Reducing bias by becoming friends with diverse television characters
September 8, 2015 10:43 AM Subscribe
"It's not easy to get different types of people to just organically become friends," [Edward Schiappa, a media studies researcher at MIT] says. So how do you get the benefits of intergroup contact theory in a socially segregated world? That's where television and my good friend the Fresh Prince come in.How Shows Like 'Will & Grace' And 'Black-ish' Can Change Your Brain - Maanvi Singh summarizes research into the potential for more inclusive and diverse television programming to reduce prejudices, for NPR's Codeswitch.
Although I imagine for some people, Hatch may have changed their perception of gay men from "wussy/effeminate" to "devious/evil".
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:58 AM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:58 AM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
I knew Just Jack would brainwash me into loving musical theater. DAMN YOU SEAN HAYES!
posted by Talez at 11:07 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Talez at 11:07 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Hatch kind of replaced the worst homosexual stereotypes of the 20th century with the worst homosexual stereotypes of the 19th century.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on September 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on September 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
The article touches on the ability of media to reinforce negative stereotypes:
posted by filthy light thief at 11:15 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Of course, just because television can encourage acceptance and open-mindedness doesn't mean it always works out that way. "It's not enough to just have a diversity of characters portrayed on TV," says Srividya Ramasubramanian, an associate professor of communication at Texas A&M University. "How the minority characters are portrayed really matters." Often when minority characters are portrayed on-screen, she says, they're in demeaning roles. The Big Bang Theory is one of Ramasubramanian's favorite shows, but she bristles at the character of Raj, an Indian astrophysicist, who has a thick accent, overbearing parents and zero game.I imagine you could find solid proof of new stereotypes that would be introduced from media, as mentioned above. I think the answer is then to have a broad representation of all sorts of people in shows, so there's not one character stuck as the emissary for all of Gay Men or Black Women on TV for any subset of viewers.
In her work, Ramasubramanian has found that those sorts of one-dimensional representations can actually reinforce prejudice. In a 2011 study published in Communications Research, she polled a bunch of college kids on whether they admired or disliked a bunch of widely recognized TV characters and personalities, some white, some black. In the results, David Palmer from 24 and Oprah were widely admired. Flavor Flav and The Apprentice's Omarosa were widely disliked.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:15 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
IMHO the tide turned on gay rights in large part because of Glee and Modern Family. Will and Grace tried but the timing was wrong and it didn't appeal to young people, which was the key.
My daughters (now teens) loved both shows, and their reality just included gay people from the first day they could remember, from a sympathetic but not (generally) cloying perspective.
posted by msalt at 11:21 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
My daughters (now teens) loved both shows, and their reality just included gay people from the first day they could remember, from a sympathetic but not (generally) cloying perspective.
posted by msalt at 11:21 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
that and decades of hard work by unpaid discriminated-against activists
posted by lalochezia at 11:44 AM on September 8, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 11:44 AM on September 8, 2015 [41 favorites]
without the plots on shows like roseanne we wouldn't have gotten to shows like will&grace, without shows like will&grace we wouldn't have gotten to shows like glee or modern family.
personally, i've seen reducing bias through tv in my own family - my mother's opinions about lesbians, and then more broadly about all queer people, changed because of ellen.
posted by nadawi at 11:45 AM on September 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
personally, i've seen reducing bias through tv in my own family - my mother's opinions about lesbians, and then more broadly about all queer people, changed because of ellen.
posted by nadawi at 11:45 AM on September 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
"The Jewish Quarter" … appears to be the first [show] on Egyptian television in at least six decades that has respectfully depicted Jewish families at prayer in a synagogue or Sabbath dinner. It is a stark turn from the overt anti-Semitism that has dominated Egyptian television for decades. The Israeli Embassy in Cairo commended the first episodes, commenting on an embassy-run Facebook page that for the first time, “it shows Jews in their real human state, as a human being before anything, and we bless this.”
posted by Kabanos at 11:47 AM on September 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 11:47 AM on September 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
I am SO GLAD you posted this. I have been thinking about this very thing for weeks.
I just got a novel I wrote accepted by an agent I was really hoping I'd get. I was excited! She likes my book! She thinks she can sell it!
Her one major editorial comment? "I think you should make Zoom black."
Zoom is the protagonist's best friend (they are both white, in my imagination, as am I, in reality). He is funny, and smart, and dorky in a way that's appealing. He's not just a foil for Tabitha. Zoom likes ragtime music, and practicing the survival techniques he reads about in books. The story is set in present-day and Jazz-age North Florida, and the south is definitely a main character in the book. So why did it rub me the wrong way to just "make Zoom black"? And why am I going to do it anyway?
It seems like being black or being white -- especially in America, and especially in the American south -- would be an essential aspect of your character and identity. It would (or at least could) influence the experiences and opportunities you had, to put it mildly. You can't just say "Bing! You're black!" A black person and a white person would act differently based on these experiences. Wouldn't they?
For instance, there's a scene where Zoom uses a magnifying glass to set fire to the junk mail gathered on the neighbor's porch, so he can lure the neighbor out into the open. A 13-year-old white boy might not think twice about doing this. If he gets caught by the gold-old-boy cops in this town, it's just innocent childhood mischief. But if a 13-year-old black boy is setting fire to the neighbor's mail? Are you kidding me? Tampering with the mail is a federal offence, don't you know, as is arson (I don't know if arson really is, but you get what I'm saying.) Plus, dangerous weapon! On the ground, now!
Where are Zoom's parents if he's black? Haven't they told him about the dangers of being a young black guy? Haven't they insisted that he be more polite, more reserved, more well behaved than others in public in order to avoid problems? Are they just letting him run around town with a 13-year-old white girl, solving mysteries and setting things on fire? Are they insane?
