'The Empire Strikes Back' and So Does George Lucas
October 22, 2015 3:23 PM Subscribe
An interview from 1980 where Rolling Stone talks with George Lucas about his views on movie making, the difficulty working with studios, and the possible and tenuous future of the franchise. (context: previously)
A few key questions that become interesting in retrospect:
Why didn't you direct The Empire Strikes Back?
I hate directing. It's like fighting a fifteen-round heavyweight bout with a new opponent every day. You go to work knowing just how you want a scene to be, but by the end of the day, you're usually depressed because you didn't do a good enough job. . . .
Did you know then that the merchandising and sequel rights were going to be so valuable?
Well, when I was writing I had had visions of R2-D2 mugs and little windup robots, but I thought that would be the end of it. I went for the merchandising because it was one of the few things left we hadn't discussed. I took everything that hadn't been discussed. All I knew was that I wanted to control the sequel rights because I wanted to make the other two movies.
But if you want to make movies, don't you have to [work with the studios]?
That's why I'm trying to build the ranch.
The ranch?
Yeah, I bought 2000 acres in Lucas Valley, California [no relation] – to build a kind of creative-filmmakers' retreat. The idea for this came out of film school. It was a great environment; a lot of people all very interested in film, exchanging ideas, watching movies, helping each other out. I wondered why we couldn't have a professional environment like that...
How much is this going to cost?
No way to project at this point given the way the world is going. I figure it will take between five and six years and cost in excess of $20 million.
We know you're rich . . .
That's way beyond my personal resources.
A few key questions that become interesting in retrospect:
Why didn't you direct The Empire Strikes Back?
I hate directing. It's like fighting a fifteen-round heavyweight bout with a new opponent every day. You go to work knowing just how you want a scene to be, but by the end of the day, you're usually depressed because you didn't do a good enough job. . . .
Did you know then that the merchandising and sequel rights were going to be so valuable?
Well, when I was writing I had had visions of R2-D2 mugs and little windup robots, but I thought that would be the end of it. I went for the merchandising because it was one of the few things left we hadn't discussed. I took everything that hadn't been discussed. All I knew was that I wanted to control the sequel rights because I wanted to make the other two movies.
But if you want to make movies, don't you have to [work with the studios]?
That's why I'm trying to build the ranch.
The ranch?
Yeah, I bought 2000 acres in Lucas Valley, California [no relation] – to build a kind of creative-filmmakers' retreat. The idea for this came out of film school. It was a great environment; a lot of people all very interested in film, exchanging ideas, watching movies, helping each other out. I wondered why we couldn't have a professional environment like that...
How much is this going to cost?
No way to project at this point given the way the world is going. I figure it will take between five and six years and cost in excess of $20 million.
We know you're rich . . .
That's way beyond my personal resources.
A couple of other questions I find interesting in retrospect:
Oh, dear. Let's get back to The Empire Strikes Back for a moment. In the movie, Ben says Luke is the last hope and Yoda says no, there is another.
Yes. [Smiling] There is another, and has been for a long time. You have to remember, we're starting in the middle of this whole story. There are six hours' worth of events before Star Wars, and in those six hours, the "other" becomes apparent, and after the third film, the "other" becomes apparent quite a bit.
What will happen to Luke?
I can't say. In the next film, everything gets resolved one way or the other. Luke won the first battle in the first film. Vadar won the second battle in the second film, and in the third film, only one of them walks away. We have to go back to the very beginning to find out the real problem.
posted by nubs at 3:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, dear. Let's get back to The Empire Strikes Back for a moment. In the movie, Ben says Luke is the last hope and Yoda says no, there is another.
Yes. [Smiling] There is another, and has been for a long time. You have to remember, we're starting in the middle of this whole story. There are six hours' worth of events before Star Wars, and in those six hours, the "other" becomes apparent, and after the third film, the "other" becomes apparent quite a bit.
What will happen to Luke?
