Is She Alive, Mommy?
September 23, 2015 10:27 AM   Subscribe

Barbie Wants to Get to Know Your Child.
For psychologists who study the imaginative play of children, the primary concern with A.I. toys is not that they encourage kids to fantasize too wildly. Instead, researchers worry that a conversational doll might prevent children, who have long personified toys without technology, from imagining wildly enough.
posted by gottabefunky (64 comments total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
 
The child in me, who remembers grownups complaining about how 8-bit consoles would make kids stupid, wants to say that children will always have the power of imagination.

The grownup in me wants to smash this thing with a hammer.

Still, I don't think revulsion is really necessary. The power of a child's boredom will trump all. I adored the talking Cricket doll, wanted one so much, and when I finally found the last dented box in one store and got to take her home -- well, she got old quick. You couldn't even hug her, she was so stiff and full of metal. My Barbie and Jem dolls were evergreen.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:37 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


The theoretical pedagogical concerns seem secondary to the fact that it's sending apparently unencrypted recordings of your child over over wifi via a mic that's always on. Also that it's conditioning them to provide personal information in response to the questions that whoever on the other end is asking.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:40 AM on September 23, 2015 [66 favorites]


Parents can choose to receive daily or weekly e-mails with access to the audio files of their children's conversations with Hello Barbie. "We want to make sure parents are in control of their family's data at all times," said Jacob, ToyTalk's chief executive.

Okay, that's horrifying. That could get a child a beating.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2015 [26 favorites]


But she's got a new hat!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:48 AM on September 23, 2015 [8 favorites]


That could get a child a beating.

It will also record children getting those beatings, and asking their doll why their parents hit them all the time, and their mom getting hit if that's what happens in that house, and parents having sex if the doll gets left in the wrong room, and all the small print in the package will carefully deny any responsibility to acknowledge that, protect anyone involved, or act on any of it at all.

It's going to be an abdication-of-responsibility nightmare, and whoever came up with this idea should be incarcerated.
posted by mhoye at 10:50 AM on September 23, 2015 [35 favorites]


it's sending apparently unencrypted recordings of your child over over wifi via a mic that's always on. Also that it's conditioning them to provide personal information in response to the questions that whoever on the other end is asking.

"Yup, here's your problem. Someone set this thing to Evil."
*flips switch*
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2015 [24 favorites]


‘‘What’s something nice that your sister does for you?’’ Barbie asked.
‘‘She does nothing nice to me,’’ Tiara said tensely.
Barbie forged ahead. ‘‘Well, what is the last nice thing your sister did?’’
‘‘She helped me with my project — and then she destroyed it.’’
‘‘Oh, yeah, tell me more!’’ Barbie said, oblivious to Tiara’s unhappiness.
‘‘That’s it, Barbie,’’ Tiara said.
‘‘Have you told your sister lately how cool she is?’’
‘‘No. She is not cool,’’ Tiara said, gritting her teeth.
‘‘You never know, she might appreciate hearing it,’’ Barbie said.
Tiara, we hope you've enjoyed this realistic simulation of how much attention people will pay to what you're actually saying for most of your life.
posted by Wolfdog at 11:04 AM on September 23, 2015 [74 favorites]


Her name is Talky Tina!
posted by JanetLand at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Half-serious prediction: Eventually, the "AI" will be outsourced to low-paid English speakers in the Third World, who will type in appropriate things for Barbie to say in response to the kid.
posted by clawsoon at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2015 [9 favorites]


I'm barely into my 40s and I already want off this ride. I'd walk off onto the nearest ice floe, but, well...
posted by entropicamericana at 11:08 AM on September 23, 2015 [9 favorites]


I mean, it's creepy. But whether it impairs imagination is a whole different set of questions. I recall friends in my youth whose parents didn't let them watch TV for that reason. I did, and seem to have a perfectly fine imagination. I had peers who gave their children stuffed animals with no faces so that they would imagine the faces, turns out those kids grew up fine, too.

