending in the survival of the outlaw.
See also Butch Cassidy and the Rogue Accountant.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:24 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
See also Butch Cassidy and the Rogue Accountant.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:24 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have to admit, I'm wary of this trend of proclaiming how the media you enjoy is the most progressive/feminist thing ever. It's not and that's okay. It's not the most anti-feminist thing either, it's just a really cool video.
posted by bgal81 at 7:25 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by bgal81 at 7:25 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
All the cult film references in BBHMM
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 7:31 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 7:31 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
i loved @MissObdurate's take on it :
Just for fun, I would love a month where all male celebrities are forced to justify their work as feminist instead.
"I just don't see why you would ever write a song that doesn't further women's equality, sir. Care to explain how this video achieves that?"
"So you date women, but your recent red carpet appearance did nothing to solve wage inequality? Why is that?"
posted by nadawi at 7:37 AM on July 9, 2015 [48 favorites]
Just for fun, I would love a month where all male celebrities are forced to justify their work as feminist instead.
"I just don't see why you would ever write a song that doesn't further women's equality, sir. Care to explain how this video achieves that?"
"So you date women, but your recent red carpet appearance did nothing to solve wage inequality? Why is that?"
posted by nadawi at 7:37 AM on July 9, 2015 [48 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. If your contribution is "I don't care for this kind of music or this musician" or any variety of "people shouldn't be interested in this" please just pass the thread by. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:43 AM on July 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:43 AM on July 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
At the point at which your leftwing politics has you arguing forcefully in favour of graphic imagery depicting the sexualized torture of women, I do think it's worth at least wondering if maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
There doesn't seem to be much of this kind of openness to self-criticism around at the moment though.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:15 AM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
There doesn't seem to be much of this kind of openness to self-criticism around at the moment though.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:15 AM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
Well, it's empowering because a woman is doing it and we're seeing this through the female gaze so it's a woman assuming a male role and male space and honestly articles like this are reminding me of the bullshit critical reading essays I'd come up with 30 minutes before my English homework was due in HS.
posted by bgal81 at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bgal81 at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not buying any of this thinkpiece apologism. Rihanna's not doing any of this ironically or analytically, she's just doing it because that's the style and she likes it, and that is fine.
Ultimately, I think it's far more misogynist to move the goalposts of what feminism is to try and define "things or people you personally like" as feminist than just accepting that, hey, we live in a fucking patriarchy. Sexist videos have been around since there have been videos and feminism is still keepin' on keepin' on, but this kind of malignant narcissism is way more of a threat. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two generations least likely to donate their time and money to good causes seem to be the ones driving and consuming a lot of this self-indulgent, analytically and politically bankrupt Jezebel "feminism", where it's really more a personal brand than a political movement.
At the point at which your leftwing politics has you arguing forcefully in favour of graphic imagery depicting the sexualized torture of women, I do think it's worth at least wondering if maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
It's not really leftwing politics. It's narcissistic personal branding disguised as leftwing politics. The primary concern of the writers churning out thinkpieces like this is their own self-image, as Mikki Kendall/Karynthia says. They're never going to rethink any of this because they're not actually engaging on a political level anyway.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:29 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ultimately, I think it's far more misogynist to move the goalposts of what feminism is to try and define "things or people you personally like" as feminist than just accepting that, hey, we live in a fucking patriarchy. Sexist videos have been around since there have been videos and feminism is still keepin' on keepin' on, but this kind of malignant narcissism is way more of a threat. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two generations least likely to donate their time and money to good causes seem to be the ones driving and consuming a lot of this self-indulgent, analytically and politically bankrupt Jezebel "feminism", where it's really more a personal brand than a political movement.
At the point at which your leftwing politics has you arguing forcefully in favour of graphic imagery depicting the sexualized torture of women, I do think it's worth at least wondering if maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
It's not really leftwing politics. It's narcissistic personal branding disguised as leftwing politics. The primary concern of the writers churning out thinkpieces like this is their own self-image, as Mikki Kendall/Karynthia says. They're never going to rethink any of this because they're not actually engaging on a political level anyway.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:29 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm not buying any of this thinkpiece apologism. Rihanna's not doing any of this ironically or analytically, she's just doing it because that's the style and she likes it, and that is fine.
You say this based on what? I don't think I've read much from Rihanna herself about this, which is the only way to know for sure what she intended to do with it. Further, I'm not sure it's even possible for a black woman in America to make a video where she gets to be the hero of a revenge fantasy against white people who wronged her and have it be about "the style." That's not the style.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:36 AM on July 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
You say this based on what? I don't think I've read much from Rihanna herself about this, which is the only way to know for sure what she intended to do with it. Further, I'm not sure it's even possible for a black woman in America to make a video where she gets to be the hero of a revenge fantasy against white people who wronged her and have it be about "the style." That's not the style.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:36 AM on July 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
There's an important distinction here I think:
Probably nobody should be forced to justify their work as feminist, and we probably shouldn't expect that a video created to sell products to consumers to make rich people even richer is going to conform to any particular progressive ethical code.
But there's a strong tone in lots of the links here, and that quoted tweet, implying that there's something wrong with feminists voicing their not-exactly-absurd opinion that the video, given its horrific imagery, really isn't very feminist, or anything for progressives to celebrate – and that these feminists should pipe down and "eat a cookie" (FFS!) instead.
Two different things. The impulse to tell people to shut up exemplified by the latter is something worth resisting.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:50 AM on July 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
Probably nobody should be forced to justify their work as feminist, and we probably shouldn't expect that a video created to sell products to consumers to make rich people even richer is going to conform to any particular progressive ethical code.
But there's a strong tone in lots of the links here, and that quoted tweet, implying that there's something wrong with feminists voicing their not-exactly-absurd opinion that the video, given its horrific imagery, really isn't very feminist, or anything for progressives to celebrate – and that these feminists should pipe down and "eat a cookie" (FFS!) instead.
Two different things. The impulse to tell people to shut up exemplified by the latter is something worth resisting.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:50 AM on July 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm not sure it's even possible for a black woman in America to make a video where she gets to be the hero of a revenge fantasy against white people who wronged her and have it be about "the style." That's not the style.
Seriously. It's remarkable that people, including people in this thread, glide over the fact that this isn't just a music video about revenge. It's a music video about a black woman getting revenge on white people who have done her wrong.
If you RTFA:
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:55 AM on July 9, 2015 [23 favorites]
Seriously. It's remarkable that people, including people in this thread, glide over the fact that this isn't just a music video about revenge. It's a music video about a black woman getting revenge on white people who have done her wrong.
If you RTFA:
Is Rihanna’s video messy, sexist, anti-feminist, outrageous? It has its moments, both feminist and anti-feminist, however, reducing its narrative to whether it’s feminist or not seems rather shortsighted. We live in a world in which racist killers raise the specter of white womanhood—and raped white womanhood in particular—to justify the murders of black women and men. That Rihanna would recycle the same spectacle of victimized white womanhood—as a way to harm white manhood—is a complicated critique of these problematic gendered racial narratives. Not to mention her own critique of certain women who collude in white capitalist patriarchy, as the video clearly shows the “trophy wife” of the accountant (the “Bitch” who absconded with her money) enjoying a lavish lifestyle, funded by stolen money, thus highlighting the ways that elite women are viewed in terms of oppression rather than sisterhood.Also, from TFA:
Rihanna is quite deliberate in her choice of Canadian actor and model Rachel Roberts; she is the beauty ideal in our culture and the specter of white womanhood that white supremacists violently defend and that marketers promote as a “universal” ideal. That she is subjected to various abuses—stuffed in a trunk, hung naked upside down, drugged and knocked unconscious—is akin to little girls destroying their “perfect” dolls precisely because such beauty models are viewed as oppressive (the “doll” metaphor is most obvious when Rihanna’s posse take turns literally “dolling” her up in a motel room). In literally objectifying the “kidnapped” white woman (the type that mainstream media offers up in 24/7 coverage), Rihanna’s video subverts standard tropes of victimized womanhood through the spectacle of bad-girls-on-the-run. There is even space for sisterhood here since the kidnapped wife is not raped or beaten in the motel room but is instead shown enjoying herself at this all-girls party, which complicates this as more than a “misogynistic” story.Next up, belated pearl-clutching about Beyonce intentionally dropping her napkin in the Partition music video, and having her white maid pick it up.
Of course, the “value” of this wife is rendered satirically since the so-called “Bitch” (as Rihanna cartoonishly reminds us that the subject of her rage is the husband and not the wife) could care less (sic) that she has been kidnapped. He has already replaced her with other women.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:55 AM on July 9, 2015 [23 favorites]
You say this based on what? I don't think I've read much from Rihanna herself about this, which is the only way to know for sure what she intended to do with it. Further, I'm not sure it's even possible for a black woman in America to make a video where she gets to be the hero of a revenge fantasy against white people who wronged her and have it be about "the style." That's not the style.
She doesn't need to objectify women to do that, but she did. Intersectionality isn't a hall pass to be misogynist just because you're [inserted group on underprivileged side of other power dynamic].
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:59 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
She doesn't need to objectify women to do that, but she did. Intersectionality isn't a hall pass to be misogynist just because you're [inserted group on underprivileged side of other power dynamic].
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:59 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
And for "that's the style", I pretty much mean both revenge flicks that the video is aping and also videos for popular music in general. I'm not talking specifically about hip-hop or any other kind of black music. She made this particular video because she wanted to make this particular video, period, full stop, and I don't think the burden of proof for "it was totes ironic! seriously! she's secretly a doctoral canidate in both film and women's studies!" needs to fall on the people arguing it wasn't some kind of ironic trope subversion.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 9:05 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 9:05 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder how often male artists (and white male artists especially) have to justify their work as feminist or have their work viewed through the progressive/not progressive lens.
posted by bgal81 at 9:05 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bgal81 at 9:05 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
bgal81: "I wonder how often male artists (and white male artists especially) have to justify their work as feminist or have their work viewed through the progressive/not progressive lens."
This isn't a conversation about men. It's a conversation about Rihanna's music video.
posted by barnacles at 9:07 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
This isn't a conversation about men. It's a conversation about Rihanna's music video.
posted by barnacles at 9:07 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
raising issues of white women's tears is not necessarily misogynistic. it's entirely valid and i think it's good for us white women to sit with any complicated feelings that arise from being confronted with the trope.
posted by nadawi at 9:08 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:08 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
This isn't a conversation about men. It's a conversation about Rihanna's music video.
. . . how about the double standards that get applied to music videos made by black women, and those made by white men?
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
. . . how about the double standards that get applied to music videos made by black women, and those made by white men?
