BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTT
August 5, 2015 10:43 AM Subscribe
New tensions between Russia and NATO have led the US to commit additional military resources to Eastern Europe. 9 reasons we love the A-10 European Theater Security Package.
FWIW, the A-10 is just two years shy of its 40th anniversary of service.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
... it just looks so awesome when the A-10 flies up to your boom with that big gun in your face.
That's some quality subtext.
posted by logicpunk at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
That's some quality subtext.
posted by logicpunk at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
What a dignified, professional, well-written article.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:55 AM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:55 AM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
The A-10 is the Lemmy of military aircraft.
posted by swift at 10:58 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by swift at 10:58 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
I really don't want people (even zoomies) to be doing Fun With GIFs on the runup to World War 3.*
*This .gif/comment should not be taken as a support for the tenants of National Socialism, but as an appreciation for Stanley Kubrick and as a form of satire.
posted by Fizz at 11:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
*This .gif/comment should not be taken as a support for the tenants of National Socialism, but as an appreciation for Stanley Kubrick and as a form of satire.
posted by Fizz at 11:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
You have to admit it's impressive the way they allllllmost hit that stationary car wreckage from a moving jet.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:06 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:06 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Almost? Did you not notice the car hopping up into the air just a bit? That car was dead-center in the spray and was ventilated.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:10 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:10 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The A-10 is the Lemmy of military aircraft.
THE ACE OF SPADES!
BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTT
THE ACE OF SPADES!
BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTT
I think you're onto something there....
posted by eriko at 11:14 AM on August 5, 2015 [16 favorites]
THE ACE OF SPADES!
BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTT
THE ACE OF SPADES!
BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTT
I think you're onto something there....
posted by eriko at 11:14 AM on August 5, 2015 [16 favorites]
The A-10 is the Lemmy of military aircraft.
And, of course, the byline is from Rammstein Air Base.
Shame they had a slight typo in that.
posted by eriko at 11:16 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
And, of course, the byline is from Rammstein Air Base.
Shame they had a slight typo in that.
posted by eriko at 11:16 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Has the A-10 been saved? The F-35 is a clusterfuck of GWB proportions.
posted by persona au gratin at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
As a resident of one of the countries on their 'bucket list', I'd be happy to host these warthog fanboys if it discouraged Putin and pals, but I have the awful feeling we'll just get the A-10s and the T-72s fighting in my flowerbed one of these days. And I'm still picking broken glass from WWII out of the dirt.
posted by pracowity at 11:19 AM on August 5, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 11:19 AM on August 5, 2015 [11 favorites]
Has the A-10 been saved?
It's still officially going to be killed, just like it has been for the last 15 years.
I think it's now in a race with fusion as a practical power source.
posted by eriko at 11:19 AM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
It's still officially going to be killed, just like it has been for the last 15 years.
I think it's now in a race with fusion as a practical power source.
posted by eriko at 11:19 AM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
That's some quality subtext.
When the A-10 flies up to your boom
With that big gun in your face.
You get SPRUNG
So, fellas! (Yeah!) Fellas! (Yeah!)
Has your A-10 got the gun? (Hell yeah!)
Tell 'em to shoot it! (Shoot it!) Shoot it! (Shoot it!)
Shoot that giant gun!
A-10 got gun!
posted by happyroach at 11:20 AM on August 5, 2015 [16 favorites]
When the A-10 flies up to your boom
With that big gun in your face.
You get SPRUNG
So, fellas! (Yeah!) Fellas! (Yeah!)
Has your A-10 got the gun? (Hell yeah!)
Tell 'em to shoot it! (Shoot it!) Shoot it! (Shoot it!)
Shoot that giant gun!
A-10 got gun!
posted by happyroach at 11:20 AM on August 5, 2015 [16 favorites]
A-10 flies up to your boom with that big gun in your face.
You get sprung, wanna pull up tough
Cause you notice that Hog was stuffed
posted by zamboni at 11:20 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
You get sprung, wanna pull up tough
Cause you notice that Hog was stuffed
posted by zamboni at 11:20 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
… I think I owe happyroach a coke.
posted by zamboni at 11:21 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 11:21 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Umm, guys, what's leaping to mind there is.
