They're Not Used Very Often
July 9, 2015 11:32 AM Subscribe
2007 stats were way higher, thrown off by one PC Angle in an operation in the village of Sandford, Gloucestershire.
posted by GuyZero at 11:41 AM on July 9, 2015 [54 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 11:41 AM on July 9, 2015 [54 favorites]
firearms were only used in 0.013 per cent of armed police operations during this period
The main difference is that in Britain, not every police operation is an armed police operation. I honestly doubt the apples-to-apples American rate is anywhere as high as 0.013%.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:41 AM on July 9, 2015
The main difference is that in Britain, not every police operation is an armed police operation. I honestly doubt the apples-to-apples American rate is anywhere as high as 0.013%.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:41 AM on July 9, 2015
(Which isn't to downplay the upshot, which is that UK police shoot way fewer people. That's a good thing. They're doing it right.)
posted by Sys Rq at 11:45 AM on July 9, 2015
posted by Sys Rq at 11:45 AM on July 9, 2015
The main difference is that in Britain, not every police operation is an armed police operation. I honestly doubt the apples-to-apples American rate is anywhere as high as 0.013%.
That just makes the difference even more striking. If armed police are only sent out in particular circumstances in Britain (presumably circumstances where firearms might be necessary) and still manage to only shoot in 0.013% of their operations, that means the overall rate is even lower (since all the unarmed police operations obviously don't involve shooting).
posted by Rangi at 11:47 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
That just makes the difference even more striking. If armed police are only sent out in particular circumstances in Britain (presumably circumstances where firearms might be necessary) and still manage to only shoot in 0.013% of their operations, that means the overall rate is even lower (since all the unarmed police operations obviously don't involve shooting).
posted by Rangi at 11:47 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
But, but...how many people have the Police stabbed in the UK? Huh?
posted by Windopaene at 11:48 AM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 11:48 AM on July 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
But, but...how many people have the Police stabbed in the UK? Huh?
This is why the UK has knife control (I'm not kidding. The UK has knife control laws).
posted by srboisvert at 11:54 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is why the UK has knife control (I'm not kidding. The UK has knife control laws).
posted by srboisvert at 11:54 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
It'd be more fair to compare, for example, England vs California, rather than England vs the US, since the US has 320 million plus people. But I also doubt that would much change how depressing the comparison is.
posted by aesacus at 11:57 AM on July 9, 2015
posted by aesacus at 11:57 AM on July 9, 2015
Since gun control and gun ownership is so distinctly different in the U.S. compared to most if not all other nations, I see no useful purpose it showing us that country A has so many more gun deaths and police uses that in country B. In passing, Maine just ok'd concealed gun carry without the need for gun license.
posted by Postroad at 12:00 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 12:00 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's not the police in the country. This isn't an example of how UK police have amazing powers of persuasion.
That said, I'd much rather receive a stern talking-to from the worst London cop than the best Arkansas state trooper.
It's the guns in the country. UK police rarely shoot at people because they don't need to shoot at people. They have gun laws that make sense.
According to the FBI, from 1980–2014, an average of 64 law enforcement officers have been feloniously killed per year. Mostly by guns.
The Washington Post says, of the 511 police officer gun deaths in the last decade, it was most commonly a legal handgun, when the officer was at a traffic stop, resulting in a life sentence.
43 of those 511 deaths were classified as an ambush. How many armed ambushes do you think UK police see in a year?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:01 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
That said, I'd much rather receive a stern talking-to from the worst London cop than the best Arkansas state trooper.
It's the guns in the country. UK police rarely shoot at people because they don't need to shoot at people. They have gun laws that make sense.
According to the FBI, from 1980–2014, an average of 64 law enforcement officers have been feloniously killed per year. Mostly by guns.
The Washington Post says, of the 511 police officer gun deaths in the last decade, it was most commonly a legal handgun, when the officer was at a traffic stop, resulting in a life sentence.
43 of those 511 deaths were classified as an ambush. How many armed ambushes do you think UK police see in a year?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:01 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's not the police in the country.
[...]
It's the guns in the country.
Yes, definitely, but also no. Police without guns means random black guys without bullets in their backs.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
[...]
It's the guns in the country.
Yes, definitely, but also no. Police without guns means random black guys without bullets in their backs.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's also very, very helpful when the government actually collects this data in a systematic way, rather than forcing citizens to DIY the effort.
That said, I'd much rather receive a stern talking-to from the worst London cop than the best Arkansas state trooper.
On a lighter note, were recently in the UK, and flipping on the TV to watch cop reality shows in the UK was rather amusing.
The main difference?
Instead of "GET DOWN ON THE GROUND! GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!" it was "Sorry, mate. You know that's illegal, right?"
Stern talking-tos vs. guns-drawn-in-your-face-screaming-takedowns, essentially.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:08 PM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
That said, I'd much rather receive a stern talking-to from the worst London cop than the best Arkansas state trooper.
