"a very fundamental, biological need to be liked"
October 22, 2015 11:23 AM Subscribe
"What is Social Anxiety Disorder?": The Atlantic's Olga Khazan interviews Stefan G. Hofmann, the director of the Social Anxiety Program at Boston University. (SLTheAtlantic)
I've got some pretty terrible social anxiety and CBT helped a lot. Mine did not involve creating situations like that but it did involve facing and feeling fear.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:41 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:41 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
They will report that they are not in control of their body, of their anxiety response, that others will see how anxious they are, and then they will try to avoid, to get out of the situation and escape.
This is the worst for me. "I'm anxious that everyone will know how anxious I am." Thank you very much, brain spiral-falling helplessly out of control!
posted by naju at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is the worst for me. "I'm anxious that everyone will know how anxious I am." Thank you very much, brain spiral-falling helplessly out of control!
posted by naju at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Holy fucking Christ. CBT worked wonders for me but if I'd had to do any of the social mishap scenarios in that article I think I would have spontaneously combusted.
("Fortunately," I'm so highly strung they just had me go in a few shops and make inconvenient requests like change for a nickel)
posted by Merzbau at 11:44 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
("Fortunately," I'm so highly strung they just had me go in a few shops and make inconvenient requests like change for a nickel)
posted by Merzbau at 11:44 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was really interested in this article because I've also been in therapy for social anxiety. The thing that was most helpful for me was focusing on concrete things, like maintaining eye contact or continuing to elaborate even when I felt like I was finished speaking.
I would be worried that engaging in the scenarios as described would be counterproductive. Like how if you want to get a tan, it doesn't work to go out in the sun for 8 hours in one day. You'll just get horrible burns. It also doesn't work to just go out for 10 minutes every day. You've got to gradually increase the exposure.
posted by zixyer at 11:49 AM on October 22, 2015
I would be worried that engaging in the scenarios as described would be counterproductive. Like how if you want to get a tan, it doesn't work to go out in the sun for 8 hours in one day. You'll just get horrible burns. It also doesn't work to just go out for 10 minutes every day. You've got to gradually increase the exposure.
posted by zixyer at 11:49 AM on October 22, 2015
Yeah, those examples seemed a little -- self-centered -- to me. I mean, just because the therapist is comfortable being an asshole...
Alternative: Ask angry bears for their number. "Bear! Don't tear up my card! What you doing Bear?! Why are you doing this Bear!?"
posted by smidgen at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Alternative: Ask angry bears for their number. "Bear! Don't tear up my card! What you doing Bear?! Why are you doing this Bear!?"
posted by smidgen at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Seriously, I had issues just asking normal inquisitive questions or flagging waiters -- I just did those things to get better -- I didn't need to flip over tables or inquire about people's genitals or whatever.
posted by smidgen at 11:51 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by smidgen at 11:51 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can see the reasoning behind this kind of extreme exposure exercise, but I'm sure there are ways to set it up that don't require harassing strangers.
Yeah, that struck me immediately as "The Strange, Surprising Overlap Between CBT and PUA". Effective, I'm sure, but not great.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:55 AM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Yeah, that struck me immediately as "The Strange, Surprising Overlap Between CBT and PUA". Effective, I'm sure, but not great.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:55 AM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
I've seen that "ask every woman here for her number" exercise in articles about PUA courses. Great to see psychologists taking their cues from such esteemed places!
posted by naju at 11:56 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 11:56 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I took a "growth training" back in the dark ages, and chatting up total strangers was part of one of the exercises. As I was a journalist, it wasn't much of a stretch for me, but some people were terrified, did it any way, and were both relieved and elated to have finished the exercise.
I wonder if because so much time is spent online, for some people, doing anything in public with others is very scary. Practice makes a lot of things easier.
posted by Ideefixe at 12:14 PM on October 22, 2015
I wonder if because so much time is spent online, for some people, doing anything in public with others is very scary. Practice makes a lot of things easier.
posted by Ideefixe at 12:14 PM on October 22, 2015
I think my problem isn't rejection - I just shrug that off when it happens - but rather people thinking I'm an asshole. I just feel like bothering strangers with unwanted conversation is being an asshole in most situations outside of parties, and I'm not sure how to fix that or if it needs to be fixed. I read so much about men bothering women with unwanted attention, for example, that naturally my default is to just... not do that? I think I'd need to get on board with the idea that it's okay on some base level before I can even think about exercises and such.
posted by naju at 12:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by naju at 12:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
The threat of having to do CBT was enough for me to start taking baby steps on my own instead.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
I think my problem isn't rejection - I just shrug that off when it happens - but rather people thinking I'm an asshole.
Oh, yeah, that. The idea of having to do an exercise that has me deliberately bothering people to no good purpose (from their perspective) is completely horrifying to me. I have enough trouble with things that should be no problem, or things where I am totally entitled to the attention of a total stranger due to the circumstances; using non-consenting people to aid my personal growth is never going to happen. I'm getting past the age where random men bother me too much (yay!), but I remember how skin-crawlingly horrible it was much too well.
posted by skybluepink at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, yeah, that. The idea of having to do an exercise that has me deliberately bothering people to no good purpose (from their perspective) is completely horrifying to me. I have enough trouble with things that should be no problem, or things where I am totally entitled to the attention of a total stranger due to the circumstances; using non-consenting people to aid my personal growth is never going to happen. I'm getting past the age where random men bother me too much (yay!), but I remember how skin-crawlingly horrible it was much too well.
posted by skybluepink at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I agree that it's a weird exercise and not something I would be comfortable doing or having done to me, but the people in here who are aghast at the haphazard-asking-out thing are potentially reinforcing the very fears that cause social anxiety.
I struggled with social things, and romantic things, for YEARS because I was afraid of inconveniencing or otherwise upsetting people. (And I still do sometimes, although I have a wonderful girlfriend now.) I didn't want to "creep anybody out". Those are good impulses but if you let them dictate your life you are not gonna be a happy person.
The people who seek CBT for anxiety have a terrible, life-stifling affliction. I know that unwanted male attention can be uncomfortable or even frightening for a lot of women, and that's not unwarranted, but does the temporary discomfort of the "victim" outweigh the benefit of something potentially deeply healing to "perpetrator"? I honestly don't know myself. Life is complicated.
posted by mellow seas at 12:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I struggled with social things, and romantic things, for YEARS because I was afraid of inconveniencing or otherwise upsetting people. (And I still do sometimes, although I have a wonderful girlfriend now.) I didn't want to "creep anybody out". Those are good impulses but if you let them dictate your life you are not gonna be a happy person.
The people who seek CBT for anxiety have a terrible, life-stifling affliction. I know that unwanted male attention can be uncomfortable or even frightening for a lot of women, and that's not unwarranted, but does the temporary discomfort of the "victim" outweigh the benefit of something potentially deeply healing to "perpetrator"? I honestly don't know myself. Life is complicated.
posted by mellow seas at 12:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
It seems like going to a bar instead of a restaurant and leading with pretty much anything smoother than "I like your face" (i.e., anything) would be less stunty and creepy for the unwilling accomplices to therapy
Hell maybe they'd even get a number or two
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Hell maybe they'd even get a number or two
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Maybe the woman sitting at the coffee shop (because for some reason it's presumed we want to date women) also has a terrible, life-stifling affliction and being asked by some random person for her phone number is going to set off her anxiety. Why should her feelings be less important?
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
the people in here who are aghast at the haphazard-asking-out thing are potentially reinforcing the very fears that cause social anxiety.
Or maybe, just perhapsily, it is possible that women are exhausted by constant unwanted attention from men in public and you have to be polite because you never know when a guy will flip out on you. Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 PM on October 22, 2015 [107 favorites]
Or maybe, just perhapsily, it is possible that women are exhausted by constant unwanted attention from men in public and you have to be polite because you never know when a guy will flip out on you. Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 PM on October 22, 2015 [107 favorites]
temporary discomfort of the "victim" outweigh the benefit of something potentially deeply healing to "perpetrator"
I think this is a false dichotomy. The reasoning would only work if this particular social mishap scenario was literally the only good therapy option for the person with dating-related social anxiety. Otherwise the question becomes "is it better to choose treatment A, which requires the discomfort of uninvolved strangers, or treatment B, which doesn't."
A couple other options I can think of off the top of my head are: participating in some kind of speed dating event that everyone has explicitly signed up for. Setting a goal to ask 5 people out that you're actually interested in over 2 weeks, in an appropriate setting and social context. I think everyday life offers plenty of options for experiencing stressful social interactions that it doesn't make that much sense to manufacture them.
posted by zixyer at 12:59 PM on October 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
I think this is a false dichotomy. The reasoning would only work if this particular social mishap scenario was literally the only good therapy option for the person with dating-related social anxiety. Otherwise the question becomes "is it better to choose treatment A, which requires the discomfort of uninvolved strangers, or treatment B, which doesn't."
A couple other options I can think of off the top of my head are: participating in some kind of speed dating event that everyone has explicitly signed up for. Setting a goal to ask 5 people out that you're actually interested in over 2 weeks, in an appropriate setting and social context. I think everyday life offers plenty of options for experiencing stressful social interactions that it doesn't make that much sense to manufacture them.
posted by zixyer at 12:59 PM on October 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
For example, if someone is not engaging in any dating behaviors because they are concerned about being rejected, we would ask them to go to a restaurant and ask every woman at the table for her number. And obviously, he would get rejected a lot, and that's the purpose of it.
I wonder if the researcher meant that literally, or was being a bit hyperbolic. I've undergone years of CBT in one form or another, and never have I been advised to thrust myself into a situation that extreme and at the expense of a group of strangers. But it's hard to express the nuances of CTB in a short article or brief interview. It's hard to describe how a patient would be assessed on a case-by-case basis and recommended to try new experiences LIKE asking people out repeated, though only as far as the patient feels comfortable.
In my case, I have been working through it by trying improv and live storytelling; activities that put me in front of people but allow me a safety net. But I also did the trying to make small talk thing, setting my phone's timer and forcing myself to stay at a party at least until it went off, etc. I even had one therapist recommend I try golf, because golf places pair you up with strangers. I hate golf so yeah; no.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 1:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wonder if the researcher meant that literally, or was being a bit hyperbolic. I've undergone years of CBT in one form or another, and never have I been advised to thrust myself into a situation that extreme and at the expense of a group of strangers. But it's hard to express the nuances of CTB in a short article or brief interview. It's hard to describe how a patient would be assessed on a case-by-case basis and recommended to try new experiences LIKE asking people out repeated, though only as far as the patient feels comfortable.
In my case, I have been working through it by trying improv and live storytelling; activities that put me in front of people but allow me a safety net. But I also did the trying to make small talk thing, setting my phone's timer and forcing myself to stay at a party at least until it went off, etc. I even had one therapist recommend I try golf, because golf places pair you up with strangers. I hate golf so yeah; no.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 1:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was never afraid of rejection or people thinking I'm an asshole. I was afraid of people being assholes and frankly, vindictive to me. I had inflated some formative experiences into an unrealistic view of how people really are.
As for the example being discussed, I get that it's problematic but any decent therapist should adjust their recommendations according to the client's responses. That is, if you brought up these very concerns with your therapist (i.e. not wanting to bother women in public) they should work with you to find an alternative that would work for you. I know my therapist worked with me in that manner to overcome my fears of talking to people.
posted by Hutch at 1:17 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
As for the example being discussed, I get that it's problematic but any decent therapist should adjust their recommendations according to the client's responses. That is, if you brought up these very concerns with your therapist (i.e. not wanting to bother women in public) they should work with you to find an alternative that would work for you. I know my therapist worked with me in that manner to overcome my fears of talking to people.
posted by Hutch at 1:17 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or maybe, just perhapsily, it is possible that women are exhausted by constant unwanted attention from men in public and you have to be polite because you never know when a guy will flip out on you.
I agree with this completely. But reading stuff like that (as much as it's completely, unimpeachably correct!) really does further my own personal drive to not interact with anyone, for better or for worse. I'm curious about how my personal ideology communicates with my anxiety. The word "entitled" was used upthread and that fits my view - why should I feel entitled to talk to you? I hate entitlement when I see it or read about it. White entitlement, male entitlement. So why should I feel entitled to invade your space, even at a bar where it's more "acceptable"? I don't have a good answer to that, so I don't do it.
posted by naju at 1:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I agree with this completely. But reading stuff like that (as much as it's completely, unimpeachably correct!) really does further my own personal drive to not interact with anyone, for better or for worse. I'm curious about how my personal ideology communicates with my anxiety. The word "entitled" was used upthread and that fits my view - why should I feel entitled to talk to you? I hate entitlement when I see it or read about it. White entitlement, male entitlement. So why should I feel entitled to invade your space, even at a bar where it's more "acceptable"? I don't have a good answer to that, so I don't do it.
posted by naju at 1:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
(And thank god for online dating, right, but not really because entitlement and unwanted attention there appears to make it near-unusable for well-intentioned people of any gender)
posted by naju at 1:21 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 1:21 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
That particular therapist does really seem to be into more extreme exposures. I know I would have probably just cancelled my next appointments if they tried to get me to do something so extreme.
posted by Hutch at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Hutch at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've fallen into this behavior over the past several years, to where it's all but impossible for me to leave the house on my own, without my wife. And, even then, it's painful to be out in public, let alone meeting-up with people, even friends (or, oddly, especially friends).
I can't begin to imagine how it would be if I were single. I definitely wouldn't be dating, that's for sure.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I can't begin to imagine how it would be if I were single. I definitely wouldn't be dating, that's for sure.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
i think anxious men working on emotional labor in their already established relationships (friends, family, work, etc) will help them learn social cues, non-verbal communication, etc and that those skills will help them approach potential romantic partners, because body language is a big part of figuring out who wants to be talking to you. this doesn't seem like the sort of thing you can take shortcuts for, unlike some of the examples in this thread, like asking for change or whatever.
the article is very careful to be gender neutral right up until the end when it's obvious that the "someone" is a man who can't ask women out - and i wonder why that always seems to be the focus when we talk about anxiety. what seems to be ignored with these type of pua endorsed solutions is that one of things that can cause anxiety is ptsd from sexual assault - and for those people, should they be on the receiving end of this sort of exercise, it could seriously worsen their issue. i know personally that one reason i got more reclusive is because of unwanted attention from men and the way it triggered my ptsd.
posted by nadawi at 1:39 PM on October 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
the article is very careful to be gender neutral right up until the end when it's obvious that the "someone" is a man who can't ask women out - and i wonder why that always seems to be the focus when we talk about anxiety. what seems to be ignored with these type of pua endorsed solutions is that one of things that can cause anxiety is ptsd from sexual assault - and for those people, should they be on the receiving end of this sort of exercise, it could seriously worsen their issue. i know personally that one reason i got more reclusive is because of unwanted attention from men and the way it triggered my ptsd.
posted by nadawi at 1:39 PM on October 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
Or maybe, just perhapsily, it is possible that women are exhausted by constant unwanted attention from men in public and you have to be polite because you never know when a guy will flip out on you. Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves.
Yeah, absolutely. And there's no way to tell who that person is or isn't. Who is going to go home upset and who is going to laugh about with their friends. And that's the source of my ambivalence. And the reason why maybe social anxiety in these matters is the CORRECT response, and why, as naju mentions, online dating has real potential as a safe space where people have entered into a contract that says, hey, I'm open to being bothered.
(Also, I don't appreciate your tone that suggests that I've never considered your point in my entire life. I thought I implied pretty clearly that I consider it frequently and earnestly, so please don't respond to me like I just pitched a PUA seminar.)
posted by mellow seas at 1:42 PM on October 22, 2015
I think nadawi's suggestion of really paying attention to social cues and non-verbal communication might be the best way out of that conundrum. There have been times when women have made it clear that they would be receptive to my attention, and acting on that has never felt invasive and has never led to an unwanted interaction. Maybe the entire idea of it being a numbers game where you get rejected over and over until you don't, is a flawed premise. If you pay attention you shouldn't get rejected all that often and there should be some mutual non-verbal invitation to talk. I think. (I'm not very good at any of this stuff, mind)
posted by naju at 1:46 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by naju at 1:46 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I've also seen the idea of "two questions and out" shared recently - If you approach a stranger in an appropriate venue, you can ask them two questions during the course of the conversation. Based on their answers you should have enough information (verbal, non-verbal) on whether you should proceed or whether you need to take your leave. I think this is a way of mitigating the invasiveness of approaching someone you don't know.
posted by naju at 1:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by naju at 1:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's funny, I don't actually have social anxiety but people often assume I do because I am very shy and avoid social situations due to being... kinda unlikeable, I guess? It's a hard thing to treat.
posted by thetortoise at 2:02 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by thetortoise at 2:02 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had to overcome some pretty bad anxiety when I moved to Japan and had to accept that pretty much every conversation I had with people was going to be very, very unwanted, rather than just suspecting it to be the case (at least until I got to know some people anyway). Just had fun with it out of necessity. Made a lot of faux-pas unknowingly and as it turned out it really it wasn't so bad; eventually I could laugh at myself for botching some interaction rather than internalizing and dwelling on this awful feeling that I am somehow bad at being a person among people. Also discovered that I really didn't need as much social interaction as I was doing at home, in fact I needed a lot more alone time. And that was also OK! Made a lot of good friends and had literally the time of my life in that year and a half or so. Came back a lot less obsessed with how others might or might not be looking at me.
posted by Hoopo at 2:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 2:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just gotta say this article seems weird to me. The thing about "Asian cultures aren't individual-centric" alone rings all kinds of alarm bells. This doctor doesn't come across as someone who I felt like I could trust as someone who understands my issues and knows how to address them. Which for someone who's the director of a center that specializes in that very issue, is a not so great result. Seems more like the same guy who tosses all kids into the deep end of the pool to teach them to swim.
posted by bleep at 2:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
i think anxious men working on emotional labor in their already established relationships (friends, family, work, etc) will help them learn social cues, non-verbal communication, etc and that those skills will help them approach potential romantic partners, because body language is a big part of figuring out who wants to be talking to you. this doesn't seem like the sort of thing you can take shortcuts for, unlike some of the examples in this thread, like asking for change or whatever.
