she's always been tremendously entertaining
July 17, 2015 12:01 PM Subscribe
When Lana Del Rey included a cover of Nirvana's Heart-Shaped Box in her live show a few years ago, Courtney tweeted at her with some interesting pop trivia. "You do know the song is about my vagina, right?" Courtney wrote. "So umm next time you sing it, think about my vagina will you?" -- Let's rethink Courtney Love, suggests Nick Levine for Vice.
yeah there's a reason for that
And a lot of that reason is Love. I know there is a revisionist story that claims that Cobain essentially wrote the album, but I never bought it, and the evidence lines up with the following:
6. Cobain wrote most of Hole's second album, Live Through This
Kurt sang backing vocals on two songs. He wrote one B-side for Hole (Old Age), uncredited. And that was it. It would be just as accurate – and misleading – to say that Courtney Love wrote most of Nirvana's third album, In Utero: you can certainly see her influence in Kurt's lyrics. Before the pair met, it was often guesswork as to his intentions. Afterwards, his lyrics were far more direct.
So why the claims about Kurt being the real genius behind the album?
I dunno. I'm gonna go ahead and guess "sexism," though.
posted by maxsparber at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [89 favorites]
And a lot of that reason is Love. I know there is a revisionist story that claims that Cobain essentially wrote the album, but I never bought it, and the evidence lines up with the following:
6. Cobain wrote most of Hole's second album, Live Through This
Kurt sang backing vocals on two songs. He wrote one B-side for Hole (Old Age), uncredited. And that was it. It would be just as accurate – and misleading – to say that Courtney Love wrote most of Nirvana's third album, In Utero: you can certainly see her influence in Kurt's lyrics. Before the pair met, it was often guesswork as to his intentions. Afterwards, his lyrics were far more direct.
So why the claims about Kurt being the real genius behind the album?
I dunno. I'm gonna go ahead and guess "sexism," though.
posted by maxsparber at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [89 favorites]
yeah there's a reason for that
care to elaborate?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2015
If she were a guy, a lot of what she's done would be written off as "proper rock star behaviour".
Yup. Nailed it.
posted by monospace at 12:14 PM on July 17, 2015 [50 favorites]
Yup. Nailed it.
posted by monospace at 12:14 PM on July 17, 2015 [50 favorites]
Courtney is an undeniable talent.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:17 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 12:17 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
sorry for the knee jerk reaction. I don't think Cobain wrote Live Through This, I just feel there was definitely some cross polination going on- I was a big fan of the album but Hole's material since then did nothing for me.
posted by Dr-Baa at 12:17 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by Dr-Baa at 12:17 PM on July 17, 2015
"So why the claims about Kurt being the real genius behind the album?"
Probably the same reason that people like to claim that Truman Capote was the real author of To Kill a Mockingbird.
"I dunno. I'm gonna go ahead and guess "sexism," though."
Good enough for me.
posted by komara at 12:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Probably the same reason that people like to claim that Truman Capote was the real author of To Kill a Mockingbird.
"I dunno. I'm gonna go ahead and guess "sexism," though."
Good enough for me.
posted by komara at 12:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pretty on the Inside is a great album.
posted by gwint at 12:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by gwint at 12:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Never liked her; always knew there was big, big intellect trammeled up in All That.
posted by jamjam at 12:22 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by jamjam at 12:22 PM on July 17, 2015
She was great in "The People vs Larry Flynt".
posted by chavenet at 12:26 PM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 12:26 PM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
A PDF of that issue of Rollerderby with the great Courtney Love interview is available for $1.
posted by larrybob at 12:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by larrybob at 12:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Might want to mention the header image on that article is probably NSFW.
posted by tmt at 12:30 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by tmt at 12:30 PM on July 17, 2015
I was a teenage girl with a lot of inchoate feelings about femininity and anger and appropriate behavior when Hole was doing its thing. Which is to say I imprinted on Love really fucking hard and have all these feelings about her. Most of which I can't defend but am not really interested in doing so anyway. I just... have a lot of feelings.
posted by Stacey at 12:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 12:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
She's always gotten more than the usual flak -- because she takes shit from nobody. Live through This is one of the great underrated albums of the 90s. Just like the Pretenders' first three albums are the most underrated of the 80s (Chrissie Hynde has never suffered fools gladly either).
posted by blucevalo at 12:38 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 12:38 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I didn't know she'd disowned America's Sweetheart. I still think Mono is a great song.
posted by corvine at 12:54 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by corvine at 12:54 PM on July 17, 2015
Hole has a shitton of good songs, Courtney Love is a great lyricist and she is fucking awesome and anyone who thinks otherwise can kiss my ass.