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
The "white women's tears" has been so divorced from the actual meaning that I wish I had a add-on that replaced it to something funnier.
posted by bgal81 at 9:11 AM on July 9, 2015
posted by bgal81 at 9:11 AM on July 9, 2015
If you think hyper-capitalism or misogyny are any more virtuous because they're being performed by a person of colour; if you defend behaviour or attitudes in celebrities of colour you would absolutely tear a white celebrity to pieces for even hinting at then, sorry, you have a problem with race, whether you think you're being anti-racist or not.
posted by Sonny Jim at 9:14 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 9:14 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
And this is why I hate over-intellectualizing pop culture. It's a cool video. Rihanna makes great, catchy music and Mads looked hot getting beat up. No, we don't know that Rihanna or the director or someone didn't intend this to be a blistering attack on misogynoir but we also don't know that they did. It's just everyone projecting onto the video and then arguing when other people disagree with their projections.
posted by bgal81 at 9:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bgal81 at 9:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's a coincidence that the two generations least likely to donate their time and money to good causes seem to be the ones driving and consuming a lot of this self-indulgent, analytically and politically bankrupt Jezebel "feminism", where it's really more a personal brand than a political movement.
Which generations are these? It's the Boomers, right? Because they're the ones who are self-indulgent and politically bankrupt in all the other threads on here?
~~~
I think there's another question here and I don't know what I think:
To what degree can violent or sexist imagery subvert [bad things]? I tend to assume that Rihanna and Beyonce and Nicki Minaj and their various creative teams aren't stupid, so if there's a strong and plausible reading of a video as intentionally subverting, for example, norms about white womanhood as the best womanhood, I tend to assume that they put that content in the video with a political purpose. So, does it work? And for whom does it work?
I'm a risk-averse person who is easily tripped into imagining the real of screen violence - if I watch a video of a woman getting tortured, no matter how cartoonish it is and how clearly the video signifies that this is a fantasy/metaphorical space, I tend to slip into thinking about how women really do get tortured worldwide and all the time, and imagining the suffering of the victim in the video and generally getting freaked out. This type of video really does not work for me as a political tactic. I don't watch violent films except on very rare occasions and even the ones I do watch tend to be weak sauce.
How much of that is about who I am outside of privilege? That is, how much of it is because of the particular fashion in which I'm wired to empathize and to respond to film? How much of it is because as a white person with a decent job in a decent city who has been able to avoid violent partners, I think of violence as something that happens elsewhere in situations of extreme terror and disorder, rather than as a routine if bad aspect of daily life?
For whom might this video be an effective subversion? For whom might it be comforting or enjoyable from a feminist standpoint?
I tend to default to "war movies are always arguments for war" - images are powerful, fascinating and seductive, and I usually think that even the most subversive war movie is still about war's fascination. But then I live very much out of the world in a lot of ways - I think that someone who is much more enmeshed in our commodified and violent public sphere might find this kind of thing politically powerful precisely because they're already in a sea of violent pop images.
posted by Frowner at 9:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Which generations are these? It's the Boomers, right? Because they're the ones who are self-indulgent and politically bankrupt in all the other threads on here?
~~~
I think there's another question here and I don't know what I think:
To what degree can violent or sexist imagery subvert [bad things]? I tend to assume that Rihanna and Beyonce and Nicki Minaj and their various creative teams aren't stupid, so if there's a strong and plausible reading of a video as intentionally subverting, for example, norms about white womanhood as the best womanhood, I tend to assume that they put that content in the video with a political purpose. So, does it work? And for whom does it work?
I'm a risk-averse person who is easily tripped into imagining the real of screen violence - if I watch a video of a woman getting tortured, no matter how cartoonish it is and how clearly the video signifies that this is a fantasy/metaphorical space, I tend to slip into thinking about how women really do get tortured worldwide and all the time, and imagining the suffering of the victim in the video and generally getting freaked out. This type of video really does not work for me as a political tactic. I don't watch violent films except on very rare occasions and even the ones I do watch tend to be weak sauce.
How much of that is about who I am outside of privilege? That is, how much of it is because of the particular fashion in which I'm wired to empathize and to respond to film? How much of it is because as a white person with a decent job in a decent city who has been able to avoid violent partners, I think of violence as something that happens elsewhere in situations of extreme terror and disorder, rather than as a routine if bad aspect of daily life?
For whom might this video be an effective subversion? For whom might it be comforting or enjoyable from a feminist standpoint?
I tend to default to "war movies are always arguments for war" - images are powerful, fascinating and seductive, and I usually think that even the most subversive war movie is still about war's fascination. But then I live very much out of the world in a lot of ways - I think that someone who is much more enmeshed in our commodified and violent public sphere might find this kind of thing politically powerful precisely because they're already in a sea of violent pop images.
posted by Frowner at 9:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
One aspect I find interesting is that the acts in the video are not uncommon - we see them all. the. time. in fiction and in real life. But, it seems, when the perpetrator is a woman, it makes people uncomfortable. Like, it's even more evil/heinous because a woman is doing it - a woman, who should be docile, forgiving, demure, seen and not heard. It's a female power fantasy, it's women behaving recklessly in their own self-interest without concern for others (male or female) and that's a narrative we don't get to see very often. See also, reaction to Gone Girl (and other Flynn works), female serial killers, et al.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 9:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
No, we don't know that Rihanna or the director or someone didn't intend this to be
just as a note, rihanna co-directed this video (only making a point to mention it because women's work often gets overlooked if there's a man nearby who can get the credit).
posted by nadawi at 9:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [21 favorites]
just as a note, rihanna co-directed this video (only making a point to mention it because women's work often gets overlooked if there's a man nearby who can get the credit).
posted by nadawi at 9:21 AM on July 9, 2015 [21 favorites]
there was also a really interesting conversation on twitter that i can't find right now about how being a public victim of domestic assault is something that is forever in the public consciousness but being a (white) perpetrator is something that's often forgotten quickly - for instance, eric roberts, the cop who drives by and ignores the plight of the kidnapped wife, is an admitted (former) wife beater - which purposefully constructed or not, gives a little extra dimension to his scenes.
posted by nadawi at 9:28 AM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:28 AM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
when the perpetrator is a woman, it makes people uncomfortable. Like, it's even more evil/heinous because a woman is doing it
I think the crucial point is: this is surely true, but this being true doesn't make it a good thing that this video exists.
posted by oliverburkeman at 9:39 AM on July 9, 2015
I think the crucial point is: this is surely true, but this being true doesn't make it a good thing that this video exists.
posted by oliverburkeman at 9:39 AM on July 9, 2015
it doesn't make it a bad thing either.
posted by nadawi at 9:39 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:39 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's just everyone projecting onto the video and then arguing when other people disagree with their projections.
You could say this about pretty much any discussion of any piece of artistic output in the world ever. Doesn't mean they are not worthwhile discussions to have.
posted by jonnyploy at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
You could say this about pretty much any discussion of any piece of artistic output in the world ever. Doesn't mean they are not worthwhile discussions to have.
posted by jonnyploy at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
if you defend behaviour or attitudes in celebrities of colour you would absolutely tear a white celebrity to pieces for even hinting at then, sorry, you have a problem with race,
Does this apply to use of the n-word? Because I think most Mefites would shred a white music star for using the n-word, but feelings would be different (and probably more varied and 'well, if this person has thought about it, then I, as a non-black person, recognize my opinions do not matter') on a black music star using it.
It makes no sense at all to evaluate expression without considering the identity of the person saying it. That goes for everyday words. It goes in doubly so for artistic expression. That goes triply when the artistic expression involves charged content.
I mean, I can't actually watch the music video all the way through because I have problems watching violence -- I have to hide my face from even the kind of gore on CW teen dramas. I don't actually like enjoy this style of music. I don't like watching the music video very much, and it's definitely not the most feminist or unproblematic thing I've ever seen.
On the other hand, from TFA:
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:54 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
Does this apply to use of the n-word? Because I think most Mefites would shred a white music star for using the n-word, but feelings would be different (and probably more varied and 'well, if this person has thought about it, then I, as a non-black person, recognize my opinions do not matter') on a black music star using it.
It makes no sense at all to evaluate expression without considering the identity of the person saying it. That goes for everyday words. It goes in doubly so for artistic expression. That goes triply when the artistic expression involves charged content.
I mean, I can't actually watch the music video all the way through because I have problems watching violence -- I have to hide my face from even the kind of gore on CW teen dramas. I don't actually like enjoy this style of music. I don't like watching the music video very much, and it's definitely not the most feminist or unproblematic thing I've ever seen.
On the other hand, from TFA:
So, when the Internet reacted acutely to her latest provocation—the “Bitch Better Have My Money” music video—I was prepared to be shocked; instead, I found myself more puzzled and intrigued by the over-the-top displays of violence and sexual spectacle. Keep in mind, however, that I’m watching a video conceptualized and co-directed by a black woman who is clearly invested in power for herself—as Rebecca Carroll noted—and I’m doing so after a volatile month in which black women’s victimization made headline news. When teenage girls like Dajerria Becton are violently assaulted by police for attending a pool party, how could I not relish seeing a smiling, bikini-clad Rihanna outwitting a clueless sheriff while hiding her kidnapped victim in the pool? And when cold-blooded white supremacists like Dylann Roof gun down African American churchgoers in Charleston, South Carolina—the majority of whom are black women—and families of the victims offer forgiveness to the killer, which is later interpreted by the wider public as necessary “racial healing,” how could I not appreciate Rihanna’s revenge fantasy against someone who did her wrong? This is a needed reminder that, while forgiveness is the higher virtue, sometimes we just want to vent our rage at injustice.Pretending that this music video should be discussed in exactly the same terms as if it were made by a white person, or a white dude? Yeah, no.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:54 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
This Week In Blackness had an interesting discussion of the song and video (starts around the 12-minute mark.) I kind of agree with the loose consensus they came to: there's definitely still problematic aspects to it; there's still something striking about her bootlegging what's generally a white/male fantasy; there's a bunch of pearl-clutching going on that doesn't get applied to works by people who are whiter and maler than Rihanna. Joss Whedon's works have a ton of problematic aspects, but people have no problem anointing him as the One True Feminist.
Like someone said upthread, it's an outlaw/revenge narrative, the kind that black women are rarely given the starring role in. Those narratives have a lot of problems, including using violence against women as a proxy to harm their romantic partners, and those problems are still evident in the video because Rihanna makes the choice to play the trope pretty straightforward, apart from swapping the optics of protagonist and villain. But, you know, I don't think Rihanna needs to Solve Feminism in every way every time she makes a video. Not least because even if she did, someone would find a way to nitpick the victory away from her.
posted by kagredon at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
Like someone said upthread, it's an outlaw/revenge narrative, the kind that black women are rarely given the starring role in. Those narratives have a lot of problems, including using violence against women as a proxy to harm their romantic partners, and those problems are still evident in the video because Rihanna makes the choice to play the trope pretty straightforward, apart from swapping the optics of protagonist and villain. But, you know, I don't think Rihanna needs to Solve Feminism in every way every time she makes a video. Not least because even if she did, someone would find a way to nitpick the victory away from her.
posted by kagredon at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
Joss Whedon's works have a ton of problematic aspects, but people have no problem anointing him as the One True Feminist
Joss Whedon's works have been subjected to endless feminist critique. And, sure, there are people who praise his works as "feminist"--just as there are people who attack them virulently as faux-feminist or as outright misogynist.