The trouble with that is when your anxiety and its co-morbid friends conspire to ruin the few mutually trusting deep relationships you have, or prevent you from establishing any in the first place. Then you are stuck doing shit like this while you wait to see if the next group session has sp- Oh, they cancelled it? Damn.
Now, I haven't done any but my psych has suggested exposure therapy a few times, and exhorted me to get the ball rolling by doing the pointless exercises (asking for directions I don't need, etc.) on my own. The week before I started school again he suggested I ask out one of the many attractive strangers I was bound to be surrounded by. Thankfully, my non-verbal skills were developed enough that I could let him know what I thought without having to resort to impoliteness.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2015
The trouble with that is when your anxiety and its co-morbid friends conspire to ruin the few mutually trusting deep relationships you have, or prevent you from establishing any in the first place. Then you are stuck doing shit like this while you wait to see if the next group session has sp- Oh, they cancelled it? Damn.
Now, I haven't done any but my psych has suggested exposure therapy a few times, and exhorted me to get the ball rolling by doing the pointless exercises (asking for directions I don't need, etc.) on my own. The week before I started school again he suggested I ask out one of the many attractive strangers I was bound to be surrounded by. Thankfully, my non-verbal skills were developed enough that I could let him know what I thought without having to resort to impoliteness.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2015
My experience in therapy for social anxiety wasn't nearly as awful as this article described. Maybe my shrink was just being too gentle with me, but we worked on small (but still increasingly difficult) risks/situations -- not apocalyptic definitely-going-to-end-badly scenarios. So instead, I worked to accumulate a memory bank of successes, as a way to combat the negative self-talk. A lot less traumatic, as therapies go.
Maybe it's my somewhat-unrelated specific phobia talking, but the idea of therapy that's analogous to "flooding" just makes my heart palpate. Like upthread, I'd just cancel my appointments.
posted by sazerac at 2:22 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's my somewhat-unrelated specific phobia talking, but the idea of therapy that's analogous to "flooding" just makes my heart palpate. Like upthread, I'd just cancel my appointments.
posted by sazerac at 2:22 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
As much as I still psych myself out over things like asking my boss to schedule a lunch break for me when he forgets to put one on the schedule, or asking for recommendation letters, I am really glad that my therapist's approach involves a lot more figuring out what I want to do and what I think would be useful for me.
But I think perhaps nothing was as useful for my social anxiety as working in a library -- being on the other end of the "Do you have that Fifty Shades of Grey book?" transaction, and learning that I can get asked questions and favors without getting annoyed or rude, and being able to think "100 people have asked me where the bathroom is today and I was polite to ALL of them, so nothing terrible will happen if you ask somebody else [that thing you need to ask.]"
posted by Jeanne at 2:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
But I think perhaps nothing was as useful for my social anxiety as working in a library -- being on the other end of the "Do you have that Fifty Shades of Grey book?" transaction, and learning that I can get asked questions and favors without getting annoyed or rude, and being able to think "100 people have asked me where the bathroom is today and I was polite to ALL of them, so nothing terrible will happen if you ask somebody else [that thing you need to ask.]"
posted by Jeanne at 2:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'd agree that involving random strangers who may or may not be working through their own issues is a rather sketchy element in this scenario. "Outsourcing your emotional labor" was the phrase that came to mind. Anyway, wouldn't it be possible to set up an artificial environment? Pay some people - psych professionals, even - to basically be planted in the bar, then direct your patient towards them? That way they get the best of both worlds - they're engaging with total strangers who know what they're doing, and you're not having them make someone else's day worse.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:34 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:34 PM on October 22, 2015
The trouble with that is when your anxiety and its co-morbid friends conspire to ruin the few mutually trusting deep relationships you have, or prevent you from establishing any in the first place.
i guess this is what i mean by there not being shortcuts - and i get it, i really do, my social anxiety is often at absurd levels - but if they can't maintain friendships or acquaintances, then getting random strangers to date them using a buck shot approach of asking everyone out is going to be well above their ability. focusing instead on solving the root problem instead of being hyper focused on the dating part will be a lot more helpful and won't have as many pitfalls. this is why the asking for change or going to a show alone or other lower stakes exercises are preferable to trying to get romantically rejected as many times as possible in an hour - not just for the other people, but also in addressing the actual issue.
posted by nadawi at 2:49 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
i guess this is what i mean by there not being shortcuts - and i get it, i really do, my social anxiety is often at absurd levels - but if they can't maintain friendships or acquaintances, then getting random strangers to date them using a buck shot approach of asking everyone out is going to be well above their ability. focusing instead on solving the root problem instead of being hyper focused on the dating part will be a lot more helpful and won't have as many pitfalls. this is why the asking for change or going to a show alone or other lower stakes exercises are preferable to trying to get romantically rejected as many times as possible in an hour - not just for the other people, but also in addressing the actual issue.
posted by nadawi at 2:49 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm a woman with social anxiety that would totally be triggered by some dude in a coffee shop randomly asking me out. That just struck me as incredibly weird.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:54 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:54 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think this therapist is too focussed on showing their clients that negative reactions aren't so bad when instead they should be focussed on showing them that most people won't react negatively. It might be a subtle difference but to me it means they should be putting them in positions to succeed rather than fail. And propositioning strangers like that? Guaranteed to fail and likely generate some pretty poor reactions.
posted by Hutch at 2:59 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Hutch at 2:59 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
just spitballing here but that "help getting dates" angle might have been volunteered by the therapist because his patients are coming to him for help for that specific thing. It was something right at the end of the article anyway, didn't strike me as the focus of the thing. I admit it is a weird recommendation though and it would be a lot better if he wasn't essentially asking people to bother/harrass strangers with deliberately bad pick-up lines.
I tried CBT for a phobia I have. It wasn't covered by my medical plan and I spent a good amount of money on it. It didn't work for me. Neither did Ativan, for that matter. Some shit maybe you just don't get over, I guess.
posted by Hoopo at 3:27 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I tried CBT for a phobia I have. It wasn't covered by my medical plan and I spent a good amount of money on it. It didn't work for me. Neither did Ativan, for that matter. Some shit maybe you just don't get over, I guess.
posted by Hoopo at 3:27 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know that unwanted male attention can be uncomfortable or even frightening for a lot of women, and that's not unwarranted, but does the temporary discomfort of the "victim" outweigh the benefit of something potentially deeply healing to "perpetrator"? I honestly don't know myself. Life is complicated.
I think the discomfort being potentially foisted on the party being brought unwillingly into the situation does trump the discomfort of the person seeking the interaction for the simple reason that in one instance the anxiety is pre-existing within the framework of the individual's mind and in the other the anxiety is being brought upon by someone else. Reminds me of the "pursuit of happiness" concept: your right to your own pursuit of happiness is legitimate, but it ends when it starts clashing uncomfortably with someone else's.
It is all very complicated, however, on that we agree. I'd say that the real solution to navigating the complex layers of friendships/romance/social interaction is to make an effort to be keenly aware of social cues, which will usually give you a pretty good idea very quickly of where things are headed, and to respect and respond appropriately to those social cues. Other than that we're all sort of stumbling around out there.
posted by dreamlanding at 3:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the discomfort being potentially foisted on the party being brought unwillingly into the situation does trump the discomfort of the person seeking the interaction for the simple reason that in one instance the anxiety is pre-existing within the framework of the individual's mind and in the other the anxiety is being brought upon by someone else. Reminds me of the "pursuit of happiness" concept: your right to your own pursuit of happiness is legitimate, but it ends when it starts clashing uncomfortably with someone else's.
It is all very complicated, however, on that we agree. I'd say that the real solution to navigating the complex layers of friendships/romance/social interaction is to make an effort to be keenly aware of social cues, which will usually give you a pretty good idea very quickly of where things are headed, and to respect and respond appropriately to those social cues. Other than that we're all sort of stumbling around out there.
posted by dreamlanding at 3:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Then you gradually challenge these maladaptive thinking patterns by asking people to engage in what we would call exposure practices, where they expose themselves to these situations repeatedly and for a long period of time so that they can realize that nothing bad is happing.
Even setting aside the terrible example given, this just seems overly simplistic. There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.
posted by bleep at 3:36 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Even setting aside the terrible example given, this just seems overly simplistic. There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.
posted by bleep at 3:36 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
My parents are kind and gentle Midwesterners - who would never dream of "making a fuss" in any situation - until they took on a gig as "secret diners" for a small restaurant chain. They were given tasks like "send a meal back when there's nothing wrong with it, just say you don't like it" and "order special things that aren't on the menu", and the first few times it killed them. Then they got used to it. I guess the incentive of free meals was enough to make them challenge their innate habits. Seems like a better version of exposure therapy than creeping out random women, anyway.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:01 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Daily Alice at 4:01 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.
That pretty much sums up my anxiety. Strangers present no challenge whatsoever; neither do coworkers as long as it's within the context of work. But something like texting someone and asking if they want to hang out is a Big Fucking Ordeal because I'm not sure whether they're immediately groaning and trying to come up with an excuse to not interact with me.
posted by bracems at 4:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
That pretty much sums up my anxiety. Strangers present no challenge whatsoever; neither do coworkers as long as it's within the context of work. But something like texting someone and asking if they want to hang out is a Big Fucking Ordeal because I'm not sure whether they're immediately groaning and trying to come up with an excuse to not interact with me.
posted by bracems at 4:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
As a liberal currently working through mental health issues, I totally grok the emotional work with maintaining your individual self-worth while respecting your ideological beliefs regarding unintentional harm to minorities.
I do it by trying to ignore white guilt. It might be a social tool that helps other people behave better. But for me, it's a lot of emotional energy spent trying to make someone else's social issues about me. It isolates me to the point that I'm not a good ally because I don't feel comfortable taking up space. The end result is that when I do, it's all awkward and terrible for everyone involved.
I am allowed to exist and speak my mind. I am allowed to interact with other people and agitate for my needs to be met. This does not have to be in conflict with making sure that other people are able voice their discomfort and agitate for the changes in society they need to have their needs met. As they are heard, I try to have the graciousness that they are creating boundaries for me to respect. Not hearing it as a hateful accusation designed to make me feel unsafe in the public sphere.
I'm sure that seems stupid obvious for people without social anxiety. But I need to be very careful to split that difference.
My first world problems don't belong in a thread about race, simply because it derails an important social issue. But my first world problems do need to be worked out in my own space. Hopefully with friends and loved ones who don't see my privilege as a strike against me, which is often how I internalize it.
posted by politikitty at 4:30 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I do it by trying to ignore white guilt. It might be a social tool that helps other people behave better. But for me, it's a lot of emotional energy spent trying to make someone else's social issues about me. It isolates me to the point that I'm not a good ally because I don't feel comfortable taking up space. The end result is that when I do, it's all awkward and terrible for everyone involved.
I am allowed to exist and speak my mind. I am allowed to interact with other people and agitate for my needs to be met. This does not have to be in conflict with making sure that other people are able voice their discomfort and agitate for the changes in society they need to have their needs met. As they are heard, I try to have the graciousness that they are creating boundaries for me to respect. Not hearing it as a hateful accusation designed to make me feel unsafe in the public sphere.
I'm sure that seems stupid obvious for people without social anxiety. But I need to be very careful to split that difference.
My first world problems don't belong in a thread about race, simply because it derails an important social issue. But my first world problems do need to be worked out in my own space. Hopefully with friends and loved ones who don't see my privilege as a strike against me, which is often how I internalize it.
posted by politikitty at 4:30 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.Yeah, I think that's the insidious thing about social anxiety. I know it's probably irrational, but how can I be sure? Maybe everyone really is just pretending to like me. Maybe they do just tolerate me because they pity me. That happens, right? I can't really think of the exposure therapy that would somehow disprove my anxious thoughts.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:32 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even setting aside the terrible example given, this just seems overly simplistic. There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.
I think the idea is that if in fact everyone is trying to slow fade, it isn't life threatening , its not the fact of what others are thinking it is what the phobic person does with it. A lot of the comments here don't seem to understand that social anxiety is not shyness or a little trouble with public speaking. It is a phobia where what to a healthy person is just blah to the phobic is life threatening. I think this is why it is hard to truly empathize with those afflicted. I reserve judgement as to the effectiveness of any given therapy but the article claims a high success rate with aversion therapy and I have read that it is used with all kinds of other phobias with success.
posted by Pembquist at 4:40 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the idea is that if in fact everyone is trying to slow fade, it isn't life threatening , its not the fact of what others are thinking it is what the phobic person does with it. A lot of the comments here don't seem to understand that social anxiety is not shyness or a little trouble with public speaking. It is a phobia where what to a healthy person is just blah to the phobic is life threatening. I think this is why it is hard to truly empathize with those afflicted. I reserve judgement as to the effectiveness of any given therapy but the article claims a high success rate with aversion therapy and I have read that it is used with all kinds of other phobias with success.
posted by Pembquist at 4:40 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been diagnosed with social anxiety, for what it's worth, and I don't think it's hugely life threatening. It's life limiting, definitely, but I don't think being potentially deadly is one of the diagnostic criteria. And I'm just not sure that social anxiety is directly analogous to other phobias.
I guess it could be life threatening, in the sense that it might make me reluctant to ask for help in an emergency, but I don't think that's one of the defining features.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:46 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess it could be life threatening, in the sense that it might make me reluctant to ask for help in an emergency, but I don't think that's one of the defining features.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:46 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Social anxiety is a result of the fear of a possibility that we will not be accepted by our peers.
That's really not how I experience my social anxiety at all. I don't think I care if most people like me, but I'm still super-anxious about people. In general.
These are not just shy people—social anxiety disorder is not the same as shyness.
People always say that! I really, honestly do not understand the difference or even what shyness would be in that case. I was called shy as a child - it's always all been wrapped up together in my personality.
I don't think any of the exercises this guy describes would be useful for me. No amount of talking with strangers (part of my job) or whatever else has helped me feel less anxious or people-adverse.
I do admit that social anxiety isn't actually among my list of mental health diagnoses, so maybe I'm just generally anxious and also find people extremely boring and off-putting.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:53 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's really not how I experience my social anxiety at all. I don't think I care if most people like me, but I'm still super-anxious about people. In general.
These are not just shy people—social anxiety disorder is not the same as shyness.
People always say that! I really, honestly do not understand the difference or even what shyness would be in that case. I was called shy as a child - it's always all been wrapped up together in my personality.
I don't think any of the exercises this guy describes would be useful for me. No amount of talking with strangers (part of my job) or whatever else has helped me feel less anxious or people-adverse.
I do admit that social anxiety isn't actually among my list of mental health diagnoses, so maybe I'm just generally anxious and also find people extremely boring and off-putting.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:53 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think this therapist is too focussed on showing their clients that negative reactions aren't so bad when instead they should be focussed on showing them that most people won't react negatively.
I totally disagree, though I'm not a therapist (just someone who has been to therapy) - "most people won't react negatively" is not useful to some people suffering from anxiety, because they will naturally just focus on the small percentage who will react negatively. In other words, the error in thinking is not "people might react negatively to me," because that's actually a totally reasonable fear; eventually, someone is almost certain to react negatively to you. The error is in thinking that this type of social rejection would be too painful to bear, because that means you then start organizing your life to avoid social interactions where there's a chance of a negative reaction, and then you get into this negative spiral of avoidance and rumination.
It's really a shame that one of the examples given here is so sexist. My sense is that there are a lot of other therapists out there who have feminism and social justice as core values, and that they are just as able to suggest and implement treatment strategies like the one described in the article, except obviously without the stupid PUA stuff.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I totally disagree, though I'm not a therapist (just someone who has been to therapy) - "most people won't react negatively" is not useful to some people suffering from anxiety, because they will naturally just focus on the small percentage who will react negatively. In other words, the error in thinking is not "people might react negatively to me," because that's actually a totally reasonable fear; eventually, someone is almost certain to react negatively to you. The error is in thinking that this type of social rejection would be too painful to bear, because that means you then start organizing your life to avoid social interactions where there's a chance of a negative reaction, and then you get into this negative spiral of avoidance and rumination.