Listening to Celebrity Skin and Live Through This , my two favorite Hole albums, I still get that feeling like "ohhhh wow, I have got to hear more of this band" after listening to them for damn near twenty years. Like it's hard to quantify, but there's a "freshness" there in the lyrics and in the arrangement and the delivery that just keeps me coming back.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 1:02 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Listening to Celebrity Skin and Live Through This , my two favorite Hole albums, I still get that feeling like "ohhhh wow, I have got to hear more of this band" after listening to them for damn near twenty years. Like it's hard to quantify, but there's a "freshness" there in the lyrics and in the arrangement and the delivery that just keeps me coming back.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 1:02 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think if you consider Hole's post-Cobain output and Nirvana's pre-Love output, it seems obvious to me that there's a TON of fantastic artistic cross-pollination going on.
While Nevermind was the breakout album, I consider In Utero to be Nirvana's creative apex. It's a horrible shame that Cobain couldn't go on any longer than he did.
posted by chimaera at 1:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
While Nevermind was the breakout album, I consider In Utero to be Nirvana's creative apex. It's a horrible shame that Cobain couldn't go on any longer than he did.
posted by chimaera at 1:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess the comfort I can take in knowing I have neither the talent nor success of Courtney Love is that no-one ever brings my husband into the conversation when discussing the value of my work.
posted by crush-onastick at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
Live Through This was an incredible album for 17-year-old me to listen to; I no longer have a copy but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it still holds up. I love Celebrity Skin too. The line "I'm all I wanna be..a walking study in demonology..." could probably describe the hot fantastic mess I was at 21.
posted by Kitteh at 1:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 1:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Kurt's lyrical fingerprints are all over Live Through This ("Gutless" for example, or "Softer, Softest"). But so what- plenty of artists work with a co-writer, or record songs written for them, and a major part of Hole's success was Courtney, and her incredible voice.
Live Through This is easily one of the top five punk albums of the 1990s.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:20 PM on July 17, 2015
Live Through This is easily one of the top five punk albums of the 1990s.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:20 PM on July 17, 2015
I bought that first album the day it came out. Played it all day in the car and then for my male roommates. They thought it was good. Next day I played it for my girlfriend and she kicked the windshield out when I was doing 65 through the 395 tunnel under DC. It all came in on us. Doll Parts
posted by Mr. Yuck at 1:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 1:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, they did a Young Marble Giants cover at a time when no one even remembered who they were.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:23 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:23 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
She was mates with Joe Strummer. Is there really another recommendation you need?
posted by howfar at 1:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by howfar at 1:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Courtney Love is awesome and I'm so glad she exists. (Btw, if you have hole and nirvana in your Pandora seeds, you hear a lot of nirvana without hole, but a hole song is always followed by a nirvana song. Wtf)
posted by maxwelton at 1:45 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 1:45 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Brief derail to acknowledge that i-D is now owned by Vice. WTF?
Also, among Clueless, Ms. Love and The X-Files, it's like 1995 threw up on the front page today. No complaints here...
posted by pxe2000 at 1:57 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, among Clueless, Ms. Love and The X-Files, it's like 1995 threw up on the front page today. No complaints here...
posted by pxe2000 at 1:57 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
entropicamericana: “Courtney is an undeniable talent.”
I'm not sure if you're linking that because you think it's hilariously bad or what, but I just want to say: it's fucking awesome, completely awesome. She's got an amazing sound that is entirely her own.
posted by koeselitz at 3:46 PM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure if you're linking that because you think it's hilariously bad or what, but I just want to say: it's fucking awesome, completely awesome. She's got an amazing sound that is entirely her own.
posted by koeselitz at 3:46 PM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Courtney is an undeniable talent.
Just so you know, this video is generally presented in the context of extreme misogyny. It's like that fucking tiresome Bill Burr/Yoko Ono video. Every other time i've seen it posted somewhere it was mid thread of some hate-on fest that was a emulsified mixture of how much she sucks and how she tooootally killed Curt and got away with it.