This whole "no one ever criticized a white male for being misogynist!" thing is truly bizarre: there would be barely a single days worth of posts on Metafilter that didn't refute it.
posted by yoink at 10:06 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Joss Whedon's works have been subjected to endless feminist critique. And, sure, there are people who praise his works as "feminist"--just as there are people who attack them virulently as faux-feminist or as outright misogynist.
This whole "no one ever criticized a white male for being misogynist!" thing is truly bizarre: there would be barely a single days worth of posts on Metafilter that didn't refute it.
posted by yoink at 10:06 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Joss Whedon's works have a ton of problematic aspects, but people have no problem anointing him as the One True Feminist.
Some people. Some wrong people. But, seriously, lots of people have no problem holding him up as literally "That Guy Everyone Thinks Is Feminist But He's Not Feminist (Also Waifs)", too.
This is all the same thing: if you like them, or identify with them, they're The Best Ever. Except that "[white/male/old] people do it too!" isn't actually a counter-argument, it's still not in any way actually criticizing a work based on what that work actually contains.
Wait though aren't there concrete economic reasons behind younger people having less money and time than older people? Whatever. I bet we're just bad and don't help people because we suck, as demonstrated by our selfish sucky music and bullshit feminism
Sorry for your ego, but both lower charitable/political contributions and voting numbers are demographic trends that are well-established and have nothing to do with relative age. That is, yes, relatively speaking older people are always going to have more time and more money, and in America at least it seems they will always vote more, but it's also well-established that Gen Xers and Millenials are giving less, too. You can establish that kind of thing despite a confounding context, that's how statistics work and how we know, for example, that lower income people are actually more likely to give away a larger porportion of their earnings to charity than middle income people.
I'm sure you've already attributed an age to me in order to better argue against me, but I'm probably younger than you've decided I must be based on my argument.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 10:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Some people. Some wrong people. But, seriously, lots of people have no problem holding him up as literally "That Guy Everyone Thinks Is Feminist But He's Not Feminist (Also Waifs)", too.
This is all the same thing: if you like them, or identify with them, they're The Best Ever. Except that "[white/male/old] people do it too!" isn't actually a counter-argument, it's still not in any way actually criticizing a work based on what that work actually contains.
Wait though aren't there concrete economic reasons behind younger people having less money and time than older people? Whatever. I bet we're just bad and don't help people because we suck, as demonstrated by our selfish sucky music and bullshit feminism
Sorry for your ego, but both lower charitable/political contributions and voting numbers are demographic trends that are well-established and have nothing to do with relative age. That is, yes, relatively speaking older people are always going to have more time and more money, and in America at least it seems they will always vote more, but it's also well-established that Gen Xers and Millenials are giving less, too. You can establish that kind of thing despite a confounding context, that's how statistics work and how we know, for example, that lower income people are actually more likely to give away a larger porportion of their earnings to charity than middle income people.
I'm sure you've already attributed an age to me in order to better argue against me, but I'm probably younger than you've decided I must be based on my argument.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 10:09 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
fine, we'll pretend for a moment that Joss Whedon threads on here don't inevitably degenerate into "but you're so meeeeeeaaaan, he's trying, don't criticize him or no one else will want to be a male feminist." Quentin Tarantino, then, who is maybe a more natural comparison to the video, anyway. Tarantino's built a career on pastiching hyperviolent narratives and styles, including ones that are violent towards women and black people. Now, look, I think Tarantino has put an immense amount of time and thought into what he's doing and that time and thought give his work worth, even if I think that there's also nonzero harm done in the way he interprets and reinforces some problematic dynamics. I think much the same about Rihanna's video. I don't see a lot of criticisms of QT's work that basically boil down to "but he didn't solve feminism forever." I see a ton of those for this video.
posted by kagredon at 10:13 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 10:13 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I continue to be hugely impressed by Rihanna, Nicki Minaj, Beyoncé and their peers. Society has roles we expect them to fill, words we expect them to say, and on and on, and their collective "fuck you, I'm going to be just as complicated as men are allowed to be" makes me so happy.
This video is unlikely to lead to more violence against women by women. I suspect it is likely to lead more (young) women to question some of the "givens" of their "role" in society, and go "what the fuck?". Even if it just plants seeds of doubt it's doing good work.
Art created by women that makes men uncomfortable (or invariably invokes an unthinking "white knight" response by said men) is a great thing. Art created by people of color that makes whites uncomfortable is a great thing. "Welcome to my world, motherfuckers."
posted by maxwelton at 10:16 AM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
This video is unlikely to lead to more violence against women by women. I suspect it is likely to lead more (young) women to question some of the "givens" of their "role" in society, and go "what the fuck?". Even if it just plants seeds of doubt it's doing good work.
Art created by women that makes men uncomfortable (or invariably invokes an unthinking "white knight" response by said men) is a great thing. Art created by people of color that makes whites uncomfortable is a great thing. "Welcome to my world, motherfuckers."
posted by maxwelton at 10:16 AM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
we'll pretend for a moment that Joss Whedon threads on here don't inevitably degenerate into "but you're so meeeeeeaaaan, he's trying, don't criticize him or no one else will want to be a male feminist."
You do realize, that if all Whedon threads "degenerate into "but you're so meeeeeeeeeaaan, he's trying, don't criticize him" etc. that means that he is routinely criticized.
And you do, also, realize that if Joss Whedon (someone many feminists do in fact admire and praise) is routinely criticized for failing to be feminist then the vast, vast majority of male artists who are less plausibly feminist than Whedon are held up to even more criticism. As, of course, they should be.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an argument about whether or not Rihanna's video is sexist. It's perfectly reasonable to offer your reasons why you think it isn't--why you think it subverts the tropes it's deploying and so forth. What isn't reasonable is the attempt to preemptively shut down the discussion by implying that it's somehow sexist/racist to even raise the issue ("no one ever asks if white males' work is sexist!").
posted by yoink at 10:23 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
You do realize, that if all Whedon threads "degenerate into "but you're so meeeeeeeeeaaan, he's trying, don't criticize him" etc. that means that he is routinely criticized.
And you do, also, realize that if Joss Whedon (someone many feminists do in fact admire and praise) is routinely criticized for failing to be feminist then the vast, vast majority of male artists who are less plausibly feminist than Whedon are held up to even more criticism. As, of course, they should be.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an argument about whether or not Rihanna's video is sexist. It's perfectly reasonable to offer your reasons why you think it isn't--why you think it subverts the tropes it's deploying and so forth. What isn't reasonable is the attempt to preemptively shut down the discussion by implying that it's somehow sexist/racist to even raise the issue ("no one ever asks if white males' work is sexist!").
posted by yoink at 10:23 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
My love for Rhianna just keeps growing, not least of all for how much she seems to raise hackles, mostly from men, which now apparently includes unironic charges of sexism (!!!), and just seems to give no fucks either way.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:30 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:30 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
culturally we critique women far more than men for their feminist bonafides, and we critique black women even more than that. the popular media isn't falling all over themselves to ask male celebrities if they're feminist or what they think the definition of feminism is. culturally we give many men a pass for being sexist women beating asses and then we throw men the biggest parade if they bring up on their own (because they're not being asked about it) that they think women are people.
to ignore the context that is larger than metafilter discussions seems so off base as to be disingenuous.
posted by nadawi at 10:31 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
to ignore the context that is larger than metafilter discussions seems so off base as to be disingenuous.
posted by nadawi at 10:31 AM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
it doesn't make it a bad thing either.
No, but broadly speaking I don't have a problem in saying that graphic depictions of the sexualized torture of women in order to sell products to consumers to make rich people even richer are, indeed, a bad thing.
posted by oliverburkeman at 11:47 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
No, but broadly speaking I don't have a problem in saying that graphic depictions of the sexualized torture of women in order to sell products to consumers to make rich people even richer are, indeed, a bad thing.
posted by oliverburkeman at 11:47 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Society has roles we expect them to fill, words we expect them to say, and on and on, and their collective "fuck you, I'm going to be just as complicated as men are allowed to be" makes me so happy.
It's Rihanna on a yacht yelling at her accountant.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 11:57 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's Rihanna on a yacht yelling at her accountant.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 11:57 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
not only did Rihanna not end the oppression of women, she also failed to overthrow the coercive system of capitalism and usher in a worker's paradise by making a music video. a cowardly failure indeed
posted by kagredon at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
What I always assume is that if you've been denied something that is culturally important, you're going to have to work through the issues about that thing before you can move on, even if that thing is kind of base and unworthy. So if you've always been broke, you probably need to work through a little bit about money before moving on to a zen-like indifference to wealth; you need to be secure in your ability to take care of yourself before you can let go of that stuff. If you're part of a group that's always been devalued and disempowered, maybe you need to work through some power fantasies before you can feel really comfortable moving on to a critique of power. I think there's an emotional risk in this; obviously you can get pulled in to the fantasies and never get anywhere else. (As, for example, when queer folks get sucked into fantasies of participating in nationalism and the military to the point where we really think those things are good as long as they're available to us.)
But I think it's also pretty obvious that if you haven't had access to the things that society values (even if those things are shitty) it can be really powerful and important to start to have access to those things.
I also think that it's very, very uncomfortable for white people in general to accept that we're hated [in our role as white people] and that the hatred has deep, historical, legitimate roots. For me, when I consider how legitimate and deep-rooted black anger is - for instance - that's really scary and sad. It's a wound in the world that I can't fix - I am caught up in this historical process that I didn't start and won't see the finish of, my very existence is based on wronging others, those others are aware of this and they're angry. When I'm confronted with evidence of this anger, I can't ignore it or pretend that things can easily be smoothed over. It makes me afraid, actually, and it forces me to split myself between my everyday self that does everyday things and another self which recognizes that [again, in my role as a white person, not as Frowner-the-individual] I don't deserve anything better than the white lady's fate in the video. It's a kind of permanent cognitive dissonance which is, I think, a feature of whiteness - "white guilt" is foundational to whiteness, although we all handle it differently.
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on July 9, 2015 [30 favorites]
But I think it's also pretty obvious that if you haven't had access to the things that society values (even if those things are shitty) it can be really powerful and important to start to have access to those things.
I also think that it's very, very uncomfortable for white people in general to accept that we're hated [in our role as white people] and that the hatred has deep, historical, legitimate roots. For me, when I consider how legitimate and deep-rooted black anger is - for instance - that's really scary and sad. It's a wound in the world that I can't fix - I am caught up in this historical process that I didn't start and won't see the finish of, my very existence is based on wronging others, those others are aware of this and they're angry. When I'm confronted with evidence of this anger, I can't ignore it or pretend that things can easily be smoothed over. It makes me afraid, actually, and it forces me to split myself between my everyday self that does everyday things and another self which recognizes that [again, in my role as a white person, not as Frowner-the-individual] I don't deserve anything better than the white lady's fate in the video. It's a kind of permanent cognitive dissonance which is, I think, a feature of whiteness - "white guilt" is foundational to whiteness, although we all handle it differently.