It's really a shame that one of the examples given here is so sexist. My sense is that there are a lot of other therapists out there who have feminism and social justice as core values, and that they are just as able to suggest and implement treatment strategies like the one described in the article, except obviously without the stupid PUA stuff.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
but does the temporary discomfort of the "victim" outweigh the benefit of something potentially deeply healing to "perpetrator"?
Wait, why is the woman's discomfort assumed to be temporary? If there's one thing I've learned from reading discussions on Metafilter about this, it's that the assumption that women are constantly available for men to approach romantically really screws up women's' lives.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:13 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Wait, why is the woman's discomfort assumed to be temporary? If there's one thing I've learned from reading discussions on Metafilter about this, it's that the assumption that women are constantly available for men to approach romantically really screws up women's' lives.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:13 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Maybe "systematically get yourself rejected by women with this bonkers script, who cares how they feel this is all about you and your anxiety" should be replaced with "respectfully approach 1-2 women a day you actually feel attracted to." Seems like a better strategy for dealing with anxiety as well as for actually meeting someone.
posted by 3urypteris at 5:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by 3urypteris at 5:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've been diagnosed with social anxiety, for what it's worth, and I don't think it's hugely life threatening. It's life limiting, definitely, but I don't think being potentially deadly is one of the diagnostic criteria. And I'm just not sure that social anxiety is directly analogous to other phobias.
I guess it could be life threatening, in the sense that it might make me reluctant to ask for help in an emergency, but I don't think that's one of the defining features.
I must have been unclear. The phobia is not neccesarily life threatening, the phobia causes irrational fear to a degree similar to what would be appropriate for a life threatening situation. So, for example, standing on a check out line may feel akin to being challenged to a street fight in terms of the emotional arousal and physical reaction. It is not fear for your life but the fear is the same, if that makes any sense.
I would argue that it is infact analogous to other phobias, and one of the problems is that it carries a social stigma that other phobias do not. By that I mean....(I'm having a real hard time with language today)....something akin to when people tell somebody with clinical depression they should buck up, that they are being moody.
posted by Pembquist at 5:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess it could be life threatening, in the sense that it might make me reluctant to ask for help in an emergency, but I don't think that's one of the defining features.
I must have been unclear. The phobia is not neccesarily life threatening, the phobia causes irrational fear to a degree similar to what would be appropriate for a life threatening situation. So, for example, standing on a check out line may feel akin to being challenged to a street fight in terms of the emotional arousal and physical reaction. It is not fear for your life but the fear is the same, if that makes any sense.
I would argue that it is infact analogous to other phobias, and one of the problems is that it carries a social stigma that other phobias do not. By that I mean....(I'm having a real hard time with language today)....something akin to when people tell somebody with clinical depression they should buck up, that they are being moody.
posted by Pembquist at 5:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nothing's helped with my anxiety as much as having a psychotic break in public and just having to deal with the aftermath and move on.
posted by 3urypteris at 5:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by 3urypteris at 5:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is no aversion therapy for the knowledge that everyone you know may or may not be trying to slow fade you right now and there is no way of knowing.
With this, I think it helps to do a couple of things. One is to actively cultivate a state of benign ignorance, i.e. to assume that a) you're actually fine, and that b) everyone's just busy, otherwise preoccupied, or tired (which is often true, for people over a certain age). And then keep expectations low, so that if you see so-and-so, it's a bonus. This is hard if you're naturally a loyal sort who makes an effort to be helpful and available for people, because we all think what we do is normal and/or desirable for everyone. The answer to that is to do less for other people. (If you're a go-out-of-your-way-for-folks kind of person, there's no real danger of becoming an asshole, you'll probably still have a ton of niceness banked.) When you get used to doing less for others and more for yourself, you expect less of others, and you're more ok with getting less. Which paradoxically makes others want to give more.
Exposure definitely helped me. Nothing nearly as deliberately aversive as what was described in the article, but not unlike it. Like making chit-chat with non-threatening people who seemed open to e.g. a light joke about the shared situation, or some brief bullshitting about the weather. Or just smiling. (My antennae are usually pretty good for signals of rejection; I'm comfortable saying I backed off when it wasn't welcome, most of the time.) I don't think there was one time I did that where I came away feeling the other person disliked it; on the contrary, almost all of those brief exchanges at least seemed to be pleasant for both people.
The most helpful kind of exposure was probably jobs that involved dealing with people. Not overwhelming jobs, where I had no control (I survived working at Tim Horton's for 0.8 days, once, over 20 years ago), but things like tutoring, where I could set the pace and interaction style.
(Other stuff too, but I'm on my way out.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
With this, I think it helps to do a couple of things. One is to actively cultivate a state of benign ignorance, i.e. to assume that a) you're actually fine, and that b) everyone's just busy, otherwise preoccupied, or tired (which is often true, for people over a certain age). And then keep expectations low, so that if you see so-and-so, it's a bonus. This is hard if you're naturally a loyal sort who makes an effort to be helpful and available for people, because we all think what we do is normal and/or desirable for everyone. The answer to that is to do less for other people. (If you're a go-out-of-your-way-for-folks kind of person, there's no real danger of becoming an asshole, you'll probably still have a ton of niceness banked.) When you get used to doing less for others and more for yourself, you expect less of others, and you're more ok with getting less. Which paradoxically makes others want to give more.
Exposure definitely helped me. Nothing nearly as deliberately aversive as what was described in the article, but not unlike it. Like making chit-chat with non-threatening people who seemed open to e.g. a light joke about the shared situation, or some brief bullshitting about the weather. Or just smiling. (My antennae are usually pretty good for signals of rejection; I'm comfortable saying I backed off when it wasn't welcome, most of the time.) I don't think there was one time I did that where I came away feeling the other person disliked it; on the contrary, almost all of those brief exchanges at least seemed to be pleasant for both people.
The most helpful kind of exposure was probably jobs that involved dealing with people. Not overwhelming jobs, where I had no control (I survived working at Tim Horton's for 0.8 days, once, over 20 years ago), but things like tutoring, where I could set the pace and interaction style.
(Other stuff too, but I'm on my way out.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
That is not a slight against people who are not out! (I'm going to the library, like I'm just leaving my computer for a while.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:43 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:43 PM on October 22, 2015
(I'm very often in. GD it.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:45 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:45 PM on October 22, 2015
This thread explains, I think, why I was asked out while I was sitting waiting for the damn Red Line in Cambridge a while back. I'm not an unattractive woman, I'm just invisible for a lot of reasons, and one is that I carry a little extra weight. So when this guy came up to me -- someone who was, at best, wearing lip gloss, and carrying a Trader Joe's insulated shopping bag -- and started showing great interest, asking if I'm in college (oh fuck on off out of here), if I have a boyfriend, etc.. . . I got extremely nervous. I thought, at best he wants sex with whatever's moving, at worst he particularly wants someone that he can be cruel to because he thinks she'll be grateful for the attention. Finally, he asked directly for a date, and I had to turn him down. He looked crestfallen, and I was tensed to be insulted, but thankfully he did not do so. It was an anxious few minutes till the train came.
This was a good-looking guy, too. Someone may have been preying on his insecurities by making him do this exercise. I don't think he was the devil. But as a woman, I could not let myself forget -- the train tracks were right there.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
This was a good-looking guy, too. Someone may have been preying on his insecurities by making him do this exercise. I don't think he was the devil. But as a woman, I could not let myself forget -- the train tracks were right there.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
what if he wanted your kidneys though
i always assume people are organ harvesters
posted by poffin boffin at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
i always assume people are organ harvesters
posted by poffin boffin at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I guess there is something to be said for therapy that actually takes action. Here is my experience with therapy for extreme social anxiety:
"Okay, Drinky, here's the plan. You have severe fear of opening up about yourself with other people. We are gonna fix this by having you open up about your inner most self that you don't even share with close friends or family with this complete stranger and then he will give you advice and maybe some drugs. "
No.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Okay, Drinky, here's the plan. You have severe fear of opening up about yourself with other people. We are gonna fix this by having you open up about your inner most self that you don't even share with close friends or family with this complete stranger and then he will give you advice and maybe some drugs. "
No.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I totally disagree, though I'm not a therapist (just someone who has been to therapy) - "most people won't react negatively" is not useful to some people suffering from anxiety, because they will naturally just focus on the small percentage who will react negatively.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I'm not a therapist either and can only speak from what helped me. For me, I imagined that everyone I met was a vindictive person that would punish me for misbehavior. So I saw every interaction as potentially traumatic, because I was already amplifying that small percentage of negative experiences. Learning that these people weren't as common as I thought gave me a lot of relief.
posted by Hutch at 6:41 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I'm not a therapist either and can only speak from what helped me. For me, I imagined that everyone I met was a vindictive person that would punish me for misbehavior. So I saw every interaction as potentially traumatic, because I was already amplifying that small percentage of negative experiences. Learning that these people weren't as common as I thought gave me a lot of relief.
posted by Hutch at 6:41 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Now totally terrified of going out in public lest I get accosted by people undergoing/inflicting this therapy on others. Thanks.
posted by Perfectibilist at 6:53 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Perfectibilist at 6:53 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, my therapist just kept on suggesting I try improv.
... I didn't last long in therapy.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
... I didn't last long in therapy.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:05 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Wait, why is the woman's discomfort assumed to be temporary? If there's one thing I've learned from reading discussions on Metafilter about this, it's that the assumption that women are constantly available for men to approach romantically really screws up women's' lives.
I find this really unhelpful in a thread about social anxiety and not feminism. There are socially acceptable ways that people can approach women without being threatening. But with social anxiety, it's easy to conflate legitimate boundary crossing with considerate human behavior.
I find it hard to ask how someone is doing. I avoid checking in on loved ones in crisis because I'm legitimately terrified I'll further traumatize them by dredging up bad memories. I find it difficult to display interest in people, because I don't want to intrude.
Developing relationships with people is pretty hard. I basically steel myself for defeat, talk about myself, and engage only with people who willingly decide they want to deal with that. Only then will I tentatively feel like I'm not the worst human being to actively get to know someone.
Needless to say a lot of people read those social cues and see a self absorbed bitch who doesn't care about anyone else. And I can't blame them. That's why it's a disorder and not just being shy.
posted by politikitty at 7:09 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I find this really unhelpful in a thread about social anxiety and not feminism. There are socially acceptable ways that people can approach women without being threatening. But with social anxiety, it's easy to conflate legitimate boundary crossing with considerate human behavior.
I find it hard to ask how someone is doing. I avoid checking in on loved ones in crisis because I'm legitimately terrified I'll further traumatize them by dredging up bad memories. I find it difficult to display interest in people, because I don't want to intrude.
Developing relationships with people is pretty hard. I basically steel myself for defeat, talk about myself, and engage only with people who willingly decide they want to deal with that. Only then will I tentatively feel like I'm not the worst human being to actively get to know someone.
Needless to say a lot of people read those social cues and see a self absorbed bitch who doesn't care about anyone else. And I can't blame them. That's why it's a disorder and not just being shy.
posted by politikitty at 7:09 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I find this really unhelpful in a thread about social anxiety and not feminism.
Pretty sure it's okay to care about both things.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Pretty sure it's okay to care about both things.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
For my mid-life crisis, I developed social anxiety with panic attacks: profuse, copious, very obvious sweat dripping down my face. Happened in small groups as well 1:1 conversation, with both strangers and people who liked me. There was no hiding it.
An uncharitable, but for me, helpful description of social anxiety is pathological self-centeredness and projection of self-loathing. It was an overwhelming fixation on every possible negative thing I could imagine others could be thinking of me. Every interaction, the subtext of every conversation, was the other person, gifted with insight into my deepest shame, silently evaluating my character flaws.
Aversion therapy didn't help me out with this much. Identifying the guy who was actually obsessing about my flaws and convincing him to cut me some slack made the PAs go away. (Yes, turns out I was the guy obsessing.)
posted by klarck at 7:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
An uncharitable, but for me, helpful description of social anxiety is pathological self-centeredness and projection of self-loathing. It was an overwhelming fixation on every possible negative thing I could imagine others could be thinking of me. Every interaction, the subtext of every conversation, was the other person, gifted with insight into my deepest shame, silently evaluating my character flaws.
Aversion therapy didn't help me out with this much. Identifying the guy who was actually obsessing about my flaws and convincing him to cut me some slack made the PAs go away. (Yes, turns out I was the guy obsessing.)
posted by klarck at 7:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I find this really unhelpful in a thread about social anxiety and not feminism.
Pretty sure it's okay to care about both things.
Yeah, I agree.
The fact that men are generally expected to approach is one of those things that is toxic as hell about patriarchy and a real pain in the ass for a shy or socially anxious dude. We basically have to learn this if we ever want to have relationships, and it's gonna mean women feel uncomfortable when we fuck it up. So, to some degree for now this mutual discomfort is just part of life. Inflicting it machine gun style via therapy though? I dunno, can't we try some private roleplaying instead? Hire a couple actors for the job and do some group therapy? There has to be a better way to do this without using unpaid unwilling participants in the therapy.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Pretty sure it's okay to care about both things.
Yeah, I agree.
The fact that men are generally expected to approach is one of those things that is toxic as hell about patriarchy and a real pain in the ass for a shy or socially anxious dude. We basically have to learn this if we ever want to have relationships, and it's gonna mean women feel uncomfortable when we fuck it up. So, to some degree for now this mutual discomfort is just part of life. Inflicting it machine gun style via therapy though? I dunno, can't we try some private roleplaying instead? Hire a couple actors for the job and do some group therapy? There has to be a better way to do this without using unpaid unwilling participants in the therapy.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Of course it's okay to care about both things, but that doesn't mean this is the appropriate place to lecture about the ways men hurt women.
The comment was not about reclaiming the right to be a sexist asshole. It was about the way a legitimate political belief is used to justify self-harm.
Many people avoid receiving mental health because they feel they don't deserve it. Classifying problems as first world and privileged is a problematic barrier to receiving care.
In political discussions, I don't try to step in and explain how this can be triggering. The political work is too important for that derail. But there has to be some space to discuss social anxiety without throwing in triggers because you worry we're going to be shitty allies.
posted by politikitty at 7:30 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
The comment was not about reclaiming the right to be a sexist asshole. It was about the way a legitimate political belief is used to justify self-harm.
Many people avoid receiving mental health because they feel they don't deserve it. Classifying problems as first world and privileged is a problematic barrier to receiving care.
In political discussions, I don't try to step in and explain how this can be triggering. The political work is too important for that derail. But there has to be some space to discuss social anxiety without throwing in triggers because you worry we're going to be shitty allies.
posted by politikitty at 7:30 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I think the example given is terrible and violates the sort of social norms I expect as a woman.
But the point is that it's hard for me to see even reasonable introductions as something other than me violating social norms. I do not need to be flooded with reminders that people will think I'm the worst.
It's All Lives Matter. A true statement that takes on an ugly meaning when inserted into a discussion about the difficulties of mental health.
posted by politikitty at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
But the point is that it's hard for me to see even reasonable introductions as something other than me violating social norms. I do not need to be flooded with reminders that people will think I'm the worst.
It's All Lives Matter. A true statement that takes on an ugly meaning when inserted into a discussion about the difficulties of mental health.
posted by politikitty at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Here's a recent paper by Hofmann on "social mishap" exercises, which cites moderate to large efficacy rates (that exceed "traditional" CBT protocols), and some related training videos. The naturalistic setting is important, I think, in order to really effectively undermine distorted beliefs about people.
Here are things a female patient was asked to do:
Mary’s in-vivo mishap exposures were designed to target her fears of inconveniencing others, being the center of attention, and being thought of as unintelligent. To address her fear of inconveniencing others, the therapists worked with Mary to design an exposure in which she negotiated a romantic vacation package at a nearby five-star hotel. Her goals were to ask for tickets to a ballgame, for rose petals to be strewn on the bed, and for a horse-drawn carriage tour of the city. At the end of stating those three requests, her goal was to obtain an itemized list with the final price, negotiate the price, and then reject the offer because she “changed her mind” without apologizing or giving any excuses. She described having automatic thoughts that she would get kicked out of the hotel, and that the concierge staff would roll their eyes at her. Mary’s anticipatory anxiety was a 90, her peak anxiety was a 90, and her final anxiety rating was a 40. Upon completing her exposure, she stated that she was surprised by the concierge’s accommodating nature, despite her outrageous requests, and that she did not receive the kind of negative response she had anticipated by the concierge staff. She met all of her goals and left the exposure with a sense of accomplishment for minimizing any use of safety behaviors (e.g., apologizing excessively for turning down the offer).
