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October 8, 2015 10:32 AM Subscribe
Marvel Studios is following up on that mid-credits scene from Ant-Man by announcing a sequel for 2018, titled Ant-Man and the Wasp.
This will shift around the release dates for a couple of previously announced movies. Black Panther moves up to February 16, 2018 while Captain Marvel moves back to March 8, 2019. Also announced were three untitled films for 2020!
This will shift around the release dates for a couple of previously announced movies. Black Panther moves up to February 16, 2018 while Captain Marvel moves back to March 8, 2019. Also announced were three untitled films for 2020!
Yay!
(And boo on the Captain Marvel thing, obviously)
I'm wondering if the last Captain America needs retroactively retitling "...and Black Widow".
posted by Artw at 10:40 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
(And boo on the Captain Marvel thing, obviously)
I'm wondering if the last Captain America needs retroactively retitling "...and Black Widow".
posted by Artw at 10:40 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
It doesn't need a costume joke. Those were always fairly sexist, anyway.
posted by mephron at 10:41 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by mephron at 10:41 AM on October 8, 2015
To be fair, you think more superheroes would change their costumes. I mean, it's not like the saying is "With great power comes wearing the same damn spandex jumpsuit for 40 years...."
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:47 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:47 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
This was such a pleasant surprise this morning, as was the initial Ant-Man movie.
I recently tried to rewatch "Avengers: Age of Ultron", and man - the shaky-cam and excessive CGI just wore me out.
Ant-Man was a nice change of pace, that's for sure.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I recently tried to rewatch "Avengers: Age of Ultron", and man - the shaky-cam and excessive CGI just wore me out.
Ant-Man was a nice change of pace, that's for sure.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah I'm excited for a lot of the upcoming Marvel movies (Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel), but I'm worried the Avengers movies are going to be more like obligations so I can follow the state of everything else.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:56 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:56 AM on October 8, 2015
Avengers 2 being the dud of the year and Ant Man being the success (at least in terms of audience reaction) is still a bit of a shocker to me.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
Oh and I should add that having cool individual movies alongside event team up nonsense you pay for because you have to has replicated the comics consumption experience on the big screen pretty faithfully, so kudos for that, I guess...
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:59 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:59 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
When's Ant Man going to hit video? I keep looking for it, everything else that came out at that time is already available.
posted by Windigo at 11:03 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Windigo at 11:03 AM on October 8, 2015
It doesn't need a costume joke. Those were always fairly sexist, anyway.
That depends.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:05 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
That depends.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:05 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Count me in wishing we had Captain Marvel first.
posted by Atreides at 11:07 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Atreides at 11:07 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Huh, a woman finally ranks second billing to a man!
posted by shakespeherian at 11:08 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 11:08 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh and I should add that having cool individual movies alongside event team up nonsense you pay for because you have to has replicated the comics consumption experience on the big screen pretty faithfully, so kudos for that, I guess...
TBH I dint think there's any real reason anyone needs to see Avengers 2 to enjoy anything else - Agents of SHIELD, maybe? I don't know, I didn't watch that.
I have a theory that everyone has got the MCUs role in the success of the Marvel movies wrong - it's not there to provide continuity and make the films episodes in an ongoing story, it's more there to provide a universe in which super heroics can happen and a framework of stuff that they can fall back on without having to introduce SHIELD or pym particles or Asgard or whatever each time.
posted by Artw at 11:09 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
TBH I dint think there's any real reason anyone needs to see Avengers 2 to enjoy anything else - Agents of SHIELD, maybe? I don't know, I didn't watch that.
I have a theory that everyone has got the MCUs role in the success of the Marvel movies wrong - it's not there to provide continuity and make the films episodes in an ongoing story, it's more there to provide a universe in which super heroics can happen and a framework of stuff that they can fall back on without having to introduce SHIELD or pym particles or Asgard or whatever each time.
posted by Artw at 11:09 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah I'm excited for a lot of the upcoming Marvel movies (Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel), but I'm worried the Avengers movies are going to be more like obligations so I can follow the state of everything else.
Welcome to Event Comics! Everything Old is New Again!
I'm hoping one of the Unnamed Three is a Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl team-up.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Welcome to Event Comics! Everything Old is New Again!
I'm hoping one of the Unnamed Three is a Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl team-up.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
When's Ant Man going to hit video? I keep looking for it, everything else that came out at that time is already available.
It hasn't been announced, but I've seen guesses that it might be in time for Black Friday sales.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015
It hasn't been announced, but I've seen guesses that it might be in time for Black Friday sales.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015
when is the long-awaited cinematic release of Captain America and Superman Rescue Some Puppies From A Burning Building With Their Enormous Muscular Yet Gentle Arms
posted by poffin boffin at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't even say that AOU was so much of a dud as it was a combination of the first movie and general Whedon-worship setting up unrealizable expectations. That having been said, I have to admit that one of the highlights of the movie was probably the last-scene promise of a Captain America/Black Widow/Falcon/War Machine/Scarlet Witch/Vision Avengers.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015
Still haven't seen this but hoping to watch it when it hits home release. Also hoping that it rekindles my love for superhero films, because I've been burnt out the last few years. I just don't care anymore. Too much on television and in the theatre, so overwhelming. Maybe hope is too strong a word....
posted by Fizz at 11:22 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Fizz at 11:22 AM on October 8, 2015
when is the long-awaited cinematic release of Captain America and Superman Rescue Some Puppies From A Burning Building With Their Enormous Muscular Yet Gentle Arms
You left off "...and then there is kissing."
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
You left off "...and then there is kissing."
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
ABOUT DAMN TIME.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:26 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by nicebookrack at 11:26 AM on October 8, 2015
the kissing is not until the sequel, Captain America and Superman Gently Sponge Soot Off Of Each Other's Bare Chests After A Hard Day Of Rescuing Puppies From A Burning Building (working title)
posted by poffin boffin at 11:27 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:27 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
When's Ant Man going to hit video? I keep looking for it, everything else that came out at that time is already available.