On a lighter note, were recently in the UK, and flipping on the TV to watch cop reality shows in the UK was rather amusing.
The main difference?
Instead of "GET DOWN ON THE GROUND! GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!" it was "Sorry, mate. You know that's illegal, right?"
Stern talking-tos vs. guns-drawn-in-your-face-screaming-takedowns, essentially.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:08 PM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
In 25 years of life in the UK, and 8 more years of regular travel backwards and forwards to and from there, I have seen armed British police no more than a half-dozen times at the most, and as far as I can recall only ever at airports.
The only times I've heard firearms being discharged were when I lived within earshot of an MOD rifle range.
I've never touched or held a gun, and the only people I've personally known who've owned firearms have been farmers who shoot pheasants with them.
Yes, this is all massively subjective, just one person's lifesperience etc. etc. but I write to illustrate the point that in Britain guns are, for the most part, simply off the radar in every sense. Gun crime and / or police shootings are not "not an issue" but more "not a thing" for the overwhelming majority of people in the UK.
posted by protorp at 12:14 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
The only times I've heard firearms being discharged were when I lived within earshot of an MOD rifle range.
I've never touched or held a gun, and the only people I've personally known who've owned firearms have been farmers who shoot pheasants with them.
Yes, this is all massively subjective, just one person's lifesperience etc. etc. but I write to illustrate the point that in Britain guns are, for the most part, simply off the radar in every sense. Gun crime and / or police shootings are not "not an issue" but more "not a thing" for the overwhelming majority of people in the UK.
posted by protorp at 12:14 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Since gun control and gun ownership is so distinctly different in the U.S. compared to most if not all other nations, I see no useful purpose it showing us that country A has so many more gun deaths and police uses that in country B.
The useful purpose is showing that the obscene numbers of gun deaths are not inevitable and can be reduced if people will grow up and vote in politicians who will enact laws that prevent people from being murdered all the time.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:16 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
The useful purpose is showing that the obscene numbers of gun deaths are not inevitable and can be reduced if people will grow up and vote in politicians who will enact laws that prevent people from being murdered all the time.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:16 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
This would be a much more illustrative if the study included numbers from N. Ireland. Given the history, British treatment of the Irish is more analogous to the way that the USA treats black people.
posted by wuwei at 12:20 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by wuwei at 12:20 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The main difference is that in Britain, not every police operation is an armed police operation. I honestly doubt the apples-to-apples American rate is anywhere as high as 0.013%.
You could compare US police shootings to police shootings in other countries with just about universally-armed police, like Germany, France, or Sweden. They shoot way the hell fewer people.
Since gun control and gun ownership is so distinctly different in the U.S. compared to most if not all other nations, I see no useful purpose it showing us that country A has so many more gun deaths and police uses that in country B.
It's beyond simple patterns of gun ownership; something is just deeply wrong with the US. I mean, Norway, Sweden, France, Canada, and Austria have gun ownership rates about a third of that in the US. All of those also have armed cops. If it were just about gun ownership and/or armed cops, we should expect the US to have about triple the firearm homicide rate of these countries, and about triple the rate of police shootings. But in fact the US rates are vastly higher than that, because something has gone uniquely and horribly wrong with American society.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
You could compare US police shootings to police shootings in other countries with just about universally-armed police, like Germany, France, or Sweden. They shoot way the hell fewer people.
Since gun control and gun ownership is so distinctly different in the U.S. compared to most if not all other nations, I see no useful purpose it showing us that country A has so many more gun deaths and police uses that in country B.
It's beyond simple patterns of gun ownership; something is just deeply wrong with the US. I mean, Norway, Sweden, France, Canada, and Austria have gun ownership rates about a third of that in the US. All of those also have armed cops. If it were just about gun ownership and/or armed cops, we should expect the US to have about triple the firearm homicide rate of these countries, and about triple the rate of police shootings. But in fact the US rates are vastly higher than that, because something has gone uniquely and horribly wrong with American society.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
Yes, this is all massively subjective, just one person's lifesperience etc. etc. but I write to illustrate the point that in Britain guns are, for the most part, simply off the radar in every sense. Gun crime and / or police shootings are not "not an issue" but more "not a thing" for the overwhelming majority of people in the UK.
As someone who grew up in the tyrannical, occupied, police and nanny state of Western Australia and moved to California I felt the same. It was kind of funny because a friend was taking my father out shooting one day and my friend needed some ammo. We went down to the gun store and then just picked up a box of ammo and paid for it. No license, no ID, just cash. Then we just drove the ammo back to my place. With the ammo on the front seat on my friend's lap. I felt like I was doing something that was totally fucking illegal. Like weapons smuggling level of illegal. It was entirely surreal.
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
As someone who grew up in the tyrannical, occupied, police and nanny state of Western Australia and moved to California I felt the same. It was kind of funny because a friend was taking my father out shooting one day and my friend needed some ammo. We went down to the gun store and then just picked up a box of ammo and paid for it. No license, no ID, just cash. Then we just drove the ammo back to my place. With the ammo on the front seat on my friend's lap. I felt like I was doing something that was totally fucking illegal. Like weapons smuggling level of illegal. It was entirely surreal.
