putting 'feminist' in your online dating bio is a good misogynist filter
August 27, 2015 12:33 PM Subscribe

Last year, Laura Nowak used Instagram to document the responses she got when she asked men on Tinder about their views on feminism. Nowak said she started the project because “I don’t want women thinking they have to settle for being objectified if they want casual sex, and I don’t want men on Tinder being systematically categorised as creeps.” In February 2015, Instagram deleted her @feministsontinder account, stating that it violated their guidelines. Now Nowak is back on Instagram with @feminist_tinder, recording the responses she received when she put the phrase "hello I am a feminist" in her Tinder profile.

posted by hurdy gurdy girl (166 comments total) 64 users marked this as a favorite

How does she come up with such a perfectly on point response for each and every asshole? I want even half of that wit under pressure.
posted by ActionPopulated at 12:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [28 favorites]

Here's a direct link to her instagram account.
posted by maxsparber at 12:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm guessing ointment sales doubled amoung male Tinder users.
posted by Cosine at 12:45 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Wow, those were not nearly as bad as I was expecting.
posted by klangklangston at 12:46 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

Did they ever mention what part of their guidelines were violated?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:56 PM on August 27, 2015

klang - look at her actual instagram account. The first comment uses the word cunt and it just gets worse from there.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:57 PM on August 27, 2015

Sometimes if you're a bi woman you think, well, there are just way fewer women to choose from proportionally, and then you take a gander around the internet and start to wonder if maybe there are actually fewer tolerable straight single men than queer single women
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [82 favorites]

Women shouldn't have to put up with this shit. But they should quote "No Scrubs" as much as possible when they do.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:07 PM on August 27, 2015 [54 favorites]

Couple comments deleted. Derail about the word "crazy" is probably better avoided.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:10 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

But they should quote "No Scrubs" as much as possible when they do.

Ha! Just what I was about to say. And her shutdown to "take a god damn compliment" was, to quote ActionPopulated, perfectly on point too. Well done.
posted by psoas at 1:11 PM on August 27, 2015

Him: It's alright you're fucking hideous anyway. Have fun having sex with barn animals.

Her: Have fun not getting laid because isn't it funny that even someone "fucking hideous" doesn't want to fuck you.

Hee hee hee
posted by rtha at 1:12 PM on August 27, 2015 [49 favorites]

A lot of my Facebook friends have been talking about doing stuff like this - not trolling people on dating sites, but just simply highlighting their various feminist/progressive leanings and seeing how it affects their interactions.

I reactivated my OKCupid profile not long ago and was getting a fair amount of messages, until I updated my profile to include feminism in the list of things I can't do without. Tumbleweeds since then.
posted by palomar at 1:12 PM on August 27, 2015 [17 favorites]

Thanks for adding the direct link to her Instagram, maxsparber--every time I tried it, the formatting was very wonky (it was so huge as to be unreadable). However, maybe that's just on my end? I hope so.

My favourite exchange (though it was hard to choose):

Why are you on Tinder If you're a feminist?
Nowak: Why are you suggesting respect for women and casual sex are mutually exclusive?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:15 PM on August 27, 2015 [30 favorites]

I just overheard a shitty "catholic schoolgirl outfit" joke a desk away from mine, at the office, which included someone I completely and utterly trusted as decent and understanding and forward-thinking person, and after reading these things I'm seriously about to break down and cry in the bathroom.

Burn it all down. All of it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [20 favorites]

I like the ones that end up turning into teachable moments. I hope for humanity's sake that this is just a gallery of the worst/most interesting and that there's at least some substantial proportion of "hell yeah, feminism!" type responses. Weird how threatening feminism is to some (most??) dudes.
posted by Gymnopedist at 1:23 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really love it when straight dudes tell women they're going to attract fewer guys by doing X. Do they think the point of dating sites is to win by getting the highest quantity of low-investment messages? Can they not conceive of dating issues that aren't "I am not attracting enough people"? Or is it some malicious PUA-type attempt to deceive women about the economics of straight-people-dating?
posted by almostmanda at 1:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]

Wow, thanks for the info, qcubed. I had no idea.
posted by Gymnopedist at 1:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

A few comments deleted. andrewcooke, if you want to talk about deletions, come to the contact form or take it to MetaTalk; commentary about moderation doesn't go on the blue.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:33 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

"klang - look at her actual instagram account. The first comment uses the word cunt and it just gets worse from there."

Huh. Going directly there on my desktop gives me a whole bunch of the entry images blanked out (I can see the instagram comments next to them).

But yeah, when I pop open the mobile stuff it suddenly gets a lot worse.
posted by klangklangston at 1:34 PM on August 27, 2015

yet now, it's like there's some kind of war out there.

No, not now. Always. All the time. Women have been on the receiving end of dumbass comments like this from men since time immemorial, it's just that now we have things like twitter and instagram and the internet to facilitate having it in actual written-down words in an easy-to-share format so we can all get together and cry-laugh at YES, YES EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE because finally, finally, we have something we can point to and say this, this right here when befuddled men look at us all what huh no way not me.
posted by phunniemee at 1:35 PM on August 27, 2015 [159 favorites]

Heh. I had a moment at an upscale bar recently with a dude like the "I jacked off to you" Muhammad fellow. The guy was with his friends, celebrating that one of them was about to be a dad, and came over to flirt with me and a friend. Buying us drinks, agreeing with everything we said, laying on the chivalry thick, doing some obvious PUA stuff, etc. He invited us to follow them to the next bar and we were like, yeah maybe. He went back to his pals.

Meanwhile, our friend, who is a waitress there, came over to us like "look at this super weird thing one of those guys wrote on my check..." They had written a super bizarre sexist, racist comment and drawn a dick on it.

When the guy came back to close, I asked him about the thing one of them had written - like, hey, maybe it wasn't you, but one of your friends definitely wrote this and what's up with that? He first tried to gauge whether I was upset about it, then tried to laugh it off, then was all "I really do apologize, well, you know, we've been drinking, but this isn't normally how we are, again, I apologize."

Yeah, yeah. Hand caught in the cookie jar. Meanwhile none of them apologized to the waitress. I have no doubt how those guys "really are."

I bring this up because I can't tell if Muhammad is really contrite; it seems more like he's agreeing with what Laura says in the hopes that she'll still get with him. He's still trying lines on her and saying that well, at least she responded! I don't know if guys like this experience "learning moments" that teach them to emphasize more with other humans, or just "learning moments" that show them they can be dicks to everyone and get away with it if they occasionally act contrite when caught. I dunno.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [13 favorites]

I love the idea that women being fed up with this bullshit and using social media and other public venues to say so, is creating this really hostile environment that's making people uncomfortable.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [108 favorites]

Oh but I cannot fucking WAIT to use "But have you considered shutting up forever?"
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:43 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]

That's fucking disgusting. My God.

There is at least one person out there on these sites who would shout yea and amen at explicit statements of feminism. I know this doesn't make up for such awful abuse.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:44 PM on August 27, 2015

"Or is it some malicious PUA-type attempt to deceive women about the economics of straight-people-dating?"

I believe Aesop called it "sour grapes."

"No, not now. Always. All the time. Women have been on the receiving end of dumbass comments like this from men since time immemorial, it's just that now we have things like twitter and instagram and the internet to facilitate having it in actual written-down words in an easy-to-share format so we can all get together and cry-laugh at YES, YES EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE because finally, finally, we have something we can point to and say this, this right here when befuddled men look at us all what huh no way not me."

In a perverse incentive sort of way, it'd be rational for guys who aren't assholes to egg on their asshole friends so that their not being an asshole stood out in better contrast. But then, like I mentioned on the last Tinder post, most of my guy friends who are into casual hookups and aren't assholes seem to form regular things and get passed around analog social networks of women (aka theater casts and crews). Once hookups are a collaboration that both parties are into, it seems like both the false dichotomy of casual sex versus respect and the weird bitterness seems to fall away. I can definitely understand why women wouldn't want to venture out into the wider world of entitled misogyny just to get laid.
posted by klangklangston at 1:45 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

(cis het) Dick is abundant and low value.
posted by SassHat at 1:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [17 favorites]

I love (and by love, I mean I am thoroughly baffled by) the comment "... but male dominated society has worked so far and there's no point changing it."

It's like the king, sitting on his golden throne, is scratching his head when the peasants who toil in his fields are revolting about the newest burdensome tax he levied on them. "But monarchy has worked so far, why are they so upset?"
posted by filthy light thief at 1:48 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]

SassHat: Dick is abundant and low value.

To put it another way: "Listen asshole, it's a buyer's market and I don't like what you're selling."
posted by filthy light thief at 1:48 PM on August 27, 2015 [12 favorites]

I really love it when straight dudes tell women they're going to attract fewer guys by doing X.

My dad one time said something along these lines - like, a lot of men don't want to date a funny women - and when I responded "well then I won't date those guys them" he looked sort of surprised but pleased?