Avengers 2 only hit DVD/BR within the last couple of weeks, so I'd expect to see Ant-Man on disc in another couple of months, since the movies were released theatrically about that time apart. Looking at various DVD websites I see an approximate Dec 2015 release date, which also goes along with the time frame.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:27 AM on October 8, 2015
Avengers 2 only hit DVD/BR within the last couple of weeks, so I'd expect to see Ant-Man on disc in another couple of months, since the movies were released theatrically about that time apart. Looking at various DVD websites I see an approximate Dec 2015 release date, which also goes along with the time frame.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:27 AM on October 8, 2015
I bow my head in respect at your superior screenwriting skills.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2015
I wonder if the second Marvel collection (everything from... Iron Man 3 to Ant-Man, I think) will be out in time for the holidays, or if it will be delayed by ridiculous packaging snafus again...
Ant-Man had the best Stan Lee cameo, hands down.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:29 AM on October 8, 2015
Ant-Man had the best Stan Lee cameo, hands down.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:29 AM on October 8, 2015
I didn't mind AoU too much, actually. I think the biggest problem is that it had too much going on and not enough room to breathe.
posted by brundlefly at 11:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 11:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hope we get an uncut Scharpling cameo.
posted by Old Man Wilson at 11:31 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Old Man Wilson at 11:31 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Least awful Stan cameo anyway. Man I am so sick of them.
posted by phearlez at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by phearlez at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2015
AoU should have been about 1/2 an hour longer or have had a 1/3 fewer characters running around.
posted by octothorpe at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Least awful Stan cameo anyway. Man I am so sick of them.
Just wait until he passes away and they still wheel his Lenin-esque corpse onscreen so someone can ventriloquize a squeaky Excelsior! out of his cavernous rotting face hole
posted by shakespeherian at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Just wait until he passes away and they still wheel his Lenin-esque corpse onscreen so someone can ventriloquize a squeaky Excelsior! out of his cavernous rotting face hole
posted by shakespeherian at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh, I really didn't care for Ant-Man. I just kept wondering why that guy's daughter, you know, the one who knew how to use all the equipment, was an insider in the corporation, could control ants with her mind, etc.? That person? Why she couldn't have been the Ant Person, and we didn't need to train goofy (yet charming) Paul Rudd.
I guess the next movie, she'll chuckle heartily at him until it's time for him to save her over and over again.
posted by xingcat at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess the next movie, she'll chuckle heartily at him until it's time for him to save her over and over again.
posted by xingcat at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I hope Cap 3 had the required focus to get over its vast cast.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015
... Excelsior! out of his cavernous rotting face hole
See now I'm gonna be mad if that doesn't happen.
posted by griphus at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
See now I'm gonna be mad if that doesn't happen.
posted by griphus at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Guardians almost had his frozen head bouncing down a hallway...
posted by Artw at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by Artw at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2015
I just kept wondering why that guy's daughter, you know, the one who knew how to use all the equipment, was an insider in the corporation, could control ants with her mind, etc.? That person? Why she couldn't have been the Ant Person, and we didn't need to train goofy (yet charming) Paul Rudd.
What single parent wouldn't send his only child into harm's way, right?
posted by Tanizaki at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
What single parent wouldn't send his only child into harm's way, right?
posted by Tanizaki at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
"It doesn't need a costume joke. Those were always fairly sexist, anyway.
That depends."
Are superhero costumes supposed to be disguises? I thought they were all unintelligent and emotional immature and just liked dressing up like children. As far as disguises go, the vast majority of them are fucking shit. First of all, all any of them have ever needed was a simple mask. Maybe some pantyhose on the head, but you know, cover up the way that people identify one another. You know, you see batman's fucking nose and chin all the goddamn time you'll probably notice Bruce's. Especially after you beat the shit out of batman and bruce has identical jaw injury.
Superman gets a pass because he's absolute bullshit 100% so he can just make up some stupid fucking power to "hypnotize" everyone or whatever, but your average hero forgot significant parts of their armour and outfit and then also forget to conceal their identity in any way. These superheros familiy's should be murdered.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:48 AM on October 8, 2015
That depends."
Are superhero costumes supposed to be disguises? I thought they were all unintelligent and emotional immature and just liked dressing up like children. As far as disguises go, the vast majority of them are fucking shit. First of all, all any of them have ever needed was a simple mask. Maybe some pantyhose on the head, but you know, cover up the way that people identify one another. You know, you see batman's fucking nose and chin all the goddamn time you'll probably notice Bruce's. Especially after you beat the shit out of batman and bruce has identical jaw injury.
Superman gets a pass because he's absolute bullshit 100% so he can just make up some stupid fucking power to "hypnotize" everyone or whatever, but your average hero forgot significant parts of their armour and outfit and then also forget to conceal their identity in any way. These superheros familiy's should be murdered.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:48 AM on October 8, 2015
What single parent wouldn't send his only child into harm's way, right?
Oh, feh. That doesn't hold any water for me. If it were written as his son, maybe, but father/daughter, protective/rebel relationships are such a trope that no, I'm not going to buy it.
posted by xingcat at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, feh. That doesn't hold any water for me. If it were written as his son, maybe, but father/daughter, protective/rebel relationships are such a trope that no, I'm not going to buy it.
posted by xingcat at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
"The skull Ka-Zar drank out of was Stan's skull, so technically the cameo tradition has been upheld," said The Savage Land director Fred Savage. "I mean, I care about this stuff. I've been directing programs for years, I didn't just get the job because my name is- wait, my phone, hold on.... yes. yes.. But I... okay. OKAY. Yes! Ahem. Turns out that's exactly why I got the job and that the Lee estate's lawyer is en route, so I have to go now."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
In The Incredibles (which is the BEST superhero film, BTW, I'll fight every last one of you!) they pull pantyhose over their heads when they're out doing some unlicensed heroing.
posted by Harald74 at 11:51 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 11:51 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Are superhero costumes supposed to be disguises? I thought they were all unintelligent and emotional immature and just liked dressing up like children. As far as disguises go, the vast majority of them are fucking shit. First of all, all any of them have ever needed was a simple mask.