Also, I get really sick of the Inexplicable Ethnic Sidekick role that shows up in so many stories. "Wow, white person, your best friend is a sassy black lady? Or a zany black fellow? Mine too!" How is this possible? Where are these random black people best friends in real life? Because a whole lot of us live in defacto segregation. Our school cafeterias and playgrounds (and sometimes the whole school) are segregated, as are our neighborhoods and churches. I'm not saying it's across the board like this, but as the article said, it's hard to make friends organically with people who are different from you, partially because there is not a lot of daily contact. Just "making someone black" in a story checks off a box and makes everybody feel better, and it's shorthand for "the protagonist is a nice, inclusive, good person," but it doesn't reflect reality. It doesn't say that if you want to be friends you have to build bridges, cross gaps, mend fences, grade driveways, and other construction metaphors. You have to take risks, and maybe be uncomfortable sometimes. Nope, you don't have to do anything at all. Because eventually you will have a cool friend like on TV. And they'll be just like you! Only black!
But then I thought about how one of the only ways people ever get to meet, or sometimes even SEE, each other is through stories. If we keep writing and showing a homogenous, segregated reality, that is what people will think reality is, and so that's what reality will be. Maybe if we write books with real characters in them who have their own identities and own reasons for being and who aren't dependent on the white main character for existence, that will change expectations about who those "other" people are, and why they are here? It's worth a shot, anyway, and this article seems to confirm that it works.
I made the decision to rewrite Zoom as a black person when I was talking to my daughter about Disney princesses. I asked her who everyone liked at (her mainly white) school, and she said, "Um..."
So I said, "Tiana?" Tiana is the black Disney princess, and I said it kind of bitterly, because, yeah, there is a black princess, but how many of you can hum the tune to HER song ("I'm Almost There") compared to that blasted Princess Elsa's "Let It Go"?
And my daughter just GLARED at me and said, "Mom. Tiana is a MAJOR DISNEY PRINCESS. She is right up there on the box with all the rest." Then she stomped off in a huff, because I had so thoughtlessly dismissed Tiana. If Tiana hadn't been on that box, would my daughter know that princesses of course come in all different varieties, and would she have upbraided me about assuming otherwise?
Anyway, maybe it does make a difference. I guess the point is to create real characters, no matter what color they are, and not just placeholders. If more real people show up in stories, we'll get to know more real people in life. I sure hope that's true, and I hope Zoom is up to the task.
Thanks again for posting this, and for letting me think out loud, here.
posted by staggering termagant at 12:07 PM on September 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
I just got a novel I wrote accepted by an agent I was really hoping I'd get. I was excited! She likes my book! She thinks she can sell it!
Her one major editorial comment? "I think you should make Zoom black."
Zoom is the protagonist's best friend (they are both white, in my imagination, as am I, in reality). He is funny, and smart, and dorky in a way that's appealing. He's not just a foil for Tabitha. Zoom likes ragtime music, and practicing the survival techniques he reads about in books. The story is set in present-day and Jazz-age North Florida, and the south is definitely a main character in the book. So why did it rub me the wrong way to just "make Zoom black"? And why am I going to do it anyway?
It seems like being black or being white -- especially in America, and especially in the American south -- would be an essential aspect of your character and identity. It would (or at least could) influence the experiences and opportunities you had, to put it mildly. You can't just say "Bing! You're black!" A black person and a white person would act differently based on these experiences. Wouldn't they?
For instance, there's a scene where Zoom uses a magnifying glass to set fire to the junk mail gathered on the neighbor's porch, so he can lure the neighbor out into the open. A 13-year-old white boy might not think twice about doing this. If he gets caught by the gold-old-boy cops in this town, it's just innocent childhood mischief. But if a 13-year-old black boy is setting fire to the neighbor's mail? Are you kidding me? Tampering with the mail is a federal offence, don't you know, as is arson (I don't know if arson really is, but you get what I'm saying.) Plus, dangerous weapon! On the ground, now!
Where are Zoom's parents if he's black? Haven't they told him about the dangers of being a young black guy? Haven't they insisted that he be more polite, more reserved, more well behaved than others in public in order to avoid problems? Are they just letting him run around town with a 13-year-old white girl, solving mysteries and setting things on fire? Are they insane?
Also, I get really sick of the Inexplicable Ethnic Sidekick role that shows up in so many stories. "Wow, white person, your best friend is a sassy black lady? Or a zany black fellow? Mine too!" How is this possible? Where are these random black people best friends in real life? Because a whole lot of us live in defacto segregation. Our school cafeterias and playgrounds (and sometimes the whole school) are segregated, as are our neighborhoods and churches. I'm not saying it's across the board like this, but as the article said, it's hard to make friends organically with people who are different from you, partially because there is not a lot of daily contact. Just "making someone black" in a story checks off a box and makes everybody feel better, and it's shorthand for "the protagonist is a nice, inclusive, good person," but it doesn't reflect reality. It doesn't say that if you want to be friends you have to build bridges, cross gaps, mend fences, grade driveways, and other construction metaphors. You have to take risks, and maybe be uncomfortable sometimes. Nope, you don't have to do anything at all. Because eventually you will have a cool friend like on TV. And they'll be just like you! Only black!
But then I thought about how one of the only ways people ever get to meet, or sometimes even SEE, each other is through stories. If we keep writing and showing a homogenous, segregated reality, that is what people will think reality is, and so that's what reality will be. Maybe if we write books with real characters in them who have their own identities and own reasons for being and who aren't dependent on the white main character for existence, that will change expectations about who those "other" people are, and why they are here? It's worth a shot, anyway, and this article seems to confirm that it works.
I made the decision to rewrite Zoom as a black person when I was talking to my daughter about Disney princesses. I asked her who everyone liked at (her mainly white) school, and she said, "Um..."
So I said, "Tiana?" Tiana is the black Disney princess, and I said it kind of bitterly, because, yeah, there is a black princess, but how many of you can hum the tune to HER song ("I'm Almost There") compared to that blasted Princess Elsa's "Let It Go"?