I also bet isolated tracks of quite a few musicians wouldn't sound that great from a live set, especially as someone whose worked live sound.
posted by emptythought at 4:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Just so you know, this video is generally presented in the context of extreme misogyny. It's like that fucking tiresome Bill Burr/Yoko Ono video. Every other time i've seen it posted somewhere it was mid thread of some hate-on fest that was a emulsified mixture of how much she sucks and how she tooootally killed Curt and got away with it.
I also bet isolated tracks of quite a few musicians wouldn't sound that great from a live set, especially as someone whose worked live sound.
posted by emptythought at 4:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Just listened to the entirety of Live Though This (when's the last time I listened to a whole album anyway?). Solid. Thanks for the reminder! This is going to turn into a whole night of 90s riot grrrl.
posted by bobobox at 4:38 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by bobobox at 4:38 PM on July 17, 2015
Live Through This was an incredible album for 17-year-old me to listen to; I no longer have a copy but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it still holds up. I love Celebrity Skin too. The line "I'm all I wanna be..a walking study in demonology..." could probably describe the hot fantastic mess I was at 21.
It still holds up. Both do.
posted by discopolo at 5:13 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
It still holds up. Both do.
posted by discopolo at 5:13 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh my god I hate this thing where people try to give Cobain credit for everything Love did well. This is nothing but sexism, and super irritating. She may be a train wreck, but she's a major talent in her own right.
posted by frumiousb at 5:25 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 5:25 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Courtney Love absolutely has talent. Live Through This is a phenomenal album and it is hers. Love herself has always seemed like a toxically awful human being to me, and even seeing her name in print puts me on edge, but credit where credit is due.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 5:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pretty on the Inside is a great album.
So is Celebrity Skin.
The way Courtney is treated in relation to the kind of hagiography male rock stars receive makes me furious. I don't doubt that she's difficult to know, but that would also describe any one of her male peers, all of whom are lionized for being "intense" or "deep" or some such variety of romanticism. I highly recommend Anwen Crawford's Live Through This, from the 33 1/3 series.
posted by jokeefe at 5:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
So is Celebrity Skin.
The way Courtney is treated in relation to the kind of hagiography male rock stars receive makes me furious. I don't doubt that she's difficult to know, but that would also describe any one of her male peers, all of whom are lionized for being "intense" or "deep" or some such variety of romanticism. I highly recommend Anwen Crawford's Live Through This, from the 33 1/3 series.
posted by jokeefe at 5:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
it's fucking awesome, completely awesome. She's got an amazing sound that is entirely her own.
Yes. Her vocals are excellent on that. If the worst criticism one can level at Love is that she apparently once maybe played an out of tune guitar then, yes, she is amazing.
posted by howfar at 5:38 PM on July 17, 2015
Yes. Her vocals are excellent on that. If the worst criticism one can level at Love is that she apparently once maybe played an out of tune guitar then, yes, she is amazing.
posted by howfar at 5:38 PM on July 17, 2015
Not giving Cobain credit for any of it whatsoever. But I'd rather hear two trash cans banging together than any of Love's singing or guitar playing.
Having the opinion that Love is sort of obnoxious with her ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism, as well as having little talent does not a sexist make.
posted by tunewell at 5:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Having the opinion that Love is sort of obnoxious with her ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism, as well as having little talent does not a sexist make.
posted by tunewell at 5:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Having the opinion that Love is sort of obnoxious with her ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism, as well as having little talent does not a sexist make.
I think that what one has to recognise is that, even if in one's particular case that's true, a lot of the hate expressed about Love is founded in misogyny. So when even a completely non misogynist opinion about Love is expressed, it is indistinguishable from the misogynist noise it blends in with. And given that there is really nothing to be gained from criticising Love, maybe it's best to save one's bile for targets that can be criticised without the risk of that criticism giving unwarranted offence or comfort to those who might misunderstand it.
posted by howfar at 6:13 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think that what one has to recognise is that, even if in one's particular case that's true, a lot of the hate expressed about Love is founded in misogyny. So when even a completely non misogynist opinion about Love is expressed, it is indistinguishable from the misogynist noise it blends in with. And given that there is really nothing to be gained from criticising Love, maybe it's best to save one's bile for targets that can be criticised without the risk of that criticism giving unwarranted offence or comfort to those who might misunderstand it.
posted by howfar at 6:13 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Live Through This is an awesome album. You can feel the intensity of her pain. She came to town not long after Kurt's death and it was one of the most memorable show's I've ever seen. I will always respect her for being out front with her feelings and owning every bit of her personality in all of it's flawed glory. She is a treasure.
posted by evilDoug at 6:17 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by evilDoug at 6:17 PM on July 17, 2015
This is going to turn into a whole night of 90s riot grrrl.
