Temple of Bel: 32 AD - 2015 AD
September 2, 2015 1:46 PM Subscribe
The UN has confirmed, through satellite imagery, that militants of the Islamic State (IS/ISIS/ISIL) have destroyed the Temple of Bel, one of the most iconic structures in the ancient city of Palmyra.
IS is waging an ongoing campaign of destruction of ancient sites across the territory it controls.
Palmyra’s Temple of Bel withstood 2,000 years of war and invasions — until the Islamic State
The streak of doubt that underlies ISIS' destructive acts of religious fervor
Why IS militants destroy ancient sites
Palmyra previously
IS is waging an ongoing campaign of destruction of ancient sites across the territory it controls.
Palmyra’s Temple of Bel withstood 2,000 years of war and invasions — until the Islamic State
The streak of doubt that underlies ISIS' destructive acts of religious fervor
Why IS militants destroy ancient sites
Palmyra previously
.
posted by triage_lazarus at 1:54 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by triage_lazarus at 1:54 PM on September 2, 2015
Imagine a world where Westboro Baptist Church had an army, and explosives.
We live in that world.
posted by Avenger at 1:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [38 favorites]
We live in that world.
posted by Avenger at 1:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [38 favorites]
We made that world.
posted by fullerine at 1:59 PM on September 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 1:59 PM on September 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
Yes. Since I learned about this I've been alternately upset about the destruction of the temple, and upset with myself for caring about the destruction of (even irreplaceable, priceless, historic) buildings and artifacts when the things they are doing to living people are even worse. In both cases I am consistently upset about ISIS/ISIL and every monstrous aspect of their ideology.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [32 favorites]
.
...
I regret my impotent anger has little to no viable outlet.
posted by Conway at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
...
I regret my impotent anger has little to no viable outlet.
posted by Conway at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust.
rip, civilized world.
posted by Dashy at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015
rip, civilized world.
posted by Dashy at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015
Why IS militants destroy ancient sites
because they're huge shitty douchebags, just like every fucking religious fanatic that ever existed in the history of the human race.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [42 favorites]
because they're huge shitty douchebags, just like every fucking religious fanatic that ever existed in the history of the human race.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [42 favorites]
There is no solution that we (the US) can have a part of. We grieve, and it's all we can do, all we should allow ourselves to do. We are too clumsy, and don't understand the region or the culture, and this is the price we have to pay for what was done in our names.
There is no intervention, there is no aid package, there is no arms deal, there are no trainers or support, there is no intelligence coverage, there is no sanction or incentive that we can offer that will get us the outcome we want.
It has to come from within the culture, and we are not part of the culture.
posted by turntraitor at 2:03 PM on September 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
There is no intervention, there is no aid package, there is no arms deal, there are no trainers or support, there is no intelligence coverage, there is no sanction or incentive that we can offer that will get us the outcome we want.
It has to come from within the culture, and we are not part of the culture.
posted by turntraitor at 2:03 PM on September 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
Teju Cole: Room 406
Archaeologists Respond To The Murder of Khaled al-Asaad At Ancient Palmyra
The last Americans in Palmyra
Why the Islamic State’s annihilation of ancient cultures matters
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
The destruction of a ruin is like the desecration of a body. It is a vengeance wreaked on the past in order to embitter the future. And how often it is that those who destroy ruins are the same ones who desecrate bodies.The Senseless Death of Mr. Palmyra
Archaeologists Respond To The Murder of Khaled al-Asaad At Ancient Palmyra
The last Americans in Palmyra
Why the Islamic State’s annihilation of ancient cultures matters
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Years from now - living in whatever climate change catastrophe of a world remains, of course - surviving ISIS foot soldiers will look back and not recognize themselves as the people who did this stuff. It probably feels ecstatic now, but that will fade. I'm sure it makes so much sense now - of course statues are idols, of course we have to level ancient temples - and someday it will be as incomprehensible as something you did while you were blackout drunk. To me the parallels are with the Khmer Rouge.
(When I lived in Shanghai, there wasn't much old stuff left since so much was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. ISIS is obviously much worse - although you have to wonder whether the total body count of the CR wasn't greater. It was weird to realize that all around were people who had been alive during the CR, and probably plenty of them had participated, one way or another. I met lots of people in their forties, which at the time would have meant that they would have been Red Guard age. I didn't meet terrible people, as far as I could tell. I try to think about how humans get caught up in this stuff, how to understand free will and culpability and I just feel like it's a big blank. A big blank universe without any moral order or any explanation for how people can be.)
posted by Frowner at 2:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
(When I lived in Shanghai, there wasn't much old stuff left since so much was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. ISIS is obviously much worse - although you have to wonder whether the total body count of the CR wasn't greater. It was weird to realize that all around were people who had been alive during the CR, and probably plenty of them had participated, one way or another. I met lots of people in their forties, which at the time would have meant that they would have been Red Guard age. I didn't meet terrible people, as far as I could tell. I try to think about how humans get caught up in this stuff, how to understand free will and culpability and I just feel like it's a big blank. A big blank universe without any moral order or any explanation for how people can be.)
posted by Frowner at 2:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
If they were sure of their faith--if their tenets were self-evident--they wouldn't need to do this.
That they feel the need to do this lays bare their writ-large impotence.
Or they're nihilists, which is it's own form of doubt.
Either way they're hypocrites of the highest order.
posted by notsnot at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
That they feel the need to do this lays bare their writ-large impotence.
Or they're nihilists, which is it's own form of doubt.
Either way they're hypocrites of the highest order.
posted by notsnot at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
To think of structures that have lasted millennia, to imagine all the ages they've endured, and to see them so thoroughly obliterated breaks my heart. So much history, gone in the blink of an eye.
posted by Kitteh at 2:13 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 2:13 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
"The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it."
This isn't done for any religious reason, or any cultural reason. People arguably much more religiously inclined left these ruins untouched and at times protected, through the last millennium or so.
This is to show power in ways people will notice. I identify with the comment above about how I feel bad for feeling so bad about this, when people are being murdered and sold into slavery every day by the same people, but still. The definition of impotent rage is to read stories of our shared humanity destroyed just so some asshole can show off his power.
posted by cell divide at 2:15 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
This isn't done for any religious reason, or any cultural reason. People arguably much more religiously inclined left these ruins untouched and at times protected, through the last millennium or so.
This is to show power in ways people will notice. I identify with the comment above about how I feel bad for feeling so bad about this, when people are being murdered and sold into slavery every day by the same people, but still. The definition of impotent rage is to read stories of our shared humanity destroyed just so some asshole can show off his power.
posted by cell divide at 2:15 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Everybody deciding that this makes no sense, that they're hypocrites, that they're going to regret this in their old age, etc is just exemplifying one thing I said in my previous post:
We are too clumsy, and don't understand the region or the culture
This makes sense to them, and they are not some insignificant minority.
Until you can say "Yes, I understand why they would do that," you're just posting from the same worldview that got us into this mess, to one degree or another.
This is what the Middle East figuring this shit out for itself looks like. It won't be pretty, and it will go on for a long time. I'm just thankful I don't have to live through it personally.
The only thing I can say is that I don't understand it, but I'm sure they do, and that makes them better qualified to know what the hell it means that they did it.
posted by turntraitor at 2:17 PM on September 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
We are too clumsy, and don't understand the region or the culture
This makes sense to them, and they are not some insignificant minority.
Until you can say "Yes, I understand why they would do that," you're just posting from the same worldview that got us into this mess, to one degree or another.
This is what the Middle East figuring this shit out for itself looks like. It won't be pretty, and it will go on for a long time. I'm just thankful I don't have to live through it personally.