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
It'd be more fair to compare, for example, England vs California, rather than England vs the US, since the US has 320 million plus people.
The UK population is 64 million about 20% of the USA
From the article: However, when population differences are taken into account, people in the USA are around 100 times more likely to be shot by the police than British people are.
posted by Lanark at 12:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
The UK population is 64 million about 20% of the USA
From the article: However, when population differences are taken into account, people in the USA are around 100 times more likely to be shot by the police than British people are.
posted by Lanark at 12:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's worth noting that there are quite a few armed police routine deployments- hanging around airports, plus major train or tube stations from time to time, very rarely I spot them just hanging around in a major city for no obvious reason, there's often one or two loitering at the entrance to the US ambassador's house in London, etc. So they're not just called out to emergencies, which keeps that percentage low.
That said, this week's episode of Analysis (a series of generally pretty good radio documentaries from BBC Radio 4), which rejoices in the the definitely-not-inflammatory title of "why do American police kill so many black men?" talks a bit about the different policing cultures and mindsets between the UK and USA police, with ex-officers from both sides of the Atlantic. It's worth a listen. (Tangentially, the radio comedy it's a fair cop is hosted by a British ex-cop and gives some insight into beat policing in the UK.)
It'd be more fair to compare, for example, England vs California, rather than England vs the US, since the US has 320 million plus people.
The US population is roughly 5.5 times that of England + Wales, so if we multiply that figure up to compensate we get 11. Still rather low.
posted by metaBugs at 12:33 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
That said, this week's episode of Analysis (a series of generally pretty good radio documentaries from BBC Radio 4), which rejoices in the the definitely-not-inflammatory title of "why do American police kill so many black men?" talks a bit about the different policing cultures and mindsets between the UK and USA police, with ex-officers from both sides of the Atlantic. It's worth a listen. (Tangentially, the radio comedy it's a fair cop is hosted by a British ex-cop and gives some insight into beat policing in the UK.)
It'd be more fair to compare, for example, England vs California, rather than England vs the US, since the US has 320 million plus people.
The US population is roughly 5.5 times that of England + Wales, so if we multiply that figure up to compensate we get 11. Still rather low.
posted by metaBugs at 12:33 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
This would be a much more illustrative if the study included numbers from N. Ireland.
Wikipedia has some figures here, 11 deaths in NI since 1920, none since 1992.
posted by Lanark at 12:35 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wikipedia has some figures here, 11 deaths in NI since 1920, none since 1992.
posted by Lanark at 12:35 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's no denying that the British intelligence services got up to some horrifying stuff over there, though; whether that should be counted amongst the armed police data is a judgement call, I guess.
posted by metaBugs at 12:38 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by metaBugs at 12:38 PM on July 9, 2015
This would be a much more illustrative if the study included numbers from N. Ireland. Given the history, British treatment of the Irish is more analogous to the way that the USA treats black people.
This is quite a good point, given that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is indeed an armed police force. According to the Statistics on Police Use of Force available here, PSNI officers have discharged their guns on nine separate occasions in the period April 2008–March 2015.
posted by bebrogued at 12:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is quite a good point, given that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is indeed an armed police force. According to the Statistics on Police Use of Force available here, PSNI officers have discharged their guns on nine separate occasions in the period April 2008–March 2015.
posted by bebrogued at 12:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
This would be a much more illustrative if the study included numbers from N. Ireland. Given the history, British treatment of the Irish is more analogous to the way that the USA treats black people.
The whole of the PSNI is routinely armed. Between mid 2012 and spring 2015, according to these statistics there were a) 12 accidental discharges, b) 16 discharges aimed at killing animals, and c) 2 discharges at an armed assailant.
posted by Thing at 12:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
The whole of the PSNI is routinely armed. Between mid 2012 and spring 2015, according to these statistics there were a) 12 accidental discharges, b) 16 discharges aimed at killing animals, and c) 2 discharges at an armed assailant.
posted by Thing at 12:40 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
But but but how many criminals got away over there?
[/sarcasm]
posted by gottabefunky at 12:41 PM on July 9, 2015
[/sarcasm]
posted by gottabefunky at 12:41 PM on July 9, 2015
I enjoyed Why Do American Police Kill So Many Black Men? too, and was thinking of posting it myself. I thought it was interesting that the primary objective of the U.S. police forces seems to be protecting police officers at the expense of anyone who might reasonably or unreasonably be considered an assailant. Essentially arming them with military grade weaponry and instituting a policy of systematic cowardice.
posted by Grangousier at 12:56 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 12:56 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, but the original purpose of having guns in the USA was to shoot the British. So technically every American death should be counted on the UK stats.
posted by blue_beetle at 12:59 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 12:59 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's Sergeant Angle.