And my daughter just GLARED at me and said, "Mom. Tiana is a MAJOR DISNEY PRINCESS. She is right up there on the box with all the rest." Then she stomped off in a huff, because I had so thoughtlessly dismissed Tiana. If Tiana hadn't been on that box, would my daughter know that princesses of course come in all different varieties, and would she have upbraided me about assuming otherwise?
Anyway, maybe it does make a difference. I guess the point is to create real characters, no matter what color they are, and not just placeholders. If more real people show up in stories, we'll get to know more real people in life. I sure hope that's true, and I hope Zoom is up to the task.
Thanks again for posting this, and for letting me think out loud, here.
posted by staggering termagant at 12:07 PM on September 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
Will and Grace tried but the timing was wrong and it didn't appeal to young people, which was the key.
Will and Grace was weirdly popular amongst a lot of my fellow servicemembers at the time. I can't draw a causal connection between that and the collective shrug from the ranks when DADT was repealed, but I've often wondered.
posted by Etrigan at 12:12 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Will and Grace was weirdly popular amongst a lot of my fellow servicemembers at the time. I can't draw a causal connection between that and the collective shrug from the ranks when DADT was repealed, but I've often wondered.
posted by Etrigan at 12:12 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
yeah, will & grace was hugely popular among my friends when i was 17.
posted by nadawi at 12:21 PM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:21 PM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
This makes a lot of intuitive sense, fascinating to see some research bear it out: the key to changing prejudices based on race etc. is to limit people's ability to otherize.
Along those lines, I think a big part of the rapid acceptance of gay rights (broadly speaking), alongside tireless advocacy and grudging legal work, was/is lots of people finally just started coming out. It's easier to hate "the gays" than it is to hate your child, or neighbor, or local favorite restaurant manager who always makes sure you get an extra scoop of ice cream in your regular dessert or whatever. Media that allow people to experience, even vicariously, the reality of those different from them, can be a great proxy to open up people's minds.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:27 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Along those lines, I think a big part of the rapid acceptance of gay rights (broadly speaking), alongside tireless advocacy and grudging legal work, was/is lots of people finally just started coming out. It's easier to hate "the gays" than it is to hate your child, or neighbor, or local favorite restaurant manager who always makes sure you get an extra scoop of ice cream in your regular dessert or whatever. Media that allow people to experience, even vicariously, the reality of those different from them, can be a great proxy to open up people's minds.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:27 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
LooseFilter, I was about to say this was about the tipping point, but now I think it's more of a bell curve, which will only be fully visible in retrospect. There are the front-runners, the advocates and those living proudly and visibly despite the harassment and danger. They are joined by more and more, until people start to shrug and say "you're gay? OK, so what?" Then more people come out, and more people don't care that people are coming out. This particular shift is far from complete, but more young people are definitely on the side of "what's the big deal?"
Eventually, we'll move away from "the gay character(s)" in a show, to "the characters who happen to also be gay." Sadly, I think race is a more gradual change.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:51 PM on September 8, 2015
Eventually, we'll move away from "the gay character(s)" in a show, to "the characters who happen to also be gay." Sadly, I think race is a more gradual change.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:51 PM on September 8, 2015
This is part of the reason I get so excited about kid's shows like the Avatar series or Steven Universe; the characters are diverse (gender, color, height, shape, non-hetero) and yet just portrayed as people, thereby expanding your mental picture of the word "people."
To the point where lots of things I loved as a kid look kind of weird to me now; why is everyone so white? Why do the dudes get to do all the fun stuff? Why do the main (white/male/hetero) characters constantly obsess over their manliness/pride/father issues? Why are there so few women compared to men? Why do women get portrayed so weirdly as lust-objects who are kind of dim and completely helpless?
It's so boring.
posted by emjaybee at 1:07 PM on September 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
To the point where lots of things I loved as a kid look kind of weird to me now; why is everyone so white? Why do the dudes get to do all the fun stuff? Why do the main (white/male/hetero) characters constantly obsess over their manliness/pride/father issues? Why are there so few women compared to men? Why do women get portrayed so weirdly as lust-objects who are kind of dim and completely helpless?
It's so boring.
posted by emjaybee at 1:07 PM on September 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
"It seems like being black or being white -- especially in America, and especially in the American south -- would be an essential aspect of your character and identity. It would (or at least could) influence the experiences and opportunities you had, to put it mildly. You can't just say "Bing! You're black!" A black person and a white person would act differently based on these experiences. Wouldn't they?"
I got into a big Facebook fight with a friend-of-a-friend recently because he considered "whiteness" to be an integral attribute for James Bond. Having Elba play Bond would have "fundamentally changed the character" in a way that he just couldn't support. I really did try to draw him out on this, but after a while just started posting Specials and TMBG videos.
Being black, especially in America, is a meaningful identity, but I think people, especially white people, overestimate how much it's a wholly alien identity rather than one that doesn't preclude interests and activities that are often white dominated — most of my friends growing up were black, and we still read comic books, watched anime and played video games. We still played pranks on our neighbors, blew up mailboxes with m80s and definitely set things on fire with magnifying glasses. I'm not saying that they had the same relationship with authority that I did — I remember getting rousted for MIP with a bunch of white friends and a black friend from the neighborhood, and we all got warnings while he got hauled off to the station on some bullshit warrant.
I was just talking to an older neighbor from my childhood about how even liberals and progressives often collapse black identity into a monolithic experience that dominates the lives of black people. Like, on one side of me we had a black Southern matriarch with her brood of ne'er do well kids, and you'd see her washing chitlins in a bucket on her stoop, but on the other side, a devout Muslim who was into samurai swords and helped build a Vikinig ship that sailed from the U.S. to Egypt. Being black was definitely salient to their lives, but there are so many ways to be black that just feel like they're excluded from white conversation entirely. Unfortunately, a lot of that correlates with class too.