Other exposures that Mary conducted in subsequent sessions addressed similar fears: interrupting a group of people in a restaurant to practice a toast for a maid-of-honor speech (targeting inconveniencing others and being the center of attention); asking strangers in a bookstore to read the back cover of a book because she did not know how to read (targeting being thought of as unintelligent); and, while wearing bandages on her face, asking people on the street if they were “Carl Smith” because his car was being towed (targeting inconveniencing others, being the center of attention, and being thought of as weird).
...
At the end of treatment, Mary’s LSAS score decreased to 38, which represented a 57.8% reduction of SAD symptoms from baseline.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Here are things a female patient was asked to do:
Mary’s in-vivo mishap exposures were designed to target her fears of inconveniencing others, being the center of attention, and being thought of as unintelligent. To address her fear of inconveniencing others, the therapists worked with Mary to design an exposure in which she negotiated a romantic vacation package at a nearby five-star hotel. Her goals were to ask for tickets to a ballgame, for rose petals to be strewn on the bed, and for a horse-drawn carriage tour of the city. At the end of stating those three requests, her goal was to obtain an itemized list with the final price, negotiate the price, and then reject the offer because she “changed her mind” without apologizing or giving any excuses. She described having automatic thoughts that she would get kicked out of the hotel, and that the concierge staff would roll their eyes at her. Mary’s anticipatory anxiety was a 90, her peak anxiety was a 90, and her final anxiety rating was a 40. Upon completing her exposure, she stated that she was surprised by the concierge’s accommodating nature, despite her outrageous requests, and that she did not receive the kind of negative response she had anticipated by the concierge staff. She met all of her goals and left the exposure with a sense of accomplishment for minimizing any use of safety behaviors (e.g., apologizing excessively for turning down the offer).
Other exposures that Mary conducted in subsequent sessions addressed similar fears: interrupting a group of people in a restaurant to practice a toast for a maid-of-honor speech (targeting inconveniencing others and being the center of attention); asking strangers in a bookstore to read the back cover of a book because she did not know how to read (targeting being thought of as unintelligent); and, while wearing bandages on her face, asking people on the street if they were “Carl Smith” because his car was being towed (targeting inconveniencing others, being the center of attention, and being thought of as weird).
...
At the end of treatment, Mary’s LSAS score decreased to 38, which represented a 57.8% reduction of SAD symptoms from baseline.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
I suppose it's true that there's a risk people might be terribly inconvenienced and offended by being asked to read the back cover of a book, but honestly, probably not. And if they really are, most will say "sorry, no time". The odds of the interlocutor being another socially anxious person aren't tiny, but they're not massive. (I assume all this went through some kind of ethics board.)
I think this rather points to Drinky Die's point about the challenges of social anxiety for men. It's true that one reason I can (probably) have 20 seconds of idle chit-chat about the fall weather with the lady at the store without anyone freaking out is that I'm also a lady at the store.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think this rather points to Drinky Die's point about the challenges of social anxiety for men. It's true that one reason I can (probably) have 20 seconds of idle chit-chat about the fall weather with the lady at the store without anyone freaking out is that I'm also a lady at the store.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I like that this thread has reminded me that while I may have social anxiety disorder too, my actual diagnosis was generalized anxiety disorder because I have anxiety about everything all of the time and not just social interaction.
posted by dogwalker at 11:34 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by dogwalker at 11:34 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I find this really unhelpful in a thread about social anxiety and not feminism. There are socially acceptable ways that people can approach women without being threatening. But with social anxiety, it's easy to conflate legitimate boundary crossing with considerate human behavior.
To be clear, my criticism isn't directed towards the socially anxious men being told to do this as part of their treatment, it's at the mental health professionals, who don't have social anxiety, and could be expected to have a better understanding of where boundaries are, telling their patients to just go ahead and cross them.
I think in a discussion about the treatment of social anxiety, the costs of that treatment on those conscripted to be part of it is very relevant.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:35 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be clear, my criticism isn't directed towards the socially anxious men being told to do this as part of their treatment, it's at the mental health professionals, who don't have social anxiety, and could be expected to have a better understanding of where boundaries are, telling their patients to just go ahead and cross them.
I think in a discussion about the treatment of social anxiety, the costs of that treatment on those conscripted to be part of it is very relevant.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:35 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
There has to be a better way to do this without using unpaid unwilling participants in the therapy.
Someone upthread mentioned speed dating and it was really the most genius offhand idea anyone on mefi has ever had. Speed dating seems tailor made for this kind of therapy: everyone is consenting to date-like attention and the patient might even come out of it with an actual date.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Someone upthread mentioned speed dating and it was really the most genius offhand idea anyone on mefi has ever had. Speed dating seems tailor made for this kind of therapy: everyone is consenting to date-like attention and the patient might even come out of it with an actual date.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
That was zixyer, and I agree. It should become one of AskMe's stock answers, like "join the Coast Guard" or "you're thinking of 'All of Summer in a Day'" or "not if it's been left out for four hours in a warm house" or "USAA."
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:17 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:17 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
For me it was being asked for directions all the time that helped my anxiety. I realized I must have an approachable demeanor for it to be happening all the fricking time. I went from going "Idon'tknow!!!" automatically, three years ago, to an entire ten-minute discussion about the transportation merits of Courbevoie vs. Rueil-Malmaison just yesterday.
That could be a good exercise too. Count me in as another woman wondering why exercises asking to be part of another person's life (usually a woman's, hm) are "exercises" as opposed to something more equitable and yet still anxiety-inducing, such as asking for directions/change/the time...
posted by fraula at 9:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
That could be a good exercise too. Count me in as another woman wondering why exercises asking to be part of another person's life (usually a woman's, hm) are "exercises" as opposed to something more equitable and yet still anxiety-inducing, such as asking for directions/change/the time...
posted by fraula at 9:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Count me in as another woman wondering why exercises asking to be part of another person's life
Because an inability to be a part of other's lives and create relationships is one of the most isolating and damaging things about social anxiety?
Would you have a meaningful life if your only human interaction was asking people for directions?
posted by politikitty at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because an inability to be a part of other's lives and create relationships is one of the most isolating and damaging things about social anxiety?
Would you have a meaningful life if your only human interaction was asking people for directions?
posted by politikitty at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
It appears the exercises are designed to address patients' greatest fears. Dating - or even approaching - members of the desired gender is the one at play for the men discussed in the OP. Like it or not, men are still largely tasked with doing the approaching, in our culture (and I agree with anyone who thinks that's silly, but it's how things work, for the most part, sadly). A guy who struggles with this is at a serious disadvantage.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Which sucks. And it sucks for women who would like to be approached and aren't. But being asked for your phone number for no reason other than that you are a woman who is in a restaurant also sucks, and is insulting to boot.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:17 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:17 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, I think the point of these particular exposure exercises is to exaggerate the "social cost" to match or exceed people's fears and evaluation of risk:
Standard exposure practices of patients with SAD are typically designed to make patients realize that social catastrophes are unlikely to happen, and that patients are able to handle socially challenging situations despite their social anxiety (e.g., Heimberg et al., 1990, 1998). In contrast, the goal of the social mishap exposures is to purposely violate the patient’s perceived social norms and standards in order to break the self-reinforcing cycle of fearful anticipation and subsequent use of avoidance strategies. Patients are asked to intentionally create the feared negative consequences of a feared social situation. As a result, patients are forced to reevaluate the perceived threat of a social situation after experiencing that social mishaps do not lead to the feared long-lasting, irreversible, and negative consequences. A more detailed description of this model is presented in Hofmann (2007).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Standard exposure practices of patients with SAD are typically designed to make patients realize that social catastrophes are unlikely to happen, and that patients are able to handle socially challenging situations despite their social anxiety (e.g., Heimberg et al., 1990, 1998). In contrast, the goal of the social mishap exposures is to purposely violate the patient’s perceived social norms and standards in order to break the self-reinforcing cycle of fearful anticipation and subsequent use of avoidance strategies. Patients are asked to intentionally create the feared negative consequences of a feared social situation. As a result, patients are forced to reevaluate the perceived threat of a social situation after experiencing that social mishaps do not lead to the feared long-lasting, irreversible, and negative consequences. A more detailed description of this model is presented in Hofmann (2007).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's silly, I think it's unfortunate and problematic for people on both sides of the equation, and that when obvious measures can be taken to lessen the problems for either troubled party they should be taken instead of having people insist that one side is clearly more important than the other. Making "harass a random stranger" part of someone's mental health recovery process is a shitty thing to do. The one where the person was asked to make elaborate demands of a concierge is far less offensive, as it is legitimately part of a concierge's job to try and meet those demands.
Would you have a meaningful life if your only human interaction was asking people for directions?
That is a laughably uncharitable reading of fraula's comment. Almost disingenuously so.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Would you have a meaningful life if your only human interaction was asking people for directions?
That is a laughably uncharitable reading of fraula's comment. Almost disingenuously so.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
But being asked for your phone number for no reason other than that you are a woman who is in a restaurant also sucks, and is insulting to boot.
Yeah, it's a conundrum. I don't love being harassed, either.
OTOH, I have a brother who struggled with this particular problem mightily until his mid-twenties. He was desperate enough to turn to PUA stuff for a bit somewhere along the line (and was pretty insufferable during that period). He eventually pulled through, and has a (delightful!) girlfriend etc., but there was a risk for a bit there that he'd turn to the dark side. I'd rather fewer men felt they had to do that.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:26 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's a conundrum. I don't love being harassed, either.
OTOH, I have a brother who struggled with this particular problem mightily until his mid-twenties. He was desperate enough to turn to PUA stuff for a bit somewhere along the line (and was pretty insufferable during that period). He eventually pulled through, and has a (delightful!) girlfriend etc., but there was a risk for a bit there that he'd turn to the dark side. I'd rather fewer men felt they had to do that.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:26 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Making "harass a random stranger" part of someone's mental health recovery process is a shitty thing to do.
Well, leaving the house means you're implicitly consenting to exposing yourself to anything that could happen, from encountering annoying buskers and charity muggers (or actual muggers) to being hit by a bus. For 98% of the issues people need help with, the balance of harm, imo, clearly weighs in favour of the person needing treatment.
I agree that it is something to be unpacked wrt the particular issue of men needing this therapy to help them get over a fear of approaching women.
That is a laughably uncharitable reading of fraula's comment. Almost disingenuously so.
I don't know if it is? Dating/approaching desired people is qualitatively different from asking for the time, it probably does demand specific therapeutic attention. It's possible to be entirely comfortable and smooth in an asking-for-the-time interaction and still have panic attacks about asking someone out.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:35 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, leaving the house means you're implicitly consenting to exposing yourself to anything that could happen, from encountering annoying buskers and charity muggers (or actual muggers) to being hit by a bus. For 98% of the issues people need help with, the balance of harm, imo, clearly weighs in favour of the person needing treatment.
I agree that it is something to be unpacked wrt the particular issue of men needing this therapy to help them get over a fear of approaching women.
That is a laughably uncharitable reading of fraula's comment. Almost disingenuously so.
I don't know if it is? Dating/approaching desired people is qualitatively different from asking for the time, it probably does demand specific therapeutic attention. It's possible to be entirely comfortable and smooth in an asking-for-the-time interaction and still have panic attacks about asking someone out.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:35 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
i think the reason most people seem to care more about (straight) men's social anxiety, especially as it relates to dating, is a fear of their loneliness being weaponized. i think this fear encourages people to feel like women should just suck it up or take one for the team or whatever. it also means that we pretty much never discuss the anxiety of women because women don't react to anxiety/isolation/loneliness by taking date rape training courses or going on shooting sprees over it. the thing is, most men don't react that way either, and yet the fear persists.
it's interesting to gender flip the exercise - a woman goes up to every man in a restaurant and asks him out - how does that go for her? or a man goes up to every man in a restaurant and strikes up a friendly conversation - how does that work out? these aren't suggested i think because we expect that men being approached could be violent in these scenarios. which, to me, makes suggestions like the one in the fpp about transferring emotional labor that a man really needs to do onto random women because we've been socialized to expect/accept it.
posted by nadawi at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
it's interesting to gender flip the exercise - a woman goes up to every man in a restaurant and asks him out - how does that go for her? or a man goes up to every man in a restaurant and strikes up a friendly conversation - how does that work out? these aren't suggested i think because we expect that men being approached could be violent in these scenarios. which, to me, makes suggestions like the one in the fpp about transferring emotional labor that a man really needs to do onto random women because we've been socialized to expect/accept it.
posted by nadawi at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
The exercise of asking all the women in the restaurant out is extreme, but some people probably respond better to that kind of therapeutic approach than to something more gradual. And the fact that it's in a situation where they're going to get shot down repeatedly could very well be a feature, not a bug. As opposed to speed dating, where everyone's sort of agreed that they're there for the same reason, i.e. to meet someone/ask someone out. It can be helpful to crash and burn and realize it's not the end of the world. I would hope a male therapist would be a little more sensitive about how the women involved might feel, but I can sort of see the reason behind it.
posted by 912 Greens at 10:52 AM on October 23, 2015
posted by 912 Greens at 10:52 AM on October 23, 2015
OTOH, I have a brother who struggled with this particular problem mightily until his mid-twenties. He was desperate enough to turn to PUA stuff for a bit somewhere along the line (and was pretty insufferable during that period). He eventually pulled through, and has a (delightful!) girlfriend etc., but there was a risk for a bit there that he'd turn to the dark side. I'd rather fewer men felt they had to do that.
I feel like there's a real shortage of good advice for men who want both to respect women and to actually enter into relationships with them. I know I personally feel a lot like naju when I read Metafilter's feminist threads. I don't want to be an asshole who harasses women, but now my threshold for what's harassment is set way higher than mainstream society thinks. So instead, women think I'm not interested in them.
Online dating, where it's 100% clear that people are actively looking, alleviates this a lot, but it also means you miss out on people you meet in real life. And it has its own set of problems, where it can feel more like online shopping than a human interaction.
Do y'all have any recommendations for books that model healthy dating interactions? Books that counter The Game and other PUA literature?
posted by JDHarper at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like there's a real shortage of good advice for men who want both to respect women and to actually enter into relationships with them. I know I personally feel a lot like naju when I read Metafilter's feminist threads. I don't want to be an asshole who harasses women, but now my threshold for what's harassment is set way higher than mainstream society thinks. So instead, women think I'm not interested in them.
Online dating, where it's 100% clear that people are actively looking, alleviates this a lot, but it also means you miss out on people you meet in real life. And it has its own set of problems, where it can feel more like online shopping than a human interaction.
Do y'all have any recommendations for books that model healthy dating interactions? Books that counter The Game and other PUA literature?
posted by JDHarper at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
most people seem to care more about (straight) men's social anxiety, especially as it relates to dating, is a fear of their loneliness being weaponized. i think this fear encourages people to feel like women should just suck it up or take one for the team or whatever. it also means that we pretty much never discuss the anxiety of women because women don't react to anxiety/isolation/loneliness by taking date rape training courses or going on shooting sprees over it. the thing is, most men don't react that way either, and yet the fear persists.
I'm not sure it's true that most people do care about men's social anxiety, at all, or more than women's, and I'm not sure we "almost never" discuss women's anxiety.
I think there is a concern about "lonely" men potentially going off. But it's not often framed in terms of empathetic concern for a defined mental health issue. As far as I've seen, they've been talked about as potential Elliot Rodgers who are weird, perverse, etc.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure it's true that most people do care about men's social anxiety, at all, or more than women's, and I'm not sure we "almost never" discuss women's anxiety.
I think there is a concern about "lonely" men potentially going off. But it's not often framed in terms of empathetic concern for a defined mental health issue. As far as I've seen, they've been talked about as potential Elliot Rodgers who are weird, perverse, etc.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
nadawi: I think it is more because men are expected to initiate. And because stereotypically men have to deal with explicit rejection more often, because women are desired, and men are not.
A woman who goes up to every man in a bar and asks them out is way more likely to walk out of the bar with a date than a man in the same scenario.
posted by JDHarper at 11:09 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
A woman who goes up to every man in a bar and asks them out is way more likely to walk out of the bar with a date than a man in the same scenario.
posted by JDHarper at 11:09 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a woman who is currently in therapy for this very issue. I have a lot of work ahead of me before I try actively befriending strangers, but I hope to maybe one day get there. It's why I started therapy.
Would you like me to give you an update when I do? Because it's not a thought exercise. Absolutely I will have my feminist beliefs about not being a terrible person while doing it. But I will still have to figure out how to trust that some social interaction isn't oppression.
It's not helpful with you saying "Hey hey hey! I know you're terrified of oppressing people and facing your biggest fear. Just remember that most women will feel oppressed, even if they don't tell you to your face"
And not helpful is a huge understatement. You are standing there in your privilege of not suffering this specific mental illness and saying something insanely triggering. I am not trying to be uncharitable. I understand that you speaking from a place of social justice that I agree with. You are speaking about an aspect of sexism that also hurts me. But you are also hurting me in the process and don't seem able to step back and recognize the intersectionality at play here.
posted by politikitty at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Would you like me to give you an update when I do? Because it's not a thought exercise. Absolutely I will have my feminist beliefs about not being a terrible person while doing it. But I will still have to figure out how to trust that some social interaction isn't oppression.
