Democratic Debate 2015
October 13, 2015 12:53 PM   Subscribe

Tonight's Debate debate will be the first time a major news event will be broadcast live in virtual reality. That might not be such a good idea. Here is the When, the Where, the Who and How to Watch.

CNN has a podium standing by just in case Joe Biden shows up and Donald Trump will be live Tweeting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy (1419 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite
 
Advance footage of some audience members.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Biden is officially out, unless he has access to secret teleportation tech
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


No official drinking game.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:02 PM on October 13, 2015


I thought the virtual reality problems was a fascinating read, especially the part about it inducing nausea.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:02 PM on October 13, 2015


Virtual candidates, eh? Is it too late to add Hatsune Miku to the debate?
posted by Rangi at 1:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Biden is officially out, unless he has access to secret teleportation tech

Maybe Biden is plotting a dramatic "Max Headroom" broadcast signal intrusion.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [35 favorites]


Biden is officially out, unless he has access to secret teleportation tech

Hillary Clinton: "That's an excellent question, and I just want to say--"
HAIL COLUMBIA STARTS PLAYING
Anderson Cooper: "Bah gawd, that's Joe Biden's music! Joe Biden is here!"
JOE BIDEN HITS MARTIN O'MALLEY WITH A CHAIR
Joe Biden: "Diamond Joe was just hangin' and bangin' with his buddies here in beautiful LAS! VEGAS! NEVADA!"
CROWD ERUPTS FOR CHEAP POP
posted by Etrigan at 1:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [136 favorites]


The last thing I want to invite into my virtual reality is politicians.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


They should dust off Wolf Blitzer's old Will.I.Am hologram machine and do it via hologram.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


> "CROWD ERUPTS FOR CHEAP POP"
BAGAWD WHY DON'T THE MODERATOR STOP THIS THIS IS INSANITY
posted by boo_radley at 1:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


I want Biden to enter the race just because it would make the debates more fun and interesting.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


A little cheat sheet
posted by growabrain at 1:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [22 favorites]




fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:17 PM on October 13, 2015


Any hints about how this can be watched overseas? Especially considering I'm really grouchy about the idea of needing a VPN in order to watch what should be publically available.. (I will apparently be awake for somewhat unrelated reasons, and perhaps could use a break.)
posted by nat at 1:18 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm actually looking forward to seeing Bernie and Hillary talk. I'm fairly indifferent to the other two (three?) who seem primarily to be props so the stage doesn't look empty after the Republican Clown Car and Word Wrangling Rodeo.

Virtual reality seems like an insane thing to do, but whatever. At least the folks who own the rigs will have a chance to see something new with them, so...yay? Else, I don't really understand the motivator to do that, unless Sangermaine is right; and Biden is blowing in through the virtual door. A thing which I doubt, but would be so damn funny if true.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


CNN has a podium ready: Waiting for Joe-dot.
posted by bonehead at 1:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


//Hesitantly waves hands in front of face, looks around.//
posted by resurrexit at 1:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Not watching, because (a) CNN, and (b) it's October 2015 for chrissakes, but I will endorse this link as my prediction of how it goes and, much more importantly, how it's covered.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I thought the virtual reality problems was a fascinating read, especially the part about it inducing nausea.

You can get that effect while watching Republican debates even without virtual reality.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


They should conduct it like a meeting of SEELE from Neon Genesis Evangelion, with Anderson Cooper glowering at the central desk while the candidates respond from their giant SOUND ONLY monoliths.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [26 favorites]


["God Bless the Child" sax solo starts playing]
BAGAWD THAT'S BILL CLINTON'S MUSIC! HILLARY TAGS HIM, AND NOW SLICK WILLIE IS IN THE DEBATE!
[Bill does Hulk Hogan ear cupping move]
posted by Rock Steady at 1:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [28 favorites]


Maybe Biden is plotting a dramatic "Max Headroom" broadcast signal intrusion.
posted by Sangermaine


I'll say now that, as with any debate, I will immediately pledge my vote and full support to any candidate who opens the debate with "Secretary Clinton, Senators Sanders, etc, WELCOME TO THE TERRORDOME."
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [18 favorites]


Can we replace the debate moderators with an animatronic Chuck E. Cheese/Billy Bob Bear/Wolf Blitzer? I promise no one will notice.
posted by downtohisturtles at 1:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Maybe CNN will dig the hologram projector out of the basement?
posted by cosmic.osmo at 1:34 PM on October 13, 2015


I assume that there's basically zero chance that this will be compatible with Google Cardboard, because this might be a fun reason to dust off the $10 headset kit I bought last year and played with once.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oculus Rift only, no Google Cardboard. The Democrats really are the party of the rich. Occupy 3D!
posted by miyabo at 1:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Looking forwards to lots of bullshit "both sides" coverage about how the debate is just as insane as the GOP one.
posted by Artw at 1:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Looking forwards to lots of bullshit "both sides" coverage about how the debate is just as insane as the GOP one.
That's crazy talk. Democrats actually feel slight guilt when they bomb hospitals. Republicans lease time on IBM's Watson system to determine when they should have expressed regret.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:37 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I keep hearing this, and have yet to find any details on actually participating. Neither of these article tell me how to watch it. I have an Occulus, but no idea where source stream source is going to be.

The Slate author makes a TON of assumptions about quality and how this is going to be captured. Anyone know if JauntVR is involved?
posted by butterstick at 1:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


The USA has officially become a circus. Political debates are now just entertainment spectacles and winners are decided not by their answers or policies, but by their personalities and gaffe-free performances.
It's a two year long MTV reality show where the winner gets to somberly address the nation after every school shooting for the next four years.
posted by rocket88 at 1:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [48 favorites]


Virtual candidates, eh? Is it too late to add Hatsune Miku to the debate?

I'm backing Rei Toei.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


So it's "how to watch if you have cable" and if you don't I assume you're screwed?
posted by desjardins at 1:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I want Biden to enter the race just because it would make the debates more fun and interesting.

Could we just get Jason Sudekis onstage impersonating Biden? That'd be almost as good.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


So it's "how to watch if you have cable" and if you don't I assume you're screwed?

Nope.

CNN plans to live stream the debate on CNN.com and its mobile apps for free without requiring any cable subscription login.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


They should conduct it like a meeting of SEELE from Neon Genesis Evangelion, with Anderson Cooper glowering at the central desk while the candidates respond from their giant SOUND ONLY monoliths.

The only problem with this is that Cooper is clearly Fuyutsuki.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


The USA has officially become a circus.

I just wish they'd throw us some bread every once in a while.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


If we're talking about dream candidates and possible holograms, I would like to nominate the Onion's Joe Biden.

(thanks showbiz_liz - I was also about to complain about how my cable is so shitty that I don't even get C-Span)
posted by giraffe at 1:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


>Virtual candidates, eh? Is it too late to add Hatsune Miku to the debate?

HOLOGRAPHIC TUPAC FOR PRESIDENT.

tupac/assata 2016
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Ok, so turns out this is GearVR only, being produced by NextVR and available solely through their GearVR app. No Oculus, no Cardboard.
posted by butterstick at 1:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is all going to be some boring stuff about real world issues and policies, isn't it? Who wants to watch that?
posted by octothorpe at 1:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


(you may be thinking, hey, shouldn't that ticket be the other way around? The trick is, when they win Assata will immediately become president, because, after all, Tupac is dead.)

the capital of the US will immediately be moved to Havana okay I'll stop now...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I actually can't bring myself to watch any of the debates at all, which is why I'm following this thread. All of the livetweeting, none of the staring directly into the abyss that is US politics.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm hoping the folks in chat will be discussing it.
posted by theora55 at 1:56 PM on October 13, 2015


Man, CNN never passes up an opportunity to use a drone, a hologram, or some other substance-free novelty. It's a perfect example of why I stopped paying any attention to them years ago.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I thought the virtual reality problems was a fascinating read, especially the part about it inducing nausea.

You can get that effect while watching Republican debates even without virtual reality.


THE NAUSEA IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE DEMOCRACY!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


or some other substance-free novelty

That's a really mean way to talk about Wolf Blitzer
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [36 favorites]


CNN ensures the presence of corporate tie-ins so that we don't forget BRANDING when considering politics.
posted by rhizome at 2:07 PM on October 13, 2015


Wolf hasn't been a novelty for a long time now, he has become merely banal.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]




substance-free novelty

I would frame these as "harmless novelties." As rating stunts go, they're a lot better than "Let's you and him fight" personal feud-bating and cooked up "controversies."
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]




I would love it if an axis of lefties went to town, "Survivor" style.
posted by rhizome at 2:12 PM on October 13, 2015


Emmanuel Goldstein, the tribe has spoken: You have been voted off the Island.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


An Undemocratic Party? Ahead of First Debate, Criticism Grows over DNC’s Move to Control Process

It's pretty frustrating what the DNC has done with the schedule. It's very much an effort to get as few people as possible to watch what few debates there are. It may help Hillary (people have a tendency to sour on her the more they see) but it's going to hurt them for the general to have so little visibility before the election really ramps up, imo. But besides that, just as a voter, I want to hear more from the people who want to run the country. We have an amazing amount of national challenges right now and a changing and evolving social fabric that needs to be discussed in a serious way.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Fifteen years almost to the day that I was ejected from a Presidential debate. Ah, memories.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, here is a drinking game.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am picturing something like when CNET tried to interview Anshe Chung... it'll be glorious!
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:38 PM on October 13, 2015


Product placement in presidential debates; how did it take until 2015 to get here?

[the gang is logged onto the internet in virtual reality]
Bender: Behold... the Internet!
Fry: My God! It's full of ads!

posted by Existential Dread at 2:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The USA has officially become a circus.

It's always been a circus.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yes, but no longer a big-time Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey production, now it's a Carnival Side-Show (and yet, with a bigger budget than ever). We need more Emmett Kelly-like clowns and less Pennywise cosplayers.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:53 PM on October 13, 2015


You know what the best thing for Biden to do would be? Troll CNN by showing up. To sit in the audience.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [27 favorites]


My girlfriend and I will be sharing a pitcher of beer while we watch.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


(thanks for the drinking games link, drinky die)
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Looking forwards to lots of bullshit "both sides" coverage about how the debate is just as insane as the GOP one.

All the pundit coverage I've seen is about how this debate is going to be *soooo boring* and how all Clinton and Sanders want to talk about boring issues like economic inequality, the rising cost of higher education, and our interminable war on terror. *YAWN*
posted by muddgirl at 3:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


(thanks for the drinking games link, drinky die)

I don't know if the author intended for it to be seriously played, but I like how it works in a lot of different (including non-alcoholic) drinks. A lot more creative than the usual, "If blah blah take a shot" lists and less likely to cause liver damage.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Here are the current odds for the 2016 Democrat Presidential Candidate.

Forty bucks on George Clooney to win ten thousand?! Take my money!!

not
posted by Wordshore at 3:03 PM on October 13, 2015


is it feasible to short candidates on these online election betting services?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:05 PM on October 13, 2015


CNN announced its forthcoming debate a zillion times daily for the past week. They pointed to chairs were people would sit etc...reached the point where I have lost interest in the debate and in CNN.

When there are two selected candidates, and about 3 weeks before the election, I will resume an interest...the rest of the time is filler for the cable channels, who seem uninterested in what takes place in the rest of the world
ps: Biden has become like Mario Cuomo, a Hamlet like figure, and his indecision has convinced me that he has not the guts or decisiveness for the job.
posted by Postroad at 3:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hey, everybody: Write in Jennifer Lawrence for president. Pass it on!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Just like Nixon/Kennedy... People who watched this on cable will think Hillary won while people who had the be feed will think the pterodactyl won.
posted by drezdn at 3:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


The total age of Biden, Clinton and Sanders, on election day next year, will be 217.
posted by Wordshore at 3:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Turns out.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:23 PM on October 13, 2015


It's pretty frustrating what the DNC has done with the schedule.

More like what the DNC chairperson, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, has done with the schedule. At least two of the DNC vice-chairs have called for more debates and the lifting of the exclusivity requirement. DWS has made it quite clear that the decision was hers and she's not changing it.
posted by SisterHavana at 3:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Wow, I was not aware of that. But in the end more like what Hillary is doing with the schedule. If she wanted more, DWS would make it happen.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:29 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of enthusiasm here. The Republican debates have been ludicrously entertaining for between 13 and 16 reasons, but this Democratic debate is (barring a horrible, horrible swing in the national mood) the first face-to-face comparison of the policy positions and temperaments of the candidates most likely to become the next POTUS. How is this being written off already?
posted by psoas at 3:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


it's probably the expectation that the aggressively mediocre CNN will make the debate as insulting to the intelligence and dignity of everyone involved as humanly possible.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [24 favorites]


How is this being written off already?

(1) Their positions are largely already out there and "How far can Bernie drag Hilary to the left?" is not compelling TV.
(2) Reasonable, polite debate is not nearly as entertaining as "Oh Jeebusgawd fer'fuck's sake what are they going to say next?"
(3) The nomination is still Hilary's to lose, barring a complete implosion or Bernie fever spreading outside the current Feel The Bern demo of white, college educated professionals under 35.
(4) No good drinking games.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Not to mention a national mood that doesn't have a lot of faith left in the political establishment or, indeed, American democracy.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Quite honestly, the few times I've bothered to look in on any debate, I was treated to candidates ignoring the question and launching into boilerplate stump speech out takes. They're pretty useless, and will continue to be so, until they become real debates, and the questioners make the candidates answer the fucking question. I'll be watching baseball. And iZombie.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


I find it pretty hard to get excited about debates at all anymore. It's always the same. Moderator asks about a topic. Candidate repeats back their prepared script that most closely touches on that subject. Maybe a few back and forths with people in disagreement but with no time to actually have a discussion on policy. What's the point of that?
posted by downtohisturtles at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Or what Thorzdad said.
posted by downtohisturtles at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Fifteen years almost to the day that I was ejected from a Presidential debate. Ah, memories."

Spill it.
posted by notsnot at 3:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Donald Trump will be live Tweeting.

Was speaking to one of Donald Trump's relatives the other week (he was a near-neighbor for several years) who is convinced that The Donald was born not in the USA, but in Scotland. Apparently it was common practice for women at the time, even when overseas, to return to their homeland home to give birth. Which would make The Donald a man of Eilean Leòdhais, not New York.

Has anyone actually seen Donald's birth certificate...?
posted by Wordshore at 3:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I wonder how much of CNN's format will be directly ripped off from Double Dare and Legends of the Hidden Temple?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh Jesus Christ....

Top two headlines on cnn's homepage:

Bernie Sanders: Raise taxes to fund pricey proposals

Taxing the rich won't solve inequality

The second story quotes a study from the Brookings Institution....fuck off cnn, seriously fuck off.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 3:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


I'm not sure I get the enthusiasm for Biden. He seems like a good guy but I don't think that his policies are all that different than Clinton's and he's almost as old as Sanders.
posted by octothorpe at 3:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"How far can Bernie drag Hillary to the left" is actually pretty interesting to some of us. This is probably our best chance for pinning Clinton down on a few campaign promises she can't back out of once in office. TPP, for instance -- she's vaguely against it now, but if Sanders and O'Malley can push her into taking a stronger stand without any wiggle-room, that will have real-world impact. And similarly for almost any issue that will get raised here -- on almost everything, I think Clinton would like to be to the right of what she has to espouse for the primary, so the more things we get her pinned down on now, the better. Campaign promises do matter, especially if made to specific constituencies, and these few debates are one of the only real places we can force unwilling ones, mostly just by raising the issue at all. I don't have great faith in CNN to even attempt that, but such surprises do sometimes emerge either through candidate initiative or via some other candidate egging them into it. So even if you're not interested in the debate as a candidate-decision mechanism and think CNN is a farce, important things can still happen -- at least for those who care about policy details.
posted by chortly at 3:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


It's not really that I lack faith in these candidates. I can respect Bernie's positions and Hillary's leadership...but none of that really matters with Congress being stuck in dysfunction mode. None of this cool stuff they are talking about is going to happen. This election, even more than most, for most of the Metafilter audience at least is going to come down to voting for whoever the Democrat is so they can nominate Supreme Court justices and do the minimal amount of stuff a President can do without congressional approval.

The interesting viewing for me as someone who pretty much just watches politics like I watch sports at this point is to see if any of the "other three" can gain some traction. They have been pretty much invisible so far in this campaign and this is probably their only shot to start making some headway.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wonder how much of CNN's format will be directly ripped off from Double Dare and Legends of the Hidden Temple?

I think Bernie's best hope is for Hillary to get stuck in the Shrine of the Silver Monkey.

(stupid monkey...)
posted by tocts at 4:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm not sure I get the enthusiasm for Biden. He seems like a good guy but I don't think that his policies are all that different than Clinton's and he's almost as old as Sanders.

Yeah, he's just a Clinton alternative for people who don't like Clinton. There are a lot of reasons people don't like her, some completely illegitimate (sexism) and some at least a bit legitimate (dislike of political dynasty) so an alternative has some built in numbers in the polls. Biden ran a bunch of times before though and didn't do so great, no reason to necessarily expect he would do much better this time if he actually ran.

I just want him to be VP again. Who better?
posted by Drinky Die at 4:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure I get the enthusiasm for Biden

three reasons:
  • The character Leslie Knope on the television show Parks and Recreation had a crush on him.
  • The Onion and the late night talk shows frequently reference a completely fictional version of him that makes him seem like everyone's crazy but fun uncle.
  • The Clinton camp made it quietly known very early in the cycle that any mainstream consulting firm that worked with any Democratic Party candidate other than Clinton would never get business from the Democratic Party ever again. Biden is seen as the only mainstream Democrat with enough real power in DC to get well-connected political consulting firms to work with him despite the embargo.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


I'm interested to see if CNN's live streaming works this time. During the last Republican debate(s) the streaming worked perfectly during the B team's at bat but fizzled out at the one hour mark of the A team's three hour debate.

I don't have high hopes for an interesting debate but I'm watching out of curiosity. I couldn't pick Webb, O'Malley or Chafee out of a line-up.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on October 13, 2015


Who better?

Elizabeth Warren. Actually, she should also be president.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'd rather wait until she's done kicking ass and being not-president.
posted by rhizome at 4:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


And frankly, I like her better as a first female president overall. I mean, the first woman president is going to be a Democrat, but Hillary simply isn't my kind of Democrat.
posted by rhizome at 4:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Warren is way more effective as a senator than she would be as VP.
posted by octothorpe at 4:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Agreed - but Hillary would be way more effective with Warren as her VP.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


...he said, hopefully.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:14 PM on October 13, 2015


Biden is actually much, much more of a corporate shill than people remember from his time in Congress. He was a key supporter of the Clinton banking* deregulation, the 2005 Bankruptcy reform, and a "tough on crime" and unabashedly antiabortion centrist Democrat.

That is not remotely a winning formula in this Primary. His voting record is comparable to Chris Dodd or Joe Liberman, and would be a massive drag on his campaign without any real recent examples to balance it out, let's face it, the VP doesn't get much opportunity to go on record. There's no real constituency for Biden at all, which is probably why he's not in the race, no matter how hard Chuck Todd and Luke Russert want him in.

* - I wrote "baking deregulation", which is something else entirely.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Warren would also work as a VP for Sanders — she'd be a good backup if Sanders got the Paul Wellstone treatment.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


In an era when Donald Trump is taken seriously, Biden would have no problem running on Obama's record instead of his own. This media isn't gonna stop him.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]




OK, I need technical assistance. I am trying to get set up, but I see nothing on cnn.com other than a go.cnn something that needs you to have a cable account. Halp?
posted by Stewriffic at 4:22 PM on October 13, 2015


Story I read says the link will be on the home page. It's probably just not up now because the debate isn't for an hour.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:25 PM on October 13, 2015


I was wondering if that were the case. I'm so used to broadcasts beginning before they actually begin.
posted by Stewriffic at 4:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like Biden, but I still wish Gore had been willing to run this time around. Anyway, I'm starting to feel like Bernie isn't such a long shot after all.
posted by uosuaq at 4:26 PM on October 13, 2015


The Clinton camp made it quietly known very early in the cycle that any mainstream consulting firm that worked with any Democratic Party candidate other than Clinton would never get business from the Democratic Party ever again.

Is this common knowledge? I've never heard it. (I'm not at all questioning you, just surprised I haven't heard it and am wondering how widespread it is)
posted by triggerfinger at 4:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Five Foreign Policy Questions For the Democratic Candidates distilled:
    What to do about possibly screwed-with intel assessments?
    How does US plan on working with international institutions: NATO, UN, ICC?
    War in Yemen: bad idea, or worst idea? BONUS: How much do you want to piss off the Saudis?
    Is there a plan for the US to not be on a permanent military footing?
    Can we /should we maintain hegemonic position vis-a-vis China? ALSO: Thucydides or Herodotus?
More Foreign Policy Questions That Should Be Asked, But Won’t Be
    What about Tunisia? Can we make that happen again?
    Continue war on ISIS Y/N?
    NATO expansion Y/N?
    Iran normalization plans?
    FOR CLINTON:
    No-fly zone in Syria? Seriously? No, seriously?
    FOR SANDERS:
    Given the Saudis are currently fucking up Yemen, why do you want them to also fuck up the Levant (more than they already are)?
    FOR O’MALLEY:
    What would you have done better in Libya?
    FOR WEBB:
    How can you reject the Iran deal and still call yourself a Democrat?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]




The Clinton camp made it quietly known very early in the cycle that any mainstream consulting firm that worked with any Democratic Party candidate other than Clinton would never get business from the Democratic Party ever again.

That will change really quickly if the other Dem candidate gets the nom or makes the race close. Nothing succeeds like success.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


There are a lot of reasons people don't like her, some completely illegitimate and some at least a bit legitimate

when you don't agree with Drinky Die the question isn't whether you are wrong or right, but the degree to which you are wrong.
posted by andrewcooke at 4:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Absolutely correct.

(Seriously though, I'm in the don't like political dynasty camp.)
posted by Drinky Die at 4:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Poll: Do You Know Who This Man Is?
posted by Drinky Die at 4:37 PM on October 13, 2015


Is this common knowledge? I've never heard it. (I'm not at all questioning you, just surprised I haven't heard it and am wondering how widespread it is)

This was the policy of Jeb Bush's team, at least up until the time Trump showed up. There was a NYTimes piece on this a few months ago. Wouldn't be surprised if they are now a bit more contrite and cooperative.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:37 PM on October 13, 2015


I don't have cable, so no login. Anybody have a link for the live stream?
posted by theora55 at 4:38 PM on October 13, 2015


There will be a free stream on the CNN homepage.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:40 PM on October 13, 2015


Biden still has time to attend as a hologram.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:44 PM on October 13, 2015


There will be a free stream on the CNN homepage.

If the stream is yellow, that's just buffering from the Internet drinking game.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


The sign of a healthy democracy is the ability to watch presidential candidates debate each other if you have cable or broadband internet.
posted by uosuaq at 4:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


It's not there now, so I'll have to be patient.
posted by theora55 at 4:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Hilary would not be a perfect choice for president, I get the political dynasty dislike, but having a woman president, even a less-than-perfect one, would mean a hell of a lot to us Uterus Americans. And the way I look at it, Clinton would merely be the first, not the only, woman president. Later ones could and hopefully would be better.

I would vote for Sanders if he gets it though, absolutely. I just hope the many dudes online expressing their discomfort with Hilary and enthusiasm for Biden or Sanders would do the same, because there is a shitload at stake that goes way beyond whatever personal dislike they have for her. If white "progressive" men stay home instead of voting for her, they're going to have a hell of a lot more to worry about than "oh noes another Clinton in office."
posted by emjaybee at 4:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [21 favorites]


The sign of a healthy democracy is the ability to watch presidential candidates debate each other if you have cable or broadband internet.

Or, you know, radio. Which is completely free and available universally.

I'm not sure what else you want them to do. Broadcast it directly into our brains?
posted by Justinian at 4:48 PM on October 13, 2015


(Seriously though, I'm in the don't like political dynasty camp.)

I feel like a dynasty takes more than two people, both of whom were interested in politics well before they even met. If Chelsea Clinton were running for president instead, I would feel differently, but she's not.
posted by muddgirl at 4:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm not sure what else you want them to do. Broadcast it directly into our brains?

Modified Ludaviko Technique?
posted by daq at 4:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


...even a less-than-perfect one, would mean a hell of a lot to us Uterus Americans.

If white "progressive" men stay home instead of voting for her, they're going to have a hell of a lot more to worry about than "oh noes another Clinton in office."


Personally, I would vote for an actual disembodied uterus if it was on the ballot in opposition to the Republican candidate.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


I would love to see Biden jump in long enough to do a couple debates...because he makes me laugh my fucking head off with his ability to be plain spoken, funny, and occasionally brutally honest. Even if he just stood on stage to call bullshit on other candidates - that would be great.

Right now I'm all about Bernie. I just do not care for Hillary Clinton's record.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 4:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Spill it.

For an undergrad class project, three other students and myself were making a documentary on an oddball political activist, whose main schtick was to carry signs carefully calculated to piss off earnest lefty academic types. These signs said things like "Hunt the Whales" and "Pave the Rainforest." Not a lot of considered opinion or policy nuance.

This was the election year 2000. There was a Bush-Gore debate in a nearby city, and all of us undergrads thought that it would be great to shlep our subject to the debate site with his signs and have him try his luck there. So we get there, dude takes his signs out, and he stands around holding them in various picturesque places on the Wake Forest campus. Basically we're seeing just how long it will take us to get thrown out.

It took a very long time! And as anyone who has watched TV coverage of American political party conventions, our subject was not even close to the weirdest guy there. There were too many of North Carolina's movers and shakers wearing ridiculous outfits, and too many earnest Young [Party] leaders shepherding college political types into their assigned seats. "You're going to be chanting 'Students for Gore' as you enter the Coliseum!" screamed the head of the UNC Young Democrats over and over again, as khakied and sleeveless-dress wearing students moved as quickly as they could through the entranceway. There were near-identical smiling pale faces with shiny white teeth everywhere, with only Bush or Gore lapel pins or stickers to differentiate. We got amazing footage. It was surreal.

Anyway, eventually security (nice suits, but probably not Secret Service) figured out the five men and women who weren't dressed up or wearing red, white and blue weren't supposed to be at the debate. We were all invited to leave the Coliseum grounds and move to the "designated free speech zone," which was not visible from the grounds. We elected to drive back to the Triangle instead. Too bad, because from news reports that particular free speech zone was a fucking zoo.

But we'd already seen the real circus.
posted by infinitewindow at 5:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Write in Jennifer Lawrence for president.

hey, we'll only have to pay her 77% as much as the bern!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Can we all at least agree that 'Feel The Bern' is really annoying?
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


We were all invited to leave the Coliseum grounds and move to the "designated free speech zone," which was not visible from the grounds.

While I'm not happy with this phenomenon (ie: unconstitutional squelching of protected political speech), as long as were having tiny little areas out of the sight of everyone that are '1st amendment zones', why for heavens sake can't we also have little patches of grass out in the middle nowhere that are 'designated 2nd amendment zones'?

/derail
posted by el io at 5:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


Sadly, Jennifer Lawrence is Constitutionally ineligible for the office of President.
posted by Justinian at 5:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Is this common knowledge? I've never heard it. (I'm not at all questioning you, just surprised I haven't heard it and am wondering how widespread it is)
posted by triggerfinger at 4:27 PM on October 13 [1 favorite +] [!


No, it's perfectly fair to question me — I'm an overtly crazy East Bay socialist who idolizes Assata Shakur, who still thinks that Paul Wellstone was murdered, and who frequently proposes on this very site that we should all have massive freaky orgies involving omnigendered sex robots.

That said, though: My sources on this are people in west coast (mainstream-Democratic) political consulting who know people in D.C., rather than anyone in D.C. itself. I started hearing these rumors back before Sanders was in the race in earnest, when Clinton inevitability and the Draft Warren movement were both at their peak. They were always in the context of "and that's why Warren's not going to run," and they always came with the caveat "well okay maybe Biden could get in, but he's not going to run anyway."

Probably there are people here who are closer to actual D.C. politics and who are better positioned to say whether or not Clinton was throwing her weight around in this particular manner, but they're way less likely to run their mouths in public fora than I am.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


CNN has gone live.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


While I'm not happy with this phenomenon (ie: unconstitutional squelching of protected political speech), as long as were having tiny little areas out of the sight of everyone that are '1st amendment zones', why for heavens sake can't we also have little patches of grass out in the middle nowhere that are 'designated 2nd amendment zones'?

And to continue the derail, why can't Planned Parenthood set up free speech zones a mile away for people who want to protest them?
posted by Drinky Die at 5:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Can we all at least agree that 'Feel The Bern' is really annoying?

Well, no, but I'd like to see a "Bernie Nation" T-shirt with that "burnination" cartoon dragon on it. However, I lack the graphic design skills and the reference is obscure enough that it's a bit over my own head.
posted by uosuaq at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [22 favorites]


I like the "Bernie to the future" posters with him as Doc from Back to the Future, but I'm afraid kids these days might be more familiar with Rick and Morty than Doc and Marty, and as such have the idea that Bernie is a dimension-hopping sociopath.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Feel the Bern" doesn't appeal to me, but it doesn't have to since I like him already.
posted by rhizome at 5:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


For people who are unable to stream via CNN GO, you can view the debate here as well.
posted by Fizz at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The pre-game show people are politely steering clear of policy questions and treating this as a personality contest. That's the kind of classy political commentary that makes me proud to live in Panem.
posted by uosuaq at 5:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


If you want to listen on the radio, Westwood One has an exclusive deal to carry the debate live. Here is a page listing the affiliates that will be carrying it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Endless Shrimp". Hmm. I know it's a Red Lobster commercial, but I think it's a campaign slogan left on the table.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


That commercial for the F-35 belongs in a Paul Verhoven movie.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Why isn't Fox News also running the Democratic debate? If this is supposed to be entertainment, might as well put them into the ring of fire.
posted by yueliang at 5:35 PM on October 13, 2015


Fizz' link is nice--this weather and financial info is so much more relaxing than commercials. 'San Pedro Sula'... I bet it's nice there this time of year.
posted by box at 5:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, I forgot that TV advertisements are the weirdest things ever. A train cargo company (which I have already forgotten the name of) and Lockheed Martin? That's...interesting.
posted by kalimac at 5:35 PM on October 13, 2015


I dunno if everyone's seeing the same advertisements on the stream but I just saw an ad for the fuckin' F-35? I very rarely see television advertisements, is this regular now?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:36 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh God, the melodramatic framing of the CNN intro is awful.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


This seriously feels like The Hunger Games.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I love that the CNN Debate has a commercial for the CNN Debate that airs right before the actual CNN Debate.
posted by Fizz at 5:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I love that the CNN Debate has a commercial for the CNN Debate that airs right before the actual CNN Debate.

yo, dawg...
posted by daq at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


Say what you will about the Democrats, they can get the good musicians
posted by Countess Elena at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think I'll vote for Crow.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


This seriously feels like The Hunger Games.

Why isn't there a way for us, the audience, to pay money and send the candidates little parcels full of snacks or ointment or whatever?
posted by aubilenon at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [31 favorites]


Flawless HTML5 videos and no commercials. I want to believe CNN is testing a hook for ad-averse younger generations but it's probably more like making a large-scale stress-test of the new CNNgo infrastructure a tax deductible public service.
posted by adamsc at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2015


Is this a baseball game? Why are we singing the national anthem?
posted by Justinian at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015


This looks like a sunday night football promo.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Wait, we do the national anthem before debates now? Is this a new thing?
posted by triggerfinger at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think Bernie got more shrieking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Holy shit, I forgot that TV advertisements are the weirdest things ever. A train cargo company (which I have already forgotten the name of) and Lockheed Martin? That's...interesting.
posted by kalimac at 5:35 PM on October 13 [+] [!]


It's seen as unseemly when major corporations just straight up pay media outlets for positive coverage, so typically they buy advertisements instead.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015


damn, she stuck the landing. real chills, I don't mind saying.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think they included the national anthem because they've made it so easy to forget what country this is anymore.
posted by uosuaq at 5:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sheryl Crow's been taking singing lessons.
posted by gentian at 5:43 PM on October 13, 2015


I noticed a crack in her voice on that last note, actually.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


The US anthem. God dammit. Even Crow is struggling with that high F.
posted by Talez at 5:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Is this a baseball game? Why are we singing the national anthem?

Because Fox did. You just watch, in 2019 we'll be slaying the fatted calf.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [21 favorites]


I could never run for President simply because I could not stand on stage with my hand over my heart looking thoughtful and patriotic while someone sang the National anthem. (Bit squeaky there, Cheryl.)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015


(b/c, yanno, THAT is important.) Sheesh, stew.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015


Need an excuse for an extra commercial break.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015


Flawless HTML5 videos

Not so much. It keeps stopping and reloading for me. I think it's overloaded.

