The destruction of Penn Station
July 21, 2015 6:19 AM Subscribe
We will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed. So wrote Ada Louise Huxtable in a NY Times editorial condemning the destruction of Penn Station.
The outrage was a major catalyst for the architectural preservation movement in the United States. In 1965, the New York Landmarks Law was passed, which helped save the iconic Grand Central Terminal and more than 30,000 other buildings from similar fates.
Of all the places lost to history in NYC, this is the one that I'm most upset I was born too late to see. Plus the fact that it was replaced by the horrible MSG is insult added to injury.
posted by hobgadling at 6:44 AM on July 21, 2015
posted by hobgadling at 6:44 AM on July 21, 2015
There are some pretty cool bas-reliefs in the new shithole that reinterpret a lot of the design of the original Penn Station, including a striking one of a Doric column knocked over and smashed to pieces.
posted by vogon_poet at 6:47 AM on July 21, 2015
posted by vogon_poet at 6:47 AM on July 21, 2015
Some days when I come into NYC through Grand Central and out through Penn, the comparison between the two is an outrageous embarrassment. The East Side Access project to bring LIRR trains to Grand Central can't come fast enough.
I can't recommend Lorraine Diehl's The Late, Great Penn Station enough (or any of her books for a that matter).
posted by dr_dank at 6:48 AM on July 21, 2015
I can't recommend Lorraine Diehl's The Late, Great Penn Station enough (or any of her books for a that matter).
posted by dr_dank at 6:48 AM on July 21, 2015
Fun fact: one of the original Penn Station granite eagles stands watch behind a wrought iron fence on the 7th ave side.
posted by dr_dank at 6:50 AM on July 21, 2015
posted by dr_dank at 6:50 AM on July 21, 2015
I love the current Penn Station. It's a warren. It's a lot of different things on top of each other. It's kind of vulgar. It's New York. You want columns, go to the Acropolis.
posted by escabeche at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fifties and sixties were such a terrible time for historic preservation; every city in the country was obsessed with ripping out old buildings and putting in giant hideous super-blocks in the name of progress.
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
There was a really good episode of 99% Invisible about this called "Penn Station Sucks."
posted by Maaik at 7:19 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Maaik at 7:19 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's New York.
But it *was* New York, for fifty-three years. The current Penn Station has been around for fifty-two. The old Penn Station was New York longer than the current Penn Station has been.
After leaving the city, I commuted through Penn Station every day, and did that for a couple years. It was really depressing. The warren aspects of it are only interesting in small passing bites. As part of everyday life, it's just awful. When I see pictures of the old Penn Station, or when I have to go through Grand Central, I always think about how much better those beautiful environments would have been for my general demeanor during those commutes.
posted by odin53 at 7:29 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
But it *was* New York, for fifty-three years. The current Penn Station has been around for fifty-two. The old Penn Station was New York longer than the current Penn Station has been.
After leaving the city, I commuted through Penn Station every day, and did that for a couple years. It was really depressing. The warren aspects of it are only interesting in small passing bites. As part of everyday life, it's just awful. When I see pictures of the old Penn Station, or when I have to go through Grand Central, I always think about how much better those beautiful environments would have been for my general demeanor during those commutes.
posted by odin53 at 7:29 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
I love the current Penn Station. It's a warren. It's a lot of different things on top of each other. It's kind of vulgar. It's New York. You want columns, go to the Acropolis.Considering how Boston's South Station managed to preserve all of its architectural features AND make way for a food court with a Cosi, a Sbarro's and a China Wok, along with festooning most of that grand and dramatic interior with tacky advertising banners for a local business school; I think that you're missing out on the possibility that a modern Penn Station with an Olive Garden franchise smack in the middle of the terminal floor and huge massive Chase bank ads could be even more vulgar than your wildest dreams.
posted by bl1nk at 7:33 AM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
The fifties and sixties sucked for historic preservation for a few completely rational reasons:
1. This stuff was half as old as it would be today -- even by American standards, it's hard to argue the historic value of something that was built within peoples' lifetimes.