It's not helpful with you saying "Hey hey hey! I know you're terrified of oppressing people and facing your biggest fear. Just remember that most women will feel oppressed, even if they don't tell you to your face"
And not helpful is a huge understatement. You are standing there in your privilege of not suffering this specific mental illness and saying something insanely triggering. I am not trying to be uncharitable. I understand that you speaking from a place of social justice that I agree with. You are speaking about an aspect of sexism that also hurts me. But you are also hurting me in the process and don't seem able to step back and recognize the intersectionality at play here.
posted by politikitty at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure it's true that most people do care about men's social anxiety, at all, or more than women's, and I'm not sure we "almost never" discuss women's anxiety.
then we disagree. i feel like any time the general conversation about anxiety or women being harassed comes up the conversation very quickly centers on the concerns of men getting dates unless there is an explicit push to not do that (and even then, it usually ends up there).
And because stereotypically men have to deal with explicit rejection more often, because women are desired, and men are not.
i disagree here too - i think women who can't gets dates are just invisible because they almost never turn to violence over it.
posted by nadawi at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
then we disagree. i feel like any time the general conversation about anxiety or women being harassed comes up the conversation very quickly centers on the concerns of men getting dates unless there is an explicit push to not do that (and even then, it usually ends up there).
And because stereotypically men have to deal with explicit rejection more often, because women are desired, and men are not.
i disagree here too - i think women who can't gets dates are just invisible because they almost never turn to violence over it.
posted by nadawi at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
i feel like any time the general conversation about anxiety or women being harassed comes up the conversation very quickly centers on the concerns of men getting dates unless there is an explicit push to not do that (and even then, it usually ends up there).
Sorry to call you on this, but like, are you just talking about this thread, or have you seen this happen a lot in other discursive spaces?
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:17 AM on October 23, 2015
Sorry to call you on this, but like, are you just talking about this thread, or have you seen this happen a lot in other discursive spaces?
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:17 AM on October 23, 2015
i'm talking about the fpp, about this thread, about other threads we've had here, about discussions i've read other places, about discussions i've been a part of elsewhere, about literature written about it, about forums specifically dedicated to social anxiety, about group therapy. i feel like i've been very careful in trying to broaden my objections about the way social anxiety is approached and how to me it seems weighted to concerns of one group.
posted by nadawi at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Online dating, where it's 100% clear that people are actively looking, alleviates this a lot, but it also means you miss out on people you meet in real life.
As an extremely socially awkward person who has a tough time with body language unless I spell it out for myself, I have a ton of sympathy here. I'm trying to think of when I would be amenable to being approached by a man in public, like if I'm out walking or shopping or something. The thing is, it's completely unpredictable; some days I would absolutely be in the mood for that, other days I would be seriously irritated by it.
I think it's hard to put into words because almost all of it is in the body language. I feel like the men who have the most luck with public approaches are probably the ones who can read body language best, and who have a kind of "attraction sonar" that they can bounce off of people they're interested in. If the other person returns that tiny little body language probe, they might be OK with being approached.
So for example, if I'm out walking, I notice when men are looking at me (I'm going to write this from a heteronormative standpoint because that seems to be the big question in this thread). To be perfectly honest, the first thing I notice about a man is whether he's sending some kind of "I'm attracted to you" signal. If he looks at me for just a beat too long, I get the sense that he might be interested. If I'm attracted to him, I'll meet his eye, look down for a half-second, maybe do a little half-smile, and then usually look back up to look at him again. If he's looked away, I've misjudged the interaction; if he meets my eye, then there's an opening for one of us to say hello.
Now, there's a particular kind of looking-down that I mean here - just because a woman looks away when you meet her eye doesn't mean she's into it. If she looks up or sideways, that probably just means she wanted to break eye contact, and the part where she looks back at you a second time is key! I'm sure different women have different tells, but that one is damn near foolproof. It doesn't mean that she likes you and it definitely doesn't mean she would go on a date with you, but it's an opening.
There's certainly some nuance to the expression on the man's face while he's looking that can affect things, too - a dude who looked at me like he wanted to eat me for dinner would probably creep me out, but an open, friendly expression is always welcome even if I'm not really interested. But I think just being in the habit of sending super mild, non-threatening, no-pressure "I think you're cute" signals to women that you like (in the sense of that "attraction sonar" framing) can really go a long way to feeling more secure in those kinds of public interactions. Although that might be dangerously close to "how to draw an owl"-caliber advice...
posted by dialetheia at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
As an extremely socially awkward person who has a tough time with body language unless I spell it out for myself, I have a ton of sympathy here. I'm trying to think of when I would be amenable to being approached by a man in public, like if I'm out walking or shopping or something. The thing is, it's completely unpredictable; some days I would absolutely be in the mood for that, other days I would be seriously irritated by it.
I think it's hard to put into words because almost all of it is in the body language. I feel like the men who have the most luck with public approaches are probably the ones who can read body language best, and who have a kind of "attraction sonar" that they can bounce off of people they're interested in. If the other person returns that tiny little body language probe, they might be OK with being approached.
So for example, if I'm out walking, I notice when men are looking at me (I'm going to write this from a heteronormative standpoint because that seems to be the big question in this thread). To be perfectly honest, the first thing I notice about a man is whether he's sending some kind of "I'm attracted to you" signal. If he looks at me for just a beat too long, I get the sense that he might be interested. If I'm attracted to him, I'll meet his eye, look down for a half-second, maybe do a little half-smile, and then usually look back up to look at him again. If he's looked away, I've misjudged the interaction; if he meets my eye, then there's an opening for one of us to say hello.
Now, there's a particular kind of looking-down that I mean here - just because a woman looks away when you meet her eye doesn't mean she's into it. If she looks up or sideways, that probably just means she wanted to break eye contact, and the part where she looks back at you a second time is key! I'm sure different women have different tells, but that one is damn near foolproof. It doesn't mean that she likes you and it definitely doesn't mean she would go on a date with you, but it's an opening.
There's certainly some nuance to the expression on the man's face while he's looking that can affect things, too - a dude who looked at me like he wanted to eat me for dinner would probably creep me out, but an open, friendly expression is always welcome even if I'm not really interested. But I think just being in the habit of sending super mild, non-threatening, no-pressure "I think you're cute" signals to women that you like (in the sense of that "attraction sonar" framing) can really go a long way to feeling more secure in those kinds of public interactions. Although that might be dangerously close to "how to draw an owl"-caliber advice...
posted by dialetheia at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
i'm talking about the fpp, about this thread, about other threads we've had here, about discussions i've read other places, about discussions i've been a part of elsewhere, about literature written about it, about forums specifically dedicated to social anxiety, about group therapy. i feel like i've been very careful in trying to broaden my objections about the way social anxiety is approached and how to me it seems weighted to concerns of one group.
My casual and limited observation of discussion of this subject is that there are two kinds of discussions that tend to happen around this issue. Discussions that are framed as feminist or larger social issues, in thoughtful spaces, address women's (legit) concerns. Discussions framed as mental health issues weigh the interests of the sufferer of the mental health issue. I grant that gen pop discussion (e.g. comments sections of news sites) can be a total mess.
(I'm by no means any kind of expert on this. I have suffered from GAD and SAD, and no longer do; I at least identify as a feminist, and have experienced and resented probably an average amount of harassment, but also care about my brother, and other people's brothers (and sisters) and think they should have the same access to love that people who don't suffer from SAD might have, all else being equal).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
My casual and limited observation of discussion of this subject is that there are two kinds of discussions that tend to happen around this issue. Discussions that are framed as feminist or larger social issues, in thoughtful spaces, address women's (legit) concerns. Discussions framed as mental health issues weigh the interests of the sufferer of the mental health issue. I grant that gen pop discussion (e.g. comments sections of news sites) can be a total mess.
(I'm by no means any kind of expert on this. I have suffered from GAD and SAD, and no longer do; I at least identify as a feminist, and have experienced and resented probably an average amount of harassment, but also care about my brother, and other people's brothers (and sisters) and think they should have the same access to love that people who don't suffer from SAD might have, all else being equal).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was directly at a number of disparate comments made upstream that all feel that this is the right thread to get angry about sexist men.
When someone complains about white people, I understand that their complaint is directed at the action that many white people, but not necessarily me, engage in. When women complain about men, it's unspoken that it's Not All Men.
Privilege blinds us, and absolutely we should try to spend time to understand the myriad of consequences we don't see.
But that myriad of consequences paralyzes me. It's what I do every single second of the day. And I do it to a degree that I am not helping any causes. I am not available to behave appropriately so that a larger percentage of interactions with privileged white women are pleasant and not racist.
It is awful that social justice is so triggering to me and I have to nope out of discussions. But that doesn't mean I'm not an ardent believer or passive observer. I recognize that everything triggers me and I try not to place that burden on movements that I believe in.
I'm sorry that you don't think therapy shames people enough. But they don't because it doesn't work. It is incredibly damaging to the process. If you think you need to introduce shame and guilt because our safe space feels triggering for you, maybe just don't?
posted by politikitty at 11:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
When someone complains about white people, I understand that their complaint is directed at the action that many white people, but not necessarily me, engage in. When women complain about men, it's unspoken that it's Not All Men.
Privilege blinds us, and absolutely we should try to spend time to understand the myriad of consequences we don't see.
But that myriad of consequences paralyzes me. It's what I do every single second of the day. And I do it to a degree that I am not helping any causes. I am not available to behave appropriately so that a larger percentage of interactions with privileged white women are pleasant and not racist.
It is awful that social justice is so triggering to me and I have to nope out of discussions. But that doesn't mean I'm not an ardent believer or passive observer. I recognize that everything triggers me and I try not to place that burden on movements that I believe in.
I'm sorry that you don't think therapy shames people enough. But they don't because it doesn't work. It is incredibly damaging to the process. If you think you need to introduce shame and guilt because our safe space feels triggering for you, maybe just don't?
posted by politikitty at 11:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread hits a little close to home, with the "perceived social norms and standards" and avoidance strategies. I've never been diagnosed with social anxiety, and I'm not sure I have it, per se, but I am overanalytical and deathly afraid of inconveniencing people.
My strategy, for all of my life, has been to find workarounds. Usually this works well enough. I was terrified of approaching women, so I tried online dating, and met my wife. I'm afraid of calling people out of the blue, but I have to interview people on the phone for my job - so I schedule the calls in advance.
But, look: while scheduling calls in advance works fine 95% of the time, I'd probably be better at my job if I did not have this particular hang-up. I get myself tied up in knots whenever I have to bother my landlord to fix something (and they always need to be bothered), because I hate bothering people.
So, you know, it doesn't totally go away, this thing. Part of me is terrified of the day when I am going to have to do something that triggers my fears for which there is no workaround.
That said, I don't know that this baptism-by-fire stuff really works, either. I once had a job where I had to call people out of the blue more often, and I was kind of able to do it, but I always felt like I was doing it wrong somehow, and it caused me crazy amounts of stress.
posted by breakin' the law at 11:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
My strategy, for all of my life, has been to find workarounds. Usually this works well enough. I was terrified of approaching women, so I tried online dating, and met my wife. I'm afraid of calling people out of the blue, but I have to interview people on the phone for my job - so I schedule the calls in advance.
But, look: while scheduling calls in advance works fine 95% of the time, I'd probably be better at my job if I did not have this particular hang-up. I get myself tied up in knots whenever I have to bother my landlord to fix something (and they always need to be bothered), because I hate bothering people.
So, you know, it doesn't totally go away, this thing. Part of me is terrified of the day when I am going to have to do something that triggers my fears for which there is no workaround.
That said, I don't know that this baptism-by-fire stuff really works, either. I once had a job where I had to call people out of the blue more often, and I was kind of able to do it, but I always felt like I was doing it wrong somehow, and it caused me crazy amounts of stress.
posted by breakin' the law at 11:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
cotton dress sock - my "weighted to the concerns of one group" wasn't feminists vs sufferers - but rather straight male sufferers vs other sufferers with the same condition.
politikitty - maybe you missed me mentioning it upthread, but i have a range of anxiety disorders.
posted by nadawi at 11:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
politikitty - maybe you missed me mentioning it upthread, but i have a range of anxiety disorders.
posted by nadawi at 11:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry to hear you're a fellow sufferer. It's not a great place to be. But I fail to see the therapeutic value in shame when it comes to curing social anxiety.
Sexism is a systemic issue and as such bleeds into every institution. I think it is appropriate to say that the example given is gross. I also said that.
But your ask goes further than that. It inserts itself into the therapy of sick individuals and delays medical assistance for your political beliefs, regardless of whether or not they disagree with you.
Doctors shouldn't lecture me before I schedule my abortion and make me wait 72 hours so I can think it over. This is equally gross.
posted by politikitty at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2015
Sexism is a systemic issue and as such bleeds into every institution. I think it is appropriate to say that the example given is gross. I also said that.
But your ask goes further than that. It inserts itself into the therapy of sick individuals and delays medical assistance for your political beliefs, regardless of whether or not they disagree with you.
Doctors shouldn't lecture me before I schedule my abortion and make me wait 72 hours so I can think it over. This is equally gross.
posted by politikitty at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2015
But your ask goes further than that. It inserts itself into the therapy of sick individuals and delays medical assistance for your political beliefs, regardless of whether or not they disagree with you.
The only "ask" I saw in nadawi's comments was a suggestion that men with social anxiety should try other exercises to address it rather than asking complete strangers out on dates. I'm not following how this is somehow delaying medical assistance to anybody.
posted by Lexica at 12:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
The only "ask" I saw in nadawi's comments was a suggestion that men with social anxiety should try other exercises to address it rather than asking complete strangers out on dates. I'm not following how this is somehow delaying medical assistance to anybody.
posted by Lexica at 12:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
It seems there's not a ton written yet about this specific intervention compared to others. If it's significantly and substantially more effective than regular CBT (which too often, in practice, by overwhelming anecdotal account, at least [though this might be my biased intake of info], is light on the behavioural side and not necessarily perfectly rigorous on the cognitive side, either), then the question is - is it right to withhold this treatment from people who could benefit from it?
From what I've read, in general, exposure to feared situations and minimizing of avoidance behaviours tends to be helpful for anxiety disorders. The individualized approach to the exposure and naturalistic setting are distinctive here and probably what make this therapy as powerful as it seems to be (according to that paper).
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:35 PM on October 23, 2015
From what I've read, in general, exposure to feared situations and minimizing of avoidance behaviours tends to be helpful for anxiety disorders. The individualized approach to the exposure and naturalistic setting are distinctive here and probably what make this therapy as powerful as it seems to be (according to that paper).
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:35 PM on October 23, 2015
Doctors shouldn't lecture me before I schedule my abortion and make me wait 72 hours so I can think it over. This is equally gross.
Equally gross? lol
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Equally gross? lol
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
(compared to imagined exposure, e.g. role playing etc)
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:37 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:37 PM on October 23, 2015
The point I think politikitty is getting at is that in feminism threads, men are asked to not make the threads about their feelings. This is the other side of the coin.
This is a thread about social anxiety disorder, and the most highly favorited comment in the thread is about sexism and how terrible men are.
posted by JDHarper at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a thread about social anxiety disorder, and the most highly favorited comment in the thread is about sexism and how terrible men are.
posted by JDHarper at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Equally gross? lol
I'm sorry. Potentially more gross. At least I know that waiting law only delays me for 3 days.
Exposure therapy requires an absence of shame from the therapist. Introducing it into the process is literally reducing the efficacy of care. Imagine Republicans allowed RU-486. But only if formulated to have 60% efficacy. Maybe you get your abortion.
I readily admit that it's likely that wasn't nadawi's intent in the bulk of her statements. My life *is* emotional work unraveling perception from intent. And my disorder is taking on emotional work that is unnecessary and often counter-productive.
When I misstep, it is not because I was unaware of the harm I might cause. It's that I was so distracted by all the other ways I could hurt someone, most of which are not real or likely, I miscalculated the choice of least harm.
This is fundamentally different from the harm caused by privilege, despite having the same result.
posted by politikitty at 1:00 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry. Potentially more gross. At least I know that waiting law only delays me for 3 days.
Exposure therapy requires an absence of shame from the therapist. Introducing it into the process is literally reducing the efficacy of care. Imagine Republicans allowed RU-486. But only if formulated to have 60% efficacy. Maybe you get your abortion.
I readily admit that it's likely that wasn't nadawi's intent in the bulk of her statements. My life *is* emotional work unraveling perception from intent. And my disorder is taking on emotional work that is unnecessary and often counter-productive.
When I misstep, it is not because I was unaware of the harm I might cause. It's that I was so distracted by all the other ways I could hurt someone, most of which are not real or likely, I miscalculated the choice of least harm.