You know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
posted by chimaera at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
You know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
posted by chimaera at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but the original purpose of having guns in the USA was to shoot the British.
And if the UK cops won't do it, who will?
This is why the UK has knife control (I'm not kidding. The UK has knife control laws).
This is not uncommon. In Canada, we are not allowed switchblades or butterfly knives, which was disappointing to a certain 10-year-old action-movie-loving Canadian boy. In retrospect, thank you Canada, I still have all my fingers and none of my scars are accidental self-inflicted knife wounds.
posted by Hoopo at 1:06 PM on July 9, 2015
And if the UK cops won't do it, who will?
This is why the UK has knife control (I'm not kidding. The UK has knife control laws).
This is not uncommon. In Canada, we are not allowed switchblades or butterfly knives, which was disappointing to a certain 10-year-old action-movie-loving Canadian boy. In retrospect, thank you Canada, I still have all my fingers and none of my scars are accidental self-inflicted knife wounds.
posted by Hoopo at 1:06 PM on July 9, 2015
that's because there aren't two guns for every man, woman and child in Wales.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:28 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by Ironmouth at 1:28 PM on July 9, 2015
This is the difference.
30 UK police. Mentally disturbed man with a machete. No death. They yield their position if he comes at them. They surrounded him with riot shields, disarmed him and took him into custody. They didn't beat the shit out of him.
If he took one step towards a cop in the US brandishing a machete he'd be full of lead before his foot would even hit the ground. Don't forget the "STOP RESISTING WHILE WE BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!".
THIS IS WHAT A PROFESSIONAL POLICE FORCE IS SUPPOSED TO FUCKING LOOK LIKE.
posted by Talez at 1:29 PM on July 9, 2015 [45 favorites]
30 UK police. Mentally disturbed man with a machete. No death. They yield their position if he comes at them. They surrounded him with riot shields, disarmed him and took him into custody. They didn't beat the shit out of him.
If he took one step towards a cop in the US brandishing a machete he'd be full of lead before his foot would even hit the ground. Don't forget the "STOP RESISTING WHILE WE BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!".
THIS IS WHAT A PROFESSIONAL POLICE FORCE IS SUPPOSED TO FUCKING LOOK LIKE.
posted by Talez at 1:29 PM on July 9, 2015 [45 favorites]
the original purpose of having guns in the USA was to shoot the British
The reason for the the right bear arms is to help the formation of local militias to put down slave rebellions, so no, guns have always been for the purpose of killing black men.
I know you were joking, but still.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 1:32 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
The reason for the the right bear arms is to help the formation of local militias to put down slave rebellions, so no, guns have always been for the purpose of killing black men.
I know you were joking, but still.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 1:32 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
There are places in the United States where you can't own certain types of knives.
posted by drezdn at 1:34 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by drezdn at 1:34 PM on July 9, 2015
there are 3 million people with 107,000 guns in Wales. There are 320 million people with 630 million guns in the US.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:35 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by Ironmouth at 1:35 PM on July 9, 2015
In 25 years of life in the UK, and 8 more years of regular travel backwards and forwards to and from there, I have seen armed British police no more than a half-dozen times at the most, and as far as I can recall only ever at airports.
Guess you don't travel by train much? Never been at any of the major London stations, or Manchester Piccadilly without seeing a pair of coppers with submachine guns
posted by Dysk at 1:38 PM on July 9, 2015
Guess you don't travel by train much? Never been at any of the major London stations, or Manchester Piccadilly without seeing a pair of coppers with submachine guns
posted by Dysk at 1:38 PM on July 9, 2015
30 UK police. Mentally disturbed man with a machete. No death. They yield their position if he comes at them.
Also, the bad words are bleeped out, so that any toddlers watching the video of a mentally disturbed machete-armed man in a standoff with a couple dozen police officers will not learn any cussing.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, the bad words are bleeped out, so that any toddlers watching the video of a mentally disturbed machete-armed man in a standoff with a couple dozen police officers will not learn any cussing.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes, Ironmouth, that is the point. Guns everywhere is in fact a net detriment to society, and the USA is the biggest example of that. Other places in the world with similar cultural demographics do not have the same problem to the extent. And most of us have far fewer guns. And there are a lot of statistics like "number of children with heads accidentally blown off" and "number of poor people of colour killed this year by police officers" and "how many schools have been shot up lately" that plummet as gun ownership numbers plummet. There are also obviously social issues that help, such as having less criminal desperation due to more solid social safety nets. The numbers-of-guns thing is, no matter how you slice and dice it, directly correlated to how high those statistics are. More guns -> more availability -> more likely for something tragic to happen. The numbers matter, just not in the way you think they do.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on July 9, 2015
The reason for the the right bear arms is to help the formation of local militias to put down slave rebellions, so no, guns have always been for the purpose of killing black men.