Baby. Got. Flak.
posted by eriko at 11:21 AM on August 5, 2015 [19 favorites]
Baby. Got. Flak.
posted by eriko at 11:21 AM on August 5, 2015 [19 favorites]
Has the A-10 been saved? The F-35 is a clusterfuck of GWB proportions.
Fun fact: the USAF was flying F-4's until a couple months ago.
posted by swift at 11:25 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fun fact: the USAF was flying F-4's until a couple months ago.
posted by swift at 11:25 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's sort of amusing bluster, but I would not want to be in an A-10 going up against actual, not-for-export, no-shit Russian air defense.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:31 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:31 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
No discussion of the A-10 is complete without this picture of the A-10's gun next to a Volkswagen Beetle.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:32 AM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:32 AM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
Yeah, when I saw an A-10 on the ground in person the first time I had to re-calibrate my sense of scale on it entirely. It's huge.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:38 AM on August 5, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 11:38 AM on August 5, 2015
It's not the only antiquarian airframe getting a new lease of life. In the Tornado's case, it's embarrassingly better at carrying the right sort of weapon in the right sort of quantities than the shiny (not-so) new Eurofighter.
But, in response to the FPP article, no, I don't feel good about seeing a return to Cold War posturing with real hardware popping up all over Europe. I prefer to get my jollies at airshows, thanks.
posted by Devonian at 11:39 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
But, in response to the FPP article, no, I don't feel good about seeing a return to Cold War posturing with real hardware popping up all over Europe. I prefer to get my jollies at airshows, thanks.
posted by Devonian at 11:39 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Has the A-10 been saved? The F-35 is a clusterfuck of GWB proportions.
Fun fact: the USAF was flying F-4's until a couple months ago.
There are still 85 B-52s in active service, and they will probably be flying for 30 more years. The first one rolled off the line in 1954. I saw a story in Stars 'n' Stripes 15 or so years ago about a B-52 pilot who was flying the same airframe that his grandfather flew.
posted by Etrigan at 11:40 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
Fun fact: the USAF was flying F-4's until a couple months ago.
There are still 85 B-52s in active service, and they will probably be flying for 30 more years. The first one rolled off the line in 1954. I saw a story in Stars 'n' Stripes 15 or so years ago about a B-52 pilot who was flying the same airframe that his grandfather flew.
posted by Etrigan at 11:40 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
Has the A-10 been saved?
It's still officially going to be killed, just like it has been for the last 15 years.
They just need to shoot enough bits off.
Takes a while.
posted by Artw at 11:44 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's still officially going to be killed, just like it has been for the last 15 years.
They just need to shoot enough bits off.
Takes a while.
posted by Artw at 11:44 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Two fun A-10 facts:
1) As an exercise in college (I think it was a flight dynamics class), we determined that the cannon expelled mass so quickly that it has a noticeably effect on the airspeed of the plane - it'll slow the plane down on the order of 10 knots just by shooting bullets in the direction of flight.
2) The cannon produces enough exhaust when firing to flame out the engines as all that gun smoke gets sucked in to the turbines and chokes the combustors. The engines actually had to be designed specially to handle it.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:54 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
1) As an exercise in college (I think it was a flight dynamics class), we determined that the cannon expelled mass so quickly that it has a noticeably effect on the airspeed of the plane - it'll slow the plane down on the order of 10 knots just by shooting bullets in the direction of flight.
2) The cannon produces enough exhaust when firing to flame out the engines as all that gun smoke gets sucked in to the turbines and chokes the combustors. The engines actually had to be designed specially to handle it.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:54 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have seen these babies up close and personal. Le me ta you, nothing says airborne crowd control like the A-10. The noise alone rumbles your bones. When it passes over, a dragon looks like one of the Wright Bros. Fixing bike hose ( and as vunerable) The 20 mic shreds almost anything and its advanced sighting gear makes it formidable.
Michigan just wrapped up the International 'Operation Northern Strike'
Here's some art.
They're mechanical dragons with missles or a well armed buzzards.
posted by clavdivs at 12:05 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Michigan just wrapped up the International 'Operation Northern Strike'
Here's some art.