I will say that I really enjoy Black-Ish generally, though there's definitely a fair amount of gender shit in there that's cringey. But it's funny to see things show up there that are both familiar and I had no idea were black culture — "the nod" is something that I thought was totally normal and was often kinda baffled by the lack of recognition from white people.
"yeah, will & grace was hugely popular among my friends when i was 17."
I'm kinda curious about this too, since it was only after moving to California that I met actual LGBT people who enjoyed that show. I was 19 when it first came on, and I was big into theater then. Will and Grace seemed like it was practically My Favorite Martian when it came to accurate portrayals of gay people. That was also right about the time that I started meeting gay guys who would now be called "bears," and even as someone who thought of himself as a progressive guy, it really was a sea-change to go from thinking of gay guys as a stereotype to realizing that hey, my roommate's friend just wants to blast punk rock, drink shitty beer and get laid? He's just like me! Because of that, I could really understand the loathing that a lot of my gay friends had for Will and Grace, and it was kinda weird for me to get to California and meet a bunch of LGBT people for whom it was a total cultural touchstone. Kind of like getting out here and finding out that people with otherwise good taste still bought new Red Hot Chili Peppers albums.
posted by klangklangston at 1:12 PM on September 8, 2015 [22 favorites]
I got into a big Facebook fight with a friend-of-a-friend recently because he considered "whiteness" to be an integral attribute for James Bond. Having Elba play Bond would have "fundamentally changed the character" in a way that he just couldn't support. I really did try to draw him out on this, but after a while just started posting Specials and TMBG videos.
Being black, especially in America, is a meaningful identity, but I think people, especially white people, overestimate how much it's a wholly alien identity rather than one that doesn't preclude interests and activities that are often white dominated — most of my friends growing up were black, and we still read comic books, watched anime and played video games. We still played pranks on our neighbors, blew up mailboxes with m80s and definitely set things on fire with magnifying glasses. I'm not saying that they had the same relationship with authority that I did — I remember getting rousted for MIP with a bunch of white friends and a black friend from the neighborhood, and we all got warnings while he got hauled off to the station on some bullshit warrant.
I was just talking to an older neighbor from my childhood about how even liberals and progressives often collapse black identity into a monolithic experience that dominates the lives of black people. Like, on one side of me we had a black Southern matriarch with her brood of ne'er do well kids, and you'd see her washing chitlins in a bucket on her stoop, but on the other side, a devout Muslim who was into samurai swords and helped build a Vikinig ship that sailed from the U.S. to Egypt. Being black was definitely salient to their lives, but there are so many ways to be black that just feel like they're excluded from white conversation entirely. Unfortunately, a lot of that correlates with class too.
I will say that I really enjoy Black-Ish generally, though there's definitely a fair amount of gender shit in there that's cringey. But it's funny to see things show up there that are both familiar and I had no idea were black culture — "the nod" is something that I thought was totally normal and was often kinda baffled by the lack of recognition from white people.
"yeah, will & grace was hugely popular among my friends when i was 17."
I'm kinda curious about this too, since it was only after moving to California that I met actual LGBT people who enjoyed that show. I was 19 when it first came on, and I was big into theater then. Will and Grace seemed like it was practically My Favorite Martian when it came to accurate portrayals of gay people. That was also right about the time that I started meeting gay guys who would now be called "bears," and even as someone who thought of himself as a progressive guy, it really was a sea-change to go from thinking of gay guys as a stereotype to realizing that hey, my roommate's friend just wants to blast punk rock, drink shitty beer and get laid? He's just like me! Because of that, I could really understand the loathing that a lot of my gay friends had for Will and Grace, and it was kinda weird for me to get to California and meet a bunch of LGBT people for whom it was a total cultural touchstone. Kind of like getting out here and finding out that people with otherwise good taste still bought new Red Hot Chili Peppers albums.
posted by klangklangston at 1:12 PM on September 8, 2015 [22 favorites]
IMHO the tide turned on gay rights in large part because of Glee and Modern Family.
In our house, we also point at the HGTV shows like "House Hunters" where there are boringly normal gay couples doing boringly normal things and nobody gives a shit about it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
In our house, we also point at the HGTV shows like "House Hunters" where there are boringly normal gay couples doing boringly normal things and nobody gives a shit about it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
This brings to mind an unfortunate reverse effect of this theory that I have witnessed. I had a co-worker back in the 1990's who was a big fan of Ellen Degeneres. She would frequently quote from her books and stand up. When Ellen suddenly came out, my co-worker stopped being a fan, and if someone were to bring Ellen up in conversation, she'd get a sour look on her face. You could tell she felt betrayed by Ellen, as if to say, "How dare you make me like you!"
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 1:25 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 1:25 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
ha! i was culturally about as far from california as possible....
posted by nadawi at 1:26 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 1:26 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
lots of things I loved as a kid look kind of weird to me now
My boys (12 & 9yo) were both utterly baffled by the scene in Back to the Future when a young Lorraine is assaulted by Bif, then stands by and shrieks while good-hearted nerd George defends her. Like, it was an obvious plot hole that she didn't DO anything.
"This is why Buffy the Vampire Slayer was such an important show, you guys - before that, you didn't see girls fight a lot. Or they'd help, but they never delivered the death blow." They both looked at me gobsmacked, like they'd just learned about the Irish potato famine.
In 1992 (or even '98) I did not anticipate that I'd be describing Buffy as "important." You just never know how things are going to look 20 years out. Did the change happen because of images in the media? Activism? It's like asking which blade in a pair of scissors does the cutting, because it's really both.
Now I need to start watching Black-ish. Reading the article made me realize I'm in the 91%(!!) of white Americans who has One Black Friend.
posted by selfmedicating at 1:34 PM on September 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
My boys (12 & 9yo) were both utterly baffled by the scene in Back to the Future when a young Lorraine is assaulted by Bif, then stands by and shrieks while good-hearted nerd George defends her. Like, it was an obvious plot hole that she didn't DO anything.