I can't say. In the next film, everything gets resolved one way or the other. Luke won the first battle in the first film. Vadar won the second battle in the second film, and in the third film, only one of them walks away. We have to go back to the very beginning to find out the real problem.
posted by nubs at 3:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
He fought for freedom. He settled for power.
posted by anazgnos at 3:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by anazgnos at 3:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If I had stayed in the car, I would have been dead. When you go through something like that, it puts a little more perspective on things, like maybe you're here for a reason. [Smiling] Maybe I was here to do Star Wars and that's it. I'm living on borrowed time.
Well we know the Time Lords can fuck up, maybe the accident was supposed to be after he made Star Wars?
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:55 PM on October 22, 2015
Well we know the Time Lords can fuck up, maybe the accident was supposed to be after he made Star Wars?
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:55 PM on October 22, 2015
We have to go back to the very beginning prequels to find out the real problem.
Fixed.
posted by Fizz at 3:58 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fixed.
posted by Fizz at 3:58 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Somewhere I have a vague memory of Mad doing the extended history of the Star Wars franchise, I think right after Empire, where everybody's uncle fought in the Clone Wars, Luke met his father and it was The Force sitting in a dirty armchair, etc. I mostly remember Luke sitting in an X-Wing with The Book of the Plot in his lap. I think they might have been more right than they anticipated...
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Did he have all six movies plotted out when he made A New Hope? (And if so,why did I-III take so long to get made? (and why couldn't it have been longer?))
posted by gottabefunky at 4:27 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by gottabefunky at 4:27 PM on October 22, 2015
What If the New Star Wars Sucks, Too? He points out that the Star Wars franchise has a 33% success rate. I'm forced to agree.
posted by Caduceus at 5:13 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Caduceus at 5:13 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Did he have all six movies plotted out when he made A New Hope? (And if so,why did I-III take so long to get made? (and why couldn't it have been longer?))
I'm of the opinion that he had vague ideas one step ahead, sketches of things that led up to the main trilogy, and remote hunches on what might come after. But he played it off like he had a whole thing in mind, because he was overconfident about his ability to skillfully flesh out those vague ideas.
posted by chimaera at 5:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm of the opinion that he had vague ideas one step ahead, sketches of things that led up to the main trilogy, and remote hunches on what might come after. But he played it off like he had a whole thing in mind, because he was overconfident about his ability to skillfully flesh out those vague ideas.
posted by chimaera at 5:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's no shortage of sites that pour over the rough drafts of Lucas' scripts. There's no doubt that a lot of the ideas we see in the final product had gone through a hundred visions and revisions, before the taking of AT-AT.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just finished reading "The Making of..." books for the first three movies. While I knew the stories evolved over time, I was surprised how much the final movies changed from his original outlines. In particular Star Wars, the final movie is nothing like the original story. I was also surprised how much of the seminal lines were written by others Lucas hired to flesh out the scripts.
I'll give Lucas grief to the end of days for his changes to the original movies and the quality of the prequels. Midichlorians, *sigh*. But I am impressed at his vision in founding the Skywalker Ranch right after Star Wars. I don't think it became what he originally intended, but he has had an amazing influence behind the camera when it came improving the technology of filmmaking.
posted by beowulf573 at 5:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'll give Lucas grief to the end of days for his changes to the original movies and the quality of the prequels. Midichlorians, *sigh*. But I am impressed at his vision in founding the Skywalker Ranch right after Star Wars. I don't think it became what he originally intended, but he has had an amazing influence behind the camera when it came improving the technology of filmmaking.
posted by beowulf573 at 5:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know that "what went wrong with Star Wars" is a never-ending science fantasy circle jerk, but its all I have, so here we go.
In my opinion, one of the major challenges Lucas faces is that he either doesn't get the concept of character development or has decided it isn't really an important part of a story. But, obviously, it is a hugely important part of film and this is why Star Wars and The Empire Strike Back are effective films.