2. Cities were still functioning, normal things. Modern activist-citizens are less concerned with making it work for the future than they are obsessed with its idealized past. In the 50s and 60s it was still just where people lived. If you have to tear something down to make room for progress, that's normal. The problem was, it coincided with all of the other changes that destroyed the cities: suburbs, race, manufacturing decline, etc.
If Penn Station had been followed by 30 years of growth and improvement rather than 30 years of decline and blight, the conversation would be different.
posted by mikewebkist at 7:33 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
1. This stuff was half as old as it would be today -- even by American standards, it's hard to argue the historic value of something that was built within peoples' lifetimes.
2. Cities were still functioning, normal things. Modern activist-citizens are less concerned with making it work for the future than they are obsessed with its idealized past. In the 50s and 60s it was still just where people lived. If you have to tear something down to make room for progress, that's normal. The problem was, it coincided with all of the other changes that destroyed the cities: suburbs, race, manufacturing decline, etc.
If Penn Station had been followed by 30 years of growth and improvement rather than 30 years of decline and blight, the conversation would be different.
posted by mikewebkist at 7:33 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Extraordinary to think there was once an America where we built things like Penn, the Brooklyn Bridge, or glorious monstrosities like the City Hall Post Office (demolished 1939). However it must be said that these things were made in a Robber Baron era of cheap labor and seemingly limitless natural resources. Still, it's hard to say that that's worse than the looted, hollowed out reality we have now, where standing capital gets cashed out or mortgaged, the cash pocketed and one way or another, the poor and working people stuck with the payments.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:03 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:03 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
If Penn Station had been followed by 30 years of growth and improvement rather than 30 years of decline and blight, the conversation would be different.
I really doubt it.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:06 AM on July 21, 2015
I really doubt it.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:06 AM on July 21, 2015
With the exception of Grand Central Terminal, pretty much every single entry point into and out of NYC is straight up embarrassing. Every single other American city manages to have a decent airport or train station (not to mention a decent way to get in and out of them, like a proper taxi stand or decent public transport to and from). But LaGuardia, JFK, Penn Station -- one is worse than the other. I always feel like I have to apologize to anyone visiting, and I sometimes do, because the first thing they had to see on their visit was one of those unutterably depressing places. In fact, let me apologize now to anyone visiting here in the next year.
(And don't even get me started on the Javits Center. Just don't.)
posted by holborne at 8:14 AM on July 21, 2015
(And don't even get me started on the Javits Center. Just don't.)
posted by holborne at 8:14 AM on July 21, 2015
Cities were still functioning, normal things. Modern activist-citizens are less concerned with making it work for the future than they are obsessed with its idealized past. In the 50s and 60s it was still just where people lived. If you have to tear something down to make room for progress, that's normal. The problem was, it coincided with all of the other changes that destroyed the cities: suburbs, race, manufacturing decline, etc.
This seems precisely backwards to me. In the fifties and sixties designers were doing everything they could to take the "functioning, normal" spaces "where people lived" and replacing them with something they'd decided was better. People are less likely to do this kind of thing now because they're much more confident about the future of cities.
posted by ostro at 8:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
This seems precisely backwards to me. In the fifties and sixties designers were doing everything they could to take the "functioning, normal" spaces "where people lived" and replacing them with something they'd decided was better. People are less likely to do this kind of thing now because they're much more confident about the future of cities.
posted by ostro at 8:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Late last week Alon Levy argued that replacing the current Penn Station with, literally, a hole in the ground would be better than what we have now.
(I mostly agree with him, though I still think there would need to be some kind of headhouse for long-distance travelers).
posted by thecaddy at 8:49 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
(I mostly agree with him, though I still think there would need to be some kind of headhouse for long-distance travelers).
posted by thecaddy at 8:49 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Cities were still functioning, normal things. Modern activist-citizens are less concerned with making it work for the future than they are obsessed with its idealized past.