Hell, I remember the first time I felt old was when I thought it was a mistake to record music videos, since in my youth I had to use my imagination to put pictures to the music. When I caught myself thinking that, I was like, whoa there, slow your roll.

I keep going back to the fpp from yesterday. I figure this isn't so much about Big Brother Government but more like Big Brother Advertising.
posted by janey47 at 11:10 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I figure this isn't so much about Big Brother Government but more like Big Brother Advertising.

What's the difference?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:13 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Even as a kid things like My Buddy creeped me the hell out, long before I knew what "uncanny valley" meant.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:13 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I had peers who gave their children stuffed animals with no faces so that they would imagine the faces

My imagination is apparently unimpaired, because I can imagine that and I can't stop screaming aaaaaah
posted by asperity at 11:14 AM on September 23, 2015 [43 favorites]


Eventually, the "AI" will be outsourced to low-paid English speakers in the Third World, who will type in appropriate things for Barbie to say in response to the kid.

One step closer to the Young Ladies' Illustrated Primer in Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age".
posted by skycrashesdown at 11:15 AM on September 23, 2015 [20 favorites]


Conversation my sister had with one of her kids:

Mom: You have a great imagination! I love the stories you're telling with your toys!
Kid: I get them from watching TV.
posted by clawsoon at 11:16 AM on September 23, 2015 [15 favorites]


What's the difference?

The government can put you in prison. Advertisers can't. Yet.
posted by clawsoon at 11:17 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


I missed the fact it records and retains all your kids' conversations with it and then mails them to you. This makes the whole thing way skeevier and worrisome for the abuse-related reasons given above. And really, best case scenario as a parent wouldn't you rather have your child confide to you directly rather than listen to his or her Barbie conversations clandestinely?
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:17 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Parents can choose to receive daily or weekly e-mails with access to the audio files of their children's conversations with Hello Barbie. "We want to make sure parents are in control of their family's data at all times," said Jacob, ToyTalk's chief executive.

OK, much horror/shock/wtf face happening here. It seems ripe for all kinds of problems - for example, abusive parents hearing their kids saying things they don't like, kids learning that they can't even trust their toys with secrets (welcome to the surveillance state, kiddo!) as well as the toy company using these audio files for their own datamining purposes, to get Barbie to "suggest" accessories and other toys that are appropriate to the age, socioeconomic status, other toys being mentioned, and so forth. And that's before we think about these audio files being intercepted and used by other parties (un-encrypted WiFi?). Plus maybe Barbie overhears other things going on in the house? What would Mattel's legal liability be when a child discloses abuse to the toy? What is Barbie's response to that disclosure? And "families in control of their data"? Utter BS! You get a copy of what is being said, but the control of that data is in Mattel's hands...and we've all seen how good at data security and data management they are.

Does anybody think about shit like this at these companies, or is it only people like me?
posted by nubs at 11:19 AM on September 23, 2015 [18 favorites]


Why is my name not "Aslan Appleman?" THANKS A LOT, MOM.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:20 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I had peers who gave their children stuffed animals with no faces so that they would imagine the faces...

My imagination is apparently unimpaired, because I can imagine that and I can't stop screaming aaaaaah...


Fluffy Has No Mouth, and I Must Scream
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:24 AM on September 23, 2015 [15 favorites]


She said the hardest thing to teach her three-year-old kid was what was alive and what wasn’t. The phone rings and she holds it out to her kid and says, “It’s Grandma. Talk to Grandma.” But she’s holding a piece of plastic. And the kid says to herself: “Wait a minute. Is the phone alive? Is the TV alive? What about that radio? What is alive in this room and what doesn’t have life?” Unfortunately she doesn't know how to ask these questions.
posted by PMdixon at 11:26 AM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


I wonder how many kids will simply refuse to accept that it's the 'real' Barbie talking to them, like when a parent took your teddy bear, either to have the bear whisper to them or have the bear speak, saying "It's time for bed, little Renault!" No he didn't. Bear didn't say that. That's not his voice.