I think the root of this is, women nowadays have an enormously greater amount of choice in who, when, and if they marry. When marriage is your only possible future and you need to lock it down by your mid-20s and you're limited to the guys you personally know or can be introduced to, it's a much different situation than what we have today, so women can afford to be choosier.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]

I really love it when straight dudes tell women they're going to attract fewer guys by doing X. Do they think the point of dating sites is to win by getting the highest quantity of low-investment messages?

I think there is a subset (#notallmen) of men who dislike feminism because it enables women to not be in relationships with men like them. The fringe cries for women to lose the vote, ability to own property, etc... and the more centrist direct action being taken to deny women control over our reproduction are all part of pushing back against women being free to not be in relationships with men when we don't want to be.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [48 favorites]

Solon and Thanks: I bring this up because I can't tell if Muhammad is really contrite; it seems more like he's agreeing with what Laura says in the hopes that she'll still get with him. He's still trying lines on her and saying that well, at least she responded! I don't know if guys like this experience "learning moments" that teach them to emphasize more with other humans, or just "learning moments" that show them they can be dicks to everyone and get away with it if they occasionally act contrite when caught. I dunno.

That's a really good point. I definitely get that vibe from that particular conversation. I do hope that some of these end up being educational, though, at least to people who check out Nowak's posts. I guess at the very least Nowak offers lots of creative ammunition to women who don't want to put up with misogynistic bullshit (apologies to bulls) on Tinder.
posted by Gymnopedist at 1:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I would really love to see what happens if, after they pull off their nice guy mask and go Full-On-Evil-Captain-Misogyny, the woman can "change her mind" and get him to want to sleep with her again, only to be rejected again.

I know it's a bit cruel, but it would make what they do look even more foolish, and most of all? Make me just so happy
posted by quadbonus at 1:57 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

so we can all get together and cry-laugh at YES, YES EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE because finally, finally, we have something we can point to and say this, this right here

yes!! i love the way that this sort of sharing helps women see, "that wasn't just me! this happens to other women too!" i would love if dudes bought a clue, but i'm much more interested in women sharing the world we live in and getting validation in knowing that these are shared experiences that we've been encouraged by society to not talk about.
posted by nadawi at 2:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [49 favorites]

"I bring this up because I can't tell if Muhammad is really contrite; it seems more like he's agreeing with what Laura says in the hopes that she'll still get with him. He's still trying lines on her and saying that well, at least she responded! I don't know if guys like this experience "learning moments" that teach them to emphasize more with other humans, or just "learning moments" that show them they can be dicks to everyone and get away with it if they occasionally act contrite when caught. I dunno."

Unfortunately, I don't think you can tell from a distance. I know some former bruh-bruhs who got called out on shit like that and it was a learning moment toward the "Wait, I guess women really do see that as shitty and not as a funny joke!" epiphany; others have only seen it as another Tekken combo to learn. (I've also kind of depressingly seen guys who used to get it slowly turn lazy by hitting on [relative to them] younger and younger women who have less of a sense of being equals and so are less likely to call them out on their shit. Like, yeah, it's less work in some ways to treat people as equals, but it's so much more work in so many other ways that why would you settle for the fawning admiration of someone who doesn't know better when you could have the respect of someone who does?)
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [10 favorites]

> why would you settle for the fawning admiration of someone who doesn't know better when you could have the respect of someone who does?)

There are a lot of guys who think women's default setting towards men should be "fawning admiration."
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:09 PM on August 27, 2015 [13 favorites]

yes!! i love the way that this sort of sharing helps women see, "that wasn't just me! this happens to other women too!"

Probably my favorite thing about the internet is the fact that a single Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook link can utterly decimate any man's gaslighting of a woman in the process of daring to object to either jaw-dropping misogynistic violence or garden-variety woman-hating. Just a few clicks and she'll be presented with a mountain of evidence that she isn't crazy, shrill, rotten, or uniquely broken. Just a few clicks and she can know that she isn't just not alone right now, but that she's never alone.

Sisters, my sisters: We're out here, and we're here for you. Also dick is abundant and low value so please try to forget about that douchebag and let's go out for daiquiris.
posted by divined by radio at 2:12 PM on August 27, 2015 [100 favorites]

I'd like a better look at what a non-objectifying Tinder encounter looks like. I mean, isn't temporary casual sex automatically SO objectifying? Just bring it up on your phone, fill out a profile, do some swiping, and instant sex? If this was about okCupid or another site, then eh... But Tinder is pretty specifically designed for one thing...

Each one of these male responses makes me hurt.
And when I see this information in a girl's bio, it's really encouraging to me.
posted by shenkerism at 2:13 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

There's a PUA manual? Of course there is. Ugg.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:15 PM on August 27, 2015

There's objectifying like "You look super fucking hot and I'm going to contact you solely because of your good looks" and objectifying like "Your gender makes you an object/lesser being and makes me entitled to attention/sex from you."
posted by erratic meatsack at 2:16 PM on August 27, 2015 [25 favorites]

> How does she come up with such a perfectly on point response for each and every asshole?

That depends on whether or not we're seeing a representative sample of her responses, or of respondents in general. We're not, of course. This is a curated sample of a cherry-picked group of screenshots.

One hopes she found people she could get along with; I find it more likely that she didn't include them than that they don't exist on Tinder.
posted by Sunburnt at 2:16 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

there are lots of pua manuals - some of which have instructions on how to rape/get away with rape. there's also classes and workshops and meetups.
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2015

Men: put feminist in your Tinder description. There's a lot of equality-minded woman who need your show of support.

(btw. I don't know exactly how Tinder works. I think the above is a sensible suggestion.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]

One hopes she found people she could get along with

There are definitely dudes on okcupid who have some flavor of "I'm a feminist" in their profiles. I don't know what the actual percentage is across the population, but I'd say it's about 25%-a third of the profiles I've seen, and I only ever click on dudes who are a 90%+ match with myself.
posted by phunniemee at 2:25 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I recently met the lady I think might be.. The Love Of My Life on Tinder of all places. You know how I approached her? Like an actual fucking human being. It's fucking sickening that these dudes have these disgusting entitled attitudes, such closed minds and empty hearts. Are they even capable of loving, of tenderness at all? Do they really think that women WANT this shit? Guess what: there might be more effective ways of flirting than sending fucking dickpics. No-one actually wants to see your shrivelled turd of a cock first thing.

It boggles my mind, it makes me despair for the male of the species.. and cringe in sympathy for all the women out there who've grown so used to it that it's just normalised and expected.

Lift your game you pathetic, insecure dickheads. It is unacceptable the way you behave- and you know it.
posted by Philby at 2:34 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]

I used to know a PUA; he seemed almost if not more concerned with letting his male friends know about how often he scored as with actually, you know, scoring. Once he texted me to let me know that Girl #1 Of The Evening had left his apartment and he was waiting for Girl #2 to arrive. In hindsight, he rarely if ever talked about the quality of the sex, just that he'd had it.

Aside from being gross, it was like, dude...everyone in our circle of friends has been sexually active for over fifteen years. Show some class and act like you've been there before.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:34 PM on August 27, 2015 [10 favorites]

nadawi, divined by radio, phunniemee, yes yes yes! You have just articulated the most powerful phenomenon I witnessed in women's studies classes: when students would listen to their classmates' experiences of sexism [racism, classism, ______ism], and realize, holy shit, this happens to other people and not just me. I am not at fault. This is a societal problem. There is an enormous need for women, people of colour, and other oppressed groups to share their stories and disrupt the normalization of sexism, racism, all the other -isms and -phobias.

Living in a culture steeped in misogyny makes it hard to identify each wire in the birdcage:
Consider a birdcage. If you look very closely at just one wire in the cage, you cannot see the other wires. If your conception of what is before you is determined by this myopic focus, you could look at that one wire, up and down the length of it, and be unable to see why a bird would not just fly around the wire any time it wanted to go somewhere. Furthermore, even if, one day at a time, you myopically inspected each wire, you still could not see why a bird would have trouble going past the wires to get anywhere. There is no physical property of any one wire, nothing that the closest scrutiny could discover, that will reveal how a bird could be inhibited or harmed by it except in the most accidental way. It is only when you step back, stop looking at the wires one by one, microscopically, and take a macroscopic view of the whole cage, that you can see why the bird does not go anywhere; and then you will see it in a moment. It will require no great subtlety of mental powers. It is perfectly obvious that the bird is surrounded by a network of systematically related barriers, no one of which would be the least hindrance to its flight, but which, by their relations to each other, are as confining as the solid walls of a dungeon.
....
As the cageness of the birdcage is a macroscopic phenomenon, the oppressiveness of the situations in which women live our various and different lives is a macroscopic phenomenon. Neither can be seen from a microscopic perspective. But when you look macroscopically you can see it – a network of forces and barriers which are systematically related and which conspire to the immobilization, reduction and molding of women and the lives we live…. (Marilyn Frye, "Oppression")
That's the beauty of what Nowak and others are doing: they are exposing the wires. They're providing us with the macroscopic view, asking us to look at how widespread this kind of misogyny is. Recognizing that the "extremist feminists" being complained about are merely straw women. Asking: do women want to accept this kind of casually cruel treatment? Do men really want to be this casually cruel?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:39 PM on August 27, 2015 [125 favorites]

Just rack up your points and be recognized as Top Alpha Bro by your beta peers.

