GOP 2016 Presidential Debates: one down, 16 to go
September 16, 2015 10:21 AM   Subscribe

The GOP 2016 presidential candidates will again be split into two sessions for tonight's debates on CNN, but the pool is getting smaller, as Rick Perry suspended his campaign, bowing out before being in the second-tier debates for a second time, and former Virgina governor Jim Gilmore, with a hair above 0% nationally, will participate ... via Twitter*. But the biggest news on the main stage is the inclusion of Carly Fiorina, thanks to her rise in the few polls since the Fox debate (previously).

*Jim Gilmore was cut from CNN for failing to average 1% support in any three polls released during the two-month window, which was the cut-off for inclusion in tonight's debates. According to NPR's calculations, while Fiorina moved up, Chris Christie could have been demoted to the second-tier debate, but he will still participate because he made it in under the old rules.

Speaking of Twitter, the social media platform teamed up with payments service Square to allow its users to donate to political candidates via tweets. NPR has a bit more on how the "cashtag" would actually work.

But what to expect from this debate? CNN’s team of producers and moderators said they were looking to establish a different tempo and to emphasize candidate interaction above all else.
“My goal is more about: Let’s draw the contrasts between the candidates, and have them fight it out over these policies, over who has the best approach to Putin, over who has the best approach to taxes, over who believes what over immigration reform,” said Jake Tapper, CNN’s chief Washington correspondent, who is moderating Wednesday’s debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. “Have them lay it all out so voters can see it.”
Tapper cited the the sparring of Christie versus Paul over NSA's data collection as the kind of TV CNN is trying to set up tonight, but there will be less playing to the audience, as instead of an auditorium full of cheers and boos, the candidates will be in a more intimate setting with roughly 400 people.

For more on the CNN debate, they have a special debate portal page set up.

If you're looking ahead to as-of-yet unscheduled general election debates and want to get a better idea of who's winning now, The New York Times has a dashboard of indicators, which currently put Jeb! above Trump, thanks to his national endorsements to date (see also: Wikipedia article for Endorsements for the Democratic Party presidential primaries, 2016). You can also see the current Endorsement Primary on 538. Or if you want a bit more content (and humor, including reviews of the candidates 404 pages), see The Atlantic's cheat sheet.
posted by filthy light thief (871 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite
 
Supposedly CNN is going to have, unlike Fox News, a free online feed of the debate for those who don't pay for cable TV. No link yet though.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


What, Rick Perry is out? Shouldn't there have been a Hunger Games cannon shot in the sky and dramatic music? The special effects budget is really down for Season 2.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2015 [88 favorites]


I can't believe I just realized this, but with this many debates and this many candidates, the GOP should just start eliminating one per round, reality TV style. It would be fitting given the candidates.

It'll be interesting to see how a smaller crowd affects Trump's schtick (if it does at all).
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:27 AM on September 16, 2015 [31 favorites]


former Virgina governor Jim Gilmore, with a hair above 0%

For a minute there, I thought you were referring to Trump.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:28 AM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


I suggest we skip the debates and solve this all Joker-style. Reince Priebus's knee will probably get sore breaking enough cue sticks for everyone but it's a small price to pay in comparison to this debate slog.
posted by ckape at 10:34 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


CNN is framing its GOP debate as entertainment first, policy later.

We have the circuses, where's the bread?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:37 AM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


BYOBread, of course. What do you think this is, a welfare state? Socialism?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [39 favorites]


What, Rick Perry is out? Shouldn't there have been a Hunger Games cannon shot in the sky and dramatic music?

Colbert has you covered. Goodbye District Texas!
posted by odinsdream at 10:41 AM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]


Can we lobby CNN to use Raza Odiada as Trump's entry music?

Pito Wilson!
posted by Existential Dread at 10:41 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


National treasure Charles Pierce reminds us* that All of These Republican Candidates Are Horrible.

*Apparently sorely needed by NPR, which aired a thumbsucker on Carly Fiorina that let her present her own side of her ouster from Hewlett-Packard without any factual context whatever.
posted by Gelatin at 10:42 AM on September 16, 2015 [28 favorites]


CNN is framing its GOP debate as entertainment first, policy later.

I don't know whether to be upset at them for not acting like a news organization or happy that they're finally being honest with us.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:43 AM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Also: NPR, blindly repeating bald-faced Republican lies with nary a blink? Shocked, I am shocked.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:44 AM on September 16, 2015 [14 favorites]


I'm not sure that I can stomach watching the debates tonight, I may just keep reading this thread and trust you guys to give me the highlights.
posted by octothorpe at 10:44 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


140 characters or fewer seems appropriate for a candidate with 140 voters or fewer.
posted by stevis23 at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


the biggest news on the main stage is the inclusion of Carly Fiorina

I'll wager 400 quatloos on the newcomer!


Five thousand quatloos that all combatants will have to be destroyed.
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:49 AM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


Sometimes I think thant Fiorina and Carson exist to make Trump look kind and reasonable. They're all awful.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:49 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The news keeps framing it as "immigration reform", but what Trump's spouting is just overt racism, and nobody's willing to tell him to shut up, and I'm afraid I'm going to be functionally orphaned by it. My Mexican-American father died last year. My mother has already taken the stance that my brother and I should not describe ourselves as Hispanic because we don't look Hispanic, and I don't even want to think about where things are headed at this rate.

The liberals are talking about a path to citizenship, and the conservatives are talking about building walls to keep Those People out. "Immigration reform" is a disgusting whitewashing of that fact. I can't even watch these this time around because all I can see is the looming fact that I may well have to permanently cut ties with my mother if I want to avoid that poison. It's gone from just "catering to racists to win" to outright normalizing things that as a kid I thought I'd never hear people say out loud. Rob Portman, who I have been trying hard to grudgingly respect, said fairly recently that he'd support a Trump nomination as long as "something crazy" doesn't happen. Like something crazy hasn't already happened. They've all gone mad.
posted by Sequence at 10:51 AM on September 16, 2015 [43 favorites]


NPR seems determined to keep pretending that the Republicans aren't completely bat-shit crazy and keeps reporting on them with a straight face as if they weren't the Very Silly Party.
posted by octothorpe at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]


Can't we just have the candidates bare-knuckle box like Kennedy and Nixon?
posted by griphus at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


I wish the Democrats would have a debate soon. I can't believe they've ceded the airwaves to Republicans for this long. We're going to end up with an Overton window set entirely by Trump this election if we aren't careful (and it's already happening with immigration).
posted by dialetheia at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


Is there any Republican candidate would would not qualify as a bona-fide, DSM-5 grade, capital N Narcissist?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The news keeps framing it as "immigration reform"

...while the Republican Party prevents any actual immigration reform (short of "No Mexicans Allowed") because their crazy base has been trained to scream "AMNESTY!!!" in response to anything.
posted by Gelatin at 10:56 AM on September 16, 2015


The news keeps framing it as "immigration reform", but what Trump's spouting is just overt racism, and nobody's willing to tell him to shut up, and I'm afraid I'm going to be functionally orphaned by it.

What Trump is spewing is absolutely vile, and should be called out by everyone with a voice in the Republican party. It's horrific white nationalist jackbooted rhetoric, and my hope is that it authoritatively tanks the Republicans in the general election, similar to the backlash against Pete fuckin Wilson in CA. NPR did an interesting piece on that history yesterday.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:57 AM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


dialetheia:
"I can't believe they've ceded the airwaves to Republicans for this long."
The plan seems to be to sit back and laugh as long as possible without seeming TOO smug.
posted by charred husk at 10:59 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Which one will mention Ahmed?
posted by fullerine at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


The plan seems to be to sit back and laugh as long as possible without seeming TOO smug.

With 16 or so Republican candidates trying to out-do each other with appeals to an extreme right-wing base, the Democrats are -- for once -- playing it savvy by letting them attack each other, while (one hopes) harvesting lots of crazy sounding soundbites for the general election when the ultimate nominee tries to run to the center.

The so-called "liberal media" will do its best to forget the wacky John Birch-style policy proposals of the Republican primary come 2016, but (again, one hopes) the Democrats won't let them.
posted by Gelatin at 11:05 AM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'd add that the Democrats injecting themselves into the clown show of the Republican primary gives the collection of knaves and fools an opportunity to unite in their attacks against the Democrats instead of each other. Lying low is the perfect strategy.

(Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders seems to be pulling Hillary Clinton to the left -- and good on him for doing so -- but despite the so-called "liberal media"'s obsession with finding phony "balance," none of his positions are all that radical. Mostly bog-standard 1970s Democrat stuff. Which, come to think of it, is farther to the left these days...)
posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on September 16, 2015 [23 favorites]


At this point, Trump could just make a bunch of fart noises every time it was his turn to speak - and while the others are speaking, too - and his poll numbers would rise.

What the future holds, I do not know.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:17 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


NPR, which aired a thumbsucker on Carly Fiorina that let her present her own side of her ouster from Hewlett-Packard without any factual context whatever.

If NPR won't question Fiorina on her causing 30,000 highly-trained people to lose their jobs, I hope that Trump or any other candidate does. The only reason she is even involved, frankly, is because she is female. Republicans have a real problem with women, and their party needs to cynically prop her up to try to spackle over their image problem.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:19 AM on September 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


If NPR won't question Fiorina on her causing 30,000 highly-trained people to lose their jobs, I hope that Trump or any other candidate does. The only reason she is even involved, frankly, is because she is female.

NPR did note that she was presenting herself as the "anti-Hillary." But her spin on her disastrous tenure at H-P basically was that she was ousted because she was a woman and tried to shake up the old boys' club.
posted by Gelatin at 11:24 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure that I can stomach watching the debates tonight

I don't know why anyone who wasn't a masochist would. There will be very little to be learned from it and anything dramatic will be repeated tomorrow (and tomorrow and tomorrow). The slim chance of someone cracking and running nude through the hall is only reason I can think of.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:30 AM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


[waves pennant reading NUDEMAN 2015]
posted by griphus at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


BIGLY/NUDEMAN: '16!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:36 AM on September 16, 2015


Is Deez Nuts in the "kid's table" debate or duking it out with the Real Men (and Woman)?
posted by briank at 11:40 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Where's Rick Santorum? 'Cause wherever Deez Nuts is, Santorum can't be far behind.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:42 AM on September 16, 2015 [25 favorites]


I don't like to ascribe any praiseworthy characteristics to Ronald Reagan, who I see as one of the worst public officials in America's history, but he would be rolling over in his grave, disturbing all of the jellybeans, if he could see this lineup.
posted by codacorolla at 11:44 AM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


...and may his sleep be most unrestful.
posted by mintcake! at 11:46 AM on September 16, 2015 [17 favorites]


Deez Nuts will be in Bofa during the debates but he'll teleconference in via Henway.
posted by griphus at 11:47 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I don't like to ascribe any praiseworthy characteristics to Ronald Reagan, who I see as one of the worst public officials in America's history, but he would be rolling over in his grave, disturbing all of the jellybeans, if he could see this lineup.

I agree with Pierce's prediction that everyone will howl appeasement about the successful nuclear negotiation with Iran, and little note that Reagan himself sold advanced weapons to Iran.
posted by Gelatin at 11:49 AM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


But her spin on her disastrous tenure at H-P basically was that she was ousted because she was a woman and tried to shake up the old boys' club.

Fiorina is invoking a lot of feminist rhetoric. Passed on by a family member the other day:

"This is the face of a 61-year-old woman. I am proud of every year and every wrinkle."- Carly Fiorina "I actually do not exist for your viewing pleasure"- girlonsaturday

How that jibes with the rest of her campaign and in a primary context to a party that can be hostile to it will be interesting.
posted by weston at 11:51 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh no! Am I going to have to stay up too late and drink too much wine watching this with the debate open in one window and chat.metafilter open in the other?

...I guess I am.

What's everyone drinking?
posted by aka burlap at 11:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think I'm one of the few people who loves election season. I love it like sports fans love sports seasons. And I especially love the ridiculous parts of it. Stephen Colbert's oreo/Trump analogy is very apt - except for me it isn't just Trump, it's every single candidate:

"One is enough, that's the only Trump story I'll be treating myself to tonight.

Well, maybe one more..."

posted by triggerfinger at 12:04 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


What's everyone drinking?

Grain alcohol and rain water.
posted by octothorpe at 12:05 PM on September 16, 2015 [34 favorites]


I'm not sure that I can stomach watching the debates tonight

I don't know why anyone who wasn't a masochist would.


Hey, some of us depend on those MeFi masochists to live-blog these damn things for our next-morning entertainment!
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I have a horrible cold and my head is the the pounding wreckage of a sinus freight train derailed, so my thinking is maybe it will technically feel better by comparison.
posted by cortex at 12:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am flying today, so I am being held captive by #CNNDEBATE coverage in the airport. There are 2 hours, 42 minutes, and 11 seconds to the beginning of the debate (as of the beginning of this comment). Currently, Bobby Jindal is touring the debate stage. The senior advisor to Governor Scott Walker is talking-heading, and looks a little like Will Ferrell crossed with Ron Perlman.

And now we're at 2 hours, 40 minutes, and 27 seconds (I had to look up who played Hell Boy). Woo!
posted by ChuraChura at 12:19 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


What's everyone drinking?

If the Pacific Ocean were entirely made of gin, that would not be enough alcohol to get me drunk enough to watch these debates.
posted by Aizkolari at 12:21 PM on September 16, 2015 [19 favorites]


Let's just PayPal the mod on duty tonight $1 each. They will 100% earn it.
posted by mintcake! at 12:21 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Will there be a FanFare page for this?
posted by kurumi at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I was going to get crazy drunk and a little bit stoned for tonight's debate, then I remembered I have a ticket to see Blue Velvet... I feel like it's pretty much going to be the same experience for me, whether I stay home or go out. Whee!
posted by palomar at 12:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


From the CNN link: Fiorina is the only candidate to move from the bottom six to the top 10 in that post-debate average. Here are the averages for qualifying polls conducted after the August 6 debate and released by September 10: 1) Donald Trump: 27.8 2) Ben Carson: 14.0 3) Jeb Bush: 9.2 4) Ted Cruz: 7.4 5) Scott Walker: 5.6 6) Marco Rubio: 5.4 T-7) Carly Fiorina: 4.4 T-7) Mike Huckabee: 4.4 9) John Kasich: 3.6 10) Rand Paul: 3.2

That means Forina is getting the bump to the adult debate, but Rand is not getting relegated to the kiddie table? So they're having a 11 person debate of the "top 10" polling candidates...just to include the RNC's hand-picked token "See, what War on Women?" novelty? Fine, but shouldn't Rand have had to move down? When Hull City or QPR get bounced out of the Premier League, they don't get to call in a favor to stay at the top level.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm glad I'll have the night off- it'll be interesting to see the debate featuring president-elect Trump and the vice-presidential candidates.
posted by happyroach at 12:36 PM on September 16, 2015


I had heard that it should have been Christie moving down to the kid's table, but they kept him in, based on something or other.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:40 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


...and may his sleep be most unrestful.

Hear, hear.
posted by blucevalo at 12:42 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


a lungful of dragon: Republicans have a real problem with women, and their party needs to cynically prop her up to try to spackle over their image problem.

The Fiscal Times (the Fiorina link above the break) thinks she was included in the prime-time debate as someone who might actually go after Trump (or perhaps another woman for him to belittle, except she's a GOP candidate with solid enough polling numbers to actually meet the revised thresholds to include her in the debate tonight).


aka burlap: What's everyone drinking?

If I didn't have to be a responsible parent-type adult, I might open that bottle of egg nog and eat too many biscochitos (Costco had both, and I could not turn them away).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Gin ocean?
posted by rustcrumb at 12:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


What's everyone drinking?

Single malt scotch out of an endangered tiger's bladder.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


You couldn't pay me to watch this, but if you did, then you'd have to include a bottle of Buffalo Trace, mid shelf sweet vermouth, and moonshine cherries.
posted by codacorolla at 12:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah last debate I was prepared for hilarity but really I just died a little
posted by angrycat at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


I agree with Pierce's prediction that everyone will howl appeasement about the successful nuclear negotiation with Iran, and little note that Reagan himself sold advanced weapons to Iran.

Even Saint Reagan said "trust, but verify" which as I understand it is exactly what the Iran deal calls for. And Reagan said it about the Soviet Union, a.k.a. the "Evil Empire," a.k.a. a nation that actually had thousands of nuclear weapons (not merely the capability to maybe someday make one if left unchecked).
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


> National treasure Charles Pierce reminds us* that All of These Republican Candidates Are Horrible.

The worst he can say about Kasich is that he is "unloved by the fans of all these other clucks"? Doesn't seem so bad by comparison, I guess.
posted by noneuclidean at 1:00 PM on September 16, 2015


What's everyone drinking?

Puréed bootstraps.
posted by Palindromedary at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


Drinking Game Rule: If a Candidate expresses support for Kim Davis, drink four drinks in a row while trying to stop everyone else from having a drink.
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [75 favorites]


What's everyone drinking?

The thawed-from-cryogenic-storage tears of Don Regan.
posted by blucevalo at 1:16 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The only drinking game rule is that if any candidate makes what sounds like a thoughtful point, stop. You've had too much.
posted by ckape at 1:19 PM on September 16, 2015 [17 favorites]


angrycat: Yeah last debate I was prepared for hilarity but really I just died a little

Earlier today, I was thinking of political slogans when I saw the faces of theater masks of Thalia and Melpomene, and I thought "Trump/Anyone: laugh now, cry later" could be fitting. I think I should broaden that slogan to cover "GOP/GOP," because I'm not really sure anyone is a great Worst Case Scenario candidate from the GOP.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Weird choice by CNN to invite Ahmed's teacher to the debate, but apparently she's already polling in 3rd for the nomination so I guess rules are rules.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:48 PM on September 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


What's everyone drinking?

the blood of the proletariat
posted by poffin boffin at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


That means Forina is getting the bump to the adult debate, but Rand is not getting relegated to the kiddie table? So they're having a 11 person debate of the "top 10" polling candidates...just to include the RNC's hand-picked token "See, what War on Women?" novelty? Fine, but shouldn't Rand have had to move down?

The actual rule is top 10 in average polling over the last month OR top 10 in average polling over the last two months. I assume Rand meets the second case, while Fiorina meets the first.

They have both criteria because they changed them only on September 2nd, and people would have screamed bloody murder if new arbitrary criteria excluded someone.
posted by smackfu at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2015


So, no pickers for my Battle Royale inspired "debate" format?

My talents are being wasted, people.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2015


(Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders seems to be pulling Hillary Clinton to the left -- and good on him for doing so -- but despite the so-called "liberal media"'s obsession with finding phony "balance," none of his positions are all that radical. Mostly bog-standard 1970s Democrat stuff. Which, come to think of it, is farther to the left these days...)

And this is so goddamn important. It really is, because it clarifies everything. You don't compare a Democrat today to a Republican today. You compare a Democrat today to a Democrat 40 years ago. Once you do that, it's not so hard to choose a nominee is it?
posted by Beholder at 2:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Noooooo don't let Kasich not being Trump fool you into thinking he is a moderate, good guy. He would have loved to follow Scott Walker into the anti-union hell of Wisconsin, but Ohio just barely didn't let that happen. Under Kasich's governorship, Ohio has passed a truly amazing set of restrictions on abortion. He has done an amazing amount of damage to the state - don't be tricked!
posted by ChuraChura at 2:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm watching here again: http://www.livenewschat.eu/the-republican-debates-live-stream/

Currently interviewing Jerry Brown.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah last debate I was prepared for hilarity but really I just died a little

Watch it alongside everyone here. We can all die a little bit together.

We met as soul mates
On Mefi's island
We left as inmates
From an asylum
And we had snark
As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho
To watch the debates

We had cameras
To shoot the hot takes
We passed the taglines
And ate our beanplates
And there was snark
Much snark at night
And we held on to each other
Like durfers to hurfers
We promised our spouses we'd write
And we'd all go down together
We said we'd all go down together
Yes we would all go down together
posted by nubs at 2:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]


The only thing from this clowncar-catastrophe I'm going to watch is the Bad Lip Reading version which hopefully will arrive soon.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


It was interesting to check out the 404 pages in that Atlantic article, tho.

* Jim Gilmore's has a typo! "We're sorry, but the page you were looking for does not exits."
* I am super-disappoint that Trump's is so boring.
* Walker's & Jeb(!)'s are surprisingly not-terrible.
* And Bernie's is kind of adorably earnest.
posted by epersonae at 3:11 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


you know what, I think that it is still a civic duty to listen to these awful people be awful. there's like, what, a 50% chance one of them will be president. so I'll listen, but I do not promise to be sober, nor can I promise to not throw up in my mouth
posted by angrycat at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


"But Ana", Anderson Cooper says to Ana Navarro, but she's wearing a yellow shirt and it sounded like "banana" and oh man this cold is really gonna make this weird for me isn't it
posted by cortex at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Hey! BBC America is running a Dr. Who marathon tonight!
posted by Thorzdad at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


Let's call this debate "Debate A", and the next debate, "Debate 1". Or else Lindsey Graham's lip will quiver.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:16 PM on September 16, 2015


Something is going terribly wrong with the CNN stream I'm watching, turning it into a Burroughsian cut up. I'm not sure it's worse, exactly.
posted by cortex at 3:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I hope that polite scattered applause for his twinkies line was everything Bobby Jindal had hoped for.
posted by cortex at 3:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rick Santorum thinks the name we should be shouting is [a long sentence that is not in fact a name]. Lindsay Graham wants to be president of the military. Hugh Hewitt wants to know why Gov. Pataki is such an oath-breaker. Nobody wants to talk about Donald Trump, every question keeps being about Donald Trump.
posted by cortex at 3:33 PM on September 16, 2015


From CNN's Dylan Byers: The crowd:

The crowd for the undercard debate is radically different from the crowds in Cleveland, and pretty much what you'd expect from a Reagan Library function: largely old, white and wealthy.