So the outraged protests at the time came from whom, exactly--time travelers?
posted by yoink at 9:28 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
So the outraged protests at the time came from whom, exactly--time travelers?
posted by yoink at 9:28 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
So the outraged protests at the time came from whom, exactly--time travelers?
a minority, clearly. median voter theorem, etc.
posted by mikewebkist at 9:32 AM on July 21, 2015
a minority, clearly. median voter theorem, etc.
posted by mikewebkist at 9:32 AM on July 21, 2015
There are actually a surprising number of architectural elements from the original Penn Station left, if you know what to look for. For example, staircases with the original brass handrails, on track 14, and the low sloping staircase towards tracks 18 & 19.
A Proposal For Penn Station and Madison Square Garden (NYT 2012)
Four Plans for a New Penn Station without MSG
posted by monospace at 9:46 AM on July 21, 2015
A Proposal For Penn Station and Madison Square Garden (NYT 2012)
Four Plans for a New Penn Station without MSG
posted by monospace at 9:46 AM on July 21, 2015
Some days when I come into NYC through Grand Central and out through Penn, the comparison between the two is an outrageous embarrassment.
There's a strange, diverging herd behavior at work in the two as well. At Penn, commuters gather beneath the boards waiting to find out which tracks their trains are on. About ten minutes before departure, the boards deliver their decision and there is a sudden stampede for the appropriate doors.
At Grand Central, the on-boarding tends to be a more leisured affair. I'm not old enough to know if this was the case at the old Penn, but I would be interested to find out.
This stuff was half as old as it would be today -- even by American standards, it's hard to argue the historic value of something that was built within peoples' lifetimes.
It's not simply the age at issue - it's the aesthetics. Old Penn was magnificent. Modern Penn - not so much. It's hard to argue that the place is even utilitarian. I've been through it regularly for years and still find it confusing, and never charming.
Of course, at bottom the destruction was a business decision. The Pennsylvania Railroad had been losing money badly since the end of WWII (their first operating loss came in 1946) and claimed that the building cost more in upkeep than Penn Central could afford, so better to keep the rails running and make a few bucks on the air rights. It's not as if anyone else was going to pony up the money. Even so, it took a number of years from demolition to the contract to put up the new Madison Square Garden. Business can be cruel.
In addition to Ms Diehl's book mentioned above, the whole affair and contemporary pictures are the subject of a book, The Destruction of Penn Station.
posted by BWA at 9:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's a strange, diverging herd behavior at work in the two as well. At Penn, commuters gather beneath the boards waiting to find out which tracks their trains are on. About ten minutes before departure, the boards deliver their decision and there is a sudden stampede for the appropriate doors.
At Grand Central, the on-boarding tends to be a more leisured affair. I'm not old enough to know if this was the case at the old Penn, but I would be interested to find out.
This stuff was half as old as it would be today -- even by American standards, it's hard to argue the historic value of something that was built within peoples' lifetimes.
It's not simply the age at issue - it's the aesthetics. Old Penn was magnificent. Modern Penn - not so much. It's hard to argue that the place is even utilitarian. I've been through it regularly for years and still find it confusing, and never charming.
Of course, at bottom the destruction was a business decision. The Pennsylvania Railroad had been losing money badly since the end of WWII (their first operating loss came in 1946) and claimed that the building cost more in upkeep than Penn Central could afford, so better to keep the rails running and make a few bucks on the air rights. It's not as if anyone else was going to pony up the money. Even so, it took a number of years from demolition to the contract to put up the new Madison Square Garden. Business can be cruel.
In addition to Ms Diehl's book mentioned above, the whole affair and contemporary pictures are the subject of a book, The Destruction of Penn Station.
posted by BWA at 9:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fifties and sixties were such a terrible time for historic preservation; every city in the country was obsessed with ripping out old buildings and putting in giant hideous super-blocks in the name of progress.