I may have tuned into the wrong broadcast, though. Is there some kind of WWF throwdown happening on CNN before the debate? I guess I got the time zones mixed up.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


So far, all this has made me feel is incredibly nostalgic for Jim Leher.
posted by missmobtown at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015


Was it? I thought that was an audio cutout for me. Oh well. Still nice work.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


BOVESPA? Xetra Dax? Are those real things?
posted by box at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Yeah. I've had the live steam stop and restart three times now. Cooper keeps getting to how we're seconds away from introducing the candidates and then it chokes.
posted by olinerd at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


So we don't get to watch the commercials streaming? I feel ripped off.
posted by octothorpe at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I noticed a crack in her voice on that last note, actually.

I just mean she's improved since the "Soak Up The Sun" song.
posted by gentian at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2015


Hey, Brazil and Germany.
posted by box at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2015


I keep seeing ads for the film SUFFRAGETTE. I guess they know their audience.
posted by Justinian at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2015


Ditto here. Somewhere there's a room full of engineers swearing up a storm right now.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


i don't know if this is because i am not in the usa, but i can't find a link to the live stream at cnn.com. can someone post the url here, please? thanks.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:47 PM on October 13, 2015


Is this streaming anywhere that non-Americans can watch it? CNN doesn't work.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 5:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 17s18 seconds ago
Get rid of all of these commercials. #DemDebate


He's right as usual.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


We need the standard Stupid Pet Tricks disclaimer. "This is only an exhibition. This is not a competition. Please, no wagering."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:48 PM on October 13, 2015


I swear I just saw Mellie Grant in the audience.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:48 PM on October 13, 2015


Chafee has been speaking for 15 seconds and I'm already asleep.
posted by Justinian at 5:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]




I hope Bernie and Hillary arm wrestle or play a vicious couple rounds of rock, paper, scissors.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:48 PM on October 13, 2015


Non-US people--give this one a try (thanks, Fizz).
posted by box at 5:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Next.
posted by buzzman at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Frank Perdue.
posted by gentian at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015


Gong.
posted by gentian at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015


On my iPad the CNN app had frozen twice and all out crashed three times, and the debate hasn't even started yet. Not good.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015


"I have had no scandals"

OY
posted by Stewriffic at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Not ready for prime time.
posted by gentian at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015


CNN go is playing flawlessly (for once) on my tablet. Usually I can't get it to work on my tablet and have to use my phone.

Hey! Chafee has been a Mayor!!! (That is Chafee, right?)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015


Seriously. OMG. SNORE.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Man, this is a whole lot of buzzwords so far.
posted by MsVader at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015


No complaints yet for me on the stream. I have crap internet and this is actually way better so far than YouTube.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015


Chafee did pretty well imo. *shrug*
posted by Drinky Die at 5:50 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm looking for a leader who understands how to effectively use hand gestures, Webb. Which means you're out. HOLY CRAP. I expect jazz hands from this guy soon.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


escape from the potato planet: sorry to hear you're having problems — Twitter confirms you're not alone. We're seeing great quality on RCN, which makes me wonder whether CNN hasn't paid Danegeld to Comcast, et al., and now hoping that network neutrality shows up as a topic.
posted by adamsc at 5:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


thanks, so you're saying - seems not to work. :(
posted by andrewcooke at 5:51 PM on October 13, 2015


Webb: Not quite as boring as Chafee but still pretty boring!

His chief of staff is free to use that if they want. No charge.
posted by Justinian at 5:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wow, Webb is no public speaker. His head wobbles too much and he talks down into his chest.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on October 13, 2015


Poor Julia!
posted by JDHarper at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2015


IMO, the Best Bernie Meme
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Webb bled for his country. Thanks, Webb.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, yeah, that gesture game is garbage.
posted by box at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2015


That is more good background on Webb than one would have imagined.
posted by buzzman at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015


Smarmy dude is smarmy.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015


Webb doesn't look silly, at least. That's refreshing.
posted by gentian at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015


Drop more of those "g"s, Webb, makes you sound more down home.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015


The stream is working for me now. I give up—if I'm gonna watch this, I need a drink. The only thing in the house is bottom-shelf absinthe, though.

Bottom-shelf absinthe it is.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I know where my loyalties are." What does that mean?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh man, O'Malley missed his calling as a used car salesman.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


O'Malley sounds like he's trying to channel Mr. Rogers. It's his cadence or something.
posted by Stewriffic at 5:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


My wife and I have 3 great kids and one mediocre kid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


The lack of blinking is creepy. Do they practice that?
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Webb: Not quite as boring as Chafee but still pretty boring!

He's running for Sec. of Defense anyways.
posted by Panjandrum at 5:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


O'Malley could be a dark horse here. Maybe.
posted by gentian at 5:54 PM on October 13, 2015


I wish Biden were here and was like "Jesus Christ that was boring as hell."
posted by Justinian at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


O'Malley looks a little too much like Boehner for my comfort.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2015


The lack of blinking is creepy. Do they practice that?

Nah, lizard people just don't blink.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


No one does cadence like Bernie.
posted by missmobtown at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2015


Webb: Not quite as boring as Chafee but still pretty boring!

He's running for Sec. of Defense anyways.


Or Vice President.
posted by homunculus at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm kinda happy Bernie didn't button up his jacket.
posted by numaner at 5:56 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie is the only one with fire at the moment. The rest are like timid little rabbits.
posted by Talez at 5:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I thought O'Malley was gonna pick my pocket. And if I wasn't already going to vote for Bernie, I would for that accent alone....
posted by kalimac at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


What is Bernie wearing on his lapel? Doesn't look like a flag pin.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bernie is the only one with fire at the moment. The rest are like timid little rabbits.

Yeah, they looked like me in 10th grade English class when I had to recite memorized Shakespeare. This is not a compliment.
posted by Justinian at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bernie!!!!!
posted by asra at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


My flatscreen is killing the seals! OMG the icecaps are melting!
posted by buzzman at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie is bringing up race and mass incarceration right out of the bat. I like that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


haha, you don't usually hear a "maybe just maybe" in opening remarks.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


Are they reading their opening statements off a teleprompter?
posted by fuse theorem at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


ooo I felt that Bern
posted by numaner at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bernie doing well, but it's kind of stump speechy. Will see if he can sustain the energy.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie's kind of shouty.
posted by octothorpe at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2015


Hill, back off the fakey happy shit.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


oh thanks for reminding us again about your grandchild, Hillary
posted by numaner at 5:58 PM on October 13, 2015


BERNIE SHOULD BE MORE SHOUTY, DAMMIT.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


god given?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 5:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hillary definitely wins at "Looking and Sounding Presidential."
posted by Drinky Die at 5:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ugh, Hillary after Bernie just comes across smug and full of herself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015


I guess Clinton's "I'm the granddaughter of a factory worker" plays better than "I'm the daughter of a rich capitalist".
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I came into this late, only catching Bernie and Hillary, did the other 3 mention science?
posted by numaner at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie Sanders: Vampire Hunter.
posted by buzzman at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Dress for the job you want.
posted by rhizome at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


That audience member had glorious hair and beard.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


NON USA LINK - LONG LIVE FOX!

http://fox2now.com/2015/10/13/watch-live-video-of-the-cnn-2016-democratic-debate-online/
posted by andrewcooke at 6:00 PM on October 13, 2015


I came into this late, only catching Bernie and Hillary, did the other 3 mention science?

Nobody remembers, they were too busy nodding off.
posted by Justinian at 6:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


ok I have to admit that line about fathers to daughters was pretty good
posted by numaner at 6:00 PM on October 13, 2015


Coopers first question: Hilary, are you a slimy liar?
posted by Justinian at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"yes, finally" vs "maybe, just maybe". Hard work ahead of us!
posted by chortly at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie has the most to prove, he's got to do some molecular gastronomy politics with some foam and shit. Hillary just needs to bang out a braised pork belly and hope everyone else fucks up.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [29 favorites]


Hillary just played the "vote for me to break the glass ceiling" card pretty shamelessly. Would rather see her campaign on her own merits.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


makes me wonder whether CNN hasn't paid Danegeld to Comcast
Wait until the NBC (a division of Comcast) debates: Republican October 28 and February 26, and Democratic January 17. Comcast should have all the pipes open for those.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015


daaaaaamn Cooper
posted by numaner at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015


Hillary needs to take some lessons from Bill on how to dampen down the smug.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Honestly she is coming across as too polished, too rehearsed. Bernie sounds like he means what he is saying but she sounds like she just has a speech she wants to give so that she can get elected.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


First question from CNN: "Secretary Clinton, you've flip flopped more than *throws hail of ninja knives*"
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


It was a good line BUT it sounded exactly like a line and not much like honest thought went into it.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2015


keep in mind for people new to O'Malley that his career was the model for Mayor Carcetti's in The Wire. Also note that Carcetti was played in The Wire by Aidan Gillen, who currently plays Lord Baelish on Game of Thrones.

tl;dr: a vote for O'Malley is a vote for Littlefinger.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [42 favorites]


I think Clinton's answer is much better and much less smuggy than her opening statement. "I'm a progressive but I'm a progressive who likes to get things done" is a great line.
posted by Justinian at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"A progressive that likes to get things done." Um.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015


from the books, I've been cheering for Littlefinger
posted by numaner at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hillary just played the "vote for me to break the glass ceiling" card pretty shamelessly. Would rather see her campaign on her own merits.

Seeing the stupid shit that Presidents 1-44 have done, I'm thinking that maybe not being a dude is a merit in and of itself.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Hillary is not really doing herself any favors here.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015


So what you're saying is that we're all going to end up voting for O'Malley but not realizing it at the time?
posted by Panjandrum at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


See, that's interesting. Maybe I just don't like Hillary.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:03 PM on October 13, 2015


that old guy keeps forgetting what he's saying.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:04 PM on October 13, 2015


I wonder what they do think about Sanders in Denmark and Norway. (I assume they follow these things, because the US President is such an enormous figure on the world stage.)
posted by Countess Elena at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2015


Huh, I guess that I've never actually heard Sanders speak before. His style takes some getting used to.
posted by octothorpe at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm still hoping for a Bernie/Warren ticket, and then Bernie retires after reelection and Warren is our first female president.
posted by numaner at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I do believe her greatest strength is as a statesman-- she does know how to get things done. Bernie? I'm not sure he knows the ropes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


wow he's really asking for labels.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2015


"I'm not saying you're a pinko Commie, Senator, but ... "
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Bernie badger don't give a shit.
posted by uosuaq at 6:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


uh oh, she's playing the small business card, which is a pretty usual GOP talking point.
posted by numaner at 6:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


do you have anyone who doesn't identify as middle class?
posted by andrewcooke at 6:06 PM on October 13, 2015


Screw you, Denmark!
posted by Drinky Die at 6:06 PM on October 13, 2015


he's shooting the moon on the "socialist" thing. I can't help admiring it.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Too bad there is no way to make a Trump:Sanders combo clone. :(
posted by buzzman at 6:07 PM on October 13, 2015


Cooper already ignoring the other three. CNN's subtlety knows no bounds

ok nvm Chafee's up
posted by numaner at 6:07 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh boy, the other three aren't even going to get a look in.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"A block of granite. GRANITE. Feel these abs, Cooper!"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Hilary's just not coming across as someone I want to have a beer with, y'know?
posted by bgal81 at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Every time one of the three also rans speak it is going to completely disrupt and bring to a screeching halt the interesting and important debate between Clinton and Sanders.

The whole flow just stopped the second Chafee started speaking.
posted by Justinian at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


That's not a presidential tie, Linc.
posted by box at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Soft granite?" WTF?
posted by homunculus at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015


Does Denmark know that CNN thinks they're actually North Korea?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I like Linc actually, but goddamn was that an insane serious of facial expressions
posted by likeatoaster at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2015


Eww you have the stink of Republicanism on you. Go take a bath, Chafee.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh my God, Chafee is Colin Mochrie, right? In character?

Nah, Mochrie would be way better.
posted by kalimac at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


YOU MADE THE WIRE, O'MALLEY, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO THAT?
posted by numaner at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'll vote for Bernie if he gets the nomination, but his shtick is getting pretty predictable and one-note. We get it, Bern—the 1% suck, and you have a litany of statistics to prove it, and you're going to keep saying it as long as people keep putting microphones in front of you. I don't disagree, but I want to hear about some other things.

At any rate, his presence does seem to be pulling the debate to the economic left. Would Clinton be saying the things she's saying if Sanders weren't right behind her in the polls?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Hilary's just not coming across as someone I want to have a beer with, y'know?

I disagree, I think she is coming off great. Of course, I would have a beer with anybody.

Cooper interrupting Chafee like that was stupid.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015


I hope Sanders keeps hammering that last point, especially in contrast with Bush's pledge to deliver 4% growth. What's the point of economic growth if all the fruits of that growth go straight to the very top?
posted by Rhaomi at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh, O'Malley is speaking now. I bet he has something very inter... *slumps forward over keyboard unconscious*.
posted by Justinian at 6:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


I like that Bernie did not walk back from being a socialist (of any sort) but instead laid out the fact that a higher turnout=a dem win.
posted by asra at 6:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


that's O'Malley's "I'm trying not to cry face" face
posted by numaner at 6:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I disagree, I think she is coming off great. Of course, I would have a beer with anybody.

I was being sarcastic. A drunk Hillary would be hillaryous.
posted by bgal81 at 6:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Webb, shouldn't you be a republican?"
posted by numaner at 6:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


'Quote 'of color'.'
posted by box at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015


O'Malley's voice: 95% of the time, it's Bill Clinton. 5% of the time: Kermit the Frog.
posted by 23skidoo at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


This is why I don't use Twitter. I couldn't refrain from snarking about these guys every 30 seconds.
posted by Justinian at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015


O'Malley's voice is too soft. And he talks too slowly. Hard to believe that he ever got elected to anything. His voice reminds me of someone from Deadwood but I can't remember who.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015


Srsly, plus Webb has a Teddy Roosevelt hair style.
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015


"Don't forget white people!"
posted by Stewriffic at 6:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


FUCK. JAMES. WEBB.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Why is Cooper interrupting everyone? It's distracting.
posted by jilloftrades at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Shockingly CNN refusing to ask anything of substance, all candidates so far seem to be doing a decent job pivoting away from CNNs idiotic horse race process oriented bullshit and getting in policy points.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


lol was that a facebook plug?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2015


hahaha Bernie just referred to himself in 3rd person! that's some Trump shit right there
posted by numaner at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2015


Why is Cooper interrupting everyone? It's distracting.

He realized that every minute Sanders or Clinton aren't speaking they lose 2% of their audience.
posted by Justinian at 6:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hillary is stronger on gun control.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:15 PM on October 13, 2015


It's sobering to compare this with the GOP debates: ignoring the positions, every single contender tonight is acting more presidential. It's sad that this doesn't matter.
posted by adamsc at 6:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


tl;dr: a vote for O'Malley is a vote for Littlefinger.

Well now I'm just mad. He did a very bad thing marrying Sansa off to that monster. And now he wants to be president?
posted by fuse theorem at 6:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Bernie has a very nuanced way of saying STFU.
posted by buzzman at 6:15 PM on October 13, 2015


That and every time the topic looks like it could touch on actual policy he's under strict orders to shut that shit down and get back to the main issues of personal infighting.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015


Cooper really wants Clinton and Sanders to fight.
posted by homunculus at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015


O'Malley just raised his hand to get Cooper's attention. Think Cooper will give him any attention. No. He went to Clinton.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015


Clinton just declared war on the NRA. She's not doing this as though she's the Anointed One, seems to me--she's actually staking out real positions.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Bernie disapproving of shouting!
posted by numaner at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've started wondering if Obama's speech about how we must start being single-issue voters on Gun Control if we want to end the scourge of mass killings was a subtle and extremely politically sly way of endorsing Clinton over Sanders.
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Re: Martin O'Malley and Deadwood, is it the guy who owned the hardware store?
posted by carmicha at 6:17 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm not a fan of her politics, but I've got srs respect for Clinton's skill at debating.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


tl;dr: a vote for O'Malley is a vote for Littlefinger.

Well now I'm just mad. He did a very bad thing marrying Sansa off to that monster.


NOT. CANON. SHE'S. STILL. IN. THE. VALE.
posted by numaner at 6:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Did Sanders actually criticize Clinton for shouting? Really Bernie, really?
posted by lydhre at 6:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


What's the over-under on when Anderson just starts flat-out ignoring the other three?
posted by kalimac at 6:18 PM on October 13, 2015


I hate guns. I wish we could collect all of them and melt them down but I think Bernie is more in line with what the majority wants-- keeping guns out of the hands of violent felons and the mentally unstable while allowing for responsible ownership.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I just watched a bunch in VR, Samsung Gear, Galaxy Note 4. The cameras were (understandably) pretty far away from the candidates, so everyone's face is just a blurry pink blob. And the phone overheated after 25 minutes and auto shut off. I'm sitting right in front of the AC. Oh well.
posted by SmileyChewtrain at 6:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Cooper: Jim Webb, are you a crazy gun nut?
posted by Justinian at 6:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


O'Malley's definitely a lizard person.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


hahahahaha Hillary laughing off O'Malley from Bernie's "You haven't dealt with Congress!"
posted by numaner at 6:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


oh snap! Webb just told Cooper off!
posted by numaner at 6:20 PM on October 13, 2015



Re: Martin O'Malley and Deadwood, is it the guy who owned the hardware store?

The one who owned the inn: E.B. Farnum
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


governor of Rhode Island is like Mayor of LA.
posted by nushustu at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Chafee isn't stupid enough to actually think there can be common ground with the gun lobby, is he? He's just saying that to look moderate?
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hillary gets points for declaring war on the NRA. However, I think Bernie's ideas are probably closer to the majority and whether anyone on that stage likes it or not - the rural thing does comes into play if you've ever looked at a friggin' map of the country.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Oh hey Jim Webb nice job pulling hard right on guns and taking the heat off of Bernie's gun positions right when he was backed into a corner on it.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


Common ground with the NRA?
posted by octothorpe at 6:22 PM on October 13, 2015


I would bring in the gun lobby and say, c'mon guys. Please? Pleeeeeeease? Cooooome onnnnn.
posted by Drastic at 6:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the VR report, SmileyChewtrain, I was wondering how it was going.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


oh poor lincoln chafee. if you hadn't been cursed with a politically prominent last name, you'd probably be the nicest, sweetest, kindest farrier in all Montana.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Mayor of LA.?
More like Mayor of San Diego
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Here's an article from the UCC shooting thread about Lonnie and Sandy Phillips: We Lost Our Daughter to a Mass Shooter and Now Owe $203,000 to His Ammo Dealer
posted by homunculus at 6:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


The nice thing about saying 'bullying' is that for a split second you think she's going to say 'bullshit.'
posted by box at 6:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Chafee isn't stupid enough to actually think there can be common ground with the gun lobby, is he? He's just saying that to look moderate?

Pretty much, yeah. As I pointed out earlier, all of this is a fantasy discussion of how to be President if the other party was not completely insane.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:23 PM on October 13, 2015


Giggity. (Double giggity)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2015


E.B. Farnum
Yes! I was flashing on someone standing at a counter... Thanks SLoG for figuring it out and for asking the question in the first place!
posted by carmicha at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


hahahaha Bernie confusingly stated how confusing the middle east is
posted by numaner at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hillary has relaxed and now she is speaking more naturally.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2015


Hillary gets points for declaring war on the NRA. However, I think Bernie's ideas are probably closer to the majority and whether anyone on that stage likes it or not - the rural thing does comes into play if you've ever looked at a friggin' map of the country.

I'm totally feeling the Bern, but this same argument coming from a Hillary supporter would be called "triangulating."
posted by tonycpsu at 6:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


Hillary Clinton: Obama thought my judgment was good enough to be Secretary of State. *drops mic*
posted by Justinian at 6:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


"He's questioning your judgement!" Are you going to let him get away with that?
posted by homunculus at 6:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


it's been... 25 minutes? and she name dropped Obama already.
posted by numaner at 6:26 PM on October 13, 2015


Hillary Clinton has definitely taken notes from Obama's public speaking, in terms of cadence, gestures, etc. Really interesting to see the difference in 8 years.
posted by likeatoaster at 6:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh Jebus these moderators. Let the conversation flow.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


but if they keep arguing how will CNN ensure the office pool have credible results?
posted by numaner at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2015


I completely disagree with all of the moderators/Cooper hate here. I think Cooper is doing a fabulous job asking hard questions, following up when people dodge them, and trying to engage all of the candidates.
posted by likeatoaster at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Look at this crazy commie gun nut! He's not nearly hawkish enough!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


But Senator, under what circumstances would you kill the bastards?
posted by Drastic at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Man I've got a lot of love for Bernie but he really needs to work on how defensive he comes across.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Sanders isn't going to win the primaries unless he gets way better at this shit fast. His performance in this debate is nowhere near Clinton's. He's coming off more like the miscellaneous three than like Clinton.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


OH GOD, WHY DID I NOTICE O'MALLEY'S EARS??? NOW I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING ELSE
posted by numaner at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think my dog took herself to bed. Poor thing. Usually at this time of day we would be lolling around on the big master bed, watching TV and snuggling. Instead mommy is sitting at a desk staring at the computer and muttering under her breath.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Baelish/Farnum 2016!
posted by homunculus at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Stop being a whiny non-entity, Webb.
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


O'Malley: "Plz don't hate me Hillary. VP, plz? Plz?"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015


What cabinet position is Martin O'Malley applying for? He's really playing a strong assist game for/with Clinton.
posted by absalom at 6:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I enjoyed it when Gov O'Malley endorsed me in 2008." Burn.
posted by carmicha at 6:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


"...when Governor O'Malley endorsed me in 2008" was gold.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:31 PM on October 13, 2015


man they stacked this debate perfectly. Clinton, Sanders, and three other weird looking old white men. Clinton's people are geniuses.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I kind of like seeing Clinton with her Hawk face on. I do think she enjoys the process.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I enjoyed it when Gov O'Malley endorsed me in 2008." Bern.
posted by numaner at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2015


Old Man Yells At Clinton
posted by Drinky Die at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Jim Webb knows bad body language when he sees it.
posted by box at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2015


We need the Oscar people to play Webb off musically.
posted by Justinian at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Is Jim Webb doing the Walk Like an Egyptian?
posted by notsnot at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015


Past bernies bedtime
posted by rmless at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Give me three bees for a nickel," says Jim Webb to a question about immigration.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Webb, no one gives a shit what you think. Calm your tits.
posted by kalimac at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Argh, Bernie, too pause-y.
posted by box at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015


O'Malley also started his opening remarks by complimenting Obama. He's definitely banking on a Hillary win and some of that sweet sweet establishment spoils.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


FiveThirtyEight:
One of Lincoln Chafee’s main reasons for being in the race is that he voted against the Iraq War while Hillary Clinton voted for it. The Iraq War may have helped to bring down Clinton in the 2008 Democratic presidential primary, but it’s a different time. Back then, 21 percent of Democrats said the Iraq War was the most important issue. When Chafee announced his campaign, just 3 percent did.
Of course, when Chaffee announced, the Iraq War was already over.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hillary makes good points when she's like "y'all just don't know how politics and diplomacy works". But I can't help but feel like she's the establishment and nothing substantial will change.
posted by numaner at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015


Where's Hillary's flag pin?
posted by carmicha at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Webb srsly staaaahp
posted by jason_steakums at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015


Obama '16!
posted by firevoice at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


ughhh sanders don't space out like that. it makes you come off like admiral whatshisface who ran with perot.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015


Heh, and Anderson asks Hillary the question about her that Webb refused (?) to answer.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2015


I think Bernie stopped listening for a few minutes, and honestly I can't blame him.
posted by naoko at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


BEEEEEEENGHAZI!!!!!
posted by DGStieber at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bernie got confused when Webb detoured to China.
posted by homunculus at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I will say this (I've been waiting for 10 minutes) YOU (China) do not own the South China Sea."

Well I'm glad he was able to get that off his chest.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I mean Jim Webb is boring, I know. I wasn't listening to him either. but Bernie, you gotta.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Where's Hillary's flag pin?

It's in her heart. Forever.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Yeah, sure you were totally getting to Benghazi there, Hillary.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2015


Benghazi: finish your drink.
posted by LucretiusJones at 6:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Where's Hillary's flag pin?

Hah! One more reason to vote for her. I hate that stoopid fake patriotism that everyone has to wear a flag pin
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Do you think Webb noticed when his eyebrows ran away and did he mind?
posted by rmless at 6:37 PM on October 13, 2015


Holy hell finally they stahpped about benghazi
posted by numaner at 6:38 PM on October 13, 2015


I really want the camera to pan away from Webb and when it comes back, it's Jon Voight.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Senator Webb, this commie pinko pacifist freak said he was a conscientious objector. How do you feel about him not being willing to kill the bastards?
posted by Drastic at 6:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Cooper wanted Webb to go after Bernie but he declined.
posted by homunculus at 6:38 PM on October 13, 2015


When Hillary dies and they cut open her chest, Benghazi! will be found carved on her heart.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


What lapel pins are Bernie and Webb wearing?
posted by box at 6:39 PM on October 13, 2015


Webb & Bernie BFFs 4evz
posted by jason_steakums at 6:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


SECNAV represent!
posted by buzzman at 6:39 PM on October 13, 2015


Does Bernie have dandruff on the right of his jacket or is that my monitor?
posted by Drinky Die at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2015


How many years in the pentagon did you spend, Webb? Remind me again, was it 3?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2015


Aww Webb and Bernie so kewt
posted by numaner at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2015


wait I don't think any of them are wearing the flag pin
posted by numaner at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


What is the greatest threat to America? You have five seconds to discuss it.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I love how Webb resents being ignored but has to shake off a second or two of deer in the headlights reaction when he's called on.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I was trying to figure out Bernie's pin when he walked out on stage. Probably some commie pinko union pacifist thing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I cannot wait for the day that Vietnam and draft-related actions are not an issue in elections. I understand it was a BFD for you, Boomers, but the rest of the country is living in a different world now.
posted by olinerd at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


Biggest national security threat is climate change? Berrrrrnniiiiie.
posted by box at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I think Bernie wears his senate pin.
posted by history_denier at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Damn, Webb, did China hack you or something?
posted by numaner at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Hm. Do the Dems see eye to eye on an issue splitting republicans.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015


ok, time for a refill.
posted by numaner at 6:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Webb has a hard on against China-- they are now our greatest threat.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Man I want to buy an F-35 so bad.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


Webb's pin is probably some sekret Marine doohickey.
posted by carmicha at 6:43 PM on October 13, 2015


I understand it was a BFD for you, Boomers, but the rest of the country is living in a different world now.

Exactly how I feel when I hear about the Kennedys. Its over. Move on.
posted by Justinian at 6:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Clinton is coming off more competent than Sanders. But he's somebody l do want in Congress. Don't think he is ready to handle the whole Presidential enchilada.
posted by emjaybee at 6:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Nobody said "Jeremy Corbyn"? There's a rift in US-UK relations forming here.
posted by Talez at 6:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


China has Webb's nudes.
posted by bgal81 at 6:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm not even watching television. But my Green-Party lighting designer friend has poked his nose in, and he has been all over Twitter and Facebook ranting - but not about the politics. He's been ranting about how "this is the worst color wash I've ever seen" and "the audience is lit better than the candidates" and I have been cracking up. (He's given up and switched to AGENTS OF SHIELD.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Bernie shoulda said a thing about the DoD viewing climate change as a threat...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wonder how much Lockheed-Martin paid for placing that jingoistic F35 ad.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Glorious.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Man, the online cnn thing is annoying. Won't work on mobile without their app, and even on a laptop, it keeps telling me that this is a limited time trial, so I'm not sure if it's gonna cut out or not.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Biggest national security threat is climate change?

Yeah it is. What do you think is going to happen when ecological collapse begins to fuck with our food supply...not to mention shrinking supplies of potable water.... That's going to make "national security" aka "making the world safe for American capitalism" seem pretty insignificant.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [51 favorites]


Damn, Webb, did China hack you or something?'

IKR? China needs to get off his lawn.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:46 PM on October 13, 2015


I understand it was a BFD for you, Boomers, but the rest of the country is living in a different world now.

Can I tell you as a Boomer that it was a huge fucking deal. Young men fled the country leaving everything and everyone behind because they didn't want to serve in a war they didn't believe in. Those who did serve were called baby killers and were spit on when they came back. It was horrible for everyone on both sides. And to those who came back with PTSD and missing body parts, people who fled rather than serve were considered traitors.

Yes, we have moved on but the hurt remains.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


The irony is, I do agree with him about how China's being a asshole about the South China Sea. Vietnam's getting this shit end of everything going there and I would like to be able to visit my old stomping grounds without having to learn Mandarin.
posted by numaner at 6:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mishandling classified information, officially not a big deal.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015


Yer damn emails! Yesss
posted by rmless at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Biggest national security threat is climate change?

The military and oil companies have certainly assessed it as a big deal... Not really sure why presidential candidates are supposed to prop up the fiction that it isn't.
posted by Artw at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015


That spitting thing is a little citation-needed, isn't it?
posted by box at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


HAHAHAHAHA Bernie! NO MORE EMAILS!

NO MORE! NO MORE! NO MORE!

/the moment (rose)
posted by numaner at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sanders won that point.
posted by LucretiusJones at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


What do you think is going to happen when ecological collapse begins to fuck with our food supply...not to mention shrinking supplies of potable water...

Look to California.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015


I really like how they back each other up.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


awww that was great.

i love you still bernie sry about things i said plz 4give me
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"The american people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn emails!" "Me too!" ok yeah they need to be running mates.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [18 favorites]


LOL look at that shit eating grin on H-Dogs face after Sanders went off on the emails.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Cooper really wants some blood.

SAY IT TO HER FACE, HORSE FARRIER!
posted by numaner at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Do you want to respond?

No.
posted by box at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [22 favorites]


The live audience seems to all agree that Anderson Cooper's questions are idiotic.
posted by octothorpe at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


(I'm cable-less, so I'm watching on this link on the laptop and Chrome-casting to the TV.)
posted by bentley at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015


LOL! Hillary just KILLED IT. "Do you want to respond?" "No."
posted by Stewriffic at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Those who did serve were called baby killers and were spit on when they came back.

This has been demonstrated as false, no?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


My first laugh of the night!

And boy did Clinton love that. Her face just lit up.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:51 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Why is Jesse Jackson there?
posted by fuse theorem at 6:51 PM on October 13, 2015


Hahahaha, well done O'Malley.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:51 PM on October 13, 2015


ooooooo
posted by Countess Elena at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015


Don Lemon robbed off his time in the spotlight.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


wooo BLM!
posted by numaner at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh, Webb is going to bomb on this question.
posted by olinerd at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Did Don Lemon just laugh at that question? about whose lives matter?
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015


Bernie says 'black lives matter.' And then he says 'institutional racism.'
posted by box at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


You had One Job, Don Lemon. One job.
posted by Justinian at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


oh wow neat I wonder how many people are gonna answer "I'm a total piece of shit."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"I want to talk about racial issues, so we brought along a black guy..."
posted by uosuaq at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


SANDRA BLAND

yes bernie yes!!!!
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Ok Chaffee it's go time! You can do this!

"...no."

*nyoro~n*
posted by jason_steakums at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I don't think so. I think he was laughing in dismay at his audio not working.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015


Did Don Lemon just laugh at that question? about whose lives matter?

No, he was laughing at the technical bungle.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Do you want to respond?

No.


Loooooooved this!
posted by vespertine at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015


That spitting thing is a little citation-needed, isn't it?

Do you genuinely believe that no Vietnam-era veteran was ever spat on?

No, it wasn't an epidemic, but it certainly happened that Vietnam-era veterans were discriminated against and looked down on, to the point that they are a protected class. Claiming it never happened is like saying that everyone who avoided the draft was a coward, which is also manifestly untrue.
posted by Etrigan at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


No, he was laughing at the technical bungle.

Yeah, he was, but he always has terrible timing.
posted by numaner at 6:54 PM on October 13, 2015


Huh. Bernie gets the "Do black lives matter?" question. So does the next guy. Then they change the question for Hillary. Didn't even try to get her to answer it. Curious.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"God given."
posted by LucretiusJones at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I hope Webb answers a question without whining about the debate at some point. It would be very refreshing.
posted by Justinian at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Webbbbbbbbbb

geez read the room man!
posted by numaner at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Webb, quit complaining about time. I hardly knew you before but now you're the petulant time guy.
posted by rmless at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I hope Webb answers a question without whining about the debate at some point. It would be very refreshing.

Aaaand right on cue...
posted by jason_steakums at 6:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


ohhh you risked your political life how brave.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Webb's not wrong about being neglected in the debate, but it doesn't make him look good to complain about it (especially so pointedly).
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


oh jesus. talking about "risking your (political) life" and "committing (political) suicide" when we're talking about actual people dying en masse.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


"hi I'm James Webb and I'm a piece of shit! CAN I HAVE MORE TIME PLEASE!?!"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


There were things I liked about Webb but I can no longer remember what they were.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Okay, is it just me, or does Bernie Sanders talk just like Larry David as George Steinbrenner in Seinfeld?
posted by gucci mane at 6:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


is anyone keeping a running tally of "god-given"?
posted by numaner at 6:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


WOULD CLINTON PLEASE STOP SAYING "GOD-GIVEN"
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think it's very likely that someone was spat on at some point. But I also think that the myth is much bigger than the story ever was. I also think it's a derail, either in a debate or a debate thread, and so I regret that comment and am inclined to leave it alone.
posted by box at 6:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Then they change the question for Hillary.