What that means for the candidates: no hooting and hollering, no cat calls, sighs rather than boos and light applause rather than raucous thunder.

posted by Roger Dodger at 3:38 PM on September 16, 2015


Nobody wants to talk about Donald Trump, every question keeps being about Donald Trump.

When Poochie's not around the other characters should be asking, "Where's Poochie?"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:40 PM on September 16, 2015 [27 favorites]


Graham: "There are no Democrats here tonight. If you're a Democrat, raise your hand. Oh, uh, hello, welcome."
posted by cortex at 3:41 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


I like to close my eyes when Graham speaks and pretend it is Huckleberry Hound talking.
posted by Justinian at 3:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The fuck is Pataki doing there?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:45 PM on September 16, 2015


Asking himself that same question, probably.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh boy, here comes an Ahmed question. But apparently just as a random Today In The News segue to a question about Muslims and assimilation. I'll...honestly be happier if everybody just glosses over it to complain about Obama than actually find a way to take a shit on this kid.
posted by cortex at 3:52 PM on September 16, 2015


What's everyone drinking?


A Single Plum, Floating in Perfume, Served in a Man's Hat.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


What's everyone drinking?

You really do not want to know.
posted by Wordshore at 3:52 PM on September 16, 2015


Rum, Caballero, and Canadian brandy, and pinto bean dip and guacamole for snacking. All entered the US legally.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:58 PM on September 16, 2015


GOP 2016: All Muslim children are terrorists coming to steal our Christian virtue.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Asked a question about Ahmed, Jindal pivoted into gay marriage.... somehow... whattttt

Jindal: " "we don't discriminate against anyone based on their color or creed... we're at war with Radical Islam. I'm glad that police are careful and worried about security issues. The real discrimination is against Christians who believe that traditional marriage is between a man and a woman."

WTF
posted by naju at 3:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


The man's self-hatred as a person of color is simply astonishing.
posted by naju at 4:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


So uh, who wants to tell him that Islam is a 'creed'?

It's OK though Bobby, we understand English is your second language.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:03 PM on September 16, 2015


Stay tuned for the A-List debate. Ben Carson has him beat.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:04 PM on September 16, 2015


BENGHAZIIIIIII
posted by cortex at 4:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Still non of them been asked about, or stated their position on, the ethics of spider-kitten cross breeding, yet?
posted by Wordshore at 4:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


BEN CASEY!
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2015


Handling Putin next.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:24 PM on September 16, 2015


Caught a minute of the kids' table debate at the corner store, where Jindal called for justices who would ignore the supremacy clause and gave Graham the chance to look like the sage, staid moderate no one is looking for right now.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:26 PM on September 16, 2015


Jindal might have well been asked he'd rather see the Mets or the Yankees win the World Series. His(and most of his buddies) canned response would be the same. Or if he says GIF with an hard or a soft G. Serif or Sans-Serif. Toilet paper over or under.
posted by lmfsilva at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2015


I'm wondering after this race finishes off Jindal's chances at the presidency for good, if the GOP will try to get a twofer candidate in 2020 with Nikki Haley and/or Mia Love.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:32 PM on September 16, 2015


Did someone spike the punch in the CNN green room? Apparently Wolf Blitzer is having visions of Nancy Reagans dancing in his head.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jindal might think so, he's definitely debating like a man who sees this as his last chance. He's really doubling down on flipping the bird to moderation and banking hard right.
posted by Panjandrum at 4:36 PM on September 16, 2015


I'd actually feel a little bad for Santorum if he weren't a horrible human being.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:47 PM on September 16, 2015


"...brought to you by Pawn Sacrifice"???
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:48 PM on September 16, 2015


What's everyone drinking?

Unregulated, untaxed gin.

At least the guy said it was gin, this has a sweeter, more antifreeze-y taste.
posted by ckape at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'd actually feel a little bad for Santorum if he weren't a horrible human being.

"Human being"'s giving Santorum more credit than I'm willing to.
posted by delfin at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2015


In summary:

SANTORUM: will appoint God Almighty as his chief of staff
GRAHAM: a sensible, cool-headed, reach-across-the-aisle big-picture pragmatist who will personally murder every member of ISIS with his bare hands.
PATAKI: really hoping he can just sort of skip to the general election part
JINDAL: was Bobby Jindal for a solid hour and a half, god help him
posted by cortex at 4:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [35 favorites]


It's painful watching these CNN talking heads trying to talk seriously about these idiots.
posted by octothorpe at 4:56 PM on September 16, 2015


My advice is watch the Pirate game and just leave this tab open.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am more and more convinced that no Republican actually wants to be president. Mitt Romney and John McCain really wanted to be president this particular election. I don't think any of these guys do. Indeed, I think the person who is actually nominated will shit him (or her) self.

Even Bush and Walker seem half-hearted.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


octothorpe - I'm not sure what's worse, that or the Hardball crew the other night absolutely having a gleeful ball talking about Trump. They were having so, so, so much fun, and not in a good way.
posted by shortfuse at 5:02 PM on September 16, 2015


TIL that Ronald Reagan never sold weapons to Iran or let Russia control Ukraine.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I really feel like only 4 was way too few, for the next debate, can we get a full slate of 10 for the undercard?

How about, in no particular order, a hologram of Actual Reagan, Ted Nugent, Mitch Daniels wearing a Tim Palawenty mask, Tim Palawenty wearing a Mitch Daniels mask, Jimmy McMillan and just a machine gun set up behind a podium with a printed copy of the entire US tax code and IRS regulations where the candidates can walk over at any time to go ham on if they're not getting called on enough.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


In summary:


Also, they respect the Dems for fighting for what they believe in, aren't congressional Reps the worst?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:05 PM on September 16, 2015


Okay, my husband is wisely laying off the bourbon this time around. I don't think I'd ever seen him as drunk as he was during the first debate. He kept alternating between hysterical laughter and rage-drinking.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:05 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Red wine open. Should I also take a Viagra?
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:05 PM on September 16, 2015


MetaFilter: really hoping [they] can just sort of skip to the general election part
posted by epersonae at 5:06 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


The moderator notes that Rick Santorum is the only one of the four candidates on the stage of the early debate who supports increasing the federal minimum wage, and Santorum passionately defends his position on that issue, calling for more "income support" for "American workers."

Santorum reminds me of Liz Lemon's terrible boyfriend, Dennis Duffy (the beeper salesman). There's an episode of 30 Rock where he's asked what his politics are, and he answers, in his smarmy, sleazy tone: "Social conservative, fiscal liberal."
posted by John Cohen at 5:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


How did Reagan get to take the jet home when he retired?
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


OMG CNN online just aired an ad for Amazon's The Man in the High Castle during the break. Just thank your Fuhrer.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


Awesome ad placement for Man in the High Castle...
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


*RUBS HANDS TOGETHER*
posted by triggerfinger at 5:10 PM on September 16, 2015


I kind of want Harrison Ford to bust in and go all Air Force One on everybody.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:11 PM on September 16, 2015


Rand Paul! I totally forgot about him.
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on September 16, 2015


And what's with the podiums? Did they contract with a makerspace that only had an acrylic laser cutter?
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]




I really feel like only 4 was way too few, for the next debate, can we get a full slate of 10 for the undercard?

Now that you say that it would have made more sense to have the top 4 duke it out and the bottom 10 fight for scraps
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


classy of Huckabee to mock Bernie right out of the gate without a question or anything
posted by Countess Elena at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2015


I'd like Harrison Ford to bust in and open the Lost Ark on everybody.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


I pity the fool who compares Donald Trump to Mr. T.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rubio surprisingly excited to keep associating himself with bottles of water.
posted by cortex at 5:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Randy's an eye surgeon?
posted by box at 5:15 PM on September 16, 2015


Huck was trying to take the high road. Hit Bernie and Hillary and said nice things about the other R's, even "Mr. T." Won't last I'm sure.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:15 PM on September 16, 2015


Doctors get engineers' disease as bad as they do; it's such a shame to see a talented man doing what Dr. Carson's doing right now
posted by Countess Elena at 5:15 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Carson sounds like he's gotten in to Perry's back meds. That was a "book report for book I didn't read" level of energy.
posted by cortex at 5:16 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jeb I'm a committed Zzzzzzzz
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:16 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does Rubio ever not look uncomfortable?
posted by octothorpe at 5:17 PM on September 16, 2015


Secretary to CEO to...
posted by Roger Dodger at 5:17 PM on September 16, 2015


...to the girl who said "You're Fired!" 30,000 times!
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:18 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


they should rename the Peter Principle... the Fiorina Principle
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:18 PM on September 16, 2015


I don't like Jeb but I love his voice. So deep and smooth. I want him to say, "We'll leave the light on for you"
posted by riruro at 5:18 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


GUYS, GUYS, RONALD REAGAN'S PLANE CONVEYS MAGICAL LEADERSHIP ABILITIES!
posted by Diagonalize at 5:18 PM on September 16, 2015


"Shining city on the hill" *takes first shot*
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:18 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"and I want a shot at his VP ticket"
posted by Countess Elena at 5:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean, say what you will about Reagan, at least his shtick was his own. This constant humping of his corpse is pathetic.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Could "Rand Paul doesn't even belong on this stage" be the only thing I will agree with Trump on all night?
posted by Justinian at 5:21 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Non sequitur, sophomoric? Uh-oh.
posted by box at 5:21 PM on September 16, 2015


Reagan was an actor whose greatest roles were against the stump of his leg and a monkey.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:21 PM on September 16, 2015


I have lived in Virginia for 41 of my 44 years. I live in the same city as the guy, and even I forgot until now that Jim Gilmore is running.
posted by 4ster at 5:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


OK, my brain is already hurting me for watching this. I'm out.
posted by octothorpe at 5:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Trump talking about being respected -- you know who bangs on about being respected? Gangsters. Gangsters and kids who want to be them.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Trump is an embarrassing blowhard. Any self-respecting Republican should be ashamed to be associated with a party where he can get 40% of the vote.
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Donny, you know that's not nice. Now use your big boy words and apologize!"
posted by Diagonalize at 5:23 PM on September 16, 2015


Trump: I've never actually gone into detail about how short and dumb looking Rand Paul is.
posted by cortex at 5:24 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Could "Rand Paul doesn't even belong on this stage" be the only thing I will agree with Trump on all night?

THANK YOU TRUMP, that's what I said earlier. Rand Paul is a joke even on this jokers stage, he should've been down there with Graham and Santorum.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:24 PM on September 16, 2015


Trump has a pretty good smug bulldog look.

Oh, and the backstory on Donald Trump's four bankruptcies.

"We don't need an apprentice in the White House." Zing!
posted by filthy light thief at 5:25 PM on September 16, 2015


so basically my goal for America is to make a shitload of money and jet
posted by theodolite at 5:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Great Jeb laugh at 'people in business are impressed.'
posted by box at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2015


"And my question for the next candidate: what do *you* think about Donald Trump?"
"Mr. Trump -- your response?"
posted by uosuaq at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Okay, I know it's early, but it seems like Trump's basic strategy for winning arguments seems to be wiping his ass with hundred dollar bills and then stuffing them into his opponents' mouths.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


Trump has a pretty good smug bulldog look.

So did Tony Soprano.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2015


Randy's an eye surgeon?

He's a self-certified ophthalmologist.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


"Turn it off."

Done!
posted by chortly at 5:27 PM on September 16, 2015


Man, I'm already getting sick of that guy in the gray suit behind the moderator.
posted by box at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2015


Thank God to Kasich for calling out CNN.
posted by riruro at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2015


Somehow, this "A said this thing, what do you think B?" format feels like The Dating Game. "Bachelor B, how would you handle ISIS?"
posted by filthy light thief at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm no fan of Rand Paul but he really is a surgeon. Or at least he does perform surgeries, apparently successfully.
posted by Justinian at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Okay, I know it's early, but it seems like Trump's basic strategy for winning arguments seems to be wiping his ass with hundred dollar bills and then stuffing them into his opponents' mouths.

It works because that's what they were all doing before he came on the scene, groveling for shitstained $100s from Sheldon Adelson and the Kochs, Trump is cutting out the middle man and running as an unabashed oligarch + GOP Daddy in one man. He doesn't need the money, he has it already and the hate-radio persona that the base craves on top. He's winning this.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


I'm no fan of Rand Paul but he really is a surgeon. Or at least he does perform surgeries, apparently successfully.

That what makes him apparently not knowing anything about women's health so nuts.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The moderation seems to be setting it up as a series of directed confrontations, which is almost like they are following up Colbert's Hunger Games take on it.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


"There's been a lot of ad hominem. It's important to get to the issues." Some deserved applause there. This is a sham of a debate so far. Much more about in-fighting and sensational spectacle than anything voters can actually use.
posted by naju at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2015


Rand has an M.D. from Duke.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2015


Politicians aren't bad people. CEO's who are brought in to fire 30,000 people, on the other hand...
posted by Diagonalize at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The border's been unsecure since the Reagan years.
posted by box at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2015


And still, no issues.
posted by Roger Dodger at 5:32 PM on September 16, 2015


He knows a guy who knows a guy
posted by Countess Elena at 5:32 PM on September 16, 2015


These questions are all a weird combination of Buzzfeed listicles and bitter ex-lover.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:32 PM on September 16, 2015


"Turn it off."

Done!


Yeah, I'm sorry everyone. I don't think there's much gained here that couldn't be gleaned tomorrow from recaps and fact-checking articles.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:33 PM on September 16, 2015


I turned down $5M from somebody... ?
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:33 PM on September 16, 2015


"Last week I turned down 5 million dollars from... somebody." lolsobbing
posted by naju at 5:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is a sham of a debate so far. Much more about in-fighting and sensational spectacle than anything voters can actually use.

I'm not sure anything else could happen when you put eleven people on stage like CNN has.
posted by xbonesgt at 5:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I'm sorry everyone. I don't think there's much gained here that couldn't be gleaned tomorrow from recaps and fact-checking articles.

But... think of all the drinking you're missing out on. It makes this much more bearable.
posted by Justinian at 5:35 PM on September 16, 2015


I think we've all turned down $5MM from someone at one point or another.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:35 PM on September 16, 2015


This is really trying to fill the hole that was left when Celebrity Death Match went off the air.
posted by gatorae at 5:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Trump talking about how he would get along better with China... what. Has he even heard himself?
posted by thefoxgod at 5:37 PM on September 16, 2015


Donald & Vladimir will get along just fine, because.
posted by wallabear at 5:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


At least Trump won't look into Putin's soul, just his wallet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:38 PM on September 16, 2015


Ronald Reagan is a bad actor.
posted by box at 5:38 PM on September 16, 2015


What the hell is the point of rebuilding the sixth fleet? Our navy is already more powerful than every other navy on the planet combined. Our navy plus the navies of our allies is an order of magnitude more powerful than the rest of the world's navies combined.
posted by Justinian at 5:39 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jesus, this is like watching your retired car salesman uncle drunkenly rant at Thanksgiving when your pretentious poli-sci major cousin tries to engage him in a philosophical debate, and your disapproving aunt is off to the side grinding her teeth down to diamond nubs.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:39 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Trump talking about how he would get along better with China... what.

Donald Trump loves China.
posted by cortex at 5:40 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Ted Cruz is going all black helicopter now.
posted by Justinian at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2015


The Navy doesn't want to rebuild the fleet. Ships are sitting ducks against missiles in modern warfare. The Navy wants to be a remote platform for air support from far away.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I would like them to ask Trump a followup question on how well he'll get along with the head of Mexico.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2015


Doctors get engineers' disease as bad as they do; it's such a shame to see a talented man doing what Dr. Carson's doing right now

Politics is full of extremely educated people saying dumb things. Bobby J's got an impressive resume too.
posted by atoxyl at 5:42 PM on September 16, 2015


OK I'm convinced Fiorina is there to shoot an arrow into the power generator in the ceiling. Half the other candidates are in on the plan.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:42 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


More blank checks for defense because god knows we don't spend enough on defense.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:43 PM on September 16, 2015


You know your party is in the shitter when Rand Paul is the voice of reason. He's being reasonable about the Iran deal. How can this be?
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Uh-oh Rand is trying to be reasonable, he's toast now.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rand Paul breaks from the pack by saying diplomacy not totally useless!
posted by thefoxgod at 5:44 PM on September 16, 2015


Somebody needs to break from the pack. The pack is a mess of snarling dogs
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:45 PM on September 16, 2015


If we're going to send a signal to China, it should be the Bat-Signal.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Was that a 600 ship fleet reference? Like Reagan dragged WW2 battleships out of mothballs and spent a kajallion dollars to retrofit them before re-retiring them two years later because they were FIFTY year out of date? Fiscal responsibility!
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Poor Huck. Somebody had to be 11th...
posted by wallabear at 5:46 PM on September 16, 2015


Huckabee pulls the apocalypse card in 3..2..1..done.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:46 PM on September 16, 2015


I wonder how Huck would react if we sent him a clock.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


HOLY SHIT Did Bush just say we should BOMB CHINA???
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:47 PM on September 16, 2015


I like that idea Diagonalize but I think it would go right over his head.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 PM on September 16, 2015


Oh crap Rand is doing the rational thing again.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:49 PM on September 16, 2015


That what makes him apparently not knowing anything about women's health so nuts.

Who says he doesn't know? He doesn't care...
posted by atoxyl at 5:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


WTF is up with Cruz staring into the camera?
posted by wallabear at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2015


Somewhere in the television audience, an editorial cartoonist's heart is breaking in real time at the way that line bombed.
posted by cortex at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2015


Ted Cruz reads political cartoons. It's one more reason to hate him.
posted by riruro at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2015


biscochitos (Costco had both

Costco sells biscochitos?

...

I am conflicted.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:52 PM on September 16, 2015


To be fair, foreign policy is one of those areas where Rand is usually more rational (same with domestic security / spying stuff). Its just a ton of other stuff where he goes off the rails.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Cruz can't be let anywhere near the presidency.
posted by Talez at 5:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's like watching kids fight over a piñata stick.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Rubio: The US military is not built for pinprick attacks.

So he's going to curtail the drone war?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:53 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


OH KIMMEE IS UP
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:53 PM on September 16, 2015


Honey, calm down, I hear some people clapping, I—
"He didn't tell it right!"
Well, maybe he just didn't really understand the—
"And anyway it's a visual medium!"
posted by cortex at 5:53 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Ted Cruz is just straight up scary, imo.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


NO HUCKABEE. NO FUCK YOU NO. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE NEED TO REWRITE THE 14TH FUCKING AMENDMENT WITH "NO REALLY THIS TIME THEY'RE FUCKING EQUAL". YOU TALK ABOUT 9TH GRADE CIVICS. DID YOU EVEN FUCKING LISTEN?!?
posted by Talez at 5:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [22 favorites]


Wow Huck really needs to retake Civics himself
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


DemocRAT county clerk

Even agreeing with her he can't help it
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:55 PM on September 16, 2015


JUDICIAL TYRANNY FUCK YOU ASSHOLE. IT'S STANDING UP TO TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY YOU SHITHEEL.

FIRST FUCKING AMENDMENT SHE'S THE FUCKING STATE.

His smug fucking mug. Shut the fuck you up you fucking shitheel.
posted by Talez at 5:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Just about every single thing Huckabee said is downright horrifying. What the ever-loving hell!
posted by Diagonalize at 5:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yes, he is convinced that the Supreme Court just "Made up this ruling" because...big Gay Money, I guess
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huckabee: Thank your Fuhrer. Coming from Amazon.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2015


I can't fucking watch it. It's too fucking stupid. My head is exploding and it's keeping every piece of restraint I have to stop blood from gushing out my ears.
posted by Talez at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Why does someone not just ask Huckabee straight out about the dog-crime-covering-up allegations. That sanctimonous face of his -- oh, I would die happy.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huckabee is just fundraising. He knows he doesn't have any chance, just like last time around, so he says whatever gets the base worked up.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Much more about in-fighting and sensational spectacle than anything voters can actually use.
Sensational spectacle brings in the spectators. To the hundreds-of-comments threads.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Ongoing criminal enterprise.
posted by box at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015


Shorter Chris Christie: NEW JEEEEERRRRRSSSSSEEEEYYYY
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


krinklyfig: Costco sells biscochitos?
...
I am conflicted.


I bought almost 3lb of biscochitos, made in ABQ. I work in Santa Fe - memail me and please come and take some from me. I should not eat them all.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Aaaand here comes the Planned Parenthood bullshit.
posted by uosuaq at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015


Surrendering to "The Barack Obama"?