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on July 9, 2015 [30 favorites]
not only did Rihanna not end the oppression of women, she also failed to overthrow the coercive system of capitalism and usher in a worker's paradise by making a music video. a cowardly failure indeed
Has anyone claimed this, anywhere? All I can see is people voicing their opinion that the video is a bad thing, for various reasons that really shouldn't be hard to grasp whether you agree or not. This is completely different from saying that she had a responsibility to produce a good thing. (The purpose of this video is to make as much money as possible for an artist and some corporations; it would be pretty weird if it undermined capitalism.)
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:10 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Has anyone claimed this, anywhere? All I can see is people voicing their opinion that the video is a bad thing, for various reasons that really shouldn't be hard to grasp whether you agree or not. This is completely different from saying that she had a responsibility to produce a good thing. (The purpose of this video is to make as much money as possible for an artist and some corporations; it would be pretty weird if it undermined capitalism.)
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:10 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
There's a thread in this discussion about how the music video should be evaluated independently of the fact that it was made by a black woman.
And the more I think about it, the ability to take that position feels more and more like something that's said mostly by white people -- I don't know if it always is, and other people have very different experiences of race in America, but I'm East Asian, and being not-white shapes every day of my life. It's the first thing people notice about me. When people describe me, 99.999% of the time, it's the first thing out of the gate. Then my gender. Then, last, if it all, something about what I actually do or think or feel. I'm the Chinese-American lady who _______________.
Consequently, asking me to stop looking at something in its racial context, or to pretend the race-related facts about something are other than they are, is this weird sort of exercise in imagination that is at odds with the rest of my life.
And I have it comparatively easy, as an educated, economically privileged professional. Generally, too, as a so-called model minority, East Asians in America over the past 30 years or so have faced much less violence and social bullshit than black Americans. I deal with assumptions that I'm submissive and docile and like anime, plus the occasional joke-not-joke about eating dogs, or the compliment-not-compliment about how I don't have an accent. I never have to worry about my father getting shot after being pulled over for driving a car that's better than he deserves. My little sister can wear a bikini and go to pool parties and if the police show up, she isn't afraid she might get beaten if she isn't perfectly compliant.
So yeah. I don't know if other POC feel that way, and I don't presume to speak for them, especially black people. But I've been thinking all afternoon about why all the YOU'D BE FURIOUS IF THIS WERE A WHITE DUDE!!!!! comments get under my skin so much. And that's the best I can put it.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:20 PM on July 9, 2015 [23 favorites]
And the more I think about it, the ability to take that position feels more and more like something that's said mostly by white people -- I don't know if it always is, and other people have very different experiences of race in America, but I'm East Asian, and being not-white shapes every day of my life. It's the first thing people notice about me. When people describe me, 99.999% of the time, it's the first thing out of the gate. Then my gender. Then, last, if it all, something about what I actually do or think or feel. I'm the Chinese-American lady who _______________.
Consequently, asking me to stop looking at something in its racial context, or to pretend the race-related facts about something are other than they are, is this weird sort of exercise in imagination that is at odds with the rest of my life.
And I have it comparatively easy, as an educated, economically privileged professional. Generally, too, as a so-called model minority, East Asians in America over the past 30 years or so have faced much less violence and social bullshit than black Americans. I deal with assumptions that I'm submissive and docile and like anime, plus the occasional joke-not-joke about eating dogs, or the compliment-not-compliment about how I don't have an accent. I never have to worry about my father getting shot after being pulled over for driving a car that's better than he deserves. My little sister can wear a bikini and go to pool parties and if the police show up, she isn't afraid she might get beaten if she isn't perfectly compliant.
So yeah. I don't know if other POC feel that way, and I don't presume to speak for them, especially black people. But I've been thinking all afternoon about why all the YOU'D BE FURIOUS IF THIS WERE A WHITE DUDE!!!!! comments get under my skin so much. And that's the best I can put it.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:20 PM on July 9, 2015 [23 favorites]
there's a bunch of pearl-clutching going on that doesn't get applied to works by people who are whiter and maler than Rihanna.
I must have imagined the whole Blurred Lines fiasco then.
posted by Summer at 1:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
I must have imagined the whole Blurred Lines fiasco then.
posted by Summer at 1:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Look, the thing is that of course certain specific works by white dudes get called out as sexist or racist. But there's so much more work by white dudes that doesn't get called out, and it has to be so much more egregious to get called out - seriously, there are umpteen billion squillon movies and videos where women get treated violently for the pleasure of the viewer, many of them less "this is not actually that realistic" than the Rihanna video.
Now, for me, sometimes I criticize someone who I view as acceptable while not bothering to criticize someone I view as useless and awful - I wouldn't really even care what's in some Tarantino movie because that's an expense of spirit in a waste of shame. And I do think that's at least a little bit what goes on here, that people think that Rihanna is very good actually and so they're upset when she produces something they think problematic. But that doesn't mean it's a sensible reaction.
posted by Frowner at 1:36 PM on July 9, 2015
Now, for me, sometimes I criticize someone who I view as acceptable while not bothering to criticize someone I view as useless and awful - I wouldn't really even care what's in some Tarantino movie because that's an expense of spirit in a waste of shame. And I do think that's at least a little bit what goes on here, that people think that Rihanna is very good actually and so they're upset when she produces something they think problematic. But that doesn't mean it's a sensible reaction.
posted by Frowner at 1:36 PM on July 9, 2015
there's a bunch of pearl-clutching going on
And how about not using misogynistic language? This whole thing has really unleashed a lot of woman hating tropes that now are apparently OK because it's white women.
posted by Summer at 1:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
And how about not using misogynistic language? This whole thing has really unleashed a lot of woman hating tropes that now are apparently OK because it's white women.
posted by Summer at 1:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
"[I]t is her flipping of masculinist scripts"
I don't think she flipped the script so much insert herself in place of the usual white male lead. Flipping the script would've lead to Mads Mikkelsen hanging upside down, naked, with his dick flopping around, and existing to be the leverage item.
It's an interesting video, I'm glad I watched it, but I don't really need to see any more women subjected to sexualized violence in any media, ever.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
I don't think she flipped the script so much insert herself in place of the usual white male lead. Flipping the script would've lead to Mads Mikkelsen hanging upside down, naked, with his dick flopping around, and existing to be the leverage item.
It's an interesting video, I'm glad I watched it, but I don't really need to see any more women subjected to sexualized violence in any media, ever.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
No, the reason Tarantino isn't discussed in the same terms is because he's making adult films for an adult audience while Rihanna is making a pop video aimed at kids, the same with Blurred Lines.
Tarantino doesn't get a pass from me though, for what it's worth. From Dusk Till Dawn has some of the most casually dismissed sexual violence I've seen in film and I don't really understand how it didn't cause an outrage at the time.
posted by Summer at 1:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tarantino doesn't get a pass from me though, for what it's worth. From Dusk Till Dawn has some of the most casually dismissed sexual violence I've seen in film and I don't really understand how it didn't cause an outrage at the time.
posted by Summer at 1:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
rihanna has been very clear that she in no way sees herself as a role model for kids and lots of kids watch tarantino movies. i do agree we hold women pop stars up as caretakers to kids far more readily than we do male directors though.
posted by nadawi at 1:44 PM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:44 PM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
i also think in the context of white women's tears, and discussing intersectional vs mainstream/white feminism, pearl clutching is a different sort of phrase than it is when used by men against all women. but i also think it's hard for most people to get to that sort of nuance so i personally choose to not use it in that way.
posted by nadawi at 1:46 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 1:46 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a strange selectivity when it comes to calls for more context, though. The racial context is important, but so is the context of the history of misogynistic screen violence; the context in which this is a corporate-backed multimillionaire marketing a product; the context of the cinematic tropes about using the punishment of women to hurt men discussed in Helen Lewis's piece; etcetera etcetera etcetera. I can't see any good reason to focus only on the context(s) in which this video challenges orthodoxies and reactionary societal prejudices, while ignoring all the ones it recapitulates or reinforces.
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:58 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:58 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
the articles in the fpp that think the racial context is important in no way seem to ignore the tropes about using the punishment of women to hurt men, they just think (and i agree) that when you add the racial aspect and specifically using the type of white woman that rachel roberts is portrayed as, there's a change to the trope, one that isn't easily pushed aside to get back to just dismissing this whole cloth as misogynistic.
and besides, if we're going to get serious about examining sexualized violence against women, nearly every crime of the week show on network tv should be first in line for critique long before we get to anything that rihanna has done in her art.
posted by nadawi at 2:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
and besides, if we're going to get serious about examining sexualized violence against women, nearly every crime of the week show on network tv should be first in line for critique long before we get to anything that rihanna has done in her art.
posted by nadawi at 2:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
This whole thing has really unleashed a lot of woman hating tropes that now are apparently OK because it's white women.
I know it's been contentious on Metafilter before, but I'm okay with the term mansplaining because it accurately and concisely describes a particular flavor of societal behavior based on stupid ideas about women. Similarly, I'm okay with the term pearl-clutching because it accurately and concisely describes a particular flavor of societal bullshit that I've seen almost exclusively among economically privileged women who genuinely think of themselves as feminist, but like to play judgey judgey not-feminist-enough, respect-yourself, how-dare-you-let-all-women-everywhere-down against any women who fail to come up to their personal standards.
I don't necessarily read pearl-clutching as having a racial component, though about 95% of the time that I personally see it, it's white women judging the hell out of POC women. If people want to extend pearl-clutching to men who engage in the same activity, though, I'm fine with that. Pearls for everyone! Break down the idea that pearls are only for women!
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I know it's been contentious on Metafilter before, but I'm okay with the term mansplaining because it accurately and concisely describes a particular flavor of societal behavior based on stupid ideas about women. Similarly, I'm okay with the term pearl-clutching because it accurately and concisely describes a particular flavor of societal bullshit that I've seen almost exclusively among economically privileged women who genuinely think of themselves as feminist, but like to play judgey judgey not-feminist-enough, respect-yourself, how-dare-you-let-all-women-everywhere-down against any women who fail to come up to their personal standards.
I don't necessarily read pearl-clutching as having a racial component, though about 95% of the time that I personally see it, it's white women judging the hell out of POC women. If people want to extend pearl-clutching to men who engage in the same activity, though, I'm fine with that. Pearls for everyone! Break down the idea that pearls are only for women!