All of which leads me to suspect that they just want senpai to notice them and women don't even need to be involved in this weird little bro-game.

I will never forget the goggle-eyed look my brother gave me when I told him I would be fine single forever rather than date the loser he had tried to set me up with (in a particularly underhanded/dickish fashion I might add). I was maybe 21 at the time, and he was acting like I was headed to Forever Alone Town and needed his rescue. But next to his crappy idea of a good relationship, Forever Alone Town sounded pretty damn awesome. I later did marry, to a guy of my choice, 8 million times better than the one he pushed at me, but if I hadn't, I'd have been good too.

Guess there's still a lot of guys that think like my brother out there. They are not dealing well with the news that women prefer some occasional loneliness to being saddled with the care and feeding of douchebags (if those are indeed our only choices, which I don't think they usually are). Yes, douchecanoes, women will laugh at your pitiful stinky offer of a shitty relationship and instead spend their days in happy singleness, relieved and delighted to have escaped a life with you. Every time you cross their mind, they'll think "Damn! Dodged a real bullet that time!"
posted by emjaybee at 2:42 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]

Follow-up to "I jerked off to you":

"I apologize. I did not actually pleasure myself to your pictures. I was told it would be a conversation starter."

Young men are told a lot that they have to be a jerk if they want a woman to think about them sexually. In exactly those terms: "You have to be a jerk; women tell you they don't like jerks, but they'll only sleep with you if you're a jerk."
posted by clawsoon at 2:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

And then they get mad when actual women say "No, you are a jerk, I will not give you the sex."

They don't get mad at whatever men taught them this incorrect thing, it seems. Just at women who have the temerity to say "no."
posted by rtha at 2:55 PM on August 27, 2015 [35 favorites]

That particular one-in-a-thousand guy actually said, sorry, thanks for explaining things to me, I've never done that before and I'll never do it again.

He is obviously an outlier, though, based on all the other examples.
posted by clawsoon at 2:57 PM on August 27, 2015

Reminder that if you need a break from reading inflicted misogyny, even with great comebacks next to it, there's always the emotional labor thread. Rereading it definitely worked for me.

Which reminds me, what about a platform/app where you either don't be an ass, or pay as compensation for inflicting it on others? Hopefully it wouldn't crumble from guys reporting women who have the temerity to say no or not respond... nah, who am I kidding.
posted by halifix at 2:58 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

> Young men are told a lot that they have to be a jerk if they want a woman to think about them sexually. In exactly those terms: "You have to be a jerk; women tell you they don't like jerks, but they'll only sleep with you if you're a jerk."

I was never explicitly told this, but unfortunately I still at least partially internalized that message as a young man. The whole "nice guy" thing hadn't spelled out when I was dating, but looking back I can see that some of my attitudes and behaviour definitely fell into that pattern and I didn't realize at the time how poisonous it was.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:59 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

That particular one-in-a-thousand guy actually said, sorry, thanks for explaining things to me, I've never done that before and I'll never do it again.

And as was expressed above by multiple people, there's no way of knowing whether that's actually true or whether he said that as another tactic.
posted by Lexica at 3:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

Fair point.
posted by clawsoon at 3:15 PM on August 27, 2015

misogynistic bullshit (apologies to bulls)

#notallbulls

(Actually, all bulls do shit, so nvm)
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:18 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

On the other hand: Isn't there some value in someone learning that "treating people with respect" is a "good tactic"? In the end, presumably, more mutually enjoyable, mutually respectful sex results, which is good for everybody, no?

It's extrinsic rather than intrinsic morality - people doing the right thing for the wrong reason - but isn't that better than not doing the right thing at all?
posted by clawsoon at 3:24 PM on August 27, 2015

Him: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

Her: How many of my matches have to ask me this before society accepts that we need feminism because a large percentage of men on dating/hookup apps think that gender equality is something to joke about?

I am glad I wore my corset today, for I fear my sides have split
posted by Sebmojo at 3:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]

Well okay, but the purpose of this is not to teach her male correspondents anything.
This instagram is not there for the benefit of men.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [14 favorites]

You know what, you can go through a lot of life being angry as a guy that nice guys finish last. You can even become angry at women for that perception, feeling like you deserve a second look and sex because hey, you've earned it for being a good guy. You might then lash out at women for being slighted, like some of the people in the posted conversations. Life is unfair, right? However, if you take the long view, just keep being a good person despite what goes right or wrong in your life, and don't expect anything out of others except that they are also good people, eventually you meet someone like Laura Nowak and don't make a complete ass out of yourself, and the Laura Nowak's of the world are well worth the wait.

Otherwise, if you take the other approach, it turns out you're really just an asshole and I can use more Laura Nowaks because she makes you amusing.
posted by Muddler at 3:34 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

Well okay, but the purpose of this is not to teach her male correspondents anything.

Based on what I've read so far, she doesn't seem to feel that way; in the rare cases where a "teachable moment" presents itself, she engages in extended "teaching" conversation. Even in many of the cases where she's just having insults thrown at her, she's replying with cogent, informative points. Many of her responses are explicitly about better ways for men to approach women for casual sex, even if they're wrapped in a thick layer of sarcasm. (Most concisely: "What excites you in bed?" "Consent.")

She may burn out, but for now there seems to be a significant amount of teaching going on in how she responds.
posted by clawsoon at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

... Just a few clicks and she'll be presented with a mountain of evidence that she isn't crazy, shrill, rotten, or uniquely broken. Just a few clicks and she can know that she isn't just not alone right now, but that she's never alone.

Sisters, my sisters: We're out here, and we're here for you. Also dick is abundant and low value so please try to forget about that douchebag and let's go out for daiquiris.

This is the true revolution.

And men who want to retain ascendancy over women will have no answer for it except violence and economic oppression.
posted by jamjam at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think that what some men can't fathom is that women don't owe them attention, much less sex.
posted by persona au gratin at 3:45 PM on August 27, 2015 [14 favorites]

The Card Cheat: "Aside from being gross, it was like, dude...everyone in our circle of friends has been sexually active for over fifteen years. Show some class and act like you've been there before."

All I could think of while reading your description of this guy was this.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:45 PM on August 27, 2015

"Dick is abundant and low value" was on Metafilter previously, and spawned an interesting discussion.
posted by clawsoon at 3:51 PM on August 27, 2015

However, if you take the long view, just keep being a good person despite what goes right or wrong in your life, and don't expect anything out of others except that they are also good people, eventually you meet someone like Laura Nowak and don't make a complete ass out of yourself, and the Laura Nowak's of the world are well worth the wait.

Isn't this just just world fallacy though? I think it probably works like this for a lot (even most) people, but I don't think its a guarantee. I think there are good people out there who will end up unloved. However, the point of being a good person is not in getting a reward. Men (and everyone) should be good people because that makes the world a better place.
posted by john-a-dreams at 4:13 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

I would really love to see what happens if, after they pull off their nice guy mask and go Full-On-Evil-Captain-Misogyny, the woman can "change her mind" and get him to want to sleep with her again, only to be rejected again.

I would be sad to see this. It seems disingenuous in a way which reinforces their message that women only exist in relation to men and our relative attractiveness to them, rather than women responding honestly to an unacceptable reality and asserting our existence as people.

Also, it seems like a lot of effort to hurt someone who... I mean, frankly, all evidence I've seen is that men like this are really miserable, and that's why they attack women for the purpose of gaining status with other men. This kind of game-playing, it seems to me, can only muddy the water because the truth is this isn't a game - this is a lot of peoples' lives and senses of self.

It's odd, and a little sad, to me as the father of a 10 year old daughter, that in a world where ISIS has a bureaucracy devoted to the orderly conduct of the slavegirl business, so much energy is being devoted to hating on powerless dudes too socially maladapted to know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics.

I know you mean well. It is not ok to say that because some women are in a worse situation, other women shouldn't speak up - this is a common and damaging claim and it doesn't even help the "slavegirl" you're using as a rhetorical point since in addition to kidnap, assault, battery, and rape she likely also has to deal with men saying mean things to her and wanting to use her for sex - and she will continue to have to deal with the latter even if she escapes.

Women's suffering should not be used as a means of silencing other women. That is not ok. You mean well, you love your daughter, you are probably a perfectly good guy, but don't use women's suffering to silence other women, and don't use women's suffering as a rhetorical point.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:14 PM on August 27, 2015 [117 favorites]

It's odd, and a little sad, to me as the father of a 10 year old daughter, that in a world where ISIS has a bureaucracy devoted to the orderly conduct of the slavegirl business, so much energy is being devoted to hating on powerless dudes too socially maladapted to know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics.

Have you ever considered that being able to grow up into your twenties being "socially maladapted" is often a sign of privilege? Because I know as a young PoC who was one of the only few in an all-white elementary school, I was pretty much entirely isolated in my class. I vividly remember on one occasion, I went to my grade six teacher to ask for help about this kid that was literally punching me in the face every time I passed him in the hallway on a daily basis. She asked me "is this a complaint about someone?" I went "yes", and she told me, "then I don't want to hear about it." Then, when I punched him back once, I got sent to the principal's office with my parents called in.