Like he is some sort of mythical beast?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ugh, okay, I think I should probably just go write a check to Planned Parenthood for even listening to these guys.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [16 favorites]


Watching these debates has to be bad for my health, at some point I'm gonna roll my eyes so hard they get stuck.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:00 PM on September 16, 2015


"We are threatened with the Federal Government taking our Medicaid money away"
John Kasich, the Reasonable One (tm)

I am switching to cough syrup.
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [18 favorites]


The worse they try to make abortion sound, the stronger I support it. "Systematic murder of children in the womb! WOO HOO"
posted by Countess Elena at 6:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [26 favorites]


Christie's inner bully is coming out
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:01 PM on September 16, 2015


Christie is trying to out-angry Trump.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:01 PM on September 16, 2015


still ain't working on me, Miz Carly
posted by Countess Elena at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2015


There's 2 more hours of this.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Carly has been reading some rad science fiction
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Carly is doing a really good job.
posted by aka burlap at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2015


Fiorina is also trying to out-angry Trump. And maybe Christie.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


Do you think they really are convinced that PP clinics around the US are ripping babies out of women, cutting up the bodies and selling them for something (evil science experiments) or is this just outraged bullshit for the masses?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wait that wasn't a real video was it? A beating heart, moving fetus on video being harvested?
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


Gorram it. I can't get the stream going.
posted by nubs at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


Like I feel like I would've heard about that one....
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


She's is coming off very smooth.
posted by aka burlap at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


Wow abortion really has them all Hulking out
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:03 PM on September 16, 2015


I will take care of women.
posted by box at 6:04 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well he will if they're beautiful and they put out, I'm sure.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:05 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


What Im taking away right now is there is absolutely going to be a government shutdown over abortion, possibly longer than the last one,as Boehner will know next time he passes a budget with Democratic votes will be his last.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:05 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


In fairness, I do think North Korea is more likely to come after my womb in a murderous froth than Planned Parenthood.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:05 PM on September 16, 2015




Yeah I'm having a lot of trouble with my stream as well.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:06 PM on September 16, 2015


I would guess just put out, in a pinch.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:06 PM on September 16, 2015


Oh, Donald, you just don't get it.
posted by gatorae at 6:07 PM on September 16, 2015


In my case, the streaming problem appears to be because I'm a dirty foreigner. And its not worth figuring out how to get around that for this.
posted by nubs at 6:07 PM on September 16, 2015


Well Fiorina just knocked Mr. T out of the park.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


youtube stream
posted by phoque at 6:08 PM on September 16, 2015


Fuck Trump. Calling someone "beautiful" is as damaging as calling her ugly.

As Media Coverage Of A Female Candidate’s Appearance Go Up, Her Chances Of Winning Go Down
posted by triggerfinger at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well, good on her for that at least. I mean, Christ, what an asshole.
posted by wallabear at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2015


This is a crazy pants debate. CNN seems to be throwing red meat at the candidates to induce snarling and fighting amongst themselves. What is most striking is that The Trump is not getting star treatment the way he did in the FOX debate. Here he is getting equal time.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Combustible?" Are they going to set the candidates on fire next? Oh please say yes!
posted by Diagonalize at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Guys like that use appearance compliments as Spackle when they speak to women who are angry with them.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:11 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The biggest, most luxurious wall...
posted by krinklyfig at 6:11 PM on September 16, 2015


Bad Dudes? Dragon Ninja.
posted by box at 6:11 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been mentioned....There's a guy behind Jake Tapper who has a tie on that looks vaguely Stars and Bars-esque.
posted by mostly vowels at 6:11 PM on September 16, 2015


A wall. With heart.
posted by box at 6:12 PM on September 16, 2015


Thanks phoque!
posted by nubs at 6:12 PM on September 16, 2015


It's like a J.G. Ballard story where you watch cars crash into one another again and again from every conceivable angle.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Maybe we could build a wall with obsolete electronics. Just think, finally a use for all those AOL installation CDs!
posted by Diagonalize at 6:13 PM on September 16, 2015


Actually we could build the wall out of AOL installation CD's.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:15 PM on September 16, 2015


Carson's credibility suddenly draining at a rapid clip.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:15 PM on September 16, 2015


That's actually what I had in mind. Miles and miles of them! You could see it from space!
posted by Diagonalize at 6:15 PM on September 16, 2015


Correction: plan is to deter crossing of the border with the use of droning GOP candidates.
posted by cortex at 6:16 PM on September 16, 2015


Wait wait wait... isn't this "apologize to my wife right now" stuff straight out of House of Cards?
posted by sparklemotion at 6:16 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Jeb has no folksy charm
posted by angrycat at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Again with the patented "(yeah I know some shitty thing about this female but) She's a great person, she's lovely. I don't know your wife but she's great."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2015


I feel like Trump is half a step away from saying, "Yeah, I'll apologize to your wife when I see her later tonight."
posted by Diagonalize at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [42 favorites]


Jeb has no folksy charm

FTFY
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:18 PM on September 16, 2015


Jeb wrote a book!
posted by nubs at 6:18 PM on September 16, 2015


That was certainly what it seemed like he was implying. "I hear your wife is great [in bed]"
posted by naju at 6:18 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The moderators seem really committed to their Hunger Games matchup programme.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:19 PM on September 16, 2015


Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:19 PM on September 16, 2015


The basement is flooding with the tears of Reagan's jet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:20 PM on September 16, 2015


"Goodies," Jesus Christ
posted by Countess Elena at 6:21 PM on September 16, 2015


The spigot that dispenses all the goodies.
posted by box at 6:21 PM on September 16, 2015


It's always so annoying hearing Rubio give his "it was ok when my granddad immigrated, but not anymore"
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


That chalk-stripe suit is also a daring choice.
posted by box at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2015


Rank spigotry.
posted by cortex at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


My over/under on how many lemons Ted Cruz has swallowed is 8.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Thank you Senator..." Cruz shuts off in mid-sentence. Lightweight player on this stage.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:23 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"...shoulder to shoulder with Jeff Sessions..." pretty much says it all.
posted by wallabear at 6:24 PM on September 16, 2015


man though it boggles the mind that there might exist people who see this spectacle as anything but a grim horror.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:24 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


it's like they're talking about walls to keep zombies out except for some zombie slaves who farm for six months
posted by angrycat at 6:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Farmers! What! Farmers! What! I'm ready!
posted by box at 6:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ted Cruz: "That's a great question, let me ignore it and pivot to talk about how everyone else here is too nice to filthy immigrants."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Aaand, here comes birthright citizenship.
posted by box at 6:26 PM on September 16, 2015


According to legal scholars the Constitution is wrong?
posted by gatorae at 6:26 PM on September 16, 2015


Why do people think illegal immigrants get free everything? I have no idea where this comes from or how to fact check it.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


We'll see if Rand brings the jus soli.
posted by box at 6:26 PM on September 16, 2015


Taking care of babies? What are we, stupid losers? Stupid baby-loving dummies?
posted by cortex at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Er, in what America do we take care of anyone's baby for 85 years? Certainly not one run by Republicans...
posted by thefoxgod at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


a lot of great legal scholars, yeah
posted by angrycat at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015


Well Trump can join Huck in that Civics course.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mr. Trump, you realize they don't usually stay babies for that entire period of time, right?
posted by Diagonalize at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


and youtube feed dies because cnn own's the rights to public officials speaking ...
posted by phoque at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015


Immigrants stole my lunch money.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015


Nothing makes me madder than 85 year old babies!
posted by krinklyfig at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Could've chosen anything, chose nothing? I've totally used that language when firing people.
posted by box at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015


...sorry I'm late guys, it was my night to water the 85 year old babies.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Holy shit Fiorina knows how constitutional amendments work.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I've seen it from both sides..." I keep hearing this in Shawn Spencer's voice from Psych.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:30 PM on September 16, 2015


Ooh, nailing Carly on HP!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:30 PM on September 16, 2015


"And my bank account looks fantastic!"
posted by Diagonalize at 6:31 PM on September 16, 2015


"Doubled the size of the company."

Acquisitions don't count Carly!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


First hour: The US is horrible, everything sucks, Democrats killed all the babies

Second hour: Everything here is so awesome, there's so many jobs but immigrants are coming to take them all and we have to build a wall
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


No Benghazi yet?
posted by mostly vowels at 6:32 PM on September 16, 2015


Gotta agree with the Donald here, the touchpad on my new HP laptop fucking sucks.
posted by wallabear at 6:32 PM on September 16, 2015


Trump has an unclear pronoun issue
posted by angrycat at 6:33 PM on September 16, 2015


Third hour will be a free form jazz odyssey.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:33 PM on September 16, 2015 [27 favorites]


Okay, I'm pretty sure it's called the Yale School of Management, and I'm also pretty sure that Jeffrey Sonnenfeld isn't the dean.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:34 PM on September 16, 2015


First hour: The US is horrible, everything sucks, Democrats killed all the babies

Ah, thats why we don't have any 85 year old babies now. And if we don't get rid of the 14th amendment, they will repopulate.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:34 PM on September 16, 2015


The buck stops at Atlantic City
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:34 PM on September 16, 2015


CHRISTIE RIPS UP PODIUM, DROPS MIC
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


jazz odyssey
posted by cortex at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Someone needs to say "Cthulhu". Then his name "will be invoked" like Christie and he can rise up and give his thoughts on immigration.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Shitty businessperson vs. shitty businessperson!
posted by charred husk at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2015


holy shit, I just agreed with Donald Trump.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2015


Not to be horribly flippant, but did Dr Carson really suggest that immigrants vying for citizenship work the fields to prove their worth?
posted by jacy at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


OOOOH Carly brings out the Ice-9 on Christie
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, Barack and Hillary have singlehandedly destroyed the middle-class. THANKS OBILLARY
posted by wallabear at 6:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Does Kasich have to pee? He's sure squirming a lot.
posted by noneuclidean at 6:36 PM on September 16, 2015


Just remember, stopped clock is right twice a day but clock that runs backward is right four times a day.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


holy shit, I just agreed with Donald Trump.

Look away from the light! Look away! It's a trap!
posted by krinklyfig at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2015


Third hour will be a free form jazz odyssey.

Wait I thought the third block was the swimsuit contest?
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:38 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


god how is Huckabee on that stage
posted by angrycat at 6:38 PM on September 16, 2015


I hope the plane wins the nomination
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:38 PM on September 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


Just remember, stopped clock is right twice a day but clock that runs backward is right four times a day.

and clock is just another word for bomb. terrorist.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:39 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


How are you guys surviving this? I'm impressed, I didn't last ten minutes.
posted by octothorpe at 6:39 PM on September 16, 2015


god how is Huckabee on that stage

He's takin a gut punch right now.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:40 PM on September 16, 2015




It really is dull. It's not even all that catty.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:40 PM on September 16, 2015


Dr. Huckabee.
posted by box at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2015


Donald is about to say something else you agree with.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Carson's argument relies on example of billionaire paying 10% tax being too darn much?
posted by cortex at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2015


Sometimes a terrifying rollercoaster ride can be fun
posted by wallabear at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2015


I zone out every time Carson talks, is that bad
posted by aka burlap at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2015


How much does he get for that H.R. Block shout out?
posted by Diagonalize at 6:42 PM on September 16, 2015


Donald Trump being the voice of reason(ish) on taxes.......
posted by thefoxgod at 6:42 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


and zombies
posted by wallabear at 6:42 PM on September 16, 2015


He's lost Ken Jennings's vote.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:43 PM on September 16, 2015


Walker hasn't gotten much time at all, surprising
posted by aka burlap at 6:43 PM on September 16, 2015


[not sure if that was poorly timed or not but I'll roll with it]
posted by wallabear at 6:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Two minimum wages.
posted by box at 6:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Walker hasn't gotten much time at all, surprising

well maybe if there were some sort of organized body of debate participants that could fight for equitable treatment for its membership and
posted by cortex at 6:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [48 favorites]


Lindsey Graham wants to firebomb Mecca and he seems more reasonable than some of these chucklefucks.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The real debate winner tonight is Glistening Upper Lip.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


The Ambien is kicking in and I think the Walrus is winning. Flat fish tax ftw.
posted by charred husk at 6:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


I wish this were a karaoke competition instead.
posted by aka burlap at 6:47 PM on September 16, 2015


Kasich needs people to get to know him, so here's a really dull recitation of his resume, so they can know that he's sort of dull and rambly
posted by cortex at 6:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Those of you playing Bingo at home, we have a Benghazi!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Benghazi! *takes shot*
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:48 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Let them learn skills like yacht maintenance and Learjet-polishing.
posted by nom de poop at 6:48 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Crap I'm going to have to open the second bottle of wine.

Magnums, too.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


And now joining us on stage as a guest moderator, a gentleman we've all heard a lot about. Please give a warm welcome to Mr. Benjamin Ghazi!
posted by cortex at 6:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Sorry, that should be BENGHAZI!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I want Hillary to zoom in like Superman and start busting some heads.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would almost love to see the public fight that would happen if they tried to implement one of these gimmick tax plans.
posted by nom de poop at 6:50 PM on September 16, 2015


And now i just took a laxative and Trump is sounding reasonable. Kukumutherfuckingchoo.
posted by charred husk at 6:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Scott Walker talked about people needing education (twice). That's the joke.
posted by dhens at 6:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Arab name Arab name Arab name.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh, here comes the "nuke 'em all" segment
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Please N Korea, bomb the Reagan Library.
posted by nom de poop at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2015


Misspelled....Ahrab Nahm.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2015


Ooh Iran! Reagan library! Mention the Contras Jake! Mention the Contras!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Couple of double-takes there since N. Korea does not in fact have a rocket that can hit us, even with a small warhead.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Iran is now guaranteed to have a nuclear weapon? We really shouldn't have put that in the treaty.
posted by uosuaq at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


M̶a̶r̶s̶h̶a̶ ̶M̶a̶r̶s̶h̶a̶ ̶M̶a̶r̶s̶h̶a̶

Reagan Reagan Reagan!
posted by Windigo at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Trump's policy platform is basically, I told someone important that I'd hire the best people.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Marco is making the perfect argument against himself.
posted by wallabear at 6:57 PM on September 16, 2015


Well that's what Tony Soprano did.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:57 PM on September 16, 2015


Worst. Band. Ever.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:58 PM on September 16, 2015


It was more like Kurdish name, Persian name (neither of which are Arab), but tamaaato tomaaahhhto, right?
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Jeb is toast.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


ah those were the days, back in summer of "nineteen ninety thirty years ago"
posted by pjenks at 7:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm a very militaristic person.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Gregnog
posted by naju at 7:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'll give you twenty five different stories.
posted by box at 7:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Drink for "I'm the only one on the stage..."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:00 PM on September 16, 2015


oh my fucking gawd GWB kept us safe
posted by wallabear at 7:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ooooooo
posted by nom de poop at 7:01 PM on September 16, 2015


Jeb: "then you'll have the floor... what do you guys say in the senate when you're talking and debating... whatever"
posted by pjenks at 7:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


HE KEPT US SAFE
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:01 PM on September 16, 2015


North Korea does have a nuclear warhead that can hit the U.S. West Coast, but it needs to be delivered via boat. With 20 people rowing.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Damn Trump, that was cold.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015


"He kept us safe." Well, except that one time...
posted by gatorae at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [27 favorites]


Forina: If Hilary wanted to wipe a email server, she should've bought an HP and waited till one day after the warranty expired.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [19 favorites]


Bush talking about a lack of understanding about the way the world works is just beyond parody.

That said, he sure as hell just shivved Trump for going after his brother.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


9/11 happened under Clinton?
posted by peeedro at 7:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Republicans believe Bush's first term began on 9-12-2001.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


History doesn't matter to them. Saint Reagan also negotiated nuclear restrictions with the USSR and granted millions of immigrants amnesty, but none of them seem to remember that.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:04 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


We should have stayed in Iraq forever! That was the mistake, not the war. Occupy everyone!
posted by thefoxgod at 7:04 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Captain Shiny Forehead!
posted by aka burlap at 7:05 PM on September 16, 2015


An existential threat.
posted by box at 7:06 PM on September 16, 2015


We should have stayed in Iraq forever! That was the mistake, not the war. Occupy everyone!

Except Wall Street! EXCEPT WALL STREET!
posted by Talez at 7:06 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


Oh, Captain Xanax is back in the mix. Hooray, said no one ever in the history of ever.
posted by Diagonalize at 7:06 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Christie pulls WTC card *shot*
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:07 PM on September 16, 2015


"We should have stayed in Iraq forever! That was the mistake, not the war. Occupy everyone!"

Sue you! Sue everyone! Punitive damages!
posted by Chrysostom at 7:08 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Many wonderful days.
posted by box at 7:08 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


wait, what the hell, did he just suggest Obama would poison him
posted by Countess Elena at 7:08 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


yep pretty much
posted by wallabear at 7:09 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


How awesome would it be if Obama tweeted a dinner invitation to Dr. Carson.
posted by the bricabrac man at 7:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [20 favorites]




We don't have good intelligence.
posted by box at 7:11 PM on September 16, 2015


Well Huckabee doesn't have good intelligence.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Fear and remembrance of fear.
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:12 PM on September 16, 2015


Huckabee has a lot of experience with ignorance.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


wait, what the hell, did he just suggest Obama would poison him

Yep, totally normal thing to happen.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:13 PM on September 16, 2015


Scott Walker attempts a CIC moment, fails.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:14 PM on September 16, 2015


That GIF is amazing.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sure, in campaigns for Roman Emperor.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:14 PM on September 16, 2015


boots on the ground, bootstraps between the sheets
posted by nom de poop at 7:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Walker has tied up the middle manager vote.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:15 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


the Jewish and Christian principles, because we love the Jews and we need them for the apocalypse to begin, c'mere Jews gimme a big old hug
posted by Countess Elena at 7:16 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Why doesn't Kasich just say "crusade"?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Carly is determined to give her book report, dammit.
posted by wallabear at 7:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


But he put Jewish before Christian! HOW DARE HE?!
posted by Diagonalize at 7:17 PM on September 16, 2015


Bush: Ted Cruz can go fuck himself
posted by leotrotsky at 7:18 PM on September 16, 2015


Damn they just need cutoff switches on these mics.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:18 PM on September 16, 2015


Massive quake off the coast of Chile. Guess we know what God thinks of this debate.
posted by lester at 7:19 PM on September 16, 2015


Leotrotsky: Ted Cruz can go fuck himself with some rock ribs.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on September 16, 2015


I think I was wrong. Cruz has swallowed at least 12 lemons.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:19 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Me: Ted Cruz can go fuck himself
posted by wallabear at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


mmmmm.... rock ribs
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2015


Ted Cruz looks like he's wearing his father's suit.
posted by gentian at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, most exciting moment of the debate so far is the tsunami warning I got on my phone.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


A lot of rocked-ribbed motherfuckers in the SCOTUS also-ran circuit, I'll say that.
posted by cortex at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The President Bushes sounds like a terrible band.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:21 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


They used to use "rock-ribbed" for conservatives from New England with good sense, and not a Bible where their brains should be.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:21 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ted Cruz hates Plato and so should you!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:21 PM on September 16, 2015


I didn't realize Roberts had become such a Republican boogeyman.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:21 PM on September 16, 2015


Huckabee wet himself seeing that pitch coming.
posted by nom de poop at 7:22 PM on September 16, 2015


Ted Cruz supports John Roberts? RINO!
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:22 PM on September 16, 2015


And I believe it's Presidents Bush, no?
posted by pjenks at 7:23 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Four words: CHIEF JUSTICE KIM DAVIS
posted by shortfuse at 7:23 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


Constitutional Law Scholar Mike Huckabee: I don't care what Dred Scott says, as President I will free you Dr. Carson!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:24 PM on September 16, 2015 [24 favorites]


I didn't realize Roberts had become such a Republican boogeyman.
posted by Sangermaine


Me either. Talk about two Americas; we have two different cultures now. And honestly it's scary when I get a glimpse into the other one.
posted by gentian at 7:24 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Seen on Twitter: Worth noting here: GOP approval of the Supreme Court is a mighty 18%.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well the theory was that by making the Supreme Court life appointements they'd be immune to crass influence like the polls. Sometimes it meybe even works.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is insane. I can't take it anymore.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Why of course, we must all fear the great liberal philosopher-king John Roberts.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]


WEEEEEEEEED
posted by cortex at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey Rand Paul gets his chance to be reasonable again.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


People on the Internet want to ask about pot
posted by leotrotsky at 7:29 PM on September 16, 2015


OMG JEB!
posted by wallabear at 7:29 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


But did any of them drink New Coke?
posted by shortfuse at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015


Remember when Rand Paul fancied himself a thorn in the GOP's side? Memories...
posted by krinklyfig at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015


Did Jeb just kill his chances? It'll be interesting to see how this bit plays out.
posted by nushustu at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015


He must be high.
posted by peeedro at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, Jeb, let's segue from pot to heroin.
posted by lester at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jeb Bush more like Jeb /r/trees
posted by cortex at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Aqua Buddha.
posted by box at 7:31 PM on September 16, 2015


listening to someone talk sense is like someone briefly opening a window in a farted-up cubicle
posted by Countess Elena at 7:31 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Marijuana's a gateway drug, huh?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:33 PM on September 16, 2015


Marijuana is a gateway drug! I feel like I am in health class in 1997 again.
posted by gatorae at 7:33 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I once smoked three marijuanas. The next day I did four heroins. Don't be like me kids.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:33 PM on September 16, 2015 [28 favorites]


I'm pretty sure weed leads to gay marriage
posted by vuron at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Christie: Rand Paul's trying to trick you with human empathy! Look away!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Cannot believe Christie just said the life of a drug offender is worth as much as the life of an unborn fetus!!
posted by aka burlap at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


A medicine.
posted by box at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2015


Florida under Jeb! was the epicenter of the explosion in pill mills that contributed to the current opiate epidemic.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


Trump should say something like "Hell I did lots of coke in the 80s and I turned out okay"
posted by vuron at 7:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [29 favorites]


I'm pretty sure weed leads to gay marriage

If it's a decent wedding, sure...
posted by krinklyfig at 7:35 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fiorina just got super real AND called Bush a pothead in a single response. Damn.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Not very far.
posted by box at 7:36 PM on September 16, 2015


Jeb energy level almost approaching 40%.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


If we can't get guns in the hands of the mentally ill, we're practically living in 1984.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Marco needs to just shut the fuck up.
posted by wallabear at 7:38 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


We should implant guns into wombs so fetuses can protect themselves from abortions.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:38 PM on September 16, 2015 [36 favorites]


Man, this undercard debate is predictably absurd. When does the real debate begin?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:38 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


The pot explains Jeb's energy levels, no?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2015


Cruz up to 16 lemons.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Gun Owners of America, caught in that goa trance.
posted by box at 7:40 PM on September 16, 2015


I guess Trump gets to skip the guns and drugs issues. That's fine, I'm sure is positions are reasonable.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:40 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, jesus. Climate change.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:41 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Cruz just can't get no respect when he filibusters.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:41 PM on September 16, 2015


Back to the Future IV is about traveling back in time to get the old marijuana Jeb Bush smoked 40 years ago to save the high schoolers today from what weed has become.
posted by cortex at 7:41 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Darn, I think Trump might have been about to say something non brain-dead about Social Security.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:42 PM on September 16, 2015


Rubio: climate change is for billionaires, not working families.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:42 PM on September 16, 2015


CHINA IS DRILLING A HOLE?!
posted by Sangermaine at 7:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


you know who has those policies that will make it harder for families to live and work in America? THE SKY
posted by Countess Elena at 7:43 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Christie: we don't need government intervention on climate change (whilst defending his record as governor for -- wait for it -- intervening on climate change).
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


oooooh vax debate
posted by cortex at 7:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh Jesus vaccine conspiracies
posted by Sangermaine at 7:46 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


VACCINES CAUSE FEDERAL EMPLOYEES
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [20 favorites]


This post needs the self-flagellation tag.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


This is sort of perfect, Carson can be boringly, uninspiringly correct and then pivot into Big Government like the secret to vaccination is to boil 'em up in church basements on a local basis.
posted by cortex at 7:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm sure that story is true.
posted by nom de poop at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2015


Vaccines ... did you know there are 4 million government employees?
posted by krinklyfig at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2015


"just in little sections" ?!
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2015


we've had some laughs but this is really legitimately repellent and harmful
posted by Countess Elena at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2015 [14 favorites]


Goddamit, Carson. Stop speaking like a simulacrum of a reasonable person.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


What's scary is that this field of complete jackasses make me long for the days when the Republicans could just nominate a corporate owned suit who would basically throw a little red meat to the evangelical voters but essentially just be endless pro-business policies. You know stuff that I could disagree with but I had some idea of understanding their world view.