In Star Wars, there are two major character arcs. Luke goes through a typical hero's journey transformation, but it should also be noted that the climax of the film is also when we learn that Han Solo has gone through a major character shift - the mercenary has found a cause that he willingly fight for. Luke, at the end of Star Wars, would be incapable of facing Vader one on one and this is vitally important for the second film
In Empire Strikes back, Luke is trying very hard to make a choice between his impatience (expressed as "wanting to help his friends," though it could just as easily be read as arrogantly believing he's ready when he's not) and really committing to the Jedi path. People criticize Mark Hammill's acting from time to time, but when he's given the chance to play the pivotal dramatic moment in the entire franchise, he nails it - watch his eyes in the sequence around 2:35 right before he falls here. You can see an actor making a huge character choice - going from the absolute doubt and horror to deciding he'd rather risk death and being at peace with that decision. Its a fine bit of acting - something we don't see a whole lot of from anyone in future movies because they're not given this sort of great character choice. (I wish he fell in silence, but what can you do?)
Vader, however, states an amazing motivation in that speech - he suggests they work together to destroy the emperor. What what? He's not a loyal servant after all?
I think the intention of the climactic showdown between Luke, Vader and the Emperor was intended to both give Luke a chance to show that he's grown since Empire (after beating down Vader, he refuses to give in to the dark side) and to give Vader a similar light vs dark choice. But Vader is in a mask and we can't see his eyes, so we miss the potential drama of that moment. Plus, Lucas so wants to redeem Vader that he weakens the character kind of unforgivably in the last third of the film.
Not that he needs my advice, but Vader should never have turned into a main character here. This trilogy was Luke's story. If, for example, the Vader/Emperor/Skywalker fight had gone down in such a way that it was actually Vader's trap for the Emperor and he dispatches his master before his final showdown with Luke, it really sets up Luke's final character choice - will he turn to the dark or the light, the defining choice of his entire life - in a much more powerful way. Vader now not only is his fallen father, but potentially the ruler of the empire. He's now the biggest big bad and for Luke to truly become the master he's set out to become, he needs to make a huge choice now that ties back in to the choice he made in the swamp (save his friends/do the right thing).
I don't have a proposal about how that should have played out, but the whole "insert movies 1-3 right in the middle of Empire in order to explain Vader's motivation" thing works because Lucas tries to change the story from Luke's to Vader's at the 11th Hour. Vader has done some genuinely awful shit. He doesn't really deserve this sentimental "I'm your father again for the first time" shit. That's purely wish fulfillment by a writer whose wanted to redeem his own shitty father.
(Han Solo is given the choice to be self sacrificing for Leia three times - he comes back to destroy the death star, he faces his freezing without a struggle, and he offers to walk away from her so she can be with Luke. He doesn't develop a whole lot after Empire - though the true believer look he has in eyes when talking about how the Force is true in the trailer amps up my fan boy excitement to 10)
Regarding episodes 1 through 3, if the trilogy is united by Vader, he robbed the character of the dramatic choices he gave Luke ("Trust The Force," "Join me and we'll rule the galaxy as father and son" and "hey you beat down your dad - kill him and join me"). Vader doesn't have choices, just shitty shit that happens to him and he's too dim to notice some of ways he's being played. Obi Wan has a chance to make some interesting choices, but Lucas sort of doesn't allow that to be a big deal either. Part of why the films seem to lifeless is because the scripts don't give the actors any important choices to play - I mean, the defining moment of Vader's life should be choosing to murder all those kids, but its like he was ordered to take out the trash. He's already too far gone to care.
But, again, wish fulfillment. Dad was an awful man, but he really loved mom and he would have loved us if he'd known us. He didn't choose to do those things. Society and Palpatine made him that way.
Anyhow, I think I need to write one of these rants every three years or so, but if nothing else happens in the new film, I will be at least somewhat satisfied if I see a character make a lasting choice that genuinely changes them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:32 PM on October 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
In my opinion, one of the major challenges Lucas faces is that he either doesn't get the concept of character development or has decided it isn't really an important part of a story. But, obviously, it is a hugely important part of film and this is why Star Wars and The Empire Strike Back are effective films.