I later complained about not being treated with the same standards as the other boys. Not just on this occasion, but on almost a daily basis. Every time I did anything another kid did, I was always the one singled out for punishment, I was the only one whose behavior was actually noticed by the teacher. The teachers would listen to complaints about me, but never mine's about the other kids. She sent me to a psychiatrist, and they told me I had autism because I "couldn't see how my behavior was different from that of the other kids." I quickly learned not to be "socially maladapted" as a survival mechanic due to the even greater scrutiny on my behavior.

Black kids who are "socially maladapted" get shot. And if you've been reading the emotional labor thread, you'll also notice that "socially maladapted" girls quickly have to learn not to be either. White boys? "Boys will be boys."

I have no sympathy for any white dude who begs for sympathy under the excuse of being socially maladapted. The rest of us didn't even get the opportunity to.
posted by Conspire at 4:25 PM on August 27, 2015 [168 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom. Which is as it should be.

The threat continuum that starts with ISIS slavegirl managers on the left and ends with perfect feminist / housekeeping / emotional laborers on the right has dorks like these on the extreme harmless right end as well.
posted by MattD at 4:25 PM on August 27, 2015

In a perverse incentive sort of way, it'd be rational for guys who aren't assholes to egg on their asshole friends so that their not being an asshole stood out in better contrast.

There was a comment from someone who all but confessed to doing precisely that in the "Hi Whatcha Reading" thread.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:25 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

Those guys exist outside of Tinder, too.
posted by LindsayIrene at 4:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

In a perverse incentive sort of way, it'd be rational for guys who aren't assholes to egg on their asshole friends so that their not being an asshole stood out in better contrast.

Except that would actually then also make the non-asshole guys into assholes. PARADOX!!

Isn't there some value in someone learning that "treating people with respect" is a "good tactic"? ... It's extrinsic rather than intrinsic morality - people doing the right thing for the wrong reason - but isn't that better than not doing the right thing at all?

Not really. Holding a view of women as chattel will tinge every interaction a man has with a woman, regardless of whether it's superficially respectful. It bleeds everywhere and ruins everything. If a guy uses respect as a "tactic," eventually he'll still flip out when he doesn't get what he wants.

It's odd, and a little sad, to me as the father of a 10 year old daughter, that in a world where ISIS has a bureaucracy devoted to the orderly conduct of the slavegirl business, so much energy is being devoted to hating on powerless dudes too socially maladapted to know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics.

Did you read this FPP yesterday? Go do that and then come back and call these guys harmless.
posted by sunset in snow country at 4:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [13 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom.

They're also the assholes who will yell at her on the street from a moving car, and the ones who will be creepy at her at bars, and the ones who will try to get her drunk enough at college parties that she won't know what she's doing when they take her home with them. Don't fool yourself, they're definitely a threat, and much more of a threat to your daughters than ISIS.

1 out of 6 American women report experiencing sexual assault in their lifetimes. Who exactly do you think is perpetrating those assaults? It's not ISIS.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [79 favorites]

They'll be the ones who make disgusting sexual comments to her, as fully grown adult men, as soon as she starts developing physically. They're the ones who will see her buying junior tampax and say loudly to their friends "if it bleeds you can fuck it!" They'll be the ones who don't actually SAY or DO anything that she could call out but because she is a smart kid she will know exactly what the disgusting creepy predatory look in their eye means. And if she's really smart, she'll know that other people know too, and she'll wonder why no one is doing anything. And she'll start to feel devalued and objectified, even if she doesn't really know those words.

honestly if she's 10 it's probably already started happening.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [82 favorites]

so much energy is being devoted to hating on powerless dudes too socially maladapted to know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics.

LOL at the idea that men who can otherwise hold down jobs and pay their bills being "too socially maladapted" to not act like sex-crazed tantrum-throwing toddlers. They do this shit because they can get away with it, not because they don't know any better or can't help it or whatever.
posted by almostmanda at 4:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [83 favorites]

honestly if she's 10 it's probably already started happening.

SO MUCH YES
posted by LindsayIrene at 4:44 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]

Even if they were socially maladapted, guess how you correct socially maladaptive behavior? By pointing out that it's unacceptable, not by indulging it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:49 PM on August 27, 2015 [39 favorites]

Black kids who are "socially maladapted" get shot. And if you've been reading the emotional labor thread, you'll also notice that "socially maladapted" girls quickly have to learn not to be either. White boys? "Boys will be boys."

I have no sympathy for any white dude who begs for sympathy under the excuse of being socially maladapted. The rest of us didn't even get the opportunity to.

Yes, this.

Also, as a woman who thinks actual nice guys are sexy and hot as hell, I would like the "nice guys finish last" thing to die in a fire. In my experience, the guys who complain about this are most definitely NOT nice guys:

Guys, you’re not “too nice.” That’s like saying you can’t get seated at an L.A. restaurant because you’re too famous...Here are some specific behaviors I have witnessed in guys who think they’re “too nice” when actually they’re “unpleasant.”
posted by triggerfinger at 4:49 PM on August 27, 2015 [28 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom. Which is as it should be.

I am absolutely a laugh-and-discard kind of person, too, helped in no small part by my dad raising me with the attitude that people who say mean things to me are idiots. But I can also tell you that it gets harder and harder to laugh at them as time goes on.

I passed the point of laughing them off a long time ago. Now it just makes me mad. Now it makes my heart hurt because girls today are growing up with internet communication being the norm, so it's absolutely inescapable. One asshole from school can copy and paste a selfie from a facebook profile and get tens of thousands of assholes around the world to say mean, misogynistic things about it and it will never really go away. Laugh-and-discard was a lot easier when my world was smaller. If Tinder had been around 12 years ago when I started dating I'd probably have gotten there sooner.

At least try not to be dismissive when your daughter grows weary of laughing them off.
posted by phunniemee at 4:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [46 favorites]

The threat continuum that starts with ISIS slavegirl managers on the left and ends with perfect feminist / housekeeping / emotional laborers on the right has dorks like these on the extreme harmless right end as well.

Lol. No. What? Jesus fuck, no. Do you think most women who are groped and raped and harassed in this world are groped, raped, and harassed by ISIS? No, it's by all of these entitled, "maladjusted" asshats that the other men around us dismiss as "harmless." It's by their husbands and boyfriends and classmates and men they go on dates with and bosses and coworkers. The perception that they're harmless is why women can't get adequate protection from stalkers. It's why any rape victim is automatically doubted. It's why women at conventions and in public are harassed and nobody does fuck all.

Those dudes are the dudes your daughter has to deal with. Is already dealing with, no doubt, as others have mentioned above. And you don't do her any favors by boasting to the Internet about how she is Obviously So Tough and Above All That and HA HA, It Is to Laugh. That's the story you tell yourself so that you don't have to confront your daughter's lived experiences.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:54 PM on August 27, 2015 [124 favorites]

and yeah, no man who thinks opening a conversation with "i jerked off over your photo" is harmless, especially if his follow up is "someone told me to say it". that's the guy who might not be first but will easily be second in line to rape some passed out drunk girl at a frat party. because someone told him to do it.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:59 PM on August 27, 2015 [22 favorites]

Folks, this conversation really really needs to steer away from ISIS comparisons. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:00 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

Not really. Holding a view of women as chattel will tinge every interaction a man has with a woman, regardless of whether it's superficially respectful

I think this is the origin of the idea of "white knighting", wherein idiots who literally cannot imagine treating women as people see genuinely respectful behaviour as merely a tactic used by the emasculated. Uuuugh.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:00 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]

> Here are some specific behaviors I have witnessed in guys who think they’re “too nice” when actually they’re “unpleasant.”

Great article. I wish someone had told me all of that when I was 19.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

As a male, does mentioning your feminism in a tinder bio actually help? I haven't gotten any positive feedback. Does any variant of "I think we'd both enjoy it" not come across as pathetic?

Many things I know obviously not to say to a woman, but "I like you are you interested in me" has pretty much unequivocally yielded crickets or a no, even on Tinder when we've matched each other mutually.

When you're doing online dating stuff, starting a conversation needs to be starting a conversation, and not an invitation to date. I don't like Tinder because the profile options are sparse, but you should go through and find something either in one of her pictures or in something that she's written and use that as a jumping off point. "Did you take that picture at Rogers Beach? Is that weird little sculpture of Yoda still there?" or whatever.

Same thing as approaching a person with Intent to Date in any other context, really. Jumping right to the "do you want to date me" thing is pretty much shorthand for "my body is attracted to your body," which is fine in some situations, but also completely ignores the fact that the person you're talking to is a whole person with a personality you'd also like to get to know. So start neutral, prove that you're 1) interested in her enough to be observant, 2) have enough going on in your life to carry your end of the conversation, and 3) can be conversant and casual without worrying about your dick's endgame. In short: act like you actually want to get to know her because she's interesting.
posted by phunniemee at 5:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]

As a male, does mentioning your feminism in a tinder bio actually help? I haven't gotten any positive feedback. Does any variant of "I think we'd both enjoy it" not come across as pathetic?