This current Republican party is basically demanding candidates that would be willing to dress up in white sheets and burn a cross on a lawn.
posted by vuron at 7:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [19 favorites]


Trump learned his lesson with the high five and just went for a subtle butt pat this time.
posted by cortex at 7:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm also for freedom.
posted by box at 7:50 PM on September 16, 2015


This thread is great - I really feel like I'm actually watching the deb(acle).

Carry on.
posted by sundrop at 7:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huckabee calling for a war on diabetes. Really? Really?!
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Goddamit, Carson. Stop speaking like a reasonable person.

Is he? Is there actually a legitimate debate in the medical community regarding the number of vaccines for children?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:50 PM on September 16, 2015


Let's stop this shilly-shallying about curing cancer folks.
posted by nom de poop at 7:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Huckabee is right...we *should* start looking for a cure for cancer.
posted by uosuaq at 7:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


my valet does the flagellating, thanks
posted by wallabear at 7:51 PM on September 16, 2015


Thanks for not curing cancer, Obama. Jerk.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:51 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Is he? Is there actually a legitimate debate in the medical community regarding the number of vaccines for children?

Of course not. I meant his tone. He's like a tired clown in a clown-dome of mega-clowns.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:52 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think under the tenth amendment the states have to cure cancer first.
posted by a dangerous ruin at 7:53 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


"oooh, that's a tough one"
posted by Countess Elena at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015


Cool they got Jason Sudeikis to moderate this.
posted by nom de poop at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015


We should cure everything, but not if it's bunched up. Or government funded. No stem cells!
posted by krinklyfig at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015


Simi Valley.
posted by box at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015


I heard that actually the NIH has a cure for cancer but Obama is preventing it from going out into the market because he wants more old white people to die first. If the cancer doesn't kill them then the death panels will.

TRUE FACTS
posted by vuron at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Honoring women? HAW HAW HAW HAW
posted by nom de poop at 7:54 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huckabee would put his wife on US currency?
posted by krinklyfig at 7:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rosa Parks. Or else my mother.
posted by box at 7:55 PM on September 16, 2015


FUCK ALL OF THESE ASSHOLES FOR INVOKING ROSA FUCKING PARKS.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [19 favorites]


Just an engraved finger pointing back at whoever is holding the bill.
posted by nom de poop at 7:55 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


No, wait, Ivanka Trump.
posted by box at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


My wife? My mom? Margaret Thatcher, with the caveat that "It's not going to happen so what's it matter?" Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by gatorae at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Mom defeats wife, right? Financially speaking...
posted by krinklyfig at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2015


It's so gross that they're talking about mothers and wives. Not even taking women seriously as contributors to the level of someone as anodyne as Susan B. Oh, and here's Carly as the Cool Girl.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]


Huckabee calling for a war on diabetes. Really? Really?!

Knows his audience.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I'm shocked no one said Mary Magdalene.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, shit. Here we go. "Rawhide" and "Rainbow." Fuck this.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015


Hot take carly
posted by aka burlap at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I agree with Christie - let's put Wednesday Addams on the currency.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Mother Theresa. No, wait, the Addams Family.
posted by box at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015


Left to right: Susan B, Mrs. Huck, Rosa Parks, Rosa Parks, Ma Carson, Ivanka or maybe Rosa, Margaret fuckin' THATCHER, Clara Barton and also I'm a chump, as a woman I don't think there should be a woman, Mother Teresa, Bruce Abigail Adams
posted by cortex at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


The Addams family has indeed been shorted on US currency
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Butt Trumpet. All across the board.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


How does it feel to be a GOP minority and have to shit on your people like that. How does it feel.
posted by nom de poop at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015


I will only be happy if Jesus is put on the US $20. Really put some umph into that Gospel of Prosperity.
posted by vuron at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


My wife says you'll never be Unit One.
posted by box at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Damn Carly goin for that Meninist vote
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:58 PM on September 16, 2015


Jesus mother loving Christ is this the SNL skit of the debate? Did I have a stroke and lose time? Are these fucking jokers for real?
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


Cruz goes for the previously embargoed Cuban cigar.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:59 PM on September 16, 2015


Reagan wraps it up.
posted by box at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2015


God that "give your security name" bit made the whole rest of the night worth it.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2015


I'd avoided throwing up in my mouth a little until just now.
posted by wallabear at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2015


We still have time to take a few facebook questions. *crosses fingers*
posted by triggerfinger at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2015


Or Rubio, right? ... listening but not watching.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2015


Good ol' scrappy young no-name anti-establishment President Reagan.
posted by cortex at 8:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


How does it feel to be a GOP minority and have to shit on your people like that. How does it feel.
posted by nom de poop at 7:58 PM on September 16 [+] [!]


eponysterical?
posted by Going To Maine at 8:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


"We'd be operating under a tax system that eliminated the IRS" - a human person ostensibly seeking the highest office of the land
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


People wouldn't bully us any more. People respected law enforcement.
posted by box at 8:01 PM on September 16, 2015


What is this hippie shit.
posted by nom de poop at 8:02 PM on September 16, 2015


Winners and losers from Political Wire.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:02 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rubio works in the plane. Scott Walker thinking shit shit shit, was gonna use the plane, what am I gonna—"how about Land Harley One, yeah?"
posted by cortex at 8:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


in the sense that they'll have to work 2, 3, 4, 5 jobs
posted by Countess Elena at 8:03 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The nice thing about a flat tax is its so simple that you can administer and collect it with a simple 300 million person bike route.
posted by cortex at 8:04 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Irresponsible fiscal habits. Free phones.
posted by box at 8:05 PM on September 16, 2015


"I hope I don't sound crazy."
posted by The Hamms Bear at 8:05 PM on September 16, 2015


College students, destabilizing our position, like they do.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:06 PM on September 16, 2015


One of these people is going to be the Republican nominee for president next year. Think about that.
posted by octothorpe at 8:06 PM on September 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


Trump 2016: MORE EVERYTHING
posted by olinerd at 8:06 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Can you imagine if Ben Carson got the nomination and had to debate with Clinton (or Sanders or w/e)?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes.
posted by wallabear at 8:07 PM on September 16, 2015


I think Trump literally said "we'll have more everything...we talked about disease..."
posted by uosuaq at 8:09 PM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]


Walker's sassy head wobble disturbs me.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:09 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Fiorino has some very Rod Serling cadences going on in her closing statement.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


So with Bush basically trying his best to get every big money donor to give up on his campaign who are the establishment types going to gel around?

Trump and Carson are leading the field currently but neither are remotely electable. I'd venture to guess that Fiorina isn't either because the hatchets haven't even begun to come out and she has a fuckton of very connected enemies from her tenure at HP.

I just can't see any of the not-Jeb! candidates somehow getting the establishment to support them currently. Granted with billionaires willing to basically fund a candidate it's not as critical as it once was but in the meantime Hillary is building up a pretty massive warchest and pretty much has nothing much to worry about.
posted by vuron at 8:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


GREAT JOB MEMORIZING CARLY
posted by nushustu at 8:10 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


And she knows the pledge of allegiance, too.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:11 PM on September 16, 2015


FIORINO: Elaborate, carefully rehearsed winkingly-self-referential metaphor about tall, bold, visionary Lady Liberty and her sister Lady Justice, with liberty and justice for all.
KASICH: Well, shit.
posted by cortex at 8:12 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


So with Bush basically trying his best to get every big money donor to give up on his campaign who are the establishment types going to gel around?

Rubio; Carly's running for the VP slot.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


CHRISTIE IN REHEARSAL WITH AIDES: I really feel like I should just go with My Home Town, it's such a great fuckin' song, it's--
AIDES: Just read the thing we practiced, sir.
posted by cortex at 8:13 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


What a fucking farce.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:14 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


When SNL spoofs this, they should just use exact quotes from these candidates.
posted by nushustu at 8:15 PM on September 16, 2015 [21 favorites]


Casron got away from Trump while Trump was gladhanding Bush, you could see a tiny moment of high school heartbreak when Trump turned and he was gone.
posted by cortex at 8:15 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Heh. Steve Schmidt to Chris Matthews: "They gave Rand Paul a wedgie."
posted by wallabear at 8:16 PM on September 16, 2015


I honestly don't see how ANY of these people can win the nomination. Maybe Romney will run again?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:17 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Aww, shit, CNN cut off the feed right when Donald was getting into an awkward "do you think Fiorina did well", "well, I think she's a very nice lady" exchange.
posted by cortex at 8:18 PM on September 16, 2015


Trump: I stood for three hours I think that's a record
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:18 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


CNN - "GOP CANDIDATES CLASH AT DEBATE"


lol no
posted by louche mustachio at 8:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


With this bunch of jokers as the nominees it's not about trying to figure out who could win in the general election it's about trying to figure who wouldn't get their asses kicked the hardest.

At a certain point in time a throughly unelectable candidate doesn't just fuck over the chances of getting control of the white house but it also puts the senate and maybe the house at risk.

With the next president likely to nominate as many as 3-4 justices losing the white and congress could be massive blows to the Republicans.
posted by vuron at 8:22 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


If I hadn't had a cold before five hours of that, I would now. I need to read a book on self-care.
posted by cortex at 8:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I have the feeling Trump is one of those old white dudes that touches black people every chance he gets.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:26 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


i would put rose parks on the currency. was she a president? was she a small business owner? no one knows for sure. but we know one thing: her name polls high even today
posted by Greg Nog at 8:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [29 favorites]


"How do you feel?"

"Depleted"




YEAH PRETTY MUCH



It would have been cool if they were herding actual cats. CATS 2016
posted by louche mustachio at 8:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]



I have the feeling Trump is one of those old white dudes that touches black people every chance he gets.


lol. is that your natural skin color? does it... feel different?
posted by lkc at 8:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


The correct answer is "Harriet Tubman," and these guys were just all...!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:30 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Losing the white and congress could be massive blows to the either party.
And from my vantage point in a Coastal California congressional district that seems to be turning Tea Party Red, anything, no matter how scary, looks possible.
Trump is one of those rich dudes who touches people he thinks are lesser than him every chance he gets.
Many of Rosa Parks' supporters think "yeah, Rosie Parks, that hot actress with the weird accent."

That's it. I quit.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:32 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can't get over Christie saying his codename should be True Heart, is he a Care Bear? Is that really the image he wants to go with? Was "Sparkle Pony" taken (I'm on to you, Grover Cleveland)?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:32 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Did Trump just say, "We're very happy, there were a lot of cameras."? Because I've been drinking.
posted by wallabear at 8:33 PM on September 16, 2015


judging by his performance, so was trump
posted by Greg Nog at 8:35 PM on September 16, 2015


I checked out after ten minutes and hung out with some friends at a bar with no TV, what did I miss
posted by theodolite at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Is Trump's bid some sort of weird, three dimensional space-chess move to get me to empathize with Jeb Bush? Because, fuck it, I feel bad for the guy.
posted by codacorolla at 8:44 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


I can't believe "What's your secret service code name" was a real question.
posted by kiltedtaco at 8:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I can't believe any of this shit. It's like a lesser work of Warren Ellis - that's not a compliment to either Warren Ellis nor reality.
posted by codacorolla at 8:50 PM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Kasich is their only credible candidate. Not that that's a good thing.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:05 PM on September 16, 2015




I think Trump literally said "we'll have more everything...we talked about disease..."

TRUMP/NURGLE 2016
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:11 PM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


TPM's Josh Marshall weighs in. I don't know that Trump has hurt Jeb!'s campaign as much as Jeb! has, but Marshall's proven himself a pretty astute observer of GOP craziness, so I'm inclined to at least consider that Trump's nuttiness has been a bigger part of the equation.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:25 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Kasich is their only credible candidate. Not that that's a good thing."

No it is not says this ohioan. The economic turnaround has been on the backs of the vulnerable and teachers. Fuck him with a spoon unless we can get to see Hillary step on his head whi,e he mews in submission in the gemrtsl election. I'd pay for that.

At this point I'm all about Trump. Total victory for the Demz or the total fucking shitpocalypse that deserve.
posted by charred husk at 9:28 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I checked out after ten minutes and hung out with some friends at a bar with no TV, what did I miss

The election is in sixteen months, you missed nothing why are we even doing this.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [24 favorites]


"Okay. Let's vote for Reagan. Sounds better than any of these guys."

Bernie Sanders on twitter.
posted by wallabear at 9:37 PM on September 16, 2015 [22 favorites]


Bernie Sanders ‏@BernieSanders 3h3 hours ago

Yup. Bush was a great president. Yes. No doubt. Great president. All Obama's fault.

Bernie Sanders ‏@BernieSanders 3h3 hours ago

@BernieSanders That was sarcasm, by the way.
posted by wallabear at 9:47 PM on September 16, 2015 [14 favorites]


"If I become president," said Lindsey Graham, "first thing we're going to do, we're going to drink more."

I missed the kids' table debate, which sounds like it might have been a better choice. Jindal has been running without a filter since the start and still nobody cares, Santorum almost seems quaint today but just won't give up the ghost of brittle piety, Pataki is the deep bench trying to resurrect a career as a moderate in a party which considers moderation to be treasonous, and now Graham's getting into the liquor cabinet.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


I would totally party with Lindsey Graham. I'll bet he's a hoot when he's not having to be fucking Lindsey Graham.
posted by wallabear at 10:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


Wait, how could Kasich be more credible than Pataki?

I miss Jon Huntsman.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:32 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I love Bernie Sanders channeling GladOS.
posted by Balna Watya at 10:42 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


carlyfiorina.org
posted by naju at 10:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [15 favorites]




Not sure how Trump can complain about Carly Fiorina's business acumen. She personally came out of the whole HP thing with plenty of money, and to hear Trump talk about his own business ventures, that's all that matters.
posted by ckape at 11:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Carly Fiorina and the HP Pretexting Scandal

Did former chairman and chief executive Carly Fiorina play a role in the spying scandal that tarnished the once sterling reputation of Hewlett-Packard Corporation?

Revelations in 2006 that company investigators, using private and confidential information provided by HP, had posed as board members and journalists to obtain private phone records and e-mails created a public uproar. HP officials were hauled before Congress and California filed criminal charges against several company officials, including former Chairman Patricia Dunn.

There’s no evidence to suggest that Fiorina knew or condoned this practice, known as “pretexting” (aka lying). The HP board fired Fiorina more than a year before the scandal broke. Fiorina’s own phone records were obtained by HP investigators after she had left the company.

But that’s not the complete story. A look at the record shows that HP’s leak investigations began under Fiorina ... and employed the same security firm who worked for HP during Fiorina’s entire tenure as chairman. Furthermore, the board member Fiorina suspected as the source of the leak became the focus of the investigation.


The CEO and the CIA: How Carly Fiorina managed and advised the ‘poobahs’ at Langley.

One week after 9/11, Michael Hayden, the director of the National Security Agency, the electronic surveillance arm of the U.S. government, had a long list of problems. High on the list was the fact that the NSA needed a ton of new high-tech equipment, particularly servers, right away, to handle a vastly expanded, critically important workload. Hayden called up the CEO of Hewlett Packard, Carly Fiorina.

“HP made precisely the equipment we needed, and we needed in bulk,” says Robert Deitz, who was general counsel at the NSA from 1998 to 2006. Deitz recalls that a tractor-trailer full of HP servers and other equipment was on the Washington, D.C. Beltway, en route to retailers, at the very moment Hayden called. Fiorina instructed her team to postpone the retailer delivery and have the driver stop. An NSA police car met up with the tractor-trailer and the truck proceeded, with an armed escort, to NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland.

It was an early moment in the close professional relationship between Hayden and Fiorina. Five years later, President George W. Bush named Hayden director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Upon assuming control at Langley, Hayden decided that he wanted to create an ‘External Advisory Board.’ He once again turned to Fiorina, and she went on to chair that board.


And, interestingly, for all the talk about the nuclear deal with Iran, it's interesting that her business deals with Iran never came up.

HP mum on selling printers to Iran

Hewlett-Packard refused Monday to comment in detail on a newspaper report that it uses a foreign distributor to sell printers in Iran in apparent violation of U.S. trade sanctions.

HP knew the sales to Iran would circumvent U.S. law, according to a report in The Boston Globe, but it remains unclear whether the tech giant actually violated the law.

At the focus of attention is a distribution deal HP signed with a Dubai-based company called Redington Gulf in 1997, two years after the Clinton administration imposed sanctions on Iran. Redington, which as a foreign company falls outside U.S. regulations, rapidly ramped up sales to Iran.


Tsk tsk. Spying on employees. Spying on American citizens. Selling out Americans by profiting from business deals with a country that Republicans say we're not supposed to do business with.

Granted, I can see why it's tough for others to call her out. So many of her comrades-in-arms have sold us out in the same ways. And she's a woman, so they have to treat her with kid gloves or else their history catches up with them. She's in a good spot to go far.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:02 AM on September 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


How about this as a conspiracy theory based on absolutely no actual knowledge?

Would the Republican elites have pushed to include Fiorina in this debate because they guessed that she could effectively attack Trump on sexism? It's apparently easy for Trump to get away with misogynistic bullshit when he controls the medium, like on his twitter account, or when he has the media broadcasting whatever effluvia gushes out of his mouth. It might be harder for him for him to get away with if the woman he's attacking has the same mike he has to answer back. If I were running the Republican party I'd be doing everything I could to put Fiorina in the same frame as Trump.
posted by rdr at 2:36 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think she earned it with polling. She performs very well at debates, I was impressed.

He asked Trump for an apology; Trump said no. Then there was that awkward low five at the end.

That was awful. "Apologize to my wife."

"No."
...
"Okay, gimme five!"

I still think Bush is gonna turn it around eventually like McCain did. Just because he looks doomed now doesn't mean it's gonna last when you have so much establishment support.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:16 AM on September 17, 2015






I'll admit to having -- in the past couple of weeks -- a moment or two of doubt about my all-in wager on "Trump Won't be the Nominee," but last night's debate restored my confidence. This was always going to happen. Every other candidate is going to keep going after him with both barrels, he's going to keep spouting gibberish and non-sequiturs, and eventually he'll get annoyed and bored with the whole ordeal. The question is, who will be the next person to climb the charts? Fiorina? Carson? I chuckle at the thought at either of them leading the primary race of this current Republican electorate. I used to think Kasich would end up winning the nom but now I'm thinking Rubio is looking more likely. Although, the one big strike against him that will hurt his chances in the primary, and this is funny/sad to even think and say -- is that he appears to be a fluent Spanish speaker.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:48 AM on September 17, 2015


One of these people is going to be the Republican nominee for president next year. Think about that.