This is fundamentally different from the harm caused by privilege, despite having the same result.
posted by politikitty at 1:00 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
the most highly favorited comment in the thread is about sexism and how terrible men are
That is an extremely gross distortion of that comment.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:02 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
That is an extremely gross distortion of that comment.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:02 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
zombieflanders: To be clear, I'm referring to poffin boffin's comment.
posted by JDHarper at 1:23 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by JDHarper at 1:23 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with zombieflanders. In the first place, I don't see why it's bad to bring up sexism in a thread about treating social anxiety disorder when a potential treatment for the latter has sexist implications. In the second place, I don't think "Men are terrible" is an accurate paraphrase of a comment that rhetorically asks why it's acceptable for an anxiety treatment to burden random strange women with sexual attention.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:32 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:32 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry that you don't think therapy shames people enough. But they don't because it doesn't work. It is incredibly damaging to the process. If you think you need to introduce shame and guilt because our safe space feels triggering for you, maybe just don't?
Who said therapy should shame people more? Which safe space? I'm so confused.
I do social stuff that makes me very anxious every day. Exposure has not seemed to help me at all, but I think maybe the useful part is actually the discussion beforehand about the perceived harm, and the discussion afterwards about whether the harm occurred.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who said therapy should shame people more? Which safe space? I'm so confused.
I do social stuff that makes me very anxious every day. Exposure has not seemed to help me at all, but I think maybe the useful part is actually the discussion beforehand about the perceived harm, and the discussion afterwards about whether the harm occurred.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
my "weighted to the concerns of one group" wasn't feminists vs sufferers - but rather straight male sufferers vs other sufferers with the same condition.
I guess there's a lot I'm missing, then. There certainly are people who do not have access to appropriate treatment due to a systematic failure to accommodate their positionality in the context of the general social matrix / identity. More could be done for women. More could be done all around.
But I understood the specific question we were talking about to be whether men understood specifically as having social anxiety disorder or social phobia (vs. as "creeps", "weirdos", "fedora-wearing neckbeards", "rape culture proponents" or "frustrated potential PUAers") benefited from attention and treatment in comparison to women sufferers of anxiety. Women do seem to suffer higher rates of anxiety (and many other mental) disorders and greater resulting disability. Some research suggests, though, that men's anxiety appears to present differently, specifically as addiction; not sure how / whether other comorbidities might play into it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess there's a lot I'm missing, then. There certainly are people who do not have access to appropriate treatment due to a systematic failure to accommodate their positionality in the context of the general social matrix / identity. More could be done for women. More could be done all around.
But I understood the specific question we were talking about to be whether men understood specifically as having social anxiety disorder or social phobia (vs. as "creeps", "weirdos", "fedora-wearing neckbeards", "rape culture proponents" or "frustrated potential PUAers") benefited from attention and treatment in comparison to women sufferers of anxiety. Women do seem to suffer higher rates of anxiety (and many other mental) disorders and greater resulting disability. Some research suggests, though, that men's anxiety appears to present differently, specifically as addiction; not sure how / whether other comorbidities might play into it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
cotton dress sock and politikitty - neither of you seem to have actually groked any point i was making and i'm feeling rather targeted in arguments i was never engaging in so i'd appreciate it if y'all found another avenue which doesn't involve me for whatever it is you're trying to discuss.
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't see why getting consent is a huge bar to this kind of therapy.
Something could probably be arranged. It would probably just be expensive. (E.g. an assistant following a patient around in the world and prepping people for the exercise, or debriefing them after the fact if they appear distressed).
(I don't know whether group therapy is as effective as this therapy is claimed to be, but I think efficacy does matter. It does seem that there's some additional heft to this therapy. But it's true that it's probably not the only game in town. If something is like 20% less effective but minimizes risk of harm to the public by yay more percent, no big.)
But I do think the perception of risk here is slightly overblown. It's not like there are battalions of exposure therapists unleashing reams of socially anxious men on unsuspecting women in every city. The exercise is like a minute or two long and consists of a guy asking for a number in a kind of obnoxious way. And tbh, if he's a socially anxious person, I think he's going to come across differently from someone with the physical habitus of a regular catcaller.
I mean if I am afraid of planes I definitely should get exposure therapy. I don't get to just be on whatever plane I want without asking permission.
You do, though, you can just buy a ticket and be as eccentric in your seat as the next person. Going out in the world involves exposure to risk and chance and odd stuff happening.
And people aren't dogs, most can speak for themselves and say "nope". (Prevalence of SAD is like 4-12% on the top end, odds of two SAD sufferers colliding is pretty low.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:51 PM on October 23, 2015
Something could probably be arranged. It would probably just be expensive. (E.g. an assistant following a patient around in the world and prepping people for the exercise, or debriefing them after the fact if they appear distressed).
(I don't know whether group therapy is as effective as this therapy is claimed to be, but I think efficacy does matter. It does seem that there's some additional heft to this therapy. But it's true that it's probably not the only game in town. If something is like 20% less effective but minimizes risk of harm to the public by yay more percent, no big.)
But I do think the perception of risk here is slightly overblown. It's not like there are battalions of exposure therapists unleashing reams of socially anxious men on unsuspecting women in every city. The exercise is like a minute or two long and consists of a guy asking for a number in a kind of obnoxious way. And tbh, if he's a socially anxious person, I think he's going to come across differently from someone with the physical habitus of a regular catcaller.
I mean if I am afraid of planes I definitely should get exposure therapy. I don't get to just be on whatever plane I want without asking permission.
You do, though, you can just buy a ticket and be as eccentric in your seat as the next person. Going out in the world involves exposure to risk and chance and odd stuff happening.
And people aren't dogs, most can speak for themselves and say "nope". (Prevalence of SAD is like 4-12% on the top end, odds of two SAD sufferers colliding is pretty low.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:51 PM on October 23, 2015
I think I did grok your point, nadawi, I just didn't necessarily agree, but I won't carry on further if you prefer, no problem.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:53 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:53 PM on October 23, 2015
But I understood the specific question we were talking about to be whether men understood specifically as having social anxiety disorder or social phobia...benefited from attention and treatment in comparison to women sufferers of anxiety.
That is not my understanding of this discussion at all. I thought we were discussing whether men with social anxiety should be specifically counseled to approach women they don't know to ask them on dates, because many women find being approached in this manner threatening, or anxiety-triggering.
Definitely men with social anxiety should receive treatment! Definitely! But in ways that do not stress or trigger other people.
The speed dating idea was perfect. Those people have specifically consented to be asked out.
Well, leaving the house means you're implicitly consenting to exposing yourself to anything that could happen
I'm pretty aghast at the idea that women who leave the house have consented to participating in random men's therapy, when so many women have expressed what a burden and threat being approached in this manner is to them.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
That is not my understanding of this discussion at all. I thought we were discussing whether men with social anxiety should be specifically counseled to approach women they don't know to ask them on dates, because many women find being approached in this manner threatening, or anxiety-triggering.
Definitely men with social anxiety should receive treatment! Definitely! But in ways that do not stress or trigger other people.
The speed dating idea was perfect. Those people have specifically consented to be asked out.
Well, leaving the house means you're implicitly consenting to exposing yourself to anything that could happen
I'm pretty aghast at the idea that women who leave the house have consented to participating in random men's therapy, when so many women have expressed what a burden and threat being approached in this manner is to them.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Sorry, I thought you meant as a means of dealing with fear of flying, i.e. you don't need permission to treat your flight as a therapeutic exercise, you can buy your ticket and have whatever experience in your seat.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
It is not about consent. You do not need consent to talk to a stranger. You need consent to engage in a conversation with someone.
Men should do the emotional work to perceive whether or not a woman seems open to that conversation.
Exposure therapy is about letting go of emotional work, because you are doing it wrong. Not ignoring it altogether, but learning what kinds of emotional work is helpful in maintaining social cohesion and which is harmful and causes isolation.
That's why this type of talk is derailing when discussing how to fix social anxiety.
posted by politikitty at 2:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Men should do the emotional work to perceive whether or not a woman seems open to that conversation.
Exposure therapy is about letting go of emotional work, because you are doing it wrong. Not ignoring it altogether, but learning what kinds of emotional work is helpful in maintaining social cohesion and which is harmful and causes isolation.
That's why this type of talk is derailing when discussing how to fix social anxiety.
posted by politikitty at 2:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
zombieflanders: To be clear, I'm referring to poffin boffin's comment.
Which says nothing about how terrible men are. It just mentions that not taking the perspective of the women being approached into consideration is kind of gross. Which it is, especially if they have anxieties of their own, including the 100% reasonableone of being approached by strange men and their reactions to even the most polite of dismissals.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Which says nothing about how terrible men are. It just mentions that not taking the perspective of the women being approached into consideration is kind of gross. Which it is, especially if they have anxieties of their own, including the 100% reasonableone of being approached by strange men and their reactions to even the most polite of dismissals.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Things do happen, people from different worlds and perspectives interact and talk to each other and exist in each others' shared space, not every person is going to conform to everyone's idea of ideal behaviour.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is that in response to me? Because dismissing the sense of entitlement men have towards womens' time and physical space as just "something that happens" and a simple matter of differing perspectives is dangerously wrong.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Agh, ok, I just think it's all very unfortunate. In the world we have,
- straight men are still expected to ask straight women out, for the most part
- straight men (mostly straight white men, but getting into race at this point will complicate an already hairy discussion, perhaps if we clear this hurdle we can address it separately) dominate the social hierarchy bc patriarchy
- many women have miserable experiences with straight men as a group for systematic reasons
- the expectation for men to behave as aggressors hurts both women and men in this instance
also
- access to therapy sucks, full stop; access to quality, effective therapy is worse
- this intervention shows some promise; whether it is yay enough better than other approaches is an empirical question; whether the benefits of this therapy for men for this problem outweigh the potential cost to women is (imo) also a somewhat empirical question, also a moral one,
- in summary, idk
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
- straight men are still expected to ask straight women out, for the most part
- straight men (mostly straight white men, but getting into race at this point will complicate an already hairy discussion, perhaps if we clear this hurdle we can address it separately) dominate the social hierarchy bc patriarchy
- many women have miserable experiences with straight men as a group for systematic reasons
- the expectation for men to behave as aggressors hurts both women and men in this instance
also
- access to therapy sucks, full stop; access to quality, effective therapy is worse
- this intervention shows some promise; whether it is yay enough better than other approaches is an empirical question; whether the benefits of this therapy for men for this problem outweigh the potential cost to women is (imo) also a somewhat empirical question, also a moral one,
- in summary, idk
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like I might be overcommenting a bit, so I'll try to clarify this then shut up for a while:
I agree with zombieflanders. In the first place, I don't see why it's bad to bring up sexism in a thread about treating social anxiety disorder when a potential treatment for the latter has sexist implications. In the second place, I don't think "Men are terrible" is an accurate paraphrase of a comment that rhetorically asks why it's acceptable for an anxiety treatment to burden random strange women with sexual attention.
I am not saying that I think the methodology of "harass random strangers" is good practice. It's not, for reasons abundantly explained by previous commenters. You're right about all the ethical issues.
But what poffin boffin actually said was "Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves."
You can see how this can be read as "men are the worst, especially men who are trying to find a relationship," right? Which is exactly the sort of response that a male social anxiety sufferer is afraid of. It's not a charitable reading of her comment, but that's exactly the sort of distortion that social anxiety disorder imposes on communication.
posted by JDHarper at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree with zombieflanders. In the first place, I don't see why it's bad to bring up sexism in a thread about treating social anxiety disorder when a potential treatment for the latter has sexist implications. In the second place, I don't think "Men are terrible" is an accurate paraphrase of a comment that rhetorically asks why it's acceptable for an anxiety treatment to burden random strange women with sexual attention.
I am not saying that I think the methodology of "harass random strangers" is good practice. It's not, for reasons abundantly explained by previous commenters. You're right about all the ethical issues.
But what poffin boffin actually said was "Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves."
You can see how this can be read as "men are the worst, especially men who are trying to find a relationship," right? Which is exactly the sort of response that a male social anxiety sufferer is afraid of. It's not a charitable reading of her comment, but that's exactly the sort of distortion that social anxiety disorder imposes on communication.
posted by JDHarper at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's dangerously wrong because it's institutionalized in a way that feeds into our sexist world.
But the fact is that it's true. Remove all the social ills in the world, and interacting with people still require emotional work. It's just evenly distributed. You will still inconvenience others. It just isn't the end of the world.
I'm going to guess that you didn't have a panic attack typing up that comment. Didn't agonize that maybe you were overstating the issue. That would be the normal response. But you also navigated what emotional work was not necessary to be your definition of a decent person. Skipped right over it.
posted by politikitty at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015
But the fact is that it's true. Remove all the social ills in the world, and interacting with people still require emotional work. It's just evenly distributed. You will still inconvenience others. It just isn't the end of the world.
I'm going to guess that you didn't have a panic attack typing up that comment. Didn't agonize that maybe you were overstating the issue. That would be the normal response. But you also navigated what emotional work was not necessary to be your definition of a decent person. Skipped right over it.
posted by politikitty at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015
I just don't see the problem with moving the exercise to a mixer or a speed dating event or a club or some other event where there is at least some expectation of consent to be asked out instead of a restaurant or the sidewalk or a bus where most people are not going to be interested. I mean, there's still the risk of rejection, you'd still be relearning how to manage an anxiety inducing social relationship.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 2:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Is that in response to me?
No, I'm just saying that it's impossible to control every interaction you might happen into. I think as a society we should have some tolerance for "eccentric" behaviour and "eccentric" people, and people with mental illness in particular. It sucks that men with social anxiety are stuck in the position they're in.
It is also true that this isn't a binary question (just this therapy or no therapy), there are intermediate options.
I think I'll bow out at this point.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, I'm just saying that it's impossible to control every interaction you might happen into. I think as a society we should have some tolerance for "eccentric" behaviour and "eccentric" people, and people with mental illness in particular. It sucks that men with social anxiety are stuck in the position they're in.
It is also true that this isn't a binary question (just this therapy or no therapy), there are intermediate options.
I think I'll bow out at this point.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, but asking a random woman out in public isn't eccentric behavior. That's the entire problem. If it were eccentric, there wouldn't be as much of an issue with it. The problem is that it's a common, entitled behavior.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I mean, there's still the risk of rejection, you'd still be relearning how to manage an anxiety inducing social relationship.
Yeah, there is still risk of rejection but it is lessened. Your chances of success have to go up if the women you are asking are actually looking for someone. Getting a "yes" is a big confidence booster and has to be helpful in the therapy. It makes sense to design the therapy in such a way as you are increasing those chances.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:53 PM on October 23, 2015
Yeah, there is still risk of rejection but it is lessened. Your chances of success have to go up if the women you are asking are actually looking for someone. Getting a "yes" is a big confidence booster and has to be helpful in the therapy. It makes sense to design the therapy in such a way as you are increasing those chances.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:53 PM on October 23, 2015
It makes sense to design the therapy in such a way as you are increasing those chances.
I think the rationale for this one is that you expose people to an exaggerated form of the most feared thing (in this case lots of rejection). The goal isn't to increase the chance of dating on that occasion, it's to reduce the fear. Which yes, means behaving obnoxiously, from the POV of the SAD sufferer and probably of some of the women who are drawn into the therapy.
The problem is that it's a common, entitled behavior.
Yeah.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:00 PM on October 23, 2015
I think the rationale for this one is that you expose people to an exaggerated form of the most feared thing (in this case lots of rejection). The goal isn't to increase the chance of dating on that occasion, it's to reduce the fear. Which yes, means behaving obnoxiously, from the POV of the SAD sufferer and probably of some of the women who are drawn into the therapy.
The problem is that it's a common, entitled behavior.
Yeah.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:00 PM on October 23, 2015
Okay, but asking a random woman out in public isn't eccentric behavior. That's the entire problem. If it were eccentric, there wouldn't be as much of an issue with it. The problem is that it's a common, entitled behavior.
Exactly. I feel like this therapist is trying to a solve a problem that doesn't need solving. Like treating "I get intense anxiety that blaring my car alarm at 2am would disturb my neighbors" with "Ok, so try blaring your car alarm at 2am around some strangers so you're less anxious about doing it around your neighbors." When actually, no one wants to have the blaring car alarm at 2am, so, while the anxiety is not good, the avoidance of the behavior is actually the desired societal result.
Wouldn't it be better to explain to the patient that, actually, despite misogynistic rape culture depictions in media, many many women do not want to be cold approached. That many women are justifiably afraid of being randomly approached by men for dates (because these encounters often end violently). That while men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. That confining ones dating behaviors to specific dating contexts (like speed dating or online dating) is actually a completely ok thing to do and the preferred method for many women.
I think far more men should have far higher anxiety about how their presence affects the women around them. The blase dude who tramples over womens' personal space and time is not a good model for ideal male behavior.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:25 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Exactly. I feel like this therapist is trying to a solve a problem that doesn't need solving. Like treating "I get intense anxiety that blaring my car alarm at 2am would disturb my neighbors" with "Ok, so try blaring your car alarm at 2am around some strangers so you're less anxious about doing it around your neighbors." When actually, no one wants to have the blaring car alarm at 2am, so, while the anxiety is not good, the avoidance of the behavior is actually the desired societal result.