YMMV. Back when I dated through tinder, I definitely found it a huge turn-on if dudes outright said they were feminist. It's super rare and always seems like a courageous statement to make, to me. Something simple works: "I like feminism, wes anderson movies, and snowboarding." Whatever.

I don't like Tinder much in general, though. Too overwhelming and awkward. I think Bumble's a better app, both for being less inundating and for being full of more feminist men.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics

I'm really not sure that not making insulting remarks about women is a matter of gender politics. How about a matter of good manners? We need to stop seeing aggression towards the other in adults as a symptom of social awkwardness.
posted by frumiousb at 5:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [24 favorites]

Somewhere inside me is the 10-year-old girl I used to be who still feels the fresh sting of being told by someone I love and trust that a thing I said hurt me didn't really hurt because there are much worse things out there (that might could hurt me later in life!).

Ouch.
posted by rtha at 5:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [55 favorites]

If I ever end up back on okcupid I'm totally putting feminist in my profile. Every shitty date and underwhelming relationship I've ever had has been with someone who would have filtered me out based on that, I'd guess.

Actually, in general now that I'm older and have less fucks to give about appealing to a broad base of mediocre dudes, the possibilities for filtering seem endless.
posted by geegollygosh at 6:02 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]

Living in a culture steeped in misogyny makes it hard to identify each wire in the birdcage:

It was already a good day, but Marilyn Frye quoted on Metafilter? Yay!
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:17 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Actually, in general now that I'm older and have less fucks to give about appealing to a broad base of mediocre dudes, the possibilities for filtering seem endless.

psst...shave your head and put bald-you as one of your profile pics! Best thing that ever happened to my dating profile.
posted by phunniemee at 6:19 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

Actually, in general now that I'm older and have less fucks to give about appealing to a broad base of mediocre dudes, the possibilities for filtering seem endless.

psst...shave your head and put bald-you as one of your profile pics! Best thing that ever happened to my dating profile.

Ha...even just a severe cut from long to short will do the trick and bottleneck down all sorts of shit. There's one crossfitting Tough Mudder corporate lawyer who was visiting my profile every. day. for weeks, long after he graciously accepted the, "thanks for the repeat messages but I don't think we'd be compatible"reply and now....nothing.

I like to call it the "that's right, I did not consult your boner first" haircut.
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [30 favorites]

I have a friend who is single and awesome and gorgeous and on dating sites, and when she cut her hair? The things men said to her! Men who did not know her in the least! Men who allegedly want dates!

Dudes. If what you want is a date, do not say shit like that.

jesus god but I am glad I am an old married dyke.
posted by rtha at 7:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [21 favorites]

too socially maladapted to know what they're allowed to say in writing about gender politics.

I am 43 years old. I was a teenager in the 1980s. I was not socially well-adapted. I found it hard to talk to girls. It was not a time when people's language was particularly sensitive. I called things "faggy" or "retarded" if I didn't care for them.

But I sure as hell knew not to tell a girl I'd jerked off to her picture. I would no more have done that than I would have told a teacher fuck off, I'm not doing your homework. This is not some kind of subtle new rule that was just invented yesterday by a politically correct planning committee!

It really doesn't bug you, as a father of a son, that this is the kind of thing your son's friends are going to be telling him is the way to approach girls he likes? Or do you really think he's getting 100% of his ideas about dating from you?

It bugs me. It bugs me that I can't raise my daughter in a world where men don't treat her like that, and that I can't really do anything about it. But at least I can try as hard as I can raise my son to not be one of those men. Maybe you think that's easy and if you raise a kid who's a decent, empathetic person he'll just automatically not act this way. I'm worried that's not enough. I'm worried that my son is growing up in a culture where lots of people are telling him this is how women, aside from a few shrill harpies, want to be talked to.

I promise also to teach both my kids not to join ISIS.
posted by escabeche at 8:00 PM on August 27, 2015 [57 favorites]

I was just the other day thinking that if I ended up single again and online dating, I would list "feminist" first in the list of things I was looking for in a potential match. Anyone who found that offputting isn't someone I would want to date.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

I've been considering signing up for online dating. I figure being fat will do the work of feminist, but I'll probably have both even if I know I'll inevitably have men contacting me and telling me I'm feminist because I'm fat.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Feminism: the radical idea that it's not ok for men to be dicks to women.

It's not just that not enough fathers aren't teaching their sons not to be dicks to women. It's that too many fathers are actively teaching their sons to be dicks to women. And getting away with it.

My own father tried to teach me to be a dick to women. We never really got on, I wasn't having any of it, there were other issues, and it so happens that as of recently we no longer talk. Meanwhile I continue to try not to be a dick to women. Sometimes I fail. Like my dad, I can be kind of a dick sometimes in general. I try not to but often fuck up. But if I acted towards women in the way my dad tried to tell me to? I'd be a total dick.

There's no medal for not being a dick to women and nor should there be. Nor is there any sympathy for those men taught by their fathers to be dicks to women who failed to see that there was even a problem with that. But this is, I think, the shape of things.

The questions are: a) how to get men who were taught by their own fathers to be dicks to women to stop teaching their sons to carry that tradition on, and b) how to get sons currently being taught by their fathers to be dicks to women to say "No dad, that's bullshit, it doesn't work like that any more, I'm not going to go around being a dick to women."

I'm aware that this comment is itself kind of dickish. Where is the acknowledgement of non-normative families or even the influence of mothers on sons? As for the former, I just don't know, and as for the latter, when young men are taught by their fathers to believe that the opinions of women aren't relevant, there is a limited amount anyone else can do.

Let's assume everyone here is busy teaching their sons not to be dicks to women. That's great, but it's not enough. What can be done about all those sons out there who are being actively taught to be dicks to women?
posted by motty at 8:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [10 favorites]

when young men are taught by their fathers to believe that the opinions of women aren't relevant, there is a limited amount anyone else can do.

Let's assume everyone here is busy teaching their sons not to be dicks to women. That's great, but it's not enough. What can be done about all those sons out there who are being actively taught to be dicks to women?

I am not a parent, but I think that you - a parent who wants to do the right thing (if you are a parent) - have more influence than you realize. I've had lots of experiences with lots of men and boys throughout my life who have been horrible to me and other women/girls. But at the same time, I've also had lots of experiences with guys who were perfectly fine and not only managed to not once harass, threaten or assault me, but also generally treated me like a person deserving of respect by virtue of just being a fellow human. So I think it is possible to raise boys to resist some of the worse parts of our culture.

I think Everyday Feminism is a great resource for people who are interested in these issues. Here are two articles that (I think) are great:

On Parenting and Rape Culture
Want to Be a Feminist Parent?: 4 Goals to Consider
posted by triggerfinger at 9:52 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

Young men are told a lot that they have to be a jerk if they want a woman to think about them sexually. In exactly those terms: "You have to be a jerk; women tell you they don't like jerks, but they'll only sleep with you if you're a jerk."

Things like Nowak's instagram are very helpful in shaking off this thinking. If a guy is honestly being a jerk because he thinks that's what's expected of him and/or that's what women will respond to, evidence of women reacting to dickish behavior helps undercut the logic. I know that hearing from women what women want and how they want to be treated was tremendously helpful for me in escaping some of my toxic indoctrination (and is still tremendously helpful for me in continuing to escape from the rest of it).
posted by IAmUnaware at 10:43 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

"But I sure as hell knew not to tell a girl I'd jerked off to her picture."

Not unless you met her through alt.sex.tribute-me.
posted by klangklangston at 11:13 PM on August 27, 2015

misogynistic bullshit (apologies to bulls)

#notallbulls

In fairness, I think Jordan has a bad reputation for that kind of thing.
posted by jaduncan at 5:08 AM on August 28, 2015

I saw a twitter exchange the other day where a woman highlighted something that was sexist and problematic (I believe it was rape jokes, but not totally sure), and the following exchange ensued:

Dude: why is this an issue?
Twitter lady: [explains reasons]
Dude: ah okay. That makes sense. Thanks for being a non-crazy feminist.
Twitter lady: well this was almost a nice exchange.
Dude: What? What'd I say?

Ah, you were so close dude.

(A couple of replies later he was all "females be dramatic" and dropping his white male privilege everywhere)

Dudes be oblivious.
posted by dry white toast at 5:26 AM on August 28, 2015 [19 favorites]

triggerfinger: Also, as a woman who thinks actual nice guys are sexy and hot as hell, I would like the "nice guys finish last" thing to die in a fire. In my experience, the guys who complain about this are most definitely NOT nice guys:

Interesting link. When I was growing up, I was more-or-less taught that having sexual energy and self-confidence with women is being a jerk. That took a long time to un-learn.

That's probably common for a lot of NiceGuys(TM), and a useful message for them: You can be genuinely kind and have a sexual spark at the same time.

