Gentrification and the hacker
August 13, 2015 4:29 PM Subscribe
Hacking, then, looks like a practice with very deep roots – as primally and originally human as disobedience itself. Which makes it all the more disturbing that hacking itself appears to have been hacked.
This seems up there with punk purity and kids making memes instead of Real Culture in terms of the level of concern we should give it.
posted by Artw at 5:11 PM on August 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:11 PM on August 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
Rebels get older and realize the rent needs to get paid, dental care is nice.
News at 11.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:22 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
News at 11.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:22 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Related: Facebook Pulls College Kid's Internship After He Exposes Privacy Leak.
The gist of the Gawker article is that Facebook -- a company whose HQ address is literally 1 Hacker Way and whose origin story begins with unauthorized scraping of online data -- retracted an internship offer because the student had "hacked" (not even really) FB Messenger to expose its shoddy/careless default privacy settings. Anyways, I guess the moral of the story is that it's hard to maintain an ethos of raging against the machine when you are the machine.
posted by mhum at 5:23 PM on August 13, 2015 [13 favorites]
The gist of the Gawker article is that Facebook -- a company whose HQ address is literally 1 Hacker Way and whose origin story begins with unauthorized scraping of online data -- retracted an internship offer because the student had "hacked" (not even really) FB Messenger to expose its shoddy/careless default privacy settings. Anyways, I guess the moral of the story is that it's hard to maintain an ethos of raging against the machine when you are the machine.
posted by mhum at 5:23 PM on August 13, 2015 [13 favorites]
Most of the people who I think of as hackers from the glorious past ended up becoming either tenured professors at major universities, or senior investigators at major industrial R&D labs. All the dudes making unreasonable promises about LISP in the 80s. Aho, Weinberger, and Kernighan. Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman. Knuth. Mostly they don't care if you make money as long as you aren't restricting what they can do with the computer. Not sure that talking about "gentrification" makes sense in this context.
I don't think Silicon Valley has "gentrified" the hacker ethos so much as they're kind of cargo-culting it, as a story to tell themselves and others about what makes them special.
There's a blurry line between this kind of hacker culture (which Silicon Valley is descended from and obsessed with) and security people, phone phreaks and people who you might call black hat/white hat hackers. But the field of security seems to me to be distinct. I don't think DEFCON has guys in plaid talking about how "i just think design is so important, you know?"
It almost seemed like this guy has gotten confused about the old 1990s pedantic distinction between "hackers" and "people the media wrongly calls hackers but should be called crackers".
posted by vogon_poet at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2015 [28 favorites]
I don't think Silicon Valley has "gentrified" the hacker ethos so much as they're kind of cargo-culting it, as a story to tell themselves and others about what makes them special.
There's a blurry line between this kind of hacker culture (which Silicon Valley is descended from and obsessed with) and security people, phone phreaks and people who you might call black hat/white hat hackers. But the field of security seems to me to be distinct. I don't think DEFCON has guys in plaid talking about how "i just think design is so important, you know?"
It almost seemed like this guy has gotten confused about the old 1990s pedantic distinction between "hackers" and "people the media wrongly calls hackers but should be called crackers".
posted by vogon_poet at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2015 [28 favorites]
The biggest threat to our hackerspace is not the "gentrification of hacking". It is actual, tangible, geographic gentrification. One day the building we work out of will be rezoned for condos and that will be that.
But startup bros using the term "hacker"? Corporate sponsored hackathons? The co-opting of the terminology doesn't change the core culture. If anything, it makes it broader, more accessible, less scary. We're not loners, and we're not hostile to interested folks. Having your next-door neighbor yell at the kids to get off your lawn is pretty weird.
posted by phooky at 5:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
But startup bros using the term "hacker"? Corporate sponsored hackathons? The co-opting of the terminology doesn't change the core culture. If anything, it makes it broader, more accessible, less scary. We're not loners, and we're not hostile to interested folks. Having your next-door neighbor yell at the kids to get off your lawn is pretty weird.
posted by phooky at 5:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
most seemed like this guy has gotten confused about the old 1990s pedantic distinction between "hackers" and "people the media wrongly calls hackers but should be called crackers".