Bikini Kill!
BIKINI KILL!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Bikini Kill!
BIKINI KILL!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
with her ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism
Yes, because that's not exactly how men become rock stars. Even Morrissey does ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:24 PM on July 17, 2015 [14 favorites]
Yes, because that's not exactly how men become rock stars. Even Morrissey does ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:24 PM on July 17, 2015 [14 favorites]
Morrissey is all about ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism. Courtney Love may be a terrible person, but Live Through This is amazing, and if I were to start typing out a list of all of the terrible people who were also a part of at least one classic album, I would be typing well into next week, into next year.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:46 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 6:46 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
a lot of the hate expressed about Love is founded in misogyny. So when even a completely non misogynist opinion about Love is expressed, it is indistinguishable from the misogynist noise it blends in with. Maybe it's best to save one's bile for targets that can be criticised without the risk of that criticism giving unwarranted offence or comfort to those who might misunderstand it.
I really hope you're kidding around about stifling artistic opinion. If we wish to treat artists with equality then free and open opinion regarding their talents and productions is essential.
posted by tunewell at 7:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really hope you're kidding around about stifling artistic opinion. If we wish to treat artists with equality then free and open opinion regarding their talents and productions is essential.
posted by tunewell at 7:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
with her ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism
Yes, because that's not exactly how men become rock stars. Even Morrissey does ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism.
Some men do become stars that way some don't. Some women do and some don't. What's your point?
posted by tunewell at 7:22 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, because that's not exactly how men become rock stars. Even Morrissey does ego-driven-look-at-me exhibitionism.
Some men do become stars that way some don't. Some women do and some don't. What's your point?
posted by tunewell at 7:22 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If we wish to treat artists with equality then free and open opinion regarding their talents and productions is essential.
The problem is that I don't think there's any way for your freely expressed opinion to be usefully understood. You have every right to express your view, but the misogynist nature of the discourse around Love has, I think, already stifled the meaning of such views. That's really problematic, and I don't think it is particularly useful to speak and act as if we're living in a world where the conversation hasn't been poisoned by misogynist bullshit. Sometimes the best possible option is probably to refrain from exercising the right to free expression, irksome though that absolutely is.
posted by howfar at 7:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
The problem is that I don't think there's any way for your freely expressed opinion to be usefully understood. You have every right to express your view, but the misogynist nature of the discourse around Love has, I think, already stifled the meaning of such views. That's really problematic, and I don't think it is particularly useful to speak and act as if we're living in a world where the conversation hasn't been poisoned by misogynist bullshit. Sometimes the best possible option is probably to refrain from exercising the right to free expression, irksome though that absolutely is.
posted by howfar at 7:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
What's your point?
My point is that nobody gets dragged out of hiding to be a rock star. They did that hustling themselves, or they opted out before they made it.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
My point is that nobody gets dragged out of hiding to be a rock star. They did that hustling themselves, or they opted out before they made it.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
The problem is that I don't think there's any way for your freely expressed opinion to be usefully understood.
Useful to whom? I think opinion is useful to those expressing opinions, both positive and critical, who are discussing a piece of art. If the person hearing the opinion infers a fictitious intention behind it, well, that's something with which they must come to terms.
I love and hate many artists works from both men and women. I do not think one sex is better or worse at singing/playing/talking/being clever/etc.
posted by tunewell at 8:00 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Useful to whom? I think opinion is useful to those expressing opinions, both positive and critical, who are discussing a piece of art. If the person hearing the opinion infers a fictitious intention behind it, well, that's something with which they must come to terms.
I love and hate many artists works from both men and women. I do not think one sex is better or worse at singing/playing/talking/being clever/etc.
posted by tunewell at 8:00 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Violet is one of my most favourite songs of all time. Probably one of my #1 most listened to. I heard and liked a lot of Hole before that, but somehow Violet slipped for me since I didn't really listen to albums much, or I didn't bother to pay attention to it? I first heard the song properly through Supernatural fandom, actually, from Luminosity's Women's Work fanvid, and it sold me on Love and that song forever. I felt viscerally understood, buttressed. FEELINGS. So many feelings about it and Hole and yeah, FEELINGS.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:03 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:03 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
What's your point?
My point is that nobody gets dragged out of hiding to be a rock star. They did that hustling themselves, or they opted out before they made it.