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
they just think (and i agree) that when you add the racial aspect and specifically using the type of white woman that rachel roberts is portrayed as, there's a change to the trope
Can you describe what "type" that is?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:06 PM on July 9, 2015
Can you describe what "type" that is?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:06 PM on July 9, 2015
sure - rich white woman benefiting from the white man's crimes against a black woman, seemingly so unconcerned and unaware of where the money comes from that she doesn't even recognize her husband's victim in the elevator.
these excerpts posted by joyceanmachine do a good job of describing some of that too.
posted by nadawi at 2:10 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
these excerpts posted by joyceanmachine do a good job of describing some of that too.
posted by nadawi at 2:10 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
every crime of the week show on network tv should be first in line for critique long before we get to anything that rihanna has done in her art
I totally confess to being disproportionately engaged in this discussion compared to all those other potential discussions. But that's because it's in this kind of discussion that feminist colleagues and writers I admire get told by putatively left-wing people to shut up and eat cookies instead of expressing their entirely reasonable views. Whereas when Tarantino puts out another shit violent movie, or there's another voyeuristic network TV murder show, everyone in my political neck of the woods all basically agree with each other, so there's less to say. I'm not necessarily proud of this since of course one should also critique all those other things plenty, but FWIW, it's a reason for the disproportionate focus on this video that doesn't depend on racism for its explanation.
posted by oliverburkeman at 2:12 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I totally confess to being disproportionately engaged in this discussion compared to all those other potential discussions. But that's because it's in this kind of discussion that feminist colleagues and writers I admire get told by putatively left-wing people to shut up and eat cookies instead of expressing their entirely reasonable views. Whereas when Tarantino puts out another shit violent movie, or there's another voyeuristic network TV murder show, everyone in my political neck of the woods all basically agree with each other, so there's less to say. I'm not necessarily proud of this since of course one should also critique all those other things plenty, but FWIW, it's a reason for the disproportionate focus on this video that doesn't depend on racism for its explanation.
posted by oliverburkeman at 2:12 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
you have twice now made a false distinction of "left-wing people" and "feminists" instead of what it really is, which is feminists disagreeing with each other. hell, the woman who said the cookie thing? her website is hood feminism. and if you scroll back to july 1st she had a lot more to say about rihanna and the video and the white reaction to it that isn't easily condensed to "shut up and eat a cookie."
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
There's a strange selectivity when it comes to calls for more context, though. The racial context is important, but so is the context of the history of misogynistic screen violence; the context in which this is a corporate-backed multimillionaire marketing a product; the context of the cinematic tropes about using the punishment of women to hurt men discussed in Helen Lewis's piece; etcetera etcetera etcetera. I can't see any good reason to focus only on the context(s) in which this video challenges orthodoxies and reactionary societal prejudices, while ignoring all the ones it recapitulates or reinforces..
It's true that there's a horizon to this kind of video. Rihanna wouldn't make and probably wouldn't be allowed to make a video that showed her, for instance, assassinating a David Cameron-alike for his crimes against British youth of color. Or even a video showing her kidnapping and torturing a Samatha Sheffield-alike as a way of getting at the same, or a Thatcher figure (consider all the trouble that Hillary Mantel got into for that short story about an assassination attempt on Thatcher, and she's white, older and in no way as popular as Rihanna.) There's a limit to the kind of critique that can be raised.
This one can be read as very individualistic (that's not the only reading but it's certainly the most literal one) and very much in support of the whole economic system (which is itself racist and which props up all the other aspects of racism) and still revolves around sexual titillation (I've never gotten the whole "she's naked but she's covered in fake blood and acting stroppy, no one is ever titillated by stuff like that" business).
And I think there's a structural issue for at least some feminists - many of us don't watch random music videos. So it's quite possible for there to be many, many awful videos that I don't even know exist, whereas I have a loose sense of what Rihanna is up to, so I'm more likely on that level to critique her videos just because they're the ones I know about.
But at the same time, if we're doing anything more than Being Outraged For The Sake Of It, surely we have to admit that starting a critique of violence and materialism with Rihanna is just going to play into the usual "everything is fine except for those awful Black women" business. It's not a sensible starting point, because Rihanna's work has to be read more complexly than that, and it's also not a politically effective starting point because Rihanna's work certainly isn't the core of the problem, even when we're just talking about artistic production.
posted by Frowner at 2:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's true that there's a horizon to this kind of video. Rihanna wouldn't make and probably wouldn't be allowed to make a video that showed her, for instance, assassinating a David Cameron-alike for his crimes against British youth of color. Or even a video showing her kidnapping and torturing a Samatha Sheffield-alike as a way of getting at the same, or a Thatcher figure (consider all the trouble that Hillary Mantel got into for that short story about an assassination attempt on Thatcher, and she's white, older and in no way as popular as Rihanna.) There's a limit to the kind of critique that can be raised.
This one can be read as very individualistic (that's not the only reading but it's certainly the most literal one) and very much in support of the whole economic system (which is itself racist and which props up all the other aspects of racism) and still revolves around sexual titillation (I've never gotten the whole "she's naked but she's covered in fake blood and acting stroppy, no one is ever titillated by stuff like that" business).
And I think there's a structural issue for at least some feminists - many of us don't watch random music videos. So it's quite possible for there to be many, many awful videos that I don't even know exist, whereas I have a loose sense of what Rihanna is up to, so I'm more likely on that level to critique her videos just because they're the ones I know about.
But at the same time, if we're doing anything more than Being Outraged For The Sake Of It, surely we have to admit that starting a critique of violence and materialism with Rihanna is just going to play into the usual "everything is fine except for those awful Black women" business. It's not a sensible starting point, because Rihanna's work has to be read more complexly than that, and it's also not a politically effective starting point because Rihanna's work certainly isn't the core of the problem, even when we're just talking about artistic production.
posted by Frowner at 2:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Rihanna is making a pop video aimed at kids
The hell?
posted by kmz at 2:26 PM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
The hell?
posted by kmz at 2:26 PM on July 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
a false distinction of "left-wing people" and "feminists"
Oh, sorry, that wasn't my intent; the latter are surely largely a subsection of the former. My point is that it is not very left-wing to tell feminists to shut up. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's right-wing politics had led them to that; it is more disappointing when people of the left end up in that place.
posted by oliverburkeman at 2:29 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, sorry, that wasn't my intent; the latter are surely largely a subsection of the former. My point is that it is not very left-wing to tell feminists to shut up. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's right-wing politics had led them to that; it is more disappointing when people of the left end up in that place.
posted by oliverburkeman at 2:29 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Another thing - we white viewers might start trusting that Black artists are complex and smart. Historically, there have been lots of black artists who either wished they could have said more direct and complicated things or were punished for speaking out (Eartha Kitt, Paul Robeson, lots of rappers in the 80s, etc). Instead of starting from "wow, Rihanna is sure failing to articulate a better critique, that must be because she is a bad feminist and greedy with it", maybe we could start by wondering whether it's difficult to operate as a Black artist in the political confines that you face. Maybe it's hard to make choices about what you want to say because you're way more constrained than a comparable white artist.
The fact that this video is what Rihanna can say tells us a lot about the horizon of what is expressible by Black artists like her.
posted by Frowner at 2:31 PM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
The fact that this video is what Rihanna can say tells us a lot about the horizon of what is expressible by Black artists like her.
posted by Frowner at 2:31 PM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
i don't think black feminists critiquing the way white feminists are reacting is born by right wing politics and i frankly find it offensive to suggest it. i also think you continue to take one tweet completely out of its larger context as a way to berate a black feminist for not doing feminism right.
posted by nadawi at 2:34 PM on July 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:34 PM on July 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
Forgive me for thinking out loud here, but it strikes me that there's a sort of structural hostility to marginalized artists in the type of critique that is on display here - and I acknowledge that it's a kind of critique that I engage in a lot.
Basically, it assumes bad faith and naivete on the part of the artist, and totally ignores the artist as a person who has a real vision and is trying to navigate constraints.
Like, Beyonce basically had to be rich enough to buy her own country before she could call herself a feminist.
I think it's legit to look at the constraints on an artist and the horizon of what can be said, but I don't think it's especially helpful to critique an artist from a marginalized group in the really personal moral-failure kind of way that one usually sees.
I also think that this type of critique tends to rush to judgment rather than start with a careful unpacking of the work in question, and it tends to seek one "victorious" reading of the work which should be taken to overwrite all others. If you are privileged in relation to someone, starting a critique of their work before carefully unpacking it seems particularly dangerous, since it will be extremely easy for you to misread it. Basically it seems like people are trying to force a reading of this video which is more simplistic than the video itself, merely because that allows us to assume that Rihanna is naive or a bad feminist.
posted by Frowner at 2:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Basically, it assumes bad faith and naivete on the part of the artist, and totally ignores the artist as a person who has a real vision and is trying to navigate constraints.
Like, Beyonce basically had to be rich enough to buy her own country before she could call herself a feminist.
I think it's legit to look at the constraints on an artist and the horizon of what can be said, but I don't think it's especially helpful to critique an artist from a marginalized group in the really personal moral-failure kind of way that one usually sees.
I also think that this type of critique tends to rush to judgment rather than start with a careful unpacking of the work in question, and it tends to seek one "victorious" reading of the work which should be taken to overwrite all others. If you are privileged in relation to someone, starting a critique of their work before carefully unpacking it seems particularly dangerous, since it will be extremely easy for you to misread it. Basically it seems like people are trying to force a reading of this video which is more simplistic than the video itself, merely because that allows us to assume that Rihanna is naive or a bad feminist.
posted by Frowner at 2:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
born by right wing politics
Your interpretations of my comments are so baffling to me that further discussion probably isn't useful. (This of course might be my fault.) Anyway, my only points in this thread have been a) that in my opinion, fewer music videos portraying gleeful violence against women are better than more such videos; and b) that even if you disagree, which of course you can do, this utterly standard leftwing view ought not to be one that is met among other leftwing people with scorn, abuse or demands to shut up, accusations of "pearl-clutching" etc, but instead with debate. That's all!
posted by oliverburkeman at 4:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Your interpretations of my comments are so baffling to me that further discussion probably isn't useful. (This of course might be my fault.) Anyway, my only points in this thread have been a) that in my opinion, fewer music videos portraying gleeful violence against women are better than more such videos; and b) that even if you disagree, which of course you can do, this utterly standard leftwing view ought not to be one that is met among other leftwing people with scorn, abuse or demands to shut up, accusations of "pearl-clutching" etc, but instead with debate. That's all!
posted by oliverburkeman at 4:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
(This of course might be my fault.)
nadawi isn't the only one who read your comment that way. I did, too, with an extra side dish of you implying that liberal black feminists offering up analysis and responses based on their personal experiences with racism, particularly the way that American society specifically treats black women and the messages that its media generates, were "disappointing" to you. It was a pretty natural reading, and it was also pretty offensive.
this utterly standard leftwing view ought not to be one that is met among other leftwing people with scorn, abuse or demands to shut up, accusations of "pearl-clutching" etc
I dispute that the positions you're advancing are "utterly standard leftwing view", unless you're taking the position that being dismissive of the opinions of black people/the discussion of race in media analysis to be an "utterly standard leftwing view. Which, to be honest, it does happen a lot.
Further, I dispute that any kind of equivalency can be drawn between abusive language, a very pro-BBHMM roundtable by Pitchfork, a tweet by a black feminist where, even when taken out of context, a very reasonable reading is that she's saying that not every piece of media is meant to satisfy or entertain white people, and people pointing out that a lot of the backlash against this video comes from privileged women who are outraged, outraged, that a woman who does not share their racial or socioeconomic or cultural background or social goals or anything, really, might make something they find unappealing.
In the name of full disclosure, I did not read much of the "abuse" link. Sorry, but being told you're white and a racist doesn't count as abuse. Some of the other things mentioned in that initial blurb do (like the word that apparently came after "white racist"), but anytime an article in a Murdoch paper leads with how terrible, how AWFUL it is for white people to be called racist?