I went to bed at 10:00 because after 4 hours of watching I was tired of the stuttering "streaming." All I could think about as I got ready to go to sleep was that was an insane job interview. In-fucking-sane. These guys, and gal, are interviewing for the highest job in government in the world and they all come across as know-nuthing nutbags riding their hobbyhorses to some magical land where R. Reagan was a saint and Obama is the devil incarnate. Are we sure they weren't interviewing for a spot in a psych ward?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:23 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


I will believe forever that if, when Jeb said "My brother kept Americans safe," Trump had come back with "Not on September 11th, he didn't," the race would have essentially been over at that point.
posted by Etrigan at 6:17 AM on September 17, 2015 [18 favorites]




It doesn't matter who won the debate last night. All of them saying they want to defund Planned Parenthood probably disqualifies them from the White House.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Fiorina reeks of coastal urbanity and the boardroom. She doesn't smile much. And while she radiates much more energy than Jeb Bush, she seems even more miserable than he does on the campaign trail. (You and I may not enjoy Sarah Palin's public appearances, but it's obvious that Palin enjoys them.)

Fiorina's words are brined in contempt -- nearly every sentence she utters seems as if it could be completed by an unspoken "you idiots." Palin, in her own uninformed, bratty, inarticulate way, comes off this way as well -- but her targets are always the right-wing base's enemies. Fiorina is going after base favorites like Donald Trump. I can't imagine the base warming to her if she's challenging one of their heroes.


Yuk. Just because the guy who wrote that acknowledges that men are always telling women to smile doesn't mean that he then has a free pass to run with the narrative that he thinks she basically has resting bitch face. Per my link above - anyone who contributes in any way to the ongoing commentary about how women in the public eye look is part of the problem.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:00 AM on September 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Smiling is by definition not resting. I didn't interpret that post as anything resembling an argument thay Fiorina has RBF, just that she's a politician and needs to pretend she enjoys campaigning. I'd put Rand Paul and Bernie (my preferred candidate) in the same category of folks who don't seem to enjoy the daily grind of campaigning, and probably need to do a better job of pretending they do.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:12 AM on September 17, 2015


Me, yesterday:

It'll be interesting to see how a smaller crowd affects Trump's schtick (if it does at all).


Yeah, it wasn't that interesting.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:19 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]




Matt Bai - If you were in Washington watching the Republican debate last night, you might have felt a small tilt in the floor, or heard the plates rattling gently in their cupboards. That was the sound of the Republican establishment shifting its collective weight away from Jeb Bush — and inching a little bit closer to their best available alternative. And no, it’s not Ben Carson or Carly Fiorina.

[spoiler - he thinks it's Kasich]
posted by Chrysostom at 7:38 AM on September 17, 2015


toncpsu, I don't disagree with you, and I know this is a topic that has been mentioned with other candidates as well (past and present - Obama is a notable example of someone who seems to dislike it). I just hate it when someone writing uses something about a woman's appearance - especially when it centers around her not seeming "nice" or "warm" enough as a jumping-off point for discussing issues that would otherwise be fair game. It seems lazy to me, and like the author has not very deeply examined their own potential bias (would I say these same things, using these same words, if she were a man?). Saying Bernie looks grumpy when campaigning and Carly looks grumpy when campaigning have, I think, very different effects on how people perceive the candidate being discussed. I think it's worth the extra effort it may take when talking about women candidates to try to be fair in our language choice. Because the words people use and the subtle differences in framing matter.

I did a little experiment a few years ago at Janet Yellen's first testimony before the House Financial Services Committee and how the papers reported it. I took some of the more egregious examples and subbed in Obama's name for Yellen's name and did some other minimal changes to gender pronouns, etc. The articles then sounded ridiculous. Because of course you're not going to lead an article about the historic event of the first black POTUS at his first appearance before Congress with a couple of paragraphs about his outfit. These things subtly shape the public perception of women.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:42 AM on September 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


I don't disagree with you, and I know this is a topic that has been mentioned with other candidates as well (past and present - Obama is a notable example of someone who seems to dislike it).

Really? I always thought Obama was great at putting on the fake smile and making it look like he was enjoying the small talk with the folks during both of his campaigns. I don't know that I ever saw him look like he'd rather be somewhere else.

If he looks like he's bored now, it's because his campaigns are over and he's pretty much a lame duck at this point, so he doesn't really have to keep up appearances.

It seems lazy to me, and like the author has not very deeply examined their own potential bias (would I say these same things, using these same words, if she were a man?)

It's quite possible he hasn't and wouldn't, but it looks to me like he's making a positive argument about how he thinks GOP voters will respond to her, not his own normative argument about he thinks Fiorina should act or look. It reads to me like a prediction of how the base will respond to Firoina's likely media-fueled post-debate rise in the polls, and yeah, it's hard to make that critique without letting any of your own bias about how women are expected to look and act seep in, but I do think we should be able to talk about these expectations honestly.

The misogyny around RBF and expecting women to act/look a certain way is bad enough that I'm not eager to die on this hill, but I did think the comparison to other prominent Republican women was interesting. As the only woman in the GOP field, it's unavoidable that she's going to be compared to other women like Palin and Ernst, and I do think they either honestly enjoyed the campaigning, or did a good job of pretending they did.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:49 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Trump should say something like "Hell I did lots of coke in the 80s and I turned out okay"

Interestingly, Trump claims that he has never drank, done drugs or smoked because of the struggles of his older brother with alcoholism.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:08 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


If watching the debates last night, reading about them this morning, or reading this post have got you down, I recommend watching the video in this post just down the way.
posted by Aizkolari at 9:10 AM on September 17, 2015


My favorite part of the whole thing was the way Trump glowed and strutted like a praised dog for a full minute after Jeb Bush acknowledged that he is very wealthy.
posted by contraption at 9:15 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Vox: This is the second debate Fiorina won. She dominated the JV stage in the Fox News debate, forcing CNN to change the rules to ensure she made the main stage in their event. She validated their decision tonight. She had the crispest answers, received the biggest cheers, and proved the only candidate on the stage capable of standing against Trump. She made everyone else on the stage — especially Trump — look unprepared. But she did it in part by playing fast and loose with the facts.

A Republican playing fast and loose with facts? You don't say...
posted by Gelatin at 9:17 AM on September 17, 2015




I thought Fiorina was great in some ways, but even I noticed that she comes across as rather... "patrician"? Blue-blooded and contemptuous of everyone around her? That's the sort of thing the people in Peoria hate more than anything else. You can't have a beer with Carly. No way.
posted by naju at 9:23 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


That's the sort of thing the people in Peoria hate

You're just trying to summon Eyebrows McGee here, aren't you?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:27 AM on September 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


Maybe! I've spent time in Peoria, Illinois and it's a lovely town! It has a small but thriving noise music scene, believe it or not.
posted by naju at 9:34 AM on September 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


this pretty much encapsulates the rollercoaster of emotion that the debate sent me on
posted by burgerrr at 9:35 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Blue-blooded and contemptuous of everyone around her? That's the sort of thing the people in Peoria hate more than anything else. You can't have a beer with Carly. No way.

How does Hillary compare with Carly?
posted by Apocryphon at 9:43 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


How does Hillary compare with Carly?

I don't see any scenario where that matters.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:47 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I feel like I could have an awkward beer with Hillary, at least.

My selected winners of the 2nd GOP goblin carnival debate:

1. Trump, whose mugging, smartassed presence constantly reminds you that this is all showbiz nonsense, and sucks all the gravitas out of the room like a black hole. I grow more convinced every day that Bill Clinton called in a favor and Trump is purposely trolling the ever-living shit out of the Republican primary so that when all the dust settles the party wakes up with some DOA Carson/Fiorina ticket, howling "what did we do, what did we do" into the bleak morning light while Trump merrily resumes his life as a hedonist businessclown.

2. Christie, who was the only person who neither treated the woman-on-the-$10 question like a big fucking sexist joke nor lazily reached for the nearest uncontroversial civil rights icon.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:56 AM on September 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


>> How does Hillary compare with Carly?
> I don't see any scenario where that matters.


Are you saying that because there's no way Fiorina will be the Republican nominee? If so, you've got a point and you're probably right. But at this point, I'm really scratching my head about who the hell they're going to nominate from this clown show, now that Jeb!'s new clothes are looking pretty tattered. Christie, back from the dead? Kasich?

But if Fiorina is the nominee against Clinton, I think we have a demonstrated section of the electorate that votes on the basis of "who'd I rather have a beer with?", and their misogyny would cancel out on both sides of the choice, so...

(Actually, I'd pay good money to watch the commentary if they were the nominees facing off against each other. Yeah, historical, of course, but what do they do with all those scripts about how a woman is not reliable enough or competent enough to answer the red phone at 3AM when *both* nominees are women? Because those scripts are waiting in the wings as soon as the Republicans have a male nominee to put up against Clinton - you know that's true.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:02 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think the answer would be "twice the sexism"
posted by naju at 10:05 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Christie, who was the only person who neither treated the woman-on-the-$10 question like a big fucking sexist joke nor lazily reached for the nearest uncontroversial civil rights icon.

As much as it galls me to say anything non-negative about Scott Walker, Clara Barton was a perfectly reasonable choice that came from his personal experience. It wasn't great, but it wasn't lazy pandering.
posted by Etrigan at 10:13 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think the answer would be "twice the sexism"

But wouldn't it be fun to watch the heads explode?
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:14 AM on September 17, 2015


Are you saying that because there's no way Fiorina will be the Republican nominee?

I was saying that the odds of Clinton being the nominee are small, the odds of Fiorina being the nominee are small, and the chance of both of them being the nominees are none.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:16 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I feel like I could enjoy a dirty martini while gabbing with Hillary. I don't think that makes her any better of a candidate, but unlike at least one of the Republicans propped up on a stage last night, at least I could sit with her and not feel like she's sizing me up for an alien dissection. That should probably win some points in New Hampshire, at least.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:17 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Carly Fiorina is wrong about the Planned Parenthood tapes. I know because I watched them. (previously

Of all the times I yelled at the television last night, I think this was the one that had me most pissed off* -- not only because I knew she was lying the moment she uttered her bullshit claims, but also because I am positive she will never actually be taken to task over it. The base will lap it up, and the media will never bother to actually press her on her oh-so-specific memories of the terrible things that didn't actually happen.

* (probably #2 on the list is also from Fiorina, what with her reefer madness revival. losing a child to drugs is tragic, but pales in comparison to losing whole generations of people, particularly black men, to our absurd war on drugs)
posted by tocts at 10:31 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


As much as it galls me to say anything non-negative about Scott Walker, Clara Barton was a perfectly reasonable choice that came from his personal experience.

I missed that, possibly because whenever Scott Walker talks I get a blinding pain behind my eyes and all I can hear is a high-pitched buzzing sound.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:40 AM on September 17, 2015 [21 favorites]


As much as it galls me to say anything non-negative about Scott Walker, Clara Barton was a perfectly reasonable choice that came from his personal experience.

I missed that, possibly because whenever Scott Walker talks I get a blinding pain behind my eyes and all I can hear is a high-pitched buzzing sound.


I fought through that the first time, but I didn't get his Secret Service code name reply even after three attempts to hear it.
posted by Etrigan at 10:45 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I didn't get his Secret Service code name reply

He said "Harley," because lord knows he couldn't leave well enough alone and end on a high, graceful note.
posted by psoas at 10:47 AM on September 17, 2015


at least I could sit with her and not feel like she's sizing me up for an alien dissection.

"We have to keep it alive so we can harvest the brain! Bzzzzzt"
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2015


Thanks to the WaPo transcript.
posted by psoas at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I didn't get his Secret Service code name reply

CNN sucks for asking the Secret Service code name queston.

The candidates suck for answering it and not calling it out for the shitty question it is.

I suck for letting a stupid puff ball question get so under my skin.

America sucks for creating the context that allowed that moment to happen.

Most of all though, somehow, Jeb Bush sucks for choosing a code name that is a battery brand's commercial slogan.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:53 AM on September 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


The candidates suck for answering it and not calling it out for the shitty question it is.

I was surprised that Fiorina was willing to call out the significantly-less-shitty woman-on-the-$10-bill question but went right along with the code name question, especially given her shitty response.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on September 17, 2015


Looking forward to the next GOP debate, when the candidates get asked which Sex and the City character they are.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:58 AM on September 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


Of all the times I yelled at the television last night, I think this was the one that had me most pissed off* -- not only because I knew she was lying the moment she uttered her bullshit claims, but also because I am positive she will never actually be taken to task over it.

Like Trump's anti-vax comments, it might be worth exploring how culpable the media is in promulgating Fiorina's obvious big lie, and what they are getting out of not repudiating it.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:00 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Chris Christie: BRIDGETONOWHERE

John Kasich: YAWNFEST

Carly Fiorina: YOUREALLFIRED

Scott Walker: DIPSHIT

Jeb Bush: MRFEEDINGTUBE

Donald Trump: TRONALD-DUMP

Ben Carson: ROCKETSCIENTIST

Ted Cruz: TOTALDIPSHIT

Marco Rubio: CHRISTWHATAFUCKINGDIPSHIT

Mike Huckabee: BIBLEHUMPER

Rand Paul: RONPAUL

Rick Santorum: FROTHYMIXOFLUBEANDFECALMATTERTHATISSOMETIMESABYPRODUCTOFANALSEX
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:01 AM on September 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


triggerfinger: "Looking forward to the next GOP debate, when the candidates get asked which Sex and the City character they are."

"Governor Walker, Donald Trump has described you as, "a total Charlotte." What is your response?"
posted by Chrysostom at 11:05 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think we're about two election cycles away from Double Dare style physical challenges at debates.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 11:09 AM on September 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Well, I'm certainly not voting for someone who can't find a flag inside of a giant snot-filled nose.
posted by tocts at 11:12 AM on September 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


Dear gods, Jeb is doubling the fuck DOWN on his brother keeping us safe. Yes, that is a photo of the rubble next to that quote.
posted by Etrigan at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Well, I'm certainly not voting for someone who can't find a flag inside of a

[snip]

[scroll up]

[snip]

FROTHYMIXOFLUBEANDFECALMATTERTHATISSOMETIMESABYPRODUCTOFANALSEX

There ya go. There's your GOP primary Double Dare.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:19 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Looking forward to the next GOP debate, when the candidates get asked which Sex and the City character they are.

My guesses:

Carries:
George Pataki, John Kasich, Marco Rubio,* Jim Gilmore

Charlottes:
Jeb!, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Lindsey Graham**

Mirandas:
Ben Carson, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Scott Walker

Samanthas:
Bobby Jindal, Chris Christie, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz

-

* (Is possibly a Miranda)
** (Mistakenly believes he's a Samantha)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:23 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I am entirely unsure how you ended up with Jindal as a Samantha, but I am so behind your other selections, I am willing to entertain any argument you might have if you'd do us the honor.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:26 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


"Mr. Trump, which of the girls are you?"

I'm not answering that question.

"Mr. Trump, you're—you're refusing to—all of the other candidates have stated they're willing to pledge their identification with the cast of Sex and the City, how can—"

It's a dumb question. It's a question for dummies. The answer, I'll tell you—

"Are you saying you won't—"

I'll tell you—I'm saying—look, it's a dumb question. The answer is—and don't misunderstand me, Samantha is a lovely woman, she's a very attractive woman, but—

"You won't—"

Let me finish. Let me finish.

"Okay, please—"

It's a foolish question and I'll tell you why. Because Sex and the City, it was a tremendous show, but it wasn't just four women. And I'm going to make—look, who am I? I'm Mister Big. I'm the only person on this stage who can say that.

"So you are going on the record that you won't—"

Mister Big. Or maybe that, whoozit, the Kyle MacLachlan guy. McBeagle, something. I'll hire somebody, you can bet I am gonna hire the best, the absolute best bloggers on this, you won't believe the kind of talent.
posted by cortex at 11:34 AM on September 17, 2015 [27 favorites]


"Mr. Bush: Logan, Dean or Jess?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:37 AM on September 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


"Our final question: Marry, Fuck, Kill: The Other Candidates on Stage Tonight."
posted by saul wright at 11:38 AM on September 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


Upon consideration, maybe Jindal is more of a Charlotte?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:40 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Trump is whatshername, Kyle MacLachlan's mom. You know, she was Ma Clavin.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:43 AM on September 17, 2015


"With Gilligan..." (Ted Cruz)
"The Skipper, too..." (Chris Christie)
"The Millionaire..." (Donald Trump)
"And his wife..." (Carly Fiorina)
"The Movie Star..." (corpse of Ronald Reagan)
"The Professor..." (Ben Carson)
"And Mary Ann..." (Bobby Jindal)

"And the rest..." (John Kasich)
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:49 AM on September 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


Looking forward to the next GOP debate, when the candidates get asked which Sex and the City character they are.

You folks are free to roam the grounds. Just remember, one of our patients is a Skipper. Try to guess which one — I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Trump's "I'm a good business man who knows how to make money" schtick had a very odd moment (he actually mentioned this at least one more time):

TRUMP: Wait a minute, Carly. Wait. I let you speak. Atlantic City is a disaster, and I did great in Atlantic City. I knew when to get out. My timing was great. And I got a lot of credit for it.


Umm, this does not seem to bode well for his being president. As someone in the second-string debate said, Trump cost thousands of people their livelihood. Also, when you are president, you can't just "get out" of bad situations.
posted by dhens at 11:55 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Josh Marshall: The debate turned not so much to foreign policy as to each candidate trying to outdo the other in embracing the sort of petulant unilateralism that made the aughts such a disaster for the United States. It was, to put it simply, a race to embrace Bush foreign policy on steroids.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:00 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was also surprised / confused by Cruz's insistence that he would change the $20 and not the $10. I mean, I actually think that's good -- take the genocidal president off the currency -- but his reverence for Hamilton as a Founding Father, well, I don't know how that would play with some conservatives. Hamilton was a supporter of central banking and federal supremacy over the states.

Also also, from Rubio: Rosa Parks, an everyday American that changed the course of history. While this fits in nicely with the narrative of everyday woman who got fed up one day, it discounts the fact that she was an active member of the NAACP and part of a larger, coordinated effort to challenge the laws of the Jim Crow South.
posted by dhens at 12:02 PM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


> "With Gilligan..." (Ted Cruz)
> "The Skipper, too..." (Chris Christie) ...


These are frighteningly spot-on.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:03 PM on September 17, 2015


I would pay $5 to see Christie hit Cruz with a sailor hat.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:08 PM on September 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


Also also, from Rubio: Rosa Parks, an everyday American that changed the course of history. While this fits in nicely with the narrative of everyday woman who got fed up one day, it discounts the fact that she was an active member of the NAACP and part of a larger, coordinated effort to challenge the laws of the Jim Crow South.

Religious Right Unaware That Rosa Parks & Martin Luther King Jr. Supported Planned Parenthood
After [Family Research Council President Tony] Perkins falsely claimed that Sanger wanted to “eliminate the black race,” Jackson accused liberals of “rewriting history.”

If [right-wing pastor and Fox News contributor E.W.] Jackson had bothered to do any research, he would have found that Rosa Parks served on Planned Parenthood’s board and Martin Luther King Jr., a vocal advocate of family planning services, accepted the inaugural Margaret Sanger award from Planned Parenthood, praising Sanger as a kindred spirit
posted by zombieflanders at 12:12 PM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Also, when you are president, you can't just [magically fix/change it]

This generally describes most of the GOP candidates' purported policy decisions. Every one of them will just magically defund Planned Parenthood, and for an encore, single-handedly reverse supreme court rulings on a variety of cases. Fiorina will just not talk to Putin, ever. Trump will just be friends with every other world leader, and win them over on all issues. The whole lot of them will extract magical sanctions from Iran. Etc, etc.

Maybe if Jake Tapper could stop asking questions about who bad-mouthed who at the last school dance, the candidates could actually be made to explain how they're going to accomplish these feats, but I suppose that's asking an awful lot of CNN.
posted by tocts at 12:12 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, when you are president, you can't just "get out" of bad situations.

Well, you can—"'So long, suckers!,' said Trump as the helicopter left the White House lawn"—but it's de trop to brag about it before you're elected.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:15 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Recap: Eleven GOP Tributes Fight to the Death for a Bloodthirsty Audience

Having followed the debate here and on Twitter, it seems pretty accurate?
“Let the games began!” shouted dimwitted Gamemaker Wolf Blitzer, grinning maniacally, and so the battle commenced. At the sound of the buzzer, the tributes rushed towards the Cornucopia, scrambling for a weapon to keep them alive for the next three hours.
posted by epersonae at 12:15 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Maybe if Jake Tapper could stop asking questions about who bad-mouthed who at the last school dance, the candidates could actually be made to explain how they're going to accomplish these feats, but I suppose that's asking an awful lot of CNN.

Richard Nixon won re-election in part by claiming he had a secret plan to end the Vietnam War, the details of which (send more troops!) he refused to disclose throughout the election. In 1972.

Asking the media to cover important-but-boring policy in favor of meaningless style and horserace narratives is a fool's errand.
posted by Gelatin at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


I knew Fiorina's provocative description of the Planned Parenthood videos ("a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking") was almost certainly bullshit, but had to find out just how bullshit it was. So I found this article which claims to have "The Video Planned Parenthood And Its Media Allies Deny Exists."

At the 5:57 mark of the video there is a (graphic) clip -- from the anti-abortion Grantham Collection -- of a bloodied fetus on a table which appears to kick fitfully. But watch more closely and it's apparent that they took footage of a deceased fetus settling into place just after being put on a table and then played it back in reverse halfway through, so it looks like it is moving on it own. The rest comes from the former technician's narration, which is clearly suspect.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:27 PM on September 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


Also, when you are president, you can't just [magically fix/change it]

This generally describes most of the GOP candidates' purported policy decisions.