"This is why Buffy the Vampire Slayer was such an important show, you guys - before that, you didn't see girls fight a lot. Or they'd help, but they never delivered the death blow." They both looked at me gobsmacked, like they'd just learned about the Irish potato famine.
In 1992 (or even '98) I did not anticipate that I'd be describing Buffy as "important." You just never know how things are going to look 20 years out. Did the change happen because of images in the media? Activism? It's like asking which blade in a pair of scissors does the cutting, because it's really both.
Now I need to start watching Black-ish. Reading the article made me realize I'm in the 91%(!!) of white Americans who has One Black Friend.
posted by selfmedicating at 1:34 PM on September 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
IMHO the tide turned on gay rights in large part because of Glee and Modern Family.
So, true story. I was gardening in my front yard one day a few years back when I lived near the now-defunct Toronto (aka) Don Jail. These two biker dudes (and when I say that, I mean these guys had the scars, india ink tattoos from before the time when everybody had them, and craggy faces that suggested a life lived hard for decades, leather vests with no shirts underneath, the whole works) are walking by.
They were on their way to visit someone at the jail (I would see them line up at the visitor's entrance to the jail, and this was during visiting hours).
Anyway, as they walk by me, one of them is saying to the other "You know what? I don't care if Rob Halford likes to suck cock. I still say he's the best fuckin' metal singer of all time."
Baby steps.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2015 [28 favorites]
So, true story. I was gardening in my front yard one day a few years back when I lived near the now-defunct Toronto (aka) Don Jail. These two biker dudes (and when I say that, I mean these guys had the scars, india ink tattoos from before the time when everybody had them, and craggy faces that suggested a life lived hard for decades, leather vests with no shirts underneath, the whole works) are walking by.
They were on their way to visit someone at the jail (I would see them line up at the visitor's entrance to the jail, and this was during visiting hours).
Anyway, as they walk by me, one of them is saying to the other "You know what? I don't care if Rob Halford likes to suck cock. I still say he's the best fuckin' metal singer of all time."
Baby steps.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2015 [28 favorites]
More reason to watch Steven Universe!
posted by cuscutis at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by cuscutis at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
To the point where lots of things I loved as a kid look kind of weird to me now; why is everyone so white? Why do the dudes get to do all the fun stuff? Why do the main (white/male/hetero) characters constantly obsess over their manliness/pride/father issues? Why are there so few women compared to men? Why do women get portrayed so weirdly as lust-objects who are kind of dim and completely helpless?
This is all pretty close to what I do professionally (yay, I love when that happens!) I spend a lot of time thinking about representation in kids' media and some of that is just paying attention to the kids and what speaks to them. Recently I witnessed this discussion among a bunch of kids planning a (small) remake of a classic children's film:
"What changes should we make?"
"Since it's a boy, let's gender-swap it. Change it to a girl."
"Yeah! The main character can be a girl and her friend can be a boy."
"No, there are more girls in the class, so they should both be girls."
A bunch of kids: "Yeah! Have them both be girls!"
The kids of today are awesome. I wish they were running Hollywood.
posted by thetortoise at 1:46 PM on September 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is all pretty close to what I do professionally (yay, I love when that happens!) I spend a lot of time thinking about representation in kids' media and some of that is just paying attention to the kids and what speaks to them. Recently I witnessed this discussion among a bunch of kids planning a (small) remake of a classic children's film:
"What changes should we make?"
"Since it's a boy, let's gender-swap it. Change it to a girl."
"Yeah! The main character can be a girl and her friend can be a boy."
"No, there are more girls in the class, so they should both be girls."
A bunch of kids: "Yeah! Have them both be girls!"
The kids of today are awesome. I wish they were running Hollywood.
posted by thetortoise at 1:46 PM on September 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
More reason to watch Steven Universe!
The other being really weird but incredibly ingenious allegories to rape.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
The other being really weird but incredibly ingenious allegories to rape.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just happened to click over to Tumblr and saw this link to an article about the new Disney Infinity games. Buried halfway through is this quote:
Vignocchi said the decision to highlight Ahsoka, a female Jedi apprentice to Anakin, tied into surprising demographic data about Infinity’s players, adding that they expected a split of 70% male and 30% female. “With Disney’s IP treasure chest of powerful and strong female characters, we actually are seeing a split with Infinity that’s more 50% boys and 50% girls,” he said.
posted by emjaybee at 2:09 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Vignocchi said the decision to highlight Ahsoka, a female Jedi apprentice to Anakin, tied into surprising demographic data about Infinity’s players, adding that they expected a split of 70% male and 30% female. “With Disney’s IP treasure chest of powerful and strong female characters, we actually are seeing a split with Infinity that’s more 50% boys and 50% girls,” he said.
posted by emjaybee at 2:09 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really hope this holds true with books. I try to diversify at my small public library whenever I can. Did you hear? One of the protagonists of Captain Underpants is gay!
posted by Biblio at 3:16 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Biblio at 3:16 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Conversely, there's a lot of horrible crap on tv teaching that it's ok to be unkind, lie, etc. Some shows make me want to take an axe to the tv, probably much less satisfying with no CRT.
posted by theora55 at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I remember having an interesting chat with my goddaughters friend, who told me she was disappointed there were no gay or lesbian characters in harry potter. I asked her if she thought kids that age would be out, and she looked at me in shock and said "of course!"
Well shut my mouth!
I told her that in my day it was very unlikely anyone would be out. Even if they had friends who overtly spoke up for gay and lesbian rights, they were not likely to come out to those friends until adult hood. That was my experience, and I figured Rowling being around my age might play into the absence.
Then she looked at me with the same shocked look I'd just given her.
I think she was right, it would have been better to have some out gay kids. I vote Ginny. Sorry, Harry.
posted by chapps at 8:26 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well shut my mouth!