Which is my roundabout way to say that child creativity may trump AI anyway. The AI may have different plans for the interaction, which the kid simply isn't interested in, and overrule. (*shrugs*)
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:28 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


My imagination is apparently unimpaired, because I can imagine that and I can't stop screaming aaaaaah

Well, I admit that we bought their children much more horrible toys. This was in the Barney era, and we bought them a singing, talking Barney. I'm surprised that we can even still call them "friends."
posted by janey47 at 11:32 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


The next logical step in the Elf on the Shelf panopticon.
posted by j.edwards at 11:35 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


apparently unencrypted recordings of your child over over wifi via a mic that's always on
And in the ads for this article: "Q: When will our devices think for themselves? Why Wait" and "Q: When will our devices think like people? Why Wait"

Have we learned nothing from eBay ads for "Great deals on Racism"?

Q for Qualcomm: Should you use a half-assed word association algorithm to inadvertently position yourselves as the vanguard of a creepy dystopia? No, Wait.
posted by roystgnr at 11:37 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sounds like a voice-enabled descendant of ELIZA albeit one that conditions our kids early to accept the panopticonic dystopia that we're creating.

Now let's forget our troubles with a big bowl of strawberry ice cream!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:39 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


So what if two kids are in the room talking to it? Even more "AI" anarchy?
posted by njohnson23 at 11:42 AM on September 23, 2015


What happens to the classic children's game where Barbie and G.I. Joe have sex?
posted by clawsoon at 11:45 AM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]


I was a kid who already anthropomorphized a lot of things -- a toy like this would've really gotten its hooks into me. This kind of kid, as Jonathan Franzen put it in an essay on (among other things) his childhood:
I felt guilty about the washcloths at the bottom of the stack in the linen closet, the older, thinner washcloths that we seldom used. I felt guilty for preferring my best shooter marbles, a solid-red agate and a solid-yellow agate, my king and my queen, to marbles farther down my rigid marble hierarchy. I felt guilty about the board games that I didn’t like to play—Uncle Wiggily, U.S. Presidential Elections, Game of the States—and sometimes, when my friends weren’t around, I opened the boxes and examined the pieces in the hope of making the games feel less forgotten. I felt guilty about neglecting the stiff-limbed, scratchy-pelted Mr. Bear, who had no voice and didn’t mix well with my other stuffed animals. To avoid feeling guilty about them, too, I slept with one of them per night, according to a strict weekly schedule.

We laugh at dachshunds for humping our legs, but our own species is even more self-centered in its imaginings. There’s no object so Other that it can’t be anthropomorphized and shanghaied into conversation with us.
So, yeah, not to be all concern-troll-y about it, but I do wonder how it would've affected the way I related (and maybe still relate) with the world. As pointed out upthread by skycrashesdown, this feels like a rudimentary (and corporate) Young Lady's Illustrated Primer à la Diamond Age. Although that's pure fiction, this feels like a heck of a teaching tool, for good or for ill.
posted by theoddball at 12:06 PM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


girls through imaginative games, and funny, telling jokes and being goofy. But Mattel also wanted Barbie to have an empathetic, affirming sensibility aimed at young girls, says Julia Pistor, a Mattel vice president. ‘‘The subtext that is there that we would not do for boys is: ‘You don’t have to be perfect. It is O.K. to be messy and flawed and silly.’ ’’

ARGH
posted by emjaybee at 12:08 PM on September 23, 2015 [11 favorites]


girls through imaginative games, and funny, telling jokes and being goofy. But Mattel also wanted Barbie to have an empathetic, affirming sensibility aimed at young girls, says Julia Pistor, a Mattel vice president. ‘‘The subtext that is there that we would not do for boys is: ‘You don’t have to be perfect. It is O.K. to be messy and flawed and silly.’ ’’