That probably seems stupidly obvious to those of you who knew it already, but there was nothing in my upbringing (western Canadian Evangelical) which hinted at that fact. (I also learned very late that you can be intellectual and sexy at the same time; that was completely outside my radar, and it wasn't until I saw a French film in my 20s about a dashing intellectual that it occurred to me that smart+sexy might go together for a guy. Ah, the things we learn late...)
posted by clawsoon at 7:10 AM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom. Which is as it should be.

Wow no. I bet if you asked my parents about me as a teenage girl they would say (and believe) that I was strong enough to laugh at and then ignore that sort of thing, too. But, no. The guy that sent me constant sexual texts and pictures for two years during high school, I assure you I cried about that. (You can't always just block them, either, especially if it's someone in the periphery of your friend group). I definitely was also hurt by hateful, misogynist comments online, too. The type of guys who loosely fit into the category of "guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder" (not that Tinder was a thing during my teenage years, thankfully) were very much the same guys that did these things.
posted by lwb at 7:14 AM on August 28, 2015 [27 favorites]

It seems to me that guys who are jerks and dicks to women are part of what I'd say is a broad general spectrum of men who are assholes. There are just so many of them out there. Everyone has to deal with them.

They're assholes to women, they're assholes to other drivers, they're assholes in the office, they're assholes to waitstaff, they're assholes to people waiting in line at the bank.

Other than euthanasia, I haven't the foggiest idea what our society can do about them. It seems like we all just have to suffer their presence. It sucks.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:45 AM on August 28, 2015

Other than euthanasia, I haven't the foggiest idea what our society can do about them. It seems like we all just have to suffer their presence. It sucks.

I have a half-baked theory about history which says that the most important problem for a society to solve is what to do with its assholes, especially its most talented alpha-male assholes. For most of history, those guys had actual jobs which involved killing (and raping, maiming, burning, etc.) as many people as possible. We're doing much better today; today, those guys mostly build giant companies (and occasionally products that make our lives better). (Think: Napoleon vs. Steve Jobs.) There's still some killing and raping and maiming going on, but it's mostly incidental rather than their actual job.

So we've come a long way, but we've still got a long way to go.
posted by clawsoon at 8:08 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Women have to deal with them in ways far more hurtful than someone being a jerk to you in traffic or at work. They have to deal with them hating them for who they are. This isn't an "assholes gonna be assholes" problem that everyone experiences the same.
posted by agregoli at 8:09 AM on August 28, 2015 [14 favorites]

Instead of "mostly incidental", I should've said that the raping and maiming and killing is mostly something they do on their own initiative, rather than something that's explicitly in their contract and for which they get paid.

Mostly.
posted by clawsoon at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2015

They're assholes to women, they're assholes to other drivers, they're assholes in the office, they're assholes to waitstaff, they're assholes to people waiting in line at the bank.

Yeah, if only. What is more true in my observation (as a man) is that there's a baseline level of casual sexism that permeates the majority of male interactions with women that their privilege doesn't let them see. I've seen way too many examples of otherwise decent men throwing around sexist and entitled words and attitudes like these things are just a given.

Just firing all the assholes into the sun won't fix this.
posted by dry white toast at 8:24 AM on August 28, 2015 [29 favorites]

In addition to questioning the "oh, they're assholes to everyone" aspect, I'm not really sure how shrugging and saying that we just have to deal with this behavior helps anything. Social pressure is a thing, and it can be wielded to good effect. Speaking out against rape culture, shining light on toxic, misogynist attitudes and behavior, and anything else that people do to say this is not fucking okay - this is all meaningful and important. Hell, reread divined by radio's comment - women getting confirmation that what they are experiencing is widespread and unacceptable IS helpful. So much easier to push back when you're not constantly second-guessing yourself and reacting to all those messages saying that boys will be boys and women who object are shrill, crazy, etc.

Speaking from personal experience, even just reading threads like these has greatly increased my awareness of the very ugly, very real dynamics that we're all swimming in. Not only does this change my behavior and what I'm unwilling to let slide, but it also affects what I say to other women. I hope I am better able to support my friends and acquaintances in trusting their own feelings and in confidently calling bullshit when they are being maltreated because of their gender.

Learned helplessness isn't going to affect a damn thing. Parents teaching their daughters not to accept misogynistic behavior, teaching their sons to respect women, people calling misogynists out on their actions and otherwise making clear it is unacceptable - this is how change happens.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:37 AM on August 28, 2015 [15 favorites]

Just firing all the assholes into the sun won't fix this.

well we wont know until we TRY now will we
posted by poffin boffin at 8:46 AM on August 28, 2015 [42 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom.

I gotta ask, have you talked to your daughter about this? More importantly, have you LISTENED to your daughter about this? Because just your use of the future tense makes me think that perhaps the reality you imagine for her and the reality she lives in may not be as closely related as you might think.

My daughter was just telling me yesterday about a situation where some "very competitive boys" were telling her that "boys are better than girls at everything." So she challenged them to a foot race, which she handily won, at which point the boys began taunting her and saying that she was fat. My daughter is eight.*

*and has a BMI of 15, which I only include in order to make it clear how readily children learn that "fat" is an all-purpose thing to make a girl feel crappy and not any kind of objective descriptor
posted by KathrynT at 10:20 AM on August 28, 2015 [50 favorites]

I Favorited your comment, KathrynT, because there is no "boo" option.

Boo, little boys.
posted by maxsparber at 10:21 AM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

^this. I remember gendered insults that young as well. Simply for being female, or showing up a boy academically or physically.
posted by agregoli at 10:22 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]

If they don't call you "fat" they will call you "ugly". "you look like a boy" was a regular epithet when I was a short-haired, fierce little girl.
posted by emjaybee at 10:27 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]

i was 8 or 9 when the gendered insults started. i was 10ish when i got the reputation as a slut (for having the bad sense to let my boobs grow). i never told my dad about most of it.
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on August 28, 2015 [16 favorites]

I was 8 or 9 when the gendered insults started, too, and shortly after that I also got called a slut just for having grown boobs. I never told any of the adults in my life, because they were of the opinion that I was a strong girl who could handle everything myself and would just laugh it off. Not feeling like I could go to the adults in my life without disappointing them because I wasn't the tough-as-nails little creature they thought I was really messed me up for a long, long time, and I still have a hard time asking for help when I need it.

Don't fuck up your kids like this, please.
posted by palomar at 10:31 AM on August 28, 2015 [25 favorites]

The best-all-time-links on that is like all the truth about dating that it took me several messy years to figure out, in something you can read on your phone in 45 minutes.

I can guar-an-damn-fucking-tee ya that nothing any male needs to know about not being an asshole to females is going to be learned by anything you read, let alone anything you read on your smartphone in 45 minutes.
posted by blucevalo at 10:35 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Guys who pick political fights with women they're chatting with on Tinder aren't the kind of guys whose texts will make my daughter cry, they're the losers whose texts she'll laugh at until she blocks them out of boredom. Which is as it should be.

Hm. Maybe. My parents both always marveled at what an incredibly independent, strong-willed, confident person I am, and in fact that seems to be the impression most people have of me. But when I was 12 years old I was raped (just, you know, straight up raped in the traditional meaning) by my first boyfriend. I never told anyone; my dad is dead now, not that I EVER would have talked to him about anything, but my mom still doesn't know and she's 72. And of course that was only the beginning. I've never told anyone most of this stuff, only some of it to my husband, but definitely none to my parents. Maybe you will have a truly exceptional relationship with your daughter, but even so I bet you won't know most of what happens to her. And believe me, it will be a lot.
posted by HotToddy at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2015 [16 favorites]

The filter works the other way too. People who market their political affiliations on social media are often tiresome in person. So the misogynistic fools tried to pick a fight. Probably a bunch of decent enough guys just swiped left because they thought such a fight was likely, even if they weren't trying to start it.

If I'm looking for a romantic partner or even hookup, I'm more interested in the person's aesthetics, pastimes, sense of humor, and yes, physical appearance than I am in their political views. If they wear those views on their sleeve, like I can't get to know them until they're announced, I'm not interested.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:41 AM on August 28, 2015

I don't really think of "feminist" as being political in the context of a dating or hookup app.
posted by KathrynT at 11:42 AM on August 28, 2015 [16 favorites]

i would be glad to not hook up with someone who views being feminist as a political stance.
posted by nadawi at 11:44 AM on August 28, 2015 [38 favorites]

If I'm looking for a romantic partner or even hookup, I'm more interested in the person's aesthetics, pastimes, sense of humor, and yes, physical appearance than I am in their political views.

And I'm looking for someone who doesn't believe I'm a lesser being because I have a vagina.

Maybe, and this is totally coming out of left field I know, but maybe you don't consider a potential mate's feminism to be of any importance to you because you're not a woman?
posted by palomar at 11:46 AM on August 28, 2015 [36 favorites]

I don't see how the label "feminist" could be construed as anything *but* political, on a dating app or elsewhere. I mean, it's not campaigning for some policy or candidate. But it certainly connotes a set of beliefs, attitudes, and priorities, so I would consider it political. Some of those under the header "feminist" are easy to agree with, others not so much.