They're mechanical dragons with missles or a well armed buzzards.
posted by clavdivs at 12:05 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I see your A-10 and raise you a B-1 Lancer loaded with Satan's hockey pucks.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:09 PM on August 5, 2015
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:09 PM on August 5, 2015
How much does it cost to fire that gun, exactly?
posted by mkb at 12:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by mkb at 12:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Please allow a former Aircraft Armament Systems Specialist to sing you the song of my people...ahem...BRRRRRRRRRRRRRT!, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT! Thank you.
posted by MikeMc at 12:13 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MikeMc at 12:13 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Listicles really set the second cold war off from the first for the better. That and Reagan being dead.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:38 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:38 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Air Force never wanted the A-10. Congress threatened to give it to the Army if the Air Force wouldn't take it, so the Air Force gave in.
The Air Force has never forgotten that it was once part of the Army. It hates any suggestion that one of its jobs is close air support for ground operations. Since that's the entire reason for the A-10's existence, it's a bleeding wound as far as Air Force brass are concerned, and they've wanted to kill it ever since it was deployed.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:57 PM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Air Force has never forgotten that it was once part of the Army. It hates any suggestion that one of its jobs is close air support for ground operations. Since that's the entire reason for the A-10's existence, it's a bleeding wound as far as Air Force brass are concerned, and they've wanted to kill it ever since it was deployed.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:57 PM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a listicle stamping on a human face - forever.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:10 PM on August 5, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:10 PM on August 5, 2015 [11 favorites]
I see your A-10 and raise you a B-1 Lancer loaded with Satan's hockey pucks.
Haven't we retired CBUs? Maybe the not the SFW as it doesn't scatter small bomblets....
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2015
Haven't we retired CBUs? Maybe the not the SFW as it doesn't scatter small bomblets....
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2015
When will they ever learn? See, we started NATO on account of Uncle Joe's fucking tanks. We built the ICBM around an unpleasant fiction. We adopted MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) on the theory that....well, they didn't have a real theory, but they had to do something, so never mind.
Nobody has ever been discouraged when you show them your gun. Anyhow, it always comes down to some kid from Ohio or Kentucky with a bayonet on the end of his rifle. Then comes skinny kids poking around through garbage for food--they speak enough pidgin English to let you know that their sisters will be in love with you, cheap. After that, American soldiers can come home to inadequate medical care and a disinterested public that gets its information from You Tube. Thoughtful discourse, naturally, comes under the heading of traitorous malingering.
Eventually some asshole will get elected to the lower house on a "never again" platform, but he'll invest in munitions production, so his district will get the contracts, and he can retire to their board of directors in a high-paying advisory role. He will of course lead his party in saber-rattling and gunboat diplomacy to make sure the contracts keep coming in.
This is my third time sitting through that movie. But yeah, them warthogs are awesome, eh? They were born in my war, but I never saw one. We got our kicks with Snoopy and Spector...sold line of tracers, a redline hosing the ground, sounded like a monstrous sewing machine unless you were near the impact area. Then it sounded like Hell coming apart at the seams. We didn't have such neat toys, but by golly, we sure knew how to have a good time.
posted by mule98J at 1:48 PM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
Nobody has ever been discouraged when you show them your gun. Anyhow, it always comes down to some kid from Ohio or Kentucky with a bayonet on the end of his rifle. Then comes skinny kids poking around through garbage for food--they speak enough pidgin English to let you know that their sisters will be in love with you, cheap. After that, American soldiers can come home to inadequate medical care and a disinterested public that gets its information from You Tube. Thoughtful discourse, naturally, comes under the heading of traitorous malingering.
Eventually some asshole will get elected to the lower house on a "never again" platform, but he'll invest in munitions production, so his district will get the contracts, and he can retire to their board of directors in a high-paying advisory role. He will of course lead his party in saber-rattling and gunboat diplomacy to make sure the contracts keep coming in.