Yeah, they let her dodge the question. Then Webb gives a "well, one of my best friends is African American" type answer.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


As a boomer I will get over it when I am dead..until then it will always influence my POV on war, and the military, and how we treat those who return... It was so painful for us it will not be over till we are all dead...my two cents on the detail.
posted by cairnoflore at 6:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Clinton wants everyone to have the same chances to parlay power into profit? Well, that's nice.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:59 PM on October 13, 2015


Jim Webb definitely lost any chance he had tonight. But I gotta say, I don't think Bernie Sanders is doing all that great either, and I might actually be officially undecided on who should win the primary.
posted by likeatoaster at 6:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Webb: " This one African-American guy committed suicide but I stood up for him." Boy that is some great anecdote you have there, Jim.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Every time she says "god-given," my brain thinks she's about to say, "goddamn."
posted by flod at 6:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Did Clinton just say I have a 5 point economic plan?
posted by jilloftrades at 6:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


IN CASE REPUBLICANS ARE WATCHING, LEMME EXPLAIN WHAT GLASS-STEAGALL IS
posted by numaner at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


As a boomer I will get over it when I am dead..until then it will always influence my POV on war, and the military, and how we treat those who return... It was so painful for us it will not be over till we are all dead.

This, this so much.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015


I would support some kind of Captain Planet type situation with all of these candidates as president. Chaffee gets the Heart ring.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


it'd be really cool if this conversation could be about the debate and not about the historiocity of Vietnam pls kthnx
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Bernie put your hand down! you know he's gonna call on you!
posted by numaner at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015


I wonder if Hillary is just reviewing old plots of tv shows in her head or whatever while she cruises through this.
posted by rmless at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I like how unpolished Bernie is and from my perspective he nailed that black lives matter question. Hillary is doing better than I expected and she's much looser now but that doesn't negate her record for me.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


Marine-speak rarely translates well; the faith is there.
posted by buzzman at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015


Hillary, please just answer the question about Glass-Steagall.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bernie really needs to stop refering to himself in the third person.
posted by homunculus at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I would support some kind of Captain Planet type situation with all of these candidates as president. Chaffee gets the Heart ring.

Webb is Gi, since he's all about Asians and water.
posted by numaner at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015


Vice-a versa, idear.. Bernie talks like my 70-something mom, and I love it.
posted by box at 7:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I can see Wall Street from my house!"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Enh, I'll vote for Sanders or Clinton against whichever clown the Republicans nominate. As many times as possible.

Which is once, but I can dream.
posted by Justinian at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'm annoyed that people conflate the sentiment "black lives matter" with the mission of the organization known as "Black Lives Matter" (which is very specific) so they can sea lion about whether "all lives matter." My right wing asshole neighbor is always sending me links to news stories about black crime victims and wondering why the organization isn't weighing in. It's so moronic.
posted by carmicha at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I would support some kind of Captain Planet type situation with all of these candidates as president. Chaffee gets the Heart ring.

Well, the Republicans are basically Zarm so it kind of works.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I went to Wall Street and I said cut it out!" and they laughed and laughed...
posted by jason_steakums at 7:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


I like the way Hillary is battling, but I don't quite trust her on the banks.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bernie really needs to stop refering to himself in the third person.

If Bernie hasn't already been Bob Dole'd by SNL then it's coming.
posted by bgal81 at 7:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I said cut it out" Oh Clinton, you so folksie. I'm sure the Wall Street people sat up and listened to you as soon as you put on your "Mom" voice.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


You can't trust her on banks because of her "that's just how things work" attitude.
posted by numaner at 7:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Biggest surprise for me tonight has been Clinton and Sanders kinda sorta weirdly really getting along and playing off of each other in odd moments. It's... cute, actually.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Clinton and Obama "crashed" a meeting with the Chinese? Makes it sound quite casual.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:06 PM on October 13, 2015


hahah Webb did not expect to be called on for that
posted by numaner at 7:06 PM on October 13, 2015


You agreed, and you're wasting time.
posted by box at 7:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Webb is so whiny!
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]




Webb is like a walking embodiment of a facepalm.
posted by numaner at 7:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay now it's officially way too much whining. Before I was respecting it as a strategy to make sure he stays involved but it's way over the border into pathetic now.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I voted for something and I didn't know what it was because my dad died is not a good answer, dude.
posted by Justinian at 7:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


I'd just arrived.
posted by box at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, Chafee... this is more embarrassing than Webb doing whatever Webb is doing.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I like how hard Anderson Cooper is riding everyone. Can he moderate everything?
posted by rmless at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


yeah, I think he regretted that right away
posted by triggerfinger at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015


This is starting to get surreal. Not *Republican* surreal, but surreal.
posted by uosuaq at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not even supposed to be here!
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


oh you poor farrier you poor sweet man. :(
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


me and Obama crashed a Chinese meeting and we were all CHECK YOURSELVES FOOLS IT'S BARRY AND HILLS HERE TO SAVE THE PLANET
posted by little mouth at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


As annoying as it is, I can't really blame Webb for whining about time when Cooper isn't allowing people to answer any question substantially. He just wants a soundbite and nothing more.
posted by homunculus at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just realized what is going on with Webb's chest talking. He wore a uniform for many years, right? I think he acts like he is still wearing a uniform in the way he talks and holds his chin-- like he has a high, stiff collar.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'd just arrived in this thread
posted by numaner at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Chafee on his vote, "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon... you know, cause I've worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time."
posted by Drinky Die at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Bernie h-bomb.
posted by box at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, that Huckabee tweet.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Making fart noises with his mouth would have been a better debate answer than what Chafee just did
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


"It was my first day!"
posted by redsparkler at 7:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


oh thank god a substantial question got us back to sanity
posted by numaner at 7:10 PM on October 13, 2015


It's my first day.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I loved the part where Chaffee's body kept talking after his soul died of embarrassment.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [32 favorites]


It's his first day! He doesn't know how to use the Heart ring yet!
posted by numaner at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Bernie: Tax Wall Street
Audience: Cheer!!!!!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm sure Hillary's college loan refinancing plan is making her banking friends salivate.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


As a Virginian I was thrilled with Webb over the football coach's son when he ran for senator at the time but he was weak sauce in office.
posted by maggieb at 7:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I like these interlocutors better.
posted by LucretiusJones at 7:12 PM on October 13, 2015


I'M GOING TO SAY EVERYTHING BUT THE WORD "EXPAND"
posted by numaner at 7:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


honestly after all the republican debates it's so damn refreshing to be watching people who sound sensible, and not feel like I wandered into some kind of darker timeline.

it's also encouraging how fired-up the audience sounds! the GOP audience always seemed to have lukewarm-at-best reactions
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


In the darkest timeline, O'Malley is really evil Abed
posted by numaner at 7:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


man, when Sander's paying attention he's really on point. "I know that legislation, it has shit in it, so I didn't vote for it."
posted by numaner at 7:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [34 favorites]


It is really frustrating to me that we just had a debate about totally free higher education vs. not totally free higher education without ONE MENTION of the exorbitant interest rates on student loans. Like, surely capping interest rates at something lower than 7.9% is something Democrats can get behind regardless? Pipe dream, I guess.
posted by likeatoaster at 7:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Senator Webb, you may now waste your own time talking about something unrelated to the question.
posted by numaner at 7:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Look, I like Bernie, a lot, but none of these people are going to be able to compete with Trump in a debate. It's troubling.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jim Webb would kill Bernie Sanders with his bare hands without hesitation.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


like just tear him limb to limb while snarling "DIE COMMUNIST!!!"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I'm so used to blah, five second responses from debaters that express sentiment without substance. This whole debate is a reminder that another political America exists.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:18 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm kind of appalled by how little time anyone is getting to speak. Bernie & Hillary are steamrolling their way into more time, but even so...fucking hell, CNN. Not everything has to be a fucking soundbite.

Holy shit do I despise this network.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [27 favorites]


Of the three also rans, only O'Malley belongs on that stage.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


ok, if that wasn't a planned soundbite from Hillary I don't know what is. "Remember, ma'am, interrupt Cooper at some point and talk about how the whole group is more sane than Republicans"
posted by numaner at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think Bernie could shout Trump down if they gave him time for applause.
posted by LucretiusJones at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


scaryblackdeath, just switch to Mets/Dodgers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2015


Stop insulting carnival barkers!
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:20 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


O'Malley does pretty good when he's on secure footing, he's got the immigration points down.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:20 PM on October 13, 2015


Look, I like Bernie, a lot, but none of these people are going to be able to compete with Trump in a debate. It's troubling.

Don't underestimate the curmudgeonly powers of Sanders.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


Shorter Chafee: everybody else voted shittily, why not me?

Kinda undermines his Iraq War argument.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm kind of appalled by how little time anyone is getting to speak. Bernie & Hillary are steamrolling their way into more time, but even so...holy shit, CNN. Not everything has to be a fucking soundbite.

Hear, hear.
posted by homunculus at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2015


Sorry, I couldn't hear the question.

Well, the NSA did, ask them!
posted by Drinky Die at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


every time chafee comes on screen I feel for him so bad I kinda think I'm going to start actually crying out of sympathy.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


You seriously think Hillary couldn't take Trump in a debate? Seriously?
posted by bgal81 at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


You only get one gimme vote due to the death of a relative.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


If for literally nothing else, a Sanders - Trump debate would be delightful for the New Yorka accents.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


This whole debate, for all its frustrating specifics, has made me feel better. At least there are serious people on the stage.

Surprise performance to me is O'Malley, he's had some pretty good moments. Sanders still sounds strongest on actual issues, and really never comes across as triangulating or self-monitoring, which is so refreshing.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


If we ignore the actual reality that any attempt at whistle blowing would have sent him to jail without any of the information coming out he definitely could have been a whistle blower!
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


Look, I like Bernie, a lot, but none of these people are going to be able to compete with Trump in a debate.

I feel like that's like saying "Cristiano Ronaldo could never defeat Kobe Bryant!" Like, sure, because they're playing totally different games. Trump is gonna Trump, no matter what, and the people who like him will like him no matter what. Meanwhile, Hillary or Sanders are playing a totally different game, saying substantive things.
posted by yasaman at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Also, ew, step off, Anderson. "Bring him home?!? With no jail time?!?"
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Americer would be bettah faw that debate.
posted by rmless at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, and about that illegal government action? Let's ignore that. But Snowden? The law's the law, buddy!
posted by Drinky Die at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Jeez, Webb drops more G's than Tookie Williams.
posted by box at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Probably dumb question: what does "triangulating" mean in this context?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2015


Bombed the hospital: huge move.
posted by LucretiusJones at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't think Trump could handle any competent opponent, he's too used to either buying people off or firing them to get his way. He'd just yell and froth incoherently
posted by emjaybee at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think either Clinton or Sanders would just completely dismantle Trump in a debate. Trump is not a serious candidate or person.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


Snowden is more polarizing than I expected, but I think I like Bernie's answer.
posted by numaner at 7:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


no chafee don't ask for more time it's the only way you could have made it worse. i'm so sorry this is happening to you, guy.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


My vision of the Trump - Sanders debate goes like:

TRUMP: Yo, Sanders, you gots a bad haircut. BOO-yah.
SANDERS: *looks at TRUMP*
TRUMP: *smoking crater*
SANDERS: *begins laying out the issues*
posted by uosuaq at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Clinton: "I'd be different than Obama because I'd do all the things I would've done if y'all voted for me 8 years ago."
posted by numaner at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2015


How would she not be a third term President Obama? Huh? At the rate he's going, I would pay good cash money to see a third term President Obama.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


I don't think the revolution is gonna come.
posted by box at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2015


It's pretty clear what the agenda is when Anderson Cooper lets off Hillary off the hook about her comments about Snowden breaking the law, when she's knee-deep in dodgy email shit. Cooper, are you for real?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


No, Webb, stop pretending the opposition isn't crazy and any of this could actually happen. You're breaking the rules!
posted by Drinky Die at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


aw yeah drop that big R word bernie.

ps die in a fire jim webb.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


no chafee don't ask for more time it's the only way you could have made it worse. i'm so sorry this is happening to you, guy.

he's such a sweety, buddy
posted by numaner at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015


Wow three of them basically just admitted on cable that the NSA has a massive "databank" containing all of our digital ephemera.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


You want a revolution? I want a revelation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


You say you want a revolution...
posted by homunculus at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


FU, JW
posted by ghostbikes at 7:28 PM on October 13, 2015


Yes, Trump only knows his opinions on various matters. He says over and over that the actual policies will come later. I don't think he actually knows how to do anything and I don't think he will bother to memorize any facts. So, sure, he will be bombastic and shouty and sound authoritative but it will be smoke and mirrors.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:29 PM on October 13, 2015


what does "triangulating" mean in this context?

Sorry to be vague: I meant it to express those moments when a candidate is clearly calculating a position somewhere between a biased question's framing and what they really think, measuring what they can actually say. Clinton does that all the time, especially evident in response to Cooper's blunt questions.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


LET'S ALL SMOKE WEED DURING THE BREAK
posted by numaner at 7:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm done with Webb.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:29 PM on October 13, 2015


As critical as I am of Obama, I'd have loved to hear one of them say that being a 3rd Obama term wouldn't be a bad thing.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


Ahh, the marijuana question. Combined with the Snowden question we are now firmly in the phase of the debate where I'm reminded why I register as independent instead of Democratic.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


jim webb delenda est.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


none of these people are going to be able to compete with Trump in a debate.

Trump is going to get to the point of debating with any of the Democratic candidates only in some kind of completely dystopian alternate future history. So your point is perhaps true but not really relevant.

Thank heavens . . .
posted by flug at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015


Ok this time I really am gonna buy an F-35.
posted by Westringia F. at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


can't, my head aches, and coincidentally I'm out of Yellow Tail
posted by Countess Elena at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


LET'S ALL SMOKE WEED DURING THE BREAK

You laugh, but [goes to fetch vaporizer from seekrit hiding place]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


As critical as I am of Obama, I'd have loved to hear one of them say that being a 3rd Obama term wouldn't be a bad thing.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm just looking for a mind at work.
posted by bgal81 at 7:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


i'm pissed at that revolution comment of Webb's mostly because i know he's probably right, ugh
posted by ghostbikes at 7:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jim Webb you missed one hell of a calling as a typecast generic authority figure in movies.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


CNNs web site is so much better than their app- no crashes plus no commercials!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2015




don't be mad plz but i never thought bernie sanders was unelectable until this debate and now i am sad
posted by likeatoaster at 7:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


So when is Lee Majors going to star in Webb's biopic? (Seriously, I keep picturing the candidate in Steve Austin's red tracksuit.)
posted by sardonyx at 7:33 PM on October 13, 2015


Yeah, the website has been phenomenal.
posted by Stewriffic at 7:33 PM on October 13, 2015


Oh Jebus.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:33 PM on October 13, 2015


They referred to Hillary's pee break length??
posted by Stewriffic at 7:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Jim Webb looks like he's being slowly squeezed from a tube inside his suit
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Ahh, the marijuana question. Combined with the Snowden question we are now firmly in the phase of the debate where I'm reminded why I register as independent instead of Democratic.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:30 PM on October 13 [+] [!]


I have grudgingly accepted that it's bad politics at this historical juncture to openly call Snowden a hero, even though everyone who's worth a damn thinks he's a hero. It's just that most of the people outside of the wonderful bubble mefites live in have been taught that he's a monster, and there's no fighting that. Also, well, no one on stage wants the security state to actually murder them.

I wish Sanders hadn't waffled on that one too, but he made it up to me by saying "revolution" in his next answer. We'll be putting up statues of Snowden all across this continent some day, but it might not be until like after we've transferred all power to the soviets or whatever.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


Not only that - she played along with the length of the pee break thing. Ugh.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well if she hadn't said anything I would have assumed Jim Webb threatened to leave if he didn't get more time.

But that was unrealistic because Cooper probably would have just said "Bye."
posted by Drinky Die at 7:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


They referred to Hillary's pee break length??

Look, a ladies' room has lines
posted by Countess Elena at 7:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


i never thought bernie sanders was unelectable until this debate and now i am sad

I don't think he's unelectable, but I do think he came off as out of it a couple of times so far, and given his age that's no good.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:36 PM on October 13, 2015


don't be mad plz but i never thought bernie sanders was unelectable until this debate and now i am sad

I'm more #TeamHillary but let's not forget, Obama did pretty poorly against Hillary in their debates.
posted by bgal81 at 7:37 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm just glad NY will have an early primary. Cause I know who Brooklyn is voting for.
posted by dame at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2015


OK, let's get to Planned Parenthood already.
posted by Stewriffic at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Cooper: Why should you, an insider, get the crown, Hillary?
Clinton: "I can't imagine being more of an outsider

So predictable. Americans love a maverick, a rogue. But her statesmanship and ability to get things done is due to her being an insider.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Las Vegas, one of the most sustainable cities in America.
posted by box at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Cooper really wants Webb to just run home crying
posted by numaner at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2015


I WILL TELL YOU THIS:
posted by LucretiusJones at 7:39 PM on October 13, 2015


Chinaaaaaaaaaa, why hadst thou crosseth the Webb.. of doooooom!!
posted by numaner at 7:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Aaaaah did anyone else's feed just crap out?
posted by naoko at 7:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actually not so early! I feel lied to.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/primary-calendar-and-results.html?_r=0
posted by dame at 7:40 PM on October 13, 2015


the livestream just crashed for me, so I'm going to take this opportunity to say that if you want to think about something either really funny or really scary (not sure which), you could imagine a debate between Lincoln Chafee and Donald Trump.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Look, a ladies' room has lines

I doubt she had to wait in a line but it takes longer for the closing of the stall door and the arrangement of the clothes and the sitting and the rearrangement of the clothes and the washing of the hands vs. unzip, whip it out, pee in a urinal.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:41 PM on October 13, 2015


Aaaaah did anyone else's feed just crap out?

Yup, I've got nothing. I didn't appreciate Jim Webb enough while I still had him! I feel like such an Anderson Cooper.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:41 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


it's working fine for me, I'm streaming the flash vid straight from their home page
posted by numaner at 7:41 PM on October 13, 2015


I think the CNN stream may have crashed entirely. Is it still working for anyone?
posted by Drinky Die at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Nooo, Webb and Trump. Then we could take bets on how long before Webb snaps and starts beating the crap out of Trump!
posted by bgal81 at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Y'all missed Clinton say, "President Obama and I were literally hunting for the Chinese."
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


*shakes fist at numaner*
posted by Drinky Die at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Works for me still. ::::crossing fingers::::
posted by Stewriffic at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Still working for me
posted by craven_morhead at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015


Clinton and Obama hunting for the Chinese delegation's secret meeting is a pretty funny image.
posted by homunculus at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Feed's still working for me.
posted by octothorpe at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Still working for me
posted by infinitewindow at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


It crashed for me and I refreshed it three times and finally got it back the third time.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Jim Webb would be totally winning this debate if it were taking place in his home state of 1957.
posted by Etrigan at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [47 favorites]


Working.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


The TuneIn stream works for me.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


You guys are totally missing out on Webb and Chafee ditching the debate and playing patty cake with Don Lemon
posted by numaner at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


OK, I gotta bail out here. It's been fun, folks. Hope we get someone halfway sane next November.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Hooray(?), it's back!
posted by naoko at 7:44 PM on October 13, 2015


also I would kill to know what last-minute info Clinton was getting from her team during that alleged pee break.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:44 PM on October 13, 2015


Yay: weed question.
posted by LucretiusJones at 7:44 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm watching through Verizon's live tv app and I haven't had any problems.

Also, I really liked Hillary's point about paid leave in California. She's right, California's economy is equal to a small country's, we're a great test case.
posted by yasaman at 7:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey, stream's back! Man, that was a juggle.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Sanders really is pushing Clinton further left, huh? That "we will make the rich pay for it" comment.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:45 PM on October 13, 2015


Doobie time!!!
posted by rmless at 7:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ooooh, pro-weed goodness.
posted by Stewriffic at 7:45 PM on October 13, 2015


"and I would vote yes because the shit they are growing these days is incredibly dank."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


Hillary's great when she's charged up. I wish that she didn't come across as so stilted when she wasn't pissed off.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Tried it twice, didn't feel the bern.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


oh, Clinton calling out Fiorina with health care. nice.
posted by boo_radley at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"and you're not gonna start now."

* laughs *
...("I totally just took a hit during that long ass pee break")...
posted by numaner at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


O'Malley speaks with the same perpetually optimistic smile that Mr Rogers had.
Won't you please, please oh please, please won't you be... my elector.
posted by Westringia F. at 7:47 PM on October 13, 2015


I don't even like weed (it just doesn't do anything for me) but now I wanna light up with Bernie.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


What a cowardly answer from Hillary. And no asking the other candidates. Terrible.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]




Well CNN's streaming is working fine but I'm about ready to give out. I guess it is going to go over 2 hours. I'll Watch the marijuana question then I'm going to bed with a good book.

I wish that she didn't come across as so stilted when she wasn't pissed off.

I know what you mean. Her first 10 minutes were so overly rehearsed it came across as false and stilted. Right now she looks relaxed and she seems to be enjoying herself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:48 PM on October 13, 2015


Sanders' answer on the Nevada marijuana vote was great.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the CNN stream may have crashed entirely. Is it still working for anyone?

I found out, twice, that Hilary and Obama were "hunting"--which is great! Maybe they got some tips from Cheney or something?

But it keeps getting stuck at just exactly that point, leaving us completely up in the air as to whether H & O were, in the best tradition of the Oval Office, out hunting top campaign contributors or just what . . .
posted by flug at 7:49 PM on October 13, 2015


It took HRC a lot of words about medical Marijuana to say "I'm evolving"
posted by Going To Maine at 7:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey, stream's back! Man, that was a juggle.

Enough about the pee break!
posted by escabeche at 7:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Huh. I was surprised that Bernie didn't mention the HSBC settlement when talking about the hypocrisy of the drug war.
posted by homunculus at 7:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Weird that the CNN stream just goes dead during the commercial break.
posted by octothorpe at 7:52 PM on October 13, 2015


hahah O'Malley rattled off the NRA like a gold medal.
posted by numaner at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


HAHAHAH I KILLED A MAN. - Webb.
posted by Justinian at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [34 favorites]


WTF WEBB
posted by numaner at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


HE KILLED A GUY!
posted by Arbac at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was sure Webb was going to say "you, Anderson!"
posted by homunculus at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Aw Webb you Webb'd that one up good
posted by jason_steakums at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


AH I MISSED IT WHAT DID HE SAY???
posted by naoko at 7:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


aww Chafee, bless his heart
posted by numaner at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


No scandals.
posted by box at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015


Seriously Webb? You killed a guy? Thats your take home point?
posted by craven_morhead at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


someone accidentally spliced in a clip from a coens movie I haven't seen. that has to be it. there's no way that jim webb actually said that, right?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


How great would it be if Webb's anecdote ended in the revelation that the ghost of the man he killed was his greatest enemy
posted by jason_steakums at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


Chaffee's had no scandals! Again! Yet!
posted by wallabear at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wish they were asked how they made a cup of tea. You can tell a lot about a person through their answer.
posted by Wordshore at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


wonder what Webb's Republican poll numbers are looking like
posted by ghostbikes at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


I'm not crazy about the fact that HRC named "Iranians" as her enemy. Not all Iranians are assholes - in fact, I'd say most of them ARE NOT ASSHOLES. Name specific Iranians or specific Iranian parties, HRC.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [29 favorites]


That's what war does to you - you have some very dark places you can go to at very unexpected moments.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I'm proud of my judgment. Except that time I had no idea what I was voting for. And that other time everybody was all voting for more wiretaps."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Lincoln Chafee looks like a seemingly kindly shopkeeper with a very dark secret.
posted by goHermGO at 7:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [32 favorites]


Holy shit Webb put a great big "I'm a badass!" bow on his one-man shitshow.
I wonder how many of his staffers are looking for new jobs right now.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I kind of went into this thinking that all of the Remaining Three (as I think of them) were basically onstage to try to get that great line in that will put them into the running - but Jim Webb strikes me as having seriously considered himself as in the running and wondering why he's not getting equal attention to the front-runners, and O'Malley, as pretty much everyone on the Internet has mentioned at least once, is obviously angling for a Clinton VP slot. Chaffee is someone I didn't even know existed before this and I greatly wish I could return to that state.

I think Hillary and Bernie are both doing well. Neither of them are showing the pressure at all, and maybe they're not feeling pressure - there will be other debates and it is, after all, a different thing to have one competitor than the dozen or so each Republican candidate has to deal with. It's definitely got a much more, dunno, "collegial" feel to it? In contrast to the shark-tank full of whale guts that was the Republican debate, anyway.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Lincoln Chafee looks like a seemingly kindly shopkeeper with a very dark secret.

"I have had no scandals. I am a proven peacemaker. There's nothing in my shed."
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [34 favorites]


the GOP snuck Webb in, right? is he their idea of a joke?
posted by hollisimo at 7:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


You know that's Caroll Spinney in the Chafee suit
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


That really escalated quickly.

Webb killed a guy with a trident.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


man, O'Malley is really pushing for that VP spot
posted by numaner at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


O'Malley with the classic sitcom summing up of the episode's lesson
posted by jason_steakums at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


hahah O'Malley rattled off the NRA like a gold medal.

Cooper: Which enemy are you proudest of making?
Me: Somebody there better say the NRA.
O'Malley: The National Rifle Association
Me [CLAPS LOUDLY]

srsly, +1000 points right there
posted by psoas at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Man when O'Malley wrote his closing speech he clearly had no idea how good Webb is at public racism.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh, O'Malley's running for VP. Duh.
posted by uosuaq at 7:59 PM on October 13, 2015


Ew, no, Hillary. Thank god everyone will be talking about Jim "I shot a man just to watch him die" Webb.
posted by bgal81 at 7:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Major country seems like a weird phrase
posted by craven_morhead at 8:00 PM on October 13, 2015


"Killed a guy in Southeast Asia, just for the hell of it, he didn't like me too much, heh heh heh"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


closing of the stall door and the arrangement of the clothes and the sitting and the rearrangement of the clothes and the washing of the hands vs. unzip, whip it out, pee in a urinal.

Looks like Hillary "Hand Hygiene" Clinton wins my vote!
posted by Panjandrum at 8:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Thing is: among our awful problems with how we treat veterans in this country is that we DON'T actually want them to be proud of their specific actions. You put on a uniform? Let me buy you a beer! You served? Thank you for your service! It was awful? Yeah, I can't even imagine. I'm here to listen. That's the good way to respond.

...wait, you mean you actually HURT someone? OMG DON'T TELL ME ABOUT THAT! I DON'T WANT TO KNOW! YOU MONSTER! GET AWAY FROM ME!

We need to learn to let vets talk about the good and the bad, about the things that they're ashamed of and the things that make them proud, including the fighting.

All that said: holy shit, don't brag about killing a dude in a presidential debate. How the fuck does anyone think that's a good idea?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [38 favorites]


at least they're all in agreement that they're not as crazy as the GOP candidates... except for Webb.
posted by numaner at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2015


In sum, Republicans are a land of contrasts.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay, I snarked at Webb's answer and I think it was a bad answer but to be fair he shot a man because that man threw a grenade at him.
posted by Justinian at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


OK, peace out. It's way past my bedtime.
posted by Stewriffic at 8:02 PM on October 13, 2015


I mean, anyone who puts the milk in before the tea should be constitutionally barred from running for office.
posted by Wordshore at 8:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Okay, I snarked at Webb's answer and I think it was a bad answer but to be fair he shot a man because that man threw a grenade at him.

But that speaks volumes about his experiences that he considers that his proudest enemy to have had.
posted by numaner at 8:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


yeah but the question was "who was an enemy you were proud to make?" and his answer was "some poor schmuck also conscripted to fight for his country in a pointless war. luckily I killed him before he killed me!"
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [35 favorites]


Look Chaffee, if you were any kind of a threat, they'd just manufacture a scandal about you. It's SOP for the Republicans. Lucky for you, you have no chance, so they will ignore your invitation to invent some dirt and take you out.
posted by emjaybee at 8:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]




I mean, anyone who puts the milk in before the tea should be constitutionally barred from running for office.

Why do you want our leaders to do tea wrong? Some kind of punishment to make them not feel so isolated from the suffering of the average citizen?
posted by Drinky Die at 8:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Drinky Die: "I'm not sure I get the enthusiasm for Biden. He seems like a good guy but I don't think that his policies are all that different than Clinton's and he's almost as old as Sanders.

Yeah, he's just a Clinton alternative for people who don't like Clinton. There are a lot of reasons people don't like her, some completely illegitimate (sexism) and some at least a bit legitimate (dislike of political dynasty) so an alternative has some built in numbers in the polls. Biden ran a bunch of times before though and didn't do so great, no reason to necessarily expect he would do much better this time if he actually ran.

I just want him to be VP again. Who better?
"

Too much smelled bad during the Clinton administration, IMO, and I really can't accept the idea Hilary knew nothing and did nothing wrong.

Also, I knew Sean Smith, so there's that too.
posted by Samizdata at 8:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


yeah but the question was "who was an enemy you were proud to make?" and his answer was "some poor schmuck also conscripted to fight for his country in a pointless war. luckily I killed him before he killed me!"

Ok but it's not like he hunted Chinese people or something
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Sanders won the Twitter portion of the debate

Chafee doesn't have a twitter account??
posted by numaner at 8:06 PM on October 13, 2015


I was kinda shocked that he didn't just tear off his shirt and scream "CHINAAAA!" when asked about his greatest enemy.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


*Sanders won the Twitter portion of the debate*

This is my surprised face. Sanders would have to at least drive all of the other candidates off the service for it to be noteworthy.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


What's this tea nonsense? The United States literally fought a war to be free of the milk/tea vs. tea/milk litmus test!
posted by Panjandrum at 8:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


In other news, Webb has announced that, if elected, he will take a hard line with Big Moderation to ensure that no American has to stand and wait for ten minutes to speak.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


This is (literally) the sixth time CNN has played to the Flug Household "Literally, President Obama and I were HUNTING" <cut><hang><die><twirly icon><wait-a-while><repeat><six-times-over> . . .

Obviously, this can mean only one thing. Space aliens are trying to send some a message to Hilary. Forget climate change, economy, MJ, taxes, college, whatever. You gotta drop all that and focus on HUNTING if want to reach Americans today . . .

Hunting, hunting, hunting, Hunting, Hunting, HUNTING!!!!

It's worked before--it can work again. Hilary: Get to work. On your HUNTING.

We never did get to find out what H & O were hunting. Crawdads, maybe?
posted by flug at 8:08 PM on October 13, 2015


I bet Bernie secretly uses sugar tongs.
posted by Wordshore at 8:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


It was a trick question, the right answer was "TEA? I DRINK COFFEE LIKE A REAL AMERICAN."
posted by mmoncur at 8:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


If the enemy Webb was proudest to make was someone he was sent to kill, in combat, I can only assume what he means is he will pursue turning Congress into Thunderdome.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Sanders won the Twitter portion of the debate

Does Chafee not have a twitter account? Or were his results so embarrassing they can only be discussed, ortolan-like, while hiding under a napkin?
posted by Panjandrum at 8:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Chafee probably serves you tea with the handle on the left so you'd see the pretty front face of the cup. <3
posted by numaner at 8:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


srsly though I bet Chafee was a great farrier. all calm and soothing and kind around the horses.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is (literally) the sixth time CNN has played to the Flug Household "Literally, President Obama and I were HUNTING" . . .

No, your feed is fine, she actually just repeated it like... a ton of times. It was pretty weird.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


People, people, Webb was a Republican and still is an opportunist. There is a whole big Lifetime movie there ifn you know what I know. I like his contrast factor in this debate but I would never, ever vote for him unless his opponent made me want to puke (...like this one time back in ole virginny.)
posted by maggieb at 8:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't think I can call a winner on this one. Hillary and Bernie both did what they came to do, everybody else remained an afterthought with no chance.

Gun to my head, Hillary won, just because Bernie was far from doing enough to change the dynamics of this race very much imo.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:10 PM on October 13, 2015


YOUR PREVIEW HAS EXPIRED.

No, CNN, it ended right when I needed it to. right when I needed it.
posted by numaner at 8:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


I just figured out who Chafee looks like and it's been bugging me this whole debate: a young Mark McKinney in old man makeup.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


tonycpsu: "Seeing the stupid shit that Presidents 1-44 have done, I'm thinking that maybe not being a dude is a merit in and of itself."