In England the right to bear arms was first put forward in the Bill of Rights in 1689. It was only open to Protestants, however, so you may guess whom the framers were keen to see shot.
posted by Thing at 1:49 PM on July 9, 2015
In England the right to bear arms was first put forward in the Bill of Rights in 1689. It was only open to Protestants, however, so you may guess whom the framers were keen to see shot.
posted by Thing at 1:49 PM on July 9, 2015
we could disarm the police if we disarmed the citizenry. that's a stone fact. America is massively violent place. 100,000 people a year are shot. somewhere north or south of 1.5 percent are by police.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:51 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by Ironmouth at 1:51 PM on July 9, 2015
we could disarm the police if we disarmed the citizenry. that's a stone fact. America is massively violent place. 100,000 people a year are shot. somewhere north or south of 1.5 percent are by police.
Switzerland has almost half of their populace armed yet they don't shoot the living shit out of each other. Germany has one third of the guns of the US per capita yet their police force has killed ONE PERSON this year.
American fucking exceptionalism indeed.
posted by Talez at 2:07 PM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
Switzerland has almost half of their populace armed yet they don't shoot the living shit out of each other. Germany has one third of the guns of the US per capita yet their police force has killed ONE PERSON this year.
American fucking exceptionalism indeed.
posted by Talez at 2:07 PM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
This would be a much more illustrative if the study included numbers from N. Ireland.
To be fair it was mostly the army who shot people here. Unless you count police firing rubber bullets. (Not as fun as they sound.) Heavily armed police are a normal sight here and yet the idea (recently, at least) that they could routinely shoot dead unarmed citizens and walk away is unthinkable.
posted by billiebee at 2:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be fair it was mostly the army who shot people here. Unless you count police firing rubber bullets. (Not as fun as they sound.) Heavily armed police are a normal sight here and yet the idea (recently, at least) that they could routinely shoot dead unarmed citizens and walk away is unthinkable.
posted by billiebee at 2:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Taser use by police in the UK, however, is more convergent with that of the US.
A report on their use against minors.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 2:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
A report on their use against minors.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 2:39 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Talez: “Switzerland has almost half of their populace armed yet they don't shoot the living shit out of each other. Germany has one third of the guns of the US per capita yet their police force has killed ONE PERSON this year.”
First of all, it isn't true that "almost half the populace" of Switzerland is armed. There are, according to this, 45.7 guns per 100 people in Switzerland. That does not mean that 45.7 percent of people own guns. Many gun owners own two or three or more guns; if every gun owner in Switzerland owns two guns, then that means that only 22% of the population is actually armed (and it's likely less than that, since I would bet that gun owners probably own more than two guns on average, although I welcome further statistics on this.)
But the point is still valid in the sense that, yes, Switzerland is pretty high on the list of countries who have a lot of guns per capita.
Second of all, while I think that's down largely to proper policing, I also think it's down to proper regulation of guns. Mind you: as the high number of guns per capita attests, proper regulation of guns does not necessarily mean banning guns or making them less available. First and foremost, proper regulation of guns means tracking guns, keeping a very detailed central registry so it's know when a gun is bought, who is buying it, when it's stolen, and when it's used in a crime.
None of those things are done in the United States. It's actually illegal here to keep a registry. Given the incredibly low prices guns can be had for on the black market in the US, it's almost certain that millions upon millions of guns are stolen every year in this country, and nobody knows from where. Because it's illegal to track guns, police are left to using questionable tactics like stop and frisk to try to get guns off the street.
And, third, yes, they generally use those tactics badly. The whole system is problematic, on multiple levels.
posted by koeselitz at 3:03 PM on July 9, 2015
First of all, it isn't true that "almost half the populace" of Switzerland is armed. There are, according to this, 45.7 guns per 100 people in Switzerland. That does not mean that 45.7 percent of people own guns. Many gun owners own two or three or more guns; if every gun owner in Switzerland owns two guns, then that means that only 22% of the population is actually armed (and it's likely less than that, since I would bet that gun owners probably own more than two guns on average, although I welcome further statistics on this.)
But the point is still valid in the sense that, yes, Switzerland is pretty high on the list of countries who have a lot of guns per capita.
Second of all, while I think that's down largely to proper policing, I also think it's down to proper regulation of guns. Mind you: as the high number of guns per capita attests, proper regulation of guns does not necessarily mean banning guns or making them less available. First and foremost, proper regulation of guns means tracking guns, keeping a very detailed central registry so it's know when a gun is bought, who is buying it, when it's stolen, and when it's used in a crime.
None of those things are done in the United States. It's actually illegal here to keep a registry. Given the incredibly low prices guns can be had for on the black market in the US, it's almost certain that millions upon millions of guns are stolen every year in this country, and nobody knows from where. Because it's illegal to track guns, police are left to using questionable tactics like stop and frisk to try to get guns off the street.