I told her that in my day it was very unlikely anyone would be out. Even if they had friends who overtly spoke up for gay and lesbian rights, they were not likely to come out to those friends until adult hood. That was my experience, and I figured Rowling being around my age might play into the absence.
Then she looked at me with the same shocked look I'd just given her.
I think she was right, it would have been better to have some out gay kids. I vote Ginny. Sorry, Harry.
posted by chapps at 8:26 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
i came out to my classmates in '95 or '96. i was very alone in this. i had known since at least '86. i'm glad to see kids telling their truths earlier.
posted by nadawi at 8:38 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 8:38 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is why I've been trying to get people to watch The Carmichael Show. The humor is broad, but the actors are funny. And what's less stereotypical than having six Black adults on a show, so they can each by their own personality? And honestly, I'd have been promoting Mr. Robinson better if I'd heard it was airing sooner. I'd actually been waiting for this show and the network kind of slipped it out in August with no fanfare and doubled up episodes. Same with The Carmichael Show, really, except that it came right after, so at least I knew there was awesomeness back on TV by then.
Also, one of the many things that makes me crazy about the "best friend who's Black" trope is that inevitably when they want to date, exactly one other Black person suddenly appears like magic. Because somehow that's the only person they could date. For some reason in all the examples I could think of, they had just moved to town*. Either way it's bizarre and has some racist attitudes baked in.
*Veronica Mars, The Vampire Diaries
posted by Margalo Epps at 8:47 PM on September 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also, one of the many things that makes me crazy about the "best friend who's Black" trope is that inevitably when they want to date, exactly one other Black person suddenly appears like magic. Because somehow that's the only person they could date. For some reason in all the examples I could think of, they had just moved to town*. Either way it's bizarre and has some racist attitudes baked in.
*Veronica Mars, The Vampire Diaries
posted by Margalo Epps at 8:47 PM on September 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I graduated from high school in 88. It was a hard time to be queer, for sure, in my small town. The AIDS crisis was at its heights and there was a lot of overt hateful prejudice.
I had some friends in Vancouver who were out (even a couple of teen drag queens!) and the big city punk-alt subculture made that (kind of) possible, I guess. Those folks opened my eyes a lot.
posted by chapps at 9:40 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had some friends in Vancouver who were out (even a couple of teen drag queens!) and the big city punk-alt subculture made that (kind of) possible, I guess. Those folks opened my eyes a lot.
posted by chapps at 9:40 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, re the article, my early media exposure (grade 11-12) included "Torch Song Trilogy" (I still hold this movie particularly dear) and "Maurice" and (maybe in University) "My Beautiful Laundrette". These were introduced to me via friends who had already gone to University.
I think we also had an awesome drama teacher, and I actually staged a scene from a play about a gay kid realizing they were gay as a class project. Teachers made a big difference. Tea and Sympathy? It was only a scene, but it was sympathetic and tragic
(Tragic being the core requirement of most lgbt film until very recently!)
posted by chapps at 9:51 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think we also had an awesome drama teacher, and I actually staged a scene from a play about a gay kid realizing they were gay as a class project. Teachers made a big difference. Tea and Sympathy? It was only a scene, but it was sympathetic and tragic
(Tragic being the core requirement of most lgbt film until very recently!)
posted by chapps at 9:51 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
msalt: "IMHO the tide turned on gay rights in large part because of Glee and Modern Family."
lalochezia: "that and decades of hard work by unpaid discriminated-against activists"
Decades of hard work is what got the US to a point that a show like Glee could be made and become a hit. Glee is what made actual changes in people around me. Arguing for or casually dismissing one or the other is like arguing about whether credit for a machine should go to the factory that assembled it, or the smelter that provided the metal used to make the machine, or the mine which provided the ore used to make the metal, or...
klangklangston: "But it's funny to see things show up there that are both familiar and I had no idea were black culture — "the nod" is something that I thought was totally normal and was often kinda baffled by the lack of recognition from white people. "
Okay, way off topic here, but I'd never heard of the nod, so I googled it, which brought up this article. It says that white people don't know the Nod and find it bewildering. The Nod must be some inherent part of the human condition, because I totally believe that, and yet white people here in Japan do the Nod (or, rather, the Nod-and-Hey) in the same situations. So white people surrounded by other white people don't see the Nod, and find it weird when informed of it, but when put into a long term situation where they are the minority, they spontaneously pick up the same habit.
posted by Bugbread at 11:08 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
lalochezia: "that and decades of hard work by unpaid discriminated-against activists"
Decades of hard work is what got the US to a point that a show like Glee could be made and become a hit. Glee is what made actual changes in people around me. Arguing for or casually dismissing one or the other is like arguing about whether credit for a machine should go to the factory that assembled it, or the smelter that provided the metal used to make the machine, or the mine which provided the ore used to make the metal, or...
klangklangston: "But it's funny to see things show up there that are both familiar and I had no idea were black culture — "the nod" is something that I thought was totally normal and was often kinda baffled by the lack of recognition from white people. "
Okay, way off topic here, but I'd never heard of the nod, so I googled it, which brought up this article. It says that white people don't know the Nod and find it bewildering. The Nod must be some inherent part of the human condition, because I totally believe that, and yet white people here in Japan do the Nod (or, rather, the Nod-and-Hey) in the same situations. So white people surrounded by other white people don't see the Nod, and find it weird when informed of it, but when put into a long term situation where they are the minority, they spontaneously pick up the same habit.
posted by Bugbread at 11:08 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reading this article, I was reminded of Sut Jhally and Justin Lewis's study of audience responses to The Cosby Show, Enlightened Racism. I feel weird talking about that book now, because Bill Cosby's image has sure changed in the 20-odd years since it was published, but it can be a good reference point in these kinds of discussions.
