They've had enough, and they're taking their balls and going home.
September 25, 2015 11:05 AM   Subscribe

At first glance, it's easy to lump [Men Going Their Own Way] in with typical Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) who also believe that female oppression is a myth and that it's actually males who are oppressed—but that's not the case [...] While MRAs are out to fix the problem through action and activism, members of MGTOW hold self-preservation above all else, and because of this the majority of the community seems to have decided to bow out.
Inside the Group of Straight Men Who Are Swearing Off Women
posted by griphus (74 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: These guys seem to be reasoning themselves into some pretty gross rhetoric and bad life decisions, but I'm not sure we're really gonna get anything good out of a post about them. -- cortex



 
I can't understand why they never call themselves NO MA'AM.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:06 AM on September 25, 2015 [37 favorites]


At second glance as well.
posted by Cosine at 11:06 AM on September 25, 2015 [11 favorites]


Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, guys.

Actually, let it.
posted by SansPoint at 11:10 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


That'll last for a couple of months weeks.
posted by sammyo at 11:10 AM on September 25, 2015


The MGTOW rep in the photo appears to be wearing a kilt made of Hefty bags.

Straight men "all over the world" are not yet wearing kilts made of Hefty bags.*

I HAVE DRAWN MY OWN CONCLUSIONS.

* Also, anecdotally, still appear to be pretty interested in women.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:10 AM on September 25, 2015


Level 4 - Societal Disengagement: this is as far as a mainstream MGTOW can go. Here the man refuses to interact with society any more than ever.

No. Don't go. Please. Stop. Come back.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:11 AM on September 25, 2015 [28 favorites]


Can we put together a collection for these fine fellows to move out to some woman-free version of Galt's Gulch and go away? We can even make a protected zone of the Internet (TLD .men) that keeps them off the real one, just load it up with porn and games and a button to order pizza and Mountain Dew, and they should be set.
posted by graymouser at 11:11 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


once we've got high quality sex bots these doofuses are going to be having the dullest, lamest hetero robosex while the rest of us get to experience the mindblowing joy of freaky weird cyberscrewing featuring piles of humans and sexbots with various alien genital configurations. bizarre orgasm after bizarre orgasm, only pausing for everyone to laugh at the poor meninists off alone with their sad little idiot's-idea-of-femme submissive stepford bots.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:12 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


Society thanks you for your sacrifice.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:13 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh please, please don't throw us into the briar patch!

*cackles gleefully*
posted by trunk muffins at 11:14 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Interesting. A growing divide between MRA traditionalists who seek to dominate and control women, and MRA Quietists(?) who seek to remove themselves from all female influences.

The origin is the same (hatred of women), but expressed in very different ways.

It's horrible, but fascinating.
posted by Avenger at 11:14 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


You Can't Tip a Buick: Finally, someone has actually got me INTERESTED in the Sexbot Future.
posted by SansPoint at 11:14 AM on September 25, 2015


Well...
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:14 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


But if it wasn't for Men's Rights weirdoes putting themselves out on the dating scene, how would I know what not to put on my OK Cupid profile?
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well...
posted by sparklemotion at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


How many of these dudes can there possibly be?

Seems unsporting to point and laugh.
posted by notyou at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


I can't imagine living like that. MRA, PUA, MGTOW, whatever. Imagine honestly thinking, believing, that half the world is at best worthless due to their gender. Most of them seem to think that women are actively out to get them. What the fuck, dudes, what the fuck. Like what do these people think when they see men happily existing alongside women? When they see my wife and I out and about, what do they think is going on there? What about women with women?

I want to ask these people what evidence might convince them that women are not the devil.
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Why can't straight dudes just calm the fuck down?
posted by Nelson at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2015 [28 favorites]


I always feel so badly for these guys; they seem so deeply, deeply unhappy. I mean, as a general rule I'm more sorry for women (including myself) but I feel like this could be People's Exhibit A in the on-going trial of Patriarchy v. Everyone.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:16 AM on September 25, 2015 [23 favorites]


Jinx, Celsius1414 :)
posted by sparklemotion at 11:16 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


He views the government as tyrannical and is trying to actively drain money from the bureaucrats.