I look forward to the hacked Barbie whispering conspiratorially to young girls that both Ken dolls and boys are abundant and low value, DTMFA and the impracticality of pedal locomotion for flippered creatures.
posted by srboisvert at 12:21 PM on September 23, 2015 [20 favorites]


I'm also wondering what happens if children are mean to the doll? Kids at play are practicing for the real world. The kids could learn that it's OK to bully their friends, that it doesn't actually hurt them. Or they could learn that when someone bullies you, you're not allowed to be sad or to stand up for yourself; after all Barbie doesn't. I remember when I was a kid and authority figures would chant "Sticks and stones..." as if I had no right to my feelings unless I could show a physical injury. It sounds like the doll is personifying that attitude. But if the doll returns nasty for nasty, or cries, or goes on about how its feelings have been hurt, that's the kind of downer that hurts sales. It just seems like a minefield.

Also, sending the conversations back to the parent, yeesh. I wonder what sort of scripts they've programmed for when the kids confront Barbie with having betrayed them? Does Barbie lie to their face and deny having tattled? Or recite a privacy disclosure statement like the ones we get from the credit card company? This is all creepy even if you assume the parents are well-balanced and not abusive.
posted by elizilla at 12:22 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I remember the first time I felt old was when I thought it was a mistake to record music videos, since in my youth I had to use my imagination to put pictures to the music.

I vividly remember having a long and pointless argument with my freshman year roommate on just this topic (I was pro, he was anti—and where are music videos today?).
posted by octobersurprise at 12:34 PM on September 23, 2015


I remember when I was a kid and authority figures would chant "Sticks and stones..." as if I had no right to my feelings unless I could show a physical injury.

Jesus, this. It's just about the worst lie we ever decided to tell children. Do teachers and parents still learn to say this? I grumble to myself about things getting soft for kids since I came along, but if they don't say that any more, it will be worth it.

As a kid, I never got a good grip on the concept of "tattling," as employed by the teachers who said, "don't come tattle to me, nobody likes a tattletale" when a child told them another child did something wrong. Didn't grownups want to know when other kids were being mean? When I got older, I realized that the teachers meant "go away and leave me alone, I don't care who gets the damn She-Ra next." This is reasonable. But kids have to learn what grownups really do want and need to hear from them. I hope that I'm right and that kids will not be inclined to fall in love with a doll that's a tattletale.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:35 PM on September 23, 2015 [11 favorites]


I was pro, he was anti—and where are music videos today?

All over Youtube. Single most-watched category of video, I believe.
posted by clawsoon at 12:38 PM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Is there an "Uber, but for" prediction market yet? "Uber, but for outsourced roboparenting" ought to be paying off at pretty good odds.
posted by RogerB at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


If we're going to have dolls that talk, can we at least have them collect data for the NSA or something? I mean, who better to interact with you than a clandestine operative who has to listen to someone anyway... Might as well be my kid.

I'll probably be fine as long as they don't play that 'Death to America' pretend game...
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:40 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


can we at least have them collect data for the NSA or something?

No need to worry — that feature comes standard on almost all network-connected devices!
posted by RogerB at 12:43 PM on September 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Government Snitch Barbie comes with plausible deniability and all you see here!

(You ain't seen nothin', right?)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Everyone knows that the Full Communism Now game is better than boring old DTA
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2015


You know, this could be used as another tool for communication and sharing feelings for kids.

In much the same way, television could have been used for education and public information.

We all know how that turned out.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:48 PM on September 23, 2015 [8 favorites]


I know someone involved in this project, and when this was first announced a few months ago, I asked this person if the device had any security/privacy measures built in. They told me that it has a 'push-to-talk' button that must be depressed for it to record, but that was it there more for power conservation reasons, rather than privacy.
posted by spudsilo at 12:52 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


All over Youtube. Single most-watched category of video, I believe.