One interesting thing the study found was that white audiences had positive, warm reactions to the Huxtables (and, by extension, Cosby)-- you could definitely describe those relationships as parasocial-- and yet this did not improve their understanding of structural racism at all. In fact, it had a detrimental effect, because white viewers often saw the characters as people who had worked harder and were more deserving than stereotypical black families.
Black viewers were quick to point out the less-plausible elements of the Huxtables' class situation and the times that their lives were mysteriously free of the effects of racism; they readily recognized the show as a fiction. White viewers took it more uncritically, and this, combined with the fact that (on average) white viewers didn't know that many POC, meant that they considered the "reality" of Cliff Huxtable more significant than lived Black realities. It's an odd paradoxical effect.
posted by thetortoise at 11:32 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
One interesting thing the study found was that white audiences had positive, warm reactions to the Huxtables (and, by extension, Cosby)-- you could definitely describe those relationships as parasocial-- and yet this did not improve their understanding of structural racism at all. In fact, it had a detrimental effect, because white viewers often saw the characters as people who had worked harder and were more deserving than stereotypical black families.
Black viewers were quick to point out the less-plausible elements of the Huxtables' class situation and the times that their lives were mysteriously free of the effects of racism; they readily recognized the show as a fiction. White viewers took it more uncritically, and this, combined with the fact that (on average) white viewers didn't know that many POC, meant that they considered the "reality" of Cliff Huxtable more significant than lived Black realities. It's an odd paradoxical effect.
posted by thetortoise at 11:32 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
thetortoise: "It's an odd paradoxical effect."
It only seems paradoxical because it presents a positive view of black people, but at the same time ignores racism. But those aren't mutually exclusive, and a show which combined those two would not, I suspect, produce that same effect, so it's not actually paradoxical. Consider, for example, Glee, which presents a positive view of homosexuals, and often depicts homophobic persecution.
posted by Bugbread at 1:56 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
It only seems paradoxical because it presents a positive view of black people, but at the same time ignores racism. But those aren't mutually exclusive, and a show which combined those two would not, I suspect, produce that same effect, so it's not actually paradoxical. Consider, for example, Glee, which presents a positive view of homosexuals, and often depicts homophobic persecution.
posted by Bugbread at 1:56 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's true, but it's also tricky to get that right, and writers with a platform who mean well but are clueless can make things worse. Compare Glee's treatment of homosexuality and queerness to its treatment of disabilities, for example; the former is better-informed and approaches the subject from a multitude of characters and angles, but the latter has on occasion affirmed ableist myths and been widely criticized as not getting it right. This is why it's so important, when you're producing something involving underrepresented groups, to have people in those groups writing and on staff, or at the very least present in the conversation. As the article observes, writer's rooms aren't that diverse yet, so media producers who want to approach this responsibly should be open to feedback.
posted by thetortoise at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by thetortoise at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
"i came out to my classmates in '95 or '96. i was very alone in this. i had known since at least '86. i'm glad to see kids telling their truths earlier."
Yeah, it's definitely a positive trend that simultaneously makes me feel really old. I went to two high schools, one a magnet school for hippies and the other a big regional school, and I did theater at the big regional school since that was where I started. At the little hippy school, we had a GSA (Wilson Cruz came to talk to us!) and same-sex experimentation was pretty normal even if you didn't end up identifying as LGB. At the bigger school, there were so many people in glass closets — including a "couple" that both came out right after graduation to the general bafflement of the rest of us, since it was like Paul Lynde dating Lea DeLaria. At the time it seemed silly, now it seems profoundly sad that they didn't have the support they needed to just be out, even to their friends. I'm so glad that kids these days are able to have an easier time of it. I mean, still more bullshit than they should have to deal with, but so much less tolerance for casual homophobia and outright discrimination.
"So white people surrounded by other white people don't see the Nod, and find it weird when informed of it, but when put into a long term situation where they are the minority, they spontaneously pick up the same habit."
That's pretty interesting. I kinda wish there was some way to measure that — how long it takes to develop the habit, how disproportionate the demographics have to be. It's also weird because it's such a reflexive thing — I'm not black, but when I give it to black guys, I'll generally get it back, and I was never consciously taught it. I wonder how that develops and spreads in new situations.
posted by klangklangston at 9:47 AM on September 9, 2015
Yeah, it's definitely a positive trend that simultaneously makes me feel really old. I went to two high schools, one a magnet school for hippies and the other a big regional school, and I did theater at the big regional school since that was where I started. At the little hippy school, we had a GSA (Wilson Cruz came to talk to us!) and same-sex experimentation was pretty normal even if you didn't end up identifying as LGB. At the bigger school, there were so many people in glass closets — including a "couple" that both came out right after graduation to the general bafflement of the rest of us, since it was like Paul Lynde dating Lea DeLaria. At the time it seemed silly, now it seems profoundly sad that they didn't have the support they needed to just be out, even to their friends. I'm so glad that kids these days are able to have an easier time of it. I mean, still more bullshit than they should have to deal with, but so much less tolerance for casual homophobia and outright discrimination.
"So white people surrounded by other white people don't see the Nod, and find it weird when informed of it, but when put into a long term situation where they are the minority, they spontaneously pick up the same habit."
That's pretty interesting. I kinda wish there was some way to measure that — how long it takes to develop the habit, how disproportionate the demographics have to be. It's also weird because it's such a reflexive thing — I'm not black, but when I give it to black guys, I'll generally get it back, and I was never consciously taught it. I wonder how that develops and spreads in new situations.
posted by klangklangston at 9:47 AM on September 9, 2015
This is why it's so important, when you're producing something involving underrepresented groups, to have people in those groups writing and on staff, or at the very least present in the conversation. As the article observes, writer's rooms aren't that diverse yet, so media producers who want to approach this responsibly should be open to feedback.
"Nothing about us without us."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:11 PM on September 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Nothing about us without us."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:11 PM on September 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Compare Glee's treatment of homosexuality and queerness to its treatment of disabilities
The only episode of Glee I've watched is the Rocky Horror one, because hey, Rocky Horror. One of the characters uses the word "tranny" and gets zero push back for it, no one mentions that hey that's a slur and maybe don't.