I find this typo amusing. Also inadvertently more accurate than their actual views.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:17 AM on September 25, 2015


If their reaction to the oppressive bootheel of the patriarchy grinding down on them is not "to hell with the patriarchy" but rather, "to hell with women," I do not hold great stores of sympathy for them
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:18 AM on September 25, 2015 [13 favorites]


I find this typo amusing.

Typo?
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:18 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


How many of these dudes can there possibly be?

Seems unsporting to point and laugh.


There are dozens of us! DOZENS
posted by shakespeherian at 11:18 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Jinx, Celsius1414 :)

I have two guns...one for each of ya.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:19 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sounds like some kind of Bizarro World Crone Island for Men.
posted by FJT at 11:19 AM on September 25, 2015


Sounds like some kind of Bizarro World Crone Island for Men.

A Penisula, surely.
posted by griphus at 11:20 AM on September 25, 2015 [32 favorites]


They've had enough, and they're taking their balls and going home.

Slow clap.

I guess these guys see dating as a big problem and they're going to rub it out.

But seriously, dating can really suck and separate from all the ideological sturm and drang I don't see anything all that odd about that. Not every confirmed bachelor is actually gay.
posted by GuyZero at 11:21 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Western equivalent to NEETs sure is ornery.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:21 AM on September 25, 2015


This is like a classic case of sour grapes, right? They didn't really want to be with women anyway. Suuure. I buy that.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:21 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


GuyZero I guess these guys see dating as a big problem and they're going to rub it out.

They'll be doing quite a bit of "rubbing it out," if you know what I mean.
posted by SansPoint at 11:21 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Everyone needs a hobby.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:22 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


When they see my wife and I out and about, what do they think is going on there?

I think you are the horse and she is the wagon but I'm not totally sure.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:24 AM on September 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


I can't understand why they never call themselves NO MA'AM.

G.R.O.S.S., surely.
posted by jimmythefish at 11:24 AM on September 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


Unfortunately, having a group of men who are unable to think of women as fellow human beings go off in a corner and pat themselves on the back about how they've escaped from having any contact with those terrible women creatures seems unlikely to keep their loathing entirely bottled up and never spill any on the rest of us.
posted by straight at 11:26 AM on September 25, 2015 [12 favorites]


So they're separatists. Okay. Bye.
posted by rtha at 11:26 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


How many of these dudes can there possibly be?

Seems unsporting to point and laugh.


Considering the Twitter page for founder Sandman is an exercise in unrestrained misogyny, it seems unsporting not to.
posted by maxsparber at 11:27 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


They've had enough, and they're taking their balls and going home.

Back in the pile!
posted by XMLicious at 11:27 AM on September 25, 2015


They'll be doing quite a bit of "rubbing it out," if you know what I mean.

A bit of the old "having sex with Clovers," eh?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:28 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


how do these guys react to the relatively reasonable-sounding suggestion that they could just sleep with each other? really at least two thirds of the reason I read to the end of this piece is to see if the author asked any of them the obvious question, but, nope...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:29 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


A bit of the old "having sex with Clovers," eh?

they'll be jacking off a lot
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:29 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


This immediately inspired me to make a superhero costume out of a garbage bag and coloured duct tape.
posted by Theta States at 11:32 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Baron Harkonnen did prefer the company of men if I recall.
posted by Damienmce at 11:34 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


they could just sleep with each other?

Speaking for lovers of dude-on-dude sodomy forever, no. Even the more-often-than-not-fucked up practice of situational homosexuality is not approved for these guys.

That said, I'd love to see them asked.

(I've apparently found my dream job and it's the Official Licensor of Buggery and Fellatio.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:34 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


FJT: "Sounds like some kind of Bizarro World Crone Island for Men."