Which was always bullshit. Because it always involved wow, look what I can do, and it doesn't matter that some one/thing/system/sign said that I couldn't do it.
The reason that ITS had a "crash" command was that they got tired of people figuring out Yet Another Way to crash ITS so they made it trivial to do. Yeah, every so often a new kid would go "what does that do?" and run it and take the system down, but he'd* only do it once.
But note the ethos. This is a multi million dolls machine that dozens of people are working on, and the hacker mindset is to break it, and the only way they could stop it with their crap software was to make it so trivial to break that it wasn't fun to break anymore.
That was your legendary MIT hackers. No different than now. John Draper? Stole from the phone company. No different than now.
The Hacker/Cracker distinction is bullshit and always has been.
*yes, he. Sexist sixties are sexist.
posted by eriko at 5:43 PM on August 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
Which was always bullshit. Because it always involved wow, look what I can do, and it doesn't matter that some one/thing/system/sign said that I couldn't do it.
The reason that ITS had a "crash" command was that they got tired of people figuring out Yet Another Way to crash ITS so they made it trivial to do. Yeah, every so often a new kid would go "what does that do?" and run it and take the system down, but he'd* only do it once.
But note the ethos. This is a multi million dolls machine that dozens of people are working on, and the hacker mindset is to break it, and the only way they could stop it with their crap software was to make it so trivial to break that it wasn't fun to break anymore.
That was your legendary MIT hackers. No different than now. John Draper? Stole from the phone company. No different than now.
The Hacker/Cracker distinction is bullshit and always has been.
*yes, he. Sexist sixties are sexist.
posted by eriko at 5:43 PM on August 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
vogon_poet, yes, exactly! I got a sense that the word "hacker" kind of expanded and shrank to fit however necessary to fit the point the author was making.
I used to go to hackerspaces and 2600 meetings - I was expecting everyone there to be really anti-authoritarian and political, but half of them worked for the military or the government, and everyone else was either in school for computer science, or worked as security consultants.
Anyway, I was a pretty terrible hacker (I guess you could say I couldn't hack it) and I felt weird and alienated after a while. I really burned out when I started hearing people talk about "the humanities are useless and ethnic studies departments just exist so minorities can jerk off about how great they are." Every time I think about how hackers are supposed to be about pushing boundaries, I just get the sense that this has always been way more limited than what people wax romantic about.
posted by teponaztli at 5:44 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I used to go to hackerspaces and 2600 meetings - I was expecting everyone there to be really anti-authoritarian and political, but half of them worked for the military or the government, and everyone else was either in school for computer science, or worked as security consultants.
Anyway, I was a pretty terrible hacker (I guess you could say I couldn't hack it) and I felt weird and alienated after a while. I really burned out when I started hearing people talk about "the humanities are useless and ethnic studies departments just exist so minorities can jerk off about how great they are." Every time I think about how hackers are supposed to be about pushing boundaries, I just get the sense that this has always been way more limited than what people wax romantic about.
posted by teponaztli at 5:44 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
A lot of hackers are thrilled to disrupt anything but the status quo.
I figure the term "hack" definitely lost any authentic cachet by the time "Hints from Heloise" were rebranded as "LifeHacks".
posted by rmd1023 at 6:12 PM on August 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
I figure the term "hack" definitely lost any authentic cachet by the time "Hints from Heloise" were rebranded as "LifeHacks".
posted by rmd1023 at 6:12 PM on August 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
There are humans who can legally buy cigarettes (probably even booze) that aren't as old as the whole "cracker verses hacker" debate. Besides some company/org names, this whole article could have been posted to late 90's Slashdot.