In the case of Ant-Man, as well as Iron Man, their costumes are pretty much the source of their superpowers. If your superhero MO is just jumping around and hitting people with sticks, then Daredevil's ninja PJs are sufficient. But if your power set involves using exotic particle physics to shrink or toting the weapons loadout of an F-16 on your back, you're gonna need something a bit more engineered.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:58 AM on October 8, 2015
In the case of Ant-Man, as well as Iron Man, their costumes are pretty much the source of their superpowers. If your superhero MO is just jumping around and hitting people with sticks, then Daredevil's ninja PJs are sufficient. But if your power set involves using exotic particle physics to shrink or toting the weapons loadout of an F-16 on your back, you're gonna need something a bit more engineered.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:58 AM on October 8, 2015
I am a little bit annoyed by the delay of Captain Marvel (the REAL first MCU film named after a heroine, c'mon Marvel) and Black Panther, but I am mostly relieved that those films and characters will be getting more space for build-up. I'm already worried that Marvel is rushing things by stuffing Black Panther (and all the Avengers [AND Spider-Man!]) into Captain America: Civil War.
Ant-Man was delightful in large part as an easygoing place to breathe in the MCU. Since Ant-Man and the Wasp won't have built-in Massive Required Dramatic Plot Buildup, it could be a huge boost as another lighthearted breather that builds up connections with the newer MCU (like Captain Marvel / Carol Danvers) and the less-showcased MCU (like Agents of SHIELD and Jessica Jones with the Netflix Defenders).
Hell, in the comics, Jessica Jones and Scott Lang / Ant-Man dated for a while, and Jessica and Carol were BFF. And while there's no way to shove Coulson back into the main Avengers movies without some "you're supposed to be dead!" awkwardness, no one on Team Ant would know him or care, and the Agents of SHIELD would have plenty of reasons to investigate mysterious shrinking people...
posted by nicebookrack at 12:00 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ant-Man was delightful in large part as an easygoing place to breathe in the MCU. Since Ant-Man and the Wasp won't have built-in Massive Required Dramatic Plot Buildup, it could be a huge boost as another lighthearted breather that builds up connections with the newer MCU (like Captain Marvel / Carol Danvers) and the less-showcased MCU (like Agents of SHIELD and Jessica Jones with the Netflix Defenders).
Hell, in the comics, Jessica Jones and Scott Lang / Ant-Man dated for a while, and Jessica and Carol were BFF. And while there's no way to shove Coulson back into the main Avengers movies without some "you're supposed to be dead!" awkwardness, no one on Team Ant would know him or care, and the Agents of SHIELD would have plenty of reasons to investigate mysterious shrinking people...
posted by nicebookrack at 12:00 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Black Panther is moving up a few months, not back. Captain Marvel moving back makes as they haven't cast the role yet, are still working on story
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:04 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:04 PM on October 8, 2015
Oh, feh. That doesn't hold any water for me.
That's not an argument. Don't know if you're a parent or not, but I know I'd send some ex-con into harm's way before my kid. This is a common fact thrown in the face of legislators who vote in favor of military action, as you may not know.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015
That's not an argument. Don't know if you're a parent or not, but I know I'd send some ex-con into harm's way before my kid. This is a common fact thrown in the face of legislators who vote in favor of military action, as you may not know.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015
I was kinda hoping for a movie more about Luis and his crew.
Y'know, just make an Ocean's Eleven-like heist movie with Luis, Black Widow, fake Mandarin (Ben Kingsley), and Loki. Maybe have Rhodes be the straight-man in all this, but only because I like Don Cheadle.
posted by FJT at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Y'know, just make an Ocean's Eleven-like heist movie with Luis, Black Widow, fake Mandarin (Ben Kingsley), and Loki. Maybe have Rhodes be the straight-man in all this, but only because I like Don Cheadle.
posted by FJT at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh, I really didn't care for Ant-Man. I just kept wondering why that guy's daughter, you know, the one who knew how to use all the equipment, was an insider in the corporation, could control ants with her mind, etc.? That person? Why she couldn't have been the Ant Person, and we didn't need to train goofy (yet charming) Paul Rudd.
I expect you (like me) would kill to see the real Star Wars story*: "Hey, who wants to see Star Wars from Leia’s perspective?"
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
I expect you (like me) would kill to see the real Star Wars story*: "Hey, who wants to see Star Wars from Leia’s perspective?"
Imagine the ‘New Hope’ is Princess Leia, not her farm boy twin. Imagine the tale starting with how the princess becomes a youthful senator, but when her idealism hits the corruption of the Empire, it doesn’t crumble, but is hardened into joining the rebellion, learning to fight: diplomat and princess by day, guerrilla fighter and leader of the resistance by night! She’s like Batman, but with less ego - she doesn’t need to grandstand, she just gets the job done.* Previously.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Plagiarizing myself from the Fanfare thread: making Hope / Wasp sit out Ant-Man was both totally obnoxious meta-level sexist sidelining AND totally plausible story-level story and character logic. "Hank Pym is a sexist secretive stubborn manipulative control freak? QUELLE SURPRISE!"
I was simultaneously very annoyed and a little impressed by it.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was simultaneously very annoyed and a little impressed by it.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Black Panther is moving up a few months, not back. Captain Marvel moving back makes as they haven't cast the role yet, are still working on story
Ugh, I somehow missed that about BP; I thought they were both being delayed. Then I really hope the Russo Bros can work some rapid magic with BP in Civil War, because I badly want that movie/character to succeed.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:14 PM on October 8, 2015
Ugh, I somehow missed that about BP; I thought they were both being delayed. Then I really hope the Russo Bros can work some rapid magic with BP in Civil War, because I badly want that movie/character to succeed.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:14 PM on October 8, 2015
I'm excited for the news, but I felt Evangeline Lilly was miscast in the first one. She felt like she was in the movie but not really a part of the movie, and I don't think that was entirely the fault of the script sidelining her. But I remain hopeful the sequel figures her character out a little better.
posted by Ian A.T. at 12:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ian A.T. at 12:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't know if you're a parent or not, but I know I'd send some ex-con into harm's way before my kid.
Not sure why you expect realistic parenting behavior in a movie about people who can control ants with their mind and have a magical suit that makes them shrink to ant size. If any marvel writer ever thought to themselves even in the briefest most fleeting of moments "would a single parent ever REALLY make this choice in this cinematic situation which already defies the known laws of physics in the universe" I will literally eat 100 ants right now.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not sure why you expect realistic parenting behavior in a movie about people who can control ants with their mind and have a magical suit that makes them shrink to ant size. If any marvel writer ever thought to themselves even in the briefest most fleeting of moments "would a single parent ever REALLY make this choice in this cinematic situation which already defies the known laws of physics in the universe" I will literally eat 100 ants right now.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
100 ANTS
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
the little non-bitey ones, though, not those winged florida monstrosities.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015
The plot of the sequel is obvious, isn't it?