I was thinking the same thing. There was a lot of support for Crone Island in the emotional labor discussion. How much pain does a person have to be in to swear off romantic relationships? That's where these men are, and that's where I think a lot of women in the emotional labor thread were too. Different reasons but ending up in the same place.

The rhetoric from these men is disgusting but it would be nice? healthy? compassionate? to see some empathy for their pain instead of relentless mocking and schadenfreude.
posted by yes i am a bisexual man at 11:35 AM on September 25, 2015 [10 favorites]


I don't have any faith that these guys are morally consistent enough to swear off harassing women anonymously online, but it would be super great if they were.
posted by almostmanda at 11:37 AM on September 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


The rhetoric from these men is disgusting but it would be nice? healthy? compassionate? to see some empathy for their pain instead of relentless mocking and schadenfreude.

You might find some connection between the mocking schadenfreude and the disgusting rhetoric.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:37 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


If you are spending your time swearing at women, you haven't sworn off them; you are still deeply engaged. Only, apparently, you are hostily engaged with imaginary women, which seems even less productive than, say, having an imaginary girlfriend.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:37 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Women want Crone Island because men scare them, and demean them, and hurt them. These men have sworn off women because it INFURIATES them that women want to be treated like human beings.

Not really the same thing.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:38 AM on September 25, 2015 [32 favorites]


The "manosphere" snake is starting to eat itself.

This is a disturbingly vivid image.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:39 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Even the more-often-than-not-fucked up practice of situational homosexuality is not approved for these guys.

Not even a touch of frottage? Sure these men should be able to exercise that most basic of human rights, the right to rub against another human (or gym rope) in the quest for sexual gratification?
posted by MikeMc at 11:39 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Metafilter: Not even a touch of frottage?
posted by lalochezia at 11:40 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


The rhetoric from these men is disgusting but it would be nice? healthy? compassionate? to see some empathy for their pain instead of relentless mocking and schadenfreude.

There is this constant implication somehow victims are failing when they don't sympathize or have compassion with their victimizers, and what is up with that?

And as a fellow man, I have no empathy for men who hate women, and shouldn't be expected to.
posted by maxsparber at 11:40 AM on September 25, 2015 [19 favorites]


I'm pretty sure this string of words has never been written before: You Can't Tip a Buick has got to be the world's preeminent sex bot comedian.
posted by Kwine at 11:41 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Level 4 - Societal Disengagement: this is as far as a mainstream MGTOW can go. Here the man refuses to interact with society any more than ever.

How do we get GamerGate to sign up en masse?
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't see why these people should be mocked. They have lots of dumb and noxious ideas—so do all major world religions. But as with religion, the important thing isn't the doctrine, but what adherents actually do with it.

If they were trying to tell women what do to, I would have a big problem with them. If they were trying to tell all, or even most, men what to do, I would have a problem with them. If they were trying to influence policy to reflect their paranoid, patriarchal views, I would have a problem with them.

But there seems to be little of that. From what I can see, these are guys who aren't at peace with women, or with evolving norms around gender, and they just want to live separate from that. That seems unfortunate, but also legit. Yes, it would be preferable if they could figure out how to relate appropriately to women. But as long as they won't, I'd sure rather they isolate themselves than try to impose their views.

And yeah, as the article and some commenters have suggested, they mostly just seem like sad, broken people. So the mocking tone of the article, and some comments here, seems inappropriate and generally shitty. Some people can't deal, and retreat into bullshit ideologies. And that sucks for them.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:41 AM on September 25, 2015 [5 favorites]


I would buy the premise more if it appeared like these guys had actually touched a woman (consensually) before. It seems like they are preemptively rejecting women in order to avoid rejection themselves.
posted by theorique at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2015


I'm deeply fascinated by the MGTOW thing; I love hate/bewilderment reading MRA sites and those guys are always the weirdest. There's an aimless focus on self "improvement" but without the ultimate goal of having more sex that drive the PUAs who are "upping their value." Even if it weren't driven by hate of women, it'd still be weird and cultish. It's out there enough that even the mainstream MRAs write them off. Honestly, though, Trashbag Man seems like he must have some sort of actual mental illness.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Look, clearly these guys are very sexually attracted to women which is the source of their extreme anger when they have trouble reconciling that with their extreme misogyny. They see normal relationships as inherently exploitative and one-sided but at the same time they really, really want a relationship. They're trapped in their own worldview.