Anyways, I guess the moral of the story is that it's hard to maintain an ethos of raging against the machine when you are the machine
The real lesson is "don't bite the hand that feeds you,", with some "don't show your employer you are willing/able to publicly disclose internal information" thrown in for good measure. He hadn't even started as an intern yet, and here is his telling the world about problems he'd found.
posted by sideshow at 6:17 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Anyways, I guess the moral of the story is that it's hard to maintain an ethos of raging against the machine when you are the machine
The real lesson is "don't bite the hand that feeds you,", with some "don't show your employer you are willing/able to publicly disclose internal information" thrown in for good measure. He hadn't even started as an intern yet, and here is his telling the world about problems he'd found.
posted by sideshow at 6:17 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Hacker/Cracker distinction is bullshit and always has been.
Not really. There's just lots of overlap between the sets. Here's a Venn diagram.
posted by sfenders at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not really. There's just lots of overlap between the sets. Here's a Venn diagram.
posted by sfenders at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
eriko: John Draper? Stole from the phone company. No different than now.
Theres no doubt that the phreakers of old gave Bell security ulcers, but the unauthorized access to switches and trunks wasn't made illegal until later, if l recall Phil Lapsleys Exploding The Phone correctly.
posted by dr_dank at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2015
Theres no doubt that the phreakers of old gave Bell security ulcers, but the unauthorized access to switches and trunks wasn't made illegal until later, if l recall Phil Lapsleys Exploding The Phone correctly.
posted by dr_dank at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2015
sideshow: "The real lesson is "don't bite the hand that feeds you,", with some "don't show your employer you are willing/able to publicly disclose internal information" thrown in for good measure."
Also that. Except, for the record, he wasn't disclosing internal information. Khanna found and published his stuff in May; his internship wasn't due to start until June. Here's Khanna's own write-up of the incident.
On the other hand, maybe Facebook's reaction to an embarrassing exposure of their own flaws with a somewhat hypocritical and defensive dismissal rather than a hearty slap on the back and a "well met, fellow hacker" is also an authentic hacker reaction.
posted by mhum at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also that. Except, for the record, he wasn't disclosing internal information. Khanna found and published his stuff in May; his internship wasn't due to start until June. Here's Khanna's own write-up of the incident.
On the other hand, maybe Facebook's reaction to an embarrassing exposure of their own flaws with a somewhat hypocritical and defensive dismissal rather than a hearty slap on the back and a "well met, fellow hacker" is also an authentic hacker reaction.
posted by mhum at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hacking was gentrified when Steve Jobs took Woz's masterwork and turned it into computers used to run VisiCalc and Oregon Trail. When Bill Gates bought QDOS and sold it as MS-DOS. When Kevin Mitnick became a security consultant. Which is to say it's all romanticized BS
posted by aydeejones at 7:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 7:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hacking was gentrified well before that, which Brett Scott, the author of this essay would have realized if he'd read more of Steven Levy's book than the title and a little bit about John Draper; even before the Apple I, Woz and Jobs sold blue boxes (the devices that the likes of Draper actually used to do their phone phreaking) door-to-door at Berkeley, and well before QDOS, Bill Gates wrote an angry letter to the hacker community at large (published in early computer hobbyist newsletters) taking them to task for pirating his and Paul Allen's BASIC for the Altair (the first mass-produced PC). In fact, the book in general isn't just about people playing around with computers for the sheer hell of it or for altruistic reasons, but also about people (sometimes other people, sometimes the same hackers who used to do it just for fun or to Bring Computing To The Masses) finding out how to monetize their hobby/obsession. It was there from the beginning.
Also, WRT Draper, some of the things that he did may not have been technically illegal at the time, at least at first, but there are other aspects of his behavior that keep him from being a faultless proto-hacker unjustly brought down by The Man. From "Secrets of the Little Blue Box", a 1971 Esquire article that publicized phone phreaking, Captain Crunch (Draper is not mentioned by name), and blue boxes (it is in fact how Woz found out about them), which Scott likewise doesn't mention:
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, WRT Draper, some of the things that he did may not have been technically illegal at the time, at least at first, but there are other aspects of his behavior that keep him from being a faultless proto-hacker unjustly brought down by The Man. From "Secrets of the Little Blue Box", a 1971 Esquire article that publicized phone phreaking, Captain Crunch (Draper is not mentioned by name), and blue boxes (it is in fact how Woz found out about them), which Scott likewise doesn't mention:
Toward the end of my hour-long first conversation with him, I asked the Captain if he ever tapped phones.So, uh... yeah.