What did William Henry Harrison ever do to *you*?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


No candidate for president is going to admit to drinking tea unless maybe cold sweet tea.
posted by octothorpe at 8:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


God help the butler who forgets to add a slice of lemon to Webb's morning tea.
posted by Wordshore at 8:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I thought Clinton looked super shaky when talking about big banks but otherwise I think she is in a safe place wrt to opinion polls.
posted by asra at 8:13 PM on October 13, 2015


The real takeaway from this is that it's time to find nice, safe, quiet jobs for everyone at CNN as far from journalism as we can arrange, and then burn the entire fucking network to the ground.

DAMN do I want to see Al-Jazeera host one of these debates.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [38 favorites]


apparently Huckabee had more to say. Jesus Christ on hockey sticks.
posted by numaner at 8:13 PM on October 13, 2015


Sanders was more passionate, issue-oriented, and advocated for more serious solutions to more serious problems, but his delivery was all over the place and seemed surprisingly unsteady at times. Clinton dominated in terms of coherence, charisma, and confidence. Bernie wins on paper, but style is so important at this level.

O'Malley was a solid runner-up, and I wouldn't be unhappy voting for him if Clinton and Sanders imploded.

Toughest question of the night: who was more awful, Webb or Chafee?
posted by Rhaomi at 8:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


andrewcooke: "do you have anyone who doesn't identify as middle class?"

Me. I am po'. So po' I can't even afford the last two letters.

Ever heard of a sugar daddy? I'd be a Sweet 'N' Low daddy.
posted by Samizdata at 8:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


tonycpsu: "Seeing the stupid shit that Presidents 1-44 have done, I'm thinking that maybe not being a dude is a merit in and of itself."

What did William Henry Harrison ever do to *you*?


He didn't get a chance to!
posted by numaner at 8:16 PM on October 13, 2015


Toughest question of the night: who was more awful, Webb or Chafee?

That is surprisingly hard to answer! I would say Webb but "it was my first day!" alone is like catching the snitch.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


I got a salty daddy. Literally, he brings me packages of salt for my bowl of white rice.
posted by numaner at 8:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh goodness it only now just occurred to me that slain-Marines-should-have-had-guns [cache] Jim Webb answered the biggest-enemy question with the guy he shot in order to contrast himself to the candidates who mentioned the NRA.
posted by Westringia F. at 8:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


What did William Henry Harrison ever do to *you*?

3 hour inauguration speech #neverforget
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Toughest question of the night: who was more awful, Webb or Chafee?

Webb, if only because he decided to bring up that time he killed a man. There's a time and a place, dude, and a televised debate about whether you're fit to run for office is not it.
posted by yasaman at 8:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah...to be fair; both Webb and Chafee were Republicans right up until the Teahadists caught up with them...so, a pox on them both, but I think Whiney Webb gets the prize for most annoying also-ran for this debate.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:19 PM on October 13, 2015


Toughest question of the night: who was more awful, Webb or Chafee?

Webb, if only because he decided to bring up that time he killed a man. There's a time and a place, dude, and a televised debate about whether you're fit to run for office is not it.


This. Seriously, Chafee had it in the bag with "Aw, c'mon, don't hold me accountable for that vote, I was new and my dad just passed away!" and then somehow Webb managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the final fleeting moments.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Wow, Huckabee is such a racist asshole. Jesus Christ.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


I think there's virtually 0% chance O'Malley gets the VP slot. Maryland is a reliable blue state, and the GOP would go hard on his record in Baltimore. He might pick up a Cabinet slot, that's it.

Julian Castro seems way more likely.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:20 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


after tearing Sanders limb from limb while snarling "die communist," Webb would look at Chafee, start to lumber over to dismantle him, and then stop with disgust on his face and mutter "you're not even worth killing, you little weasel" before stomping his way offstage.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh lord, some Vietnamese friends on FB are already cheering Webb for his stance on China.
posted by numaner at 8:23 PM on October 13, 2015


All the candidates are so goddamn shouty. THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT, OK???
posted by zardoz at 8:28 PM on October 13, 2015


THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS TO SHOUT! WE SHOULD BE SEEING MORE PISSY!
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


> Toughest question of the night: who was more awful, Webb or Chafee?

To split hairs, Chafee did more poorly, while Webb was actually awful.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


O'Malley seems a decent guy, but the type you discover one day uses tea bags instead of loose leaf so you end up having to awkwardly shun him in polite society for the next decade or so.
posted by Wordshore at 8:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


plz save discussion of teabagging for the next republican debate thread thx
posted by indubitable at 8:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [20 favorites]


One thing on the Chafee answer, which was obviously unambiguously awful but I'm seeing one thing that is getting misrepresented. When he mentioned his Dad had just died he was not trying to say his grief was impacting his judgement, he was explaining how he ended up in the Senate. He was appointed to the position after the previous office holder, his Dad, had died. He was running for the position anyway, so it's still a garbage excuse for not being prepared to serve.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


but how could anyone notice what kind of tea O'Malley drinks when they can't look away from his ears?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jim Webb is being driven back to his hotel room, sitting in the back of a limo, nursing a scotch and polishing his Ruger
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


FWIW, general internet/media consensus - Josh Marshall, Kevin Drum, Poltical Wire, 538 - seems to be a moderate to strong Clinton win. At the very least, she maintains her lead.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Webb would've done better in the Republican debate.
posted by saul wright at 8:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


All the candidates are so goddamn shouty. THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT, OK???

Eh, I disagree. I love when candidates actually get angry about how stupid and fucked up some of our policies are in this country. I certainly get mad about it! Their genuine anger about real problems provides a stark contrast with the "extended cable news commentator audtion / blatant cash grab" empty poise I saw so much of in the Republican debates.
posted by dialetheia at 8:37 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wordshore, you are the bothered-by-the-owl guy. I like your observations because they are so different from my own.
posted by maggieb at 8:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


FWIW, general internet/media consensus - Josh Marshall, Kevin Drum, Poltical Wire, 538 - seems to be a moderate to strong Clinton win.

Pfft, listen to the REAL experts.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:39 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Is there any universe in which the mainstream sites would not say Clinton won? Where I was it was Bernie by a landslide but it was that way when we went in, too. Because Bushwick. But if Bernie changed no minds, neither did Clinton
posted by dame at 8:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Word to your mother.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Everyone's going to be talking about Webb all day tomorrow. And then we'll forget his name by the next GOP debate.
posted by numaner at 8:41 PM on October 13, 2015


Is there any universe in which the mainstream sites would not say Clinton won?

Seriously? A lot of the mainstream media hates Hillary. They would love for her to nose-dive, if for no other reason than it would make the race more interesting.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:42 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]




Chris Matthews is talking to Wayne Newton about the debate. Why, Matthews? Why?
posted by Justinian at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Michael Moore:
Here's what we learned: Chafee's a simple man, O'Malley summed up the nite, Clinton's a capitalist, Sanders a socialist & Webb killed a guy
posted by numaner at 8:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Webb is frantically retweeting various positive tweets that explain how he obviously won. I am fascinated by and also concerned about these people.
posted by naoko at 8:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


FWIW, even my brother (who has a serious case of *cough* heart-Bern) thinks Clinton won this one.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'd kinda like Webb to get to the point of having to debate Republicans cause you know he'd be like why don't we ditch this cable teevee bullshit and settle this Most Dangerous Game style
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


The Daily Show twitter got O'Malley staring down Hillary and Chafee, I forgot to make a note of these when he did it!
posted by numaner at 8:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


both Webb and Chafee were Republicans right up until the Teahadists

When was Webb a Republican? He was SecNav for about a year under Reagan, but I don't think he ever ran as a Republican, and certainly wasn't chased out of the party by its right wing...
posted by axiom at 8:47 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Fuck Webb. Grab that hand-truck and wheel him outta here.
posted by wallabear at 8:47 PM on October 13, 2015


[The mainstream media] would love for her to nose-dive, if for no other reason than it would make the race more interesting.

Whatever the media does, above all else, it does to maximize ad revenue. Keeping the election "close" and "dramatic" keeps profitable eyeballs glued to TVs, computer screens, radio, print etc. — at least until the corporate bosses work out who to pick as our next leader. Seeing her nose-dive this early is not good for business, which is why she is given as much airtime as she likes.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:48 PM on October 13, 2015


[tomorrow morning]
JIM WEBB They didn't give me my time...
BARISTA Mr. Webb, this is a Starbucks
JIM WEBB You know I killed a man
posted by numaner at 8:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [37 favorites]


Shrug. She got tons of boos here and said the same uninspired crap she always does. I think she probably won under the same rules that CNN & the Times report by — the same ones where its pretty much suicide to say Snowden shouldn't go to jail. But that 538 says she did best isn't a surprise.
posted by dame at 8:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


All the aging Boomer types on my FB (mostly older liberals) like Bernie, so that could turn out well for him, because they vote. Hard to tell with the youngers, they're cagey. Some like him for sure, some are just not saying. I don't think the word "socialism" scares many of them, though. Doesn't have that Cold War resonance to them; if they know anything about it at all, it's positive and related to healthcare and family leave and education.

I like Sanders on domestic stuff/overall approach, but I'm just not sure he's ready to meet with world leaders and handle diplomacy and military issues. I'd still vote for him over any Republican, though.

I think it's interesting that Clinton was sometimes sticking pretty close to safe fuzzy lady-topics like families and leave and education, because she actually got a better reaction when she got angry about the Planned Parenthood crap. More Angry About Sexist Shit Hilary, please. We all love babies and yes we need paid leave, but also we need to take down some assholes first.
posted by emjaybee at 8:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]




T.D. Strange: "Curt Schilling Has A Democratic Debate Take For You"

And why should I care what a person I see as a thief first and incompetent second, as well as brutally murdering a favorite game studio, thinks?
posted by Samizdata at 8:52 PM on October 13, 2015


I don't think there is room for Biden in this field any more. Stick a fork in him.
posted by Justinian at 8:53 PM on October 13, 2015




I like O'Malley's final thought: "That tells me we are moving to a more connected, generous, compassionate place, and we need to speak to the goodness within our country." Nice to hear a candidate talk about compassion.

That being said, I could not stop thinking about his elf ears.
posted by k8bot at 8:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


SERIOUSLY, his ears will be the secretary of education and secretary of transportation in his cabinet.
posted by numaner at 8:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like Sanders on domestic stuff/overall approach, but I'm just not sure he's ready to meet with world leaders and handle diplomacy and military issues.

It's certainly not his strength. But American's generally don't elect leaders on their foreign policy stance. Bush Jr. pretty much said "I don't know about foreign policy, but I'll surround myself with smart people that my dad used" (which was pretty much true, but his dad was ex-CIA, and in charge of those folks, Bush Jr did what they told him to do, which was obviously disastrous).

Bernie seems serious in trying to negotiate trade deals that favor the workers of the country, instead of the corporations. And he also seems serious in not engaging in unilateral military action (which generally is a shitshow when the US tries to do that shit, and they've done so under Republican and Democrat presidents).

While it's not his forte, I still think he'll do better than recent presidents on foreign policy.
posted by el io at 8:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


We could elect a rotten potato and it would do better than recent presidents on foreign policy.
posted by Justinian at 8:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


(Obama's Iran deal excepted).
posted by Justinian at 8:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Nice to hear a candidate talk about compassion.

There was a candidate who talked a lot about compassion just 15 years ago!
posted by escabeche at 9:00 PM on October 13, 2015


Another thought; while I agree that Hilary 'won' this debate, I do wonder how many people changed who they were supporting. Hilary is obviously a better debater.

But her answer to 'how are you different than Obama', was weak at best: 'I'm a woman'. Um, err.... Being a woman doesn't make you an outsider, and she's pretty much as much of an insider as is running in this election (from either party).
posted by el io at 9:01 PM on October 13, 2015


Shrug. She got tons of boos here and said the same uninspired crap she always does. I think she probably won under the same rules that CNN & the Times report by — the same ones where its pretty much suicide to say Snowden shouldn't go to jail. But that 538 says she did best isn't a surprise.

To be fair, those rules tend to have a much better history of predictive success than "what do people in a bar in Bushwick think?"
posted by escabeche at 9:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


> All the aging Boomer types on my FB (mostly older liberals) like Bernie, so that could turn out well for him, because they vote. Hard to tell with the youngers, they're cagey.

If the youngers don't turn out to vote, no Democratic candidate is going to win.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Because they tell people what to think. But I don't think you can win if you don't change minds. It's like the saddest draw ever.
posted by dame at 9:03 PM on October 13, 2015


When was Webb a Republican? He was SecNav for about a year under Reagan, but I don't think he ever ran as a Republican, and certainly wasn't chased out of the party by its right wing...
posted by axiom

Good question. I must be wrong on the internet. I cannot find a cite to support my supposition. I do not want to tar him with that brush erroneously.
posted by maggieb at 9:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]




Bernie did have a great answer on electability; he energizes the voters and will increase the turnout. Increasing the turnout (and getting people who had never voted before to participate in the system) is the only reason Obama won his presidency.

Outside of my concerns for Clinton's policy stances, I don't think she would energize young voters in the way that Bernie has done so far.
posted by el io at 9:04 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Bernie energizes one part of the base. Primarily upper middle class white people. It isn't at all clear to me that there would be more turnout for Sanders than Clinton.
posted by Justinian at 9:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]




And when I say "they tell people what to think," I mean that if liberal, not-actually-leftist media started saying tomorrow Bernie was on a roll and a great populist savior, he would win. Cf: Iraq War.
posted by dame at 9:09 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Primarily upper middle class white people.

Plenty of young people, too. And he's become much more popular among Black activists since he responded so well to the protests (as evidenced by his cogent answer to the Black lives matter question tonight).
posted by dialetheia at 9:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Bernie did have a great answer on electability; he energizes the voters and will increase the turnout.

His energy may ultimately benefit Hillary, it should be said, since a lot of younger voters who got, well, burned by Obama and the DNC are already tough to bring to the voting booths, as he has noted.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:12 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Interesting. A "who won" poll on Slate is showing Sanders by 2:1, but the same question on Kos is nearly a dead heat. The numbers are changing though, Clinton was leading on Kos when I first checked, but is now behind.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:18 PM on October 13, 2015


From FiveThirtyEight, who was being googled the most as the debate went on.

It seems that everyone forgot all about poor Lincoln Chafee until near the end, and then went "wait, who is that guy? Eh, nevermind.".
posted by tocts at 9:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


And when I say "they tell people what to think," I mean that if liberal, not-actually-leftist media started saying tomorrow Bernie was on a roll and a great populist savior, he would win. Cf: Iraq War.

Anecdata: All of the Google News Alerts that I see for Sanders are about how he’s really giving Hillary a run for the money, so I’m pretty sure the media loves the idea of them fighting it out. Sanders v. Trump would be a dream.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:29 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I wish Bernie would have discussed more his position on guns. It's obvious his position is more nuanced (or it seems to me) than many folks (on either side of the subject). While he mentioned several times he represented a rural state, he didn't clearly state what gun rights he supported (although he was clear about problems he had with current gun laws and restrictions he'd like to pass).

I assume if he gets the party nomination he'll make this more clear when debating with republican candidates. It doesn't serve his interest to bring up the support he does have for gun rights in a democrat debate. But it is obvious that he wants to make it clear to rural gun owners that he's not coming for their hunting weapons (or farm/protect the livestock weapons).

Personally, I do not want to ever own a gun, and think it's a idiotic thing for someone in an urban area to have. But I understand responsible gun ownership, particularly in rural areas, and am not an absolutist when it comes to gun reform. I suspect my position on the subject mirrors Bernie's.
posted by el io at 9:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Not sure why O'Malley's record in Baltimore doesn't make him a non-starter in the first place.

Sanders did OK, but his "from a rural state" nonsense about guns was an enormous strike against him, at least for me. I suspect his online team will be out in force this evening. He didn't explode onstage, and he's the only candidate with the right answer about the environment being the biggest threat.

Chaffee gave the worst answer I've ever seen in politics. "It was my first vote!" He had plenty of time to think about that one, yet that was the answer he chose. A ficus would have had a better answer.

Webb would have done well in the GOP debate, I think. Not sure why he was on that stage.

Hillary has put up with so much nonsense, felt like she was still a bit rehearsed at the beginning but she did loosen up a bit later on. I was hoping for a little more of her SNL barkeep appearance. The Benghazi shit has got to be beyond tiresome at this point. Sanders had it right, there. Years of political machinations using four dead US citizens as a political cudgel, it's sickening.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


CNN is headlining with "CLINTON'S CONFIDENT SWEEP!" If you read the first paragraph, it's explained that she "swept confidently in." Uh-huh.

Meanwhile a screenshot of CNN's Facebook poll is circulating on the interwebs that has Sanders at 85%, and CNN is running this prediction-market-ish thingie that has Clinton at 85%.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:39 PM on October 13, 2015


Reading this thread was so much more entertaining and less soul crushing* than actually watching the debate live. Thank you to all the mefites who managed to make it through the debate so that I didn't have to.

*I reached my peak level of political involvement in 2004 when I was 16. I put in many, many hours volunteering for Kerry's campaign and watching cable news pretty much nonstop. When Bush was re-elected, I was so devastated and scarred that I still haven't fully recovered, so I have to very carefully modulate my exposure to US politics if I don't want to end up curled up in the fetal position having lost the will to live.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [24 favorites]


On the climate change issue, I wish O'Malley had repeated his comments from earlier in the year.
posted by Wordshore at 9:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Bush's re-election was a disaster for the nation. Thanks for trying, LSM. Go to hell, swift boat liars.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


Actually my shouty comment was more about how I was hearing the video (on my laptop, with headphones). The acoustics in the hall or something made their voices reverb-y or something and I had to turn it down. Content-wise, yes, they should be shouting to the heavens.
posted by zardoz at 9:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh man, you're really not going to convince me "Hey, not having foreign policy experience is NBD," by pointing to Bush. Bush also ran on an anti-intellectual image of aw-shucks-ness that Sanders is not, though maybe he is doing the liberal version with "person passionate about the issues with heart in the right place who sometimes gaffes."

I think Sanders would, with the right advisors, probably do all right, but I think he'd be more likely to miss stuff/put his foot in something than Clinton would. On the other hand, we'd absolutely know that TTIP was dead, which would be reassuring. Clinton has come out against it now, but I do worry that she'd be ok with some slightly-different version. But then it seems very much Obama's baby, so maybe she wouldn't feel compelled to keep it alive.
posted by emjaybee at 9:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The answer Webb COULD have given: "Anderson, I think you and I have very different definitions of 'enemy.' I've been in war. I've known violence. And if I'm not at that point of life-or-death violence, then everything else is just an argument and we can work things out."

Imagine how much more respect he'd have gotten from that. He'd still have gotten to drop the "I'm a veteran" card, AND he'd have sounded far more presidential. Instead, we got...this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:45 PM on October 13, 2015 [43 favorites]


I wouldn't trust internet polls showing Sanders ahead any further than the ones that showed Ron Paul crushing it in 2008 -- the Berniephere is by far the most activist group online, and probably not above flooding polls for the cause. Wait for the scientific polls to see the real effect, if any.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


total derail: litera scripta manet, I just peaked at your profile because of your username. This is my FB cover pic!
posted by numaner at 9:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Chart of speaking time. Chafee had more to complain about than Webb. Or else maybe Webb's complaints were the only reason he got the extra five minutes.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:48 PM on October 13, 2015


Do the candidates learn what all the questions are before a debate? Or do they just know the topics/issues that will be brought up? I've always thought they know all the questions, but every time I actually watch a debate it always seem like they're genuinely surprised by some of the questions.
posted by numaner at 9:49 PM on October 13, 2015


Chafee had more to complain about than Webb.

well half of Webb's time was spent complaining.
posted by numaner at 9:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I mean, anyone who puts the milk in before the tea should be constitutionally barred from running for office.

Why do you want our leaders to do tea wrong? Some kind of punishment to make them not feel so isolated from the suffering of the average citizen?

posted by Drinky Die at 4:03 AM on October 14 [+] [!]


Eponysterical
posted by Wordshore at 9:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wonder if part of the reason that Webb gave Bernie a free pass on being a contentious objector is that he knows that Bernie has a solid record fighting for Veterans (benefits).
posted by el io at 9:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I know this would never happen, but it would be kind of interesting if we could have a primaries debate between a few candidates from both parties. Maybe Sanders, Clinton, Trump, and ____ (Fill in the blank with Jeb, Rubio, or that Carson guy who is somehow second in the polls.)

I'd really like to see Sanders and Clinton steam roll Trump in a debate, but this pipe dream is the only way I'd feel okay about that happening, because the only other way that would happen is if Trump wins the Republican primary and the thought of that is just...*shudder*

Aside from the entertainment value, it would legitimately be a good way for each party to vet their respective candidates.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:58 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


Yeah, the issue is neither side wants to do anything but play to the base during primary season.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:00 PM on October 13, 2015


So a sort of "melee" approach, litera scripta manet? That would either be the best TV or the worst TV. I'd watch it.
posted by emjaybee at 10:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


On that note, I kinda wanna see a Webb and Huckabee debate and then try not to die from alcohol poisoning.
posted by numaner at 10:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


*I reached my peak level of political involvement in 2004 when I was 16. I put in many, many hours volunteering for Kerry's campaign and watching cable news pretty much nonstop. When Bush was re-elected, I was so devastated and scarred that I still haven't fully recovered, so I have to very carefully modulate my exposure to US politics if I don't want to end up curled up in the fetal position having lost the will to live.

The first political campaign I seriously volunteered for was Howard Dean's. You can understand why it took me a good long while to get back into politics after that.

Also why I can't get myself too into Bernie. Some very smart part of my unconscious brain now sees funny-looking left-of-center presidential candidates from Vermont as being basically equivalent to feeder rats. Sure, their silly hijinks and their funny little faces may be charming, but it's vitally important to never become emotionally attached. Because, well, it doesn't end well for them.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:23 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]




I love Sanders policies 100%, but he's not great at politics - that's kind of endearing, but I fear ultimately problematic. His position on guns is fine, tighten up some regulation, pretty middle of the road stuff, but talking about mental health and pandering to his rural constituents was a mistake - it seemed defensive, and he has no reason to be. The foreign policy stuff was just a trainwreck, he needs to get a handle on that shit. There aren't any great answers in Syria, so it's tough, but he needs something other than stammering. I'm really sad that he allows himself to get bogged down in the 'are you a capitalist or a socialist' bullshit - it's a bullshit question, quibbling over labels doesn't help him, but he's really opened the door to this shallow, pedantic distraction. Also the Revolution rhetoric just makes him sound like a Ron Paulish whack-o, I wish he'd cut it out. All Clinton had to do was not fuck up, and she accomplished that; She successfully inoculated herself from any real debate by the 11th hour policy adjustments and Sanders let her have foreign policy, sure they hammered her on Iraq for a couple of minutes, but somehow a big chunk of the democratic electorate gives her a Mulligan on that, so it doesn't look good for our hero. He successfully moved the Overton window in the right direction I think, and that's a good thing.
posted by Colby_Longhorn at 10:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]




Frank Lutz ran that focus group. I trust him... To have the interests of the Republican party (or a self-serving subset of that), not much else.
posted by el io at 11:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


When was Webb a Republican?

How about when he endorsed George W. Bush for President in 2000?
posted by JackFlash at 11:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


15 years isn't long enough to rub off that stink.
posted by JackFlash at 11:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]




When was Webb a Republican?

Never. Webb is like the mirror opposite of Chafee. Both are pre-Southern Strategy throwbacks, except that Chafee actually found a party to switch to. Webb is stuck as a Democrat because, even as a holdover Solid South Democrat, he's still far too liberal for the current Republican party.
posted by Panjandrum at 11:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Jim Webb’s Crazy Debate Answer About Killing a Guy Has an Even Crazier Backstory
posted by homunculus


Jesus Fucking Christ. He was seriously in the shit and is actually kind of a goddamned hero, even if he should by no means be in charge of the country that's some insanely hardass shit right there. 20/20 hindsight his comment now reads as PTSD and accompanying inclination to talk about it a little too much/inappropriately as a means of processing the pain and the guilt.

Mostly I just hope he's, like, doing okay on a day-to-day basis.
posted by Ryvar at 12:30 AM on October 14, 2015 [12 favorites]


CNN vs. Reality
posted by ob1quixote at 1:28 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


You just referred to a click-here-on-our-website-to-tell-us-what-you-think poll as "reality."
posted by straight at 1:33 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


That's the title of the image. Save it for the uploader.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:08 AM on October 14, 2015


Here's a link to the CNN Facebook app for anyone as curious as I was.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:13 AM on October 14, 2015


even in rinky-dink local level races, online polls are a measure of which campaign is better at figuring out how to vote multiple times rather than a measure of popular support. that said, they sometimes are useful for assessing the state of the race, because all else being equal the candidates with the best/most subtle hackers are more likely to win the election.

also if you live in a state or municipality where there's political blogs with decent comments sections, most of the really informed partisan comments come from people paid by one campaign or another. It's not 1995 anymore; smart campaigns take Internet management real seriously.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:46 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


BOVESPA?

once a night for bovine insomnia.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:12 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]




Gotta admire Webb for such a very, very special, USMC approved, definition of "Enemy".
posted by buzzman at 5:05 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


I can't tell what exactly this thing is that Garance Franke-Ruta is showing us, but she says that the Republican National Committee is pushing the line that Bernie won the debate.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:32 AM on October 14, 2015


The media seems to be giving it to Clinton:

Is there some sort of hyperbole contest going on in the media? I have to assume so, and the prize must be a big one, because yikes those are some over-the-top headlines.

Even if you think Clinton won this debate, nothing she said was close to "magic", nor "crush[ing] it", nor was she "towering" over anyone on policy. Her biggest accomplishment was simply not fumbling the ball, given how far ahead she is. Is that good for her? Yes. Does that warrant those headlines? Not even close.
posted by tocts at 5:43 AM on October 14, 2015 [13 favorites]


Bernie is my guy, and I think he did fine, but Hillary certainly got the lion's share of the spotlight. It felt like her debate to win or lose, so even if you think she did the latter, she was the alpha in that group. FOX News and the like are of course going to say Sanders won, because they will do anything and everything to damage Hillary every chance they get.
posted by zardoz at 5:46 AM on October 14, 2015




Biggest surprise for me tonight has been Clinton and Sanders kinda sorta weirdly really getting along and playing off of each other in odd moments. It's... cute, actually.

IKR? Running mates! C'mon, guys! C'mon!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:10 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


FOX News and the like are of course going to say Sanders won, because they will do anything and everything to damage Hillary every chance they get.

Am I just too partisan, or does this strike everyone else as a terrible plan? Sure, I can see the angle of dividing the Dems, but is that not cancelled out by the media exposure (for both candidates and for the Dem positions in general) of a protracted horse race? I'd think that a Clinton heading into the general after coasting through the primaries would be in a weaker position than a Clinton who's limbered up and knows better what the Dems want.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:12 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Plus, lots of people were feeling kinda icky about Clinton being the presumptive nominee since like 2012, and having a credible primary opponent can only undermine that angle of attack if she does win the primary. No one can tell her she waltzed right into it then.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:16 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Personally I thought that Clinton did marginally better than Sanders but I thought that they both did well
posted by octothorpe at 6:18 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


You know, we can shittalk the Republicans for having 0 credible candidates, but we only BARELY have more than 0 credible candidates, hi Chafee
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:22 AM on October 14, 2015


I wonder if Bernie would take a job in a Clinton White House?
posted by Chrysostom at 6:27 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Biggest surprise for me tonight has been Clinton and Sanders kinda sorta weirdly really getting along and playing off of each other in odd moments.

It would be weirder to me if they pretended that they were mortal enemies like the Republican candidates do instead of former Senate colleagues who reportedly get along quite well ever since Mr. Clinton's first campaign for president in 1992.

I feel like there's this assumption that Hillary Clinton doesn't get along with anyone. Pundits acted so surprised when she got on well with Obama in his cabinet. They were surprised that she gets along well with Elizabeth Warren. It's almost like she's not actually a psycho hosebeast bent on power at all costs...
posted by muddgirl at 6:29 AM on October 14, 2015 [32 favorites]


I think that what Fox News and the Republicans are trying to do is to make the point that Bernie Sanders truly represents the Democrats. See: we told you that they were draft-dodging pinkos. Or how about: you say we're all unhinged extremists because of Donald Trump, but you're just as bad because of Bernie Sanders! I don't think it's going to work for them, but they're desperate, so they'll try it.

My sense is that what's going on is more that Bernie is rehabilitating the reputation of socialism than that being a self-proclaimed socialist is hurting him. The Cold War is over, much as some people seem to want to keep it alive.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:29 AM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]




I feel like there's this assumption that Hillary Clinton doesn't get along with anyone. Pundits acted so surprised when she got on well with Obama in his cabinet. They were surprised that she gets along well with Elizabeth Warren. It's almost like she's not actually a psycho hosebeast bent on power at all costs...

Oh that's definitely not why it surprised me that they were getting along - Bernie was acting really defensive for a while and Clinton was pretty stiff for the first part of the debate and then boom, they started joking around and it was like an adorable ray of sunshine that loosened both of them up. It was surprising to me because it looked like they both genuinely enjoyed laughing with each other and they both felt more natural after the cracks appeared in their debate armor, usually you don't see that on a presidential debate stage.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:43 AM on October 14, 2015 [11 favorites]




Mother Jones: No, Hillary, Edward Snowden Didn't Have Whistleblower Protections

She has to know this, but said it anyway because it probably tests well among uninformed voters in the focus group world. Anderson Cooper's idiotic, must-get-all-these-questions-in "HERO OR TRAITOR!" framing didn't help, but the speed with which Hillary jumped to obvious lying about Snowden was really disappointing.
posted by mediareport at 6:50 AM on October 14, 2015 [11 favorites]


I confess that I did not watch, so I was basing that on the news coverage today.
posted by muddgirl at 6:52 AM on October 14, 2015


Bernie's almost incoherent answer on Snowden wasn't much better.
posted by mediareport at 6:52 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Weird seeing a version of American politics where everyone is an adult.
posted by Artw at 6:58 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The debate made my right wing conservative mom consider Sanders bc she hates all the Rs as well as HRC.

I'm still in shock
posted by sio42 at 6:59 AM on October 14, 2015 [15 favorites]


Charlie Pierce:
Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton: Together they won the debate, because last night it really hit me what a great pair they make. He is forcing her to talk about income inequality and campaign finance reform, she is taking his anger and turning it into something more palatable. Time and again, Sanders serves up the Howard Beale moments, and Clinton translates them into smooth talking points. Sanders gets you upset about a problem, Clinton convinces you she can fix it. I remain unconvinced that Sanders can get elected— we are not going to elect a socialist in America in 2015— but the longer he stays in the race, the more he reveals the concerns of the disaffected voter who is not crazy enough to vote Republican, the more Hillary can run on those concerns in a more appetizing way. They need each other. We need them.

Predictions: O'Malley sails onto Clinton's ticket, they face Trump and Vivica A. Fox next November.
posted by octothorpe at 7:08 AM on October 14, 2015 [10 favorites]


My sense is that what's going on is more that Bernie is rehabilitating the reputation of socialism than that being a self-proclaimed socialist is hurting him.

Maybe eight years of 'Obama is a socialist!' only served to make people think 'well, socialism isn't THAT bad then'
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 AM on October 14, 2015 [31 favorites]


The debate made my right wing conservative mom consider Sanders bc she hates all the Rs as well as HRC.

I know a woman who works for FOX News and is apparently a Bernie supporter. I wish I knew her better so I could ask her how the hell that works.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:16 AM on October 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


I know the inherent appearance of appearing sexist when I ask this, but does anyone know who designed the outfit Hillary was wearing? I ask because I very much like the cut of that Aline over shirt thing, and want to know who is designing for that figure profile, as I too am officially matronly in physicality.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:19 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


The word in Iowa is that Bernie has totally taken the wind out of Rand Paul's sails, because all the Paul supporters have defected to Sanders. I don't know how that works, but apparently there are a lot of people who are more anti-establishment than ideological, and they don't care that much about the anti-establishment candidate's actual positions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:20 AM on October 14, 2015 [15 favorites]


So just out of curiosity, did anyone else use last night to donate to their candidate of choice? Seemed like a good occasion.
posted by mediareport at 7:22 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


(Plus, if debates regularly lead to increased donations, maybe we can shove aside assholes like DNC head Debbie Wasserman Schulz and get more of them. Seriously, if you haven't read how she decided the number of Dem debates by personal fiat, with no discussion or vote *among DNC execs*, and then banned from attending a DNC vice president who dared to publicly question her decision, you really should.)
posted by mediareport at 7:27 AM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


I still don't see the logic of the O'Malley as veep thing. What does he bring to the ticket? He doesn't have a bunch of his own dedicated supporters, his state is a lock for the Dems, he's not particularly helpful regionally either (like if he were from the West or South), his rep as rising star has considerably dimmed over the past few years. He's a white guy, but if you aren't going to vote for HRC due to gender, I don't see that sealing the deal.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:29 AM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


I still don't see the logic of the O'Malley as veep thing.

Well, what he wants and what makes sense don't necessarily coincide.