This is true but still doesn't address my point. Sure you need ego and hustle to get on a stage. But plenty of "rock stars", both male and female, aren't obnoxious about it in the way Love is.
Your opinion obviously differs and that's fine. But it's misleading to say all rock stars act obnoxious in the way Courtney does.
posted by tunewell at 8:04 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
My point is that nobody gets dragged out of hiding to be a rock star. They did that hustling themselves, or they opted out before they made it.
This is true but still doesn't address my point. Sure you need ego and hustle to get on a stage. But plenty of "rock stars", both male and female, aren't obnoxious about it in the way Love is.
Your opinion obviously differs and that's fine. But it's misleading to say all rock stars act obnoxious in the way Courtney does.
posted by tunewell at 8:04 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
But it's misleading to say all rock stars act obnoxious in the way Courtney does.
#notallrockstars
What's obnoxious about her? She has a substance abuse problem, which is neither obnoxious nor unusual for rock stars. She's got an ego, which is more obnoxious in a woman. She's got a fuck load of talent, ditto, significantly more obnoxious in women. She's got some opinions about stuff. Right or wrong, people tend to get more pissy about women's opinions.
I have never heard a critique of Love that wasn't deeply informed by misogyny. You may be unaware of how much more harshly women are judged for behavior that wouldn't blink an eye in men, but I hope you'll consider the difference now that it's been pointed out to you.
posted by Mavri at 8:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
#notallrockstars
What's obnoxious about her? She has a substance abuse problem, which is neither obnoxious nor unusual for rock stars. She's got an ego, which is more obnoxious in a woman. She's got a fuck load of talent, ditto, significantly more obnoxious in women. She's got some opinions about stuff. Right or wrong, people tend to get more pissy about women's opinions.
I have never heard a critique of Love that wasn't deeply informed by misogyny. You may be unaware of how much more harshly women are judged for behavior that wouldn't blink an eye in men, but I hope you'll consider the difference now that it's been pointed out to you.
posted by Mavri at 8:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
I was one of those teenage girls in the 90s who found great solace in Courtney Love, especially in my extremely angsty freshman year of high school which was prep school, where I didn't fit in and felt weird and ugly and superior to everyone else and gross and angry and correct. She inspired me to wear slips to school (which had a strict dress code) as dresses, over ripped-up tights, and once, preposterously, to write "whore" in lipstick on my chest in the bathroom before marching in to Algebra II Honors, sitting down, and taking a math test. I can't remember or begin to explain why; teenagers are ludicrous and I was the worst.
She also inspired me to play guitar and write songs. I still do those things. Some Hole songs still make me cry. Sometimes I sit around and play covers at home, to amuse myself and manmillipede. When I played "Violet" one day, I got a standing ovation--he said it was the best I ever played, because I really knew the song and meant it. I did! I do!
posted by millipede at 9:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
She also inspired me to play guitar and write songs. I still do those things. Some Hole songs still make me cry. Sometimes I sit around and play covers at home, to amuse myself and manmillipede. When I played "Violet" one day, I got a standing ovation--he said it was the best I ever played, because I really knew the song and meant it. I did! I do!
posted by millipede at 9:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
Mavri-
i find her yammering and complaining at her concerts and in interviews quite obnoxious. That doesn't make me a sexist. It's a false equivalency. There are plenty of male rock stars I find equally or more obnoxious (Axl Rose, Billy Corgan, Paul Stanley to name a couple).
But have at it if that's what you believe. I'll refrain from anymore comments on this thread.
posted by tunewell at 9:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
i find her yammering and complaining at her concerts and in interviews quite obnoxious. That doesn't make me a sexist. It's a false equivalency. There are plenty of male rock stars I find equally or more obnoxious (Axl Rose, Billy Corgan, Paul Stanley to name a couple).
But have at it if that's what you believe. I'll refrain from anymore comments on this thread.
posted by tunewell at 9:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
One thing I learned recently is that she briefly fronted Faith No More in the early/mid 80s.
Didn't know she was buds with Strummer, though. Throw Kurdt in the mix and that is a fuckton of success and talent who saw something in her, and had a good eye for working with talented people in general.
Personally, was never much of a fan, but this hand-wringing and the usual dismissals are a bit beyond me.
posted by lkc at 10:08 PM on July 17, 2015
Didn't know she was buds with Strummer, though. Throw Kurdt in the mix and that is a fuckton of success and talent who saw something in her, and had a good eye for working with talented people in general.