This takes place after both the Infinity War and Doctor Strange, so all of our Phase 1 and 2 heroes are scattered, and the Quantum Realm is more explored (and we perhaps even see the original Wasp, Janet, make an appearance among all of this). Carson escaped with the Yellowjacket particles created by Cross, so now he's the threat, likely in cahoots with whatever of the Captain America villains survive (e.g. Baron Zemo, Crossbones).
Ant-Man, the Wasp and the crew of thieves have to perform another heist to steal it back and/or destroy it all. They'll be aided by Anthony Mackie as the new Captain America, and/or possibly Spider-Man.
The notable part here will be how the Pym particles can enlarge people in addition to shrinking them, and Michael Pena's character will be enlarged, and it will be hysterically funny. Meanwhile, Hank Pym has been working to free Janet from the Quantum Realm, and he succeeds, but he's an old man while she hasn't aged at all, and it's likely that he dies heroically in the process.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:34 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
This takes place after both the Infinity War and Doctor Strange, so all of our Phase 1 and 2 heroes are scattered, and the Quantum Realm is more explored (and we perhaps even see the original Wasp, Janet, make an appearance among all of this). Carson escaped with the Yellowjacket particles created by Cross, so now he's the threat, likely in cahoots with whatever of the Captain America villains survive (e.g. Baron Zemo, Crossbones).
Ant-Man, the Wasp and the crew of thieves have to perform another heist to steal it back and/or destroy it all. They'll be aided by Anthony Mackie as the new Captain America, and/or possibly Spider-Man.
The notable part here will be how the Pym particles can enlarge people in addition to shrinking them, and Michael Pena's character will be enlarged, and it will be hysterically funny. Meanwhile, Hank Pym has been working to free Janet from the Quantum Realm, and he succeeds, but he's an old man while she hasn't aged at all, and it's likely that he dies heroically in the process.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:34 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not sure why you expect realistic parenting behavior in a movie about people who can control ants with their mind and have a magical suit that makes them shrink to ant size.
That's kind of the whole point of these movies. "Superheroes! They're just like us!" Seriously -- the audience can only identify with the main character(s) to the extent that they feel, think, and behave like we do, or at least like we believe we do.
posted by amtho at 12:39 PM on October 8, 2015
That's kind of the whole point of these movies. "Superheroes! They're just like us!" Seriously -- the audience can only identify with the main character(s) to the extent that they feel, think, and behave like we do, or at least like we believe we do.
posted by amtho at 12:39 PM on October 8, 2015
Do you have 100 ants on you, right now?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:41 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:41 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
yes. yes i do.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:44 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:44 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe have Rhodes be the straight-man in all this, but only because I like Don Cheadle.
I just remembered that Cheadle was in Ocean's Eleven!! (slaps forehead)
posted by FJT at 12:45 PM on October 8, 2015
I just remembered that Cheadle was in Ocean's Eleven!! (slaps forehead)
posted by FJT at 12:45 PM on October 8, 2015
Where did you get 100 ants from?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on October 8, 2015
Do you have 100 ants on you, right now?
You just know that science is going to tell you that not only do you have 100 ants on you but you are actually 100 ants yourself acting in a loosely coordinated fashion and displaying some interesting emergent properties.
posted by srboisvert at 12:47 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
You just know that science is going to tell you that not only do you have 100 ants on you but you are actually 100 ants yourself acting in a loosely coordinated fashion and displaying some interesting emergent properties.
posted by srboisvert at 12:47 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do you have 100 ants on you, right now?
Don't you? Doesn't everybody? It's a standard security practice in these parts. "Better without your pants than without your ants," as my father used to say.*
* in this interests of full honesty, my father, to the best of my knowledge, never even thought this sentence, let alone uttered it, but memory is a funny thing, with quantum realms and all...
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:56 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Don't you? Doesn't everybody? It's a standard security practice in these parts. "Better without your pants than without your ants," as my father used to say.*
* in this interests of full honesty, my father, to the best of my knowledge, never even thought this sentence, let alone uttered it, but memory is a funny thing, with quantum realms and all...
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:56 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
i am ants georg
posted by poffin boffin at 12:58 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:58 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Black Panther is moving up a few months, not back. Captain Marvel moving back makes as they haven't cast the role yet, are still working on story.
If they haven't cast the role yet, they haven't been paying attention.
posted by 256 at 1:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
If they haven't cast the role yet, they haven't been paying attention.
posted by 256 at 1:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel bad saying this because what if she fights me, she will definitely win and I will have so many medical bills, but Ronda Rousey is not really a very excellent actress even as a bit part in Expendables 3; I can't see how she could carry an entire film on her own.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:25 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:25 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Imagine the tale starting with how the princess becomes a youthful senator, but when her idealism hits the corruption of the Empire...she finds she will do anything to cling on to the privilege of her rank.
posted by biffa at 1:26 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 1:26 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are superhero costumes supposed to be disguises? I thought they were all unintelligent and emotional immature and just liked dressing up like children. As far as disguises go, the vast majority of them are fucking shit. First of all, all any of them have ever needed was a simple mask. Maybe some pantyhose on the head, but you know, cover up the way that people identify one another. You know, you see batman's fucking nose and chin all the goddamn time you'll probably notice Bruce's. Especially after you beat the shit out of batman and bruce has identical jaw injury.
MeFi's own Warren Ellis, ladies and gentlemen.
I wouldkill wedgie each and every one of you to get a NEXTWAVE movie.
posted by phearlez at 1:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
MeFi's own Warren Ellis, ladies and gentlemen.
I would
posted by phearlez at 1:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would kill wedgie each and every one of you to get a NEXTWAVE movie.
OK, Aisha Tyler as Monica Rambeau, that's easy. But the rest of the team? That's hard. But entirely worth all the effort to have Elvis-jumpsuited MODOKs.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:12 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
OK, Aisha Tyler as Monica Rambeau, that's easy. But the rest of the team? That's hard. But entirely worth all the effort to have Elvis-jumpsuited MODOKs.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:12 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
We're getting a Damage Control sitcom; NEXTWAVE is not off the menu!