Nah.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
nadawi isn't the only one who read your comment that way. I did, too, with an extra side dish of you implying that liberal black feminists offering up analysis and responses based on their personal experiences with racism, particularly the way that American society specifically treats black women and the messages that its media generates, were "disappointing" to you. It was a pretty natural reading, and it was also pretty offensive.
this utterly standard leftwing view ought not to be one that is met among other leftwing people with scorn, abuse or demands to shut up, accusations of "pearl-clutching" etc
I dispute that the positions you're advancing are "utterly standard leftwing view", unless you're taking the position that being dismissive of the opinions of black people/the discussion of race in media analysis to be an "utterly standard leftwing view. Which, to be honest, it does happen a lot.
Further, I dispute that any kind of equivalency can be drawn between abusive language, a very pro-BBHMM roundtable by Pitchfork, a tweet by a black feminist where, even when taken out of context, a very reasonable reading is that she's saying that not every piece of media is meant to satisfy or entertain white people, and people pointing out that a lot of the backlash against this video comes from privileged women who are outraged, outraged, that a woman who does not share their racial or socioeconomic or cultural background or social goals or anything, really, might make something they find unappealing.
In the name of full disclosure, I did not read much of the "abuse" link. Sorry, but being told you're white and a racist doesn't count as abuse. Some of the other things mentioned in that initial blurb do (like the word that apparently came after "white racist"), but anytime an article in a Murdoch paper leads with how terrible, how AWFUL it is for white people to be called racist?
Nah.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
In the name of full disclosure, I did not read much of the "abuse" link. Sorry, but being told you're white and a racist doesn't count as abuse. Some of the other things mentioned in that initial blurb do (like the word that apparently came after "white racist"), but anytime an article in a Murdoch paper leads with how terrible, how AWFUL it is for white people to be called racist?
You really ought to get in the habit of actually reading stuff before you comment on it, then. To wit:
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:46 PM on July 9, 2015
You really ought to get in the habit of actually reading stuff before you comment on it, then. To wit:
"On Friday I was called a “white racist bitch”, a “cracker”, told to go raise the confederate flag, to “eat c**ks”, that I ought to shut up and/or die (countless times) and to swallow broken glass."That's indistinguishable from Gamergaters. It's not okay just because it's a bunch of black women doing it to white women.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:46 PM on July 9, 2015
That's indistinguishable from Gamergaters
Ugh. That's kind of gross
posted by timelord at 9:12 PM on July 9, 2015
Ugh. That's kind of gross
posted by timelord at 9:12 PM on July 9, 2015
Actually, no, that's pretty distinguishable from Gamergate, because it didn't come along with death threats, a massive harassment campaign or getting someone fired and driven out of their industry. It's just bog standard Twitter discourse. Lord knows it's not elevated, but frankly I could go on tumblr and talk about how I felt that Captain America slash fiction was a terrible idea or make an assertion about the gender of the gems on Steven Universe and get a very similar though non-racially specific set of responses. (Also I would suggest that people who are really truly upset over being called crackers need to recalibrate their upsetometers; it's like the racial equivalent of "douche".)
Being moderately nasty to each other on the internet is hardly worthy of remark most of the time, but if it's Black women (or their friends) then people find it very easy to handwring. I am perfectly willing to concede that at least some people are unconscious of the degree to which they hold Black women to a different standard than everyone else, but people do it all the time and we should stop when we notice it.
(In reality I have no opinion about Captain America slash fiction and have never watched Steven Universe.)
posted by Frowner at 9:13 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Being moderately nasty to each other on the internet is hardly worthy of remark most of the time, but if it's Black women (or their friends) then people find it very easy to handwring. I am perfectly willing to concede that at least some people are unconscious of the degree to which they hold Black women to a different standard than everyone else, but people do it all the time and we should stop when we notice it.
(In reality I have no opinion about Captain America slash fiction and have never watched Steven Universe.)
posted by Frowner at 9:13 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
I mean it sounds like the author of the Times piece did receive some abuse but I really don't like the comparison
posted by timelord at 9:14 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by timelord at 9:14 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
You really ought to get in the habit of actually reading stuff before you comment on it, then.
The article is behind a paywall. You might want to provide the text before asking others to take it into account.
posted by Lexica at 9:17 PM on July 9, 2015
The article is behind a paywall. You might want to provide the text before asking others to take it into account.
posted by Lexica at 9:17 PM on July 9, 2015
so because some people were assholes about it, we have to talk about that and not about the video. great. awesome. hell, let's blame rihanna for the fact that those folks were assholes. it makes just about as much sense as anything else in here.
posted by kagredon at 9:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 9:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ugh. That's kind of gross
It's extremely gross to dismiss the fact that the woman in the article was told to eat ground glass or act like it's somehow okay because of her identity or the identity of the people telling her to eat ground glass.
The article is behind a paywall. You might want to provide the text before asking others to take it into account.
The bit I quoted wasn't behind a paywall. It's from the first paragraph, before the cut. But even if so, it doesn't invalidate the point: people need to stop forming opinions of things they haven't read because of a proxy decision about identity politics. That's disengenuous bullshit. It's not unreasonable to expect people should either read the damn article or refrain from commenting on it.
so because some people were assholes about it, we have to talk about that and not about the video.
Well, since the OP itself is about the criticism of the video and the discussion of the video, and certainly the direction the thread has taken, and not so much the video itself, and a whole bunch of people have come out with a bunch of shitty derailing attempts that boil down to "any criticism of this is invalid because reasons", yeah, I do think it's fair to talk about it. I certainly don't think "ugh, do we have to talk about this" is anything other than a pre-emptive attempt at derailing by, ironically enough, using derailing as an excuse.
And once again, no one is actually blaming Rihanna for anything or has blamed her for anything.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 9:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's extremely gross to dismiss the fact that the woman in the article was told to eat ground glass or act like it's somehow okay because of her identity or the identity of the people telling her to eat ground glass.
The article is behind a paywall. You might want to provide the text before asking others to take it into account.
The bit I quoted wasn't behind a paywall. It's from the first paragraph, before the cut. But even if so, it doesn't invalidate the point: people need to stop forming opinions of things they haven't read because of a proxy decision about identity politics. That's disengenuous bullshit. It's not unreasonable to expect people should either read the damn article or refrain from commenting on it.
so because some people were assholes about it, we have to talk about that and not about the video.
Well, since the OP itself is about the criticism of the video and the discussion of the video, and certainly the direction the thread has taken, and not so much the video itself, and a whole bunch of people have come out with a bunch of shitty derailing attempts that boil down to "any criticism of this is invalid because reasons", yeah, I do think it's fair to talk about it. I certainly don't think "ugh, do we have to talk about this" is anything other than a pre-emptive attempt at derailing by, ironically enough, using derailing as an excuse.
And once again, no one is actually blaming Rihanna for anything or has blamed her for anything.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 9:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Did you read the part literally immediately after that where I said in my comment that some of the other stuff in that blurb did count as abuse? Apparently no! Or the other part in my comment where I straight-up have a general description of all of that conduct referred to in the article as abuse? Ah, the irony of trying to talk shit about someone not reading -- and then failing to read yourself.
Also, I stand by the utter dog whistle shittiness of thinking that being called "white racist" is comparable with the other things in that blurb, particularly because people get angry about being called "white racist ______", there is a strong component of part of the outrage is HOW DARE YOU, LIKELY NONWHITE PERSON, IMPLICITLY CRITICIZE MY WHITENESS AND SAY I AM A BAD PERSON
So yeah, a terrible way to start a piece about complicated racially-related issues.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:52 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also, I stand by the utter dog whistle shittiness of thinking that being called "white racist" is comparable with the other things in that blurb, particularly because people get angry about being called "white racist ______", there is a strong component of part of the outrage is HOW DARE YOU, LIKELY NONWHITE PERSON, IMPLICITLY CRITICIZE MY WHITENESS AND SAY I AM A BAD PERSON
So yeah, a terrible way to start a piece about complicated racially-related issues.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:52 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted: please don't call other Mefites assholes.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 5:45 AM on July 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 5:45 AM on July 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
honestly, I have no idea why some people can't deal with feminists disagreeing with each other and feel the need to paint huge swaths of the discussion as narcissistic, "gamergate", whatever.
Yeah, sorry, telling someone to swallow broken glass and chug cocks because she criticized a video isn't "having multiple points of view". That's disengenuous as hell, as is whipping out "pointing out someone white isn't offensive and you shouldn't clutch your pearls over it, also zomg News Corp!". Well, no, not in a vacuum, and certainly there are white people who get offended if you so much as mention it, but when it comes as part of calling someone a "white racist bitch" then yes, that's an insult and abusive and it's perfectly reasonable to be offended by the whole thing. It's also insulting to call people racists if they're not racists, I don't really understand the tortured logic behind that. Yes, some people will take offense to the degree that they stop listening to everything else, but it's still an insult to most people. It should be, and it's a good thing that it is.
None of the people defending this shit kind of shit as "not abuse" or "things it is okay to say to people who publically criticized Rihanna's video" are being particularly reasonable or intelligent about it. I have no idea why you feel the need to defend that nonsense, but there's nothing feminist about it either way.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:41 AM on July 10, 2015
Yeah, sorry, telling someone to swallow broken glass and chug cocks because she criticized a video isn't "having multiple points of view". That's disengenuous as hell, as is whipping out "pointing out someone white isn't offensive and you shouldn't clutch your pearls over it, also zomg News Corp!". Well, no, not in a vacuum, and certainly there are white people who get offended if you so much as mention it, but when it comes as part of calling someone a "white racist bitch" then yes, that's an insult and abusive and it's perfectly reasonable to be offended by the whole thing. It's also insulting to call people racists if they're not racists, I don't really understand the tortured logic behind that. Yes, some people will take offense to the degree that they stop listening to everything else, but it's still an insult to most people. It should be, and it's a good thing that it is.
None of the people defending this shit kind of shit as "not abuse" or "things it is okay to say to people who publically criticized Rihanna's video" are being particularly reasonable or intelligent about it. I have no idea why you feel the need to defend that nonsense, but there's nothing feminist about it either way.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:41 AM on July 10, 2015
Literally no one ia defending the behavior. They are talking about it proportionately. Something that would be great for you to do, too, but I see you're on a tear here so whatever.
Jesus what an ugly fucking thread.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:23 AM on July 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Jesus what an ugly fucking thread.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:23 AM on July 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Literally no one ia defending the behavior. They are talking about it proportionately. Something that would be great for you to do, too, but I see you're on a tear here so whatever.
Here's nadawi using the "taken out of context" argument to defend a tweet I'm sure she'd never in a million years deem to be okay in any other context. Here is joyceanmachine trying to pretend that because the author of a an article critical of BBHMM received abuse including the phrase "white racist bitch", that it was all just a white lady getting mad she was told she was white. Here is timelord making an outrage-based, content free dismissal of my comparison to the kind of abuse directed at Janice Turner to Gamergate, despite the fact that yes, telling women to chug cocks is exactly the kind of thing that Gamergates do to women. Here is kagredon not actually defending the abuse per se but making a very stupid and obnoxious straw man argument that's fairly similar and pretty much intentionally trying to create a climate where any criticism of the video on feminist grounds is a total non-starter. And of course now ifds,sn9 riding to the rescue with a fatuous comment about Stormfront commenters.