The only thing I can say is that I don't understand it, but I'm sure they do, and that makes them better qualified to know what the hell it means that they did it.
posted by turntraitor at 2:17 PM on September 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
The architecture of Palmyra is a fusion of eastern and western styles. That merging of cultures is what made Palmyra such a success. That these fucknuts don't understand that is why they will be such failures.
posted by adept256 at 2:21 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by adept256 at 2:21 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I read a comment elsewhere that highlighted the fact that this exact city had been conquered by plenty of famous/legendary Islamic peoples who all decided to leave the ruins unmolested. Obviously ISIS has a pretty stupid interpretation of Koran, but they are even ignoring their own history!
posted by rosswald at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by rosswald at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2015
If you can't touch the Americans in the sky and the Kurds keep thrashing you on the ground, really all thats left to do is crucify civilians, execute your soldiers, burn pows alive, and blow up historical monuments.
posted by ethansr at 2:25 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ethansr at 2:25 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
For the most part, the men who make up ISIS are the same as angry young men all over the world. Destroying the antiquities in their region is not that different from angry young men in the west who torch the businesses that serve their communities or angry high school kids who vandalize and trash the schools where they spend most of their time. The main difference is that they have leaders directing and encouraging their anger and violence and giving them the tools to be more horribly destructive. Obviously religious fanaticism is a factor, but I don't believe for a second that it's as big a factor as a bunch of potential bullies being told that bullying is a good and noble thing and that they should bully more, not less.
posted by Dojie at 2:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Dojie at 2:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
I can't agree with that Dojie, and the fact that their destructiveness is remarkable in world historical terms suggests that there's more at play here than the ordinary anger of young men. That part of Syria has been conquered, and conquered again, probably dozens of times since that temple was built.
Yes, ISIS/ISIL are not some completely unique phenomenon, but they're far from ordinary.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes, ISIS/ISIL are not some completely unique phenomenon, but they're far from ordinary.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I do like how Pat Robertson likes to make a distinction between ancient art of gods and of kings.
I mean, c'mon people hello wake up.
posted by alex_skazat at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015
I mean, c'mon people hello wake up.
posted by alex_skazat at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015
Tangentially, this is going to kibosh any talk of repatriating artifacts taken from the region (or indeed, probably any region of the Middle East) because no curator will want to be the one who returned $ARTIFACT to it's origin only to have it blown to bits.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:40 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:40 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
FUCK
posted by supermedusa at 2:43 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by supermedusa at 2:43 PM on September 2, 2015
from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust.
rip, civilized world.
Look, I loathe ISIS as much as the next sane person, but the civilized world has bigger problems. ISIS is a symptom of a symptom, they're not going to destroy "the civilized world". In fact, as more than a few people in this thread have pointed out, their inability to carry their ideology beyond the narrow compass of their present borders is probably a big incentive to demonstrate power within their borders with stuff like this.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:45 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
rip, civilized world.
Look, I loathe ISIS as much as the next sane person, but the civilized world has bigger problems. ISIS is a symptom of a symptom, they're not going to destroy "the civilized world". In fact, as more than a few people in this thread have pointed out, their inability to carry their ideology beyond the narrow compass of their present borders is probably a big incentive to demonstrate power within their borders with stuff like this.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:45 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also worth noting that they can't sell the temple on the black market, which is what they do with artifacts that they can smuggle. Can't smuggle a temple, so blow it up for a stunt. The religious reasons given are horseshit.
posted by adept256 at 2:46 PM on September 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 2:46 PM on September 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
This honestly upsets me more than what they do to people. Why? I'm gonna talk it out and see if this helps.
- One, the immediacy. It just happened. It's fresh. I know of IS as an "ongoing horror", but I've known that for a long time. I just found out they destroyed this temple.
- Second, the discreteness of it. It's a concrete, definable, relatable thing they destroyed, not an abstraction like "2,000 men murdered". What men? Where? Are they on Wikipedia? No. This is. I've heard of this.
- Third, it's wanton. In my heart of hearts, I have had moments where i had the fleeting thought that all [group of people I dislike, like IS] should die. There's a part of me that believes the world would be better off without them. I suppress that reaction. I know it's fleeting, like wanting to punch someone who insults me. I don't do that, I know it's a gut reaction, and I let it pass, I know mass murder never helps things. But somehow it helps me understand that since I've had it, others must too, and there must be ways to amplify and manipulate it such that IS can find soldiers willing to carry out mass murder in much the same way that Nazi armies or the Japanese in China or the US in Vietnam did, and at least that little bit of empathy I have for these people when they commit these horrible acts against other humans makes me know that any campaign to eradicate IS through mass murder is a bad idea. As loath as I am to do it, I can extend them that little bit of forgiveness for violence against humans. Not much, but it's there.
But a friggin' temple to a long-dead moon god? An artifact that, today, stands for little more than scholarly interest in the past and wonderment at what man can accomplish? A monument to the purest, most human, most universal beauty we can all aspire to, an awe-inspiring relic of a dead empire? Just a cool thing that's there that makes the world a little bit better place, with no political cost, no ideological cost, nothing, it's just there, like the Himalayas and the beaches of Bali and the Antarctic, thanks ancient Syrians. THIS is the thing IS has a special squad to destroy?!?!?!?!
This goes beyond hate, goes beyond calculated terror, goes beyond what anything but the most cruel, nihilistic, vile mind could conceive of. I understand random vandalism. I understand the Cultural Revolution. I understand the perverse violence in Rwanda and Liberia. I never would, of course, but my mind can twist itself around the logic. But this? This isn't about victory, it's about the targeted, systemic destruction of human life, history, and continuity itself. Mohammed didn't go around pissing on the graves of his enemies. You call this a Caliphate? There is no good reason except the creation of sheer existential terror and profaning even the most basic joys humans experience.
What can we in the US (or elsewhere, in my case) do about this? Nothing without an army to command. I know there are mercenaries and volunteer corps, but I don't have the training or money to help even if I wasn't deterred by how little acting alone would contribute.
But I can point and speak. I can call it what it is. I can add my voice to the people saying, "IS, you are the true enemies of humanity, you are enemies of God, you are the Dark One's scourge, you would create nothing but Mordor, and if I ever find a way to effectively destroy your power and organization, I will, because you are evil incarnate."
There. Talking about it does help.
posted by saysthis at 2:50 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
- One, the immediacy. It just happened. It's fresh. I know of IS as an "ongoing horror", but I've known that for a long time. I just found out they destroyed this temple.
- Second, the discreteness of it. It's a concrete, definable, relatable thing they destroyed, not an abstraction like "2,000 men murdered". What men? Where? Are they on Wikipedia? No. This is. I've heard of this.
- Third, it's wanton. In my heart of hearts, I have had moments where i had the fleeting thought that all [group of people I dislike, like IS] should die. There's a part of me that believes the world would be better off without them. I suppress that reaction. I know it's fleeting, like wanting to punch someone who insults me. I don't do that, I know it's a gut reaction, and I let it pass, I know mass murder never helps things. But somehow it helps me understand that since I've had it, others must too, and there must be ways to amplify and manipulate it such that IS can find soldiers willing to carry out mass murder in much the same way that Nazi armies or the Japanese in China or the US in Vietnam did, and at least that little bit of empathy I have for these people when they commit these horrible acts against other humans makes me know that any campaign to eradicate IS through mass murder is a bad idea. As loath as I am to do it, I can extend them that little bit of forgiveness for violence against humans. Not much, but it's there.
But a friggin' temple to a long-dead moon god? An artifact that, today, stands for little more than scholarly interest in the past and wonderment at what man can accomplish? A monument to the purest, most human, most universal beauty we can all aspire to, an awe-inspiring relic of a dead empire? Just a cool thing that's there that makes the world a little bit better place, with no political cost, no ideological cost, nothing, it's just there, like the Himalayas and the beaches of Bali and the Antarctic, thanks ancient Syrians. THIS is the thing IS has a special squad to destroy?!?!?!?!
This goes beyond hate, goes beyond calculated terror, goes beyond what anything but the most cruel, nihilistic, vile mind could conceive of. I understand random vandalism. I understand the Cultural Revolution. I understand the perverse violence in Rwanda and Liberia. I never would, of course, but my mind can twist itself around the logic. But this? This isn't about victory, it's about the targeted, systemic destruction of human life, history, and continuity itself. Mohammed didn't go around pissing on the graves of his enemies. You call this a Caliphate? There is no good reason except the creation of sheer existential terror and profaning even the most basic joys humans experience.
What can we in the US (or elsewhere, in my case) do about this? Nothing without an army to command. I know there are mercenaries and volunteer corps, but I don't have the training or money to help even if I wasn't deterred by how little acting alone would contribute.