(I'm tentatively excited in a cautious way for the also-mentioned Marvel's Most Wanted, because ZOMG it's Mockingbird / Lance Hunter-AKA-"MCU Hawkguy with a British accent!" but ZOMG I will weep to lose the FitzCoulHunter bromance! (Wait, throw Mack in there too.))
posted by nicebookrack at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I'm tentatively excited in a cautious way for the also-mentioned Marvel's Most Wanted, because ZOMG it's Mockingbird / Lance Hunter-AKA-"MCU Hawkguy with a British accent!" but ZOMG I will weep to lose the FitzCoulHunter bromance! (Wait, throw Mack in there too.))
posted by nicebookrack at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are there decent pirated versions of Ant Man on the torrent sites, or is it all shaky handheld cam versions? I'm more invested in supporting the institution of piracy than I am in supporting the MCU, but cam versions make me seasick.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:32 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:32 PM on October 8, 2015
If they haven't cast the role yet, they haven't been paying attention.
Ronda Rousey is a hell of an athlete. But she can't act beyond the WWE level. She could be the villain's badass evil henchwoman.
Your 2016 vote should be Tricia Helfer for Captain Marvel.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:38 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ronda Rousey is a hell of an athlete. But she can't act beyond the WWE level. She could be the villain's badass evil henchwoman.
Your 2016 vote should be Tricia Helfer for Captain Marvel.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:38 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, Tricia had the acting chops to pull it off!
Supposedly they're not gonna cast the role this year, still ironing out the story, whatever that means.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 PM on October 8, 2015
Supposedly they're not gonna cast the role this year, still ironing out the story, whatever that means.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 PM on October 8, 2015
If they're looking for more of an unknown candidate, I think Ivana Milicevic could do the job. She kicks ass and takes names on Banshee, so we can expand the pool of female action stars by one.
posted by sardonyx at 5:29 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sardonyx at 5:29 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
OK, Aisha Tyler as Monica Rambeau, that's easy. But the rest of the team? That's hard.
I'm bad at this game, but Johnny "Fear and Loathing" Depp as Dirk Anger, surely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:34 PM on October 8, 2015
I'm bad at this game, but Johnny "Fear and Loathing" Depp as Dirk Anger, surely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:34 PM on October 8, 2015
I think Benicio Del Toro would be a great Robot. Paul Blackthorne would be a great Captain but comic nerds are probably too attached to him in Arrow.
posted by phearlez at 6:17 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by phearlez at 6:17 PM on October 8, 2015
Benicio Del Toro is already The Collector! Don't cross the streams!
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:26 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:26 PM on October 8, 2015
Benicio Del Toro is already The Collector! Don't cross the streams!
Given how Monica's memories surfaced in (New Avengers?) Crossing the streams seems like the likely out.
Although it's all up for grabs post-Secret Wars...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:32 PM on October 8, 2015
Given how Monica's memories surfaced in (New Avengers?) Crossing the streams seems like the likely out.
Although it's all up for grabs post-Secret Wars...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:32 PM on October 8, 2015
Benicio Del Toro is already The Collector! Don't cross the streams!
In a Ray Stevenson interview, he said that, if you've already played a comic book superhero/supervillain in any movie, no matter how perfect the casting might seem to be, Marvel now has a house rule that they won't cast you as anything else. If you're one character, you are now always that character.
He's the lone exception to the rule, playing the Punisher and Volstagg, but he said his agent had received word that he shouldn't bothering seeking anything else.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:47 PM on October 8, 2015
In a Ray Stevenson interview, he said that, if you've already played a comic book superhero/supervillain in any movie, no matter how perfect the casting might seem to be, Marvel now has a house rule that they won't cast you as anything else. If you're one character, you are now always that character.
He's the lone exception to the rule, playing the Punisher and Volstagg, but he said his agent had received word that he shouldn't bothering seeking anything else.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:47 PM on October 8, 2015
Weeeelllll, reportedly Kevin Feige himself told Zachary Levi (Fandral #2) that playing one Marvel character doesn't preclude you from playing another, so perhaps Marvel REALLY likes Levi or they were trying to let Stevenson down gently.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:31 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 9:31 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also if Disney/MCU would like to continue poaching hotass regulars from Disney/ABC's Once Upon a Time, may I suggest Robert Carlyle and Barbara Hershey as anyone in Marvel they care to play and/or Colin O'Donoghue and Lana Parilla as anyone in Marvel who wears intense eyeliner.
Barbara Hershey as Doctor Doom? I vote yes!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:12 PM on October 8, 2015
Barbara Hershey as Doctor Doom? I vote yes!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:12 PM on October 8, 2015
Marvel now has a house rule that they won't cast you as anything else
This is a good place to publicly eat crow for all my public doubts that the guy who did a pretty good smart-ass Johnny Storm would also be able to pull off a WW2 granndpa so noble & earnest he's more inspiring than corny.
So I guess Marvel is determined not to have another disaster like Chris Evans again?
posted by straight at 10:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a good place to publicly eat crow for all my public doubts that the guy who did a pretty good smart-ass Johnny Storm would also be able to pull off a WW2 granndpa so noble & earnest he's more inspiring than corny.
So I guess Marvel is determined not to have another disaster like Chris Evans again?
posted by straight at 10:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess they'll be cancelling the new Deadpool movie once they realise Ryan Reynolds is already a rubbish vampire hunter. None of the first appearances were MCU, including Stephenson's, so they don't have that out. Maybe Feige was trying to be polite...
posted by biffa at 10:47 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by biffa at 10:47 PM on October 8, 2015
Poop, just realised deadpool is not MCU either, so nothing to do with Feige. I'm blaming the insomnia.
posted by biffa at 10:49 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by biffa at 10:49 PM on October 8, 2015
Did I miss the squee about the new AKA Jessica Jones trailer? Complete with creepy David Tennant?
Because November 20th cannot come soon enough.
posted by Mezentian at 5:56 AM on October 9, 2015
Because November 20th cannot come soon enough.
posted by Mezentian at 5:56 AM on October 9, 2015
We got ya covered on the Jessica Jones post!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
A new FREE Jessica Jones digital oneshot comic set in the MCU, for Netflix series hype. Written by Jessica's creator Brian Michael Bendis!
posted by nicebookrack at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2015
posted by nicebookrack at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2015
That's not an argument. Don't know if you're a parent or not, but I know I'd send some ex-con into harm's way before my kid. This is a common fact thrown in the face of legislators who vote in favor of military action, as you may not know.