Wouldn't it be better to explain to the patient that, actually, despite misogynistic rape culture depictions in media, many many women do not want to be cold approached. That many women are justifiably afraid of being randomly approached by men for dates (because these encounters often end violently). That while men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. That confining ones dating behaviors to specific dating contexts (like speed dating or online dating) is actually a completely ok thing to do and the preferred method for many women.
I think far more men should have far higher anxiety about how their presence affects the women around them. The blase dude who tramples over womens' personal space and time is not a good model for ideal male behavior.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:25 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think far more men should have far higher anxiety about how their presence affects the women around them.
I see where you're going, yes, dudebros should learn to keep themselves to themselves, but these aren't the blase dudes. These are painfully, pathologically cautious people, who aren't going into this exercise to model themselves after the dudebros; the idea isn't that they should learn to pick women up at restaurants any more than Mary is going to five-star hotels and asking for rose petals on her bed and a horse-drawn carriage to learn how to behave like Paris Hilton.
It is an exercise in reductive absurdity that is meant to generalize to other kinds of approach behaviours, including ones many of us would agree are appropriate.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I see where you're going, yes, dudebros should learn to keep themselves to themselves, but these aren't the blase dudes. These are painfully, pathologically cautious people, who aren't going into this exercise to model themselves after the dudebros; the idea isn't that they should learn to pick women up at restaurants any more than Mary is going to five-star hotels and asking for rose petals on her bed and a horse-drawn carriage to learn how to behave like Paris Hilton.
It is an exercise in reductive absurdity that is meant to generalize to other kinds of approach behaviours, including ones many of us would agree are appropriate.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
"I think far more men should have far higher anxiety about how their presence affects the women around them."
That's absolutely the worst thing one person could say to another with a social anxiety disorder. Worst, meanest, fucking thing.
Did you not read TFA? How about the title? (Hint: it wasn't "Harrassing Women the Go To Therapy for Social Anxiety Disorder") How about, everything except the last question and followup? The interviewee made an unfortunate choice in her example of the sort of "...individualized exposure treatments, constructing something that we would call a 'social mishap' exercise" used for treatment. The answer threw the interviewer enough for a followup OMG. Half of the commenters here glommed onto the feminist implications of that poorly chosen example and completely shut up the other half making pleas to consider intersectionality - or at least to stick to the germane points made in TFA. Maybe, just for a sec, take off the fem lenses, put on the mental illness lenses, and re-read TFA.
posted by klarck at 4:18 PM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
That's absolutely the worst thing one person could say to another with a social anxiety disorder. Worst, meanest, fucking thing.
Did you not read TFA? How about the title? (Hint: it wasn't "Harrassing Women the Go To Therapy for Social Anxiety Disorder") How about, everything except the last question and followup? The interviewee made an unfortunate choice in her example of the sort of "...individualized exposure treatments, constructing something that we would call a 'social mishap' exercise" used for treatment. The answer threw the interviewer enough for a followup OMG. Half of the commenters here glommed onto the feminist implications of that poorly chosen example and completely shut up the other half making pleas to consider intersectionality - or at least to stick to the germane points made in TFA. Maybe, just for a sec, take off the fem lenses, put on the mental illness lenses, and re-read TFA.
posted by klarck at 4:18 PM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Exactly. I feel like this therapist is trying to a solve a problem that doesn't need solving. Like treating "I get intense anxiety that blaring my car alarm at 2am would disturb my neighbors" with "Ok, so try blaring your car alarm at 2am around some strangers so you're less anxious about doing it around your neighbors." When actually, no one wants to have the blaring car alarm at 2am, so, while the anxiety is not good, the avoidance of the behavior is actually the desired societal result.
I'd say it's more like treating "I get intense anxiety about driving anywhere because I might accidentally trip the alarm and disturb my neighbors" with "Ok, so try blaring your car alarm at 2am around some strangers so you're less anxious about it happening." Not being able to drive can make your life difficult in many places and lack of companionship can be detrimental to one's long term health and happiness.
Now you might say that fewer people should own personal vehicles because of their impact on the environment, and I'd completely agree with you, but unfortunately that isn't really a choice for many people at present. Large scale cultural change takes time and significant effort. I believe that far more men should agitate towards a world where giving unwanted attention to women wasn't considered a normal way to find a partner, but that does not help an anxious man function better in the world.
Anxiety is irrational and inward looking. It latches on to the social narratives it likes and amplifies them a hundredfold, while ignoring any that might conflict with those. When you come across a conversation where people less privileged than you vent about how they are treated, you immediately try and see how your past interactions fit into that narrative. This occurs regardless of your actual past behavior. Your brain will work overtime to find ingenious ways of interpreting every single thing as evidence of your own horribleness.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 4:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd say it's more like treating "I get intense anxiety about driving anywhere because I might accidentally trip the alarm and disturb my neighbors" with "Ok, so try blaring your car alarm at 2am around some strangers so you're less anxious about it happening." Not being able to drive can make your life difficult in many places and lack of companionship can be detrimental to one's long term health and happiness.
Now you might say that fewer people should own personal vehicles because of their impact on the environment, and I'd completely agree with you, but unfortunately that isn't really a choice for many people at present. Large scale cultural change takes time and significant effort. I believe that far more men should agitate towards a world where giving unwanted attention to women wasn't considered a normal way to find a partner, but that does not help an anxious man function better in the world.
Anxiety is irrational and inward looking. It latches on to the social narratives it likes and amplifies them a hundredfold, while ignoring any that might conflict with those. When you come across a conversation where people less privileged than you vent about how they are treated, you immediately try and see how your past interactions fit into that narrative. This occurs regardless of your actual past behavior. Your brain will work overtime to find ingenious ways of interpreting every single thing as evidence of your own horribleness.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 4:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
the idea isn't that they should learn to pick women up at restaurants any more than Mary is going to five-star hotels and asking for rose petals on her bed and a horse-drawn carriage to learn how to behave like Paris Hilton.
Anxiety over approaching customer service people in a business context for requests relevant to that business context is not the same thing as anxiety over approaching random women out in public for sex (well, dating). One is an anxiety that would impact your daily life even in a nonmisogynistic society and the other is anxiety that impacts your daily life only if you treat women as objects (intentionally or not). And the therapist should aim to reduce this objectification of women in the patient's mind rather than helping them act upon that objectification anxiety-free.
Maybe, just for a sec, take off the fem lenses, put on the mental illness lenses, and re-read TFA.
Women, including possibly the random restaurant-goers, suffer from mental illness too.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Anxiety over approaching customer service people in a business context for requests relevant to that business context is not the same thing as anxiety over approaching random women out in public for sex (well, dating). One is an anxiety that would impact your daily life even in a nonmisogynistic society and the other is anxiety that impacts your daily life only if you treat women as objects (intentionally or not). And the therapist should aim to reduce this objectification of women in the patient's mind rather than helping them act upon that objectification anxiety-free.
Maybe, just for a sec, take off the fem lenses, put on the mental illness lenses, and re-read TFA.
Women, including possibly the random restaurant-goers, suffer from mental illness too.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's not about dealing with anxiety about "approaching random women for sex", though, or teaching them to do that. That's not the point at all. It's about getting people to the point where they can talk to women, period. Maybe the ultimate goal is getting them to even sign up for something like OKC or a speed dating event. So they deliberately amp up the situation to make it the most feared one - i.e. being rejected by random women in this totally ridiculous and over-the-top scenario. They become desensitized to that, and learn that their fear is unreasonable.
(Should more men in the general population learn to not objectify women in harmful ways, absolutely, but I think there's bound to be some measure of objectification when it comes to sexual attraction, regardless of who's involved.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:05 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
(Should more men in the general population learn to not objectify women in harmful ways, absolutely, but I think there's bound to be some measure of objectification when it comes to sexual attraction, regardless of who's involved.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:05 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
And the issues of attraction and love are definitely things that impact people's day to day lives, and they're completely different from business interactions.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:07 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:07 PM on October 23, 2015
I... what? I'm a recovering agoraphobe who maintains a tenuous grip on reality thanks to modern medicine. I feel for you, my brothers and sisters living in anxiety, but I want no part in someone else's exposure therapy. I got my own shit to deal with. It is a daily struggle for me to walk down the long hallway at work every week day, and that's a relatively comfortable space for me. I have safe people at work to help me through a panic attack. If I'm alone in public, which is scary for me in the very best of circumstances, and I get approached by someone looking for a date... that's really aggressive and terrifying for me. I want to be left alone, and that's my right. I'm reading comments here that imply that my very existence in a public place is asking to be approached. As a woman, and as a human being with a mental illness, that's the type of thing that makes me want to stay on my couch forever.
posted by Ruki at 5:16 PM on October 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 5:16 PM on October 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
And the issues of attraction and love are definitely things that impact people's day to day lives, and they're completely different from business interactions.
I totally get that and I'm not trying to say that someone with this particular anxiety trigger is not genuinely suffering. But the treatment proposed [by a doctor who should be considering overall ethical issues] requires that random women do the rejecting -- an action that, as many many many women have stated/written, can often lead to violence. Regardless of whether this particular person is violent, putting women, who have no prior knowledge of him, in the position of having to determine whether he's dangerous and how to reject him without causing him to become violent is not an ethical thing to do. I'm not saying the person is not deserving of treatment, but that the treatment disregards the women who are forced to be participants.
(I've said my piece, I'll drop it now)
posted by melissasaurus at 5:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I totally get that and I'm not trying to say that someone with this particular anxiety trigger is not genuinely suffering. But the treatment proposed [by a doctor who should be considering overall ethical issues] requires that random women do the rejecting -- an action that, as many many many women have stated/written, can often lead to violence. Regardless of whether this particular person is violent, putting women, who have no prior knowledge of him, in the position of having to determine whether he's dangerous and how to reject him without causing him to become violent is not an ethical thing to do. I'm not saying the person is not deserving of treatment, but that the treatment disregards the women who are forced to be participants.
(I've said my piece, I'll drop it now)
posted by melissasaurus at 5:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, that kind of exposure therapy sounds like a horrible, awful idea.
By the way, I'm not kidding when I say it took me 24 hours to comment on here because I thought people would not take me seriously enough if I said "I deal with social anxiety." I don't want to sound callous when I say it's great to hear what other people are saying, because there's a lot of pain being expressed and I don't want to sound like I'm endorsing that. But it's at least nice to have a space where this kind of anxiety is totally relevant and OK to think/talk about. I've seen some pretty dismissive comments elsewhere on the site that made me feel like I could never talk about this kind of stuff. It's embarrassing to admit, but reading this thread makes me feel a little more comfortable engaging with the site.
posted by teponaztli at 5:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
By the way, I'm not kidding when I say it took me 24 hours to comment on here because I thought people would not take me seriously enough if I said "I deal with social anxiety." I don't want to sound callous when I say it's great to hear what other people are saying, because there's a lot of pain being expressed and I don't want to sound like I'm endorsing that. But it's at least nice to have a space where this kind of anxiety is totally relevant and OK to think/talk about. I've seen some pretty dismissive comments elsewhere on the site that made me feel like I could never talk about this kind of stuff. It's embarrassing to admit, but reading this thread makes me feel a little more comfortable engaging with the site.
posted by teponaztli at 5:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think far more men should have far higher anxiety about how their presence affects the women around them.
Sorry, but this is very poor word choice for this thread and there's really no excuse for it. I get your point, and agree with most of what you're saying, especially about how bad and dumb the proposed treatment at the end of the article is. Hopefully you wouldn't go into a thread about depression and wish MORE depression on anyone, so please don't do it with anxiety either.
posted by dogwalker at 5:47 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Sorry, but this is very poor word choice for this thread and there's really no excuse for it. I get your point, and agree with most of what you're saying, especially about how bad and dumb the proposed treatment at the end of the article is. Hopefully you wouldn't go into a thread about depression and wish MORE depression on anyone, so please don't do it with anxiety either.
posted by dogwalker at 5:47 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
The goal isn't to increase the chance of dating on that occasion, it's to reduce the fear. Which yes, means behaving obnoxiously,
Exactly, the patients are given a script (guaranteeing obnoxious behavior), so I'm pretty sure they could still get a 100% rejection rate in a speed dating scenario, even if it wasn't staged.
Unless life is actually a romantic comedy, then there is another anxious dater who vowed to say yes to everyone, no matter how weird/obnoxious.
posted by ghost phoneme at 5:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Exactly, the patients are given a script (guaranteeing obnoxious behavior), so I'm pretty sure they could still get a 100% rejection rate in a speed dating scenario, even if it wasn't staged.
Unless life is actually a romantic comedy, then there is another anxious dater who vowed to say yes to everyone, no matter how weird/obnoxious.
posted by ghost phoneme at 5:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree it was a poor word choice and I apologize. The word I was looking for was concern; anxiety was not the right word to use, particularly in this context.
posted by melissasaurus at 5:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 5:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
So, there's this trope I see on social media that the mentally ill don't have the blinders that "normal" people have to insulate themselves against how horrific the human life can be. I think there's a kernel of truth in that woo, although I'm obviously biased. I am acutely aware of how my presence affects other people, because I am acutely aware of how the presence of others affects me. I empathize with aware socially awkward men. There is so much potential for understanding there. So much. And here is a great example of how the patriarchy hurts men. Because they have that potential for understanding, but society says they're weak. So you have the PUA community, which turns that potential into something dangerous. That's what this particular exposure therapy is doing. It's putting the well-being of men above the well-being of women. This is absolutely something that could be explored in a mixed-gender group setting, with willing participants. But involving unwitting bystanders, it harms everyone.
posted by Ruki at 6:10 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 6:10 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this back-and-forth actually illustrates a common misunderstanding about anxiety, which is that it is somehow necessary because it acts as a brake on our behavior. But, in my experience, anxiety can just as easily make it more difficult to live up to your own standards and to stand up for things you think are correct, even knowing that you might be judged harshly for them.
posted by en forme de poire at 6:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 6:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
this back and forth is largely by people who experience anxiety as a mental illness and i don't think it's a misunderstanding of what anxiety is as much as it's looking at it from different experiences.
posted by nadawi at 6:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sorry, that wasn't very clear on my part. By "this back-and-forth" I was specifically referring to the comment that certain people should feel more anxiety because it would prevent them from doing something bad and the associated responses, not the entire thread. (Also, I'm speaking as someone who experiences and has been treated for anxiety.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:11 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by en forme de poire at 7:11 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought the doctor's women-bothering treatment suggestion was pretty gross, but I also think it's a shame that seems to be dominating the entire discussion here.
The odd thing for me is that I could probably do the thing where you ask everyone in the room out on a date, if all I had to do was ask them and not actually go on the date. I am fine with scripted, superficial social encounters. I mean, I do political door-knocking, which is something that friends who don't have social anxiety tell me they would have a hard time doing. I can give my little spiel, and I don't care that people sometimes get mad at me for bothering them and call me horrible names, because that's just part of the deal. Where I have trouble is in having normal conversations with my fellow volunteers. That makes me super anxious, because those encounters aren't scripted, and I care what they think of me. When I go out with friends, except my two or three very closest friends, I spend hours afterwards ruminating over everything I've said, trying to figure out what was wrong and insulting and embarrassing. I don't usually get social anxiety at work (and a lot of my work involves talking with people, sometimes about emotionally difficult things), but anything that combines work and socializing is a huge anxiety minefield for me. I dread the Christmas party so much. And it's really hard to explain this to people, because I think in some ways I actually seem pretty socially confident and adept, and the ways in which I'm a mess are so context-dependent and specific.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
The odd thing for me is that I could probably do the thing where you ask everyone in the room out on a date, if all I had to do was ask them and not actually go on the date. I am fine with scripted, superficial social encounters. I mean, I do political door-knocking, which is something that friends who don't have social anxiety tell me they would have a hard time doing. I can give my little spiel, and I don't care that people sometimes get mad at me for bothering them and call me horrible names, because that's just part of the deal. Where I have trouble is in having normal conversations with my fellow volunteers. That makes me super anxious, because those encounters aren't scripted, and I care what they think of me. When I go out with friends, except my two or three very closest friends, I spend hours afterwards ruminating over everything I've said, trying to figure out what was wrong and insulting and embarrassing. I don't usually get social anxiety at work (and a lot of my work involves talking with people, sometimes about emotionally difficult things), but anything that combines work and socializing is a huge anxiety minefield for me. I dread the Christmas party so much. And it's really hard to explain this to people, because I think in some ways I actually seem pretty socially confident and adept, and the ways in which I'm a mess are so context-dependent and specific.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
To back up a second, I completely agree that the advice to approach strange women is sexist. The point that I was trying to make, which I think I didn't succeed in communicating, is that anxiety is not guaranteed to be congruent with or even correlated with your values. My understanding is that this is why some treatments for anxiety involve practicing a suspension of belief about anxious thoughts. That's why I think melissasaurus was right to clarify that what she really meant was concern, not anxiety, and why I think that exchange is illustrative of why it's important not to conflate, on the one hand, avoiding something because you feel anxious about it, and on the other hand, deciding that you don't want to do something out of empathy or a sense of justice.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:50 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 7:50 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Arbitrary and Capricious - I don't think it's that odd to be okay with scripted and have issues with nonscripted. I'm the same way, and for me it comes down a lot to not trusting my own internal social acceptability barometer. I trust other people's, though, so a script someone else has vetted should have the expected results (or even if they don't, it's out of my control)
posted by dinty_moore at 8:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not saying the described approach is ideal. It does rely on the participation of randoms. (Though I suspect 90-95% of random people approached could manage 95-98% of the scripted exposures without permanent or even temporary injury. I think this is something that could be measured, and it would behoove Dr. Hofmann [or some of his female co-researchers if appropriate] to do some follow-up questions with people drawn into the exposures to determine whether or not that's the case, if they haven't already done so, given the great concern expressed. This is Boston University in 2015, though, I assume this was at least considered by someone along the line). A consensual approach would be better, although I think it would lack the verisimilitude of the naturalistic environment, which I imagine must add X% effectiveness in puncturing the disabling belief (also something that can be determined).