Yeah, sorry, minimizing this behavior and re-characterizing it as something it isn't is a form of defense. I'm damn sure none of the people doing it would tolerate it in a different context, and there would be a lot of tsk-tsk'ing over that level of parsing what is and isn't abuse. "It's just fringe trolls, they don't really count as part of ~our movement~" is not actually a legitimate argument, and in fact to use GG as an example, the MeFi Feminist Hivemind doesn't accept it in that context other.
The original article is a GREAT, WELL-THOUGHT-THROUGH, CRITICAL PIECE. It is not any of these things you are trying to characterize it (and the resulting discussion) as. It's not a vapid narcissistic thinkpiece. It's not allied with these horrible people that you're quoting. I wish you would dial down the rhetoric and/or actually engage with the original article, because it's interesting and nuanced.
I did read it, and you're wrong: it is "allied" with the horrible people I'm quoting, in as much as it's making a lot of the same arguments in more academic language. Yes, it's a good piece and it has a lot of great analysis, but it's still making the argument that essentially boils down to "direct critique of the misogyny and violence in the video is wrong because it's done in a black-on-white context", just in fancier, more academic language:
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 10:36 AM on July 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here's nadawi using the "taken out of context" argument to defend a tweet I'm sure she'd never in a million years deem to be okay in any other context. Here is joyceanmachine trying to pretend that because the author of a an article critical of BBHMM received abuse including the phrase "white racist bitch", that it was all just a white lady getting mad she was told she was white. Here is timelord making an outrage-based, content free dismissal of my comparison to the kind of abuse directed at Janice Turner to Gamergate, despite the fact that yes, telling women to chug cocks is exactly the kind of thing that Gamergates do to women. Here is kagredon not actually defending the abuse per se but making a very stupid and obnoxious straw man argument that's fairly similar and pretty much intentionally trying to create a climate where any criticism of the video on feminist grounds is a total non-starter. And of course now ifds,sn9 riding to the rescue with a fatuous comment about Stormfront commenters.
Yeah, sorry, minimizing this behavior and re-characterizing it as something it isn't is a form of defense. I'm damn sure none of the people doing it would tolerate it in a different context, and there would be a lot of tsk-tsk'ing over that level of parsing what is and isn't abuse. "It's just fringe trolls, they don't really count as part of ~our movement~" is not actually a legitimate argument, and in fact to use GG as an example, the MeFi Feminist Hivemind doesn't accept it in that context other.
The original article is a GREAT, WELL-THOUGHT-THROUGH, CRITICAL PIECE. It is not any of these things you are trying to characterize it (and the resulting discussion) as. It's not a vapid narcissistic thinkpiece. It's not allied with these horrible people that you're quoting. I wish you would dial down the rhetoric and/or actually engage with the original article, because it's interesting and nuanced.
I did read it, and you're wrong: it is "allied" with the horrible people I'm quoting, in as much as it's making a lot of the same arguments in more academic language. Yes, it's a good piece and it has a lot of great analysis, but it's still making the argument that essentially boils down to "direct critique of the misogyny and violence in the video is wrong because it's done in a black-on-white context", just in fancier, more academic language:
"Rihanna is quite deliberate in her choice of Canadian actor and model Rachel Roberts; she is the beauty ideal in our culture and the specter of white womanhood that white supremacists violently defend and that marketers promote as a “universal” ideal. That she is subjected to various abuses—stuffed in a trunk, hung naked upside down, drugged and knocked unconscious—is akin to little girls destroying their “perfect” dolls precisely because such beauty models are viewed as oppressive (the “doll” metaphor is most obvious when Rihanna’s posse take turns literally “dolling” her up in a motel room). In literally objectifying the “kidnapped” white woman (the type that mainstream media offers up in 24/7 coverage), Rihanna’s video subverts standard tropes of victimized womanhood through the spectacle of bad-girls-on-the-run."Overall, they're making the same argument, the twitter trolls are just doing it more bluntly and obnoxiously and with personal abuse thrown in besides, but the reason they feel justified doing it is down to the same reasoning: because of the racial context, it's okay. Just like joyceanmachine thinks it's apparently cool to downplay the abuse because someone used the term "white" while abusing Janice Turner and also she's a Rupert Murdoch employee, so let's literally ignore everything else that comes alongside it or brush it off to the side and not even mention the word "bitch" directly. Just like people even now are pretending that taking abusive twitter comments that some of Karynthia's followers made to people responding to the "not about you" tweet that everyone loves is somehow "taking it out of context". But like, that's just the same as random Stormfront commenters, right?
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 10:36 AM on July 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm so glad we're talking about internet trolls instead of art produced by black women.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Here is joyceanmachine trying to pretend that because the author of a an article critical of BBHMM received abuse including the phrase "white racist bitch", that it was all just a white lady getting mad she was told she was white
. . . that's an egregious misreading of very plain, very straightforward language. I mean, we're not even talking uncharitable. We're talking about straight-up textually and factually inaccurate.
I don't think you're a troll, so let me be even clearer. I agree that abusive language appears to have been used towards the writer of the critical article. I don't even think you need to get to the stuff about cocks and ground glass. In fact, as my original comment clearly stated, I believe that being called a bitch is abusive. I didn't actually type the word out because because I don't like to use it.
However, it's questionable whether "white racist" in that context is abusive -- meant to insult and upset, yes, but does it come up to the line of abusive, especially if it's true? Further -- and this is why I noped out of the rest of that article -- when you've got "bitch" and ground glass and cocks and all kinds of no-doubt genuinely abusive language, choosing to lead with "white racist" is a sign that the person writing the article either does not to recognize racist dog whistles, or wants to use the dog whistle to draw the sympathy of white racists. Those usually mean that the rest of the article will not provide a nuanced analysis of a complex, charged issue.
Further, you appear to think that when people are called racist and do not believe they are, they should be offended. I believe that is incorrect, particularly for white people. When white people are called racist and do not believe they are, or when POC are told they're being anti-_________, they should have a good, long hard self-examination what they have done. If they continue to believe they are not racist, or when POC are told they're being anti-__________, they should make a good faith, sincere effort to figure out why someone said those things. If they subsequently decide that they were falsely told they were racist, they should either FIAMO or take some other reasonable, proportionate response, keeping in mind that the world is goddamn full of actual people who would be correctly described as being racists.
Of course, being offended by being called racist is better than being OK with being called racist. On the other hand, it's a really low bar. People can and should do better, especially because the dynamic you seem to think is appropriate usually leads to white people getting their hackles up and not actually thinking about what they have done to be racist, which means that others end up having to continue to put up with shitty acts and language from people who are racist/anti-______, but are so scared of being bad people/being thought of as racist/anti-_______ that they do not think through their acts. This leads them to continue harmful and shitty things to POC or ________. Which is racist or anti-________, as the case may be.
Being racist isn't the end of the world. It is not an automatic disqualification from the human race. Many people I care about and value are racist. My first gen Chinese parents are virulently anti-black. I've done things that I now recognize are anti-black. I try not to do them anymore.
From my point of view, this is pretty basic racism stuff. Maybe not 101, but definitely 203 or 204, Intermediate Level: Now That You're No Longer Arguing That The Confederate Flag Is A Free Speech Issue.
I'm out of this thread.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:28 AM on July 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
. . . that's an egregious misreading of very plain, very straightforward language. I mean, we're not even talking uncharitable. We're talking about straight-up textually and factually inaccurate.
I don't think you're a troll, so let me be even clearer. I agree that abusive language appears to have been used towards the writer of the critical article. I don't even think you need to get to the stuff about cocks and ground glass. In fact, as my original comment clearly stated, I believe that being called a bitch is abusive. I didn't actually type the word out because because I don't like to use it.
However, it's questionable whether "white racist" in that context is abusive -- meant to insult and upset, yes, but does it come up to the line of abusive, especially if it's true? Further -- and this is why I noped out of the rest of that article -- when you've got "bitch" and ground glass and cocks and all kinds of no-doubt genuinely abusive language, choosing to lead with "white racist" is a sign that the person writing the article either does not to recognize racist dog whistles, or wants to use the dog whistle to draw the sympathy of white racists. Those usually mean that the rest of the article will not provide a nuanced analysis of a complex, charged issue.
Further, you appear to think that when people are called racist and do not believe they are, they should be offended. I believe that is incorrect, particularly for white people. When white people are called racist and do not believe they are, or when POC are told they're being anti-_________, they should have a good, long hard self-examination what they have done. If they continue to believe they are not racist, or when POC are told they're being anti-__________, they should make a good faith, sincere effort to figure out why someone said those things. If they subsequently decide that they were falsely told they were racist, they should either FIAMO or take some other reasonable, proportionate response, keeping in mind that the world is goddamn full of actual people who would be correctly described as being racists.
Of course, being offended by being called racist is better than being OK with being called racist. On the other hand, it's a really low bar. People can and should do better, especially because the dynamic you seem to think is appropriate usually leads to white people getting their hackles up and not actually thinking about what they have done to be racist, which means that others end up having to continue to put up with shitty acts and language from people who are racist/anti-______, but are so scared of being bad people/being thought of as racist/anti-_______ that they do not think through their acts. This leads them to continue harmful and shitty things to POC or ________. Which is racist or anti-________, as the case may be.
Being racist isn't the end of the world. It is not an automatic disqualification from the human race. Many people I care about and value are racist. My first gen Chinese parents are virulently anti-black. I've done things that I now recognize are anti-black. I try not to do them anymore.
From my point of view, this is pretty basic racism stuff. Maybe not 101, but definitely 203 or 204, Intermediate Level: Now That You're No Longer Arguing That The Confederate Flag Is A Free Speech Issue.
I'm out of this thread.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:28 AM on July 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
People, people! You're all racist, misogynistic, capitalist pigs to me, now can't we just get along?
posted by signal at 2:30 PM on July 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 2:30 PM on July 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Frowner: I think that someone who is much more enmeshed in our commodified and violent public sphere might find this kind of thing politically powerful precisely because they're already in a sea of violent pop images.
nadawi: and besides, if we're going to get serious about examining sexualized violence against women, nearly every crime of the week show on network tv should be first in line for critique long before we get to anything that rihanna has done in her art.
Frowner: The fact that this video is what Rihanna can say tells us a lot about the horizon of what is expressible by Black artists like her.
It seems to me like there's a really good, illustrative historical reference point for a lot of this: it's another reiteration of the Sister Souljah moment, the move that lets (mostly) white liberals establish themselves as the gatekeepers of what counts as "constructive" racial and feminist discourse and what doesn't by targeting a black female artist, ignoring the context of her statements, and overwriting her decontextualized expressions as The Real Problem.
Strangely, in all these repudiations of fantasies of redemptive violence, the actual and ongoing violence against black people and especially black women continues unremarked. Welfare reform, sentencing disparities, and the war on drugs were just business as usual.
posted by kewb at 3:05 PM on July 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
nadawi: and besides, if we're going to get serious about examining sexualized violence against women, nearly every crime of the week show on network tv should be first in line for critique long before we get to anything that rihanna has done in her art.