Witness Huckabee talking about finding cures and not just treatments for a range of ailments. How bold! (But if the First Lady says to eat veggies every once in a while to try to combat things like diabetes and heart disease, that is despotic socialism that threatens my patriotic 64 Oz. Big Gulp).
posted by dhens at 12:41 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Huckabee going all What We Need More of is Science was one of the biggest WTF moments of the night

Honestly though after Carson saying vaccines are proven safe, but maybe we should be scared of them anyway, it was refreshing
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:48 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I secretly kind of wish Huckabee got the cancer cure idea from playing Civ II.

"We already have genetic engineering. We just need to beat the Chinese for Cure for Cancer and we'll have more happy people in each city!"
posted by FJT at 12:58 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


“Carly Fiorina: Strong, Crisp, and Effective if You Ignore the Facts,” Charles P. Pierce, Esquire Politics Blog, 17 September 2015
Let us take one more tour of the battlefield before we retire to the gift shoppe at Ronnieworld to pick up some Fawn Hall Authorized Confetti (Guaranteed 100 percent Genuine Secret Government Documents!) or, perhaps, for the kids, a Junior TOW Missile Commander suit complete with Iranian flags on the sleeves. What we saw last night, and I stayed awake for the whole damn thing so I now know all I care to know about Chris Christie's secret crush on Abigail Adams, was the triumph of fiction over fact, of fantasy over reality. In other words, what we saw was the most fitting tribute to Ronald Reagan ever produced. Congratulations, one and all. The final fealty of the Republican Party to total and complete bullshit has been sworn.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:03 PM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Jeb Lund for The Guardian (two weeks ago!): When you're as bad at campaigns as Scott Walker, you should just give up.

YES PLZ. I desperately want to see my fellow Wisconsin residents dispense with our essential upper Midwestern passive-aggressive nature and just start yelling and throwing shit at him whenever he deigns to return to our state. Whenever he announces that he's dropping out of the race, maybe we could put him in stocks in Capitol Square and give a bunch of teachers five-gallon buckets of half-rotten tomatoes to hurl at him? Because this goggle-eyed homunculus motherfucker has spent years insisting that the state is flat broke while wasting oodles of state taxpayers' money campaigning everywhere but here.

God, I just want him to be completely fucking humiliated by the profundity of this loss. He's been working on this for so long, every aspect of his failure will evoke the taste of the sweetest nectar... I really don't like to let hate seep into my heart, but goddamn if I'm not reaching for an imaginary half-rotten tomato every time I'm reading the news and his stupid weasel face flits across my computer screen.
posted by divined by radio at 2:11 PM on September 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


538 is good.

natesilver: Anyway, the thing about Fiorina is that it seems a little off to classify her as an insurgent/outsider. If you’re the CEO of a major company like HP, you’re a part of the establishment. Unless you’re a real weirdo. And if you run for Senate as a Republican in 2010, and run as a surrogate for a bunch of Republican candidates, you’re part of the ​*political*​ establishment too.

If you read between the lines you see Nate Silver is a neoreactionary and he wants Steve Jobs to be president.
posted by bukvich at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


As a bit of an aside, can I ask, was I the only person taken aback at how matter-of-factly so many of the candidates were just like "Oh hey, there's a problem in the Middle East? We should just provide arms to one of the sides as if they can just be an extension of our foreign policy engine!". Yeah, that's worked out great for us in the past. Totally.

(I mean, I know it was the Reagan Presidential Library, but still ...)
posted by tocts at 2:37 PM on September 17, 2015


Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it can spout shit and pretend it's brand new and untested.

dhens: As someone in the second-string debate said, Trump cost thousands of people their livelihood. Also, when you are president, you can't just "get out" of bad situations.

Bold, neo-corporate-Dickinsonian idea: auction off "failed" cities to the highest bidder. Return of the company town, now with more foreign investments! "Sorry Detroit, you have a great history and some really nice art, but there are a few multi-national conglomerates who are willing to pay twice of what you generated in the last decade in taxes, so we're going to put you on the auction block."
posted by filthy light thief at 2:41 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Recap: Eleven GOP Tributes Fight to the Death for a Bloodthirsty Audience

Meanwhile, four increasingly-irrelevant lesser claimants joust at the kid's table
posted by Apocryphon at 3:13 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


All of the Ways Last Night's GOP Debate Was Dangerously Wrong About Science (Caroline Weinberg, Jezebel)

The very focused Fact checking Christie in second GOP presidential debate (Samantha Marcus, NJ.com)

Fact-checking the second GOP presidential debate (Aaron Sharockman, Tampa Bay Times PolitiFact.com)

Fact check: The second Republican debate (Eugene Kiely, Brooks Jackson, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley and Dave Levitan, FactCheck.org, via USA Today)
posted by filthy light thief at 3:19 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


You might as well fact check an episode of Touched by an Angel, for chrissakes. Honestly.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:25 PM on September 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


Let's look at the bright side. We're still over a year from the election.

Wait did I say "bright?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:00 PM on September 17, 2015


Sheldon Adelson Is Ready To Buy The Presidency
Which brings Adelson to Jeb Bush, the candidate who seemingly has the best chance of slaying both Trump and Clinton but whose relationship with the mogul is as vexed as any of the Republican contenders. If Adelson really feels that backing Gingrich over Romney was a mistake in 2012, backing Jeb this time around would be a kind of atonement. But, frustratingly for Adelson, the heir apparent to the Bush dynasty has not always been so eager to play along.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:05 PM on September 17, 2015


Trump opened up the floor to questions instead of making his usual rambling speech and he's getting a ton of questions from BLACK HELICOPTER MUSLIM nutbars. Equal parts scary and hilarious.
posted by Justinian at 4:26 PM on September 17, 2015


Justinian, totally shocking - a low I didn't even think Trump was capable of. Here's a clip of the most egregious NH rally question and Trump's response - there were others. Charlie Pierce was just on Chris Hayes and said it looks like Trump just lost control of whatever it is he unleashed. If this isn't his jump-the-shark moment, we should all be very afraid.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:19 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


You may want to sit down: as of a couple weeks ago, more than half of GOP voters believe that Obama is a Muslim that wasn't born in the US. There are only three candidates who have more supporters that believe Obama is a Christian, and even those numbers are pretty depressing. Trump is veeeery popular with that crowd, and unlike that infamous incident between McCain and one of the wingnuts, he doesn't have a general election audience to win over yet.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:01 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Here's a clip of the most egregious NH rally question and Trump's response - there were others.

Trump's response was essentially "yeah, things and things and things." Really. He used the word "things." What is going on under that frantic scribble he wears on his head?
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:19 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


And 47% of Iowa caucus voters want to round up and deport immigrants. It's not like that questioner is anything abnormal, that's literally half of all self-identified Republicans that think the same things. There's a deep, broad consensus in FOX/Rush/hateradio land that Trump has it exactly right, and another 20% pretty much agree, but prefer Carson's brand of crazypants.

This is the embodiment of 20 years of the rightwing fever swamp direct to FOX News and on to congress closed feedback loop coming to its logical conclusions, the fascist genie is out of the bottle and the disjointed establishment is not going to be able to put it back or subdue it behind another moderate 1% money-man this time, they want one of their own on the top of the ticket, and they're going to get it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:20 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I mean, I'd love to believe that Trump implying that his hypothetical administration would think of Muslims as inherently suspect is the "defining moment" of the campaign. But we're talking about a man who has yet to have any horrible thing he's said do anything but help him. And let's not forget that almost the entire GOP lineup, "serious" or "establishment" or otherwise, has professed support for repealing the 14th Amendment to near-universal praise from their party and eerie silence from the press.

I don't have any faith in the conventional wisdom of politics anymore, because modern conservatism has thrown it out the window, backed over it, then run it over again just to make sure. Pierce has called it the "prion disease eating away at the Republican party" and we're seeing exactly how deeply rotten it is.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:24 PM on September 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


And let's not forget that almost the entire GOP lineup, "serious" or "establishment" or otherwise, has professed support for repealing the 14th Amendment to near-universal praise from their party and eerie silence from the press.

It's easy to not get worked up on that because doing it is basically impossible. The Planned Parenthood defunding stuff is the sort of thing Democrats should continue to get worked up about. It's doable in the right circumstances, and as Christie and Walker pointed out they were even able to do it in blue states.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


@PFTCommenter was there and did some spin room Deez Nuts photobombing.
posted by nom de poop at 7:14 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


It should be interesting to see how - if at all - his opponents react.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:26 PM on September 17, 2015


What is going on under that frantic scribble he wears on his head?

An ongoing fermentation of arrogance, avarice, cynicism and spite.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:36 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Here's a clip of the most egregious NH rally question and Trump's response - there were others.

The freaky shit was watching Trump's Iowa (?) campaign manager Tanya Goertz on Lawrence O'Donnell moments ago. Asked to comment on Trump's remarks she just sat there like a deer in the headlights and kept repeating that Mr. Trump is real and unscripted and that's why everyone loves him. Asked if she believed that Obama was a Muslim she said no, then said she didn't know, then said she didn't care, then said that Trump knew and that he would reveal the answer "when the time was right." I swear to God, I've never seen a political flunkie who looked so much like a cult member.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:44 PM on September 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


And let's not forget that almost the entire GOP lineup, "serious" or "establishment" or otherwise, has professed support for repealing the 14th Amendment to near-universal praise from their party and eerie silence from the press.

Well, see, The Slaughterhouse Cases and the incorporation debate don't make for a good listicle. And nobody's talking about it on twitter so the cable newswriters and their graphics department have basically nothing to work with! #tldrights, amirite lol?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:44 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


So this is what real, existential, chill-down-your-spine fear feels like

Wonderful

I'd be slightly more comfortable if I knew that people weren't flocking to Trump in fucking droves, or that there's a very real chance that our next President is going to be one of these assholes.
posted by Ashen at 7:47 PM on September 17, 2015


Saw part of that, octobersurprise - cult member is a good characterization. She was unflappable.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:48 PM on September 17, 2015


Now I still don't believe that Trump has an asshole-hair's chance of being nominated, much less of winning, but still: watching that kind of id on display really puts one off the pre-bedtime milk and cookies.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:55 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Has anyone walked through a realistic scenario of what identifying, detaining, and transporting an entire Ohio's worth of people would look like? Checkpoints on major highways, neighborhoods stormed and loaded into carriers, bus caravans with Apache escorts? Are they going to individually process and repatriate everyone or just heave them over the wall? It'd be like what crazy people thought Jade Helm was. Is everyone just assuming that Trump is kidding?
posted by theodolite at 7:57 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the ironic part is it would require a massive buildup of internal security / "police state" of the kind the right supposedly fears all the time. I mean the closest parallel would be the Holocaust, in terms of identifying, rounding up, and transporting a large segment of the population (and realistically having to establish camps to house them in while you figure out where to deport them, since its not like Mexico is likely to accept having non-Mexicans dumped over the border). They love their Nazi imagery when talking about Obama but other than the gas chambers it really would have to look like that...
posted by thefoxgod at 8:03 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


The President isn't an Emperor (although how right-wingers feel about an Imperial Presidency has a rather pathetically obvious relationship to the party occupying the White House).

Constitutionally, the Congress has plenary power over immigration. Obama has gone about as far as one can go on executive authority alone with the DACA and DAPA programs, and I don't feel great about Dems taking a page from the Rove/Dubya playbook there, even if it is comeuppance and even though I agree with the policy agenda.

And red state Congresspeople may be willing to say awful things to get elected, but they aren't going to eviscerate their own economies by actually getting rid of the undocumented labor force.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:06 PM on September 17, 2015


I just don't understand the immigrant issue in the first place. Beside race, which is a BIG besides, what's the cover story? Jobs? Do they seriously believe that immigrants are taking their jobs? Crime?
posted by gofargogo at 8:08 PM on September 17, 2015


Jobs and crime are what I always hear, yes. Very popular to blame crime on immigrants.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:10 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


The President isn't an Emperor

Any scenario where the Republicans win the White House in 2016 also includes unified Republican control of both houses of Congress, there is no realistic scenario where Dems regain the Senate but lose the Presidency, and no scenario for regaining the House, period. The next Republican President might as well be an emperor, Congress wouldn't conceive of saying no to anything he wanted, and there would be no effective opposition whatsoever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:13 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean the closest parallel would be the Holocaust, in terms of identifying, rounding up, and transporting a large segment of the population (and realistically having to establish camps to house them in while you figure out where to deport them, since its not like Mexico is likely to accept having non-Mexicans dumped over the border).

Or perhaps Indian Removal. (Mexicans and other Central and South Americans are not lost Spaniards.) Yet somehow, the Trail of Tears was actually invoked by Cruz at the debate in calling for Jackson to be replaced on the $20 bill rather than Hamilton on the $10 bill. That was pretty surreal.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:14 PM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well, the Republicans will have a hard time getting to 60 votes in the Senate. So they are unlikely to have 0 opposition, but filibuster in the Senate alone is not a terribly strong position for the Democrats.,
posted by thefoxgod at 8:16 PM on September 17, 2015


And the Republicans are highly likely to abolish the filibuster entirely if that's the only thing standing between them and rolling back 50+ years of liberal progress. If the filibuster is the last line of defense, the war is already lost.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:18 PM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Jobs and crime are what I always hear, yes. Very popular to blame crime on immigrants.

The argument is that illegal immigrants can be (and are) paid significantly less than citizens, are provided fewer benefits than would have to be provided to citizens, and can be forced to work under conditions which would be unacceptable to citizens. This depresses wages for everyone and is a problem in and of itself since we have labor laws for a reason.

This argument has the benefit of being at least partly true.

I don't believe for a second Trump's supporters care about any of that. For most of them it is, as you say, about race. If a few million Swedes and Danes were landing on the beaches of Long Island on rickety longboats they wouldn't have a problem with it.
posted by Justinian at 8:24 PM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


untill the pillaging began
posted by Justinian at 8:24 PM on September 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


Do they seriously believe that immigrants are taking their jobs? Crime?

All the benefits they don't actually get, too. (That's the 'spigot of goodies' Dr. Carson wants to turn off.) They're a drain on the system with their 'cultures of poverty' and their anchor babies with their ESL classes that take money away from the football team and, horror above horrors, their children that might date your children.

Plus the perennial anti-immigrant rhetoric: they're dirty, they're dishonest, they are lazy workers, or unfairly cheap workers, or else cutthroat businesspeople killing Main Street, violent, objectionable familial mores, sexual mores, weird language, weird food, weird music. Possibly the wrong name for God.

We're talking about ignorant racist fearmongering misanthropes looking to blame their dissatisfactions and misfortunes on someone even more abject than they are, rather than face the reality that they have more in common with 'those people' than they do with the leaders of their party, whose true constituents are the plutocrats whose assets and incomes they protect.

Plus ça change.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:31 PM on September 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


The next Republican President might as well be an emperor, Congress wouldn't conceive of saying no to anything he wanted, and there would be no effective opposition whatsoever.

Like I said, I think that only goes so far: up to, but not past the point of breaking the states' economies.

(We're talking about immigration law. Constitutional changes have to be ratified by 38 out of 50 states, not just get a supermajority.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:49 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]




I can't see California complying with any mass deportation plan. I mean, the state is either going to keep appealing it until it's overturned. And if it's upheld, then we'll just declare everyone in the state a California resident or say that anyone that has a Cal driver's license is okay to stay. Or we'll just hold a referendum for home rule or something.
posted by FJT at 10:06 PM on September 17, 2015


Justinian, totally shocking - a low I didn't even think Trump was capable of. Here's a clip of the most egregious NH rally question and Trump's response - there were others.

This morning NPR aired the question by a man who led off asserting that America has a Muslim problem, that Obama is a Muslim himself and is not American.

The "national political correspondent" did not see fit to inform her audience of Trump's response, giving a new meaning to "burying the lede."
posted by Gelatin at 3:59 AM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


WaPo:
Update, 9:55 p.m.: In an interview late Thursday with The Washington Post, Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski said, "Mr. Trump was asked about training camps. Mr. Trump answered the question and said, ‘If there are any, we will fix it.’ He said, ‘I will look into it.’ The question was specifically about training camps.

"The media wants to make this issue about Obama. The bigger issue is that Obama is waging a war against Christians in this country. They need support and their religious liberty is at stake," he added.

When asked whether Trump agrees with the questioner and believes that President Obama is a Muslim, Lewandowski said, "I don’t speak for Mr. Trump." He said "it’s up to the media" if they "want to make this about Obama."
I'm just his campaign manager, why should I be able to explain what his positions are? But, ya know...Obama is waging war against Christianity.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:18 AM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Henry Giroux thinks it's a trauma reaction.

The concepts that now guide our understanding of American society are dominated by a corporate induced linguistic and authoritarian model that brings ruin to language, politics and democracy itself.

Article at Tikkun

Could somebody please boost fund those mdma and psilocybin PTSD clinical trials?
posted by bukvich at 6:05 AM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Lewandowski said, "I don’t speak for Mr. Trump."
This attitude is what was so striking about Goertz's (Tana, not Tanya, I see, ex-spokesperson for the Bedazzler) appearance. Besides appearing to be scared shitless just being there, her unwillingness to speak for her candidate or his message, in fact, her unwillingness to do anything but announce the arrival of Mr. Trump, the love his people have for him, and the coming of his puissant rule was strange even by the standards of the hackiest of campaign hackery. It was all more Baghdad Bob or even Jim Jones. I half expected her to suddenly carve a "T" in her forehead.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:48 AM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]




Justinian: "untill the pillaging began"

Dammit, now I have that Led Zeppelin song stuck in my head.
posted by octothorpe at 9:31 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


It was all more Baghdad Bob or even Jim Jones. I half expected her to suddenly carve a "T" in her forehead.

What if she bedazzled one on there
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:32 AM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


David Brooks:
That’s where Carly Fiorina and Marco Rubio come in. So far, Fiorina has looked like the most impressive candidate. She has a genius for creating signature moments. (“If you want to stump a Democrat, ask them to name an accomplishment of Mrs. Clinton’s.”) But her spotty record at Hewlett-Packard probably means she can’t start at the top of the ticket.

Rubio is young and thus uncorrupted, and he is a genius at relating policy depth in a way that is personal. He has clarity of mind and can sum up a complex subject — Russia, the Middle East — in a way that is comprehensible but not oversimplified.

This debate was one moment in time, but you can see the vectors of where this campaign is headed. This is no longer Bob Dole’s or George H.W. Bush’s G.O.P. But it’s not going to completely lose its mind, either.

It’s going to be somewhat the same, but edgier and more renegade. Right now, Rubio, Fiorina and maybe Chris Christie are best positioned to occupy that space.
Rubio, Fiorina and Christie are the sane Republicans?
posted by octothorpe at 9:42 AM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Fiorina is touted as the "winner" of this debate because she is the one who has spent the least amount of time in the media spotlight so far.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:53 AM on September 18, 2015


Rubio, Fiorina and Christie are the sane Republicans?

No, Brooks is a dishonest one. His job is making Republican insanity seem reasonable.
posted by Gelatin at 10:15 AM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]


"This is no longer Bob Dole’s or George H.W. Bush’s G.O.P. But it’s not going to completely lose its mind, either."
I'd like to sing a little tune I call "David Brooks whistles past the graveyard."

If I had the money, I'd hire people to follow Trump around and ask him increasingly insane questions, just to watch his response. Like "Mr. Trump! When will you arrest Obama for Satanic ritual abuse?" Or "Mr. Trump! What are you going to do about the alien races currently living beneath Walmarts and other big box stores?" Or "Mr. Trump! When will you stop American fast food chains from selling human baby meat?" He'd probably give the same non-committal answer to all of them: "Right! The smartest people in the world work for me. We're ... we're gonna look into all that!" I mean, how could he even distinguish it from all the rest of the daily nonsense?
posted by octobersurprise at 10:23 AM on September 18, 2015 [14 favorites]


No, Brooks is a dishonest one.

As demonstrated by his use of the phrase "Rubio... is a genius."
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:24 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


David Brooks only exists to issue proclamations that, "No no, the Republicans are the Grown-Ups, really, see, Even the Reasonable David Brooks doesn't believe they're that crazy" every time the Overton Window gets shoved violently to the right.

When President Trump or Rubio invades Iran or starts conducting house to house no-knock raids looking for illegal immigrants, never fear, David Brooks will be there the next day with his staid blessing of such imminently reasonable and Serious policies. Because that's his literal job function.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:53 AM on September 18, 2015 [14 favorites]


a while ago I heard some egghead interviewed about politics and the question was put to him 'well David Brooks claims that blah blah blah (something positive about Romney)' and the egghead laughed softly and said something like, 'well, David's working hard for his paycheck' and this was before Brooks got all weirdly introspective and it was much more obvious that he was a hack and henceforth the comment felt like the sick burn that Brooks had deserved for a while
posted by angrycat at 12:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [6 favorites]


'egghead'? What are you, an Archie cartoon from the 1960s?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:04 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Via ovicapitum dura est.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


no I'm an Adlai Stevenson supporter
posted by angrycat at 4:08 PM on September 18, 2015 [6 favorites]




Fiorina is touted as the "winner" of this debate because she is the one who has spent the least amount of time in the media spotlight so far.

I think she straight up won. She got the loudest cheers and had the best moments. She only took hits on facts (nobody cares) and her record at HP, which she can't really do anything about anyway.

I think the attempts to portray her as being set up by the establishment or the media is just sore loser stuff coming out of the other candidates camps. Like the changing the rules thing. Yeah, they changed the rules, but it wasn't to get someone on stage to counter trump. It was because if she was off the stage there would have been three candidates on it polling lower than her right now. The rules as set up before were dumb. They didn't allow for the changing landscape since the previous debate to be appreciated.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:18 PM on September 18, 2015


That Fiorina did as well as she did in her 2010 senate run should scare anyone who doesn't want fail-up corporate or Republican leadership. She handily won the Republican Primary then against better candidates, and a 10% loss against an incumbent Democrat in California (where Democrats have a 15%+ party registration advantage and independents tend to lean D) is a competitive showing. And this when there's a small army of tens of thousands of former HP employees who have considerable reason to actively hate her (along with the tech industry at large).