The rhetoric from these men is disgusting but it would be nice? healthy? compassionate? to see some empathy for their pain instead of relentless mocking and schadenfreude.

I feel for these guys personally. I had a terrible time figuring out how to move from polite-to-women to having a girlfriend. Thankfully I didn't start from the crazy place these guys are starting from where women are presumed to be terrible.

Besides, there's a legitimate point to be made that a relationship involves sacrifice to some extent. And if these guys are all like "I'LL NEVER SACRIFICE MY PRINCIPLES (of hating women)" then well, yeah.

hese men have sworn off women because it INFURIATES them that women want to be treated like human beings.

I think these guys legitimately have trouble dealing with women because they're so tied up in their sexual frustration that they can't ever just be normal people. I think they have legitimately difficult issues which unfortunately get tied up with their slightly-less-legitimate misogyny.
posted by GuyZero at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


A libido just can't be satisfied, no matter how hard you try, woodworking and hanging with your bros.

Even better than the "taking their balls and going home" line.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


I would buy the premise more if it appeared like these guys had actually touched a woman (consensually) before. It seems like they are preemptively rejecting women in order to avoid rejection themselves.

Yes.
posted by GuyZero at 11:43 AM on September 25, 2015


The Unchosen.
posted by jamjam at 11:43 AM on September 25, 2015


From what I can see, these are guys who aren't at peace with women, or with evolving norms around gender, and they just want to live separate from that.

You uh haven't spent a lot of time on their websites I see. For a group of dudes claiming to want to be separatists, they are obsessed with women's perceived transgressions against them and Men in general.
posted by griphus at 11:43 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


Yes, it would be preferable if they could figure out how to relate appropriately to women.

I would settle for turning off the firehose of misogyny coming out of their mouths. For a bunch of dudes who claim they don't care about women, they sure have built an entire identity around how much they hate women.
posted by almostmanda at 11:44 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]



(I've apparently found my dream job and it's the Official Licensor of Buggery and Fellatio.)

okay so I am seriously considering getting a sockpuppet account just so I can favorite this twice.

re: sympathy for them, yeah, it is true that their lives are agony, but (like with the Kim Davis-style fundamentalist Christians) their pain is derived from a sense that they can never be happy unless they are in total control of the lives of everyone around them. it's the pain of wanting to be a complete Caligula-style monster, and feeling entitled to that sort of power over others, and feeling wronged by their lack of power over others.

I don't know what to say to persecuted hegemons. I don't know how to think of them. their pain is real, but it's also delusional. if somehow they were healed of their desire to be monstrous, the pain would go away. but they don't want to be healed of the desire to be monstrous. instead, they demand that they be allowed to become monsters.

They should separate. I would gladly let them get their share of the guaranteed minimum income so that they could fuck off to the middle of nowhere North Dakota to live alone with their crippling resentment.

but they need to stay out of my city and off my internet.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:44 AM on September 25, 2015 [13 favorites]


I have a feeling one of my male acquaintances is about to go the MGTOW route... he's been posting long, angry rants to social media for the past few months about how he's been single for years and he's this great guy with very few bad qualities and no diseases and a good job and he does everything right and even supports most of the basic tenets of feminism even though he thinks modern feminism is bullshit and the cause of more problems than it solves because it alienates men like him who are good and decent and just want the nice woman they're entitled to have by virtue of being a nice guy, and anyone who tries to spout platitudes to him about how it'll happen when he's not looking or maybe he needs to try online dating again should just fuck right off because he doesn't want to hear any help like that, he wants actual concrete help like a girl's phone number and someone to vouch that she's not going to bail on him after one coffee date because he's too intense or whatever...