And, third, yes, they generally use those tactics badly. The whole system is problematic, on multiple levels.
posted by koeselitz at 3:03 PM on July 9, 2015
keeping a very detailed central registry
nonono we can't do that because of reasons
/Canada
posted by Hoopo at 3:18 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
nonono we can't do that because of reasons
/Canada
posted by Hoopo at 3:18 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, having watched Midsomer Murders, I have to say that the fact that English and Welsh police officers fire their weapons so rarely is even more miraculous when you consider that the countryside is filled with truculent vicars, wardens of rural estates harbouring dark and murderous secrets, church bell-ringers who commit serial killings to settle centuries-old familial scores, and incestuous old aunties blackmailing innocent countryfolk. You'd think guns'd be popping off every week at least.
posted by koeselitz at 3:31 PM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 3:31 PM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
Taser use by police in the UK, however, is more convergent with that of the US.
Data point of one, but check out this asshole:
"A police officer has been asked to apologise to a blind man whom he shot with a Taser when he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:41 PM on July 9, 2015
Data point of one, but check out this asshole:
"A police officer has been asked to apologise to a blind man whom he shot with a Taser when he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:41 PM on July 9, 2015
On the plus side, at least he was still alive and thus available for said arsehole to apologise to...
posted by garius at 3:55 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by garius at 3:55 PM on July 9, 2015
"A police officer has been asked to apologise to a blind man whom he shot with a Taser when he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword."
The blind tasing the blind.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:17 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
The blind tasing the blind.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:17 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
On the plus side, at least he was still alive and thus available for said arsehole to apologise to...
Fair.
But I guess I'm sad that the bar we must set for police conduct is set at "Well, at least it wasn't a summary execution on the street."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:21 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fair.
But I guess I'm sad that the bar we must set for police conduct is set at "Well, at least it wasn't a summary execution on the street."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:21 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
"A police officer has been asked to apologise to a blind man whom he shot with a Taser when he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword."
Ugh, these fucking guys. From the article:
But somehow - by some unholy low standard - that's not gross incompetence. WTF.
The UK cops may not be murderising people in the street like the US ones, but they are still vulnerable to the corruption that results from a lack of accountabilty.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:53 PM on July 9, 2015
Ugh, these fucking guys. From the article:
Lancashire constabulary held a two-day disciplinary hearing that concluded on Tuesday, following a recommendation from the IPCC that the officer had a case to answer for gross misconduct.The victim was walking away from the cop, and posed no threat to the cop at all. The victim said that the cop did not announce himself, or give any order to drop his 'weapon' or similar. The cop tased him - a 65 year old blind man who had already survived several strokes and was likely obviously not in the pink of health - in the back.
That meeting concluded that Wright was not guilty of gross incompetence but should be issued with a performance improvement notice and that he be told to apologise personally to Farmer.
But somehow - by some unholy low standard - that's not gross incompetence. WTF.
The UK cops may not be murderising people in the street like the US ones, but they are still vulnerable to the corruption that results from a lack of accountabilty.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:53 PM on July 9, 2015
"The UK cops may not be murderising people in the street like the US ones, but they are still vulnerable to the corruption that results from a lack of accountabilty."
Which is a conclusive argument for not arming them at all times.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:58 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Which is a conclusive argument for not arming them at all times.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:58 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
The British police are among the best in the world. My personal estimate is that they are only composed of about 25% dickheads, bullies, racists and/or thugs. That's good going, I think, but still requires much more robust oversight and sanction than the IPCC and CPS currently ensure.
posted by howfar at 5:17 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by howfar at 5:17 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the stats on the PSNI. What about the old RUC, and also, the British Army in NI? Would be interested to see those also.
posted by wuwei at 6:17 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by wuwei at 6:17 PM on July 9, 2015
Switzerland has almost half of their populace armed yet they don't shoot the living shit out of each other.
Militia members are supposed to keep their guns at home, but their army-issued ammunition at a depot. Furthermore ...There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there. Indeed, while the sale of all ammunition is registered at the dealer if purchased at a private store, ammunition purchased at a shooting range is not.
To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the Auszug or the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (weapon carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
citation
Also, they don't have a centuries-long tradition of oppressing a large minority group and the generalized xenophobia that goes with it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Militia members are supposed to keep their guns at home, but their army-issued ammunition at a depot. Furthermore ...There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there. Indeed, while the sale of all ammunition is registered at the dealer if purchased at a private store, ammunition purchased at a shooting range is not.
To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the Auszug or the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (weapon carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
citation
Also, they don't have a centuries-long tradition of oppressing a large minority group and the generalized xenophobia that goes with it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Midsomer Murders shows you don't need guns to kill three to four victims per village per week.
posted by glasseyes at 6:48 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by glasseyes at 6:48 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Midsomer Murders shows you don't need guns to kill three to four victims per village per week.
Good lord. How many candlestick bludgeonings and pillow smotherings can one society absorb?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Good lord. How many candlestick bludgeonings and pillow smotherings can one society absorb?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
The UK cops may not be murderising people in the street like the US ones, but they are still vulnerable to the corruption that results from a lack of accountabilty.