Indeed. I shall call my old roommate and tell him I was right!
posted by octobersurprise at 12:55 PM on September 23, 2015


When I was a kid, I read a story about a family christmas once where a spoilt girl and her underprivileged computer nerdy cousin celebrate Christmas. The rich mean girl got an AI robot puppy who could be trained to do things. She trained him to pretend to pee as soon as the other girl's name was mentioned. Parents laugh.
The other girl spends a lot of time petting the dog's belly where the controls are. This being England, Jaws is on on tv at Christmas. She whispers something in the dog's ear.
The mean girl says nerdy girl's name again. The dog looks at his owner with big, loving eyes "and bit her little finger clean off".
posted by Omnomnom at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


clawsoon: Half-serious prediction: Eventually, the "AI" will be outsourced to low-paid English speakers in the Third World, who will type in appropriate things for Barbie to say in response to the kid.

All the more reason to buy one. Who wouldn't want a Barbie that enjoys make procurement at the arcade of shopping?
posted by dr_dank at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I can't imagine buying my kids something like this.

There is this weird "prestige" element of toys... you have to get one for your kids for Christmas. As a parent I have resisted it almost entirely, but when I was a kid there were these toys that came out that would magically appear under our tree - Cabbage Patch Kids was one of them, but Star Wars also fits in there somewhere I think.
posted by Nevin at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2015


I'm also wondering what happens if children are mean to the doll?

Ah, that sparked a memory: once upon a time I remember reading an article about how Barbie dolls are hugely abused by little girls, largely because by the time they're ten or so they've accumulated a small harem of Barbies and they lack any individual value -- so they stick thumbtacks in their boobs and chew off their feet and pull the heads off and twist the knees so the clicky-thing doesn't work anymore...not out of any sociopathic hatred of Barbie, but because kids ruin their toys out of experimentation and boredom.

Now, you've got a toy bin full of Barbie, but this Barbie, she's expensive and mom and dad warned not to break her...but how long before she gets tossed into the toy pile with the rest of the indistinguishable, boring Barbies? How long until the girl lets the batteries go dead, and starts cutting its hair like the rest? when you consider how Barbies are played with -- this doll does only one new trick, it can direct a conversation from "Barbie's" point of view. I'm not sure that's enough to make it something other than the Barbies with holes in their heads where the kid put real earrings into it, the Barbies with mashed-up toes from being chewed on while watching TV, the one without a left arm because that one outfit is too tight and little fingers couldn't manage to get the jacket on right.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]


and whoever came up with this idea should be incarcerated.

No, they shouldn't. Incarceration is the correct response to a surprisingly small set of behaviors, a set which does not contain this one.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 1:20 PM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]


Geez, I read that comment as "incinerated" and thought it seemed reasonable.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 1:23 PM on September 23, 2015 [13 favorites]


Geez, I read that comment as "incinerated" and thought it seemed reasonable.

You have my sword.
posted by mhoye at 1:30 PM on September 23, 2015


Is there an "Uber, but for" prediction market yet? "Uber, but for outsourced roboparenting" ought to be paying off at pretty good odds.

Well my cat is chasing lasers and robots while I ostensibly get work done if that counts.
posted by srboisvert at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2015


The theoretical pedagogical concerns seem secondary to the fact that it's sending apparently unencrypted recordings of your child over over wifi via a mic that's always on.

Correction: spudsilo has it above - the button on the doll appears to have to be depressed (at least as designed) for its internal mic to record, but it can broadcast at any time. I have not been able to find a Hello Barbie teardown or any detailed specs to see how easy it would be to use it for more invasive surveillance.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:10 PM on September 23, 2015


OK, so there are obviously privacy concerns and ethical issues around this, with a lot of different perspectives. Clicking around a little bit from one of the articles led me to this short video, which I think offers a certain amount of weighty counterpoint from the Barbiverse.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:14 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Burn them. Burn them all.
posted by gottabefunky at 3:42 PM on September 23, 2015


the Barbies with holes in their heads where the kid put real earrings into it

The early Barbies came with holes in their ears for exactly this purpose and some of their outfits came with tiny matching earrings. I don't see a problem other than young kids swallowing or otherwise misusing the earrings on themselves.