But I can point and speak. I can call it what it is. I can add my voice to the people saying, "IS, you are the true enemies of humanity, you are enemies of God, you are the Dark One's scourge, you would create nothing but Mordor, and if I ever find a way to effectively destroy your power and organization, I will, because you are evil incarnate."
There. Talking about it does help.
posted by saysthis at 2:50 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
I am not in any way defending these barbaric acts, but...
If these artifacts are off limits, if these ancient stones are somehow sacrosanct, then aren't people, in fact, idolizing them in a way?
I'm terribly sad to see such beautiful history erased, but by losing our shit over a bunch of old rocks and simply sighing disappointedly over the incomprehensible loss of life, I think we're playing right into their hands.
Art is not sacred, no matter how old it is.
posted by johnnyace at 2:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
If these artifacts are off limits, if these ancient stones are somehow sacrosanct, then aren't people, in fact, idolizing them in a way?
I'm terribly sad to see such beautiful history erased, but by losing our shit over a bunch of old rocks and simply sighing disappointedly over the incomprehensible loss of life, I think we're playing right into their hands.
Art is not sacred, no matter how old it is.
posted by johnnyace at 2:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Part of me wonders if this isn't a way of trying to goose the black market for their looted antiquities. Fuckos.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be fair, this is how the Vandals made their name.
posted by klangklangston at 3:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 3:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
johnnyace, no. I can not and will not agree to that. The sites that IS is destroying are part of the shared cultural legacy of humanity. These are things they did not build, and can not replace. No future generations will get to marvel at what ancient humans accomplished in Palmyra because of IS' senseless rage at their own dead pagan ancestors. And they are not just trying to blot out the cultural legacy of the ancient world. Music, sculpture, painting, literature, the arts of today's Middle East are also being murdered, and their creators with them.
posted by 1adam12 at 3:09 PM on September 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 3:09 PM on September 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
When an ancient pile of stones threatens your beliefs, your beliefs are probably pretty stupid.
posted by doctor_negative at 3:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by doctor_negative at 3:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
I've heard speculation that the reason they're hanging around in Palmyra in the first place is that they know that the US will be extremely reluctant to bomb them there. I guess they have to keep blowing up stuff to remind everyone that they're still around and willing to do horrible stuff to who and whatever is around them, but if they keep at it they might find that reluctance to bomb a field of rubble is much less than it would be to bomb a still-standing UNESCO World Heritage site.
posted by Copronymus at 3:15 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 3:15 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
upset with myself for caring about the destruction of (even irreplaceable, priceless, historic) buildings and artifacts when the things they are doing to living people are even worse.
It's actually okay to be upset with both.
BTW I trust everyone is aware of some of the things we've done in Iraq, right? A small example:
It's actually okay to be upset with both.
BTW I trust everyone is aware of some of the things we've done in Iraq, right? A small example:
"Hussaini confirmed a report two years ago by John Curtis, of the British Museum, on America's conversion of Nebuchadnezzar's great city of Babylon into the hanging gardens of Halliburton. This meant a 150-hectare camp for 2,000 troops. In the process the 2,500-year-old brick pavement to the Ishtar Gate was smashed by tanks and the gate itself damaged. The archaeology-rich subsoil was bulldozed to fill sandbags, and large areas covered in compacted gravel for helipads and car parks. Babylon is being rendered archaeologically barren.posted by George_Spiggott at 3:18 PM on September 2, 2015 [54 favorites]
Meanwhile the courtyard of the 10th-century caravanserai of Khan al-Raba was used by the Americans for exploding captured insurgent weapons. One blast demolished the ancient roofs and felled many of the walls. The place is now a ruin."
here's a 360 degree streetview style thing of the site
also I don't think anyone is actually "simply sighing disappointedly" over the killing, but it's not like ISIS is giving anyone a choice here like "we blow up these ruins OR we keep killing people," it feels pretty presumptive to pass judgement on where "our" priorities lie.
posted by juv3nal at 3:22 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
also I don't think anyone is actually "simply sighing disappointedly" over the killing, but it's not like ISIS is giving anyone a choice here like "we blow up these ruins OR we keep killing people," it feels pretty presumptive to pass judgement on where "our" priorities lie.
posted by juv3nal at 3:22 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am not in any way defending these barbaric acts, but...
If these artifacts are off limits, if these ancient stones are somehow sacrosanct, then aren't people, in fact, idolizing them in a way?
I'm terribly sad to see such beautiful history erased, but by losing our shit over a bunch of old rocks and simply sighing disappointedly over the incomprehensible loss of life, I think we're playing right into their hands.
Art is not sacred, no matter how old it is.
posted by johnnyace at 6:56 AM on September 3 [+] [!]
This whole issue has my gander up, but I promise I'm only going to argue with this a little. :)
If we take your logic to its extreme, then you can point the finger right back at the extreme Salafism of IS and call that idolatry as well, seeing as they're taking time out of their day to bulldoze and blow up some old rocks in the middle of a multi-front free-for-all war. Kinda pointless, and if you ask me, exemplary of the kind of excess idolatry prohibitions are meant to prevent. And I'm sure, if our Islamic theology were up to the task, we could have a very productive debate over what is and is not idolatry...in fact that's far enough from my own experience that I think it would be fun (and quite a derail unless an expert wants to jump in and make an epic once-and-for-all comment).
But what about the simple fact that people will create art, and disagree? And just like we mourn when people are silenced for the simple act of expression, or are murdered senselessly, we also ought to mourn at the (to me at least) even more senseless destruction of sites like this.
If they wanted us horrified, they got it. We play into their hands by flying into a blind rage. We destroy them by focusing our horror and protesting loudly enough that the perpetrators and sympathizers to these acts change their minds, and that the dissuaded and disinterested among those of us not directly affected remember, pay attention, and work to take away their ability to do this again or find new recruits.
EDITED: grammar patchup. I shouldn't type when I'm grr.
posted by saysthis at 3:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
If these artifacts are off limits, if these ancient stones are somehow sacrosanct, then aren't people, in fact, idolizing them in a way?
I'm terribly sad to see such beautiful history erased, but by losing our shit over a bunch of old rocks and simply sighing disappointedly over the incomprehensible loss of life, I think we're playing right into their hands.
Art is not sacred, no matter how old it is.
posted by johnnyace at 6:56 AM on September 3 [+] [!]
This whole issue has my gander up, but I promise I'm only going to argue with this a little. :)
If we take your logic to its extreme, then you can point the finger right back at the extreme Salafism of IS and call that idolatry as well, seeing as they're taking time out of their day to bulldoze and blow up some old rocks in the middle of a multi-front free-for-all war. Kinda pointless, and if you ask me, exemplary of the kind of excess idolatry prohibitions are meant to prevent. And I'm sure, if our Islamic theology were up to the task, we could have a very productive debate over what is and is not idolatry...in fact that's far enough from my own experience that I think it would be fun (and quite a derail unless an expert wants to jump in and make an epic once-and-for-all comment).
But what about the simple fact that people will create art, and disagree? And just like we mourn when people are silenced for the simple act of expression, or are murdered senselessly, we also ought to mourn at the (to me at least) even more senseless destruction of sites like this.
If they wanted us horrified, they got it. We play into their hands by flying into a blind rage. We destroy them by focusing our horror and protesting loudly enough that the perpetrators and sympathizers to these acts change their minds, and that the dissuaded and disinterested among those of us not directly affected remember, pay attention, and work to take away their ability to do this again or find new recruits.
EDITED: grammar patchup. I shouldn't type when I'm grr.
posted by saysthis at 3:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Imagine a world where Westboro Baptist Church had an army, and explosives.
The comparison is absurd and pointless. WBC has, I read, about forty members and as far as I can find, no interest in destruction of antiquities, and has not been charged with killing anyone. Their funding is said to be self contained.
ISIL has tens if not hundreds of thousands of active participants, sympathizers, and funders, and well documented trail of blood on its hands, on top of cultural destruction.
I think we're playing right into their hands.