But regardless of whether I agree with them personally, they tend to concern contentious subject matter, and that is not the framework I'm in when looking for romantic partners. YMMV.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:46 AM on August 28, 2015

If I'm looking for a romantic partner or even hookup, I'm more interested in the person's aesthetics, pastimes, sense of humor, and yes, physical appearance than I am in their political views.

physical appearance: female
pastimes: being female in public
sense of humor: dwindling
posted by phunniemee at 11:47 AM on August 28, 2015 [38 favorites]

Palomar, I do not think of "feminism" as meaning "doesn't believe I'm a lesser being because I have a vagina."

I do not think it means that to most people either.

I like it when my romantic partners don't think of labels like "feminist" as either necessary or sufficient to imply "not misogynist." Again, YMMV.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:49 AM on August 28, 2015

if "women are people" comes off as contentious to someone, i'll be glad that they swipe on by.
posted by nadawi at 11:49 AM on August 28, 2015 [20 favorites]

Yeah, I think I'm seeing how listing myself as a feminist on dating profiles is actually the best idea ever. Especially if it keeps away the kind of guy who only sees feminism in a political view and finds it off-putting to have to talk to people to whom feminism matters.

Ugh.
posted by palomar at 11:50 AM on August 28, 2015 [31 favorites]

I still don't see how feminism can be said to be "not political." Anyway, I guess I'm getting at what I see as a likely pugilistic disposition. Like the propensity to misattribute beliefs and attitudes to me based on my not adopting certain labels like that I "find it off-putting to have to talk to people to whom feminism matters."

I'm just talking about what people put in their tinder bios and such. Surveillance policy is important to me, but I don't discuss it in my Tinder bio, and I would swipe left on someone who did.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:55 AM on August 28, 2015

i think the person who put this together and anyone who would put feminist in their profile would be fine with not fucking you. that seems to bother you more than it bothers any of us.
posted by nadawi at 11:57 AM on August 28, 2015 [40 favorites]

If you'd swipe left on someone who puts "I am a feminist" in their Tinder bio, it says far more about you and your beliefs than it does about the person you swiped left on.

Frankly, a man who swipes left on me solely because I am a feminist and willing to admit it is a man-shaped bullet I have thankfully dodged.
posted by palomar at 12:01 PM on August 28, 2015 [21 favorites]

In short: I can't fuck someone who thinks feminism is something worthy of being dismissive and snotty about. So yeah, swiping left on feminists is totally within your rights, but it doesn't make you look like a good man.
posted by palomar at 12:02 PM on August 28, 2015 [11 favorites]

Where do you get that impression? I'm just saying I am unlikely to feel comfortable around someone who puts words like feminist on their Tinder bio. That's my only claim.

Where do you get the sense that I am hurt by failing to have sex with such people? As far as I know, no one I've had sex with puts titles like that on their social media profiles. I'm fine with that. If every woman I was attracted to did so, then yes, I would feel sad and lonely.

Fortunately for me, that is not the case, or even close. Nadawi and I, for example, probably wouldn't have a good time a date, and this disagreement highlights that. The "feminist" filter therefore worked for both of us.
posted by andrewpcone at 12:03 PM on August 28, 2015

I'm just saying I am unlikely to feel comfortable around someone who puts words like feminist on their Tinder bio. That's my only claim.

They're unlikely to feel comfortable around you either, champ. What do you want here?
posted by phunniemee at 12:04 PM on August 28, 2015 [24 favorites]

Surveillance policy is important to me, but I don't discuss it in my Tinder bio, and I would swipe left on someone who did.

I suspect you would feel differently if a large portion of the messages you got were from people asking you for your browsing history.
posted by kagredon at 12:05 PM on August 28, 2015 [21 favorites]

i think he wants to admit we're all tiresome and losing out on decent dudes. i think it's been illustrated that we might define some words differently.
posted by nadawi at 12:06 PM on August 28, 2015 [18 favorites]

Nah. Decent dudes aren't scared of a word.
posted by palomar at 12:07 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

I certainly don't think you are losing out on decent dudes like me. Probably you wouldn't like me, regardless of whether you or I would consider me "decent." I'm just saying it's good for guys like me to avoid partners who irritate us, and some of us (at least I) use information like this as a filter.

kagredon, this is a good point. My instinct in this case would be to put something more like "not gonna give you your browsing history, so plz dont ask" than "civil libertarian. surveillance policy geek. free manning!"
posted by andrewpcone at 12:11 PM on August 28, 2015

I'm just saying it's good for guys like me to avoid partners who irritate us, and some of us (at least I) use information like this as a filter.

This is literally the entire point of the FPP link.
posted by phunniemee at 12:12 PM on August 28, 2015 [30 favorites]

andrewpcone, you're saying that a) you'd be irritated by feminist dates, and that b) you'd rather not see that information on their profiles.

Can you make up your mind? Would you rather be forewarned or irritated because the date suddenly demanded being treated as an equal?
posted by sukeban at 12:16 PM on August 28, 2015 [12 favorites]

Oh gosh I hope it's the latter and it's in a public coffee shop because then someone might live-tweet it for my amusement.
posted by phunniemee at 12:18 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm not saying (a) at all. Not everyone who considers themselves feminist puts it on their profiles.

I do not think I need words like "feminist," on my profile or on others'—or perhaps anywhere else—to see women as equals.
posted by andrewpcone at 12:20 PM on August 28, 2015

Enough, folks, this isn't an interview.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:24 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Oh, I see a major disconnect here. Women aren't putting "I am a feminist" or whatever on their dating profiles to benefit you or any other man, dude. It actually has nothing to do with your well-being or your feelings at all. It's primarily about weeding out unsuitable men who object to feminism or the expression of feminism.

I think if more men could grasp that women do things all the time for their own benefit, not for the benefit of any random man they might encounter, that would be really great.
posted by palomar at 12:51 PM on August 28, 2015 [43 favorites]

And that neatly ties together this discussion thread with the comments earlier about women with short haircuts - I saw a blog post a while back (which I won't bother linking to because it's abhorrent) written by a guy who felt that women who cut their hair short were committing an act of aggression against him. Because, you know, everyone knows that short hair isn't attractive on women, so the only possible reason for it would be to upset a man. It was truly mind-boggling.
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:01 PM on August 28, 2015 [31 favorites]

I do not think I need words like "feminist," on my profile or on others'—or perhaps anywhere else—to see women as equals.

you do if you think the presence of this word on someone's profile means that they will be shrill and tiresome and irritating. the word for that assumption is misogyny.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:16 PM on August 28, 2015 [40 favorites]

bye felicia
posted by poffin boffin at 1:16 PM on August 28, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'm getting reminded of the Jason in the link of another Tinder FPP.

“There’s a lot of girls who are just like, Check me out, I’m hot, I’m wearing a bikini,” says Jason, the Brooklyn photographer, who on his OkCupid profile calls himself a “feminist.” “I don’t know if it’s my place to tell a girl she shouldn’t be flaunting her sexuality if that’s what she wants to do. But,” he adds, “some guys might take the wrong idea from it.”

It's not your place, Jason. That's the entire point. In a similar fashion, I'm pretty sure that Laura doesn't care that she might miss out on "decent enough guys," or others who gauge personality on a single blurb.
posted by halifix at 1:33 PM on August 28, 2015 [10 favorites]

Well okay, but the purpose of this is not to teach her male correspondents anything.

Based on what I've read so far, she doesn't seem to feel that way; in the rare cases where a "teachable moment" presents itself, she engages in extended "teaching" conversation

Actually, I read that very differently. Yes, she gives straight, honest, feminist replies. But it's an experiment, or art.
Most of us wouldn't bother answering guys like that honestly because who wants to deal with the fall out? And to what gain? So we can incur 50 dickish or stupid answers in order to give one man food for thought? sorry guys, it's the height of self importance to think a woman on a dating site is remotely interested in being anyone's teacher.

So for me it's really fascinating to see what happens when she gives a straight answer. And also, what happens is in equal parts horrifying, cathartic and amusing.

I feel like she's doing this thing for me and all my fellow women.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:53 PM on August 28, 2015 [8 favorites]

I have to say the development of this thread has been really interesting. And the last paragraph of this comment by divined by radio (way back when) feels important right now:

And not to harp, but my whole damn life is political, has been since birth, I dunno, I've always had the impression that's it's kind of the whole deal with life as a woman in a patriarchy. I just don't have the option to make my belief that women are human apolitical by fiat, for any reason, up to and including a simple desire to take part in discussions on a generalist site -- or literally anywhere else in the world that isn't delineated by explicitly feminist boundaries -- without having my humanity litigated or repeatedly called into question. I really wish I did, though.

posted by erratic meatsack at 8:04 PM on August 28, 2015 [13 favorites]

Conspire wrote:

She sent me to a psychiatrist, and they told me I had autism because I "couldn't see how my behavior was different from that of the other kids."

I'm bicultural and some white friends have assumed I am on the autistic spectrum (as far as I know, I am not), and it is so gratifying to see your comment as proof that I am not alone.
posted by brainwane at 10:04 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Actually, in general now that I'm older and have less fucks to give about appealing to a broad base of mediocre dudes, the possibilities for filtering seem endless.