But whatever his reasons, more people know his name now than they did 24 hours ago and he didn't talk about accidentally voting for terrible things or literally killing people, so I'd say this debate was probably a net plus for him regardless of the outcome of this particular election. After all, he's only 52, and we don't exactly have a deep bench here. Seems more like he's gearing up for O'Malley 2020/2024.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:33 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sorry, have mostly forgotten his existence already.
posted by Artw at 7:35 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The word in Iowa is that Bernie has totally taken the wind out of Rand Paul's sails, because all the Paul supporters have defected to Sanders. I don't know how that works, but apparently there are a lot of people who are more anti-establishment than ideological, and they don't care that much about the anti-establishment candidate's actual positions.

I'm seeing this a lot among conservative friends and family. The common refrain is that he's "no-bullshit" and that they appreciate that regardless of his politics. His gun position helps too.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:36 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Biggest national security threat is climate change?

What else is going to displace millions of Americans by literally destroying the cities they live in? People don't want to hear it, but we have already inundated several entire metropolitan areas, even if we stop all carbon emissions tomorrow. The house I'm living in right now will be a block from the beach on a new Florida Key and my SO's childhood home half an hour north will be at the southern end of the mainland. If we drastically cut emissions. Otherwise, everything south of Palm Beach County will be underwater in a century or two.

Yet the building (and carbon emissions) continue apace because some fuckheads don't believe that ice melts.
posted by wierdo at 7:41 AM on October 14, 2015 [21 favorites]


Yeah, I get why O'Malley is really *running* for veep. I just don't get all the analysis that posits Hillary actually selecting him.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:42 AM on October 14, 2015


Having George W. "no bullshit" Bush as president for eight years really gave me an appreciation for the value of bullshitting.

The president is supposed to be a statesman and diplomat. And not just in international contexts (though that it very important to me; that's how we avoid wars.) She or he also needs to negotiate with Congress, making the horse trades and compromises necessary to actually get laws passed.

The ability to bullshit smoothly and fluently is a necessary requirement of the job, it seems to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:47 AM on October 14, 2015 [8 favorites]


(Huh. I read setting about DNC VP Tulsa Gabbana claiming she was banned after complaining in one of the links posted early in the thread here, but can't find it again, and Schulze denies it, so that part may be off. The rest, about Schulz's absurdly autocratic decision, stands.)
posted by mediareport at 7:53 AM on October 14, 2015




I read setting about DNC VP Tulsa Gabbana claiming she was banned after complaining in one of the links posted early in the thread here, but can't find it again, and Schulze denies it, so that part may be off.

It's Tulsi Gabbard, and she's still saying she was "disinvited".
posted by Etrigan at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]




They are only incompetent losers because of all the damn RINOs! Attack, attack, attack!
posted by Artw at 8:15 AM on October 14, 2015


OK, as someone living in Rhode Island during his term as governor, I will say that Lincoln Chaffee is a very smart, committed person. Unfortunately, he comes off as kind of an egghead.

If he hadn't said "Metric system" a few weeks ago, Chaffee's participation might have served to introduce a healthy shot of talk-about-the-issues to the Dem race…but then again, he probably wants to talk the issues to death, so maybe that wouldn't have been so great.

*sigh* I wish he was just our Senator again.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:16 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The media seems to be giving it to Clinton:

The pro-establishment, corporate media supporting HRC? Whooda thunk?!
posted by entropicamericana at 8:19 AM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


OK, as someone living in Rhode Island during his term as governor, I will say that Lincoln Chaffee is a very smart, committed person. Unfortunately, he comes off as kind of an egghead.

In fairness to Chafee, he does seem to be better on the Latin American Left than even Bernie Sanders.

On that note:
*looks anderson cooper dead in the eye*

"the sandinistas were the good guys in nicaragua, you piece of shit"
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:32 AM on October 14, 2015 [14 favorites]


If Don Lemon can only ask about black people and Juan Carlos Lopez can only ask about Hispanics, Wolf Blitzer only gets to ask about wolves
posted by growabrain at 8:33 AM on October 14, 2015 [22 favorites]


Yeah, as someone noted above, the Beltway political class reporting this morning is absurdly fawning groupthink.

And thanks, Etrigan, for that confirming link about Gabbard being banned (the name thing was my damn phone's auto correct thinking I was talking fashion or something; I obviously didn't proof that comment before posting, grrr.) The DNC behavior here - decision by fiat, no discussion or vote - is disgusting.
posted by mediareport at 8:35 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


If Don Lemon can only ask about black people and Juan Carlos Lopez can only ask about Hispanics, Wolf Blitzer only gets to ask about wolves

I dunno. After his infamous Jeopardy! appearance, Blitzer should probably avoid any gig that requires him to say things in the form of a question.

(Nevar forget.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:49 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


O'Malley's not running for veep. He's running for (pick one) 2020/2024. That's why he's staking out a bunch of positions that seem surprisingly left for a middle-of-the-road type. He's calculated that the country on the whole is going to be left of where it is now on certain issues (most notably, climate), and he's laying the groundwork for being able to say things like "I was arguing for 100% renewable energy by 2050 all the way back in 2015!"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:54 AM on October 14, 2015 [17 favorites]


Why not both?
posted by Going To Maine at 8:58 AM on October 14, 2015


Lessig has about as much right being on stage as Deez Nuts does. He's not running a presidential campaign, he's running a stunt that doesn't actually make much sense in technical terms; his "I'll pass a sweeping campaign finance reform bill and then resign!" schtick is pretty much as sane as the Natural Law Party's promise of saving the economy through assembling crack units of yogic flyers to fix the nation's karma. And his overall politics are such a broad parody of academic naïvety that if he showed up in fiction I'd say the author was laying it on way too thick. Like we're talking a man who blundered a Supreme Court case that was more important to him than anything else in the world because he for reals believed that the Supreme Court didn't play politics and honestly preferred abstract legal reasoning over anything referencing anything real.

And moreover his very academic style is in this context maybe even more offputting than Chafee's awkward lost boy act.1 Whoever's keeping Lessig out of the debate is doing him a huge favor.2

[1]: Lessig is, admittedly, less offputting than James "And Let God Sort Them Out" Webb, but that's neither here nor there.
[2]: Sort of like how whoever let Chafee into the debate is clearly playing a mean prank.

posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:03 AM on October 14, 2015 [11 favorites]


The debate made my right wing conservative mom consider Sanders bc she hates all the Rs as well as HRC.

I'm still in shock


My mom doesn't really follow politics, but she once ruined all the "hey maybe you Americans aren't all bad" goodwill I'd built with my British friend and his mother by suddenly starting to rant about how she was a "war hawk" and "believed in war" while we were just sitting around chilling, and she sometimes likes to rant about Planned Parenthood, so that's where we're coming from. Lately she's started ranting about how company profits need to flow to workers instead of the CEO (she's a cashier at a supermarket), and every time I politely listen until she's done and then say "Spoken like someone who's gonna vote for Bernie Sanders!" and she goes "Oh I don't know who that is" and the conversation ends. I'm hoping one of these days it'll sink in, but maybe I should make her watch the next debate with me. She'd be totally into it I bet.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:21 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wolf Blitzer only gets to ask about wolves

And Blitzen.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:26 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


> The word in Iowa is that Bernie has totally taken the wind out of Rand Paul's sails, because all the Paul supporters have defected to Sanders.

I know you need every vote you can get, but I wish he could just say "Thanks, but no.".

All those Libertarians. *shudder*
posted by benito.strauss at 9:27 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Although his performance was by no means flawless, I am grateful to Anderson Cooper for eschewing the "Show us how much you love Jesus" or "Here's a chance to trash Muslims" lines of questioning that are de rigeur in the GOP debates. Hillary made a few God references (apart from her reliance on the adjective "God-given"), but it was a remarkably deity- and religion-free debate.
posted by carmicha at 9:34 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


WulfBlitzen - a crack squad of Nazi assassins
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:39 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Jim Webb's 2002 Op-Ed Against Invading Iraq

You'll never guess which East Asian superpower get's a mention.

Previously.
posted by homunculus at 9:46 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


That was a perfectly reasonable op-ed. It would be interesting to read similar pieces from the other candidates from around that same time, rather than just hearing what they're saying about it now, with 13 years of hindsight.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:01 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


The word in Iowa is that Bernie has totally taken the wind out of Rand Paul's sails, because all the Paul supporters have defected to Sanders.

This doesn't surprise me at all - that's what happened on reddit too, right? People are making a huge mistake if they classify Sanders along the boring single-axis left-right spectrum. To me, the biggest moments of the debate last night were when he said explicitly that Wall Street regulates Congress and when he said that he faced off with Hank Paulson about the TARP plan. Those points are going to resonate like gangbusters with the disaffected conservatives & libertarians I know.

For conservatives whose votes aren't driven primarily by social issues, Sanders really does have quite a lot to offer, and I really believe his slightly more rural-friendly gun positions could make a huge difference in the libertarian West. There is no shortage of single-issue gun voters who profoundly distrust the establishment - both government and corporations - out here, many of whom don't even care that much about social issues, and a lot of those voters would be much easier to peel away from the Republicans if they weren't so easily misled about the Dems taking their guns away.
posted by dialetheia at 10:03 AM on October 14, 2015 [14 favorites]


Sanders, like Trump and Paul, exists on the "extreme vs. moderate" axis. To grossly oversimplify:
  • Trump: “More social services, the rich are terrible (but I'm great), no taxes for anyone and no immigrants.”
  • Paul: “Taxes are terrible, keep your guns”
  • Sanders: “more social services, the rich are terrible and should be taxed - but not you, and keep your guns.”
posted by Going To Maine at 10:16 AM on October 14, 2015


Lessig has about as much right being on stage as Deez Nuts does.

God I would have paid like $200 to see this honestly
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:20 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Lessig has about as much right being on stage as Deez Nuts does.

Well, if we're letting them in, I hope there's a podium the right size for Limberbutt McCubbins too.
posted by jackbishop at 10:25 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Kickstarter for Lessig vs. Nutz debate
posted by rhizome at 10:41 AM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


'if this coffee bring me tea. if this is tea bring me coffee' - a. lincoln
posted by judson at 10:42 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


'if this is water or wine, bring me turpentine.' — a. lincoln.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:56 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Sanders, like Trump and Paul, exists on the "extreme vs. moderate" axis. To grossly oversimplify:
Trump: “More social services, the rich are terrible (but I'm great), no taxes for anyone and no immigrants.”
Paul: “Taxes are terrible, keep your guns”
Sanders: “more social services, the rich are terrible and should be taxed - but not you, and keep your guns.”
posted by Going To Maine at 10:16 AM on October 14 [+] [!]


Alternately, the two popular ideologies in America right now are socialism and fascism, with "mainstream" market liberalism coming in a very distant third among ordinary people, despite its popularity with the ruling classes who benefit from it and despite liberal dominance over our political institutions and media.

Sanders' moderate social democratic stances and Trump's open support for the unification of corporate and government power under the rule of a charismatic strongman represent the real views of the majority finally coming to the surface. This is happening now in part due to the waning of mass media and the rise of social media, and in part due to the neoliberal dismantlement of the social welfare programs that (slightly) moderated the market's worst excesses, which in turn generated a slightly broader base of support for market liberalism.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:03 PM on October 14, 2015 [25 favorites]


Kickstarter for Lessig vs. Nutz debate

No need, wrong platform. #Twitterbate2016
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:05 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Frank Lutz ran that focus group. I trust him... To have the interests of the Republican party (or a self-serving subset of that), not much else.

It wasn't just the Luntz focus group - as far as I've seen, every focus group has said that Sanders 'won' (including CNN's own). The same is true for everybody I've talked to about the debate so far, and I live in Montana - not exactly a liberal hotbed.

I get that people are going to dismiss online polls because they don't think online engagement matters, but the fact that Sanders won all of the dumb polls and also 'won' all the focus groups is what makes the media's unilateral declaration that Clinton won so ludicrous. They are so clearly responding to their own narrative kool-aid - "she did so much better than we expected her to, therefore she won." They would have written the same thing no matter what happened, short of Clinton saying she killed a man or that she voted wrong on a crucial bill because her dad died.
posted by dialetheia at 12:09 PM on October 14, 2015 [11 favorites]


No need, wrong platform. #Twitterbate2016

Why wait till 2016? I do that every day.
posted by rifflesby at 12:09 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Looking at the odds the day after to see where people are putting their money now, no surprises. Hillary shortens and remains rock solid favorite, and Bernie shortens too. No-show-Joe continues to lengthen, as does just about everyone else. Chafee is now out to 200/1 indicating he's attracting not even fun or hopelessly partisan bets. O'Malley and Webb are in the range 50/1 to 100/1; Elizabeth Warren a little shorter.

There seems to be a slight shortening of odds for Amy Klobuchar to be the Democrat candidate at a few bookmakers, but the odds are still quite long, indicating small bets.
posted by Wordshore at 12:12 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


seriously though are there actually people in America in 2015 who think American media analysis bears any relation whatsoever to reality? I thought it was commonly agreed that they're basically equivalent to what Pravda was, back in the day.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:13 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Washington Post zeroes in on the real issues:

"Hillary Clinton's debate performance complicates Biden's path"
posted by rhizome at 12:13 PM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


Chafee is now out to 200/1 indicating he's attracting not even fun or hopelessly partisan bets.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO SHORT CHAFEE.

if it's possible to short chafee I might actually be able to pay off my student loans maybe.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:14 PM on October 14, 2015


I get that people are going to dismiss online polls because they don't think online engagement matters

People dismiss that kind* of online poll because they're radically nonrandom samples and don't offer the demographic information you'd need to do a compensatory reweight after the fact. You should dismiss that kind of online polls too, even when you like what they say, because they're utterly uninformative.

Sure, the media are being pinheads; you can tell this because they're covering politics. But who won doesn't matter in any case, so it's not really worth getting worked up about the media being pinheads. About the only nontrivial lasting effect these debates have is, maybe, if someone offers a performance so poor that it's downright aberrant; maybe Perry in 2012 fits there? Otherwise they're almost totally irrelevant.

*There exist ways to do valid polling online but they are way more complicated.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:27 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


There'll be real actual poll results in like two days anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:33 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Alternately, the two popular ideologies in America right now are socialism and fascism, with "mainstream" market liberalism coming in a very distant third among ordinary people...

This whole 'socialist' thing is getting obnoxious. Sanders may self identify as a socialist (actually, he compares himself to European social democrats), but we'd need the balance of power in Congress to undergo a complete upheaval to get policies anywhere close to those of FDR or LBJ let alone actual 'socialism.'

Reinstitution of Glass-Steagall, proper taxation of corporations and robust government support for cheap public education at the university level is hardly socialism. In fact, those policies existed during the goddamned Red Scare. This talking point is a tiresome bugaboo.

The policies a Sanders administration might actually deliver, and what I think his more realistic supporters are hoping a more likely Clinton administration might adopt in order to consolidate the base, would do little more than put the 'liberal' back in 'market liberalism' (and the 'law' back in 'rule of law') instead of what we have to today which is basically just the rule of markets and corporate interests.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:34 PM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


oh, certainly, Sanders is a bog standard mainstream social democrat, despite his pretentions to being a democratic socialist. I believe in this case though the populace of the United States consists largely of people either well to Sanders' left or well to Trump's right.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:38 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]




certainly, Sanders is a bog standard mainstream social democrat, despite his pretentions to being a democratic socialist.

Is he in the Judaean People's Front or the People's Front of Judaea?
posted by Chrysostom at 12:46 PM on October 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


the former.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:50 PM on October 14, 2015


and let me tell you they're a pack of splitters.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:50 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


You should dismiss that kind of online polls too, even when you like what they say, because they're utterly uninformative.

I do appreciate the way you took that part of my sentence out of context when the point was the actual focus groups, which you didn't address, but OK. I still disagree, anyway; those obviously-unscientific polls aren't completely uninformative, they just don't capture what people think they capture. They are measuring enthusiasm among a certain group of people (usually internet-savvy young people) and while they obviously don't represent the entire electorate by any means, they are still a fairly useful barometer of online engagement and enthusiasm. If Clinton had won all of those polls by that wide of a margin, we'd be seeing stories about how strong her online presence is, not breathless dismissals of their entire value.

I think it's so interesting how all of Sanders's support online is treated as a complete joke, like none of it could ever possibly matter, even after Obama's success in 2008. That online support is how he was able to amass a million donations faster than any other campaign in history, pulling in $26 million in three months with an average donation around $30 (and $1.3 million just last night).
posted by dialetheia at 1:18 PM on October 14, 2015 [10 favorites]


The last time we had a Democratic primary, social media barely even existed. Nobody can honestly claim to know how this primary is gonna go based on previous ones - we can guess, but an educated guess is as close as anybody can come right now.

God damn I wish I could turn off the part of my brain that cares about this until at least, like, March
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:28 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


> I think it's so interesting how all of Sanders's support online is treated as a complete joke, like none of it could ever possibly matter ...

I agree with you about on-line polls measurning enthusiasm in certain groups. But if I'm looking for analogues for candidates whose backers kill in on-line polls, Ron Paul is who I think of first, not Obama. I've got no idea which Sanders is like.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Looked up the numbers because I made myself curious - so in May 2008, 73% of American adults used the internet and 29% of them used social media; in January 2014, 87% of American adults used the internet and 74% of them used social media. There's no way this number has decreased since then.

So we've gone from around 21% of the country to over 64% of the country on social media between the last Democratic primary and this one. (In 2012 it was about 52%.)

How this change will shape the course of the primary remains to be seen, but I think it's going to wind up mattering a whole hell of a lot, and arguably already has.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:40 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


I do appreciate the way you took that part of my sentence out of context when the point was the actual focus groups, which you didn't address

I don't know or care very much about focus groups. They seem a poor substitute for the central limit theorem, but people who seem to be savvy seem to be able to extract information from them. I care a little about misinformation from atrocious sample design; nobody should draw inferences from that kind of online poll.

they just don't capture what people think they capture

What they capture -- or what population they're drawing from -- is unclear enough that they really don't say anything, especially since you don't know what (if any) protection the media outlets took against trivial scripted clickers. They're as devoid of information as the phone-in polls they mostly replaced.

If Clinton had won all of those polls by that wide of a margin, we'd be seeing stories about how strong her online presence is, not breathless dismissals of their entire value.

Probably, because the media have to report something, even about events that don't really matter (like almost all campaign events), because their jobs depend on having things to report on a frequent basis. They'd still be full of shit, though.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:46 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


ArbitraryAndCapricious: The word in Iowa is that Bernie has totally taken the wind out of Rand Paul's sails

I was set to discount this as sort of a minor thing, but the esteemed junior Senator from Kentucky does sort of seem like he's suffering from some electile dysfunction lately:
Paul did not seem too amused when he answered those who used a Google search to ask whether he was still running for president.

"I don't know. I wouldn't be doing this dumbass live streaming if I weren't. So yes, I still am running for president, get over it."

"This is live, we can't edit this right?" Paul continued.

Even though Paul's campaign touted the live stream as a way to get behind-the-scenes access to Paul, the senator himself didn't really seem to understand why it was being done.

Asked by a reporter why he was live-streaming the entire day, Paul said that he wasn't quite sure.

"I wish I knew," he said. "I've been saying, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this and now we're doing this," he said, according to The Washington Post.
Youtube clip of the live stream.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:56 PM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm of two minds about the online polling (aside from script bombing). Yes, they measure enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is good, insofar as it translates into donations, and working for campaigns to get out the vote. Enthusiasm is not meaningful, insofar as it doesn't, because an enthused vote counts the same as a "hold your nose" vote.

As the campaign saying does, "Yard signs don't vote."
posted by Chrysostom at 2:08 PM on October 14, 2015


""I wish I knew," he said. "I've been saying, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this and now we're doing this..."

In which Rand Paul finally connects with voter sentiment.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:15 PM on October 14, 2015 [12 favorites]


Re: Hillary not wearing an American Flag pin. She has an artistically done American flag tattoo above her left breast. She asked me to never disclose...
posted by X4ster at 2:26 PM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Re: Hillary not wearing an American Flag pin. She has an artistically done American flag tattoo above her left breast. She asked me to never disclose...

I was gonna ask when we'd have our first tatted-up president but apparently it most likely already happened
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:30 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Spitting on Vietnam veterans? I'm a VietVet and I say BS. My draft commitment ended in July 1968. I left Cu Chi, flew from Tan Son Nhut airbase to Travis AFB California, as was standard at the time. Processed from military to civilian at Oakland Army Depot less than 48 hours after being under enemy fire. In the only clothes I had - a brand new Army uniform - I took a cab to my sister's place just a couple blocks away from Sather Gate in Berkeley CA. Killing time while waiting for my sister to get home I walked around on Telegraph Ave. I was treated well and was asked about joining Veterans Against the War. Nothing hateful, no yelling, no spitting. The most negative thing I experienced was having guys asking me for spare change. Mostly it seemed that people were afraid of skinny little me. My sister got me some civilian clothes and I moved on.
posted by X4ster at 2:45 PM on October 14, 2015 [19 favorites]


It’s Time for Democrats to Stop Freaking Out About 2016
The truth is, Sanders has offered Clinton — and Democrats — a million gifts so far this season. Among the most valid fears was that Hillary’s candidacy would go unchallenged, would proceed as a coronation. But the senator from Vermont has already ensured that this won’t be the case. He is a serious challenger, a smart and good man who is probably going to beat her in early states, and perhaps beyond. This is not bad news for Hillary. As tonight’s debate showed, it’s great news. It means there's someone to keep her on her game; no Hillary is worse than a coasting Hillary. It means an engaged electorate and candidates who need to pay attention to the direction in which their party’s voters want to go.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:28 PM on October 14, 2015 [8 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: Hillary Clinton Won Because of a Lack of Fucks to Give - "You could look at the entire debate as a model for what the nation needs when it comes its political discussions. While the Republican debate stage was given over to petty personality conflicts, dick size comparisons, and whatever the fuck Donald Trump or Ben Carson just mouth-farted, in Las Vegas, at this debate, the focus was almost entirely on issues. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:41 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


MSNBC's sandwich comparisons are insane.
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on October 14, 2015




“Forget the debate: Two simple reasons a Republican will likely win in 2016,” Clifford Young and Julia Clark, Reuters, 14 October 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 4:38 PM on October 14, 2015


Why are we so confident, especially when opinion poll data now gives Hillary Clinton the edge over most Republican opponents? The simple answer is that we’re relying on models, not polls.

Oh that's interesting are you Nate Silver?
posted by Artw at 4:44 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


From the Reuters link:
Modeling results is a simple concept: look at past data, identify patterns, and use those patterns to make predictions. So we begin by aggregating data from past U.S. presidential elections, but are immediately hampered by the fact that there aren’t very many elections to work from — 25 if we go back 100 years.

So we created a much larger database of elections by looking beyond the United States to hundreds of presidential and parliamentary elections in democratic countries around the world. This exercise gave us far more data to work with: a sample size of more than 450 elections from 35 countries.
Something something apples and oranges...
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:54 PM on October 14, 2015


As long as we're modeling things, I'd like to remind Young and Clark that, barring incumbent presidents and sitting vice-presidents, no Republican has won the popular vote for the presidency in 35 years.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:07 PM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Huckabee: “Political correctness has run amok in this country! Last night during the ‪#‎DemDebate‬ I said, ‘I trust Bernie Sanders with my tax dollars like I trust a North Korean chef with my Labrador.’ Now the liberal media is attacking me. Leave it to liberals to ignore injustices and atrocities of a totalitarian nation on human beings and put more importance on a nation’s diet which includes grass clippings and canines. Facts: North Koreans eat dog and Bernie Sanders wants to spend 18 trillion dollars of your money. What’s so hard to understand? Poor liberals, no sense of humor and no sense of reality.”

lol, remember when this guy used to affect folksy charm?
posted by Drinky Die at 5:13 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


Elections are not mysterious events subject to the whimsy of unpredictable candidates and voters. They’re actually highly predictable, with a set of variables that influence outcomes in familiar ways.

Because of that, we can say, with reasonable confidence, that a Republican will be moving into the White House in 2017.

That conclusion is based on the results of a data model we created


Translation: We overfit data to a model based mostly on how people have voted in countries other than the United States, to write a piece of clickbait.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:15 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


He's going for the angry Facebook comment vote.
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


My model says that Americans vote for the most awful thing or the most shiny thing, and predicts a clear Trump victory, but for the most part I pulled it out of my ass.
posted by Artw at 5:16 PM on October 14, 2015


This exercise gave us far more data to work with: a sample size of more than 450 elections from 35 countries.

How many of those countries only have two viable political parties?
posted by aubilenon at 5:17 PM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


He's going for the angry Facebook comment vote.

Which, to be fair, seems to be playing a role in the Republican primary. The quickest way to the top is to say angry weird hateful shit and not be Jeb Bush.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:18 PM on October 14, 2015


Poor old JEB?, it seemed like his time...
posted by Artw at 5:21 PM on October 14, 2015


Presumably their model also predicted Michael Dukakis's victory over G.H.W Bush since Ronald Reagan's approvals were below 50%, worse than Obama, leading up to the election.
posted by JackFlash at 5:28 PM on October 14, 2015


Spitting on Vietnam veterans? I'm a VietVet and I say BS.

"It never happened to me, therefore it never happened to anyone!" You're sure that's the stance you want to take? You didn't die over there either, but I have a feeling that you're not willing to argue that it didn't happen to anyone else.

I'm glad it didn't happen to you. I, on the other hand, know Vietnam vets who say it did happen to them. In a different generation, I got called a fascist on more than one occasion when I was just walking down the street in my uniform, and we weren't engaged in any wars at the time. I don't pretend that every service member has been called a fascist, though, because my experience isn't universal.
posted by Etrigan at 5:33 PM on October 14, 2015


You are really missing the context there. There is a myth around spitting on veterans that implies they came home to massive hatred and vitriol from anti-war opponents instead of the parades for previous veterans. That is the BS. Has a vet been spit on? Sure, I bet, so have a bunch of retail workers I know, but it's not a social trend. His "I walked into areas where anti-war sentiment was extremely high and got nothing," is pretty good anecdotal evidence that hatred was not the trend.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:44 PM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Huckabee has long since passed from the stage where you raise money so you can run for office to the stage where you run for office so you can raise money. It's one of the less pretty developmental stages for a right-wing politico.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:20 PM on October 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


He may not believe in evolution, but devolution is in his genes.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:34 PM on October 14, 2015


His "I walked into areas where anti-war sentiment was extremely high and got nothing," is pretty good anecdotal evidence that hatred was not the trend.

No. It’s evidence of an afternoon. I mean, my impression is that spitting also wasn’t the general attitude but this anecdote is hardly evidence of a “trend”.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:41 PM on October 14, 2015


I said it was anecdotal evidence against a trend, not evidence of a trend.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:59 PM on October 14, 2015


Respectfully, could we drop the Vietnam thing? It's not super germane to the thread topic.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:00 PM on October 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


[Somewhat less respectfully: drop the Vietnam thing, please. It's a derail at this point. Thanks. ]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:04 PM on October 14, 2015 [8 favorites]


ROU_Xenophobe: "Wolf Blitzer only gets to ask about wolves

And Blitzen.
"

Nopes. Only wolves that attack in fast, fearless masses.
posted by Samizdata at 7:45 PM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The night reverberates with their endless howling of softball questions at minor celebrities...
posted by Artw at 7:57 PM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


Last night during the ‪#‎DemDebate‬ I said, ‘I trust Bernie Sanders with my tax dollars like I trust a North Korean chef with my Labrador.’

Wow, the minute I saw that tweet I figured it would be deleted within 3 minutes. When it survived for 3 minutes, I thought surely it would be gone by the next morning, when someone woke up and came to their senses.

Really no way I would have ever guessed he would be doubling-down on it with a longer article explaining and expanding upon the execrable/racist 'reasoning' behind literally every word of the tweet in excruciating detail.

TL;DR: My psychopathometer is way off today . . .
posted by flug at 8:41 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]




Another thought; while I agree that Hilary 'won' this debate, I do wonder how many people changed who they were supporting. Hilary is obviously a better debater.

Hi, me!

Last democratic primary, I was super duper in love with Hillary. She seemed to be the more left, progressive of the two, particularly with her stance on healthcare in 2008. When she spoke, she was ferocious and passionate. I remember hearing her speak during one of the debates and going outside my house in Gainesville and looking up at the night sky and just feeling exhilarated. Goosebumps. I thought, we're finally going to get a female president, but more, get a female president who I love.

Then I went inside and CNN commentators were tearing her apart. I remember that sinking feeling, knowing what would happen.

I got campaign emails last time; I've continued to get them now. And the tone is different. It's weird, falsely chummy ("Hey" has been the subject line of many). I started to feel a little funky about that. And I'm a socialist, really, and my views most closely align with Sanders, but I love Hillary as an institution and a human being so I figured I'd be voting for her.

Maybe.

Maybe I was just primed to have my mind changed, but in so many ways, Hillary's speaking style now leaves me incredibly cold. She is so, so polished that with the exception of when she spoke up about Planned Parenthood, I just didn't feel any of it. She honestly seems defanged, and so much of what she said seemed to be pandering to the middle. Maybe it's what she needs to do to be electable. And she's always been more moderate than me. But . . .

Man, Sanders was a powerful speaker. And politically, we're right in sync. He's angry, like Hillary seemed to be angry in 2008 (but, hey, he's a man so maybe he can get away with it?). But, fuck, I'm angry about America too.

So yeah, I went and donated to his campaign and have jumped ship. I'll gladly vote for Hillary in the general if things end up that way, but it just doesn't seem right to stick with a candidate who is neither really in step with my positions on the issues or really speaks to me, personally.

Sorry Hill.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:51 PM on October 14, 2015 [13 favorites]


I think she definitely pays an angry woman penalty, but she should still unleash it more. The issue in 2008 was just...how do you use anger to knock off Mr. Positive Hope and Change? She can go angry this time because the enemy is still the Republicans more than Bernie. Bernie isn't going to do anything different than he currently has done, making his case on his own terms. Hillary will eventually win this battle. He isn't going to go for her throat, and it would be a bad idea for him to try.

The only person who considered trying for her throat was Chafee and she judo flipped him right off the stage. She shouldn't hold back anything. This is her time to persuade this country to make her our leader, and anger at the extreme right is a big reason why people will support her.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:12 PM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


She should, but I don't know if she will. All the commentary is on how polished, poised, presidential she seems. I don't know if she can afford to let slip that facade. She seems . . . slick. Maybe she took some tips from Bill. I don't know. As someone who has been very emotionally invested in her political career for more than eight years now, it felt unsettling to me. Uncanny valleyish.

Sanders seems to be the favorite among a lot of my FB crowd, so mid-twenties to mid-thirties educated white liberals, the same people who went for Obama last time. Student loan debt is a deeply personal issue for a lot of us, especially as we've started having kids, and it'll be interesting to see what will happen in the early primaries. Clinton was an early favorite last time around, too.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:24 PM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Thoughts on the debate from unhinged right-wing family world:
>Hillary Clinton is bad because she has a screechy voice and should be in prison over Benghazi emails.

>Democrats are bad because they support $15 minimum wage. The Taco Bell across town screwed up my order, and now they want $15 an hour?

>Bernie Sanders is bad because he spent so much time plugging his website instead of debating.

[Objection: But he has to! He doesn't take any money from billionaires and Super PACs! He's funded entirely by regular people!]

>Bernie Sanders is bad because he gets all his money from regular people.

[Objection: wut.]

>Better to get all your money from billionaires than regular people. What, he says they need $15 to survive but then he's shaking them down for cash? Which is it?

[Objection: But candidates funded by the super-rich are beholden to the super-rich!]

>How would it be any different with Bernie Sanders?

[He's not super-rich, or funded by them!]

>Of course he's super-rich, he's a senator.

[Objection: Bernie Sanders is the least wealthy candidate in the race. Also, isn't it troubling that you automatically assume all senators are super-rich?]

>Bernie Sanders is bad because he can't manage his money. Or he's hiding his money.

>Also, Hillary Clinton is bad because she and Bill are super-rich.

[Objection: head_asplode.gif]
posted by Rhaomi at 12:52 AM on October 15, 2015 [9 favorites]


All the commentary is on how polished, poised, presidential she seems. I don't know if she can afford to let slip that facade.

If she can't get angry — at least show some passion that goes beyond just wanting the job handed to her. There's a lot to get legitimately pissed about. Hit the GOP hard about Planned Parenthood and the ACA. Get on Sanders's case about the massacres of Sandy Hook and Charleston. A potential President having an adult conversation about this stuff with the public seems too important an opportunity to pass up.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:59 AM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does Huckabee really want get into family dogs?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:47 AM on October 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Trump has a BIG lead in the Republican primary polls of Nevada and South Carolina. I... I don't see how he loses now unless he completely implodes. Someone please tell me how this can be.
posted by Justinian at 4:02 AM on October 15, 2015


Hillary Clinton is already trying to win the general election. That's the difference between this time and 2008, and it's why she won't (can't) get "angry" or "passionate" about divisive issues like guns and abortions. It's why she seems "slick." She is trying not to generate sound bites for Republican attack ads.