I don't understand why anyone thinks she's appealing, and it is my sincere hope this is her last failed attempt at any public office, but I think it wouldn't be smart to underestimate her.
posted by weston at 4:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Vote Adlai!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:49 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]




With the next president likely to nominate as many as 3-4 justices losing the white and congress could be massive blows to the Republicans.

I know what you meant in the emphasized bit, but wow, is it accurate on several levels.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:43 PM on September 18, 2015


Yeah, they changed the rules, but it wasn't to get someone on stage to counter trump. It was because if she was off the stage there would have been three candidates on it polling lower than her right now.

Let's face it: They got her up on the stage because she's the only right-winger running who happens to be a woman, and the GOP is cynically trying to reach out to women voters they actively hate. Hey, we can't be so bad if we're propping a token female up on the stage, right? And she's kryptonite for Trump, so that's just gravy for the Murdochs, Adelsons and Kochs who want to buy a better product.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:21 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


No, she's up on the stage because of her own campaign accomplishments leading to her being high enough in the polls to make it unjustifiable to keep her off it.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


"It's very telling that ten years after [Fiorina] was fired, she's never been offered a job to be chief executive at any company... She sliced shareholder worth in half... She made people poorer; she made herself richer... She shoots the messenger."

It seems highly unlikely that she is propped up in this race because of any kind of leadership competence on her part. And given the clown car parade the GOP is running, if she's leading a few other people in polls, one should perhaps consider the qualities of who she's ahead of — or their apparent lack thereof.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:20 AM on September 19, 2015


I'm not saying she's a good candidate, I'm saying her campaign has gained in the polls to the point where it would be ridiculous to keep her off the debate stage. This is mainly because she did well at the last 2nd tier debate. She did it. Give her some props instead of viewing her like a pawn.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:40 AM on September 19, 2015 [3 favorites]




I'm not saying she's a good candidate, I'm saying her campaign has gained in the polls to the point where it would be ridiculous to keep her off the debate stage. This is mainly because she did well at the last 2nd tier debate. She did it. Give her some props instead of viewing her like a pawn.

It's kind of both. She's done well enough to force her own promotion to official GOP token/pawn status. Now her task will be to break out of that pigeonhole. Possibly by rescuing the former-Romney-supporter faction of the party from their Trump slump more effectively than ¡Jeb! .
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:03 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


When I see "Jeb!" written that way, "¡Jeb!", I can 't help but read it as a Spanish word, /heb/. It also comes with a flamenco throw of the arms and snap of the fingers. It's one of the few things that have made me smile about the current Republican contest.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:57 AM on September 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


And now, Ben Carson has come out and said that he feels a Muslim should not be president because Islam is "incompatible with the Constitution". I suppose I'm just going to have to file this along with the million or so other instances in recent years where a Christian politician who is overtly pushing for fundamentalist Christian doctrine to take precedence over the civil law of this nation is nonetheless terribly worried that the relatively tiny Muslim population of the US is going to violently overthrow the government and replace the civil law of the nation with their own doctrinal law.

I swear, it's like a person stabbing you in the gut and then saying "you know, I'm really getting concerned about all the violence in this country these days perpetrated by people who are different from me..."
posted by tocts at 8:52 AM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Are Democrats and Republicans talking about the same country?

Democrats:"Centrist fixes to severe economic and social problems" (Read in JFK-voice)

Republicans: *Man hits self repeatedly in face with star-spangled shoe*
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:54 AM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


> it's like a person stabbing you in the gut and then saying "you know, I'm really getting concerned about all the violence in this country these days perpetrated by people who are different from me..."

Well sure, but if you just let them stab you in a gut a few times you'll find that their gut-stabs are really by far the superior choice over the Muslim kind (they use scimitars and man do those things hurt.) What other realistic alternative are you proposing, are you thinking of trying not getting stabbed in the gut at all? Because that sounds pretty wacko to me, I mean what's the practical difference between that and communism?
posted by contraption at 11:19 AM on September 20, 2015




Carly Fiorina Aims to Foil Attacks on Her Record as a C.E.O.

Mrs. Fiorina seemed poised to offer Ms. Boxer a vigorous challenge in 2010. Democrats were under siege in the midterm elections, and Mrs. Fiorina was an engaging outsider who spoke eloquently about her rise from secretary to C.E.O. and about surviving breast cancer.

“We were very concerned about Carly Fiorina when she first got into this race,’’ said Rose Kapolczynski, a veteran Democratic operative and the longtime campaign manager for Ms. Boxer. “She is a very compelling personality, she’s a terrific performer on the political stage.”

But after Mrs. Fiorina emerged from a relatively smooth primary (with the exception of a bizarre ad that portrayed her opponent as a demonic sheep [relevant Metafilter post, ed.]), the Boxer campaign unleashed attacks on her HP record. The barrage came against the backdrop of the state’s more than 12 percent unemployment rate.

In one ad, called “Outsourced,” footage showed Mrs. Fiorina defending sending jobs overseas. “When you’re talking about massive layoffs, which we did, perhaps the work needs to be done somewhere else,” she said.

In another, called “Workers,” former HP employees spoke solemnly into the camera. “I had to pack my bags, and I was out the door that night,” said Larry, who worked at HP for 10 years. Another victim of the layoffs, Teri, said, “We even had to train our replacements.” (Mrs. Fiorina has said she saved 80,000 positions.)

Jim Margolis, the ad maker for the Boxer campaign, is now a senior media adviser to Hillary Rodham Clinton.

“People don’t know her yet,” Ms. Boxer said in an interview before last week’s debate. “What they’ll understand pretty quickly is that she is the face of income inequality and Wall Street greed.”

posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:45 PM on September 20, 2015


I really thought that Walker was going to be the one to worry about, I'm kind of amazed at how poorly he's doing. I can't stand the guy but he seemed to be on of the candidates that the establishment was really backing but I guess that kind of support doesn't matter as much in this election.
posted by octothorpe at 2:30 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


You know, this election has been kind of amazing to watch so far, because it's the first one where the schism is really showing: I've been noticing for a few years that there has been a growing split between the world (or narrative or etc.) that the media presents us, and the world that we actually inhabit. I mean, that split is always there, it's called reality, but for most of my adult life it was imperceptible to most because media was skillfully used to make actual reality match the narrative.

But with the internet, we're all having our own conversations, choosing our media, making our own (e.g. Twitter), and so on. When I noticed early on that all the talk talk talk about Donald Trump kept showing him in a room with reporters, and that when Bernie Sanders would show up somewhere in real life, 10-20,000 people turned out, I realized that the difference between the real world people create through our actual behavior and the world the media narrative tries (intentionally or not) to create, is becoming very obvious, too obvious to miss.

Scott Walker fell right into the open gap. He was one of the billionaire darlings, but those people can't just be created like they used to. Too much real life keeps seeping into the narrative, spoiling it.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:39 PM on September 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


I am going to go ahead and say something right hear nobody is going to like or believe: I think there is a very real chance, probably greater than 50-50, that the general will be Trump v. Sanders.

Before you choke yourself laughing let me tell a little story. Back in 1991 racist Klanmeister David Duke ran for governor of Louisiana. Against him were Edwin Edwards, then not-yet-convicted but well-known crook and snore-inducing Republican incumbent Buddy Roemer. As soon as the field shook out I announced that there would be a Duke-Edwards runoff and Edwards would return to the governor's mansion.

NOBODY believed me. About half of everyone firmly believed the runoff would be Duke-Roemer and Roemer would win, and about half firmly believed the runoff would be Edwards-Roemer and Roemer would win. Roemer was by far the least objectionable candidate and in any sane electoral system would have won.

But here's the problem: In Louisiana, about 35% of the population would vote for Edwin Edwards if he was running against Jesus Christ himself. (They still would today, conviction and prison time and all.) And about 35% would vote for Duke just as fervently. Since those are not the same people, simple math does not leave another 35% to put Roemer in the runoff.

Needless to say it went off just as I predicted almost a year before, Duke-Edwards and all the good people held their noses and voted for the crook because it was important.

In 1987 I saw Obama being the Dem nominee because Hillary's campaign team were treating the primary as if it was winner-take-all like the general, but for the Democrats it's not; delegates are awarded by district and even a blood red state or a solid HIllary state will send some delegates to the convention. Obama had an aggressive strategy of courting everyone he could while the Clinton team shrugged and assumed she'd walk off with it on Super Tuesday. And she did walk off with Super Tuesday, but Obama still got 40% here and 35% there and it wasn't enough to overcome the massive delegate lead Obama had built in the earlier primaries.

My biggest objection to Hillary as a candidate is still her mishandling of the 1988 election. It's a very simple math thing a lot of people saw and she had plenty of time to take action. That does not say good things to me about how she might handle the affairs of the country. But I digress.

Today, short of a Huey Long solution Trump is the Republican nominee. He is a monster the likes of which the party bosses have never dealt with before and they have no way to stop him without using a bullet. Their only hope is that he gets bored when he realizes he might actually win and have to live in a two-storey house and do some work. At this point I don't see that happening though. The Presidency is a shiny thing the Donald has decided he wants to hold in his hand.

And it's early days but so far Hillary seems to be making exactly the kind of mistakes -- if anything even worse -- dealing with Sanders that she made dealing with Obama. She is of course a perfectly acceptable candidate and I'll gladly vote for her if she somehow gets the nomination, but she is watching the Bernie train roll past with obvious question marks in her eyes and no idea what to do about it. Colbert nailed it when he said "the last time this happened to her" and Sanders' pic was replaced with Obama's. Sanders and Obama aren't the same but they both draw energy from populist appeal; if anything, Sanders does it better than Obama. And Clinton hasn't learned a damn thing about how to counter it.

Then, of course, Sanders annihilates Trump in the general, because duh. Republicans are already peeling off to Sanders and the primaries haven't even started yet. The 35% who will vote for Trump despite anything aren't enough to get him past a normal candidate like Hillary, much less someone who has the kind of momentum that could knock Hillary out of the race.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:38 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Today, short of a Huey Long solution Trump is the Republican nominee.

From your lips to God's ears, but I really don't see it happening. Trump is leading in polls in large part because the not-Trump vote is split across more than a dozen candidates. When the Iowa and New Hampshire contests arrive, the candidates will be emptying their bank accounts to try to get as good of a showing as they can in those, after which point the ones that come in sixth and ninth and twelfth place will recognize they're not going to be one of the not-Trump finalists, and, more importantly, they're broke.

So they drop out, and within a couple of weeks at most you've probably got a four or five way race at most for the not-Trump vote, with the establishment money will be lining up behind one or maybe two of those. How many votes do you think Trump's going to pick up from a former Bobby Jindal, Mike Huckabee, or Rick Santorum voter? There's just no way this many candidates can split the not-Trump vote for as long as it would take to get to the later contests, and once a few of those 10-15% slivers of the pie chart are working together to take Trump down, he's pretty much dead.

Trump can compete as long as he wants to light his money on fire, but once the field narrows, I just can't see him winning more than a handful of delegates. But yeah, as a Sanders supporter, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:32 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Today, short of a Huey Long solution Trump is the Republican nominee. He is a monster the likes of which the party bosses have never dealt with before

LOL omg no, no, no. This is just silly. Trump was never a serious candidate and the collapse of his little summer surge is already starting.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:56 PM on September 20, 2015


Bringer Tom: "In 1987 I saw Obama being the Dem nominee because Hillary's campaign team were treating the primary as if it was winner-take-all like the general [...]

My biggest objection to Hillary as a candidate is still her mishandling of the 1988 election. It's a very simple math thing a lot of people saw and she had plenty of time to take action.
"

Chronic brain fart, or dispatch from an alternate Earth where Trump v. Sanders is probable and Obama has been president for 27 years?
posted by Rhaomi at 6:07 PM on September 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


As soon as the field shook out I announced that there would be a Duke-Edwards runoff and Edwards would return to the governor's mansion ... NOBODY believed me.

Yeah, not to question your prognosticatory skills here, but I lived in New Orleans then and I don't recall many people thinking that Roemer (who was already regarded as a well-meaning but inept politician) ever had much of a chance to begin with. As I recall, Roemer had the support of good government moderate Republicans and a slice of the white liberal vote and anyone who knew anything about Louisiana politics knew what that was worth.

Re: Trump, it's impossible to say anything with any certainty before the Iowa vote, but a Trump nomination still looks unlikely. Mostly because (as someone points out) anywhere from 60-70% of Republican voters don't want Trump. Could that change? Maybe. But given the rest of Trump's negatives, the reasons to think so are few.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:46 PM on September 20, 2015


The fact that 60%+ of Republicans don't want Trump is important, of course, but this gets us down to the mechanics of the Republican nomination in the same way that HilBama did in 2008 on the Dem side. How does it pan out if there's a brokered convention? This is an absolute nightmare for the party for other reasons, because it will leave a lot of bad blood. In particular, what will those Trump supporters do in the general election after their candidate is drop-kicked?

The thing is, Trump doesn't actually have to spend any money to stay on top in the primary. He's a fucking reality show host and he knows how to play an audience. He's Reagan fucking squared in that regard, but Reagan was a good little actor who did what his corporate masters told him to and Trump is an egomaniacal wild card. And the egomania is part of his appeal.

1987-1988 -- yeah getting old sucks. Totally did not see those right in my face. You know what I meant though.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:56 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Interviews with
1,006 adult Americans conducted by telephone by ORC International on September 17-19, 2015.
I'm going to read a list of people who may be running in the Republican primaries for president in 2016. After I read all the names, please tell me which of those candidates you would be most likely to support for the Republican nomination for president in 2016
...
Santorum 1%
Gilmore *
Graham *
Jindal *
Pataki *
Walker *
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:55 PM on September 20, 2015


I still think that it's going to be Clinton vs Bush in the general.
posted by octothorpe at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2015


The money makes it hard to see it any other way. Which is disappointing on a multitude of levels.
posted by phearlez at 9:02 PM on September 20, 2015


"Brokered convention" comes up every four years, because it would be every political reporter's' fantasy. And then it never, ever happens.

It won't happen this time, either.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:27 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Seriously. Most of the election news we'll hear over the next 6-8 months will just be political reporter fanfic, hoping others will get as excited about their favorite OTP as they are.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:07 PM on September 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Bush is sitting in single digits. What's the path to the nomination? Are the Trump/Carson voters really going to jump to Bush?
posted by Justinian at 10:17 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Brokered convention" comes up every four years, because it would be every political reporter's' fantasy. And then it never, ever happens.

That's because the party leaders and money people pick their horse and back it. That isn't going to happen this year though. Remember that would be the same party leaders who can't keep their idiot wing in Congress from threatening to shut down the government every time a fly lands on their plate.

At this point the only person who has a non-trivial chance to assemble a majority of delegates before the convention is Trump. Bush is not going to be the nominee. Against any of the top five or six others he comes across as a corporate droid. In the debates he flopped hard, and it was not through lack of opportunity.

The party bosses have lost control of the process and the decision is ultimately going to be made by the most fanatical voters who are willing to show up for a caucus or primary. Those are the people who like Trump. They voted in the government shutdown idiots. They are mad at the party bosses for not giving them any ponies when they had the Presidency and both houses of Congress, and dammit they're ready to upset the cart to put in someone who will. Or at least says they will whether they realistically can or not.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:22 AM on September 21, 2015


Happy to wager you $20 that it won't be Trump. I'll wager another $20 that it will be Jeb.
posted by phearlez at 6:31 AM on September 21, 2015


Justinian: "Bush is sitting in single digits. What's the path to the nomination? Are the Trump/Carson voters really going to jump to Bush?"

Sure. Republicans have shown over and over again how quickly they can pivot. Tons of right-wing bloggers and commenters railed against Romney four years ago but dutifully fell in behind him when he got the nomination. Maybe this time is different but it's been a long time since Republicans nominated anyone but the default establishment candidate.
posted by octothorpe at 7:45 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jamelle Bouie: Ben Carson Is the Most Extreme Candidate in the Race
Carson, the doctor, is a brilliant pediatric neurosurgeon. Carson, the candidate, is a crank—a creature of deep suspicion and conspiratorial thinking, who gives the mainstream a rare glimpse into the American Negative Zone of far-right fear and fetid fever dreams. There, anti-Muslim prejudice is common and unapologetic while Carson’s claim—that Islam is inherently anti-American—is axiomatic. Given his political background, his remarks were typical, if not even expected. (It almost goes without saying that there’s an irony in Carson’s bigotry: When he was a child, his ideological antecedents attacked civil rights activists with the same anger and contempt.)

If his comments surprised, it’s because of his style. Carson’s gentle affect is his greatest asset; it soothes listeners and obscures the degree to which he’s the most extreme candidate in the race. With that said, he’s a Kessel Run away from the Republican nomination. Barring the catastrophic collapse of every other “establishment” or conventional candidate, he has little chance of becoming the GOP nominee, much less president. But that’s no consolation.

Right now, the top candidates in the Republican primary are a nativist demagogue and a right-wing paranoiac. They’re channeling and emboldening the worst impulses in American politics, and winning the polls because of it. They will fall, but not before making a dangerous, and potentially enduring, mark on our politics.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


At this point the only person who has a non-trivial chance to assemble a majority of delegates before the convention is Trump

It takes an extraordinary predictive talent to assert this before the results of a single primary are in.

Bush is sitting in single digits. What's the path to the nomination?

I don't know. I doubt that anyone does. I imagine the most likely path looks something like McCain's or Romney's. Bush weathers his single digit numbers with money and name until Gilmore, Graham, Huckabee, Jindal, Pataki drop out, possibly before Iowa, then wins or shows strongly in Iowa, NH, and SC, before slogging through the rest of the primaries with one or two challengers. Ultimately, Bush is nominated not because he's anyone's favorite, but because he's everyone's second, third or fourth favorite. Will that happen? Who knows? But since it has happened before, it doesn't seem especially far-fetched to think it could happen again. And it certainly isn't more unimaginable than the scenario where Trump and his high negatives, suspiciously weak ground organization, and mere plurality of supporters take a nomination from a party that distrusts him.

Are the Trump/Carson voters really going to jump to Bush?

Some will, I imagine, and some won't. But haven't seen any evidence to suggest that Trump/Carson voters are less likely to grudgingly vote for Bush than Santorum/Huckabee/Gingrich voters were to vote for Romney.

Dunno, the key argument behind this notion of Trump's inevitability seems to be that Trump is a "revolutionary" figure. The system's broken, the voters have wrested the primaries away from the bosses, and having done so, will vote Trump in greater and greater numbers. But not only does this beg the question, there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it. At this point it remains little more than a fear or a hope.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:03 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Republicans have shown over and over again how quickly they can pivot. Tons of right-wing bloggers and commenters railed against Romney four years ago but dutifully fell in behind him when he got the nomination.

But the voters stayed home in droves. Romney and McCain didn't get as many votes (in absolute numbers) as GWB did in 2004, and that's why they lost.
posted by Etrigan at 8:17 AM on September 21, 2015


At this point, there's a rumor that the Walker campaign has been laying off staffers. His only hope (and strategy) is to win Iowa. I'm kind of curious how much money he has left.
posted by drezdn at 8:19 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Etrigan: "But the voters stayed home in droves. Romney and McCain didn't get as many votes (in absolute numbers) as GWB did in 2004, and that's why they lost."

Well, that would be good thing, right? I think that demographics are really going to bite any Republican nominee in the ass this time. Trump has ensured that zero Hispanics and probably a very low number of Asians will vote 'R' in 2016 and the anti-reproductive rights is going to backfire seriously with women voters. I don't see a path for anyone who gets the Republican nomination to win in the general.
posted by octothorpe at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2015


At this point, there's a rumor that the Walker campaign has been laying off staffers.

From your lips to god's ears! Reading the words "Scott Walker's poll numbers near zero" on the front page of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel [cw: smug weasel-face] thrills me like nothing else. I still can't really believe the state of the clown car trainwreck that is the current slate of GOP nominees, but watching the political career of this one specific bastard as it tailspins into abject failure is making my heart sing a joyful, joyful song.
posted by divined by radio at 8:40 AM on September 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


Jamelle Bouie: Ben Carson Is the Most Extreme Candidate in the Race

D'oh! Carson Campaign Simultaneously Walks Back and Doubles Down on Muslim Remarks

I'm seeing a lot of this "staffers say one thing, candidate says the opposite" tactic being used on the GOP side. Trump's a master of it, and now Carson's doing it too. The candidate gets the benefit of the base hearing what they want to hear, while others who read the denials / walk-backs might be fooled into thinking the candidate is reasonable. I guess it works for as long as it takes for someone in the press to ask the candidate himself to resolve the discrepancy, but why ever would they do that?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:46 AM on September 21, 2015


Interestingly, my local newspaper's token conservative columnist who can always be relied upon to regurgitate whatever the current Republican talking points are, wrote a nasty anti-Trump column yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more of that to start coming out of the right in the coming weeks.
posted by octothorpe at 8:59 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it's hard to determine for sure whether this is a tactic or simply a sloppy bunch of clowns.
posted by phearlez at 8:59 AM on September 21, 2015


Oh God, octothorpe, Kelly is the worst.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:28 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't know anything about Kelly, but he knows how to pick a quote:
But “dealing with Trump as a conservative is like dating a hot, crazy stripper who keeps eyeing your wallet that’s sitting on the bureau,” said columnist Kurt Schlichter.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:33 AM on September 21, 2015


BTW, Josh Marshall thinks that Jeb! is done. He sure is bad at running for office, though I'm not sure he's bad enough to completely eliminate him.