How so? I'm not hearing a lot of people signing up to get ISIL for this kind of stuff. I have read about people volunteer because they're outraged at what the crew is doing to local folk.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:29 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The comparison is absurd and pointless. WBC has, I read, about forty members and as far as I can find, no interest in destruction of antiquities, and has not been charged with killing anyone. Their funding is said to be self contained.
ISIL has tens if not hundreds of thousands of active participants, sympathizers, and funders, and well documented trail of blood on its hands, on top of cultural destruction.
I think we're playing right into their hands.
How so? I'm not hearing a lot of people signing up to get ISIL for this kind of stuff. I have read about people volunteer because they're outraged at what the crew is doing to local folk.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:29 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
ISIS has taken to hanging people over low coals to slow-cook to death. I can't get more worked-up about an old temple than actual fellow humans.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:32 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 3:32 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fuck those fucking fuckers.
posted by Chuffy at 3:35 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 3:35 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
But a friggin' temple to a long-dead moon god?
Be careful with that kind of loose talk.
posted by delfin at 3:35 PM on September 2, 2015
Be careful with that kind of loose talk.
posted by delfin at 3:35 PM on September 2, 2015
This is more about drumming up enthusiasm by asserting license.
"Look we did this thing that you wouldn't think anyone was allowed to do, but we are!"
"Come join us and do things that people you hate think you shouldn't do! (or at least send money!)"
posted by ethansr at 3:39 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Look we did this thing that you wouldn't think anyone was allowed to do, but we are!"
"Come join us and do things that people you hate think you shouldn't do! (or at least send money!)"
posted by ethansr at 3:39 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm in favor of killing these people where and when we can do so without increasing the misery of the civilian populations around them. Which may be never, in a honest appraisal of the situation and recent history.
Still, the whole world would be better off with ISIS scattered and it's leaders vaporized. Sorry, not sorry.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:40 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Still, the whole world would be better off with ISIS scattered and it's leaders vaporized. Sorry, not sorry.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:40 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Had Palmyra fallen under the sovereignty of our own allies, the honorary freedom-loving democrats of the House of Saud, would it have survived any longer?
posted by acb at 3:41 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by acb at 3:41 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Go on. Tell us more about how ISIS is not that different from people frustrated at the way their hands are tied regarding their own race's well being.
I know you were being sarcastic, but I think this comment is more right than you might realize.
posted by chimaera at 3:42 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I know you were being sarcastic, but I think this comment is more right than you might realize.
posted by chimaera at 3:42 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sure we can all agree that ISIS are uniquely and immanently evil, and their actions qua pointless destruction of non-military objects fail to relate in anyway to the firebombing of Dresden or, more recently the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad.
posted by MetalFingerz at 3:43 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by MetalFingerz at 3:43 PM on September 2, 2015
Caring is not a zero sum game. I don't think anyone who's upset about this is rationing their despair and choosing to dedicate more of it to ruins than to people. If there's one thing I've learned it's that your well of despair and impotent rage is just as deep as the well of atrocities humans are capable of.
posted by telegraph at 3:44 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by telegraph at 3:44 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
'Shock and awe' never actually happened. Dubya's people couldn't get the basing and overflight permissions.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:45 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:45 PM on September 2, 2015
Destroying the antiquities in their region is not that different from angry young men in the west who torch the businesses that serve their communities
Go on. Tell us more about how ISIS is not that different from people frustrated at the way their hands are tied regarding their own race's well being.
Way to ignore my point and hint that I'm just being racist. It's not just black people in American that have rioted and damaged their own communities and harmed the other people in their communities. It's happened in a lot of places and times and across color lines. Most protesters or disappointed sports fans or union activists don't burn down the corner grocery or trash their neighbors' property or beat up bystanders, but there's a segment of the population that may or may not care about the root cause, but mostly just wants to smash stuff and hurt people. Most of the time those people aren't given heavy weaponry and training and propaganda telling them that God will reward them for smashing stuff and hurting people. ISIS is not the only group doing this in the world right now - it's just the one in the news.
posted by Dojie at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Go on. Tell us more about how ISIS is not that different from people frustrated at the way their hands are tied regarding their own race's well being.
Way to ignore my point and hint that I'm just being racist. It's not just black people in American that have rioted and damaged their own communities and harmed the other people in their communities. It's happened in a lot of places and times and across color lines. Most protesters or disappointed sports fans or union activists don't burn down the corner grocery or trash their neighbors' property or beat up bystanders, but there's a segment of the population that may or may not care about the root cause, but mostly just wants to smash stuff and hurt people. Most of the time those people aren't given heavy weaponry and training and propaganda telling them that God will reward them for smashing stuff and hurting people. ISIS is not the only group doing this in the world right now - it's just the one in the news.
posted by Dojie at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is to show power in ways people will notice. I identify with the comment above about how I feel bad for feeling so bad about this, when people are being murdered and sold into slavery every day by the same people, but still. The definition of impotent rage is to read stories of our shared humanity destroyed just so some asshole can show off his power.
I feel the same way about people who deny climate change and/or do things like drive huge SUV's around by themselves, or those douchebags who "roll coal." Our planet is dying en masse, and there are a bunch of assholes contributing to it to show off their power.
posted by Chuffy at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I feel the same way about people who deny climate change and/or do things like drive huge SUV's around by themselves, or those douchebags who "roll coal." Our planet is dying en masse, and there are a bunch of assholes contributing to it to show off their power.
posted by Chuffy at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
But a friggin' temple to a long-dead moon god?
Be careful with that kind of loose talk.
posted by delfin at 7:35 AM on September 3 [+] [!]
I had forgotten that was a thing. Was referring to Aglibol & immediate relatives, oops.
posted by saysthis at 3:49 PM on September 2, 2015
Be careful with that kind of loose talk.
posted by delfin at 7:35 AM on September 3 [+] [!]
I had forgotten that was a thing. Was referring to Aglibol & immediate relatives, oops.
posted by saysthis at 3:49 PM on September 2, 2015
The fundamentalists in America would be just fine nuking Syria (and Iran, and most of the Middle East). What these ISIS fuckers did pales in comparison to something like that.
posted by Chuffy at 3:51 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Chuffy at 3:51 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone who's upset about this is rationing their despair and choosing to dedicate more of it to ruins than to people.
And yet, in this very thread...
This honestly upsets me more than what they do to people.
Our outraged tears are delicious sustenance, no doubt.
posted by johnnyace at 3:52 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And yet, in this very thread...
This honestly upsets me more than what they do to people.
Our outraged tears are delicious sustenance, no doubt.
posted by johnnyace at 3:52 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fundamentalists in America would be just fine nuking Syria (and Iran, and most of the Middle East). What these ISIS fuckers did pales in comparison to something like that.
posted by Chuffy at 6:51 PM on 9/2
[+] [!]
An actual destruction of something is not as bad as a hypothetical destruction of lots of things?
posted by holybagel at 3:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 6:51 PM on 9/2
[+] [!]
An actual destruction of something is not as bad as a hypothetical destruction of lots of things?
posted by holybagel at 3:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I hate the "so you're saying you care more about some old rocks than actual human people being murdered?" thing.
First of all, I don't think very many people are actually doing that. I'm bummed about this, but of course the torture and murder of innocent people is worse. If I was in some sort of horrible trolley problem where I had to blow up these temples to save Yazidis or whatever, I'd blow them up. I swear. Of course, that would never happen because it's not an actual choice.
Second of all, what would it matter even if it weren't the case? My personal ability to impact anything going in the Syrian Civil war is approximately zero. My government's military will probably keep bombing ISIS intermittently regardless (or, I guess, put boots on the ground if it gets bad enough and whoever is President is dumb enough to want to get involved in that way). I can be sadder about one horrible thing than the other horrible thing and the horrible things will keep happening whichever I one I pick to be saddest about. There are moral atrocities going on right now that I do have some ability to impact, but this is just not one of them, and, honestly, even trying to help on the front lines right now would probably just make everything worse. There is nothing I could do to save the human victims of ISIS and there is nothing I can do to save the heritage that they're destroying.