In Star Wars, there are two major character arcs. Luke goes through a typical hero's journey transformation, but it should also be noted that the climax of the film is also when we learn that Han Solo has gone through a major character shift - the mercenary has found a cause that he willingly fight for. Luke, at the end of Star Wars, would be incapable of facing Vader one on one and this is vitally important for the second film
In Empire Strikes back, Luke is trying very hard to make a choice between his impatience (expressed as "wanting to help his friends," though it could just as easily be read as arrogantly believing he's ready when he's not) and really committing to the Jedi path. People criticize Mark Hammill's acting from time to time, but when he's given the chance to play the pivotal dramatic moment in the entire franchise, he nails it - watch his eyes in the sequence around 2:35 right before he falls here. You can see an actor making a huge character choice - going from the absolute doubt and horror to deciding he'd rather risk death and being at peace with that decision. Its a fine bit of acting - something we don't see a whole lot of from anyone in future movies because they're not given this sort of great character choice. (I wish he fell in silence, but what can you do?)
Vader, however, states an amazing motivation in that speech - he suggests they work together to destroy the emperor. What what? He's not a loyal servant after all?
I think the intention of the climactic showdown between Luke, Vader and the Emperor was intended to both give Luke a chance to show that he's grown since Empire (after beating down Vader, he refuses to give in to the dark side) and to give Vader a similar light vs dark choice. But Vader is in a mask and we can't see his eyes, so we miss the potential drama of that moment. Plus, Lucas so wants to redeem Vader that he weakens the character kind of unforgivably in the last third of the film.
Not that he needs my advice, but Vader should never have turned into a main character here. This trilogy was Luke's story. If, for example, the Vader/Emperor/Skywalker fight had gone down in such a way that it was actually Vader's trap for the Emperor and he dispatches his master before his final showdown with Luke, it really sets up Luke's final character choice - will he turn to the dark or the light, the defining choice of his entire life - in a much more powerful way. Vader now not only is his fallen father, but potentially the ruler of the empire. He's now the biggest big bad and for Luke to truly become the master he's set out to become, he needs to make a huge choice now that ties back in to the choice he made in the swamp (save his friends/do the right thing).
I don't have a proposal about how that should have played out, but the whole "insert movies 1-3 right in the middle of Empire in order to explain Vader's motivation" thing works because Lucas tries to change the story from Luke's to Vader's at the 11th Hour. Vader has done some genuinely awful shit. He doesn't really deserve this sentimental "I'm your father again for the first time" shit. That's purely wish fulfillment by a writer whose wanted to redeem his own shitty father.
(Han Solo is given the choice to be self sacrificing for Leia three times - he comes back to destroy the death star, he faces his freezing without a struggle, and he offers to walk away from her so she can be with Luke. He doesn't develop a whole lot after Empire - though the true believer look he has in eyes when talking about how the Force is true in the trailer amps up my fan boy excitement to 10)
Regarding episodes 1 through 3, if the trilogy is united by Vader, he robbed the character of the dramatic choices he gave Luke ("Trust The Force," "Join me and we'll rule the galaxy as father and son" and "hey you beat down your dad - kill him and join me"). Vader doesn't have choices, just shitty shit that happens to him and he's too dim to notice some of ways he's being played. Obi Wan has a chance to make some interesting choices, but Lucas sort of doesn't allow that to be a big deal either. Part of why the films seem to lifeless is because the scripts don't give the actors any important choices to play - I mean, the defining moment of Vader's life should be choosing to murder all those kids, but its like he was ordered to take out the trash. He's already too far gone to care.
But, again, wish fulfillment. Dad was an awful man, but he really loved mom and he would have loved us if he'd known us. He didn't choose to do those things. Society and Palpatine made him that way.