But if I accept his claim, and had to put down a 20 right now, I'd put it on Rubio. He doesn't froth at the mouth like Christie, you wouldn't be afraid to leave him alone with your 19 year-old daughter like you would with Trump, but he still voices enough of the right wing social points (well, I guess they all do). He also advocates an insane and paranoid enough foreign policy to satisfy the base and the DoD contract fans. I had expected Walker be making a decent play, but for reasons I don't really understand it just doesn't seem to be happening for him this time.

Anyone else want to argue their current most likely? (Bringer Tom, I think we already know yours. ;-)
posted by benito.strauss at 9:43 AM on September 21, 2015


Dunno. I still don't see a path for *anybody*. I mean, I hear you on Rubio, but he doesn't seem to be setting the world afire, and has stumbled a number of times in his brief career.

Can't they dig up the corpse of Wendell Willkie, and run him?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:56 AM on September 21, 2015


Where have you gone, Willard Romney, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you...
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Chrysostom, I agree that none of them should find a way to the nomination. If it were a math equation, "No valid solution" would be a great answer. But we can be pretty damn certain that there will be a Republican candidate for the 2016 presidential election, so we have to break out our more subtle thinking caps to figure out this one.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:01 AM on September 21, 2015


I had expected Walker be making a decent play, but for reasons I don't really understand it just doesn't seem to be happening for him this time.

This seems to have been made opaque to people outside of Wisconsin, but Walker's candidacy was never anything but a paper tiger. It was hand-assembled by our local right-wing rag "news"paper (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel), our local right-wing radio nutbars (Charlie Sykes and Mark Belling), and the trio of counties surrounding damnably liberal Milwaukee (Waukesha, Washington, and Ozaukee); only much later in the game was it picked up and funded by Koch Industries.

Walker is nothing but the physical manifestation of a list of talking points created by his "pro-business," relentlessly union-busting intellectual betters and blandly regurgitated through the weasel-faced mask of a Guy Whitey Corngood suit. There's no "there" there.

Does anyone remember the MeFi comment where the next GOP nominee was posited to be a literal monster truck or bulldozer or something, painted to resemble an American flag, maybe with flamethrowers mounted to the sides? I can't find it for the life of me, but even if I'm imagining it, that's who my money's on.
posted by divined by radio at 10:07 AM on September 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


My suspicion is that at this point, Graham, Jindal, Santorum, Perry, Walker, and Christie are dead men walking. I'd throw Paul in that category as well, because although he's polling better than the rest, that's after having done this before, and it seems like his share of the votes right now are basically the ones he was always going to get as the only self-declared Libertarian in the group.

I also suspect (hope?) that Trump and Carson are going to implode. We may even be watching Carson's implosion as we speak, with all this negative press about his comments regarding Muslims. We'll see.

Bush, I think, is done. He's got a lot of money, but to be doing this badly with that much money and that much name recognition is a very bad sign. I think he could have been the presumptive nominee (hell, he was the presumptive nominee), but he hasn't really managed to follow through on that. I think if/when Trump and Carson fall apart, Bush isn't going to be the second choice for a lot of their supporters.

That basically leaves the middle of the pack right now: Rubio, Cruz, Fiorina, Huckabee, and Kasich. I would be shocked if Fiorina gets the nomination even with her recent performance, because I think her business record is something she's never going to truly get away from. Plus, I mean, sexism. Maybe a VP choice for the right candidate, but probably not the top of the ticket.

For the rest, it's hard to say. My oft-incorrect gut says that Cruz and Huckabee aren't gonna seal the deal, so my money at this point is split between Kasich and Rubio.
posted by tocts at 10:20 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


"The Importance of Donald Trump", by Frank Rich, New York magazine

The author embraces the troll, and explains why he is good for American democracy

Rich is co-executive producer of the HBO political comedy series Veep.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:24 AM on September 21, 2015


> Walker is nothing but the physical manifestation of a list of talking points created by his "pro-business," relentlessly union-busting intellectual betters and blandly regurgitated through the weasel-faced mask of a Guy Whitey Corngood suit.

See, that's why I thought he had a chance.

But seriously, for some reason this was good enough to get him elected Governor, but the strategy just hasn't worked nationally. Do you have any local insight, divined by radio, why that might be? It looks like it won't affect who the eventual nominee will be, but I still think it's an interesting political question
posted by benito.strauss at 10:39 AM on September 21, 2015


benito.strauss: Do you have any local insight, divined by radio, why that might be?

Here's dbr's excellent FPP on the subject.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:44 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wow.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:59 AM on September 21, 2015


Anyone else want to argue their current most likely?

Oddschecker still have Jeb! as favorite to be the GOP nominee, with (rough) average odds of 7/4 (36% chance). Trump is second with average 3/1 odds (25%) and Rubio is third with average 5/1 odds (16%). I'm sticking with my position that Jeb! will be the nominee because he's establishment and safe for the party, and has the most endorsements. If I had to pick a second choice it would be Rubio. I still contend that there's no chance in hell for Trump. And Walker seems to be out of the race as well (thank god).
posted by triggerfinger at 11:01 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, understood ONE of these people will get the nom, benito.strauss. It's just that I think there's really no way to predict at this point who it is. I could come up with a plausible story for 5 or 6 of the candidates, and just as easily come up with reasons why it wouldn't happen.

Truth is stranger than fiction, truly.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:02 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think looking at the unfavorables in the last linked poll and its movement - or not - is going to be a lot more meaningful for any prognostication than looking at who the hot media draw is at any given moment. And while the people who show up for rallies or even primaries may not be looking at what impact the various candidates have on enthusiasm to cast a vote, the people writing the checks sure do.

And I think you ignore how much those people can move things come an actual primary or election at your own peril.
posted by phearlez at 11:20 AM on September 21, 2015


Isn't a rising (if not yet prevailing) narrative that this will be the election where the convention of big money is shaken by populist sentiment and force of personality?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:22 PM on September 21, 2015


Walker has a press conference scheduled at 5 pm in Madison, with no subject announced.
posted by drezdn at 1:15 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


NYTimes: Scott Walker said to be quitting presidential race

As somebody who harbored real fears about Walker uniting the shittiest parts of the party and replicating his governorship on a national scale, I have to say this is pretty incredible.
posted by Rhaomi at 1:16 PM on September 21, 2015 [9 favorites]


Don't exhale too quickly -- he would still be a valuable VP choice, especially if he doesn't spend the next eleven months running down the eventual nominee.
posted by Etrigan at 1:22 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ding dong, the witch is 11.765% dead.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:23 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, I am straight-up crying with joy at my desk. I hear birds chirping, a warm breeze is blowing, and starlight is twinkling all around me. YEAH!
posted by divined by radio at 1:25 PM on September 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


Don't exhale too quickly -- he would still be a valuable VP choice, especially if he doesn't spend the next eleven months running down the eventual nominee.

I don't think he's a likely VP pick. Wisconsin doesn't have that much to offer electorally. Walker isn't an effective national campaigner, and the Republicans already had a Wisconsin VP candidate four years ago.
posted by drezdn at 1:26 PM on September 21, 2015


Dang it. No more shares of "No Walker" to be had on PredictIt. Also: In time for the equinox, the Summer of Trump wanes

Who woulda thunk it.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:27 PM on September 21, 2015


Your joy brings me joy, drb! You sound like I felt when Warren beat Scott Brown, and we only had to put up with him for three years.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:31 PM on September 21, 2015


I really think this was the best shot Walker would ever have. The head of the RNC is a friend from back in the day. The 2011 protests and recall are still somewhat fresh in people's minds and Walker can take credit for the Obama economy.

He'll probably keep trying for the presidency (he's one of those guys who think it's their destiny), but I'm not sure how he could end up there unless he re-invents himself.
posted by drezdn at 1:31 PM on September 21, 2015


Walker also managed to burn someone bridges with the (Republican) state legislature on the campaign trail. He can probably repair them, but it's going to be an awkward few years.
posted by drezdn at 1:41 PM on September 21, 2015






I keep hearing that, but I don't know. Six debates seems like enough time to hear most of the views of a small field of candidates.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:26 PM on September 21, 2015


The Influence of Fiorina at Lucent, in Hindsight

Yet her celebrated tenure at Lucent has been clouded by what happened two years after she left in 1999. The once-highflying business worth more than $250 billion at its peak nearly collapsed in the face of an accounting scandal and the telecommunications bust. The company laid off 50,000 employees in 2001 alone. Today the company, after merging with Alcatel of France, is worth only about $10 billion.

Lucent, like some its rivals, artificially burnished its financial performance through vendor financing — lending money to customers so they could buy its products. In 2004, the company settled charges brought by the Securities and Exchange Commission that accused it of perpetrating a $1.1 billion accounting fraud.

“It’s unlikely she would have been considered for the HP job once it became clear that Lucent’s success had more to do with loose credit terms and creative accounting than any reinvention of the company as the Second Coming of Cisco,” Rakesh Khurana, a Harvard professor who studied Mrs. Fiorina’s tenure, said in “Backfire: Carly Fiorina’s High-Stakes Battle for the Soul of Hewlett-Packard,” a book by the financial journalist Peter Burrows.

posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:40 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I keep hearing that, but I don't know. Six debates seems like enough time to hear most of the views of a small field of candidates.

I think the headline is confusing, but the article clears it up: it's not about the absolute number of debates, exactly. It's about the DNC making a rule that would exclude Sanders from the DNC's own debates, if Sanders were to engage in another forum that the DNC considered to be a debate. Since Sanders is likely to do such a thing, and the DNC completely controls what Hillary does, in effect they're trying to push out Sanders from the "official" debates with childish rules they just pulled out of their asses.

This is also a useful reminder of how insane our 'official' debate structure is in this country.
posted by odinsdream at 6:25 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


This is also a useful reminder of how insane our 'official' debate structure is in this country.

Working backwards here, I think it's really more a reminder of how insane our two party system is, and the way it's baked into the laws of most states as if it's something that should be part of the underpinning of our government at all. At the risk of sounding more libertarian than I am, it consistently bugs me that the process of primary selection of party candidates is something done by state and local governments at cost to taxpayers to run.

It's about the DNC making a rule that would exclude Sanders from the DNC's own debates, if Sanders were to engage in another forum that the DNC considered to be a debate. Since Sanders is likely to do such a thing, and the DNC completely controls what Hillary does, in effect they're trying to push out Sanders from the "official" debates with childish rules they just pulled out of their asses.

I'm not going to defend a rule I think is dopey, but unless Sanders' fortunes take a notable nosedive there's simply no way this rule would be adhered to. So worrying about how it applies to him seems pointless. To attempt to exclude Sanders for this reason would be akin to the DNC putting a gun to its own head and pulling the trigger. He is far too popular and of interest to the people the DNC needs to turn out in November for them to run a clownshow debate that only features Clinton and Novotes O'Malley.

As an indicator of how far up its own ass the DNC is? Sure, it's a superb indicator. But I guess I am too cynical about the parties to get too exercised by it. It's cut from the same cloth as loyalty oaths and a manifestation of this desire of the machine to get everyone to pledge themselves to the machine. It's a gross reminder that the parties want to talk about their interest in everyone out of one side of their mouth while demanding loyalty out of the other, even after they sell constituent groups down the river.
posted by phearlez at 10:18 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm disappointed that no one took look at the Frank Rich article. The man was a drama critic, and is a dramatist, and it shows. Fierce critiques have already ensued:

"Frank Rich Takes A Few Sips of the Trump Kool-Aid", by Steve M, No More Mister Nice Blog

"Frank Rich Thinks Donald Trump Will Fix Campaign Finance Law" by Charles P. Pierce, Esquire
posted by Apocryphon at 10:32 AM on September 22, 2015


Donald Trump writes the Bible.
posted by Wordshore at 8:09 AM on September 23, 2015


> I'm disappointed that no one took look at the Frank Rich article.

It looked like one of those "now that things have gotten this bad we'll finally fix them" pieces. I've seen too many of those situations where we don't fix them to bother with that argument yet again.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:23 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Rich is usually a pretty smart political writer but he's way off the rails on this.
posted by octothorpe at 8:26 AM on September 23, 2015


I'm disappointed that no one took look at the Frank Rich article.

I did. But it was such a generic #Slatepitch that comment seemed pointless.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:27 AM on September 23, 2015


"It looked like one of those "now that things have gotten this bad we'll finally fix them" pieces. "

Surely THIS....

posted by Chrysostom at 10:13 AM on September 23, 2015


A look at Republican presidential candidate's teeth via reddit - hosted on Imgur, possible exploit/infil threat
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:22 AM on September 23, 2015






Anyone who thinks Trump has no chance of being the nominee needs to seriously read that Vox "party" article. It lays out good documentation for all the little gut feelings that convinced me he should be taken seriously.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:13 PM on September 24, 2015




There were a couple interesting pieces on NPR this morning: Religion, Immigration Rhetoric Shows GOP Push To The Right, which mentioned Donald Trump's momentum is stalling, according to some recent polls, and the NPR piece ended by calling Pope Francis the "anti-Trump." My response: wouldn't that make him a solid Democrat, especially if the GOP is trying to embrace the furious (white) rage they've created.

Also from NPR: Muslim Republicans at odds with their party in Tennessee, if you're looking for something more from the GOP to get you going today (it worked for me on my morning drive, no need for coffee).
posted by filthy light thief at 7:11 AM on September 25, 2015


Holy shitsnacks: John Boehner will resign from Congress in October
In a recent interview with Politico, for instance, Boehner said he had gotten used to the demands of his job, but he didn't sound exactly happy about. "Garbage men get used to the smell of bad garbage. Prisoners learn how to become prisoners, all right?" Those are not the words of man who enjoys coming into work each day.

Boehner is also facing two difficult, and interrelated, challenges right now: many House Republicans want to shut the government down over defunding Planned Parenthood, and some House conservatives want to use an unusual parliamentary maneuver to launch a coup against Boehner. The problem for Boehner is that a shutdown would likely be a disaster for the Republican Party, but stopping a shutdown would make a coup against him more likely to succeed.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:19 AM on September 25, 2015


Boehner resignation thread here.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:32 AM on September 25, 2015


What I Learned Writing Trump's Biography - "My tour inside the peculiar mind of the GOP front-runner," Michael D'Antonio
Although his detractors are repulsed, Trump would say that in his aggressive pursuits he is a true expression of the American ideal. He does represent aspects of well-established cultural norms. Repeated studies have determined that Americans do value individualism more than other peoples and are more willing to call attention to themselves. We revere those who take risks in pursuit of the big score, even when they fail, and we tolerate wide gaps in wealth, health and even life expectancy to preserve our chance to become winners, no matter the odds. We are also inclined to brag and promote ourselves at a level that would be unseemly anywhere else. Donald Trump may blow his horn a little louder than other Americans, but he is playing the right tune.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:42 PM on September 25, 2015


...the NPR piece ended by calling Pope Francis the "anti-Trump."

Wait wait wait, conversely, shouldn't that also make Trump the anti...on second thought, never mind.
posted by happyroach at 5:04 PM on September 25, 2015


Antipope?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:55 PM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


well, following that hopefully he'll become world's biggest washed up superstar.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:57 AM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]




Ted Cruz distilled down to six seconds
posted by blueberry at 10:31 PM on September 28, 2015






Now let’s wrap this up all neat and pretty and stick a bow on it, shall we? Carly Fiorina has claimed, over and over and OVER AND OVER again, that she watched, with her own eye sockets, a video of an aborted fetus, left to die on a table while a cruel heartless bastard Planned Parenthood doctor talks about how best to murder it to death and seize its brain. Not a single one of those things is true. There’s no Planned Parenthood doctor plotting how to steal BRAINZ!!! There isn’t even an abortion. And this still has nothing to do with Planned Parenthood.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:02 PM on September 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Not Going Anywhere
I encountered the phenomenon up close at the first Republican debate, on Aug. 6 in Cleveland. I positioned myself in the post-­debate ‘‘spin room,’’ the area where campaign surrogates spew their customized nonsense to media types. The candidates themselves almost never venture in. But suddenly, at the end of the night, a literal stampede was rumbling toward a far corner of the room, where Trump had crashed this assembly of polite company. I have seen many press scrums, but never like this. It was scary. People were tripping, falling and being shoved out of the way. Cameras were dropped. What I saw was polite routines and traditions breaking down as the American political order reoriented itself around a new center of gravity. As the shouts and cries intensified, I found myself being drawn toward the bedlam.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:05 PM on September 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


Anonymous MD on twitter (via tonycpsu's link): This is UNQUESTIONABLY a miscarriage in a hospital, not an abortion in a clinic.
posted by homunculus at 5:29 PM on September 29, 2015


The Specter of Trump
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:54 AM on October 3, 2015




Trump: mass-shooting gunmen are 'sick as hell and geniuses in a certain way'

Jeb! Looked like he was taking a lead on awfulness on this one, but the Trumpster pulled out the stops.
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on October 4, 2015




Yeah, we have mutual agreement that they should understand science. It's just that a lot of Americans don't understand it either so they can't tell who does and doesn't.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:47 PM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


NYT: Aides Find Ben Carson’s Inflammatory Remarks Are Helping Him
Ever since Mr. Carson remarked on Sept. 20 that he did not think a Muslim should be president, then refused to retract the statement amid a furious blowback, his campaign has watched grass-roots support grow and donations pour in — and advisers have backtracked, deciding, in the words of one, to “let Carson be Carson.” ... [The Republican base sees] in Mr. Carson’s provocative comments a more palatable variation on the bombastic insults of Donald J. Trump.

Also, too: Frank Bruni in the NYT: You Will Be Hearing a Lot More About Marco Rubio.

And then there's Ted Cruz apparently beginning to show signs of life. We're basically screwed.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:10 PM on October 12, 2015


The Return of the Middle American Radical, John B. Judis
While con­duct­ing ex­tens­ive sur­veys of white voters in 1971 and again in 1975, War­ren iden­ti­fied a group who de­fied the usu­al par­tis­an and ideo­lo­gic­al di­vi­sions. These voters were not col­lege edu­cated; their in­come fell some­where in the middle or lower-middle range; and they primar­ily held skilled and semi-skilled blue-col­lar jobs or sales and cler­ic­al white-col­lar jobs. At the time, they made up about a quarter of the elect­or­ate. What dis­tin­guished them was their ideo­logy: It was neither con­ven­tion­ally lib­er­al nor con­ven­tion­ally con­ser­vat­ive, but in­stead re­volved around an in­tense con­vic­tion that the middle class was un­der siege from above and be­low.
War­ren called these voters Middle Amer­ic­an Rad­ic­als, or MARS. “MARS are dis­tinct in the depth of their feel­ing that the middle class has been ser­i­ously neg­lected,” War­ren wrote. They saw “gov­ern­ment as fa­vor­ing both the rich and the poor sim­ul­tan­eously.” Like many on the left, MARS were deeply sus­pi­cious of big busi­ness: Com­pared with the oth­er groups he sur­veyed—lower-in­come whites, middle-in­come whites who went to col­lege, and what War­ren called “af­flu­ents”—MARS were the most likely to be­lieve that cor­por­a­tions had “too much power,” “don’t pay at­ten­tion,” and were “too big.” MARS also backed many lib­er­al pro­grams: By a large per­cent­age, they favored gov­ern­ment guar­an­tee­ing jobs to every­one; and they sup­por­ted price con­trols, Medi­care, some kind of na­tion­al health in­sur­ance, fed­er­al aid to edu­ca­tion, and So­cial Se­cur­ity.
On the oth­er hand, they held very con­ser­vat­ive po­s­i­tions on poverty and race. They were the least likely to agree that whites had any re­spons­ib­il­ity “to make up for wrongs done to blacks in the past,” they were the most crit­ic­al of wel­fare agen­cies, they re­jec­ted ra­cial bus­ing, and they wanted to grant po­lice a “heav­ier hand” to “con­trol crime.” They were also the group most dis­trust­ful of the na­tion­al gov­ern­ment. And in a stand that wasn’t really lib­er­al or con­ser­vat­ive (and that ap­peared, at least on the sur­face, to be in ten­sion with their dis­like of the na­tion­al gov­ern­ment), MARS were more likely than any oth­er group to fa­vor strong lead­er­ship in Wash­ing­ton—to ad­voc­ate for a situ­ation “when one per­son is in charge.”
If these voters are be­gin­ning to sound fa­mil­i­ar, they should: War­ren’s MARS of the 1970s are the Don­ald Trump sup­port­ers of today.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:53 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Score one for Carly: Planned Parenthood announced today they're no long going to seek reimbursement for fetal tissue. Never bet against liberals responding to ratfucking with cowardice
posted by tonycpsu at 9:57 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]






Im just now getting around to watching the debate and I can't believe that no one else thinks that Martin O'Malley sounds EXACLTY like Will Forte??
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:33 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oops! Wrong debate thread!
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:20 AM on October 15, 2015




Opening and closing statements from all twenty candidates AND under two hours?
posted by Artw at 12:37 PM on October 15, 2015


I'm actually fairly sympathetic to them wanting an opening/closing statement. But trying to do all that, plus the real debate, for two dozen candidates, is nuts.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:45 PM on October 15, 2015


Throw in commercial breaks and inane grandstanding from the moderators and there'll barely be enough time for each candidate to mention Jesus and Reagan.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:46 PM on October 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


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