This is my third time sitting through that movie. But yeah, them warthogs are awesome, eh? They were born in my war, but I never saw one. We got our kicks with Snoopy and Spector...sold line of tracers, a redline hosing the ground, sounded like a monstrous sewing machine unless you were near the impact area. Then it sounded like Hell coming apart at the seams. We didn't have such neat toys, but by golly, we sure knew how to have a good time.
posted by mule98J at 1:48 PM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is propaganda.
posted by Nevin at 1:58 PM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Nevin at 1:58 PM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is propaganda.
I almost posted it with the propaganda tag, but:
1) I figured people didn't need me to tell them,
2) I can't tell if this is really intended for the public. It's a product of military public affairs, but it seems incredibly inside-baseball-y, so much so that I thought it might be mostly for distribution within the military community rather than outside.
posted by grobstein at 2:07 PM on August 5, 2015
I almost posted it with the propaganda tag, but:
1) I figured people didn't need me to tell them,
2) I can't tell if this is really intended for the public. It's a product of military public affairs, but it seems incredibly inside-baseball-y, so much so that I thought it might be mostly for distribution within the military community rather than outside.
posted by grobstein at 2:07 PM on August 5, 2015
Well, the listicle made it onto MetaFilter, which means it's almost certainly being posted elsewhere on the Internet. And the listicle was written for a general audience. It's not particularly technical at all.
I think the US deployments to the Baltics and Poland are reassuring as a matter of fact. It would be nice to see if there was some way of de-escalating the stalemate in Europe, but the genie as has been let out of the bottle.
posted by Nevin at 2:55 PM on August 5, 2015
I think the US deployments to the Baltics and Poland are reassuring as a matter of fact. It would be nice to see if there was some way of de-escalating the stalemate in Europe, but the genie as has been let out of the bottle.
posted by Nevin at 2:55 PM on August 5, 2015
We got our kicks with Snoopy and Spector...sold line of tracers, a redline hosing the ground, sounded like a monstrous sewing machine unless you were near the impact area.
The AC-130 is still around. Today, many more young people are likely familiar with it from Medal of Honor and Call of Duty than from seeing it in action, or from learning about its history and current use.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:58 PM on August 5, 2015
The AC-130 is still around. Today, many more young people are likely familiar with it from Medal of Honor and Call of Duty than from seeing it in action, or from learning about its history and current use.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:58 PM on August 5, 2015
I might be breaking the seal by saying this, but I'm happy that we went 40 comments, at least, before people started complaining about DU.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:26 PM on August 5, 2015
posted by Sunburnt at 3:26 PM on August 5, 2015
Haven't we retired CBUs?
It's unclear. Never signed the agreement, used in combat as recently as 2006, still have them in stock, still performing research on improved models.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:27 PM on August 5, 2015
It's unclear. Never signed the agreement, used in combat as recently as 2006, still have them in stock, still performing research on improved models.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:27 PM on August 5, 2015
I love the A-10, it is so retro and ugly cute and deadly. I do not like war but I love that warplane. Thanks for this post.
posted by vrakatar at 3:50 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by vrakatar at 3:50 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
As I've said before, I have a brother in law who flies the A-10. IIRC, he agrees that the plane needs to be phased out. I don't remember the exact details, I will get it more directly next time I talk to him so I can pass along that perspective, but it isn't just the profiteers who think the time has come. IIRC, it's that the plane just can't stand up to true modern air defense. We get around that by attaining air superiority before we ever send it in, and relying on the remarkable resilience of the plane when it does get hit, but there are circumstances in which we need a close air support plane without those limitations.
If you don't yet have total control of the skies but need close air support, the F-35 stealth might be a much bigger deal than A-10 big gun and toughness.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you don't yet have total control of the skies but need close air support, the F-35 stealth might be a much bigger deal than A-10 big gun and toughness.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Until the F-35 gets shot out of the sky by a MIG from 1974.
I wonder if we let the Chinese steal all our designs on the F-35 as a form of espionage.
posted by persona au gratin at 5:29 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wonder if we let the Chinese steal all our designs on the F-35 as a form of espionage.
posted by persona au gratin at 5:29 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Warthog may be technically outdated, but it has the mythology.
posted by ovvl at 5:58 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 5:58 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Until the F-35 gets shot out of the sky by a MIG from 1974.