Mostly, I think there's sort of a man bites dog thing going on here. Horrible people commit brutal murders every day, but it's relatively rare in the last hundred years or so that anyone undertakes the conscious destruction of 2000 year old ruins. There are only a tiny handful of places like Palmyra left standing, and it's worth taking some notice when one of them is destroyed, especially for reasons most people find totally illegitimate.
posted by Copronymus at 3:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
First of all, I don't think very many people are actually doing that. I'm bummed about this, but of course the torture and murder of innocent people is worse. If I was in some sort of horrible trolley problem where I had to blow up these temples to save Yazidis or whatever, I'd blow them up. I swear. Of course, that would never happen because it's not an actual choice.
Second of all, what would it matter even if it weren't the case? My personal ability to impact anything going in the Syrian Civil war is approximately zero. My government's military will probably keep bombing ISIS intermittently regardless (or, I guess, put boots on the ground if it gets bad enough and whoever is President is dumb enough to want to get involved in that way). I can be sadder about one horrible thing than the other horrible thing and the horrible things will keep happening whichever I one I pick to be saddest about. There are moral atrocities going on right now that I do have some ability to impact, but this is just not one of them, and, honestly, even trying to help on the front lines right now would probably just make everything worse. There is nothing I could do to save the human victims of ISIS and there is nothing I can do to save the heritage that they're destroying.
Mostly, I think there's sort of a man bites dog thing going on here. Horrible people commit brutal murders every day, but it's relatively rare in the last hundred years or so that anyone undertakes the conscious destruction of 2000 year old ruins. There are only a tiny handful of places like Palmyra left standing, and it's worth taking some notice when one of them is destroyed, especially for reasons most people find totally illegitimate.
posted by Copronymus at 3:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
It has to come from within the culture, and we are not part of the culture.
This is a really weird statement to make. Cultural differences are superficial. We all want the same things for our kids. In the same vein, the culture of power is pretty much the same - the cunts who run the show in one place are pretty much the same as the cunts who run the show in another. ISIS and Mexico's Zetas for example, use pretty much the same tactics.
And, just like the Zetas, ISIS's power exists within the way the world current - and dysfunctionally - works. You have a couple of superpowers and hyperpowers trying to run the show and all that goes with it.
Who is ISIS selling its oil to? Where are the guns coming from? Where are ISIS's soldiers coming from? Why is Turkey attacking the Kurds?
While the people and governments in these regions obviously exercise agency, one has to wonder at the wisdom of encouraging the Arab Spring (although how could you not?) or "leading from behind" and bombing the shit out of Ghaddafi in Libya.
Or announcing a "red line" regarding the use of chemical weapons, and then ignoring the use of chemical weapons.
And of course the whole Iraq fiasco that precipitated this whole mess.
I do wonder about the political aim of destroying antiquities. I do not believe they are destroying relics and ruins out of religious fervor. It's a show, a method to communicate. But for the time-being ISIS is pretty-much safe in Syria and northwestern Iraq.
What are they trying to communicate I wonder? What's the PR angle?
posted by Nevin at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a really weird statement to make. Cultural differences are superficial. We all want the same things for our kids. In the same vein, the culture of power is pretty much the same - the cunts who run the show in one place are pretty much the same as the cunts who run the show in another. ISIS and Mexico's Zetas for example, use pretty much the same tactics.
And, just like the Zetas, ISIS's power exists within the way the world current - and dysfunctionally - works. You have a couple of superpowers and hyperpowers trying to run the show and all that goes with it.
Who is ISIS selling its oil to? Where are the guns coming from? Where are ISIS's soldiers coming from? Why is Turkey attacking the Kurds?
While the people and governments in these regions obviously exercise agency, one has to wonder at the wisdom of encouraging the Arab Spring (although how could you not?) or "leading from behind" and bombing the shit out of Ghaddafi in Libya.
Or announcing a "red line" regarding the use of chemical weapons, and then ignoring the use of chemical weapons.
And of course the whole Iraq fiasco that precipitated this whole mess.
I do wonder about the political aim of destroying antiquities. I do not believe they are destroying relics and ruins out of religious fervor. It's a show, a method to communicate. But for the time-being ISIS is pretty-much safe in Syria and northwestern Iraq.
What are they trying to communicate I wonder? What's the PR angle?
posted by Nevin at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Robert Fisk's report.
The longer the destruction lasts, Ms Farchakh believes, the higher go the prices on the international antiquities markets. Isis is in the antiquities business, is her message, and Isis is manipulating the world in its dramas of destruction. “There are no stories on the media without an ‘event’. First, Daesh gave the media blood. Then the media decided not to show any more blood. So it has given them archeology. When it doesn’t get this across, it will go for women, then for children.”posted by urbanwhaleshark at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
“Antiquities from Palmyra are already on sale in London,” the Lebanese-French archaeologist Ms Farchakh says. “There are Syrian and Iraqi objects taken by Isis that are already in Europe. They are no longer still in Turkey where they first went – they left Turkey long ago. This destruction hides the income of Daesh [Isis] and it is selling these things before it is destroying the temples that housed them."
Jesus. Who is selling these things in Europe? Who is buying them? These should be ready and available targets for Interpol to go after.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:02 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Jesus. Who is selling these things in Europe? Who is buying them? These should be ready and available targets for Interpol to go after.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:02 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mike Pitts, editor of British Archaeology, adds "Isis will one day be history. Palmyra will be its permanent lesson, about the darkness into which oppression, ignorance and corruption can sink.... Isis has chastised archaeologists for digging up the past. Yet it cannot stop that happening. And no amount of physical destruction can remove the knowledge of mixed cultures, creative thinking and love of beauty that bequeathed a desert ruin. In the face of heritage, at the end of the day Isis is powerless." (via)posted by argonauta at 4:03 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Telling people how they ought to feel, particularly in a judgmental way, is a form of trolling. It's about getting a reaction rather than contributing to the conversation. Your mom is allowed to do it; from anyone else I really wouldn't mind seeing a moderator step in. Today alone I've seen comments get deleted for vastly less cause.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:04 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:04 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is no solution that we (the US) can have a part of.
support the kurds? "The YPG/J are radical feminists, with women fighting on the front lines and even commanding whole fronts... The Kurds are trying very hard to change, to get out of the sectarian nightmare. So when Islamic State attacked those vulnerable Assyrian villages around the town of Tal Hamer, they fought for the Assyrians."
10,000 Icelanders offer to house Syrian refugees after author's call
The Look of Silence - "The Act of Killing exposed the consequences for all of us when we build our everyday reality on terror and lies. The Look of Silence explores what it is like to be a survivor in such a reality... The Look of Silence, is, I hope, a poem about a silence borne of terror – a poem about the necessity of breaking that silence, but also about the trauma that comes when silence is broken. Maybe the film is a monument to silence – a reminder that although we want to move on, look away and think of other things, nothing will make whole what has been broken. Nothing will wake the dead. We must stop, acknowledge the lives destroyed, strain to listen to the silence that follows."
posted by kliuless at 4:09 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
support the kurds? "The YPG/J are radical feminists, with women fighting on the front lines and even commanding whole fronts... The Kurds are trying very hard to change, to get out of the sectarian nightmare. So when Islamic State attacked those vulnerable Assyrian villages around the town of Tal Hamer, they fought for the Assyrians."
10,000 Icelanders offer to house Syrian refugees after author's call
Ten thousand Icelanders have offered to welcome Syrian refugees into their homes, as part of a Facebook campaign launched by a prominent author after the government said it would take in only a handful.re: the cultural revolution; also btw...
After the Icelandic government announced last month that it would only accept 50 humanitarian refugees from Syria, Bryndis Bjorgvinsdottir encouraged fellow citizens to speak out in favour of those in need of asylum. In the space of 24 hours, 10,000 Icelanders – the country’s population is 300,000 – took to Facebook to offer up their homes and urge their government to do more...
“I’m a single mother with a 6-year-old son… We can take a child in need. I’m a teacher and would teach the child to speak, read and write Icelandic and adjust to Icelandic society. We have clothes, a bed, toys and everything a child needs. I would of course pay for the airplane ticket,” wrote Hekla Stefansdottir in a post.