They did for one poor guy by shoving him to death during the London occupy protests.
posted by srboisvert at 8:07 PM on July 9, 2015
They did for one poor guy by shoving him to death during the London occupy protests.
posted by srboisvert at 8:07 PM on July 9, 2015
They did for one poor guy by shoving him to death during the London occupy protests.
Yeah, that was terrible. The cop in question escaped conviction for manslaughter.
However, the Met still fired him for gross misconduct. Compare and contrast to the various US police killing cases. The UK is by no means perfect, but they are still doing substantially better.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:23 PM on July 9, 2015
Yeah, that was terrible. The cop in question escaped conviction for manslaughter.
However, the Met still fired him for gross misconduct. Compare and contrast to the various US police killing cases. The UK is by no means perfect, but they are still doing substantially better.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:23 PM on July 9, 2015
I still get a shock seeing armed policemen at Heathrow. When it was first proposed that policemen be armed at UK airports the sensible suggestion was made that the army should do it, because the English could accept soldiers with guns, but not policemen.
After the Tunisia shootings I saw armed policemen at St Paul's. Such a shame.
posted by Major Tom at 1:26 AM on July 10, 2015
After the Tunisia shootings I saw armed policemen at St Paul's. Such a shame.
posted by Major Tom at 1:26 AM on July 10, 2015
Thing: "The whole of the PSNI is routinely armed. Between mid 2012 and spring 2015, according to these statistics there were a) 12 accidental discharges, b) 16 discharges aimed at killing animals, and c) 2 discharges at an armed assailant."My wife and I visited Derry last autumn (lovely city), and the night before we arrived a PSNI patrol vehicle had been attacked and hit by a hand-held mortar a few hundred yards from our B&B (material damage only). A local group of Republicans had issued a statement exhorting civilians to keep their distance from PSNI vehicles lest they become collateral damage.
And still, you get the fairly restrained statistics above.
posted by brokkr at 1:56 AM on July 10, 2015
UK firearms officers need to periodically re-certified to maintain their authorisation. I can't find chapter and verse but I believe this must happen every 2 months. Authorisation can also be revoked for other reasons, drink, drugs etc. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.
posted by epo at 2:12 AM on July 10, 2015
posted by epo at 2:12 AM on July 10, 2015
Germany has one third of the guns of the US per capita yet their police force has killed ONE PERSON this year
Well, there are 5.5 million legal guns in Germany, owned by 1.45 million people. Obviously there is no exact number of illegal guns. There are estimates of 10 - 20 million illegal weapons, but that includes gas pistols, switchblades, butterfly knives, knives of a certain length, decorative swords which were not blunted, guns with which you can't shoot but failed to get the proper permit, too. And tanks, obviously...
So no, the general populace in Germany is not armed in the way the American populace is.
And the German police have become quite well in de-escalation. Furthermore, every police officer who discharges his/her weapon faces a mandatory internal inquiry. Every police officer who shoots a person, lethal or not, faces a mandatory investigation for manslaughter by public prosecution.
And police officers here are trained 2.5 - 3 years.
posted by ojemine at 9:20 AM on July 10, 2015
Well, there are 5.5 million legal guns in Germany, owned by 1.45 million people. Obviously there is no exact number of illegal guns. There are estimates of 10 - 20 million illegal weapons, but that includes gas pistols, switchblades, butterfly knives, knives of a certain length, decorative swords which were not blunted, guns with which you can't shoot but failed to get the proper permit, too. And tanks, obviously...
So no, the general populace in Germany is not armed in the way the American populace is.
And the German police have become quite well in de-escalation. Furthermore, every police officer who discharges his/her weapon faces a mandatory internal inquiry. Every police officer who shoots a person, lethal or not, faces a mandatory investigation for manslaughter by public prosecution.
And police officers here are trained 2.5 - 3 years.
posted by ojemine at 9:20 AM on July 10, 2015
he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword.
Am I the only one around here who has seen Zatoichi? The threat is real, people
posted by Hoopo at 1:30 PM on July 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one around here who has seen Zatoichi? The threat is real, people
posted by Hoopo at 1:30 PM on July 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Deaths related to the conflict in Northern Ireland by organisation responsible, 1969-2001:
British Security - 363
Irish Security - 5
Loyalist Paramilitary - 1027
Republican Paramilitary -2058
Not known - 79
TOTAL - 3532
The more comprehensive breakdown lists 55 deaths at the hands of the RUC, 8 by the Ulster Defence Regiment (British army infantry unit), 1 by the Ulster Special Constabulary (quasi-military police), 297 by the British Army, 1 by the Royal Air Force, and 1 by the British police.
posted by knapah at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2015
British Security - 363
Irish Security - 5
Loyalist Paramilitary - 1027
Republican Paramilitary -2058
Not known - 79
TOTAL - 3532
The more comprehensive breakdown lists 55 deaths at the hands of the RUC, 8 by the Ulster Defence Regiment (British army infantry unit), 1 by the Ulster Special Constabulary (quasi-military police), 297 by the British Army, 1 by the Royal Air Force, and 1 by the British police.