This is one of the most beautiful things about ageing. The not giving a fuck. The double-edged realization that few people ever really gave a fuck when you did, and thus that very few people give a fuck when you don't.

I rejoined OKC a few days ago, this has to be my tenth return to the site in as many years. In my first profiles I put that I was a feminist, and indeed it was a very good filter. I took it off a few years later, though, because, well, I had only ever gotten negative reactions to it. I'm in a country where it still has more of a negative stigma than in the States, despite being home to some huge-name feminists (Simone de Beauvoir as just one). "Better to give men more of a chance, maybe it's turning them off too quickly when a real-life discussion would prove them to hold more complex ideas." Hahahahahahaha aha, ahem, no. Not for the men who would have been filtered. Which still turned out to be all of them.

Back to now – my old profile was still the one up, and after reading this thread, I added to it. Here's my first paragraph (this is in addition to all the other stuff): A quiet creative originally from Oregon, in France for a couple of decades now, currently Paris. Looking to meet a kindhearted, diversity-loving man with a penchant for living life empathetically and yet also on his own terms. He would also recognize the value of feminism.

So you've got several big things to latch on there, and an additional "yo dude, I hope to share my life with a man who's taken the effort to grok feminism," without even mentioning to what extent. Because for me, any independent effort to approach feminism on his own terms (like that other thing I say! yep!) would set him apart.

First message since I put it up! 45-year-old guy, 96% match.

"Hi there, I really liked your profile. One thing stands out to me though..."

have you guessed what it is, fellow MeFites? HAVE YOU GUESSED??

"...I noticed you mention feminism..."

I BET YOU HAD GUESSED

"Could you explain to me what that means?"

lol you're not living life on your own terms dude, that's two strikes now

"Does it mean men can't ask you out?"

three strikes
didn't finish the rest of his message
posted by MarionnetteFilleDeChaussette at 5:10 AM on August 29, 2015 [16 favorites]

"Does it mean men can't ask you out?"

Interesting comment to make on a dating site, in response to a profile of someone "looking to meet a... man".
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:04 AM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Interesting comment to make on a dating site, in response to a profile of someone "looking to meet a... man".

It probably won't come as a surprise that the questions that made him a 96% match rather than 99% were all along the lines of these two: "do you enjoy provoking people?" answer: "yes, often" ~ "do you get so angry that sometimes you kick, smash, or punch inanimate objects?" answer: "yes"
posted by MarionnetteFilleDeChaussette at 6:50 AM on August 29, 2015

OK, sarcasm meter is acting up... are those seriously questions on a dating site profile? Having never done one (Note to self: Go clean the kid's toilet like my wife asked. Stay married.), I can't tell if that's real or not. They sound like good questions to ask, but instead of continuing with the profile it should just pop up a notice saying, "hey, maybe you should deal with that first". If you can honestly answer that question yes, but are looking to enter a relationship without changing that behaviour first, it seems damned obvious to me where it will end up.

Or maybe you were just joking, but I have a feeling that there's a kernel of truth even if it's in jest.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 7:58 AM on August 29, 2015

Yes those are real questions. Okcupid has a whole host of weirdass questions. My favorite one is something along the lines of "have you ever stolen a pair of your crush's underwear to smell them?"

Found that one by browsing the Q&As in one of my 100% enemy's profiles a few years back.
posted by phunniemee at 8:05 AM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

w/r/t self-labeling and subsequent winnowing out of prospective mates by using the word "feminist" as a filter, I feel like the difference between a woman labeling herself as such and a man doing the same are like night and day.

When a woman calls herself a feminist, my brain translates her declaration as "chances are good she's not going to let sexist behavior pass unremarked upon," with a side of "chances are also good that she's done some difficult work chipping away at her own internalized misogyny." It's powerful, it's got some real heft to it. Because unless they're in a situation where assumptions to the contrary are likely, like at a GOP convention or something, women (as people) don't usually feel the need to use the word "feminist" as a stand-in for "I think women are people." But as evidenced by the OP and a bunch of the comments here, many, many men will consider a woman's adoption of the label downright threatening regardless of how they translate it.

Whereas when a man calls himself a feminist, unless he's a bona fide anti-sexist activist, my brain translates his declaration as "I want a cookie." Like when white folks feel the point out that they aren't racist. Because if you ask a man why he labels himself "feminist" (or if you ask a white person why they feel the need to label themselves as "not racist"), nine times out of ten, he's going to want to talk about EQUALITY*. He's not going to want to talk about the deep discomfort that can arise when he recognizes his unearned privileges or how living in a patriarchal white supremacist culture poisons you from the inside out. No, he's going to want to tell you that he thinks men and women should be treated equally. And as women, I guess we're supposed to take this as some kind of compliment by proxy, like wow, you actually think we're human? You believe women deserve equality* with men? What's next, you're going to tell me you think I should have the right to safely and legally terminate an unwanted pregnancy? Thank you so much. You can always tell when dudes want cookies, too, because they'll throw a "but I'm on your side!" hissy fit if you dare to mention that you don't like it when dudes call themselves feminists. Talk about a bellwether.

To that end, I'm much more ~~impressed by~~ grateful for men who treat women like human beings in their daily lives (and accept that they benefit from patriarchy on a class level, if not necessarily on an individual level) without feeling the need to label themselves as explicitly feminist for doing so. Because forget about the dictionary: If "women are people" is the only belief you need to hold to earn the title of "feminist," FML. Reasonable minds can certainly disagree on whether men referring to themselves as feminists serves a purpose in terms of destigmatizing the label itself -- it certainly does have the power to do this, because as in so many other arenas, it doesn't really count when a woman does it, but the possibility of making an impact is immediately introduced as soon as a man deigns to back her up. It's just deeply unsettling to me whenever I see anyone lauded for a belief that we really need to consider standard-issue as part of the "basic humanity" package.

* I am stridently anti-equality and feverishly pro-liberation, which is a tough pill for a lot of so-called "feminist" dudes to swallow.
posted by divined by radio at 9:48 AM on August 29, 2015 [32 favorites]

"The filter works the other way too. People who market their political affiliations on social media are often tiresome in person. So the misogynistic fools tried to pick a fight. Probably a bunch of decent enough guys just swiped left because they thought such a fight was likely, even if they weren't trying to start it.

If I'm looking for a romantic partner or even hookup, I'm more interested in the person's aesthetics, pastimes, sense of humor, and yes, physical appearance than I am in their political views. If they wear those views on their sleeve, like I can't get to know them until they're announced, I'm not interested."

This is such a deeply weird comment that I wonder if you actually read the article or any of the comments here.

First off, "feminist" is a political stance by necessity of living in a patriarchy, not a political affiliation like Democrat or Republican. Second off, a person's aesthetics and pastimes are also political — maybe you've heard "the personal is the political"?

Third, the notion that this is somehow limiting women from getting "decent enough" guys because those guys want to "avoid a fight" is bullshit. First off, for a lot of women, being "decent enough" includes either being explicitly feminist or not being threatened by a woman who is explicitly feminist. Saying that they're missing out on "decent enough" guys is like saying that someone with a "No floorshitters" line is missing out on all the great dudes who are pretty OK except they happen to blithely shit in the middle of the living room floor. Second off, the idea that "feminist" means that they're going to fight with you over something you say means that you're probably expecting to just be able to drop some sexist shit on them without having any consequences. That's not "decent enough," that's "I expect to maintain the patriarchal privilege to which I am accustomed." If you're a 'regular guy' who is just oh so tired of these fights over feminism, you're probably part of the problem — in which case, putting "I'm a feminist" in the profile worked!

And as far as the implication that you wouldn't date these women, who cares? You're not entitled to date them; they don't want to date you — whether or not you want to date them is entirely irrelevant, and bizarrely self-centered to fixate on. Which, you know, is one of those things that seems a reasonable proxy: Only considering the interests of women so far as they relate to their interest in you is one of the things that "I'm a feminist" would hopefully help screen for.

Tl;dr: The extent to which you're missing out is your problem; the extent that women with "I'm a feminist" in their profile are missing out is not at all.
posted by klangklangston at 10:51 AM on August 29, 2015 [27 favorites]

I haven't the foggiest idea what our society can do about them. It seems like we all just have to suffer their presence. It sucks.

At the risk of sounding snarky, one option for what to do about that is linked in the fpp as the subject of this thread.
posted by eviemath at 10:58 AM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

klangklangston: "Saying that they're missing out on "decent enough" guys is like saying that someone with a "No floorshitters" line is missing out on all the great dudes who are pretty OK except they happen to blithely shit in the middle of the living room floor. "

Ah, but you're ignoring all the guys who don't shit on the floor but are going to be put off by a strident anti-floor-shitting stance.
posted by RobotHero at 1:42 PM on August 29, 2015 [18 favorites]

I just think "anti-floorshitter" is too political is all
posted by kagredon at 9:54 PM on August 29, 2015 [12 favorites]

It's really about ethics in elimination locations.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:17 AM on August 30, 2015 [15 favorites]

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