True, elections are won on turn-out, and some passion might help boost her turn out among Democrats. But a soundbite that can be heard as "she wants to take your guns away" or "she supports selling baby parts" will absolutely boost turn out among the GOP base. It would be a gift for them.

Personally, I am passionate about Hillary this time. Her stint as Secretary of State gave me a lot of respect for her (I am one of the those supposedly rare voters who really cares about foreign policy.) I think being Secretary of State, Senator, and First Lady too has to make her one of the most experienced and qualified candidates for office in history. (And naturally that's the bar that a woman has to clear to become president.)

I used to think Hillary was more ambitious than passionate, more about gaining power as an end in itself than using power as a means for making policy changes she cared about. But I feel like the the graceful way she accepted defeat in 2008 shows that to be false, or at least oversimplified. That Why Women Still Can't Have it All article that went around a while ago painted a pretty impressive picture of Secretary Clinton, putting in the hours and doing the damn job, one of the most stressful (and important) jobs in the world, but still trying to show some respect for the work-life-balance needs of the staff working under her.

No, she's not a socialist, but neither am I. I want the a balance of power between government and capitalism so that they can check one another's excesses, and I think Hillary wants that too. I think her record on environmental issues and health care and women's issues is long and consistently good. In spite of her Iraq vote (which I still very much held against her in 2008), I do not think she is a hawk. I think again that her time as Secretary of State showed she has a very deep appreciation for the importance of diplomacy and international cooperation. I respect her for admitting her mistake.

I am way more excited about Hillary this time than I was in 2008. She has proven her character and burnished her qualifications. But also I have grown up, and I now see the value of having a grown-up in the White House. Hillary Clinton is a goddamned grown-up if there ever was one. I get that Bernie's older than her, but he's never been through half of the crap she's has to put up with, and he comes off as naive to me.

New campaign slogan: Hillary Clinton. Vote for the grown-up.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:11 AM on October 15, 2015 [10 favorites]


Trump has a BIG lead in the Republican primary polls of Nevada and South Carolina. I... I don't see how he loses now unless he completely implodes. Someone please tell me how this can be.

He is basically at his polling ceiling and his unfavorables are high. As the field thins, the leftover candidates will eventually overtake him.


This is unless Jeb is the leftover. Jeb has higher unfavorables and the polls show Republicans think he is less electable than Trump. Basically the only way Trump wins is if Jeb makes his way to #2 and does not drop out.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:19 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


I understand that's been the theory for 6 months now but it seems more and more unlikely to me as Trump+Carson's numbers when added together have started hitting 60%.
posted by Justinian at 4:23 AM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well the previous six month theory as I saw it was Jeb! would take over. That's the part that is getting more and more difficult to believe. We will have to see how the numbers go as the Republicans drop. If they DO go to Trump...well...it's gonna be Trump. But I do think he has reached his peak, just based on the unfavorable numbers.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:26 AM on October 15, 2015


The Republican candidate betting markets currently average Bush and Rubio at about the same, roughly 2.5-1, Trump at 4-1, Fiorina at 8-1, Carson at 12-1, and the rest fading away. Badly, in some cases - Santorum is the same 250-1 odds as Sarah Palin at some bookies.
posted by Wordshore at 4:31 AM on October 15, 2015


Well, I'm not a gambling man, but if I was I would be betting the farm against Bush. Look at this.

(1)
(2)
(3)

Rubio is an intriguing name right now.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:49 AM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was sure that JEB! was the default candidate who rise to the top once all of the crazier, flashier candidates faded but I'm not sure I see that now.
posted by octothorpe at 5:17 AM on October 15, 2015


I'm wanting to hold back my doubt because McCain 2008 looked dead in the water and eventually ended up with the nomination but...it's just Jeb! isn't McCain. McCain was spending every day campaigning across Iowa on a bus with a shoestring budget when he was out of it and Jeb! is...I dunno what he is doing? Locked in a room with advisers trying to figure out Donald Trump? Definitely not coordinating with his Super PAC?
posted by Drinky Die at 5:19 AM on October 15, 2015


Yeah, I was saying back in the Republican Debate thread that I felt like JEB! is very unlikely to win, and I still stand by that. He was the presumptive nominee, but through a combination of not seeming to really want it that bad, and also I think a lot of wariness of going back to that particular familial well, he squandered his early leg up. Now he's just the insider's insider as far as the old party elites go, but in a pack full of other insiders and also largely being beaten out by outsiders.

My guess before was Rubio or Kasich, and I still think that's the case.
posted by tocts at 5:26 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


If he had the exact same qualifications and his name wasn't Bush, would anybody have ever assumed he'd run away with the nomination?
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:35 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


People would ask the exact same question of Clinton...

I mean, the answer there is obviously yes, but people are stupid like that.
posted by Artw at 6:03 AM on October 15, 2015


Accidentwlly posted this in the GOP debste thread because it was late and I was a little high:

Im just now getting around to watching the debate and I can't believe that no one else thinks that Martin O'Malley sounds EXACLTY like Will Forte??
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:25 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm glad you said something as it solved a great mystery for us.
posted by Artw at 6:35 AM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm glad you said something as it solved a great mystery for us.


I laughed so hard that I woke the daughter up, and my wife came running into the study. :D
posted by the cydonian at 7:31 AM on October 15, 2015


News: Hillary won the debate!
My friends: Bernie won the debate!
Trump: I won the debate!
Huckabee: Asian people eat dogs!
posted by growabrain at 7:40 AM on October 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


The only person who considered trying for her throat was Chafee and she judo flipped him right off the stage

Thanks for the early morning laugh. That made me think of The Boondocks and wish it was still around (with Aaron McGruder, not that season four crapfest).
posted by fuse theorem at 8:10 AM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I came out of Tuesday's debate thinking it was good for Rubio. He's by far the smoothest talker in the GOP field (even more so than smarty pants Princeton debater Ted Cruz) and comes across as the only one who could hold his/her own against Hillary in a debate setting. To folks not paying close attention, Rubio appears to have a facile grasp of issues and sports a lower buffoon quotient than the rest of the GOP pack. Plus, he's from Florida. He's dangerous.
posted by carmicha at 8:35 AM on October 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


One great example of Hillary being strategic about holding her fire came during the "But the other woman running for President, Carly Fiorina, opposes paid family leave" section. By responding mildly "I'm surprised she would say that because [etc.]..." HRC quickly, neatly and without rancor painted Fiorina as lacking knowledge about the situation in California despite running a big firm there, letting the audience conclude that she's either ignorant or pandering. Then HRC pivoted to Planned Parenthood, choice, women's health, and the hypocrisy of GOP claims vis-a-vis big government = bad. She didn't bother attacking CF, e.g., by pointing out that she ran HP into the ground, so she simultaneously thwarted "cat fight!" excitement and essentially dismissed CF as unworthy of criticism. It was masterful.
posted by carmicha at 8:53 AM on October 15, 2015 [10 favorites]


You know what I think would be super interesting? If we ended up in the general election with Clinton/Castro vs. Rubio/Fiorina (I have no idea how likely this would be).
posted by naoko at 8:57 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Bernie's just looking way better than Clinton in every online poll because he has more online supporters who are able to vote for him a lot, which Clinton doesn't have."

ಠ_ಠ
posted by odinsdream at 8:59 AM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


You know what I think would be super interesting? If we ended up in the general election with Clinton/Castro vs. Rubio/Fiorina (I have no idea how likely this would be).

Sticking with my prediction from nearly a month ago.
posted by Wordshore at 9:02 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]




What's the deal with Huckabee's "[racism is a] sin problem, not a skin problem" line? I just got around to watching Bernie's speech at Liberty, and the guy who ran the Q&A used the exact same phrasing so I'm guessing it's a popular concept in evangelical circles, but I honestly don't quite understand what it means.
posted by naoko at 9:44 AM on October 15, 2015


Regarding the online polls - am I the only one who remembers freeping? It's very easy to game those polls.

The focus groups are another story and much more interesting one, imo.
posted by bgal81 at 9:49 AM on October 15, 2015


naoko, I've never heard that particular line before but I can translate it from the Evangelicalese for you:

"The solution to racism is not to address the structural roots of white supremacy, but to convert to Evangelical Christianity."
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:53 AM on October 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


What's the deal with Huckabee's "[racism is a] sin problem, not a skin problem" line?

It's the same idea as "All lives matter" or "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread", with some amount of bad-apple-ism: being racist is a personal sin, not a systemic problem. Why, just look at all the laws we've enacted to keep people from being racist! Clearly, the problem is just with individual racists, not that we've set up a regime where certain people (who just happen to have different colored skin) are without opportunity or support.
posted by Etrigan at 9:55 AM on October 15, 2015 [8 favorites]


What's the deal with Huckabee's "[racism is a] sin problem, not a skin problem" line? I just got around to watching Bernie's speech at Liberty, and the guy who ran the Q&A used the exact same phrasing so I'm guessing it's a popular concept in evangelical circles, but I honestly don't quite understand what it means.

I’m cynical enough to think that it’s a general enough phrase that it can be used to connote a lot of things, but going by, say, this video and this response to Ferguson, it is, as tivalasvegas has it, that racism can be cured through religion and confessing its evil, not through structural means that result in a broader mix of skin colors.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:56 AM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Larry Wilmore: "I do not like to focus on people's looks but I just can't get past the fact that [Jim Webb] looks like a middle toe"
posted by numaner at 10:13 AM on October 15, 2015




Poor Lincoln Chafee was also cursed with Pat Robertson's ears.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 11:24 AM on October 15, 2015


I bet Sanders sees sees a significant bump in the polls over the next week. He's had a hard time getting the media to take him seriously. There were over 15 million Americans watching the debate and I bet he resonated with lots of people who were unfamiliar with him due to lack of press coverage.
posted by joedan at 11:32 AM on October 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


What's the deal with Huckabee's "[racism is a] sin problem, not a skin problem" line?

I thought it had to do with the Curse of Ham, but then I realized that was Romney's thing. Or maybe David Cameron's, on reflection.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:50 AM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


The great thing about defining stuff as "sin problems" is it means it's on you to work out with God. No role for government there! Just be better people!
posted by Chrysostom at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


I've just shown this video to a couple of more enlightened English people, who commented "Cool! So, he's a liberal; is he to the left or right of Hillary?"

Which is kinda worrying.
posted by Wordshore at 2:33 PM on October 15, 2015


As someone who's heavily involved with the #bernieontheballot initiative here in Virginia, I find it unlikely that anyone other than Trump or Bush will be able to make the Republican primary here. Hillary will be a lock because the State Dems establishment (McAuliffe &c.) will easily be able to pull out the 5000 signatures (200 in each district) that are needed to get a name on the primary ballot. I had heard a report a few weeks ago that Cantor was behind Bush's efforts, and State Senator Mark Obenshain of Harrisonburg was supporting Walker before he dropped out. Trump has recently announced that he'll be hiring staff to collect signatures for his petition efforts, but with less than 60 days left to the Dec 10th deadline, I'm not really sure what other candidates will be able to make the cut. I know a lot of my right-minded friends are all for Carson, Trump, or Fiorina, but know for a fact that none of them are willing to volunteer for any of them.

Just judging by Facebook group membership, we've got almost 3000 people in Virginians for Bernie, Carson 700+, Rubio 600, Trump 370-something. And based on the results we've been able to achieve with our efforts, they're going to have a hard time indeed, and this is after Virginia's GOP General Assembly lowered the requirement from 10K to 5K signatures after only Ron Paul and Romney made the ballot in 2012.
posted by daHIFI at 3:33 PM on October 15, 2015 [5 favorites]




Either is better than any of the assholes on offer from the GOP. Fuck off, Salon.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:10 PM on October 15, 2015 [7 favorites]


Plus it is way too early to say that anyone may have clinched anything.
posted by futz at 6:40 PM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


But it's not too early for the journalists to try and help with the clinching.

The priests coronate the monarch; the monarch grants the priests "access."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:46 PM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm clenching something, all right
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:28 PM on October 15, 2015


I am super late to this party but can I just say how great it is to see Democrats talking like unashamed Democrats on national TV and not cringing in mortal terror that somebody is going to call them liberal
posted by zjacreman at 7:53 PM on October 15, 2015 [14 favorites]


So a scientific Google Consumer Surveys poll of viewers gave it to Sanders resoundingly. The previous survey that gave it to Hillary was done by Gravis, and Nate Silver ranked GCS way above Gravis for accuracy in the last election. At this point, I doubt the media narrative is gonna change, but Sanders supporters should take heart that the viewers likely believe he won.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:54 PM on October 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


They can both be winners, though. Hillary needed to soften her image, and just basically reintroduce herself and justify her frontrunner status, and I think she did that. Bernie needed to introduce himself for the first time, and show that he isn't just your ranting (lefty) uncle, and he did that, too.

I still think it's Hillary's race to lose, so that both doing well means she gets a tactical win, but certainly Bernie didn't screw things up.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:08 PM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, both won is my general analysis, but for the Sanders supporters who know they have to do a lot of catching up with Hillary it's really great news if viewers think he came out on top in a head to head.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:22 PM on October 15, 2015


if I hadn't been reading about Sanders online before the debate, and this was the first time I had seen or heard of him, I'm not sure I know what to make of him. as a person and a speaker, I found him absolutely terrifying. It was hard to focus on what he said for wondering when he was going to start ripping people's heads off and stuffing them down their throats.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:45 PM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


When Bernie Sanders crept to the podium, I clutched my hand to my chest in horror. The dread he inspired in me was unmatched by any I've ever known. I felt my sanity drain away as I watched his ghastly fingers gripping the podium. His face was a waxen mask molded into the shape of my secret nightmares. Can you even begin to imagine the fear his buzzing, inhuman voice carved into my soul? I lost all sense of time. When I woke up the next morning, I had forgotten the face of my mother.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 8:52 PM on October 15, 2015 [17 favorites]


I think you'd clicked onto the other debate between Ny R. LaThotep and Louis Cipher.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:01 PM on October 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wordshore: "I've just shown this video to a couple of more enlightened English people, who commented "Cool! So, he's a liberal; is he to the left or right of Hillary?"

Which is kinda worrying.
"

FWIW, in Europe "liberal" means support for free-market individualism and laissez-faire economics, rather than social liberalism or collective economic equality like it does in the U.S.

It does suck that they can't place Clinton on that axis relative to Rubio, though.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:34 PM on October 15, 2015


It was hard to focus on what he said for wondering when he was going to start ripping people's heads off and stuffing them down their throats

Soon, hopefully.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:22 PM on October 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


It was hard to focus on what he said for wondering when he was going to start ripping people's heads off and stuffing them down their throats

That's the 2137 election.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:54 PM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


SB Nation: The Democratic party has found its next president, PFT Commenter
Hendrix at Woodstock, Reggie Jackson in the World Series, Jesus after he died and became the son of god because his supporters coudnt find his body where his murderers said he was, and Lincoln Chafee at the Democratic debate. The Dems finally have a transcendent candidate that is the spearhead of a movement that has been building in the country for decades.

Chafee stared right into that camera last night and connected with dozens of Americas when he admitted that he had no idea what was in a bill he voted for that basically gave the major banks prima nocta over your paycheck because it was his first day on the job. I stand with Governor Chafee on this point. When I started my second stint at Outback they didnt just let me handle the bloomin onion, they put me on salads or saucing up the roo balls or whatever. You cant just expect one of 100 people in the United States chosen to represnt you in the worlds most powerful law-making body to go on the job and be competent from Day 1. I blame Harry Reid for not giving him some easy no-brainer assignments like voting to give up his constitutional duty to declare war because the President said he had this one under control.

Chafees magnatism and charisma borders on almost animal-like. This man fights like a lion and makes love like adonis. Have you ever tried to run a Presidental campaign off of only $30,000? During commercal breaks he was extreme couponing for attack ads in Guam. The scrap and zeal that just oozes out of every orifice of this guy screams Oval Office.
What is it about Vegas that makes every one-bit journo think he's (always a he) the reincarnation of Hunter S. Thompson? Anyway it's a hoot.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:17 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


What is it about Vegas that makes every one-bit journo think he's (always a he) the reincarnation of Hunter S. Thompson?

Fear and Loathing with Martin O'Malley
posted by homunculus at 12:24 AM on October 16, 2015


wordshore / rahomi - after looking at the ad, i suspect people are missing the first sentence or so (especially because you need to get used to the accent). if you listen to the later 2/3 of the spot, it sounds like a left wing politician. its only when you really listen to the first 1/3 that you pick up on the weird "blame rich people on the government" angle (the unexpected 'logic' of the argument doesn't help).

also, people are unlikely to recognise the name - outside the us, only jeb bush and donald trump (on the right) are getting much coverage imho.
posted by andrewcooke at 12:49 AM on October 16, 2015


as a person and a speaker, I found him absolutely terrifying. It was hard to focus on what he said for wondering when he was going to start ripping people's heads off and stuffing them down their throats.

I was going to take issue with this as hyperbolic concern trolling, possibly even ageist, but then it occurred to me that presidential races all, sooner or later, come down to some kind of purely cosmetic affair; concerning mostly a candidate's appearance and body language rather than the content of the ideas they express. The idea has been floated since JFK v. Nixon, and I have yet to see a presidential race that doesn't actually seriously entertain the idea that a candidate's eye-pleasingness is what really matters to voters. As widespread as this stupid notion is, I don't think we necessarily need to feed into it.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:17 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well, I'm sensitive to angry male shouting. I don't like it. It has unpleasant connotations for me. That's why I'm glad I've read a lot of what he has to say before I saw him speak.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:05 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'll agree that Bernie Sanders is very shouty.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:07 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, I'm sensitive to angry male shouting. I don't like it. It has unpleasant connotations for me.

Perfectly understandable. Sorry for conflating your personal reaction with the typical cosmetic grousing the accompanies election season.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:14 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


> Well, I'm sensitive to angry male shouting. I don't like it. It has unpleasant connotations for me.

Interesting. It's Ben Carson's eerie calm while saying horrible things that freaks me out. I bet we could track both of our reactions to individual life experiences.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:46 AM on October 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


Since you're predisposed to object to Carson’s ideology, I suspect that if he were shouting a lot he’d be easier to dismiss as another angry, ranty, conservative blowhard - someone dangerous but also kind of ridiculous.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:08 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm curious if some of Sanders loudness has to do with hearing loss, he had a couple moments when he needed questions repeated.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:13 AM on October 16, 2015


Not that I like Carson one whit or think he's not a wacko, but if he were shouting then he'd be an angry black man which would pose maybe a leeeedle difficulty in running in Republican primaries.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:24 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm more inclined to think Sanders' tone and timber has more to due with the frustration and anger that he and many voters in his demographic feel towards the status quo, something he has been trying to tap into and reflect.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:11 AM on October 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Another Bernie Sanders stumble, another Bernie Sanders conspiracy theory. At least this time they aren't blaming blacks or women, they're just undermining the public trust in journalism.

Meanwhile, in the first statistically valid poll on who won the Democratic debate, Clinton wins 56% to 33%.

Clearly, statistics have been bought out by the corporate interests.
posted by markkraft at 10:28 AM on October 16, 2015


I swear that half my Facebook feed seems to be people complaining about the mainstream media lining up against Sanders.
posted by octothorpe at 10:32 AM on October 16, 2015


> ... another Bernie Sanders conspiracy theory. ...

We're linking The Daily Caller here now? Please tell me we're not linking The Daily Caller here now.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:35 AM on October 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


I really have no dog in this fight, but why is it so hard to believe that corporate media would be hostile to a decidedly anti-corporate presidential candidate? This seems entirely plausible to me.

Also, "statistically valid" is meaningless if we're still talking about an online poll at the end of the day.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:36 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, "statistically valid" is meaningless if we're still talking about an online poll at the end of the day.

Their methodology can be perused here. It's not quite as bad as having "SurveyMonkey" in the name implies.
posted by Etrigan at 10:40 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


"why is it so hard to believe that corporate media would be hostile to a decidedly anti-corporate presidential candidate? This seems entirely plausible to me. "

Clearly, it was plausible that the women from Black Lives Matters who protested Sanders were actually Clinton supporters, or were paid corporate proxies, as some of Sanders supporters claimed.

...there just was absolutely no real evidence to prove it, and a fair amount to suggest that they were telling the truth.
posted by markkraft at 10:57 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


That doesn't actually answer my question but OK.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:58 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Their methodology can be perused here. It's not quite as bad as having "SurveyMonkey" in the name implies."

It's impressive... and a sample size of 4,898 people is huge, especially this early on in the race.
posted by markkraft at 10:59 AM on October 16, 2015


It's not "impressive" to base your conclusions about who the public thinks 'won' the debate on a survey wherein only 24% of people actually even watched the damn thing (p. 6).
posted by dialetheia at 11:03 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


lmao at Metafilter's biggest Hillary fan linking to the Daily Caller to paint Sanders fans as conspiratorial racists
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:08 AM on October 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


but why is it so hard to believe that corporate media would be hostile to a decidedly anti-corporate presidential candidate?

Corporate media's reaction and coverage of Sanders resembles more a collective 'meh' then a rabid hostility. They seem to save their hostility more towards Trump these days than any other candidate.

And it's not like Hillary Clinton is off the hook. She's received a lot negative coverage over the summer for the e-mail server issue, Biden as a rival, and also reports that she's not doing well in polls.
posted by FJT at 11:08 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


" "statistically valid" is meaningless if we're still talking about an online poll at the end of the day."

Comparing this NBC poll to something slapped up on a website that anyone can repeatedly click upon, run scripts on, or link others to, to their heart's content, shows an almost glaring lack of knowledge as to what makes a poll statistically valid.

The people were "selected using an algorithm . . . weighted for age, race, sex, education, and region using the Census Bureau’s American Community Survey".

That's a big thing, because otherwise you get the age and demographics of the average internet user, which is younger, whiter, and more male. It's not perfect, but with a large sample size, it certainly should give you a result with a meaningfully small margin of error.

If anything, this methodology errs in ways that slightly downplay's Clinton's results, because it presumes that everyone answering uses the internet -- behavior which is weighted towards Sanders' strengths -- and because it doesn't account for the median voter's age, which is pushing 50.

Even the Census' information on what people tell them an average voter should be is off by a significant amount, because if the respondents were telling the truth, then millions of more people would've voted in the elections than actually did. Based on election results, it seems pretty clear that older voters are more likely to vote than younger voters than even the census suggests... and Clinton has a large lead amongst older voters.
posted by markkraft at 11:13 AM on October 16, 2015


Also, "statistically valid" is meaningless if we're still talking about an online poll at the end of the day.

Online polls themselves can be fine. It's just the "click here to vote" ones that are inherently garbage. IIRC, yougov works by first sampling out of the national census microdata and looking at the demographics of the people they've sampled, and then going to their stable of responders and randomly selecting people with very similar demographics. Just letting the chips fall where they may and reweighting ex post using respondents' demographics can also be fine, though the downside can be that many of your respondents add very little to the inferential power of the poll.

It's impressive... and a sample size of 4,898 people is huge, especially this early on in the race.

Maybe. Sample sizes for polls like that can't be directly compared to "normal" scientific polls -- if you have a bunch of demographically similar respondents, then you might end up with 2,000 people who are reweighted to be effectively 500. To be the most half-assed person in the world, the bootstrapped error estimates imply that their results are broadly similar to a normal sample of around 2000.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:21 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Here's the thing, even if the media isn't out against Sanders now (I don't think it is as they don't really take him or his run seriously) if he starts winning caucuses and primaries, they will go after him. How will he and his team respond? There's no use crying about the mean ol' MSM. They've been ripping Hillary apart going on 20+ years now and Obama for almost a decade. They will do the same to Sanders if he is a viable candidate and it will get so much worse than some bullshit online polls.

How will Sanders respond? Will he survive? I think that's the real reason some people are backing Hillary. As long as she doesn't implode like last time when it wasn't a clean sweep, we know she can survive and fight back. Obama proved he could fight back and win. Until Sanders shows he can come back from his own Rev Wright hit job, I think a lot of folks will stick with Hillary. Saying the media isn't being fair is not going to win Sanders any favors - in fact it sort of proves the naysayers right as it makes his supporters seem naive and out-of-touch. The media has never been fair to any Democratic candidate in living memory and it's foolish to expect it. The Democratic party needs someone who can survive despite that and make the media work in his favor. Maybe Sanders is that guy, he showed a lot of savvy with how he responded to that question on gun control. Maybe he knows where and how he'll play to the center while keeping his liberal base satisfied. Time will tell.
posted by bgal81 at 11:24 AM on October 16, 2015 [9 favorites]


"lmao at Metafilter's biggest Hillary fan linking to the Daily Caller"

To tell you the truth, I didn't even know a single thing about Daily Caller. They just came up first when I did a Google News search for "Sanders Time Warner CNN". So, I would blame that one on Google, who should know better, seeing that they are #1 on Bernie Sanders' donors list. A little more searching though shows this article from Salon.

Basically, your attempt to attack the messenger -- someone who, incidentally, has been more active in both funding and supporting Larry Lessig than HRC -- basically reinforces the kind of ridiculous assertions that I have seen from Sanders supporters throughout this race.

The thing is, I like and agree with Sanders on many things, even though I dislike his rather insular, anti-immigration, pro-gun, isolationist history.

But Sanders' supporters have been really quite atrocious. I mean, worse than Ron Paul bad. You've consistently been your own worst enemies.
posted by markkraft at 11:27 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


PUMAs are back, baby!
posted by tonycpsu at 11:35 AM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Blargh.
posted by bgal81 at 11:37 AM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Public Use Microdata Areas?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:40 AM on October 16, 2015


PUMAs are back, baby!

Maybe Bernie backers could form CATAMOUNT in response?

Concerned Activists for a More...something something.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:44 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"It's not "impressive" to base your conclusions about who the public thinks 'won' the debate on a survey wherein only 24% of people actually even watched the damn thing"

Politically speaking, I would argue that it actually means more and has more influence, but that's the way these things go.

It actually takes the general public several days to decide who won a debate, and then the polls shift accordingly.

Quantum physics: when you observe something, you change it.
posted by markkraft at 11:51 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"PUMAs are back, baby!"

The PUMAs were idiots, who refused to back a Democrat over a Republican. Hillary or the highway, basically.

The fact is, there is a group like the PUMAs out there... but they aren't Clinton supporters, this time around. They even have hashtags.

Citizens Revolt Against Plutocracy... CRAPpers!
posted by markkraft at 12:21 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd happily vote for Sanders as I've said before but he doesn't actually have a path to the nomination unless Clinton completely implodes. It's nice to have someone around in case she gets hit by a bus or something though.
posted by Justinian at 12:23 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


For the record, I agree with internet fraud detective squad that the conspiracy-mongering among some Sanders supporters in the wake of Black Lives Matter's interrupting him was offensive and shameful.

That said, how dare anyone undermine the public trust in America's unfailingly accurate, unbiased, benevolent, and popularly acclaimed news media. How dare they.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:23 PM on October 16, 2015 [10 favorites]


It's not "impressive" to base your conclusions about who the public thinks 'won' the debate on a survey wherein only 24% of people actually even watched the damn thing (p. 6).

This is a potential problem if non-viewers were included in the final results, yeah. Non-viewers will have received the media coverage that said she won and assume it's correct. The Google poll I linked earlier that gave it to Bernie was a viewer poll.

As for blaming the media for narratives after a debate...that happens with like every single debate ever. Trying to call out Bernie supporters as uniquely conspiratorial in that regard is silly.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:28 PM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I appreciate Etrigan's clarification on the methodology of the poll. And the caveat that only like a quarter of the people who responded actually watched the debates. Regardless, it looks like Sanders still has his work cut out for him.

But one thing that bothers me - and is being demonstrated again, in this thread - are the kind of dishonest rhetorical tactics used by people entrenched with a particular candidate, while deflecting any criticism of their favorite. Like saying Sanders' is "anti-immigrant", for example, is absurd. He opposed Bush's immigration "reform" because, in his own words, guest workers are "working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they’re thrown out of the country."

Both he and Clinton and anyone wanting to be the leader of the US are going to have a lot to answer for, and there's likely plenty of things they have said and done that will not hold up to scrutiny and will deserve criticism. Which is great! That's a part of democracy. What bothers me is when those waters are muddied with shrill and baseless or dishonest allegations.

I remember this shit from four years ago and it was ugly as hell. I really hope we can try better this time around.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:35 PM on October 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


> To tell you the truth, I didn't even know a single thing about Daily Caller. They just came up first when I did a Google News search for "Sanders Time Warner CNN". So, I would blame that one on Google, who should know better, seeing that they are #1 on Bernie Sanders' donors list.

Okay,

1) Why were you googling "Sanders Time Warner CNN" in the first place? I would never think to google that particular combination, and if you want people to trust your motivations you'd tell us where you picked up the idea in the first place.

2) Google doesn't claim to vet its results for accuracy or validity; its algorithm is supposed to find web-pages that are most-linked to by other web pages.

3) If the links in your comments just come from googling stuff and posting the first result found I'm going to adopt a policy of ignoring them.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:41 PM on October 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Fascinating post by DeRay about the preparation and discussions they had with both Senator Sanders and Secretary Clinton and their respective campaign staff in the past months.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:43 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"As for blaming the media for narratives after a debate...that happens with like every single debate ever."

This situation is different. Specifically saying, "Well, the parent company gave $$ to Clinton, and sponsored the debate, and now they are trying to destroy his campaign by basically agreeing with practically every other major political journalist that Clinton did the best in the debate..."

That doesn't happen with every single debate ever.

I've known people who worked as journalists for CNN. They've gone overseas, been shot at, fought with editors to get their story published or to investigate issues, dealt with the difficult issues of factchecking, investigative journalism vs. cost, ratings, perceived relevance, sensationalism, etc. There are a lot of things about rigorous major journalistic organizations that are incredibly frustrating for journalists. And it's already very frustrating for journalists to see it coming apart at the seams, in many ways, with a real cheapening of standards. The stress levels and burnout levels are very high... but CNN is not FoxNews.

There are reasons to be skeptical about all sorts of aspects of journalism, but when you make it a major meme for young progressives to say that the media is flat out against them, that's damaging and kind of insulting, especially since most of the media are far better informed -- and, as a result, tend to be more liberal -- than the general mainstream. It's not easy work to do right, but it matters.
posted by markkraft at 12:55 PM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


especially since most of the media are far better informed -- and, as a result, tend to be more liberal -- than the general mainstream.

[citation needed]
posted by tonycpsu at 1:07 PM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


that's damaging and kind of insulting, especially since most of the media are far better informed ... than the general mainstream.

hahahahahahahahahaha. I'd say more, but I'm not allowed to.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:21 PM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I mean, personally, I know several members of the political media, and they are all left of center, well-informed, and hard working. But I'm not going to draw any conclusions about the media complex as a whole based on that. Crap like the endless credulity of the NYT about Clinton "scandals" says a lot more there.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:35 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


This situation is different. Specifically saying, "Well, the parent company gave $$ to Clinton, and sponsored the debate, and now they are trying to destroy his campaign by basically agreeing with practically every other major political journalist that Clinton did the best in the debate..."

That doesn't happen with every single debate ever.


I'm just not seeing any of these accusation that raise it to some unique conspiracy theory level and not the usual claims of media bias that you get on every political issue. None of the links in the Salon piece back up the overwrought descriptions of what is happening.

Who “won” a debate is inherently subjective. The idea of winning a debate necessarily entails a goal to be achieved. What this goal is, therefore, says as much about the person judging its achievement as the goal itself. Pundits are ostensibly supposed to judge whether or not a candidate said what "the voters” want to hear. But what ends up happening, invariably, is they end up judging whether or not the candidate said what they think voters wanted to hear. This, after all, is why pundits exist, to act as a clergy class charged with interpreting people’s own inscrutable opinions for them. The chasm between what the pundits saw and what the public saw was even bigger than usual last night.

This argument is clearly pure tinfoil! What's next? Hillary is brainwashing the media with chemtrails?
posted by Drinky Die at 1:39 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


markkraft, I was going to ask you if you had more information about Sanders' anti-immigration status, because I don't know much about it and I'm always glad to get info from other informed people. But I do like to find out about my sources — there are a lot of people out there who are willing to bend or shade the truth to support their arguments.

And dude, you do not come across as reliable. Like I have never seen someone who favorites so many of their own comments; I count nine on that page currently. (That's with the "Favorited by others" count on your user page currently standing at 7937.) I admit I've never checked any other user's self-favoriting. Maybe it's a common practice around here but it strikes me as border-line deceptive. What's the deal?
posted by benito.strauss at 1:40 PM on October 16, 2015


There is nothing wrong with self-favoriting.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:43 PM on October 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


In fairness, if you are quietly proud of a comment you made, it feels okay to self-favorite.
posted by Wordshore at 1:44 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


IIRC Clinton won most of her debates with Obama which clearly doomed him.
posted by bgal81 at 1:46 PM on October 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


[Whatever your opinion of someone is, it'd be best not to get into the territory of publicly questioning people about how they use the site outside of some relevant MetaTalk context.]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:52 PM on October 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


There are reasons to be skeptical about all sorts of aspects of journalism, but when you make it a major meme for young progressives to say that the media is flat out against them, that's damaging and kind of insulting, especially since most of the media are far better informed -- and, as a result, tend to be more liberal -- than the general mainstream.