It's amazing how obeying the unbending dictates of human nature ALWAYS leads writers to exclude women, characters of color, and queer characters in favor of yet another "relatable" white guy with no particular skills or ambitions.
posted by chaiminda at 7:07 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's amazing how obeying the unbending dictates of human nature ALWAYS leads writers to exclude women, characters of color, and queer characters in favor of yet another "relatable" white guy with no particular skills or ambitions.
posted by chaiminda at 7:07 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm excited for the news, but I felt Evangeline Lilly was miscast in the first one. She felt like she was in the movie but not really a part of the movie, and I don't think that was entirely the fault of the script sidelining her.
Apparently, Lilly's role was expanded, in part at her behest, in the rewrites after Edgar Wright bailed on the film, which could explain why her character seems a bit disjointed.
I would kill wedgie each and every one of you to get a NEXTWAVE movie.
I would let Fin Fang Foom put me in his pants to get a NEXTWAVE movie...
posted by peteyjlawson at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Apparently, Lilly's role was expanded, in part at her behest, in the rewrites after Edgar Wright bailed on the film, which could explain why her character seems a bit disjointed.
I would kill wedgie each and every one of you to get a NEXTWAVE movie.
I would let Fin Fang Foom put me in his pants to get a NEXTWAVE movie...
posted by peteyjlawson at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's amazing how obeying the unbending dictates of human nature ALWAYS leads writers to exclude women, characters of color, and queer characters in favor of yet another "relatable" white guy with no particular skills or ambitions.
This reminds me of the people who defended Superman's seeming disinterest in saving bystanders in Man of Steel by saying that he was in a situation where he was incapable of doing that. First of all, I don't buy that on logical or dramatic levels. But also it's not like the writers of the film were presented with a shitty situation and had to write within those constraints. They came up with the situation. They could have just not done that.
I haven't seen Ant-Man yet, but if the logic behind the daughter not becoming a superhero is that the father is protective... Yeah, that doesn't hold water. How about writing the father as someone who is aware of his daughter's skills and respects her ability to take care of herself. Someone who is hesitant to send his child into harm's way but also does what he thinks needs to be done. I mean, there are parents who want their children to join the military.
Obviously she can't be the hero in this movie because that movie's called Ant-Man, but there have to better ways to write around that.
posted by brundlefly at 2:16 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of the people who defended Superman's seeming disinterest in saving bystanders in Man of Steel by saying that he was in a situation where he was incapable of doing that. First of all, I don't buy that on logical or dramatic levels. But also it's not like the writers of the film were presented with a shitty situation and had to write within those constraints. They came up with the situation. They could have just not done that.
I haven't seen Ant-Man yet, but if the logic behind the daughter not becoming a superhero is that the father is protective... Yeah, that doesn't hold water. How about writing the father as someone who is aware of his daughter's skills and respects her ability to take care of herself. Someone who is hesitant to send his child into harm's way but also does what he thinks needs to be done. I mean, there are parents who want their children to join the military.
Obviously she can't be the hero in this movie because that movie's called Ant-Man, but there have to better ways to write around that.
posted by brundlefly at 2:16 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
if the logic behind the daughter not becoming a superhero is that the father is protective... Yeah, that doesn't hold water
I have seen the film, and it does. Mostly.
Hank saw his wife die because she was capable, so capable, that she got herself comic-killed.
Not only did he not want that life for Hope, he didn't want it for himself.
He was forced into action when Darren Cross worked out the technology. And, yes, he put Hope in harm's way, begrudingly, but he did it.
The logic doesn't quite work, but it's not that flimsy either.
posted by Mezentian at 3:39 AM on October 12, 2015
I have seen the film, and it does. Mostly.
Hank saw his wife die because she was capable, so capable, that she got herself comic-killed.
Not only did he not want that life for Hope, he didn't want it for himself.
He was forced into action when Darren Cross worked out the technology. And, yes, he put Hope in harm's way, begrudingly, but he did it.
The logic doesn't quite work, but it's not that flimsy either.
posted by Mezentian at 3:39 AM on October 12, 2015
Ultimately the logic works because Hank realizes he was wrong, Hope gets a suit and the next movie has both their names in the title.
Could Hope have worn the suit in the first movie? Sure, any number of plots could have worked. But that doesn't mean the reasoning that was used doesn't work.
Hell, having Hope wear the suit at first, be injured, and then Hank getting overprotective and bringing in Scott could have worked.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:54 AM on October 12, 2015
Could Hope have worn the suit in the first movie? Sure, any number of plots could have worked. But that doesn't mean the reasoning that was used doesn't work.
Hell, having Hope wear the suit at first, be injured, and then Hank getting overprotective and bringing in Scott could have worked.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:54 AM on October 12, 2015
It's not that this reasoning works or doesn't work. It's that the writers made the choice to have Jan be out of the picture. They made the choice to have Hope get sidelined in favor of Scott. They made the choice to have her not fight her father's choice and become a superhero anyway (something that would be very much in the spirit of the original Wasp and something we see in other superhero franchises all the damn time).
These are sexist choices. Whether they can be justified by logic or reason or typical human behavior does not change the fact that they are sexist and that they are part of a larger pattern of sexist (racist, homophobic) choices on the part of the Marvel filmmakers.
posted by chaiminda at 6:41 AM on October 12, 2015
These are sexist choices. Whether they can be justified by logic or reason or typical human behavior does not change the fact that they are sexist and that they are part of a larger pattern of sexist (racist, homophobic) choices on the part of the Marvel filmmakers.
posted by chaiminda at 6:41 AM on October 12, 2015
These are sexist choices.
Meh, swap the gender of Hope, keep everything exactly the same and Hank's reasoning still makes complete sense as a parent who's suffered ill effects from the suit and lost his beloved wife to adventuring.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 AM on October 12, 2015
Meh, swap the gender of Hope, keep everything exactly the same and Hank's reasoning still makes complete sense as a parent who's suffered ill effects from the suit and lost his beloved wife to adventuring.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 AM on October 12, 2015
Yes, but they did not swap Hope's gender. They made a choice to sideline a female character. That is what happened in the actual movie. "If they had done something completely different that would not have been sexist" is a really weird argument to make.
posted by chaiminda at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
"If they had done something completely different that would not have been sexist" is a really weird argument to make.