It's going to be an abdication-of-responsibility nightmare, and whoever came up with this idea should be incarcerated.

I think it'll probably only be a short while before the doll's technology gets hacked and some of the more troublesome or embarrassing recordings show up online as makeshift revenge videos. Then Mattel will be getting sued.

maybe Barbie overhears other things going on in the house?

In the certain kinds of families where things go on that the adults feel the need to keep inside the house and forbid the kids to discuss with outsiders, this toy will probably be forbidden as well.
posted by fuse theorem at 3:46 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


But seriously, as the father of two young girls who literally have to be pried away from iPads on a regular basis, this creeps me right the hell out.

I can appreciate in theory how this could seem like a good thing that goes beyond just fun-to-play-with, like the parts about reassuring girls it's ok to feel imperfect and unhappy, and expanding their career horizons.

But as I think someone said above, it sits right at the top of a damn steep, slippery slope, and no way is it one I'd want my daughters to be guinea pigs for. There are so many ways things could go south. This is a corporation we're talking about, not a research lab bound by ethical guidelines.

(And I can't help wondering if there's some algorithm to deal with when jerky brothers or boy cousins inevitably get their paws on it.)
posted by gottabefunky at 3:50 PM on September 23, 2015


So just hooking up creepypasta sounds on random play to the speakers and putting this thing next to it: sport or trolling?
posted by Smedleyman at 5:13 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think it'll probably only be a short while before the doll's technology gets hacked and some of the more troublesome or embarrassing recordings show up online as makeshift revenge videos. Then Mattel will be getting sued.

I think that's the best case scenario. Worst case is kid discussing with their Barbie the fact that daddy or mommy hits them or is touching them; parent then gets email with that conversation recorded; kid gets killed in the retribution. That, from my perspective as a social worker, is a very real possibility from this that should have whoever is in risk management on this project pulling their hair out.

My work with risk management is basically predicated on assessing things along two axes: likelihood of occurence and impact of occurence. I guess it doesn't matter to me where we all might individually put the likelihood of this on that graph; the impact of it would be massive, and the fact that it even shows up in a risk assessment matrix for a product from a toy company should have them doing some serious thinking about this project.
posted by nubs at 5:16 PM on September 23, 2015 [9 favorites]


how much profile building will it have to do before it starts suggesting purchases to your cute lil' consumer?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:17 PM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wolfdog: Clicking around a little bit from one of the articles led me to this short video, which I think offers a certain amount of weighty counterpoint from the Barbiverse.

Life in the Dreamhouse has some pretty sly humor, usually stemming from the fact that the cartoon acknowledges that they're still dolls, after all. One episode where they redecorate the Dreamhouse by slapping furniture decals on the walls comes to mind in this regard.
posted by dr_dank at 5:51 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yes, it does. It also has a horse destroying a piano. Many levels.
posted by Wolfdog at 6:31 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


But I owe my whole career as a soulless, unimaginative bureaucrat to Teddy Ruxpin!
posted by milarepa at 9:04 AM on September 24, 2015


> Is there an "Uber, but for" prediction market yet? "Uber, but for outsourced roboparenting" ought to be paying off at pretty good odds.

> I know someone involved in this project, and when this was first announced a few months ago, I asked this person if the device had any security/privacy measures built in. They told me that it has a 'push-to-talk' button that must be depressed for it to record, but that was it there more for power conservation reasons, rather than privacy.

Uber but for assassinating your political opponents and/or enemies of the state by hacking into their kid's doll and persuading the kid to do something that will poison the entire family or burn down the house.
posted by XMLicious at 9:25 AM on September 24, 2015


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