"Oh no. I don't do that. I don't think it's right," he told me firmly. "I have the power to do it but I don't... Well one time, just one time, I have to admit that I did. There was this girl, Linda, and I wanted to find out... you know. I tried to call her up for a date. I had a date with her the last weekend and I thought she liked me. I called her up, man, and her line was busy, and I kept calling and it was still busy. Well, I had just learned about this system of jumping into lines and I said to myself, 'Hmmm. Why not just see if it works. It'll surprise her if all of a sudden I should pop up on her line. It'll impress her, if anything.' So I went ahead and did it. I M-F-ed into the line. My M-F-er is powerful enough when patched directly into the mouthpiece to trigger a verification trunk without using an operator the way the other phone phreaks have to.
"I slipped into the line and there she was talking to another boyfriend. Making sweet talk to him. I didn't make a sound because I was so disgusted. So I waited there for her to hang up, listening to her making sweet talk to the other guy. You know. So as soon as she hung up I instantly M-F-ed her up and all I said was, 'Linda, we're through.' And I hung up. And it blew her head off. She couldn't figure out what the hell happened.
"But that was the only time. I did it thinking I would surprise her, impress her. Those were all my intentions were, and well, it really kind of hurt me pretty badly, and... and ever since then I don't go into verification trunks."
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I like the idea of taking the concept of gentrification and looking for examples of the pattern in other spheres of life besides real estate.
But I think what the author is describing here would more accurately be called appropriation.
Also, what was with the derail about hacking the financial system versus grassroots advocacy around financial policy? I thought the article was going to be about that and now I'm skeptically curious what precisely the hell the author was talking about.
posted by univac at 8:12 PM on August 13, 2015
But I think what the author is describing here would more accurately be called appropriation.
Also, what was with the derail about hacking the financial system versus grassroots advocacy around financial policy? I thought the article was going to be about that and now I'm skeptically curious what precisely the hell the author was talking about.
posted by univac at 8:12 PM on August 13, 2015
So he did it once, realized it was a bad thing and never did it again?
posted by Carillon at 10:20 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by Carillon at 10:20 PM on August 13, 2015
So what's at stake here, the word "hacker" or our ability to hack? Will we somehow become less powerful if others find it useful to point us out & say "we're like them!"? If we successfully choose & propagate a new word, "blackhat" or maybe "黑客", does that mean we get our power back?
posted by scalefree at 11:18 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by scalefree at 11:18 PM on August 13, 2015
If there's assimilation going on, which side is it that's being assimilated? When new technology arrives, who gets there first? Who gets to shape the narrative of how we use & interact with it? Who is driving cultural change? Keep the word, no charge.
posted by scalefree at 11:24 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by scalefree at 11:24 PM on August 13, 2015
Yeah, not buying it.
I've never thought that there was a monolithic "hacker culture", at least not until recently (and it's sort of a reflexive second-generation one), but rather a whole bunch of niche subcultures which we've decided in retrospect to lump under the same heading.
There wasn't a ton of overlap, at least that I ever saw or heard described, between 2600 / phreaker culture and the nascent Internet community that existed at the same time. Hell, there was a period where there wasn't a ton of overlap between the BBS community and the early Internet one.
I mean, you could make a pretty good argument that the best ancestral claim to the title of "hacker community" isn't the phreakers at all, but the old-school Unix folks at AT&T itself.
There are other parts of hacker culture that come directly from mainframe / timeshare people, largely pretty buttoned-down folks, and of course the early internet community was full of defense contractors. (Bob Kahn and the rest of the BBN crew, f.ex.) It's certainly not some sort of counterculture vanguard.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:43 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've never thought that there was a monolithic "hacker culture", at least not until recently (and it's sort of a reflexive second-generation one), but rather a whole bunch of niche subcultures which we've decided in retrospect to lump under the same heading.