The Look of Silence - "The Act of Killing exposed the consequences for all of us when we build our everyday reality on terror and lies. The Look of Silence explores what it is like to be a survivor in such a reality... The Look of Silence, is, I hope, a poem about a silence borne of terror – a poem about the necessity of breaking that silence, but also about the trauma that comes when silence is broken. Maybe the film is a monument to silence – a reminder that although we want to move on, look away and think of other things, nothing will make whole what has been broken. Nothing will wake the dead. We must stop, acknowledge the lives destroyed, strain to listen to the silence that follows."
posted by kliuless at 4:09 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
As noted above, it's not like ISIL has a monopoly of destroying the remnants of ancient cultures for its own political and economic gains.
When an ancient pile of stones threatens yourbeliefs profits, your beliefs economic and political systems are probably pretty stupid.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:09 PM on September 2, 2015
When an ancient pile of stones threatens your
posted by infinitewindow at 4:09 PM on September 2, 2015
(re: acb's comment about our ally's track record)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:20 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:20 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
To me, the destruction of antiquities is so heartbreaking because it severs the already tenuous connection between our modern ears and eyes and a millennia's worth of our ancestors' voices, faces, and hands. Yes, these people are already dead, but in a way this slaughters them all again, by removing their physical traces from our planet. Thank god [or whatever] for the printing press.
I (admittedly, a person with little background on the history of the Middle East) thought this was a phenomenal piece about what drives ISIL, which leaves the reader with the strong impression that "We are missing something."
posted by sallybrown at 4:22 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
I (admittedly, a person with little background on the history of the Middle East) thought this was a phenomenal piece about what drives ISIL, which leaves the reader with the strong impression that "We are missing something."
Much of what ISIS has done clearly contradicts the moral intuitions and principles of many of its supporters. And we sense—through Hassan Hassan and Michael Weiss’s careful interviews—that its supporters are at least partially aware of this contradiction. Again, we can list the different external groups that have provided funding and support to ISIS. But there are no logical connections of ideology, identity, or interests that should link Iran, the Taliban, and the Baathists to one another or to ISIS. Rather, each case suggests that institutions that are starkly divided in theology, politics, and culture perpetually improvise lethal and even self-defeating partnerships of convenience.What are we missing?
The thinkers, tacticians, soldiers, and leaders of the movement we know as ISIS are not great strategists; their policies are often haphazard, reckless, even preposterous; regardless of whether their government is, as some argue, skillful, or as others imply, hapless, it is not delivering genuine economic growth or sustainable social justice. The theology, principles, and ethics of the ISIS leaders are neither robust nor defensible. Our analytical spade hits bedrock very fast.
I have often been tempted to argue that we simply need more and better information. But that is to underestimate the alien and bewildering nature of this phenomenon. To take only one example, five years ago not even the most austere Salafi theorists advocated the reintroduction of slavery; but ISIS has in fact imposed it. Nothing since the triumph of the Vandals in Roman North Africa has seemed so sudden, incomprehensible, and difficult to reverse as the rise of ISIS. None of our analysts, soldiers, diplomats, intelligence officers, politicians, or journalists has yet produced an explanation rich enough—even in hindsight—to have predicted the movement’s rise.
We hide this from ourselves with theories and concepts that do not bear deep examination. And we will not remedy this simply through the accumulation of more facts. It is not clear whether our culture can ever develop sufficient knowledge, rigor, imagination, and humility to grasp the phenomenon of ISIS. But for now, we should admit that we are not only horrified but baffled.
posted by sallybrown at 4:22 PM on September 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
An actual destruction of something is not as bad as a hypothetical destruction of lots of things?
posted by holybagel at 3:55 PM on September 2
Not my point, really. I guess what I'm saying is that I can imagine hypocrisy in this on the way...I assume some American fundamentalists will latch on to condemning this thing and then suggest we nuke the entire site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.
IIRC, American soldiers allowed museums in Baghdad to be looted, and I'm sure they destroyed ancient sites so we could bring freedom and liberty to them...
posted by Chuffy at 4:23 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by holybagel at 3:55 PM on September 2
Not my point, really. I guess what I'm saying is that I can imagine hypocrisy in this on the way...I assume some American fundamentalists will latch on to condemning this thing and then suggest we nuke the entire site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.
IIRC, American soldiers allowed museums in Baghdad to be looted, and I'm sure they destroyed ancient sites so we could bring freedom and liberty to them...
posted by Chuffy at 4:23 PM on September 2, 2015
I can't get more worked-up about an old temple than actual fellow humans.
It is perfectly reasonable to condemn the destruction of both.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
It is perfectly reasonable to condemn the destruction of both.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
What are we missing?
Good article.
1. Despite the US-led invasion of Iraq that year, the borders of Syria and Iraq were stable. Secular Arab nationalism appeared to have triumphed over the older forces of tribe and religion.
The US-led invasion of Iraq destroyed that country and destabilized its borders, perhaps on purpose. Secular Arab nationalism mostly amount(ed) to tin pot dictators propped up by one power or another. Tribe and religion have always been brimming under the surface (as they do in every country).
2. But there are no logical connections of ideology, identity, or interests that should link Iran, the Taliban, and the Baathists to one another or to ISIS.
Are we sure? How about opposition to foreign intermeddling?
3. Nothing since the triumph of the Vandals in Roman North Africa has seemed so sudden, incomprehensible, and difficult to reverse as the rise of ISIS.
No, the rise of a power like ISIS - a reactionary force filling in the power vacuum created by the exit of Middle-Eastern strongmen - is predictable and was actually predicted by a wide variety of people across the political spectrum.
4. it is not delivering genuine economic growth or sustainable social justice
Really now. Is "economic growth" an important value among fervently radical Muslims? Some people in the world are not willing to trade away their religion, culture, and sovereignty for the right to buy cheap iPods. Maybe this is something the author is missing or just doesn't understand.
How about social justice, as Western liberals conceive of it? Important to ISIS supporters? Seems unlikely. Or maybe they define it differently. Maybe among a non-significant chunk of them, chopping off some dude's hands for stealing a loaf of bread is "social justice."
We hide this from ourselves with theories and concepts that do not bear deep examination. And we will not remedy this simply through the accumulation of more facts. It is not clear whether our culture can ever develop sufficient knowledge, rigor, imagination, and humility to grasp the phenomenon of ISIS. But for now, we should admit that we are not only horrified but baffled.
Yeah kinda. In fact, ISIS resembles nothing so much as secular 20th century revolutionaries, but with a reactionary Islamic gloss. Right down to disappearing people from history - that's not a Muslim thing, they left old churches alone, as did the Europeans who kicked them out - that's a modern thing. The outright slaughter and historical "disappearing" of political enemies and their symbols, extremism, personality cult, etc etc it's all there. The beheading style is sort of unique to the region, Europeans preferred the guillotine to the sword. But ISIS isn't unrecognizable or incomprehensible at all, not from what I've seen.
posted by mrbigmuscles at 4:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Good article.
1. Despite the US-led invasion of Iraq that year, the borders of Syria and Iraq were stable. Secular Arab nationalism appeared to have triumphed over the older forces of tribe and religion.
The US-led invasion of Iraq destroyed that country and destabilized its borders, perhaps on purpose. Secular Arab nationalism mostly amount(ed) to tin pot dictators propped up by one power or another. Tribe and religion have always been brimming under the surface (as they do in every country).
2. But there are no logical connections of ideology, identity, or interests that should link Iran, the Taliban, and the Baathists to one another or to ISIS.
Are we sure? How about opposition to foreign intermeddling?
3. Nothing since the triumph of the Vandals in Roman North Africa has seemed so sudden, incomprehensible, and difficult to reverse as the rise of ISIS.
No, the rise of a power like ISIS - a reactionary force filling in the power vacuum created by the exit of Middle-Eastern strongmen - is predictable and was actually predicted by a wide variety of people across the political spectrum.
4. it is not delivering genuine economic growth or sustainable social justice
Really now. Is "economic growth" an important value among fervently radical Muslims? Some people in the world are not willing to trade away their religion, culture, and sovereignty for the right to buy cheap iPods. Maybe this is something the author is missing or just doesn't understand.
How about social justice, as Western liberals conceive of it? Important to ISIS supporters? Seems unlikely. Or maybe they define it differently. Maybe among a non-significant chunk of them, chopping off some dude's hands for stealing a loaf of bread is "social justice."