That's probably the best result of this trend. In other places, progress was highlighted by ripping out the old buildings and putting in parking lot after parking lot. Parking wasn't the problem, but with their introductions, those places became more bleak and less desirable to visit and so the decline continued.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's probably the best result of this trend. In other places, progress was highlighted by ripping out the old buildings and putting in parking lot after parking lot. Parking wasn't the problem, but with their introductions, those places became more bleak and less desirable to visit and so the decline continued.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
With the exception of Grand Central Terminal, pretty much every single entry point into and out of NYC is straight up embarrassing. Every single other American city manages to have a decent airport or train station (not to mention a decent way to get in and out of them, like a proper taxi stand or decent public transport to and from).New Yorkers never know how good they have it.
Look, I hate NYC's airports as much as the next guy. Sure, the current Penn Station is depressing. At least taking Amtrak to or from NYC is sensible! Traveling by Amtrak anywhere but the Northeast Corridor is a frankly terrible idea, so even if a city outside of the Northeast once had a pretty train station (like Detroit), it would be foolish to use it now. That leaves airports, and the airports in Chicago, Los Angeles, and Atlanta are all widely despised.
At least New York has a world-class subway, multiple commuter rail lines (LIRR, Metro North, NJT), and three usable airports! Other US cities with multiple subway lines have terrible coverage gaps that exclude huge parts of the metro area (I'm looking at you, Washington, D.C.). Then there are cities like Dallas and Houston that BADLY need a real subway but only have a single line!
posted by LightStruk at 10:06 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
There is a an analogous architectural travesty in London: witness Euston station before... and after.
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 10:07 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 10:07 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
WGBH's American Experience did an episode about Penn Station: The Rise and Fall of Penn Station. It's worth watching if you have an hour to spare.
posted by TrialByMedia at 10:35 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by TrialByMedia at 10:35 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
a minority, clearly. median voter theorem, etc.
Your apparent belief that the station was demolished only after a public plebiscite or referendum is charming, but--alas--without historic foundation.
One of the great ironies of the demolition of the station is that it was largely done because ridership had fallen off terribly, so they felt the station was too large. Had they been more "concerned with making it work for the future" they would, in fact, have preserved the old station. Downscaling the station was, in the medium and long term, a lousy financial decision in addition to being an act of deplorable cultural vandalism.
posted by yoink at 11:22 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Your apparent belief that the station was demolished only after a public plebiscite or referendum is charming, but--alas--without historic foundation.
One of the great ironies of the demolition of the station is that it was largely done because ridership had fallen off terribly, so they felt the station was too large. Had they been more "concerned with making it work for the future" they would, in fact, have preserved the old station. Downscaling the station was, in the medium and long term, a lousy financial decision in addition to being an act of deplorable cultural vandalism.
posted by yoink at 11:22 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
In Paris, when they have an underutilized train station, they turn it into an art museum. In the USA, we turn it into a basketball court.
posted by pashdown at 11:39 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pashdown at 11:39 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
> In the USA, we turn it into a basketball court.
…slash-hockey-rink-slash-premier-concert-venue.
The travesty of Penn Station is not that Madison Square Garden exists, but rather that someone convinced the city they needed to knock Penn Station down and rebuild it underground so that MSG could be built on top of it. Instead of just building it somewhere else.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015
…slash-hockey-rink-slash-premier-concert-venue.
The travesty of Penn Station is not that Madison Square Garden exists, but rather that someone convinced the city they needed to knock Penn Station down and rebuild it underground so that MSG could be built on top of it. Instead of just building it somewhere else.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015
I'm sort of amazed that the current MSG still exists. It's the oldest arena in the NHL and the second oldest in the NBA.
posted by octothorpe at 12:05 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 12:05 PM on July 21, 2015
The travesty of Penn Station is not that Madison Square Garden exists, but rather that someone convinced the city they needed to knock Penn Station down and rebuild it underground so that MSG could be built on top of it. Instead of just building it somewhere else.