Anyhow, I think I need to write one of these rants every three years or so, but if nothing else happens in the new film, I will be at least somewhat satisfied if I see a character make a lasting choice that genuinely changes them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:32 PM on October 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
"The Complex and Terrifying Reality of Star Wars Fandom", written in 2005.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
He doesn't develop a whole lot after Empire - though the true believer look he has in eyes when talking about how the Force is true in the trailer amps up my fan boy excitement to 10
Eh, I thought it was a little uncharacteristic. I've always liked how Han was completely orthogonal to that "hokey religion". Consider the trench run: Vader and Luke are locked in a battle over who's more in tune with the Force and the Millenium Falcon literally comes in unexpectedly from 90 degrees overhead and blasts Vader.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Eh, I thought it was a little uncharacteristic. I've always liked how Han was completely orthogonal to that "hokey religion". Consider the trench run: Vader and Luke are locked in a battle over who's more in tune with the Force and the Millenium Falcon literally comes in unexpectedly from 90 degrees overhead and blasts Vader.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Not that he needs my advice, but Vader should never have turned into a main character here.
Indeed. Go back to ANH, and Vader is just one of the Empire's bullyboys. He has authority, but he's under Tarkin's command, and the last member of a hokey and forgotten religion, there to be Luke's enemy as Luke becomes a Jedi Knight. But he became popular - and why not, Vader was a great villain - and all of a sudden the story grew from being about Luke's journey to also being about Anakin's journey. And major problems emerge.
posted by nubs at 6:40 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Indeed. Go back to ANH, and Vader is just one of the Empire's bullyboys. He has authority, but he's under Tarkin's command, and the last member of a hokey and forgotten religion, there to be Luke's enemy as Luke becomes a Jedi Knight. But he became popular - and why not, Vader was a great villain - and all of a sudden the story grew from being about Luke's journey to also being about Anakin's journey. And major problems emerge.
posted by nubs at 6:40 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
George Lucas made a lot more sense after I learned how important Marcia Griffin, his first wife, was as an editor and writer.
They got a divorce in 1983 and a quick look at his filmography shows how important her contribution was, with a bright line where the magic went away.
The Secret History of Star Wars has an essay which is worth reading:
posted by adamsc at 6:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
They got a divorce in 1983 and a quick look at his filmography shows how important her contribution was, with a bright line where the magic went away.
The Secret History of Star Wars has an essay which is worth reading:
Perhaps it is the painful memories of the final unhealthy years of their marriage, during which Marcia finally left Lucas for another man and got a large cash settlement, that has prompted him to essentially never speak of her again. Indeed, it is a rare day when her name is uttered by him, even as "my wife" and other impersonal labels. Even in the 70s and 80s she was defined not on her own merits but by her relationship to George--she was not just Marcia, she was "Marcia, the wife of George Lucas", forever overshadowed. Yet nonetheless, Lucas and every fan of his films owe her a debt of gratitude. She was an instrumental part in the shaping of his scripts, and the primary force behind their final form in the editorial stage, where she cut the pictures herself. But more than that, she had a prolific and successful career of her own as an editor, and was a key figure in the New Hollywood movement of the 1970s; a secondary figure, perhaps, yet unlike other secondary figures such as Walter Murch and John Milius, her existence has been almost entirely forgotten.…
Dale Pollock writes, "only Marcia is brave enough to take Lucas on in a head-to-head dispute and occasionally emerge victorious."(Archive.org copy since the original domain is currently a Japanese dating spam site)
posted by adamsc at 6:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Note that Marcia Lucas also edited Taxi Driver, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and New York, New York for Scorsese and was assistant editor on The Candidate for Michael Ritchie. That's a pretty damn impressive resume, it's a shame that she left Hollywood after leaving him.
posted by octothorpe at 7:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also, she got an Oscar for Star Wars and he didn't.
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
"The Complex and Terrifying Reality of Star Wars Fandom", written in 2005.
From the article: "We believe George Lucas’ ideal death time was 2:07am, 14 November, 1990."