The problem is really that straight men and women have patriarchy between them, and getting together and getting along together in its shadow is a massive pain in the ass.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:10 PM on October 23, 2015
The problem is really that straight men and women have patriarchy between them, and getting together and getting along together in its shadow is a massive pain in the ass.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:10 PM on October 23, 2015
I absolutely agree that it's a giant pain in the ass. Which is exactly why therapists should not be forcing their patients into a situation that could potentially make both parties uncomfortable. There is no greater good here. Randomly approaching a woman for a date, with no other context, is most likely going to lead to rejection. This reinforces, in my opinion, the negative thinking of anxiety. It's simultaneously sexist, because the woman is an unwilling participant, and harmful to the male patient. Exposure therapy, in other contexts, can be beneficial. But this particular approach is not good.
posted by Ruki at 8:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 8:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I agree it was a poor word choice and I apologize. The word I was looking for was concern; anxiety was not the right word to use, particularly in this context."
Speaking honestly, as a person with sometimes-crippling social anxiety (both in romantic and non-romantic context), I feel that I have too much concern for other people, and oftentimes the only way to function successfully in my environment (college) is to completely ignore those concerns and bulldoze through, no matter what. You'd feel like a psychopath often though, because it's like taking a blinder on to other people's perceived needs and hopes (gambles) for the best outcome.
Also since two years ago I observed that jerks have more success (arbitrarily defined as social worthiness among one's peers), and when I tried to emulate them in various environment, well -- it more often worked. I've led student teams and those functioned most effectively were when I became more of a jerk. People do seem to respect you more. It's like there's this evolutionary benefit (but not really) of having a certain kind of aggression in one's makeup of social maneuvers.
"I am fine with scripted, superficial social encounters."
Same for me, it's much easier to speak in a random seminar or conferences or in any professional setting than to navigate the confusing social landscape of college befriending.
posted by tirta-yana at 9:00 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Speaking honestly, as a person with sometimes-crippling social anxiety (both in romantic and non-romantic context), I feel that I have too much concern for other people, and oftentimes the only way to function successfully in my environment (college) is to completely ignore those concerns and bulldoze through, no matter what. You'd feel like a psychopath often though, because it's like taking a blinder on to other people's perceived needs and hopes (gambles) for the best outcome.
Also since two years ago I observed that jerks have more success (arbitrarily defined as social worthiness among one's peers), and when I tried to emulate them in various environment, well -- it more often worked. I've led student teams and those functioned most effectively were when I became more of a jerk. People do seem to respect you more. It's like there's this evolutionary benefit (but not really) of having a certain kind of aggression in one's makeup of social maneuvers.
"I am fine with scripted, superficial social encounters."
Same for me, it's much easier to speak in a random seminar or conferences or in any professional setting than to navigate the confusing social landscape of college befriending.
posted by tirta-yana at 9:00 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ruki, I would differ from that only in that I think that paradoxically, avoiding rejection can make anxiety about rejection much worse. Deliberately experiencing rejection, in contrast, can be therapeutic, because part of dealing with anxiety can be experiencing the pain of the "worst case scenario" and being forced to realize that you are able to tolerate it. But I absolutely agree that the way to achieve that is not for men to do something that would make women feel concerned for their welfare (since of course, it is unfortunately a reasonable expectation that a man who hit on women in inappropriate settings could become either verbally or physically aggressive), or to normalize/contribute to the level of everyday harassment that women are expected to put up with. There are plenty of ways to experience rejection that don't involve sexist/patriarchal acts.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 9:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
en forme de (I cannot get this tablet to stop autocorrecting the last part, I'm sorry), I absolutely agree with you. I think there is a lot of fundamental agreement here in theory, throughout the thread. It's the practice that's problematic. I think the majority of this thread has been two different camps presenting the same opinion from different perspectives. Aversion therapy is not fundamentally bad. Rejection is an unavoidable part of life. However, male anxiety is not the random woman in the coffee shop's burden to bear. There are consensual outlets for this. Speed dating is a great suggestion. Assuming a heteronormative position, this is the perfect outlet. The women involved are clearly consenting to this type of interaction, and it provides a safe outlet for the anxious male to experience rejection. Wonderfully, the speed dating scenario works for any gender, and I hope that we live in a time where this can be expanded beyond the heteronormative experience. There is an enormous difference between experiencing everyday rejection in a controlled environment between consenting adults and experiencing rejection from an unwilling participant in a social experiment. And there's the rub. There are more appropriate avenues for aversion therapy than what was presented in the post. The socially anxious person, regardless of gender, would be better off experiencing rejection in a controlled environment, rather than confronting a random person who could have a very unexpected reaction.
posted by Ruki at 9:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 9:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
The unexpected reaction could go a number of ways. It could trigger anxiety or PTSD, or it could trigger violence. My whole point is that this non-consensual experiment is not safe, and I include both parties here.
posted by Ruki at 9:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 9:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
But what poffin boffin actually said was "Why must women always, always be objects, tools to be used and discarded by men who are looking to heal themselves."
You can see how this can be read as "men are the worst, especially men who are trying to find a relationship," right?
No, actually, I can't. As a woman who goes out in public on a daily basis, no, I don't see how pushing back against advice to ask out multiple/random/every woman one meets in a public setting is saying "men are the worst".
And as a woman with (diagnosed! DSM-coded and all that!) severe mental illness including anxiety, it pisses me off to be by implication included as one of the vaguely hand-waved "ask women out, even with the expectation that most or all of them will reject you" targets. (Apologies to my mentally healthy sisters; I don't mean to throw you under the bus here.) Fuck that. If the only axis of connection is that the person accosting me is male and I'm female (and he's presuming I'm het and single), despite my strongly culturally-conditioned "don't be rude, don't make waves" instincts I may well tell him to piss off.
"Impose on women you don't know to try to solve your problems" is not the answer and will never and SHOULD never be the answer.
posted by Lexica at 10:12 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
You can see how this can be read as "men are the worst, especially men who are trying to find a relationship," right?
No, actually, I can't. As a woman who goes out in public on a daily basis, no, I don't see how pushing back against advice to ask out multiple/random/every woman one meets in a public setting is saying "men are the worst".
And as a woman with (diagnosed! DSM-coded and all that!) severe mental illness including anxiety, it pisses me off to be by implication included as one of the vaguely hand-waved "ask women out, even with the expectation that most or all of them will reject you" targets. (Apologies to my mentally healthy sisters; I don't mean to throw you under the bus here.) Fuck that. If the only axis of connection is that the person accosting me is male and I'm female (and he's presuming I'm het and single), despite my strongly culturally-conditioned "don't be rude, don't make waves" instincts I may well tell him to piss off.
"Impose on women you don't know to try to solve your problems" is not the answer and will never and SHOULD never be the answer.
posted by Lexica at 10:12 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thanks Ruki, I get what you're saying now and I agree. Sorry to have been going around in circles!
posted by en forme de poire at 10:16 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by en forme de poire at 10:16 PM on October 23, 2015
I'm reading comments here that imply that my very existence in a public place is asking to be approached.
What I meant by that was that we all have to accept a certain amount of risk that's necessarily involved in being in a public place, where there are people who are different from us, whether that's because they've got a different mental health status or gender or class or religion or ethnicity or whatever. We all, also, are always public, visible objects for others, and convey meanings just by existing, some we intend and others we carry unwillingly; some of which are understood, many that aren't. Being a person living among other people is complicated and messy (which is why it creates anxiety for some of us), and frictions and surprises are unavoidable (unless you take pains to avoid them).
I'm saying, shit happens, and on the spectrum of messy, complicated interactions, being asked to read the back of a book, or whether a towed car belongs to Carl Smith, is probably pretty low on the scale of boundary violations and very unlikely to cause temporary or lasting damage to most people. I agree that being asked out in a strange way is a notch above being asked to read a book cover, more than a notch for some. It mimics microaggressions that occur as part of a patriarchal society. It also (slightly) overlaps with heteronormative expectations about "normal" inter-gender behaviour, enough to be relevant and useful to the person benefitting from the exercise, in the constrained way explained (via rejection etc). And normal inter-gender relationships are just messy. (Even in actual, consensual, heteronormative relationships between people who try to live according to feminist principles.)
IIRC from one class or other, when weighing benefits/harms for stuff like this, one of the questions to ask is, does this thing we're doing cause harm that is greater than could be expected in the course of ordinary life? And for this it looks like "not really", to me. As en forme de poire pointed out, it does reinforce the status quo for women, which I don't think is how it ought to be, but I also don't think this exercise is exactly criminal. (If I were used as a proxy for that exercise, my response might depend on the day - might be a drop in the bucket, easily forgotten, something to laugh at - I'm lucky that this is within my range of possible responses, I realize - maybe I'd also have had enough that day and want to punch him out, I dunno.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:15 AM on October 24, 2015
What I meant by that was that we all have to accept a certain amount of risk that's necessarily involved in being in a public place, where there are people who are different from us, whether that's because they've got a different mental health status or gender or class or religion or ethnicity or whatever. We all, also, are always public, visible objects for others, and convey meanings just by existing, some we intend and others we carry unwillingly; some of which are understood, many that aren't. Being a person living among other people is complicated and messy (which is why it creates anxiety for some of us), and frictions and surprises are unavoidable (unless you take pains to avoid them).
I'm saying, shit happens, and on the spectrum of messy, complicated interactions, being asked to read the back of a book, or whether a towed car belongs to Carl Smith, is probably pretty low on the scale of boundary violations and very unlikely to cause temporary or lasting damage to most people. I agree that being asked out in a strange way is a notch above being asked to read a book cover, more than a notch for some. It mimics microaggressions that occur as part of a patriarchal society. It also (slightly) overlaps with heteronormative expectations about "normal" inter-gender behaviour, enough to be relevant and useful to the person benefitting from the exercise, in the constrained way explained (via rejection etc). And normal inter-gender relationships are just messy. (Even in actual, consensual, heteronormative relationships between people who try to live according to feminist principles.)
IIRC from one class or other, when weighing benefits/harms for stuff like this, one of the questions to ask is, does this thing we're doing cause harm that is greater than could be expected in the course of ordinary life? And for this it looks like "not really", to me. As en forme de poire pointed out, it does reinforce the status quo for women, which I don't think is how it ought to be, but I also don't think this exercise is exactly criminal. (If I were used as a proxy for that exercise, my response might depend on the day - might be a drop in the bucket, easily forgotten, something to laugh at - I'm lucky that this is within my range of possible responses, I realize - maybe I'd also have had enough that day and want to punch him out, I dunno.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:15 AM on October 24, 2015
I don't know if I missed a comment on this above, but I'm really bothered that approaching women without their consent is something designed and endorsed by this kind of an authority on treatment. I mean, besides the obvious, what is really troublesome to me is what this might say about authority and autonomy in treatment. If I were to refuse to do this because I was ethically against it, could I trust that my doctor would understand, or would it look like an excuse to get out of doing something uncomfortable - which is, after all, the entire point?
One of the agonizing things about mental illness is how often you end up gaslighting yourself. Everything can be broken down in such a way as to totally rob you of any sense of agency over your own emotions or actions. I can easily see myself being asked to do something like this and feeling like I was selling myself short for coming up with some reason why I shouldn't. "Come on, don't back down now!"
I'm lucky in that I'm not asked to do stuff like this in my own treatment. But this interview is kind of infuriating. As someone who could hypothetically be in his care, I'd like to know - would I deserve the right to say that this is a horrible idea for me, or would he, as my doctor, just gently remind me that it's normal to be scared, or something?
posted by teponaztli at 12:24 AM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
One of the agonizing things about mental illness is how often you end up gaslighting yourself. Everything can be broken down in such a way as to totally rob you of any sense of agency over your own emotions or actions. I can easily see myself being asked to do something like this and feeling like I was selling myself short for coming up with some reason why I shouldn't. "Come on, don't back down now!"
I'm lucky in that I'm not asked to do stuff like this in my own treatment. But this interview is kind of infuriating. As someone who could hypothetically be in his care, I'd like to know - would I deserve the right to say that this is a horrible idea for me, or would he, as my doctor, just gently remind me that it's normal to be scared, or something?
posted by teponaztli at 12:24 AM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
jerks might get ahead more (and i can see this being true - i know a multimillionaire who is a complete misogynistic bullying asshole and "ahead" in just about every way is the only way to describe his social and economic positions) but the emotional cost to me of becoming that kind of person is too high.
posted by nadawi at 7:02 AM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:02 AM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
whether or not we have to accept a certain amount of risk does not make it acceptable for someone to add to that risk.
I don't see this as a black-and-white question, I think this depends on the nature of the risky activity, the answers to other cost/benefit questions, and the projected risk.
Nor do you really have any idea how much you're bothering someone.
Fair point, but it's not impossible to get a sense of how true this might be for the general population (how much they'd be bothered).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:51 AM on October 24, 2015
I don't see this as a black-and-white question, I think this depends on the nature of the risky activity, the answers to other cost/benefit questions, and the projected risk.
Nor do you really have any idea how much you're bothering someone.
Fair point, but it's not impossible to get a sense of how true this might be for the general population (how much they'd be bothered).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:51 AM on October 24, 2015
I apologize for having taken up so much space. The last thing I have to say about this (and my motivations for participating in this thread) is that I am not coming from a disinterested, uninvested place. Typical treatment for SAD doesn't tend to have great long-term efficacy rates. Exposure therapy tends to be more successful, and it doesn't happen often enough. If this treatment significantly relieves the suffering of people who need it, I really feel this benefit shouldn't be discounted if the risk to the group most likely to encounter it is reasonable (as I believe it to be, but again, this is an empirical question, in my view).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:17 AM on October 24, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:17 AM on October 24, 2015
Here's what I don't understand.
A man approaches me, and I tense up about how how this might play out. He asks me out, I feel gross that I have to be the one to reject him, despite broadcasting it with every fiber of my body language. It is not a pleasant conversation.
He happily accepts my rejection and then disappears?
What? That's not how that ever plays out for me. They might either push the subject or suddenly blame me for being a bitch. That's why it's such a painful interaction. That's why I always worry it could escalate to violence, though I've been lucky and never had an encounter turn physical.
That one interaction would tip the scales from 100% Always Awful Outcome to Overwhelmingly Bad Outcome. My universe of expected results has literally been changed for the better.
It might not be enough to change my mind about it. But if random men reliably accepted social cues, even a half minute too late, that's a hell of a lot better world than I currently exist in.
posted by politikitty at 12:40 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
A man approaches me, and I tense up about how how this might play out. He asks me out, I feel gross that I have to be the one to reject him, despite broadcasting it with every fiber of my body language. It is not a pleasant conversation.
He happily accepts my rejection and then disappears?
What? That's not how that ever plays out for me. They might either push the subject or suddenly blame me for being a bitch. That's why it's such a painful interaction. That's why I always worry it could escalate to violence, though I've been lucky and never had an encounter turn physical.
That one interaction would tip the scales from 100% Always Awful Outcome to Overwhelmingly Bad Outcome. My universe of expected results has literally been changed for the better.
It might not be enough to change my mind about it. But if random men reliably accepted social cues, even a half minute too late, that's a hell of a lot better world than I currently exist in.
posted by politikitty at 12:40 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was wondering if anyone imagined that "restaurant" meant a place where hitting on strangers was part of the scene? Thats what I thought he meant as part of heavily scripted. Past that, would that make any difference to the people who find this aversion therapy example ethically prohibited?
posted by Pembquist at 7:57 PM on October 24, 2015
posted by Pembquist at 7:57 PM on October 24, 2015
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Isn't there some kind of ethical breach here, where part of the therapy involves making other uninvolved people uncomfortable? I can see the reasoning behind this kind of extreme exposure exercise, but I'm sure there are ways to set it up that don't require harassing strangers.
posted by zixyer at 11:36 AM on October 22, 2015 [52 favorites]