We hide this from ourselves with theories and concepts that do not bear deep examination. And we will not remedy this simply through the accumulation of more facts. It is not clear whether our culture can ever develop sufficient knowledge, rigor, imagination, and humility to grasp the phenomenon of ISIS. But for now, we should admit that we are not only horrified but baffled.
Yeah kinda. In fact, ISIS resembles nothing so much as secular 20th century revolutionaries, but with a reactionary Islamic gloss. Right down to disappearing people from history - that's not a Muslim thing, they left old churches alone, as did the Europeans who kicked them out - that's a modern thing. The outright slaughter and historical "disappearing" of political enemies and their symbols, extremism, personality cult, etc etc it's all there. The beheading style is sort of unique to the region, Europeans preferred the guillotine to the sword. But ISIS isn't unrecognizable or incomprehensible at all, not from what I've seen.
posted by mrbigmuscles at 4:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
What are we missing?
that people can be real jerks and if you let them get enough power, they can be godawful jerks - especially when they have a cause they fervently believe in
i'd suggest that the reason many of the ancient and medieval conquerers of palymra didn't do this is because it just takes too damned long to do it by hand and it wouldn't have made them any money, so it just wasn't that important
nowadays, munitions are plentiful and it does seem like a buck can be made out of what you take out before you blow everything sky high
there are probably people in the u s who would blow up the statue of liberty if they could just to watch shit blow up - and if they could sell the copper to buy meth with, it would be a done deal
this isn't the middle east sorting its shit out, it's just people living up to their jackass potentials - it's depressing and nothing new
posted by pyramid termite at 5:58 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
that people can be real jerks and if you let them get enough power, they can be godawful jerks - especially when they have a cause they fervently believe in
i'd suggest that the reason many of the ancient and medieval conquerers of palymra didn't do this is because it just takes too damned long to do it by hand and it wouldn't have made them any money, so it just wasn't that important
nowadays, munitions are plentiful and it does seem like a buck can be made out of what you take out before you blow everything sky high
there are probably people in the u s who would blow up the statue of liberty if they could just to watch shit blow up - and if they could sell the copper to buy meth with, it would be a done deal
this isn't the middle east sorting its shit out, it's just people living up to their jackass potentials - it's depressing and nothing new
posted by pyramid termite at 5:58 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Shame on me for bringing up the plight of humans on a BBS that has said dick-all about the human tragedy of ISIS for the past X months while it works itself into a lather about some goddamn rocks.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 6:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't see any need to choose between reasons to find ISIS appalling: either abominable penchant for intentionally maximizing human suffering or wantonly senseless disregard for revered antiquities (among other human achievements or knowledge) works well enough for me.
posted by weston at 6:27 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by weston at 6:27 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
1. Despite the US-led invasion of Iraq that year, the borders of Syria and Iraq were stable. Secular Arab nationalism appeared to have triumphed over the older forces of tribe and religion.
Were they? Saddam's tribe and other Sunni tribes were his political base. Assad as well with his Alawite co-religionists and long-standing ties with the Islamic Republic of Iran and Hezbollah which are strongly correlated with Shi'ite militancy.
posted by humanfont at 6:43 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Were they? Saddam's tribe and other Sunni tribes were his political base. Assad as well with his Alawite co-religionists and long-standing ties with the Islamic Republic of Iran and Hezbollah which are strongly correlated with Shi'ite militancy.
posted by humanfont at 6:43 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This isn't done for any religious reason, or any cultural reason. People arguably much more religiously inclined left these ruins untouched and at times protected, through the last millennium or so.
Those people had different beliefs, and different motives, and different resources and needs.
Iconoclasm is a recurring element of many religions; our own culture is not so very far removed from it (think of people defacing monuments or smashing banks' windows). Like a pilgrimage, or a fast, or other sacraments in other religions, it's "an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace."
Denying the reality of ISIS' expressed doctrine means that we cannot hope to understand what attracts people to it and keeps it going. It's not fear; it's not the sale of antiquities; to a large degree it's the thrill of justificatiion within a religion that eschews hypocrisy. This wasn't an act of fear or whatever: it was an act of devotional destruction, like ISIS's executions of "nonbelievers". The wreckers were demonstrating and enacting their adherence to their God by destroying the temple of His enemy. Recognising that is the first step to combating their ideology.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Those people had different beliefs, and different motives, and different resources and needs.
Iconoclasm is a recurring element of many religions; our own culture is not so very far removed from it (think of people defacing monuments or smashing banks' windows). Like a pilgrimage, or a fast, or other sacraments in other religions, it's "an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace."
Denying the reality of ISIS' expressed doctrine means that we cannot hope to understand what attracts people to it and keeps it going. It's not fear; it's not the sale of antiquities; to a large degree it's the thrill of justificatiion within a religion that eschews hypocrisy. This wasn't an act of fear or whatever: it was an act of devotional destruction, like ISIS's executions of "nonbelievers". The wreckers were demonstrating and enacting their adherence to their God by destroying the temple of His enemy. Recognising that is the first step to combating their ideology.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Shame on me for bringing up the plight of humans on a BBS that has said dick-all about the human tragedy of ISIS for the past X months while it works itself into a lather about some goddamn rocks.
Well, it's a big site and bits are cheap....but in all seriousness, I would be interested in reading a post on this topic.
These are more than "some goddamn rocks;" in addition to taking the lives of people under its control, IS is also erasing (and selling) their history.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:02 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, it's a big site and bits are cheap....but in all seriousness, I would be interested in reading a post on this topic.
These are more than "some goddamn rocks;" in addition to taking the lives of people under its control, IS is also erasing (and selling) their history.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:02 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Art is not sacred, no matter how old it is.
Huh? Art is the only thing that is sacred. I really can't understand a human being that doesn't have that in their bones.
What is sacred, then? Human life? We're born, we live, we die. Lockstep. Nothing stops that. Hardly characteristic of the "sacred". Political, social institutions, laws? Ephemeral. Transitory.
I can't go on (I mean, I could, Irish blather mouth with degrees, etc.) Only art encompasses what we think, feel, believe and hope for.
... not sacred??
Fer reals?
posted by Chitownfats at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Huh? Art is the only thing that is sacred. I really can't understand a human being that doesn't have that in their bones.
What is sacred, then? Human life? We're born, we live, we die. Lockstep. Nothing stops that. Hardly characteristic of the "sacred". Political, social institutions, laws? Ephemeral. Transitory.
I can't go on (I mean, I could, Irish blather mouth with degrees, etc.) Only art encompasses what we think, feel, believe and hope for.
... not sacred??
Fer reals?
posted by Chitownfats at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
"i'd suggest that the reason many of the ancient and medieval conquerers of palymra didn't do this is because it just takes too damned long to do it by hand and..."
Well, Aurelian didn't have high explosives but leveled Palmyra in 273. Oddly, the Temple of Bel was rebuilt and Aurelians' paranoid servant fabricated a fake death list, leaked it, and his men killed him.
Nothing new.
posted by clavdivs at 8:14 PM on September 2, 2015
Well, Aurelian didn't have high explosives but leveled Palmyra in 273. Oddly, the Temple of Bel was rebuilt and Aurelians' paranoid servant fabricated a fake death list, leaked it, and his men killed him.
Nothing new.
posted by clavdivs at 8:14 PM on September 2, 2015
Any word from the followers of Baal/Bel on this? Will the long slumbering assyrian god smite them?
posted by humanfont at 8:16 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 8:16 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
divination does not auger well.
posted by clavdivs at 8:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 8:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
This:
to a large degree it's the thrill of justificatiion within a religion that eschews hypocrisy.
In a word, righteousness. It's the same thing driving the loon in KY that won't do her job of issuing marriage licenses. It's the same thing driving murderers of abortion doctors. It's the Inquisition and Salem and genocides.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:14 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
to a large degree it's the thrill of justificatiion within a religion that eschews hypocrisy.