posted by knapah at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2015
And while the RUC was frequently a brutal, partisan and contemptible organisation, it was also much more dangerous to serve in than the American police. "During the Troubles, 319 members of the RUC were killed and almost 9,000 injured in paramilitary assassinations or attacks". The fact that the RUC was, for much of its existence, such a shitty and brutal agent of state oppression, and still managed not to slaughter people at the rate that US police are doing, while under murderous attack, really underlines that the biggest part of what is wrong with policing in the US is how that policing is done.
posted by howfar at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by howfar at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Comment deleted. Let's stick to the discussion of police and not get into a British Empire atrocities vs the Americas atrocities derail.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:11 AM on July 11, 2015
posted by taz (staff) at 2:11 AM on July 11, 2015
Deaths related to the conflict in Northern Ireland by organisation responsible, 1969-2001:
British Security - 363
Irish Security - 5
US cops have killed 600 people in 2015 to date.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:57 PM on July 12, 2015
British Security - 363
Irish Security - 5
US cops have killed 600 people in 2015 to date.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:57 PM on July 12, 2015
Yes but the population of the U.S. is roughly 200 times the size of NI. So if you were to scale up the figure killed by security forces here to US levels (my maths is shit so I'm just multiplying by 200 and dividing by the 30 years, please correct me if I'm wrong about how you'd work this out!) it would be like 2,450 U.S. deaths each year.
posted by billiebee at 7:23 PM on July 12, 2015
posted by billiebee at 7:23 PM on July 12, 2015
That analysis doesn't really work, billiebee. The US population changed massively from 1969 -2001. In 1969 it was about 200 million, rising to 285 million by 2001. Also, the US wasn't in a civil-war-esque situation during that period, which counts for something.
I went looking for the numbers to give you a proper comparison of police killing rates by population, but then I remembered that the US doesn't even bother collecting the data on how many people its police kill. The figure of 600 (now up to 601) was based on data collated by the Guardian.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:26 PM on July 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I went looking for the numbers to give you a proper comparison of police killing rates by population, but then I remembered that the US doesn't even bother collecting the data on how many people its police kill. The figure of 600 (now up to 601) was based on data collated by the Guardian.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:26 PM on July 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fair enough. The point I'm making is just that people look at the raw numbers here sometimes and think "is that all?" but it has to be taken into context against a tiny population (1.5m roughly during that period). Saying something like "368 lost there in 30 years? Huh, we've killed 600 this year alone" isn't comparing like for like at all. Percentage of population killed would be a more useful metric, and you're right that it says something - and something shocking to me, I didn't know this - that there are no U.S. statistics on police deaths by year.
(Btw just as an added variant, there was wide scale collusion here with the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries, so imagine that on top of the official stats you would have to include a proportion of the killings by a homegrown terrorist organisation among the dead-by-police-hands numbers. I don't even know what the equivalent would be in the U.S.)
posted by billiebee at 3:31 AM on July 13, 2015
(Btw just as an added variant, there was wide scale collusion here with the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries, so imagine that on top of the official stats you would have to include a proportion of the killings by a homegrown terrorist organisation among the dead-by-police-hands numbers. I don't even know what the equivalent would be in the U.S.)
posted by billiebee at 3:31 AM on July 13, 2015
Saying something like "368 lost there in 30 years? Huh, we've killed 600 this year alone" isn't comparing like for like at all.
The Guardian to the rescue, again:
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:26 AM on July 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Guardian to the rescue, again:
According to the World Bank, the US has a per capita intentional homicide rate five times that of the UK.No matter which way you cut it, no matter which measure you use, the US has a problem with police violence that is not replicated in other developed countries.
...
Police in Canada average 25 fatal shootings a year. In California, a state just 10% more populous than Canada, police in 2015 have fatally shot nearly three times as many people in just five months.
...
Police in the US fatally shot more people in one month this year than police in Australia officially reported during a span of 19 years....The US population is nearly 14 times that of Australia...
...
Police in the US have shot and killed more people – in every week this year – than are reportedly shot and killed by German police in an entire year... more unarmed black men (19) have been fatally shot by US police in 2015 than citizens of any race, armed or unarmed, fatally shot in Germany during all of 2010 and 2011 (15)...The US population is roughly four times that of Germany, and according to the World Bank, the US has a per capita intentional homicide rate five times that of Germany.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:26 AM on July 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
To generalise the point I made above, I think that the reason the range of imperfect comparators is useful is that they illustrate that the various external strains on US policing are not sufficient to explain what's wrong with it. They are not particularly good for quantifying how badly US policing is fucked, but they are good for demonstrating that the barriers to remedying its fuckedness are primarily the conditions of US policing specifically, rather than of the US more generally.
posted by howfar at 1:37 PM on July 13, 2015
posted by howfar at 1:37 PM on July 13, 2015
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Even given the difference in scale ... wowzers.
posted by robself at 11:36 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]