My argument was that if swapping genders doesn't change anything about Hope's arc, then having her be female isn't inherently sexist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2015
My argument was that if swapping genders doesn't change anything about Hope's arc, then having her be female isn't inherently sexist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2015
Yes, but they did not swap Hope's gender. They made a choice to sideline a female character.
Furthermore, it's a pattern that is fairly common in adventure movies (and books and comics, etc). It really can't be separated from the larger picture. It was a horribly written part, where her characterization changed dramatically to be whatever the male protagonist's narrative needed at that moment (something also woefully typical for adventure movies, comics, etc.). Similarly, the daughter (and ex-wife, etc) existed to further the hero's goals in pretty much every scene in which they appeared. Sort of like the way that Gamora was completely sidelined by the end of Guardians of the Galaxy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:56 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Furthermore, it's a pattern that is fairly common in adventure movies (and books and comics, etc). It really can't be separated from the larger picture. It was a horribly written part, where her characterization changed dramatically to be whatever the male protagonist's narrative needed at that moment (something also woefully typical for adventure movies, comics, etc.). Similarly, the daughter (and ex-wife, etc) existed to further the hero's goals in pretty much every scene in which they appeared. Sort of like the way that Gamora was completely sidelined by the end of Guardians of the Galaxy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:56 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess I really don't understand that argument, Brandon Blatcher. The problem is that these things don't usually happen to (white) male characters. They don't get their agency taken away. They don't get treated as afterthoughts. The fact that they made these choices for a female character is the entire problem. If the whole movie was genderswapped--if Jan were alive, didn't want to allow her son to train to be Antman, and picked a woman to do the job instead--that wouldn't be sexist, but that isn't the movie that got made. And I would argue that a lot of people would be puzzled by that movie. "Why is male!Hope just doing whatever his mom says? Why are they giving this job to some untalented loser instead of the person who has been training for it all his life?" Because these motivations don't really make sense unless you assume that there was no way to make this movie without it being All About Dudes, Again.
Sort of like the way that Gamora was completely sidelined by the end of Guardians of the Galaxy.
Yeah, I felt the same way about that role that the earlier poster does about Leia. Why exactly is Peter Quill the main character when Gamora is the one who has stronger motivation?
I mean, I know why. Because he's an average white dude.
posted by chaiminda at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sort of like the way that Gamora was completely sidelined by the end of Guardians of the Galaxy.
Yeah, I felt the same way about that role that the earlier poster does about Leia. Why exactly is Peter Quill the main character when Gamora is the one who has stronger motivation?
I mean, I know why. Because he's an average white dude.
posted by chaiminda at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The problem is that these things don't usually happen to (white) male characters. They don't get their agency taken away. They don't get treated as afterthoughts. The fact that they made these choices for a female character is the entire problem.
Good point. In the world of action movies, an adult male character in Hope's position would not allow himself to be sidelined. I doubt it would even occur to the writers to create a character like that.
posted by homunculus at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good point. In the world of action movies, an adult male character in Hope's position would not allow himself to be sidelined. I doubt it would even occur to the writers to create a character like that.
posted by homunculus at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good point. In the world of action movies, an adult male character in Hope's position would not allow himself to be sidelined. I doubt it would even occur to the writers to create a character like that.
Especially since it would have been trivial to come up with an plan that required Hope to do something that required her skill set and needed to be done at full size. It's not only demeaning but lazy, too. It's almost like they had a checklist
1. Male main character
2. Comic ethnic sidekicks
3. A couple of set pieces (left undefined for Spoilers)
4. ...
5. ...
6. Maybe a love interest/future Wasp...
7. Um, something for Michael Douglas to do....
8. Hydra... guest appearance....
Throw some dialogue around it and call it a day.
There are some nice little bits in the movie, but it's not like you get the impression they spent more than a tiny amount of attention on the script.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:42 AM on October 12, 2015
Especially since it would have been trivial to come up with an plan that required Hope to do something that required her skill set and needed to be done at full size. It's not only demeaning but lazy, too. It's almost like they had a checklist
1. Male main character
2. Comic ethnic sidekicks
3. A couple of set pieces (left undefined for Spoilers)
4. ...
5. ...
6. Maybe a love interest/future Wasp...
7. Um, something for Michael Douglas to do....
8. Hydra... guest appearance....
Throw some dialogue around it and call it a day.
There are some nice little bits in the movie, but it's not like you get the impression they spent more than a tiny amount of attention on the script.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:42 AM on October 12, 2015
Given that Edgar Wright fought for years to get Ant-Man made, and then later left the project, this is more like "what little bits from the original film survived after contact with the MCU Committee."
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:56 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:56 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think if you examine Ant-man by itself you can defend all these choices. I think coming on the heels of so much Marvel failure on this front - both so far and in how long it'll take for something to come along in the way of a female lead - you cannot.
posted by phearlez at 12:22 PM on October 12, 2015
posted by phearlez at 12:22 PM on October 12, 2015
Because these motivations don't really make sense unless you assume that there was no way to make this movie without it being All About Dudes, Again.
Oh, we totally agree that Hope could have had a larger role and it still would have been an enjoyable movie. Hell, it would have been a thrill to see Hope start shrinking and kicking ass in the lab scene where Scott was trapped. Later we would have found out that Hope had found the suit and worn it as back up.
If the whole movie was genderswapped--if Jan were alive, didn't want to allow her son to train to be Antman, and picked a woman to do the job instead--that wouldn't be sexist, but that isn't the movie that got made. And I would argue that a lot of people would be puzzled by that movie. "Why is male!Hope just doing whatever his mom says? Why are they giving this job to some untalented loser instead of the person who has been training for it all his life?"
First, I would totally watch a movie called The Wasp, which was just Ant-Man with the genders reversed. That would be a refreshing change.
Further, I'd argue that the plot and character still works. Parent doesn't want to risk child after being damaged by using the suit and losing their spouse. So yeah, they go find a talented person with a particular moral code and manipulate that person into using the suit in order to spare the child. The kid may be angry with parent, but hell, at least the kid's alive, which would be one of the main concerns of a parent.