There wasn't a ton of overlap, at least that I ever saw or heard described, between 2600 / phreaker culture and the nascent Internet community that existed at the same time. Hell, there was a period where there wasn't a ton of overlap between the BBS community and the early Internet one.
I mean, you could make a pretty good argument that the best ancestral claim to the title of "hacker community" isn't the phreakers at all, but the old-school Unix folks at AT&T itself.
There are other parts of hacker culture that come directly from mainframe / timeshare people, largely pretty buttoned-down folks, and of course the early internet community was full of defense contractors. (Bob Kahn and the rest of the BBN crew, f.ex.) It's certainly not some sort of counterculture vanguard.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:43 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Halloween Jack, I not only met John Draper but was forced by circumstance to coexist with him for a period of time in the mid-90s. That quote kinda nails him. Meeting hm burned away all of my idolizing of hackers.
posted by lastobelus at 12:08 AM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by lastobelus at 12:08 AM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
"But that was the only time. I did it thinking I would surprise her, impress her. Those were all my intentions were, and well, it really kind of hurt me pretty badly, and... and ever since then I don't go into verification trunks."
There are a lot of people with stories of present-day John Draper using his pseudo-celebrity status to be a creeper - he's usually said to have a preference for (very) young men.
posted by atoxyl at 12:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of people with stories of present-day John Draper using his pseudo-celebrity status to be a creeper - he's usually said to have a preference for (very) young men.
posted by atoxyl at 12:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
lastobelus: only met John Draper but was forced by circumstance to coexist with him for a period of time in the mid-90s. That quote kinda nails him. Meeting hm burned away all of my idolizing of hackers.
Let me guess: "energy workouts"?
posted by dr_dank at 4:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let me guess: "energy workouts"?
posted by dr_dank at 4:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
atoxyl - I believe that. He evidently creeped on at least one person I know.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:05 AM on August 14, 2015
posted by rmd1023 at 7:05 AM on August 14, 2015
Part of this really struck with me because one of our biggest problems in my current hackspace is that people aren't seeing as a place where they can create things because they want to, they see it as a place where other people help them make money.
It becomes less about being a community of like-minded people all goofing off and seeing what new and weird and wild things can be taken apart and put back together and god only know what, and more about "I need whoever is in charge to get my membership set up right now so that I can use the laser cutter to make 500 pieces of mustache-shaped wooden pendants that I am selling for £20 each."
And, yeah, unsurprisingly, that pisses me off. It pisses me off when I go to hackathons where the "prizes" are a mere pittance of what the sponsor company would've paid a professional company to build the app they want. It pisses me off when I show off a knitted shawl that I've sewn LEDs into so that it lights up when you wrap it around you, and I get asked "How much are you planning to sell it for?" It pisses me off that when I say "I'm a hacker. I do hacky things," people automatically think of some asshole in a £30 Guy Fawkes mask, rather than...I don't know. Grace Hopper. Elizabeth Zimmerman. Hell, Lex in Jurassic Park, who totally hacked that kitchen cupboard door to trick velociraptors.
Ugh, I'm such a whiny old techie. The computer revolution was supposed to bring me a world where everyone was equal on the same screens, and, instead, we have venture capitalists.
posted by Katemonkey at 8:29 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
It becomes less about being a community of like-minded people all goofing off and seeing what new and weird and wild things can be taken apart and put back together and god only know what, and more about "I need whoever is in charge to get my membership set up right now so that I can use the laser cutter to make 500 pieces of mustache-shaped wooden pendants that I am selling for £20 each."