In a word, righteousness. It's the same thing driving the loon in KY that won't do her job of issuing marriage licenses. It's the same thing driving murderers of abortion doctors. It's the Inquisition and Salem and genocides.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:14 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan 6 months before 9-11 (though their treatment of women when they took over Afghanistan in the 90s was the real canary in the coal mine).
posted by brujita at 2:07 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by brujita at 2:07 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Shame on me for bringing up the plight of humans on a BBS that has said dick-all about the human tragedy of ISIS for the past X months while it works itself into a lather about some goddamn rocks.search term "isis" into upper right
first result is this thread which in its sixth comment remarks on human tragedy, second result is discussion of isis touching on their genocide/capital punishment/refugees/violence, third result is unrelated, fourth result is about the Turkish/Kurdish geopolitical-military situation and doesn't touch much on human tragedy, fifth result is unrelated, sixth result says above the fold "ISIS and other extremist movements across the region are enslaving, killing and uprooting Christians, with no aid in sight", seventh result is an odd piece about jihadi poetry, eighth result is about families of people kidnapped by isis
all of these are from the past two months and one day
i think this bbs is covering the human tragedy of isis
i respect your lack of caring about these rocks, but other people are allowed to care about multiple things at the same time, even if one thing is worse than another
posted by daveliepmann at 2:10 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Do a search for "Syria" too: there's a bunch of FPPs that don't use the word "ISIS" but are still talking about the conflict there.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Destruction of cultural heritage by ISIL
posted by numaner at 5:56 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 5:56 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Shame on me for bringing up the plight of humans on a BBS that has said dick-all about the human tragedy of ISIS for the past X months while it works itself into a lather about some goddamn rocks.
So recently I've been going through the British Museum's excellent History of the World in 100 Objects podcast. One of the things one takes away from the show is just how much a tiny, easily overlooked detail in an object can inform and connect us to other people across thousands of years and hundreds of generations, across who knows how many lost civilizations and languages. And often from goddamn rocks that were probably unremarkable in their own time.
When I hear about things like Palmyra temple being blown up, or the Bamiyan Buddhas being destroyed, I feel like these are the particularly accursed kind of human that would deliberately burn down the Library of Alexandria. Can we begin to imagine what was lost there? It's not just "things" that are being wrecked, but our connections to each other and our ancestors across entire human history.
posted by vanar sena at 6:21 AM on September 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
So recently I've been going through the British Museum's excellent History of the World in 100 Objects podcast. One of the things one takes away from the show is just how much a tiny, easily overlooked detail in an object can inform and connect us to other people across thousands of years and hundreds of generations, across who knows how many lost civilizations and languages. And often from goddamn rocks that were probably unremarkable in their own time.
When I hear about things like Palmyra temple being blown up, or the Bamiyan Buddhas being destroyed, I feel like these are the particularly accursed kind of human that would deliberately burn down the Library of Alexandria. Can we begin to imagine what was lost there? It's not just "things" that are being wrecked, but our connections to each other and our ancestors across entire human history.
posted by vanar sena at 6:21 AM on September 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
In one of the episodes - possibly the one about the Standard of Ur? Not sure - there was some discussion about how much the self-identity of the Iraqi people is connected to being the bearers of the legacy of civilizations like Sumer and Babylon, and the place where literature was arguably born. When the National Museum was sacked and looted, they took that shit personally because it struck at the core of their historical identity.
posted by vanar sena at 6:32 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by vanar sena at 6:32 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Any word from the followers of Baal/Bel on this?
The Abrahamic religions have always had it in for Baal.
Friends, if it doesn't violate any preexisting religious convictions you hold, consider saying a prayer to the Rider of the Clouds tonight as a little theological fuck-you to the fanatics who did this.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:56 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Abrahamic religions have always had it in for Baal.
Friends, if it doesn't violate any preexisting religious convictions you hold, consider saying a prayer to the Rider of the Clouds tonight as a little theological fuck-you to the fanatics who did this.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:56 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here are some shots of Palmyra that was: The female solo backpacker who braved a turbulent Syria to photograph the magnificent Palmyra temples, now being systematically destroyed by ISIS
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:36 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:36 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Isis profits from destruction of antiquities by selling relics to dealers – and then blowing up the buildings they come from to conceal the evidence of looting"
(admittedly, I think the profit motive may be the driving force over ideology here)
posted by quartzcity at 11:17 PM on September 3, 2015
(admittedly, I think the profit motive may be the driving force over ideology here)
posted by quartzcity at 11:17 PM on September 3, 2015
.
I visited Palmyra in 2007. Almost skipped it but I didn't know when I would ever be in Syria again, so I went. Glad I did now. Damn.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:44 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I visited Palmyra in 2007. Almost skipped it but I didn't know when I would ever be in Syria again, so I went. Glad I did now. Damn.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:44 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
What are we missing?
extreme misogyny? "Islamic State takes misogyny to a new level, actually boasting in their glossy magazine Dabiq about the righteousness of selling captured women as sex slaves."
salman rushdie: "The practice of extreme violence, known by the catch-all and often inexact term terrorism, was always of particular attraction to male individuals who were either virgins or unable to find sexual partners."
which btw, the answer is: 'Equal rights, unionization, eliminate patriarchy'
posted by kliuless at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2015
extreme misogyny? "Islamic State takes misogyny to a new level, actually boasting in their glossy magazine Dabiq about the righteousness of selling captured women as sex slaves."
salman rushdie: "The practice of extreme violence, known by the catch-all and often inexact term terrorism, was always of particular attraction to male individuals who were either virgins or unable to find sexual partners."
which btw, the answer is: 'Equal rights, unionization, eliminate patriarchy'
posted by kliuless at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2015
Some destruction of cultural artifacts goes unnoticed:
The roster of antiquities damaged in the war in Yemen runs long. Missiles fired from the coalition's planes have obliterated a museum (where the fruits of an American-Yemeni archaeological dig were stored), historic caked-mud high-rise dwellings, 12th century citadels and minarets and other places whose importance to humanity's heritage has been recognised by the UN. The Great Dam of Marib, a feat of engineering that was undertaken 2,800 years ago, has been struck four times, most recently on August 18th. Antiquities experts fear for the oldest surviving fragment of the Koran, in a six-month war which has killed over 4,000 and injured 20,000.
But apparently out of deference to their Saudi and Gulf friends, Western powers have yet to make much comment on the destruction in Yemen, whether humanitarian or cultural.posted by daveliepmann at 10:19 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Nat. Geo: Engineering Marvel’ of Queen of Sheba’s City Damaged in Airstrike
"The ancient Great Dam of Marib is one of several cultural casualties of Yemen conflict"
Meanwhile, on May 21, another Saudi airstrike destroyed the Dhamar Regional Museum, the main museum of the Dhamar governorate 90 miles (145 kilometers) southwest of Marib. The museum was the repository for more than 150 ancient South Arabian inscriptions, including the oldest-known inscriptions from the Yemeni highlands.posted by snuffleupagus at 9:16 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The museum’s inscriptions survive online as the result of a collaboration between the University of Pisa and Yemeni institutions in which more than 700 ancient inscriptions from nine of the country’s museums were inventoried and digitized. Project director Alessandra Avanzini says that the ultimate goal was to save and disseminate ancient South Arabian inscriptions so that researchers could have a better understanding of pre-Islamic history in the region. “Frankly, when we started the project, I did not imagine that ‘to save’ was to be taken literally,” she says.
There's a project (gofundme) to 3d model Palmyra using photogrammetry and crowdsourced tourists' photos.
posted by juv3nal at 5:58 PM on September 27, 2015
posted by juv3nal at 5:58 PM on September 27, 2015
This just came up in my recent activity so I'm going to add a couple things to my intemperate outburst:
1) Yup, photographs probably resolve enough detail to go the job;
2) Humans suck and I resent that we do not have the originals;
3) Our future is more important than its past
4) actual people are yet more important.
Dammit. Yet another intemperate outburst. WTF, humanity.
Fuck.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:40 PM on September 27, 2015
1) Yup, photographs probably resolve enough detail to go the job;
2) Humans suck and I resent that we do not have the originals;
3) Our future is more important than its past
4) actual people are yet more important.
Dammit. Yet another intemperate outburst. WTF, humanity.
Fuck.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:40 PM on September 27, 2015
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posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2015