What's insulting is reducing criticism of major media outlets' collusion with political and/or business interests to a "meme". We're not talking about Doge here. We're not even talking about Ermahgerd. There are real, evidence-based reasons why people are skeptical of how certain outlets report on certain people or subjects. And I say that as someone who works in journalism. I would personally be loathe to make any kind of sweeping pronouncements of the informedness and lofty progressiveness of reporters over the unwashed masses.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 2:09 PM on October 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


''Okay,

1) Why were you googling "Sanders Time Warner CNN" in the first place? I would never think to google that particular combination, and if you want people to trust your motivations you'd tell us where you picked up the idea in the first place.


Gee Benito, I am sorry to hear that you would never think about how to use Google News effectively, but that you would be enough of a jerk to question my motivations even after giving you both a reasonable explanation and another credible source to chew on.

Where did I pick up the idea of searching for CNN Time Warner Sanders in Google News? Because I mentioned the debate on my FB, only to get told by a Sanders supporter that CNN / Time Warner was conspiring to destroy Sanders' campaign. I researched the matter, and found it rather lacking in credibility... another conspiracy theory, essentially. It pretty much presupposes that *every other major media org* is dedicated to agreeing with them.

"Google doesn't claim to vet its results for accuracy or validity; its algorithm is supposed to find web-pages that are most-linked to by other web pages."

Actually, they try to find the most authoritative links, not the most linked to, so that they can't be gamed as much... but yeah, the source for the first result there kinda sucked, even if the content itself was accurate.

"If the links in your comments just come from googling stuff and posting the first result found I'm going to adopt a policy of ignoring them."

I research a lot of issues every day, and Google News is useful, even if all the links aren't equally credible. If I am making a major post, I try to vet my links a bit more, but when I am just trying to find an article that explains something which happened in reply to someone, then I'm not necessarily going to make sure it's the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc.

Really, it's up to you to do your own work, because I don't know what sources you agree with, or necessarily know much about the plethora of new media sites being spewed up, many of which have their own angles / axes to grind. If you see a source you don't like and summarily dismiss a story without actually trying to find another source, or at least paying serious attention to whether the article is credible, in itself... that's on you. You're the only one who is going to lose as a result, if you dismiss something that turns out to be true.
posted by markkraft at 2:16 PM on October 16, 2015


Okay, my apologies to all, especially markkraft.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:17 PM on October 16, 2015


I'd happily vote for Sanders as I've said before but he doesn't actually have a path to the nomination unless Clinton completely implodes.

To be fair, she's done it before.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:14 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I went into 2008 as a mostly a Clinton supporter but she ran such a terrible campaign and her supporters were so awful that I ended up voting for Obama in the PA primary. She seems to have a better organization this time so we'll see.
posted by octothorpe at 3:37 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"markkraft, I was going to ask you if you had more information about Sanders' anti-immigration status, because I don't know much about it and I'm always glad to get info from other informed people."

It's really one of my biggest issues with Sanders. This interview he did with the oftentimes racist Lou Dobbs in 2007 is particularly frustrating to me, as Dobbs went off on "socioethnocentric special interests groups" -- a not-too-subtle attack on the NCLR, the largest Latino American org in the country -- as having "very little regard for the traditions of this country, the values of this country"... with Bernie basically nodding along and saying nothing about it. He also made a joke about overseas workers coming into the country to work as lifeguards... which would perhaps be more amusing if Americans weren't drowning because of a shortage of lifeguards.
posted by markkraft at 3:50 PM on October 16, 2015




Freddie deBoer takes journalist scum to task.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:44 PM on October 16, 2015


Freddie deBoer takes journalist scum to task.

Um, not quite sure who this guy is, but did Jonah Ryan just make the jump to real life?
posted by FJT at 6:03 PM on October 16, 2015 [2 favorites]




… no pressure.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:18 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


"No, It Won't"

There, that was equally authoritative.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:49 PM on October 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


Patton Oswalt blogging the debate: "A Vanderbilt heir is grilling the candidates on socialism."
posted by JackFlash at 8:29 PM on October 16, 2015 [14 favorites]


Freddie deBoer takes journalist scum to task.

It's 2015. If you're still using Bluehost, at least change the favicon.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:30 PM on October 16, 2015


Looks like the NBC/SurveyMonkey poll has some company, with results that correspond together quite nicely.

Or, as they say in French, "Surveymonkey vont très bien ensemble... très bien ensemble."
posted by markkraft at 7:07 AM on October 17, 2015


The "company" being one poll that asked people to choose between "Clinton or someone else", an overnight robocall, and a Boston Globe poll where in just over half the respondents even watched the debate and ...

You know what? Screw it. It's going to be exhausting work on your cherry farm if I keep engaging until the nomination. I'll show myself out.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:11 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's rather amusing to see so many people doubting / underestimating the significance of Hillary winning this debate some 13 months before the election. Have we already forgotten how vital her late 2007 and early 2008 debate victories were to defeating Senator Obama on the way to her first Presidential term?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:35 AM on October 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


"The "company" being one poll that asked people to choose between "Clinton or someone else", an overnight robocall, and a Boston Globe poll where in just over half the respondents even watched the debate and..."

You are talking about just one question in a multiple question survey, geared towards finding out how many Democrats would prefer another candidate in general, vs. the actual question where they asked "Which candidate do you think did the best job – or won – the debate?", and only asked those who had either seen the debate, or at least seen its clips and highlights.

But yeah... it is still very early. Obama had some initial debate losses to Hillary as well. I do think this debate means more, however, just because there are only another five debates to go that we know of, as opposed to 2007, which had over 20 debates. That gives fewer face-to-face windows of opportunity to shift the polls in any given direction.

Frankly, one debate a month seems kind of reasonable to me, especially since after that point, media orgs could potentially host many additional debates without running afoul of DNC exclusion rules.
posted by markkraft at 2:34 PM on October 17, 2015


Jeb! is...I dunno what he is doing? Locked in a room with advisers trying to figure out Donald Trump?

Jeb wins it by, somehow, persuading Trump to be VP. Seems unlikely, to me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:07 PM on October 17, 2015


I think the only way Jeb! can beat Trump at this point is to challenge him to and defeat him in a fist fight at the next debate. I am being serious. The fact that he is being bullied so hard is making it so Republicans don't take him seriously.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:25 PM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


He could challenge him to a duel. Republicans would eat that shit up.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:31 PM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Okay, is it just me, or does Bernie Sanders talk just like Larry David as George Steinbrenner in Seinfeld?

Nailed it
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 4:31 AM on October 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


Lawrence Lessig in The Atlantic, on changing his stance on resigning once campaign finance reform is passed: “I’m All In”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:19 PM on October 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


this is my surprised face
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:11 PM on October 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ehhh - it seems sort of surprising. I mean, Lessig had more right to be on the stage the other night than Chafee or Webb, at least going purely on dollars-raised basis. The better question is - do you want a candidate who didn’t realize that being a referendum can work? Either way, as long as it gets him more PR for the issue, it's fine by me.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:42 PM on October 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


I would love to see Lessig in a debate. The guy may be naive in his tactics, but he's right on the issues. And he's had some pretty damn good ideas before. Creative Commons was a huge success in my book. I'd vote for Sanders over him, but he has to be good for the Overton Window. I would rather see him talk about Copyright reform than campaign finance reform, but that's just my librarian nature. Both are important issues.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 5:03 PM on October 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd want to see Lessig serve a term or two in Congress -- effectively -- before taking him seriously as a national candidate. As much as I enjoy him as an intellectual.

What he really should be is the director of some kind of Joint Commission on Unfucking Our Rights 15 Years After Bush/Gore and 9-11. (I know Lessig is focused more on campaign finance than security & surveillance, but still.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:55 AM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Freddie deBoer: You can take the Villager out of the Village ...
What else to make of this piece by Jake Flanagin or this piece by Amanda Marcotte, both of which have the same absurd idea: that the biggest problem that Bernie Sanders faces, politically, is the online conduct of his biggest online fans. The biggest problem! A Jewish socialist from Brooklyn in the land of Reagan, and his biggest problem is a few dozen people on Twitter!

Let’s think about some likely Democrat primary voters. Like, say, a white woman who lives in the greater Cincinnati suburbs, who can’t get enough hours at her part-time job organizing records for a oral surgeon, and whose ex-husband can’t pay her child support because his only income is disability payments. Or a black bus driver in Maryland who’s worried about what’s going to happen to his pension in the next union contract negotiations. Or a Hispanic first grade teacher in Florida who doesn’t know if her school’s funding is going to get cut yet again. Or a retiree in Pennsylvania whose economic security is dependent entirely on Social Security and Medicare. Or a Laotian immigrant in the Bay Area who’s struggling to bring her mother into the country.

Now: which of these people, do you think, is going to vote based on the conduct of Bernie Sanders fans on Twitter?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:11 AM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


SLOW BURN: BERNIE SANDERS IGNITES A POPULIST MOVEMENT
Nate Silver has the Bernie Sanders campaign figured out. Ignore what happens in Iowa and New Hampshire, the “data-driven” prognostication wizard wrote back in July, when Sanders was polling a healthy 30 percent to Clinton’s 46 percent in both contests. That’s only, Silver says, because “Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa and Democratic primary voters in New Hampshire are liberal and white, and that’s the core of Sanders’ support.”

Silver has a chart. It shows that when you multiply the number of liberals and whites among state electorates, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Iowa rank first, second, and third. Texas is near the bottom—a place where Bernie Sanders should feel about as welcome as a La Raza convention at the Alamo, right?

I have a new friend who begs to differ.
538: We Got Berned & This Is How Bernie Sanders Could Win now Did The Democratic Debate Change The Odds?
natesilver: OK, there probably won’t be a revolution. But there’s more of a precedent for someone like Sanders being nominated than someone like Trump. I’m not saying the chance is high. I’m selling at 13 percent. But you’ve seen candidates like George McGovern and Barry Goldwater emerge when the party establishment failed to nominate acceptable choices. Obviously that doesn’t work so long as Clinton remains strong. But if she were to drop out tomorrow, I’m not sure Biden beats Sanders.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:23 AM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


so politics that prioritise the poor are not "left wing" but "economic populism" (slow burn article).
posted by andrewcooke at 11:35 AM on October 19, 2015


There are good reasons to be wary of that phrasing, but I doubt Rick "Nixonland" Perlstein used it because he opposes left-wing politics.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:58 AM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


There is something about Bernie Sanders that scares our establishment shitless.
What's really ass-backwards odd about our establishment punditry, is that they've finally started accepting the fact that Donald Trump is leading the GOP presidential field (took them a while).

But when it comes to Bernie Sanders beating Hillary in recent polls in important states, and in the debate last week, not so much.

Just look at the pundit response to the debate.
Thanks, "selected web polls"! The opening of the bq above made me think of Ezra Klein's read on Marco Rubio winning the nomination: "I gave a speech last night where I repeated my prediction that Hillary Clinton and Marco Rubio would win their respective primaries.... There’s no obvious evidence to support my prediction." even as The Donald hits JEB! like a boxer working the body.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:13 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


I really don't think anyone knows anything about who the GOP nominee will be. This is a weird race.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:20 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I thought Clinton clearly did what she needed to do during the debate and I don't really get some people's insistence that Sanders won. He was okay but when you're behind in the polls, in fundraising, and in endorsements that's not enough.
posted by Justinian at 3:58 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Jim Webb might leave the Democratic party according to reports. Talk about taking your ball and going home. How thin skinned can you be?
posted by Justinian at 3:27 AM on October 20, 2015


Clinton solidifying in polls:
A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll finds Hillary Clinton leading the Democratic primary field with 49%, followed by Bernie Sanders 1t 29% and Joe Biden at 15%.

“Mrs. Clinton was the only Democratic candidate whose standing improved significantly in the post-debate poll. Support for Mr. Sanders dropped 6 percentage points, from 35% in September, on a ballot that included Mr. Biden, and it fell by about the same amount without Mr. Biden in the race.”

A new Washington Post-ABC News poll finds Clinton leading with 54%, followed by Sanders at 23% and Biden at 16%.

A new Morning Consult poll shows Clinton leading with 56%, followed by Sanders at 24%.

A new Reuters/Ipsos poll shows Clinton’s support jumping 10 points since the debate.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:39 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jim Webb might leave the Democratic party according to reports.

I'm starting to think that the rightward and leftward shifts of the two major American political parties over the last thirty years were based primarily on "Oh, shit, Jim Webb is here. Quick, change the platform!"
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


I thought Clinton clearly did what she needed to do during the debate and I don't really get some people's insistence that Sanders won. He was okay but when you're behind in the polls, in fundraising, and in endorsements that's not enough.

Well, that's because it's really kind of ridiculous to say that anyone 'won' or 'lost' a debate like this, where they both acquitted themselves perfectly well and did what they set out to do. I'd say there were two winners and three losers on that stage.

That said, I'm not surprised that Clinton seems to have gotten a bump from it, just because a lot of people hadn't actually seen her speak in a while and were basing their support or lack of support on their idea of her. For most viewers, this was a reintroduction for her, whereas it was an introduction for Sanders.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:57 AM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]




What a shocker
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 AM on October 21, 2015


What a shocker

The Onion's version of Joe Biden would have flashed "the shocker" with both hands at the end of making his announcement.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:11 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wasn't surprised at all, but the pundit-rati sure seemed to think he was going to announce.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:23 AM on October 21, 2015


The Onion's version of Joe Biden would have flashed "the shocker" with both hands at the end of making his announcement.

Diamond Joe would have announced that, after a lot of thought and deep consideration and consultation with his family, that he will, in fact, be running with the bulls in Pamplona, and that it will be totally sick.
posted by Etrigan at 10:27 AM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Joe Biden Will Not Run for President.

New thread
posted by ogooglebar at 10:33 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


...and then there were three.
posted by ogooglebar at 6:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wrong. Four.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:17 PM on October 23, 2015


I feel like the great irony of Lessig’s being frozen out of everything is, of course, that he’s earned more money than some of the other candidates while campaigning on the idea that the problem is that money can get too much talk.

Yes, yes, we could say that Lessig is being out-talked by the bigger money interests out there who are controlling Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, but let me have my little goof.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:46 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


He's not going to win anything, but he's at least earned his place at the debates, more than Chaffee and Webb and probably O'Malley have.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:11 PM on October 23, 2015




Is everyone ready? I am ready.
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on October 28, 2015


Guys, guys, its starting.
posted by Justinian at 5:16 PM on October 28, 2015


Blazing a trail, hey-o! Also, I am going to be so sick of the words 'your money, your vote' two hours from now.
posted by box at 5:16 PM on October 28, 2015


God, who thought "tell us what your biggest weakness is?" was a good debate question. This isn't a student body president debate.
posted by Justinian at 5:19 PM on October 28, 2015


And Kasich begins by avoiding the question followed by Huckabee's traditional yuck yuck about his wife. I noticed "blazing" too and smiled
posted by carmicha at 5:20 PM on October 28, 2015


I suppose it would have been too much to hope for Fiorina to say "well, I'm a shitty CEO".
posted by Justinian at 5:22 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


30 seconds of sarcasm from Ted Cruz would've worked better than that DD shtick.
posted by box at 5:23 PM on October 28, 2015


No more than having them all answer, "Well, I'm batshit crazy."
posted by carmicha at 5:24 PM on October 28, 2015


I found it! Yay snark!
posted by Fritzle at 5:26 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I believe 100% of American voters would support debate moderators actually cutting the mic whenever these chuckleheads go over their time limit.
posted by mostly vowels at 5:27 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


So CNBC is... fact checking?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:28 PM on October 28, 2015


Ben Carson getting the smack laid down on him. He got schooooled.
posted by Justinian at 5:28 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


"I'm the only person on this stage who" DRINK!
posted by carmicha at 5:29 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Becky Quick: You'd need to cut the federal government by 40% to make your plan work.

Ben Carson: Uh, no I wouldn't.

Becky Quick: Yes you would, I did the math.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:30 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like how in the spirit of Halloween they got the audience behind the moderators to all wear Crypt Keeper masks.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:30 PM on October 28, 2015


Kasich is going for the sane vote.
posted by carmicha at 5:31 PM on October 28, 2015


Snark aside this is good.
posted by Justinian at 5:32 PM on October 28, 2015


Kasich is going for the sane vote.

Hoping to push his Republican numbers up to a good 8-9% then?
posted by Justinian at 5:33 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Obligatory reminder from an Ohioan Kasich is far from moderate.
posted by mostly vowels at 5:34 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Kasich is going for the sane vote.

Fucked.
posted by Artw at 5:34 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


'Decile'? Cruz is not running away from Beowulf.
posted by box at 5:35 PM on October 28, 2015


Where does he stand on Earth curvature?
posted by Artw at 5:35 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


When Carson pauses, what song do you think is playing through his head?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:35 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Anyone got a stream for this?
posted by MsVader at 5:35 PM on October 28, 2015


Kasich is far from moderate.
I know, but unfortunately his Reasonable Man mask is tied on pretty tight tonight.
posted by carmicha at 5:36 PM on October 28, 2015


Song in Carson's head = What a Wonderful World as sung by Louis Armstrong.
posted by carmicha at 5:37 PM on October 28, 2015


MsVader - see if this works http://www.livenewschat.eu/the-republican-debates-live-stream/
posted by Fritzle at 5:37 PM on October 28, 2015


I believe 100% of American voters would support debate moderators actually cutting the mic whenever these chuckleheads go over their time limit.

I'll see your muting and raise you... Autotune.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:38 PM on October 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


This Rubio answer could not be any more obviously rote memorization of a canned answer if he was reading it off his hand.
posted by Justinian at 5:38 PM on October 28, 2015


Or this one: http://www.hulkusc.com/watch-cnbc-live-stream/
posted by Fritzle at 5:38 PM on October 28, 2015


Rubio and Fiorina killing it.

Bush taking weak shots at Rubio.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:39 PM on October 28, 2015


...and Rubio just slaughtered him in response. Good prep work by him.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:40 PM on October 28, 2015


Rubio remains dangerously smooth.
posted by carmicha at 5:40 PM on October 28, 2015


Seriously.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:40 PM on October 28, 2015


JEB! is done. Time to go do one of those other things he said he has to fall back on.
posted by Justinian at 5:41 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


First link's laggy and stuttery. Second link is dead. We'll keep trying.
posted by MsVader at 5:41 PM on October 28, 2015


Did Bush just say something about lids?

Ohhh, shit, Carly HP question!
posted by box at 5:42 PM on October 28, 2015


Buying Compaq doesn't count as growth, Carly.
posted by carmicha at 5:43 PM on October 28, 2015


Stealing from chat and not checking these because my wifi sucks. http://www.showscorners.com/watch-republican-debate-live/
posted by Fritzle at 5:44 PM on October 28, 2015


Hey, she did better than Gateway!
posted by box at 5:44 PM on October 28, 2015


Have you guys tried streaming from CNBC? They're hosting the debate after all.
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on October 28, 2015


What's up with the sound? Did Carson just start biting into a crisp apple or something?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:44 PM on October 28, 2015


Carly is so damn smooth. She's the most competent-sounding incompetent person I've ever heard.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:44 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


"But Tom Perkins is a nut."
"Yes. Yes he is."
posted by carmicha at 5:45 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ted Cruz: First, I'd just like to say, "Fuck You," moderators.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:46 PM on October 28, 2015


Cruz, dang.
posted by box at 5:46 PM on October 28, 2015


Well, let's hear some substance already.
posted by MsVader at 5:47 PM on October 28, 2015


Cruz: "What do you mean I can't do whatever I want with no consequences?"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:47 PM on October 28, 2015


I wonder how many people there actually know what a Menshevik is or if its just "vaguely sinister sounding Russian word-thing".
posted by Justinian at 5:48 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Cruz wants to be the smartest guy in the room, Kasich wants to be the only adult. We'll see how that works for 'em.
posted by box at 5:49 PM on October 28, 2015


Paul angling for 3rd party. Paul/Webb '16! RC Cola for all!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:50 PM on October 28, 2015


"Borrowing a million dollars a minute" = $1.44 billion a day = $525 Billion year
posted by carmicha at 5:51 PM on October 28, 2015


I wonder how many people there actually know what a Menshevik is or if its just "vaguely sinister sounding Russian word-thing".

Q: Mr. Carson, do you believe that Russia should first have to experience a bourgeois revolution and go through a capitalist stage of development before socialism is technically possible and before the working class could develop the necessary consciousness for a socialist revolution?
posted by leotrotsky at 5:51 PM on October 28, 2015 [14 favorites]


Huckabee should really avoid fat guy analogies.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:52 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Talking about diets? Huckabee learned nothing from the dog thing.
posted by box at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Borrowing a million dollars a minute" = $1.44 trillion a day.

Er... 1.44billion, yes?
posted by Justinian at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2015


Cruz weed joke.
posted by box at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2015


Yep; I fixed it.
posted by carmicha at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2015


'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this debate.
posted by homunculus at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2015




Whelp, you heard it on CNBC first. Ted Cruz eats pot brownies.
posted by Fritzle at 5:59 PM on October 28, 2015


Carson/Shkreli 2016!
posted by homunculus at 6:02 PM on October 28, 2015


uhhhh someone fill me in on the massive tax increases that JEB! is mumbling about?
posted by Justinian at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2015


'Third term' is a talking point. Also 'a warm kiss.'
posted by box at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Have they asked JEB! if he has always liked his nickname?
posted by rhizome at 6:07 PM on October 28, 2015


Carly makes a bold pitch for small and powerless government.
posted by box at 6:08 PM on October 28, 2015


Rubio: I'm financially incompetent because I have a family.
posted by carmicha at 6:11 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Argh. I was so excited and amped for this again but now...I just have to go watch Bob's Burgers reruns.
posted by Fritzle at 6:12 PM on October 28, 2015


Dr. Carson, this is a literally a video of you saying "Mannatec gives me the power to fly, and you can quote me on that," while you are rolling in a pile of $100 bills. Doesn't that implicate your judgement?

*Crowd boos*
posted by leotrotsky at 6:19 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


Voc-Ed will fill those software engineer spots!
posted by box at 6:24 PM on October 28, 2015


Even the CNBC intern has fallen asleep - The Twitter crawl is starting to repeat.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:24 PM on October 28, 2015


Rubio: We need to get back to training people to get back to work in this country. Why have we abandoned vocational education in this country?

Maybe because the old vocations comprise the set of jobs that have been outsourced over the past 30 years.
posted by rhizome at 6:26 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


So, on another note, who wore it best? I'm a fan of Carly's regal purple and Jeb's navy-tie, navy-suit look. Not so much Christie's rubber bracelet and magenta tie. Also, is this Rand Paul's, like, second question?
posted by box at 6:30 PM on October 28, 2015


Some nice topical blimp gags from Huck. Also let's cure cancer.
posted by box at 6:32 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rand Paul is channeling Jim Webb.
posted by homunculus at 6:37 PM on October 28, 2015


I wish they had followed up asking Huck by exactly how much he wants to cut the military's budget given the blimp thing was purely military in nature.
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on October 28, 2015


Dang, from where I'm standing Kasich whiffed the MJ thing.
posted by box at 6:40 PM on October 28, 2015


From Jamelle Bouie:

Moderator: “We’re going to go to a candidate now.”
Every person on stage: “You shut your garbage mouth and let me talk.”
posted by leotrotsky at 6:41 PM on October 28, 2015


from twitter:

Kasich is like the guy at the farmer's market wearing a jean jacket, trying to tell you his theory about the Kennedy assassination.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:42 PM on October 28, 2015


Christie: under my administration, police can assault as many people as they like.
posted by homunculus at 6:52 PM on October 28, 2015


Kasich: college students don't need a place to park.
posted by box at 6:54 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


A question about fantasy fucking football? Seriously?

edit: I can't believe I agree with Chris Christie.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fantasy sports? Okay, we're wrapping it up.
posted by box at 6:55 PM on October 28, 2015


You could win a bet in a bar.
posted by box at 6:58 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huckabee: "With me as your president I will descend into the great abyss and vanquish Death himself"
posted by theodolite at 7:09 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


That is absolutely not right.
posted by box at 7:18 PM on October 28, 2015




What's the over under on Bush shutting down the campaign now? That debate was just brutal for him.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wow, Rand Paul has a huge spread between public statements and voting record (like Ron Paul).
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:25 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]




https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/659555444202070016/photo/1
-
A question about fantasy fucking football? Seriously?

It's a question about a possibly corrupt very huge unregulated gambling industry disguised as fantasy football. It's a legitimate issue, especially when you have people like Christie and Trump on the stage who have a lot of involvement with gambling issues and social conservative culture warriors who oppose legal gambling. It could have been a good discussion if they didn't punt it with pretending it was nothing.

If it's really not a big deal worthy of government attention, then maybe the people on that stage who oppose legal gambling should explain why this is different. The people who support highly regulated gaming should explain why this should be exempt.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:49 PM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


I thought the CNBC moderators were great. Blew CNN out of the water. They seemed to do a good job getting everyone involved and they didn't take any shit from the candidates. The moment when they called out Cruz for dodging a substantive question to rant about the lack of substantive questions and refused to give him extra time was excellent. I would love to see Bernie and Hillary face the same questioners. Does anybody know if CNBC doing a democratic debate at any point?
posted by Drinky Die at 9:45 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Most of the moderators' early questions were atrociously dumb, focusing on personality and horse-race garbage rather than issues: asking Jeb why he was down in the polls for his first question was classic "We just read Politico this morning and so this is what we think is important to ask about" Beltway idiocy. Same goes for most of the other questions in the first half hour.

In short, Ted Cruz is a land of contrasts, but he was mostly right in his pissy rant.
posted by mediareport at 9:53 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Nate Silver: Yeah, Jeb Bush Is Probably Toast
posted by octothorpe at 6:44 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]






Jeb! seems completely unable to actually put in work campaigning. His little snit after the debate ("if they're looking for an entertainer in chief, I'm probably not the guy") is akin to someone handing in a resume and complaining about having to sit through a job interview ("what, I have to PERFORM for you like a trained monkey?! My last name doesn't suffice?!").

Also, as much as Rubio killed it last night, all of his best moments were obviously pre-planned and memorized, and they only worked because there were too many people on that stage, not enough of whom are very quick on their feet. If Rubio's the nominee, either Bernie or Hillary (both of whom are quick-thinking and can be witty) will mop the floor with him. Good.
posted by sallybrown at 9:47 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


("Mannatech" sounds like a fake tech startup from an episode of L&O: SVU. The best part of that exchange was Carson explicitly plugging the product at the end of his answer denying he was involved with the company.)
posted by sallybrown at 9:49 AM on October 29, 2015 [5 favorites]



Jeb! seems completely unable to actually put in work campaigning. His little snit after the debate ("if they're looking for an entertainer in chief, I'm probably not the guy") is akin to someone handing in a resume and complaining about having to sit through a job interview ("what, I have to PERFORM for you like a trained monkey?! My last name doesn't suffice?!").


Ugh he was so complainy.

Also I'm wondering now if Ben Carson is some kind of evil genius.
posted by zutalors! at 9:57 AM on October 29, 2015


The Agony of JEB! - "He just isn't all that good at this. And he knows it."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:10 AM on October 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


It also seems like he just doesn't wanna.
posted by zutalors! at 10:50 AM on October 29, 2015


Also I'm wondering now if Ben Carson is some kind of evil genius.

Well, you're half right.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


How long before the Draft Mitt movement is trotted out again? Probably whenever the new infatuation with Rubio blows over and Fiorina starts to lead.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:07 AM on October 29, 2015


Well, if there's anything worth learning from Romney's podcasted conversation with David Axelrod (YES, REALLY #strangebedfellows), it's that he is well and truly done with seeking the presidency.
posted by psoas at 11:27 AM on October 29, 2015


Hmm. Well, that's reassuring. (Hopefully I won't be biting my tongue this time next year.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:32 AM on October 29, 2015


Bush: My campaign's not 'terminal'

Well, if anybody knows about keeping something on life support long after you should have let it die a merciful death, it's JEB
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on October 29, 2015 [13 favorites]


There are more Mitts out there.
posted by rhizome at 11:34 AM on October 29, 2015


Also I'm wondering now if Ben Carson is some kind of evil genius.

Well, you're half right.


He's obviously a really smart guy? And deeply cynical about the political process? And pretty evil? But despite all that, he comes across as a benign, calm, bumbler. And he's succeeding at whatever it is he's doing, even if he won't get too much further.

So, evil genius.
posted by zutalors! at 11:50 AM on October 29, 2015


He's obviously a really smart guy?

He's obviously a really well-trained guy who applied his education to a narrow slice (ha) of his chosen field and excelled in it. But he lacks the intellectual rigor to admit that his religion might not have all of the answers to questions that scientists have universally agreed on, nor to investigate political and economic theory that conflicts with his own orthodoxy.

So, not a genius. Just a really good surgeon.
posted by Etrigan at 11:55 AM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah the genius part wasn't like a "to the lab! let's quantify his brain!" comment, really. Just that evil genius is like a thing people say. Also from my read last night he has a surprising amount of political savvy. That's all I meant. I have zero love for his political position at all. I'm curious what his fans are seeing, all I really see from them is "we like Carson."
posted by zutalors! at 12:11 PM on October 29, 2015


He's obviously a really smart guy?

Lots of terrible people are smart. I'd still prefer they not be President.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:13 PM on October 29, 2015


um, last comment but I was not advocating Ben Carson for President.
posted by zutalors! at 12:18 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


All the people saying Jeb Bush is now obviously over are being premature. There's no need in October of the year before the damn election for commentators to pronounce candidates "toast" at this point, except the competition for attention between commentators themselves.
posted by mediareport at 1:18 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Need? Of course not. But there's no reason not to make predictions either. And my prediction is that JEB! is not going to be the nominee.
posted by Justinian at 2:20 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Golly Jeepers! Here's a Bad Lip Reading of the first Democratic Debate.

I wonder what that means.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:47 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, I love predictions. Mine is that there is NO FUCKING WAY Barbara Bush will let her son quit the race before even the first primary is held. That's a proud fucking family.
posted by mediareport at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2015


Maybe. I just don't see what his path to the nomination is at this point. The Republicans instituted a 20% threshold for earning delegates, so if JEB! comes it at 10% in the first couple of primaries he'll gain a total of 0 delegates for that. Where does he make his stand? He's even getting his ass handed to him in Florida.

He's a terrible candidate. He looks tired, uninterested, and like he'd rather be almost anywhere else. Even kind of shell shocked.
posted by Justinian at 3:44 PM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hoover: Jeb! is a legacy, Otter. His brother was an ’00, George W. Bush.
posted by rhizome at 4:47 PM on October 29, 2015


fivethirtyeight.com: Yeah, Jeb Bush Is Probably Toast.
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on October 29, 2015


Last night it seemed like Jeb was on the verge of being like "y'all kids don't pipe down I'm gonna turn this debate right around and go home!"

No White House for anyone!
posted by zutalors! at 6:14 PM on October 29, 2015


All the people saying Jeb Bush is now obviously over are being premature. There's no need in October of the year before the damn election for commentators to pronounce candidates "toast" at this point, except the competition for attention between commentators themselves.

Iowa and New Hampshire are a lot closer than a year away.

I'm pretty sure Jeb! is totally done, but when The Weekly Standard is writing articles where I can't find a single thing wrong I have to suspect it's possible I am in fact wrong on this.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:15 PM on October 29, 2015


3) As I said, Bush’s attack was almost certainly a pre-meditated set piece. Yet he didn’t have the political sense to see that Rubio was in a very good frame coming off of an answer where he beat the snot out of the moderators. Bush had no ability to read the scene and understand that it would have been better in that moment not to take the shot. He had a plan, so he robotically stuck to it.

This is exactly the same mistake Chafee made with Clinton's e-mails. The inability to read the room is not a good sign for a politician, it makes them look like amateurs. One of the major BENEFITS of being a career politician in a country that claims to hate career politicians is that you should know how to avoid shit like that. Maybe reality TV is where future politicians will train instead. It sure prepared Trump.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:18 PM on October 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


That is a terrifying concept
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:41 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


That "Jeb is toast" link had been posted earlier in the thread; again, given the volatility of modern campaigns I still think Silver (and lots of other pundits ohsosure what's going to happen next year a few months from now) are just a little too certain of themselves at this point.