I mean, he used to actually be a good guy, but wow. Like, I'm in a similar situation, been officially single for years and don't have any real prospects at the moment, but... the world doesn't owe either of us shit, you know? I tried to encourage him to embrace the love he does have in his life, because he does have friends and family that care deeply about him, and discounting their affections because none of them are touching his dick is not a great thing to be doing. But every time I've tried to talk to him he just whines more about how hard it is, and I don't understand because I'm not a man over 40 and it's easy for me (as if being a fat woman 2 years from 40 is a fucking cakewalk in the dating world, GTFO with that nonsense son)... oh, lord, the drama that erupted when he posted Jeff Reifman's "cutoff culture" blog post and none of his friends agreed that anyone owes anyone a perfect closure event after a breakup...

In any case, honestly, I can't get too upset when dudes do this sort of thing. I think it's pathetic and sad, to completely write off half the world because you didn't get the affection you thought you were entitled to from a small handful of women, but... thank you for saving me the trouble of actually trying to date you and discovering how deeply, almost irreparably damaged you are.
posted by palomar at 11:44 AM on September 25, 2015 [17 favorites]


Here's is the Laugh section of their website.

It's mostly virulently misogynist, uh, "humor."
posted by griphus at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2015


I don't see how protesting a Slut Walk with a sign that says "Feminism is a Refuge for Women's Sexual Failure" is (a) separating that dude from women (he seems pretty obsessed with women, actually) or (b) not eminently worthy of being mocked.

If these guys were actually forming like celibate monasteries where women weren't allowed and they could pursue whatever lifestyle they wanted, then fine, I wouldn't care. But they claim that they are swearing off women by continuing to browbeat us with how much they hate and despise us.
posted by muddgirl at 11:46 AM on September 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


slightly-less-legitimate misogyny.

Slightly?

Listen, I go through Twitter a couple of times per day, especially the accounts of prominent feminists, flagging threatening and abusive comments directed at them. I started doing this because a year or so ago I told somebody else on this site that it might be nice if men pitched in to address misogyny online, and I realized that I wasn't really doing it myself.

You cannot imagine how often they deal with MRA types attempting to scream and threaten them into silence. So I suggest trying what I am doing. I think every man would benefit from spending a day or two flagging misogynistic posts on Twitter and elsewhere.

Because it's an avalanche. An unbelievable avalanche. And we don't see it, because it's not directed at us. But, good Lord, these men are relentless.

They don't just deserve to be mocked. A lot of them deserve prison time.
posted by maxsparber at 11:47 AM on September 25, 2015 [27 favorites]


I've apparently found my dream job and it's the Official Licensor of Buggery and Fellatio

Bugger that. I don't need a license.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:47 AM on September 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


But as with religion, the important thing isn't the doctrine, but what adherents actually do with it.

So there's nothing wrong with a death cult as long as all they do is promote being really, really happy whenever anyone dies by any cause.
posted by XMLicious at 11:47 AM on September 25, 2015


These men are deeply miserable and obviously have real trouble interacting with society. They're dealing with it in ways that both hurt other people and further their own misery. Drug addicts and mentally ill people do the same thing and we shouldn't mock them either. I'm not saying anyone here needs to reach out to them or should feel personally guilty for their sad state, but there is no need to be cruel.
posted by yes i am a bisexual man at 11:47 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Their idea of living separately from women is to do their utmost to make the lives of women everywhere as terrible as their own.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:48 AM on September 25, 2015 [5 favorites]


If you are spending your time swearing at women, you haven't sworn off them; you are still deeply engaged. Only, apparently, you are hostily engaged with imaginary women, which seems even less productive than, say, having an imaginary girlfriend.

SEE HOW MUCH I AM IGNORING YOU!

SEE HOW LITTLE I CARE ABOUT GETTING ATTENTION FROM YOU!

ARE YOU NOT HURTING BECAUSE OF HOW LITTLE I CARE AND HOW MUCH I AM IGNORING YOU? AREN'T YOU?

... aren't you?
posted by theorique at 11:48 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


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