And, yeah, unsurprisingly, that pisses me off. It pisses me off when I go to hackathons where the "prizes" are a mere pittance of what the sponsor company would've paid a professional company to build the app they want. It pisses me off when I show off a knitted shawl that I've sewn LEDs into so that it lights up when you wrap it around you, and I get asked "How much are you planning to sell it for?" It pisses me off that when I say "I'm a hacker. I do hacky things," people automatically think of some asshole in a £30 Guy Fawkes mask, rather than...I don't know. Grace Hopper. Elizabeth Zimmerman. Hell, Lex in Jurassic Park, who totally hacked that kitchen cupboard door to trick velociraptors.
Ugh, I'm such a whiny old techie. The computer revolution was supposed to bring me a world where everyone was equal on the same screens, and, instead, we have venture capitalists.
posted by Katemonkey at 8:29 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
The computer revolution was supposed to bring me a world where everyone was equal on the same screens, and, instead, we have venture capitalists.
Yes, but we have always had VC’s in computers:
Yes, but we have always had VC’s in computers:
It is commonly noted that the first venture-backed startup is Fairchild Semiconductor (which produced the first commercially practical integrated circuit), funded in 1959 by what would later become Venrock Associates. Venrock was founded in 1969 by Laurance S. Rockefeller, the fourth of John D. Rockefeller's six children as a way to allow other Rockefeller children to develop exposure to venture capital investments.posted by migurski at 1:12 PM on August 14, 2015
There wasn't a ton of overlap, at least that I ever saw or heard described, between 2600 / phreaker culture and the nascent Internet community that existed at the same time.
You generally only hear about those who got caught. But even there I can offer up several examples:
Len Rose
Randal Schwartz.
One name who never did anything actionable but certainly contributed to both cultures is Alec Muffett, who wrote the groundbreaking password decrypter Crack.
Another would be Theo de Raadt, the force behind OpenBSD. I have photos of him at L0pht parties.
While I'm at it let's mention Dan Farmer who not only wrote the COPS & SATAN vulnerability scanners used by many hackers at the time but also attended DefCon for several years.
And I'd even add my old friend Julian Assange, who spent several years developing his skills while working to build out the Internet in Australia in the 90s.
I could name quite a few more but as their crossover involvement was never a matter of public record, that would be rude.
We're disreputable & they tend to look down their noses at us. But when they need our expertise or the tools resulting from it, they always find a way to put their distaste aside if it will solve their problems.
posted by scalefree at 4:43 PM on August 14, 2015
You generally only hear about those who got caught. But even there I can offer up several examples:
Len Rose
Randal Schwartz.
One name who never did anything actionable but certainly contributed to both cultures is Alec Muffett, who wrote the groundbreaking password decrypter Crack.
Another would be Theo de Raadt, the force behind OpenBSD. I have photos of him at L0pht parties.
While I'm at it let's mention Dan Farmer who not only wrote the COPS & SATAN vulnerability scanners used by many hackers at the time but also attended DefCon for several years.
And I'd even add my old friend Julian Assange, who spent several years developing his skills while working to build out the Internet in Australia in the 90s.
I could name quite a few more but as their crossover involvement was never a matter of public record, that would be rude.
We're disreputable & they tend to look down their noses at us. But when they need our expertise or the tools resulting from it, they always find a way to put their distaste aside if it will solve their problems.
posted by scalefree at 4:43 PM on August 14, 2015
... written by Brett Scott, former broker, financial activist, campaigner, kinda-unpaid/kinda-broke freelancer, yuccie, ... hacker?
All comments above are obviously true (for us folks, sigh) -- Scott clearly wasn't writing in his area of expertise, though as millennial yuccie as he may sound here, there's at least some silver lining in that it's not among his more articulate, rigorous expositions for what it's worth.
posted by pos at 12:56 AM on August 15, 2015
All comments above are obviously true (for us folks, sigh) -- Scott clearly wasn't writing in his area of expertise, though as millennial yuccie as he may sound here, there's at least some silver lining in that it's not among his more articulate, rigorous expositions for what it's worth.
posted by pos at 12:56 AM on August 15, 2015
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Either way, it's annoying.
posted by SansPoint at 5:09 PM on August 13, 2015