Personally, was never much of a fan, but this hand-wringing and the usual dismissals are a bit beyond me.
posted by lkc at 10:08 PM on July 17, 2015
Obnoxious?
posted by maxwelton at 10:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
unpleasant in a way that makes people feel offended, annoyed, or disgustedAre you sure you didn't mean "mildly irritated"?
posted by maxwelton at 10:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've read Nirvana lyrics and I am surprised to hear that they are "about" anything.
posted by dgaicun at 1:32 AM on July 18, 2015
posted by dgaicun at 1:32 AM on July 18, 2015
The problem is that I don't think there's any way for your freely expressed opinion to be usefully understood.
the problem is that people are turning her into a social and political icon who can't be criticized for her music, because misogyny
people should be able to dislike music without having that kind of accusation leveled against them or being told that it isn't useful because of what sexist people have said
guess what? - from a musical standpoint, misogyny and anti-misogyny are worthless as opinions, as they're irrelevant to the actual musical qualities being discussed
posted by pyramid termite at 4:22 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
the problem is that people are turning her into a social and political icon who can't be criticized for her music, because misogyny
people should be able to dislike music without having that kind of accusation leveled against them or being told that it isn't useful because of what sexist people have said
guess what? - from a musical standpoint, misogyny and anti-misogyny are worthless as opinions, as they're irrelevant to the actual musical qualities being discussed
posted by pyramid termite at 4:22 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
the problem is that people are turning her into a social and political icon who can't be criticized for her music, because misogyny
I just don't think being able to say "your favourite band sucks" without being told why it's problematic is that big a deal compared to the torrent of shit vast numbers of women have to put up with just for opening their mouths and expressing even the most mildly controversial opinion. It's the vocal misogynists who've spoiled this for everyone, not those of us pointing out why it's spoiled.
You can definitely express your opinion. And, when I think you should choose not to, I will definitely express that opinion and explain why. Free speech includes the freedom to criticise the choice to speak.
posted by howfar at 5:14 AM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I just don't think being able to say "your favourite band sucks" without being told why it's problematic is that big a deal compared to the torrent of shit vast numbers of women have to put up with just for opening their mouths and expressing even the most mildly controversial opinion. It's the vocal misogynists who've spoiled this for everyone, not those of us pointing out why it's spoiled.
You can definitely express your opinion. And, when I think you should choose not to, I will definitely express that opinion and explain why. Free speech includes the freedom to criticise the choice to speak.
posted by howfar at 5:14 AM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
TBH, /every/ Nirvana song, and a few Soundgarden ones, are about her vulva. That one is about her vagina proper is true, but it is an easy mistake to make.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:46 AM on July 18, 2015
posted by clvrmnky at 6:46 AM on July 18, 2015
TBH, /every/ Nirvana song, and a few Soundgarden ones, are about her vulva.
Don't forget the seventh Beatles album.
posted by howfar at 7:09 AM on July 18, 2015
Don't forget the seventh Beatles album.
posted by howfar at 7:09 AM on July 18, 2015
from a musical standpoint, misogyny and anti-misogyny are worthless as opinions
I disagree with this quite a bit, but even if it was true - what's your point? It's not as though we as a society are very good at judging women's art solely on its merits.
Consider how many people (mostly men) just don't listen to women's music, and how people try to justify this by women being lesser artists who don't sing about the same universal truths that men do. Now consider how many people know this is wrong, but still have some of these subconscious biases because they've been steeped in them since birth.
Unfortunately, this makes it very hard to determine when criticism of women's music is "objective" - and in fact, objectivity is a myth. There are undoubtedly some people who don't like Love or Love's music and it has nothing to do with her being a woman1, but the thing is, the number of people who admit to sexism against female artists isn't enough to explain the listening patterns that exist.
We can't just have a normal, unpoisoned conversation about the merits of a female artist's music; we can't magically forget how much criticism of women's art has gendered motivations, especially for an artist like Love, where much of the criticism has been explicitly gendered or full of double-standards. Maybe it's possible in a setting where there is a lot of familiarity and trust, but this is a public internet forum.
So yeah, the well's been poisoned. If you want to have a go at Love, it's foolish to think you don't have to contend with all of that history and prejudice out there in the conversation already.
1 I don't like it because I'm not generally a fan of the genre, for example.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:42 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I disagree with this quite a bit, but even if it was true - what's your point? It's not as though we as a society are very good at judging women's art solely on its merits.