In any other city it would have become a parking lot and the trains shut down entirely. So thank god for small favors. :)
posted by mikewebkist at 12:11 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
In any other city it would have become a parking lot and the trains shut down entirely. So thank god for small favors. :)
posted by mikewebkist at 12:11 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Irving Felt, who built MSG, had an amusing, if ungenerous, quote at the time: "Fifty years from now, when its time for [the new Madison Square Garden] to be torn down, there will be a new group of architects who will protest."
Seems like it's about time to test that theory.
posted by mikewebkist at 12:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seems like it's about time to test that theory.
posted by mikewebkist at 12:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
mikewebkist: "In any other city it would have become a parking lot and the trains shut down entirely. So thank god for small favors. :)"
They turned ours into an upscale apartment building with a sad little Amtrak waiting room tacked onto the back. And as tiny as that station is now, it's usually empty because there's only two trains a day.
posted by octothorpe at 12:25 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
They turned ours into an upscale apartment building with a sad little Amtrak waiting room tacked onto the back. And as tiny as that station is now, it's usually empty because there's only two trains a day.
posted by octothorpe at 12:25 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
In Paris, when they have an underutilized train station, they turn it into an art museum. In the USA, we turn it into a basketball court. etc. etc. etc.
Funny you should put it that way. In other parts of this country we also preserve them and repurpose them as museums*.
*After trying it out as a shopping center and yes yes I know Hanna Barbera copied Superfriends' headquarters off it and Scarecrow's brain.
posted by Herodios at 1:48 PM on July 21, 2015
Funny you should put it that way. In other parts of this country we also preserve them and repurpose them as museums*.
*After trying it out as a shopping center and yes yes I know Hanna Barbera copied Superfriends' headquarters off it and Scarecrow's brain.
posted by Herodios at 1:48 PM on July 21, 2015
There's a beautiful children's book about Old Penn Station and its destruction, lovely illustrations, which also explains how it spurred historic preservation laws. Which strangely wandered into our lives just a couple of months after my husband started with the historic preservation agency, thus enabling us to explain to our three year old what his father's job actually was ... which is hard enough for any white collar job but it was extra-weird to get a book so HYPER-SPECIFIC to something as abstract as "historic preservation"!
(One warning: one of my children cannot handle reading this book because he cries hysterically when the station is destroyed and "no one could stop the destruction." He cannot be comforted because it is gone forever. Based on a survey of facebook friends with this book, this is NOT AN UNCOMMON REACTION.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:20 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
(One warning: one of my children cannot handle reading this book because he cries hysterically when the station is destroyed and "no one could stop the destruction." He cannot be comforted because it is gone forever. Based on a survey of facebook friends with this book, this is NOT AN UNCOMMON REACTION.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:20 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
We turned our disused train depot into a gallery, winter farmer/craft market, historical records research site, and soon to be center point of a downtown renewal project. It's a grand lofty space and I'm glad it wasn't demolished when the trains left.
posted by msbutah at 2:50 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by msbutah at 2:50 PM on July 21, 2015
I've mourned old Penn Station before so I don't have much more to add to this thread than what many of you have already said but ...
posted by Brian Puccio at 5:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
¶ Fun fact: one of the original Penn Station granite eagles stands watch behind a wrought iron fence on the 7th ave side.Another is in the parking lot at the Hicksville LIRR and another at the Merchant Marine Academy I think. Part of me wants to think that whomever had the idea to save a bunch of the eagles was kinda bothered about tearing down something so wonderful and wanted to keep little bits and pieces of it so he/she/they scattered them around so people in the future could find an eagle, read a plaque and look up where they came from.
posted by Brian Puccio at 5:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know it was used a lot less, but the destruction of Atlanta's Terminal Station makes me sad too. Gaah. Why?
posted by Violet Hour at 8:56 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by Violet Hour at 8:56 PM on July 21, 2015
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