Sure, Jeb's awful on the trail and likely not to win a tea-party driven process, but he's still sitting on a huge warchest despite the recent spate of stories about his spending cuts on staff, and that matters. We'll see if a huge money dump on ads in New Hampshire works for him soon enough. Its his main strategy now and it's just a bit laughable to see so many pundits claiming to know how that's going to play out.
posted by mediareport at 3:37 AM on October 30, 2015


Good overview of the reality and hype about Jeb's demise:

All the money in the world may not save Jeb Bush's campaign

Indeed, there is no question that Bush retains valuable assets for a campaign, starting with a "super-PAC" stuffed with $100 million or more — far more than any of his rivals — and a seasoned staff that knows something about riding the ups and downs of a campaign.

Family history can provide a buoy, too: Bush’s father, George H.W. Bush, was all but written off early in the 1988 presidential campaign before he rallied to win New Hampshire and go on to the presidency.

“It’s too early to suggest it’s over,” said Ed Rogers, a veteran Republican strategist who experienced that campaign and went on to serve in the elder Bush's White House.

“A lot of what matters lies in front of us, not behind us,” Rogers said.

At minimum, however, the problems Bush has faced this fall have raised the stakes for him in the first few nominating contests, making it all but essential that he win at least one of the first three — in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. Currently, his best showing among those is fourth place in an average of New Hampshire polls.

posted by mediareport at 4:06 AM on October 30, 2015


When the most optimistic view of your campaign is that you need to win one of three states where your current best showing is 4th place and single digits you know the fat lady has put on her giant winged helmet.
posted by Justinian at 5:07 AM on October 30, 2015


More seriously, what odds would you take on JEB! at the current time, mediareport? 5-1? 7-1?
posted by Justinian at 5:08 AM on October 30, 2015


I don't put much stock in the current numbers. I'm going to be surprised if the GOP silly season doesn't start winding up as fear of an inevitable Clinton presidency sets in. No one in their right mind, no matter their political beliefs, could think Carson could defeat Clinton in the general election.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:29 AM on October 30, 2015


Indeed, there is no question that Bush retains valuable assets for a campaign, starting with a "super-PAC" stuffed with $100 million or more...

I have to question the analytical wisdom of a publication that still feels it necessary to put quotes around super-PAC. It's a thing, LA Times. We know about these "super-PACs" already.
posted by Etrigan at 5:30 AM on October 30, 2015


These days, the LAT is a "newspaper."
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:32 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Anecdata: I remember seeing similar coverage about how, while Perry's campaign had no money, his Super PAC was still completely loaded. Then, of course he dropped out. At this point, I just don't know.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:30 AM on October 30, 2015


I'm just still stunned that anyone is thinking that any of the current republican candidates are viable.
posted by odinsdream at 7:05 AM on October 30, 2015


Yep, I checked and Perry's super-PAC had $17 million on hand, $11 million of which had come from just two donors, and most of which was quickly returned to the donors. It's a good point, thanks.
posted by mediareport at 7:07 AM on October 30, 2015


I'm just still stunned that anyone is thinking that any of the current republican candidates are viable.

Well, there's really no getting around it: it's going to be one of them. Maybe (god, hopefully) none of them are viable in the general, but one of those people is going to be the Republican presidential candidate.

Tremble.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've been hearing more muttering about Kasich, who is clearly trying to put himself forward as The Only Sane One (Who Is Also From The Most Important Swing State).

He's signed a shitton of anti-abortion legislation into law, but he also set up a task force to address police violence after Tamir Rice, and he appears to be actually somewhat committed to criminal justice reform. While shitty on the environment, he admits global warming exists. He supports the ACA. He's moderated his stance on immigration.

If you asked me to pick which of these candidates would have the best chance in the general, I'd probably say him. But whether he can get the nomination is... well his polling sure isn't great is it? His best shot might be if this primary is so indecisive that it goes to a brokered convention.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:06 AM on October 30, 2015


from the GOP: Letter from RNC Chairman Reince Priebus to NBC News
CNBC billed the debate as one that would focus on “the key issues that matter to all voters—job growth, taxes, technology, retirement and the health of our national economy.” That was not the case. Before the debate, the candidates were promised an opening question on economic or financial matters. That was not the case. Candidates were promised that speaking time would be carefully monitored to ensure fairness. That was not the case. Questions were inaccurate or downright offensive. The first question directed to one of our candidates asked if he was running a comic book version of a presidential campaign, hardly in the spirit of how the debate was billed.

While debates are meant to include tough questions and contrast candidates’ visions and policies for the future of America, CNBC’s moderators engaged in a series of “gotcha” questions, petty and mean-spirited in tone, and designed to embarrass our candidates. What took place Wednesday night was not an attempt to give the American people a greater understanding of our candidates’ policies and ideas.
2016 Republicans vs. the media. Republican Tensions at CNBC Boil Over During and After Debate. Cruz Rips Press At CNBC Debate: "This Debate Illustrates Why We Can Not Trust The Media". The Insiders: CNBC has probably changed GOP presidential campaign debates forever.

Stop annotating debate transcripts, WaPo! Nobody cares that the candidates are actually lying.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:34 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]




From futz's link:
GOP candidates didn’t just have a field day at CNBC’s expense during the actual debate. Ted Cruz and Ben Carson sent emails to supporters asking for donations to help fight media bias.

“Friend, I am declaring war on the liberal media, and I need to ask a personal favor from you. We need your immediate help to fight back — do that by clicking here to donate $35, $50 or $1,000,” Cruz wrote.
Hence, what this entire foofaraw is really all about. It's becoming increasingly obvious that this whole Bad Moderators/Media Bias controversy is a GOP narrative that was concocted well before the debate even took place.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:25 PM on October 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


The Republican primary season makes a lot more sense if you view the whole thing as multi-level marketing scheme.
posted by octothorpe at 12:36 PM on October 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


I can't think of a more dystopian debate slogan than YOUR MONEY * YOUR VOTE. What the hell is that about?
posted by odinsdream at 12:36 PM on October 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


What the hell is that about?

Libertarian/propertian leaning to AnCap tendencies in Republican base. See it sometimes: people should only vote w/r/t economic issues, large property owners should have more votes, why can't S-corps vote too . . . corporations are people.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:48 PM on October 30, 2015


Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.), who had a breakthrough moment in the debate railing against the moderators’ insulting questions, did a follow-up interview with Fox News anchor Bret Baier and reiterated a pretty good suggestion about the debate structure. Cruz asked why the Republican National Committee doesn’t plan at least one debate with Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Mark Levin as moderators.

I love this idea. Give the people what they want.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:53 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Limbaugh, Hannity and Levin? I would totally watch that.
posted by octothorpe at 12:57 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bush retains valuable assets for a campaign, starting with a "super-PAC" stuffed with $100 million or more

That depresses the hell out off me. All of that money wasted on this fucking political farce.

I know that the money is not going to evaporate into thin air-- that it will be spent on writers and workers and printers, and advertising-- but it is so hard to see all of those millions being given to elect someone when it could have been put to better use. A hundred million dollars would buy a hell of an art museum. It would allow for a lot of children to go to college. It would pay for a lot of infrastructure and green spaces. Ugh. I loathe how our political process has become a landscape of wasteful greed with no actual benefit to anyone except the person who wins the office and her or his corporate donors.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:54 PM on October 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


"silence any dissent"
So let's see. The GOP has canceled a debate on NBC. Three upcoming debates are scheduled on Fox News and Fox Business, but there are other Republican debates scheduled to take place on CNN and Salem Radio (twice), CBS, and ABC.

Will those media organizations stick up for NBC the way the rest of the media stuck up for Fox in '09? They should say that they no longer intend to be part of their debates, unless NBC's broadcast rights are restored.

But they won't. Instead, they'll kowtow to any of the party's demands (and to demands from the angry Republican candidates who are getting together to demand that the debate hosts lick their boots).

None of this rises to the level of "silencing tactics," you see. It's OK if you're a Republican.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:13 PM on October 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Limbaugh, Hannity and Levin? I would totally watch that.

Whew. For a second there, I thought you were suggesting a Fuck/Marry/Kill.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:17 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


NY Times: Jeb Bush’s campaign has 10 paid staff members in Iowa, it has made 70,380 phone calls to state Republicans and it has collected 5,000 email addresses. For all that, it has recruited just four volunteers statewide and has identified only 1,260 supporters.

Poor Jeb!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:11 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Phone calls" is a weird metric, for what it's worth, because the overwhelming majority of dials don't result in anyone picking up. The media likes to report things that sound like impressive call numbers, but 95+% of those go to voicemail, at which point the caller or auto-dialler hangs up.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:23 PM on October 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


112-page internal PowerPoint show summarizing Jeb!'s strategy leaked to U.S. News: here. It's fascinating.
posted by carmicha at 5:40 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Poor Poppy.
posted by rhizome at 7:52 PM on October 30, 2015


Here's a fun slide.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:50 PM on October 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


That is just surreal to read. Like we all know this sort of analysis happens, it's just weird to see it laid out there like the Q3 Earnings Report of Widgetco. Maybe the weirdest part is change some names and this could be any candidate.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:16 PM on October 30, 2015


Here's a fun slide.

The dude can't even stack the deck right.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:42 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Derail, but your username is annoying because when I go to bask in my favorites it looks like I should have one more than I do. One from Ray Walston, and one from Luck Dragon.


Do not let this stop you from continuing to be a member of the venerable often favorites my comments club.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:04 AM on October 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Here's a fun slide.

Republicans don't hate him quite as much as they hate Hillary Clinton! What more could any candidate ask for?
posted by aubilenon at 1:32 AM on October 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


It's worth noting that that particular poll is a public one, from Quinnipiac. People might have more fun if they dig through the slides generated based on the campaign's internal polls.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:35 PM on October 31, 2015


112-page internal PowerPoint show summarizing Jeb!'s strategy leaked to U.S. News: here. It's fascinating.

Wow. Too bad Jeb! doesn't look like he wants the job, everything else looks ok.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:05 AM on November 1, 2015


Tonight reps for the GOP candidates will be meeting to discuss how to improve the upcoming debates. Carson thinks all 14 of the candidates should be on stage, Trump wants fewer than 10.
The list of possible reforms to future Republican debates is growing as several campaigns get ready for a Sunday evening meeting in a northern Virginia hotel. And there is one point of agreement among some of them: Republican National Committee chairman Reince Priebus has let them down, as have the television network hosts, and it is time for the candidates to have more say in the process.
My favorite quote from an unnamed source: "They've got the biggest new TV show of the fall! The networks are making tons of money off of us. We should be telling them what to do. Reince is moving now because feels like he's going to be dumped by the next nominee, because of how badly he's botched this."

The networks are making money off this!!! Oh noes!!! How can we get some of that sweet, sweet dough? I'm sure the fundraising increases every time they are on air, but maybe not for all 14 candidates.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:07 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


We can put a man on the moon; we can figure out how to put 14 people on the stage.

Right. We can solve the problems of lunar travel, we can totally solve the problem of two. Hours divided by fourteen people equalling less than ten minutes each. What's the hold up here?
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on November 1, 2015


"Questions from moderators about someone’s morality are uncalled for and that’s the kind of approach we’d like to see changed," said Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the campaign manager of her father, Mike Huckabee. "There is a real desire from our campaigns and others for more substance. We’re going to talk about possible options to move in that direction, such as bringing in organization heads or non-journalists as moderators to have a debate that is focused on the issues that matter to Republicans."

So Rebublicans aren't interested in morality?
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on November 1, 2015


They're only interested in other people's morality, silly. Or rather, they're only interested in other people's "morality."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:09 AM on November 1, 2015


I mean, as a counterpoint, were there a lot of questions about morality at the Democratic debate? Did anyone ask Lincoln Chafee if he was a cartoon character candidate to his face?
posted by Going To Maine at 7:12 AM on November 1, 2015


They asked a Benghazi question, that seems sort of equivalent to asking Ben Carlson about the quack medicine he pedals.
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on November 1, 2015


I'm thinking more about asking Trump if he's a comic book villain.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:34 AM on November 1, 2015


There was the complete BS question about Sanders taking a honeymoon in the USSR.

Nothing CNBC asked was out of the ordinary for Presidential debates at all. The whining about it just reached an epic level this time for some reason.

Maybe reality TV is where future politicians will train instead. It sure prepared Trump.
-
"They've got the biggest new TV show of the fall! The networks are making tons of money off of us.


See what I'm saying? What better than reality TV to prepare you for a reality TV contest?
posted by Drinky Die at 7:37 AM on November 1, 2015




Mainly I am seeing 14 grifters not wanting the debates to be an impediment to their gravy train. They should just give them eight minutes each to make a short speech, demonstrate a talent and pass a hat around the audience, then the eventual candidate should be decided by lottery.
posted by Artw at 8:41 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


What could possibly be the point in portraying there to be *14* viable candidates?
posted by rhizome at 10:18 AM on November 1, 2015


Mainly I am seeing 14 grifters not wanting the debates to be an impediment to their gravy train.

I can see the argument that some candidates are running a grift, but Carly Fiorina really doesn’t need this in her life if she doesn’t want the candidacy.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2015


Carly Fiorina really doesn’t need this in her life if she doesn’t want the candidacy.

I don't know, though - who doesn't want a bunch of rubes to finance a yearlong PR campaign for them while they gallivant around the country? Especially when you can move the needle from "that CEO who destroyed Hewlett Packard" to "that superficially-competent-seeming businessperson who is running for President"?

I tend to think of it less as outright grift (though that certainly seems to fit in e.g. Huckabee's case) and more as an extended audition for national political relevance, subsidized by either hapless small donors (Carson, Huckabee) or the more usual crew of SuperPAC corporate donors. She might not need the pocket money the way Huckabee seems to, but she's certainly benefiting from the profile-raising and the improvements to her public image, and I'm guessing that she won't end up paying a dime for the marketing campaign (at least if she's even half as smart of a businessperson as she claims to be - and a cursory google makes it seem like even if she is self-funding to some extent, she'll be made whole before her campaign staffers even get paid).
posted by dialetheia at 2:19 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


“Primaries are what keep the GOP out of the White House,” Paul Goldman and Mark J. Rozell, Reuters, 28 October 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 5:14 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Recently, maybe. Bush wasn't that long ago there.

And If only the insanity and self serving bullshit on display in primaries kept them out of everywhere else.
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on November 1, 2015


My favorite quote from an unnamed source: "They've got the biggest new TV show of the fall! The networks are making tons of money off of us. We should be telling them what to do. Reince is moving now because feels like he's going to be dumped by the next nominee, because of how badly he's botched this."

This has to be Trump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:27 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Read the letter that Ben Ginsberg drafted for the GOP summit

Can you pledge that the temperature in the hall be kept below 67 degrees?
posted by Drinky Die at 7:25 PM on November 1, 2015


How Jeb Bush may have just outsourced a key part of his campaign

The "leak," like so many "leaks," may have been an intentional move to pass information to a pro-Bush super PAC.

Not sure I buy it. I think when they want to coordinate they just pick up the phone and coordinate. The enforcement is toothless.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:45 PM on November 1, 2015


I don't know, though - who doesn't want a bunch of rubes to finance a yearlong PR campaign for them while they gallivant around the country?

So many people don’t want this. The word “gallivant” is honestly a bit glib for what a run entails.

Especially when you can move the needle from "that CEO who destroyed Hewlett Packard" to "that superficially-competent-seeming businessperson who is running for President"?*

But move it with whom? I mean, at this point Fiorina is “that CEO who destroyed Hewlett Packard and was roundly rejected by the voters of California”. Getting to add “and was rejected by the voters of America” is really not much of a perk. From a grand drama perspective, I love the idea that Fiorina is trying to redeem herself by getting elected President, but that’s hardly a grift.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:00 PM on November 1, 2015


Only one president ever has gotten into the office without first being an elected official, cabinet secretary, or high-ranking general. (It's Chester A. Arthur, who got there by being VP when the other guy died.) Fiorina and Carson are both in that category. They are just not serious candidates and should absolutely not be treated as such.
posted by miyabo at 2:05 AM on November 2, 2015


Drinky Die: "Read the letter that Ben Ginsberg drafted for the GOP summit

Can you pledge that the temperature in the hall be kept below 67 degrees?
"

Waiting for the brown M&M stipulation.
posted by octothorpe at 6:14 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Only one president ever has gotten into the office without first being an elected official, cabinet secretary, or high-ranking general. (It's Chester A. Arthur, who got there by being VP when the other guy died.) Fiorina and Carson are both in that category. They are just not serious candidates and should absolutely not be treated as such.

Pedantry: Arthur did serve as a brigadier general in the Civil War, albeit in the quartermaster department.

Also, while someone with no elective/cabinet/general qualifications may never have won, they have been nominated by a major party. Wendell Willkie may not have been a very good candidate, but he certainly was the candidate of the Republican Party for president.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:50 AM on November 2, 2015


Raise your hand if you only know about Wendell Wilkie from Bugs Bunny cartoons.
posted by octothorpe at 7:11 AM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


As the epic, historic post-debate drama unfolded and RNC Chair Reince Priebus wrote NBC out of the RNC book of life/debates last week, one of our readers made a pretty obvious point. If this were a matter of the President or the White House or Congress or the Democrats axing Fox News, not only would there be a chorus of whining from Fox (understandable enough) but all the other networks would almost certainly be coming together to support Fox on free press grounds.

And here? Well, as far as I can see basically no one, neither the networks institutionally nor the high profile journalists have said anything about the RNC's fairly comical decision to ax NBC news.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:40 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Fiorina and Carson are both in that category. They are just not serious candidates and should absolutely not be treated as such.

… but I think that Fiorina’s run is sincerely motivated. Carson, maybe less so, but I’m not certain about that either. I mean, a running feature of campaign reporting stories has been that running is predicated on a kind of insanity. (e.g. Losers: The Road To Everyplace but the White House)
posted by Going To Maine at 8:35 AM on November 2, 2015


Lessig is out.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:50 AM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Dang. I’d like to think that the DNC will be held accountable for locking him out at some point in the future, but it’s a 99.9% bet that they won’t. That money conversation really needs to be held, though. I guess we’re still not ready for it. Apparently only Donald Trump gets to speak the truth…
posted by Going To Maine at 12:15 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]






Say what you will about the wacky clown-car of a republican primary but they're getting 90% of the press right now. Even here in a thread titled "Democratic Debate 2015" we're spending most of our time talking about the GOP.
posted by octothorpe at 1:29 PM on November 2, 2015


I'm okay with the Dems not being sufficiently a horrifying clown show.
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on November 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


Republicans’ Demands For Upcoming Debates
All moderators to be quarantined from society 18 months prior to debate to eliminate bias
Statute of limitations prohibiting questioning candidate about any statements made more than 60 seconds in the past
Mechanized, continuously rotating debate stage gives every candidate equal time at center podium

posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on November 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


That last point seems reasonable. But how about this- we take the holographic will.i.am technology showcased during the 2008 presidential election, and project the currently speaking candidate at the center podium. The other podiums will be blank monoliths, or better yet, something like the scramble suits from A Scanner Darkly, projecting a million and a half random assemblages of idealized forms of Republican and conservative figures while the center hologram speaks.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:39 PM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hologram Reagan polls better than any of these losers.
posted by box at 3:53 AM on November 3, 2015


President Obama on Monday mocked Republican presidential candidates as thin-skinned for lashing out at CNBC over the network’s handling of last week’s primary debate.

“They say, ‘when I talk to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin, he’s going to straighten out,'" he said at a Democratic National Committee fundraiser in New York City. "And then it turns out they can’t handle a bunch of CNBC moderators."

“If you can’t handle those guys, I don’t think the Chinese and the Russians are going to be too worried about you,” Obama added.

posted by octothorpe at 4:22 AM on November 3, 2015 [14 favorites]


When they get that 3am phone call, are they going to be able to give the reporter on the other end an answer to their question?
posted by rhizome at 9:24 AM on November 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hologram Reagan polls better than any of these losers.

Forget Reagan - I want to know how well George Bush pere and fils poll against these guys.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2015


"If you can't handle those guys, I don't think the Chinese and the Russians are going to be too worried about you," Obama added.

Another one for the highlight reel.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


As if Obama were willing to conduct his talks with Putin in front of cameras and a live studio audience.
posted by straight at 1:35 PM on November 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but maybe this whole GOP tiff with CNBC is because Trump is still sore with NBC for dropping him from Celebrity Apprentice and not broadcasting his pageant?
posted by FJT at 10:25 AM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]




Carson is one of those Republicans who it feels like you are slandering when you just quote him directly.
posted by straight at 8:46 AM on November 5, 2015 [7 favorites]


Here is Ben Carson’s gesture. The good doctor rightly observed that the blacks like rap, and so he made the blacks a li’l rap song.

Given that Ben Carson is black, I find this phrasing very uncomfortable.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2015




"Here is Ben Carson’s gesture. The good doctor rightly observed that the blacks like rap, and so he made the blacks a li’l rap song."

Given that Ben Carson is black, I find this phrasing very uncomfortable.


So is the author. I like to think that It would be difficult for a liberal-leaning white author to get away with using the phrase "the blacks" like that.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:31 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but maybe this whole GOP tiff with CNBC is because Trump is still sore with NBC for dropping him from Celebrity Apprentice and not broadcasting his pageant?

If so, it's not stopping him from going on SNL this week.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:56 AM on November 5, 2015


Yeah, NBC didn't decide to drop Trump from the Apprentice they were legally required to do it.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 PM on November 5, 2015


Carson's craziness explained by Amanda Marcotte. You may have noticed him using the words "secular progressives" today, which reinforces this theory.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:45 PM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, NBC didn't decide to drop Trump from the Apprentice they were legally required to do it.
“Due to the recent derogatory statements by Donald Trump regarding immigrants, NBCUniversal is ending its business relationship with Mr. Trump.”
If they were legally required to drop him, he wouldn't be on SNL either.
posted by Etrigan at 4:13 PM on November 5, 2015


Slate remixes the Carson Rap
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:05 PM on November 5, 2015


My names Ben Carson and I'm here to say...
Earth was created inside seven days!
posted by Artw at 5:40 PM on November 5, 2015


If they were legally required to drop him, he wouldn't be on SNL either.

His appearance on SNL does mean that other candidates would be required to be given equal time and access if they asked for it. But since it's a one-time thing late at night on a weekend they clearly think it's worth doing and nobody will bother asking.

Apprentice is a different matter. An hour of weekly prime time access.

Yeah, you're right that it isn't technically true they were legally required to drop Trump. But if they had not dropped Trump and had aired episodes of him on Apprentice during the campaign they would have been required to give all the other candidates an hour of free prime time programming every week.

So it is more accurate to say that they couldn't legally show Trump on the Apprentice during the campaign without major consequences so there was no cost to dropping him. But I abbreviated that, perhaps too much.

Note that Clinton's appearance on SNL also meant other Democratic candidates could ask for equal time.
posted by Justinian at 7:45 PM on November 5, 2015


Sort of, but not really.
posted by Etrigan at 8:30 PM on November 5, 2015


Kyle Cheney at Politico: “Ben Carson admits fabricating West Point scholarship”
posted by Going To Maine at 12:14 PM on November 6, 2015


Every time I see a scandal that looks big enough to overcome the IOKIYAR factor I'm proven wrong, so I really don't know how much this will hurt Carson. Early returns from the rightopshere are mixed, but it's definitely true that when things get tough, blaming the media is a strategy that has almost never failed them.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:22 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Carson looked unhinged at his press conference.
posted by Justinian at 4:57 PM on November 6, 2015


Any bets on how boring this "debate" is tonight?
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on November 6, 2015


Wait what is this? It's not even a debate? Oh come on.

Over under on O'Malley putting me to sleep: 3.2 minutes.
posted by Justinian at 5:05 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Martin O'Malley: we're all going to hell
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:11 PM on November 6, 2015


god I thought he'd never stop talking
posted by Justinian at 5:33 PM on November 6, 2015


Maybe he didn't. Maybe you died, and this is now a whole Jacob's Ladder deal, and we'll pan out in a couple hours to you laying still on the floor where you've fallen while O'Malley keeps talking, and talking, and talking forever.
posted by cortex at 5:42 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


These Hellraiser sequels just get worse and worse...
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actually, I loved the forum debate. I really felt like everyone won; they got tough questions, and they answered them. I really hope the Republicans use that format for the next one.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:52 PM on November 6, 2015


Bernie doesn't like buzzers and alerts and wants peace and quiet.




Might be running for the wrong job.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:54 PM on November 6, 2015


At first I was like 'yay, books,' and then I was like 'oh yeah, that guy's old.'
posted by box at 4:42 AM on November 7, 2015


Huh, there was another debate last night? Weird, that got zero publicity. I read political news constantly and there was nothing about it.
posted by octothorpe at 5:04 AM on November 7, 2015


It was a pretty sane and reasonable series of one-on-ones, give or take some pretty dumb "comedy" questions nobody touched much. Bernie was passionate, Clinton seemed slightly insincere by comparison, O'Malley was there.
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on November 7, 2015


I'm actually beginning to warm to the guy a little, but that may just be that after paying attention to Republicans far too much anybody in the saneosphere looks good.
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on November 7, 2015 [1 favorite]




Was there a better answer to that 'which Republican would be your vp?' thing? I feel like there might've been, but I'm not sure what it is.
posted by box at 4:48 PM on November 7, 2015


It was a very, very silly question.
posted by Artw at 4:51 PM on November 7, 2015


I didn't really feel like I learned anything new. But then I follow politics a hell of a lot closer than the general public (as does anyone reading this in all likelihood) so perhaps I wasn't the target audience.
posted by Justinian at 9:36 PM on November 7, 2015




Except for Larry David, the anti Trump aspects of the show seem to have been more against the network than the guy. An odd episode, probably not as significant as current commentary portrays. I'm sure Trump doesn't care one way or the other.
posted by rhizome at 1:12 AM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Washington Post: A Lot of People Just Don't Like Ted Cruz
Cruz does not appear to be bothered. The senator and presidential candidate seems to relish the fact that so many fellow Republicans love to hate him. On the trail, the Texas Republican fondly recounts his skirmishes. His campaign blasts out fundraising e-mails quoting the critical words. When Boehner called Cruz a jackass, his campaign’s solicitation quoted him as saying, “I will wear it as a badge of honor because I refuse to join their club.” A super PAC supporting Cruz released a radio spot Tuesday boasting that Boehner referred to Cruz as a “a pain in the you-know-what.”
TL;DR Cruz is an asshole and back-stabber but he relishes being an "outsider."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on November 9, 2015




TL;DR Cruz is an asshole and back-stabber but he relishes being an "outsider."

He isn't there to make friends.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:22 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


He's such an iconoclast
posted by rhizome at 8:22 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's true - he's always running into Orthodox churches and destroying their holy pictures. He doesn't care what the Empress Irene thinks of him!
posted by Chrysostom at 10:06 PM on November 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


Hey, are we using this thread for tonight's GOP debate discussion?
posted by Chrysostom at 1:03 PM on November 10, 2015


Another one?! My poor liver can only take so much.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Good news, then--Christie and Huckabee won't be at the grown-up table for this one.
posted by box at 2:37 PM on November 10, 2015


> It's true - he's always running into Orthodox churches and destroying their holy pictures. He doesn't care what the Empress Irene thinks of him!
posted by Chrysostom at 10:06 PM on November 9 [6 favorites −] [!]


Let it be known upon this day that I will without hesitation cast my vote for any candidate who openly announces that they are in fact an iconodule rather than an iconoclast.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:41 PM on November 10, 2015


Hey, are we using this thread for tonight's GOP debate discussion?

It doesn't seem worth making a new thread, so we might as well.
posted by homunculus at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2015




More like Rolling Stone's Guide to Liver Damage
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2015


Oh, man, there's totally a power outage in my neighborhood, and I'm sitting on my porch reading MeFi on my phone. Paint me a picture with words, y'all.
posted by box at 6:01 PM on November 10, 2015


I hate it when the GOP brags about Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt. Neither would find a home in today's Republican Party.
posted by carmicha at 6:03 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rubio seems like the only one who is genuinely happy to be there.
posted by homunculus at 6:04 PM on November 10, 2015


"My grandfather died of black lung, half-blinded, and you can, too."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


"The IMF says the policies of the last generation might actually be complete poppycock. Thanks, Obama."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:18 PM on November 10, 2015


Jeb's doing the Webb.
posted by homunculus at 6:18 PM on November 10, 2015


"Carson: I hate it when people say I'm a liar because of the lies I tell."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:30 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]




Rubio seems like the only one who is genuinely happy to be there.

It's in Milwaukee, of course none of them are happy to be there.
posted by drezdn at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2015


Trump: "Laws. Walls. Israel. I like Ike. Immigrants. Send them back. Laws are walls and walls are laws."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:37 PM on November 10, 2015


Eisenhower wouldn't have given Trump the time of day.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


This English moderator might be an actual journalist, watch out
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:40 PM on November 10, 2015


Uh oh. Rubio starting to look parched.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:03 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]


Did Cruz abolish the department of commerce twice?
posted by Drinky Die at 7:03 PM on November 10, 2015


Yup. And Rubio said there is no greater job than being a president, not even being president.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:04 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Cruz should have learned from Perry's '12 flub.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:08 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rand just owned Trump so hard they let him filibuster the commercial break.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:15 PM on November 10, 2015


"Everyone go in!" Gang Bang in the Middle East!
posted by homunculus at 7:24 PM on November 10, 2015


Putin to walk out a surprise guest in 3...2...1...
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2015


Josh Marshall: No getting around it, this debate is just amazingly boring.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:34 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


We want the king of Jordan to rule for 1,000 years? WTF?
posted by homunculus at 7:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Kasich: Hillary might get elected, which would be a disaster, because I have teenage girls
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:36 PM on November 10, 2015




"the explosion of natural gas"
posted by Drinky Die at 8:09 PM on November 10, 2015


Huh, Lou Dobbs is apparently still on TV for some reason.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:19 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


I really wanted to snark at all this but I was too busy playing Fallout 4.
posted by Justinian at 8:21 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]


For your random dose of casual sexism, Trump attacked Fiorina for interrupting during the debate (and I just saw him repeat it post debate), but multiple other candidates, including Trump, had a lot more total time to speak during the debate and Kasich did a lot more interrupting.

I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for someone like Fiorina who has very likely had to confront that sort of bias against women speaking up for her entire career even as a member of the 1%.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:39 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]


To be fair, it's a perception she's earned -- she had the most interruptions in the second debate, tied for first October 28th, and had the second-most tonight. Of course, Trump has often been right behind her on that count, so he's not the best person to object.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:04 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


As far as I can tell, "Aren't we great? Forget that evil liberal CNBC!" has been a very big part of the Fox Business mission for the night.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:15 PM on November 10, 2015


homunculus: "We want the king of Jordan to rule for 1,000 years? WTF?"

That was just a mistake, he meant Leto II.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:36 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]


Forget that evil liberal CNBC!

I think that's just the motto of Fox Business

It's on the stationery
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]


Conventional wisdom: No major impact on race, Trump is winner.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:49 PM on November 10, 2015


I'm glad that Trump did well, because I'd rather he be in the lead than Carson, even if (as people say) neither of them will win the nomination and it'll end up between Rubio and Cruz.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:37 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]




Three Quick Observations About Last Night’s Debate, by Tod Kelly.
I tend to believe it’s usually better to let idiots and charlatans tie their own nooses around their own necks.

For example, last night there were a lot — a lot — of examples where candidates would say in one breath that we needed to wipe away any and all government regulation and let the market decide everything. And then in the very next sentence they would insist on some kind of sweeping government regulation that, for example, told banks how they had to spend or invest their money, or how big they were or were not allowed to get. And they’d just go on and on about how they would force these things on corporations. And then they’d wrap up by saying how much they would never have the government interfere or make regulations.

I’m not sure you need a moderator to point these things out to people. I think people who care enough to watch a debate can, quite likely, actually dress themselves in the morning on their very own, without help from their parents, just like a big kid.
posted by Rangi at 4:01 PM on November 11, 2015


I suspect he's overestimating the intellectual competence of the target market.
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]




Tod Kelly sounds like he stopped thinking about how politics works in America in 8th grade.
Not able to use their time needling the moderators, Trump and Carson especially were forced to actually answer questions, and it made each of them look terrible. They each looked uninformed and over their heads.
I don't know how this particular instance of them looking foolish and ignorant was so much more revealing than all their previous instances.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:48 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Since this thread is about to close, and we've got a bunch more debates to get through, I'm wondering if we ought to move the whole business over to FanFare.
posted by ogooglebar at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


That's a depressingly accurate analysis of politics as spectacle.

Does FanFare do posts at the episode or series level? "Presidential Election 2016" is probably the proper name for the series. I don't know how we distinguish individual episodes.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2015


As in "The GOP had another ... episode today"?
posted by aubilenon at 11:11 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]


That's a depressingly accurate analysis of politics as spectacle.

Sadly, the spectacle aspect was one consideration when I was considering my comment. Three months ago, I would have found the idea too embarrassing to propose.
posted by ogooglebar at 11:27 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


You guys, I am really not looking forward to the season finale.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


> I'm wondering if we ought to move the whole business over to FanFare.

People are looking at me funny for loudly guffawing in the middle of stuff.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


The series can be Election 2016 and each episode can be a debate or primary/caucus and we can talk about how the guy playing Ted Cruz is maybe a little too method
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:48 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


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