I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist or that Marvel couldn't be doing a helluva lot better with their female characters. I'd kill for a scene with Betty Banner, Jane, Marcy (from Thor), Pepper , Black Widow and Maria Hill having lunch, shooting the breeze. Or just Betty and Jane talking science(!) stuff.
But with Ant-Man, I think the rational for not using Hope makes sense from Hank's sense and I don't think it diminished the character at all to have her in that secondary role. It works, in this very narrow instance.
I would have preferred to see her in a larger role and to have at least one female (national treasure Judy Greer?!) on Luis's crew of thieves to balance things out, but I pretty satisfied how the things shook out. I understood if others aren't.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:33 PM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, we totally agree that Hope could have had a larger role and it still would have been an enjoyable movie. Hell, it would have been a thrill to see Hope start shrinking and kicking ass in the lab scene where Scott was trapped. Later we would have found out that Hope had found the suit and worn it as back up.
If the whole movie was genderswapped--if Jan were alive, didn't want to allow her son to train to be Antman, and picked a woman to do the job instead--that wouldn't be sexist, but that isn't the movie that got made. And I would argue that a lot of people would be puzzled by that movie. "Why is male!Hope just doing whatever his mom says? Why are they giving this job to some untalented loser instead of the person who has been training for it all his life?"
First, I would totally watch a movie called The Wasp, which was just Ant-Man with the genders reversed. That would be a refreshing change.
Further, I'd argue that the plot and character still works. Parent doesn't want to risk child after being damaged by using the suit and losing their spouse. So yeah, they go find a talented person with a particular moral code and manipulate that person into using the suit in order to spare the child. The kid may be angry with parent, but hell, at least the kid's alive, which would be one of the main concerns of a parent.
I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist or that Marvel couldn't be doing a helluva lot better with their female characters. I'd kill for a scene with Betty Banner, Jane, Marcy (from Thor), Pepper , Black Widow and Maria Hill having lunch, shooting the breeze. Or just Betty and Jane talking science(!) stuff.
But with Ant-Man, I think the rational for not using Hope makes sense from Hank's sense and I don't think it diminished the character at all to have her in that secondary role. It works, in this very narrow instance.
I would have preferred to see her in a larger role and to have at least one female (national treasure Judy Greer?!) on Luis's crew of thieves to balance things out, but I pretty satisfied how the things shook out. I understood if others aren't.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:33 PM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd kill for a scene with Betty Banner, Jane, Marcy (from Thor), Pepper , Black Widow and Maria Hill having lunch, shooting the breeze. Or just Betty and Jane talking science(!) stuff.
It seems like you won't even go as far as to critique a movie you enjoyed in the interest of furthering gender parity, much less commit homicide.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2015
It seems like you won't even go as far as to critique a movie you enjoyed in the interest of furthering gender parity, much less commit homicide.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2015
Last paragraph of the comment before yours.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:21 PM on October 12, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:21 PM on October 12, 2015
Or the sentence before the one you quoted. Take your pick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:23 PM on October 12, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:23 PM on October 12, 2015
Brandon, people are mostly not questioning your assertion that the story sidelining Hope makes internal sense. They are questioning why the filmmakers chose to tell that story when they could have just as easily told a different story that makes equal sense but doesn't put Hope on the sidelines in the service of the male protagonist.
It's not that big a deal to take a sexist story and make the plot and characterization internally consistent such that the sexist parts of the story aren't motivated by overt sexism on the part of the characters in the story. The question is why do you have to tell a sexist story in the first place?
posted by straight at 1:43 PM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's not that big a deal to take a sexist story and make the plot and characterization internally consistent such that the sexist parts of the story aren't motivated by overt sexism on the part of the characters in the story. The question is why do you have to tell a sexist story in the first place?
posted by straight at 1:43 PM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
The question is why do you have to tell a sexist story in the first place?
And, furthermore, why do they always reach for a sexist story? Arguing that the story makes sense internally is kind of irrelevant; what people are reacting to is the crushing weight of previous superhero movies (and action films in general) also taking this same path. One of the things that made Fury Road so exhilarating was the amount of space and agency it gave its female characters (and supporting characters in general). Miller showed that it could be done and done easily; seeing the same old sexist thing trotted out in Ant-Man makes the latter look desperately weak by comparison, no matter what the "internal logic."
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:14 PM on October 12, 2015
And, furthermore, why do they always reach for a sexist story? Arguing that the story makes sense internally is kind of irrelevant; what people are reacting to is the crushing weight of previous superhero movies (and action films in general) also taking this same path. One of the things that made Fury Road so exhilarating was the amount of space and agency it gave its female characters (and supporting characters in general). Miller showed that it could be done and done easily; seeing the same old sexist thing trotted out in Ant-Man makes the latter look desperately weak by comparison, no matter what the "internal logic."
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:14 PM on October 12, 2015
Mezentian: Hank saw his wife die because she was capable, so capable, that she got herself comic-killed. Not only did he not want that life for Hope, he didn't want it for himself. He was forced into action when Darren Cross worked out the technology. And, yes, he put Hope in harm's way, begrudingly, but he did it. The logic doesn't quite work, but it's not that flimsy either.
I'm not suggesting that the story doesn't make internal sense. I haven't seen it. How can I? But writers aren't slaves to an alternate universe where Ant-Guy is a person who really exists and This Is Just How Things Are. Things are the way they are due to decisions on the parts of the filmmakers. They could easily have decided to write a story that doesn't sideline this character and is still internally consistent.
I guess I'm not really criticizing this film in particular, not having seen it, but this line of argument.
posted by brundlefly at 3:56 PM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not suggesting that the story doesn't make internal sense. I haven't seen it. How can I? But writers aren't slaves to an alternate universe where Ant-Guy is a person who really exists and This Is Just How Things Are. Things are the way they are due to decisions on the parts of the filmmakers. They could easily have decided to write a story that doesn't sideline this character and is still internally consistent.
I guess I'm not really criticizing this film in particular, not having seen it, but this line of argument.
posted by brundlefly at 3:56 PM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
In other news: People Are Very Mad That the New Captain America Is Acting Like Captain America
posted by homunculus at 10:55 PM on October 21, 2015
posted by homunculus at 10:55 PM on October 21, 2015
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posted by wormwood23 at 10:36 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]