I understand the show has at least one very special episode about how "fag" is a slur and maybe don't, so I'm still hung up on that.
Also mad how they butchered the themes of the play - I'm pretty sure Rocky Horror actually *is* about forcing other people to witness your freaky weirdness, that's basically the whole plot right there. Plus none of the guys are comfortable playing Frank, so one of the girls does it, which, fine. But then they keep the fishnets and line "I'm not much of a man", which makes no sense unless we're assuming some next level gender shit which would be fantastic, actually, but is really not what's going on here.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:20 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only episode of Glee I've watched is the Rocky Horror one, because hey, Rocky Horror. One of the characters uses the word "tranny" and gets zero push back for it, no one mentions that hey that's a slur and maybe don't.
I understand the show has at least one very special episode about how "fag" is a slur and maybe don't, so I'm still hung up on that.
Also mad how they butchered the themes of the play - I'm pretty sure Rocky Horror actually *is* about forcing other people to witness your freaky weirdness, that's basically the whole plot right there. Plus none of the guys are comfortable playing Frank, so one of the girls does it, which, fine. But then they keep the fishnets and line "I'm not much of a man", which makes no sense unless we're assuming some next level gender shit which would be fantastic, actually, but is really not what's going on here.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:20 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, my knowledge of Glee is spotty, but from what I understand, their track record with gay characters has been much better than with trans and bisexual characters. (Probably not coincidental that Ryan Murphy is cis and gay.)
posted by thetortoise at 12:28 PM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 12:28 PM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Glee's track record with trans issues is really uneven. It feels like the scripts were written up by a two-person team consisting of a transsexual and a transphobe. There were still no trans characters on the show when the Rocky Horror episode was made, but by the time the show ended there were two regular trans characters, episodes about transphobia, and an episode that explicitly addresses the use of "tranny" as a slur. Then again, transness was often used for laughs. Homosexuality was also used for laughs, but it somehow came off different. So it just felt really uneven. Not "middle-of-the-road" as much as "definitely pro-trans" mixed with "definitely anti-trans".
posted by Bugbread at 4:01 PM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 4:01 PM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Really enjoyed this article, especially where she criticises the character of Raj in The Big Bang Theory. I enjoy the Big Bang Theory, but Raj always irks me because of his degree of social incompetence and his character's adherence to hoary cliches about Indian immigrants. Thick accent, check. Overbearing parents, check. Inability to get with women, check. It really bothers me, as an immigrant myself, that one of the most highly visible popular cultural depictions of my ethnicity is a figure of fun.
Sure, TBBT is about a group of dorks, so perhaps I shouldn't get so up in arms about how the one Indian character is also a dork. But it would be so nice to watch a mainstream American show in which the Indian character is only incidentally Indian, and the humour did not have to come solely from cliches about Indian people. I would welcome recommendations!
British TV is, I feel, better with dealing with characters from different ethnic backgrounds and not making it all about their ethnicity. Some Girls and Fried both feature Mandeep Dhillon as a British-Asian character whose plots do not all revolve around the fact that she happens to be of a different ethnicity than the other characters.
posted by Ziggy500 at 3:29 AM on September 10, 2015
Sure, TBBT is about a group of dorks, so perhaps I shouldn't get so up in arms about how the one Indian character is also a dork. But it would be so nice to watch a mainstream American show in which the Indian character is only incidentally Indian, and the humour did not have to come solely from cliches about Indian people. I would welcome recommendations!
British TV is, I feel, better with dealing with characters from different ethnic backgrounds and not making it all about their ethnicity. Some Girls and Fried both feature Mandeep Dhillon as a British-Asian character whose plots do not all revolve around the fact that she happens to be of a different ethnicity than the other characters.
posted by Ziggy500 at 3:29 AM on September 10, 2015
But it would be so nice to watch a mainstream American show in which the Indian character is only incidentally Indian, and the humour did not have to come solely from cliches about Indian people. I would welcome recommendations!
Oh, wait, Mindy, of course. I love her and love that show.
posted by Ziggy500 at 4:01 AM on September 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, wait, Mindy, of course. I love her and love that show.
posted by Ziggy500 at 4:01 AM on September 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
But it would be so nice to watch a mainstream American show in which the Indian character is only incidentally Indian, and the humour did not have to come solely from cliches about Indian people. I would welcome recommendations!
I was typing "Mindy Kaling" when I saw your followup. What about Aziz Ansari on Parks and Rec? (Interestingly, the other great TV character played by an Indian actor who comes to mind, Danny Pudi as Abed, isn't written as Indian.)
posted by thetortoise at 5:16 AM on September 10, 2015
I was typing "Mindy Kaling" when I saw your followup. What about Aziz Ansari on Parks and Rec? (Interestingly, the other great TV character played by an Indian actor who comes to mind, Danny Pudi as Abed, isn't written as Indian.)
posted by thetortoise at 5:16 AM on September 10, 2015
More recently from NPR:
Sept. 19: Showrunner Hopes 'Empire' Is 'On The Crest Of A Wave Of Change'
Sept. 19: Showrunner Hopes 'Empire' Is 'On The Crest Of A Wave Of Change'
On what Chaiken saw in the pilot episodeSept 21: Viola Davis' Emmy Win Shows TV's Power To Shape Perception
It just worked. It worked powerfully. It's a drama about an African-American family and that hasn't been on broadcast television. There have been comedies. When I did The L Word, I thought, "The real win here, the real difference is that we've got a drama. Gay characters have been on television and comedies, but starring in a drama is very different because we're asking you to take us seriously."
She's the first black woman to win best actress in a drama series. NPR's TV critic says for those who've insisted diversity on TV is important, this is proof.posted by filthy light thief at 9:07 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:51 AM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]