Frowner: The fact that this video is what Rihanna can say tells us a lot about the horizon of what is expressible by Black artists like her.
It seems to me like there's a really good, illustrative historical reference point for a lot of this: it's another reiteration of the Sister Souljah moment, the move that lets (mostly) white liberals establish themselves as the gatekeepers of what counts as "constructive" racial and feminist discourse and what doesn't by targeting a black female artist, ignoring the context of her statements, and overwriting her decontextualized expressions as The Real Problem.
Strangely, in all these repudiations of fantasies of redemptive violence, the actual and ongoing violence against black people and especially black women continues unremarked. Welfare reform, sentencing disparities, and the war on drugs were just business as usual.
posted by kewb at 3:05 PM on July 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I really liked the video. Black slaves in the historical South worked all day on the plantation and then worked their own gardens afterwards. Slaveowners did not even feed their slaves. The slaves had to somehow keep themselves alive while the majority of their labor benefitted the owner. Slave gardens were on the worst, most unproductive bits of land.
The degree to which blacks were bled for the financial benefit of whites is very literal. I like the blood and violence in the video as an expression of what so much of society does not even discuss: The worst things done to blacks are not really the ugly violent attacks we can point to and readily understand as wrong. No, the worst things are the invisible forms of violence where their lives and their blood was turned into other people's money. The stuff where we still as a culture cannot make the connection that when you work people to the bone and do not pay them, it is not merely something worth being miffed about. It is a form of murder and torture.
I really like the demand that the bitch better have my money. The position that, no, it is not merely some inconvenience that my bank balance is at ZERO while someone else is living it up on my money.
Given that it is 3 women of different colors who work together, one of whom is white, I do not even see it as misogynist or about hating white women. It would bother me if I thought that was what was expressed.
posted by Michele in California at 5:24 PM on July 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
The degree to which blacks were bled for the financial benefit of whites is very literal. I like the blood and violence in the video as an expression of what so much of society does not even discuss: The worst things done to blacks are not really the ugly violent attacks we can point to and readily understand as wrong. No, the worst things are the invisible forms of violence where their lives and their blood was turned into other people's money. The stuff where we still as a culture cannot make the connection that when you work people to the bone and do not pay them, it is not merely something worth being miffed about. It is a form of murder and torture.
I really like the demand that the bitch better have my money. The position that, no, it is not merely some inconvenience that my bank balance is at ZERO while someone else is living it up on my money.
Given that it is 3 women of different colors who work together, one of whom is white, I do not even see it as misogynist or about hating white women. It would bother me if I thought that was what was expressed.
posted by Michele in California at 5:24 PM on July 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Here's nadawi using the "taken out of context" argument to defend a tweet I'm sure she'd never in a million years deem to be okay in any other context
i will absolutely stand behind context matters. that tweet, which is part of a bigger context (have you even searched back and read it?), is saying "stay in your lane defenders of white mainstream feminism" and i support that sentiment all fucking day. when a black woman is using her art to work through complicated ideas about white womanhood, as a white woman i think it behooves me to shut up and listen to woc, especially black women, discuss it - and then if i find myself in a conversation with predominantly white feminists about it i think it's appropriate to bring up what woc are saying. you can disagree, but you can do that without telling the thread you're sure of how i might react to some hypothetical situation that doesn't resemble this one.
posted by nadawi at 7:27 PM on July 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
i will absolutely stand behind context matters. that tweet, which is part of a bigger context (have you even searched back and read it?), is saying "stay in your lane defenders of white mainstream feminism" and i support that sentiment all fucking day. when a black woman is using her art to work through complicated ideas about white womanhood, as a white woman i think it behooves me to shut up and listen to woc, especially black women, discuss it - and then if i find myself in a conversation with predominantly white feminists about it i think it's appropriate to bring up what woc are saying. you can disagree, but you can do that without telling the thread you're sure of how i might react to some hypothetical situation that doesn't resemble this one.
posted by nadawi at 7:27 PM on July 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
some excerpts from mikki kendall's twitter all around that cookie tweet :
So tomorrow, can we skip past the insistence that Rihanna be respectable & move right into discussing this video as a short film?
Listen, y'all entertain people whining about Rihanna not being a good role model. I'm going to talk about craft & imagery in #BBHMMVideo
I know some folks will feel a way about the idea of a Black woman embracing an aesthetic that is usually inhabited by white men. You'll deal
A woman made X, is not the same as a woman attempting to make X feminist. I need folks to embrace that reality.
I really need some sleep. But tomorrow, we talk about making problematic things because you as a creator have some things to work out.
so you can keep casting her as some aggressive bullying gamergate-lite troll...or you can notice that she's actually making some of the same arguments you started this thread with (that not everything has to be seen through a lens of is it or is it not feminist) before you decided to hoist up the angry black woman trope.
posted by nadawi at 7:40 PM on July 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
So tomorrow, can we skip past the insistence that Rihanna be respectable & move right into discussing this video as a short film?
Listen, y'all entertain people whining about Rihanna not being a good role model. I'm going to talk about craft & imagery in #BBHMMVideo
I know some folks will feel a way about the idea of a Black woman embracing an aesthetic that is usually inhabited by white men. You'll deal
A woman made X, is not the same as a woman attempting to make X feminist. I need folks to embrace that reality.
I really need some sleep. But tomorrow, we talk about making problematic things because you as a creator have some things to work out.
so you can keep casting her as some aggressive bullying gamergate-lite troll...or you can notice that she's actually making some of the same arguments you started this thread with (that not everything has to be seen through a lens of is it or is it not feminist) before you decided to hoist up the angry black woman trope.
posted by nadawi at 7:40 PM on July 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
The music doesn't do a lot for me, but the video is great. I don't quite see how it excites such outrage, though -- it's art, and good art at that, but not something that is threatening or problematic.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:49 PM on July 10, 2015
posted by Dip Flash at 8:49 PM on July 10, 2015
I don't quite see how it excites such outrage, though -- it's art, and good art at that, but not something that is threatening or problematic.
At this point, that's one of the interesting aspects to me. Okay, given the existence of Hannibal and Sin City and all of Tarantino's work… somehow this is over-the-line troubling? Um. Yeah.
posted by Lexica at 9:44 PM on July 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
At this point, that's one of the interesting aspects to me. Okay, given the existence of Hannibal and Sin City and all of Tarantino's work… somehow this is over-the-line troubling? Um. Yeah.
posted by Lexica at 9:44 PM on July 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, the movie Silence of the Lambs was something that really hit a nerve for a lot of people at the time. I wrote a blog post about my opinion that the real reason it disturbs so many people is because it is a feminist piece, not because it is about serial killers and cannibalism. So, I think, yeah, the real problem is anytime women genuinely challenge the status quo. That's the only violence and the like we seem bothered by.
posted by Michele in California at 9:50 PM on July 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Michele in California at 9:50 PM on July 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm about to read through this interesting-looking thread, but I just watched the video for the first time and would like to formally note that it was awesome and I loved it.
posted by aka burlap at 10:08 PM on July 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by aka burlap at 10:08 PM on July 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
....ok, that should have been "I'm about to read through this contentious thread."
It's been articulated better already upthread, but I find it really exciting and awesome to see pieces like this from woc particularly where the feeling of power - really fucking overdue power - is there, where they are upending the narrative and they don't care if you like it or not... I just find it very inspiring.
posted by aka burlap at 10:44 PM on July 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's been articulated better already upthread, but I find it really exciting and awesome to see pieces like this from woc particularly where the feeling of power - really fucking overdue power - is there, where they are upending the narrative and they don't care if you like it or not... I just find it very inspiring.
posted by aka burlap at 10:44 PM on July 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm a cis white guy so maybe I'm not reading this deeply enough: seems to me like Rihanna is saying "This is what men do every single day" not just in terms of the violence of the story, but in the creation of the video itself. It's a mirror.
As for the song itself as a song, I hadn't heard it until I was out dancing during Pride. The DJ dropped it and the dance floor fucking exploded. A few hundred people of varying genders and orientations just went totally ballistic for a few minutes, screaming out "bitch better have my money" and just turning into a grindy sweaty aggressive mess. Admittedly I haven't been out partying in a while; even back in my party days those moments were rare, especially for a song this relatively new. Not even my kind of music really (I like more oonst oonst oonst oonst), and I've been playing it a lot.
Guess what I'm saying is, looks like Rihanna nailed it on a whole lotta levels here, for me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:45 AM on July 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
As for the song itself as a song, I hadn't heard it until I was out dancing during Pride. The DJ dropped it and the dance floor fucking exploded. A few hundred people of varying genders and orientations just went totally ballistic for a few minutes, screaming out "bitch better have my money" and just turning into a grindy sweaty aggressive mess. Admittedly I haven't been out partying in a while; even back in my party days those moments were rare, especially for a song this relatively new. Not even my kind of music really (I like more oonst oonst oonst oonst), and I've been playing it a lot.
Guess what I'm saying is, looks like Rihanna nailed it on a whole lotta levels here, for me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:45 AM on July 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Rihanna's work frequently explores the often-problematic intersection of sex and violence. I think she, like many women and especially many women of color, has some problematic feels about that intersection and it comes out in the songs and videos that she chooses to do. I think that kind of amplifies the respectability-politics expectations that hurled at her, sometimes in relatively mild ways like the unsupported assertion that this video was directed at children (?!) or in really really gross ways like the "ooh, what kind of example is she setting" ~concern~ when she briefly got back together with Chris Brown (as though abused women don't frequently have a difficult time breaking away from their abusers.)
I also have a lot of feels about how Rihanna's apparently decided to use her fame, wealth and style to seek out and support other WOC artists--in the case of the writer of this song or, going back a few months, the Met Gala thing where she was one of very few people who showed up in a dress actually designed by a Chinese designer and when interviewed about it basically said "yeah, I spent about half an hour Googling "Chinese couture" and found a working designer who I clicked with, it seemed PRETTY OBVIOUS ACTUALLY."
posted by kagredon at 11:07 AM on July 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
I also have a lot of feels about how Rihanna's apparently decided to use her fame, wealth and style to seek out and support other WOC artists--in the case of the writer of this song or, going back a few months, the Met Gala thing where she was one of very few people who showed up in a dress actually designed by a Chinese designer and when interviewed about it basically said "yeah, I spent about half an hour Googling "Chinese couture" and found a working designer who I clicked with, it seemed PRETTY OBVIOUS ACTUALLY."
posted by kagredon at 11:07 AM on July 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
Then there's all us kinksters to whom the film coded kink. My BBHMM think piece.
posted by Mistress at 3:24 AM on July 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mistress at 3:24 AM on July 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mistress - as you point out in your piece, i found it very interesting to watch this video right next to her video for "s&m" - and imagine the video she would make for that song today. they do seem to be connected through a few different outfits/stagings/props.
posted by nadawi at 7:12 AM on July 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 7:12 AM on July 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
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