Consider how many people (mostly men) just don't listen to women's music, and how people try to justify this by women being lesser artists who don't sing about the same universal truths that men do. Now consider how many people know this is wrong, but still have some of these subconscious biases because they've been steeped in them since birth.
Unfortunately, this makes it very hard to determine when criticism of women's music is "objective" - and in fact, objectivity is a myth. There are undoubtedly some people who don't like Love or Love's music and it has nothing to do with her being a woman1, but the thing is, the number of people who admit to sexism against female artists isn't enough to explain the listening patterns that exist.
We can't just have a normal, unpoisoned conversation about the merits of a female artist's music; we can't magically forget how much criticism of women's art has gendered motivations, especially for an artist like Love, where much of the criticism has been explicitly gendered or full of double-standards. Maybe it's possible in a setting where there is a lot of familiarity and trust, but this is a public internet forum.
So yeah, the well's been poisoned. If you want to have a go at Love, it's foolish to think you don't have to contend with all of that history and prejudice out there in the conversation already.
1 I don't like it because I'm not generally a fan of the genre, for example.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:42 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I, for one, refuse to play the "if you criticize a woman artist you are forwarding the misogynist agenda" game. Sorry. You can think whatever you like about my attitudes towards women but you know nothing about me. To assign my motivations based on your own agenda is an ugly prejudice.
posted by tunewell at 7:49 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tunewell at 7:49 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I think people are saying here (over and over again) is that regardless of whether you personally are taking a stance founded in misogyny, you are stepping into a decades-long debate where the arguments on your side typically have been based in mysogyny, and so when you lend yourself to their cause you both come off as misogynistic and also perpetuate that injustice at least a little bit. It can't really be helped.
Your opinions don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just ignore the cultural context around your statements, or expect others to do so. Sometimes, even when you have a right to express yourself, it can be hard to do so without looking like an asshole. Part of being a mature adult in a society of people is knowing when the right thing to do is to just keep your mouth shut. Sure you have a right to open it, and I think folks here anyway are happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that your motivation is not intentionally misogynistic. However your statements do perpetuate misogyny, whether you want them to or not, and you should be aware of that and act accordingly. Being able to say that you really don't like Courtney Love's music is not worth fueling societal injustice over, even though of course you gave a right to say that.
The above comment is lacking some nuance, of course. This is not a black-and-white issue, and there are edge cases, etc. And of course there are matters of scale. But you seem to be having a hard time grasping or at least accepting the central idea, so I wanted to try and express it very clearly. It is also worth pointing out that the unwillingness or inability to recognize the unintended side-effects of one's words and actions is one of the classic hallmarks of unexamined privilege, and you might benefit from a little bit of introspection in that area. I say this as someone who by accident of birth is easily in the top one percent of privilege worldwide.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:15 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Your opinions don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just ignore the cultural context around your statements, or expect others to do so. Sometimes, even when you have a right to express yourself, it can be hard to do so without looking like an asshole. Part of being a mature adult in a society of people is knowing when the right thing to do is to just keep your mouth shut. Sure you have a right to open it, and I think folks here anyway are happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that your motivation is not intentionally misogynistic. However your statements do perpetuate misogyny, whether you want them to or not, and you should be aware of that and act accordingly. Being able to say that you really don't like Courtney Love's music is not worth fueling societal injustice over, even though of course you gave a right to say that.
The above comment is lacking some nuance, of course. This is not a black-and-white issue, and there are edge cases, etc. And of course there are matters of scale. But you seem to be having a hard time grasping or at least accepting the central idea, so I wanted to try and express it very clearly. It is also worth pointing out that the unwillingness or inability to recognize the unintended side-effects of one's words and actions is one of the classic hallmarks of unexamined privilege, and you might benefit from a little bit of introspection in that area. I say this as someone who by accident of birth is easily in the top one percent of privilege worldwide.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:15 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I, for one, refuse to play the "if you criticize a woman artist you are forwarding the misogynist agenda" game.
No one has said all female artists should be immune from criticism. No one has said that all criticism of female artists is misogynist. Instead of reading and considering what people have actually wrote here, you have shut down in a defensive flurry of BUT FREE SPEECH and HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MISOGYNIST, YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
Now, I agree that I don't know you well enough to know if you're a misogynist, but this is a familiar behavior that generally does not predict an ability or willingness to engage thoughtfully with these kinds of issues.
To assign my motivations based on your own agenda is an ugly prejudice.