The F-35 might have flaws, but I can't imagine there is an air to air scenario where the A-10 is better. If you need close air support with a 1974 mig or any mig still in the air free to hunt it, the A-10 is not your choice but the F-35 can reasonably be expected to win the encounter.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:10 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The F-35 might have flaws, but I can't imagine there is an air to air scenario where the A-10 is better. If you need close air support with a 1974 mig or any mig still in the air free to hunt it, the A-10 is not your choice but the F-35 can reasonably be expected to win the encounter.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:10 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Baby. Got. Flak.
I love big BRRRRRRTs and I cannot lie.
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:18 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I love big BRRRRRRTs and I cannot lie.
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:18 PM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
9 reasons we love the A-10 European Security Theater Package.
/me eats, snarks and leaves
posted by comealongpole at 6:47 PM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
/me eats, snarks and leaves
posted by comealongpole at 6:47 PM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
...I thought it might be mostly for distribution within the military community rather than outside.
I think it's specifically designed to annoy Air Force generals.
posted by happyroach at 7:12 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's specifically designed to annoy Air Force generals.
posted by happyroach at 7:12 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
That cannon must have been reverse engineered from some crashed UFO. It sounds out of this world.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 8:42 PM on August 5, 2015
posted by cosmic.osmo at 8:42 PM on August 5, 2015
I suspect both would be screwed in any sort of air-air combat against anything more advanced than a Spitfire.
One, however, cost hundreds of billions of dollars and is the future of the Air Force.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:10 AM on August 6, 2015
One, however, cost hundreds of billions of dollars and is the future of the Air Force.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:10 AM on August 6, 2015
But, but, in 1974 the entire posit of the A-10 was getting both air superiority and effective air defense suppression before they went in. It was obvious as hell if you didn't have that the only thing that would be shot down faster would be the Army's attack helicopters.
That's step one of CAS. That's why you get air superiority over the battlefield! So you can bring in CAS! And you ain't going to use the F-35, or anything else, for CAS while there's still effective enemy fighters around or effective air defenses around, because you'll be using them to get air superiority and suppress air defenses!
By the time you'd release F-35s for CAS, it'll be just as safe for the Warthogs!
posted by eriko at 3:47 AM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's step one of CAS. That's why you get air superiority over the battlefield! So you can bring in CAS! And you ain't going to use the F-35, or anything else, for CAS while there's still effective enemy fighters around or effective air defenses around, because you'll be using them to get air superiority and suppress air defenses!
By the time you'd release F-35s for CAS, it'll be just as safe for the Warthogs!
posted by eriko at 3:47 AM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
They used to make those guns near where I grew up, and test fired them at military firing range ~20km from my parents' house. I could hear them from my back yard.
posted by brand-gnu at 6:05 AM on August 6, 2015
posted by brand-gnu at 6:05 AM on August 6, 2015
But, but, in 1974 the entire posit of the A-10 was getting both air superiority and effective air defense suppression before they went in.
If that were the case, they wouldn't have put them in Sembach and wherever-the-hell else they were in West Germany. They were going to get thrown at the Fulda gap on day one, damn the torpedoes etc.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:48 AM on August 6, 2015
If that were the case, they wouldn't have put them in Sembach and wherever-the-hell else they were in West Germany. They were going to get thrown at the Fulda gap on day one, damn the torpedoes etc.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:48 AM on August 6, 2015
I think the idea is that the Russian army would continue its pretense to be Nationalist rebels or whatever and so politely let themselves be evaporated by bullets rather than give the game away with air defense.
IIRC at least on tank column has gone that way already.
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on August 6, 2015
IIRC at least on tank column has gone that way already.
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on August 6, 2015
3. Marking off a bunch of new countries on our bucket list
There's a guy I argue with on the Internet who says that the US doesn't have an empire.
Heh.
posted by clawsoon at 8:15 AM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's a guy I argue with on the Internet who says that the US doesn't have an empire.
Heh.
posted by clawsoon at 8:15 AM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by Etrigan at 10:48 AM on August 5, 2015 [13 favorites]