Clumsily attempting to co-opt the word "prejudice" to describe something that isn't prejudice and hasn't actually even happened is an ugly behavior and does your argument no favors.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:19 AM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
No one has said all female artists should be immune from criticism. No one has said that all criticism of female artists is misogynist. Instead of reading and considering what people have actually wrote here, you have shut down in a defensive flurry of BUT FREE SPEECH and HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MISOGYNIST, YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
Now, I agree that I don't know you well enough to know if you're a misogynist, but this is a familiar behavior that generally does not predict an ability or willingness to engage thoughtfully with these kinds of issues.
To assign my motivations based on your own agenda is an ugly prejudice.
Clumsily attempting to co-opt the word "prejudice" to describe something that isn't prejudice and hasn't actually even happened is an ugly behavior and does your argument no favors.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:19 AM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
isn't the fact that we're having this discussion show an ability to engage in thoughtful discussion. I'm really baffled by your thoughts here.
And I'm not co-opting anything. I simply said I find Love obnoxious and the misogyny label came out.
posted by tunewell at 8:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I'm not co-opting anything. I simply said I find Love obnoxious and the misogyny label came out.
posted by tunewell at 8:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: tunewell, you've made your point that you really don't like Courtney Love. Maybe let it rest at this point and let's back this away from "what does tunewell personally think about Courtney Love" since that's not an interesting topic of itself. Folks are free to talk about general dynamics they see in discussions of Love and what's going on when people generally say they don't like her.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:36 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:36 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Even if you are a completely misogyny-free guy, please don't jump into a post about any musical artist to tell everyone how they suck. There are plenty of musical artists I can't stand. I just skip posts about them. Musical taste is completely subjective. Nobody is right or wrong for liking or not liking what they like or don't like.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:47 AM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by double block and bleed at 8:47 AM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
She's brilliant. Her music, voice, persona. It's outrageous that we're so rapturous of Kurt and all the Great Men of 90's rock and so disparaging and dismissive of all the women rockers of the period.
"Malibu" is one of the greatest songs of the 90s and has soaring pop songwriting that Kurt would've been too scared to attempt, with his woe-is-me-fame-is-the-worst facade that he was always putting up. And her lyrics have a direct emotion and ache to them that Kurt tended to shy away from. They end up being so evocative of the personal devastation of that period and the walking-wounded mentality of that scene in the wake of so many deaths and overdoses. "How are you so burnt / when you're barely on fire?"
Props to the other members of Hole who tend to get erased in discussions about the band. I recommend Hit So Hard, which is a documentary about Hole drummer Patty Schemel and her struggles with addiction, but will appeal strongly to anyone who wants to get some insight into the band.
posted by naju at 9:35 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
"Malibu" is one of the greatest songs of the 90s and has soaring pop songwriting that Kurt would've been too scared to attempt, with his woe-is-me-fame-is-the-worst facade that he was always putting up. And her lyrics have a direct emotion and ache to them that Kurt tended to shy away from. They end up being so evocative of the personal devastation of that period and the walking-wounded mentality of that scene in the wake of so many deaths and overdoses. "How are you so burnt / when you're barely on fire?"
Props to the other members of Hole who tend to get erased in discussions about the band. I recommend Hit So Hard, which is a documentary about Hole drummer Patty Schemel and her struggles with addiction, but will appeal strongly to anyone who wants to get some insight into the band.
posted by naju at 9:35 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
As a result of this thread I checked out Live Through This through my library. It's an album which I have never listened to other than whatever singles hit the radio. When I was younger I strongly preferred male vocalists so I just kind of blew off Hole (and ... you know, all the other bands with female lead singers as well). This thread has convinced me I ought to really give her a chance, and just two tracks in I think I'm convinced.
posted by komara at 8:05 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by komara at 8:05 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will always LOVE (ha, I see what I did there) Live Through This.
This thread has taught me quite a bit, and I'm grateful.
That said, has anyone seen the Soaked in Bleach documentary? I mean, sexist dramatizations aside, in her own words she comes off looking...really not good.
posted by riverlife at 4:17 PM on July 25, 2015
This thread has taught me quite a bit, and I'm grateful.
That said, has anyone seen the Soaked in Bleach documentary? I mean, sexist dramatizations aside, in her own words she comes off looking...really not good.
posted by riverlife at 4:17 PM on July 25, 2015
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yeah there's a reason for that
posted by Dr-Baa at 12:09 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]