Hold on a minute, we do what now? Is this an allusion to something in particular?
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:27 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the article: "We believe George Lucas’ ideal death time was 2:07am, 14 November, 1990."
Hold on a minute, we do what now? Is this an allusion to something in particular?
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:27 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I always saw Vader as the ensorcelled Black Knight. I feel like it's the only way any of his redemption works. All the subtext is there, especially in Jedi: "I must obey my master" which is interesting compared to his offer to Luke in Empire.
I'll lay it out:
Vader has been been controlled and warped for 20 years by the Emperor.
Star Wars- Vader is Tarkin's lapdog. He's clearly not calling the shots. I suggest his conditioning from the Emperor is strong at this time. Possibly it's periodically refreshed.
Empire- He's been without a minder for awhile and his conditioning is starting to slip. He's slaughtering the Imperial high Command at his whim and plotting to kill the Emperor with his son.
Jedi- He is completely subservient to the Emperor here. When Luke comes to him there is no more talk of overthrowing his master. "It is too late for me." Watching his son being murdered in front of him is what finally gives him the strength to throw off the Emperor's will and destroy his oppressor.
Without the mind control/warping angle Anakin is unrepentantly selfish and evil and there is nothing to salvage from his character.
posted by JARED!!! at 7:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'll lay it out:
Vader has been been controlled and warped for 20 years by the Emperor.
Star Wars- Vader is Tarkin's lapdog. He's clearly not calling the shots. I suggest his conditioning from the Emperor is strong at this time. Possibly it's periodically refreshed.
Empire- He's been without a minder for awhile and his conditioning is starting to slip. He's slaughtering the Imperial high Command at his whim and plotting to kill the Emperor with his son.
Jedi- He is completely subservient to the Emperor here. When Luke comes to him there is no more talk of overthrowing his master. "It is too late for me." Watching his son being murdered in front of him is what finally gives him the strength to throw off the Emperor's will and destroy his oppressor.
Without the mind control/warping angle Anakin is unrepentantly selfish and evil and there is nothing to salvage from his character.
posted by JARED!!! at 7:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I remember in one of the books, don't ask me which one, it explains how Palpatine punished Vader severely after he "sensed" Vader's betrayal at their next meeting. He broke his back if I remember correctly.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2015
Look, all I know is this is a guy that still says Laser Sword because that was his original name for them and he doesn't like that he was overruled in favor of Lightsaber. He pronounces Han Solo to rhyme with Man like nobody in the movies (except Lando). He genuinely believes the best government is a dictatorship, as long as the dictator is benevolent. He lucked into being responsible for one of the greatest cultural touchstones of all time and has spent every moment since doing his darnedest to ruin everything about it. I wish Disney could have bought him out of it 30 years ago.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Come to think of it, I pronounce it Rhymes-With-Man Solo. I even know they pronounce it the other way in the movies, I think I just thought they were being snooty.
posted by rhizome at 8:56 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by rhizome at 8:56 PM on October 22, 2015
So, I am not too familiar with the Star Wars universe outside of the movies, but I've always wondered this: does Leia have the ability to use the Force like Luke?
posted by littlesq at 9:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by littlesq at 9:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
RonButNotStupid: "Eh, I thought it was a little uncharacteristic. I've always liked how Han was completely orthogonal to that "hokey religion". "
I liked it. In the first movie, Han has no respect for the force, for fighting for freedom, for anything other than money. By the end of the movie, he comes to see that there is more than just money.
In the second and third movies, he has gone beyond just "saving his friend from being shot" during the Death Star trench run to actively being part of the rebellion. During these years he personally experiences the kooky religion in action. I mean, in the first movie he says "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side". In the second movie he shoots Vader multiple times, and sees that Vader doesn't even budge, casually deflecting his shots, and then causes his blaster to fly out of his hand (and, man, rewatching that scene, Ford does a great "WTF?!" face).
So it actually is in line with his character arc -- very characteristic -- to have gone from making fun of this religion he's heard scarce rumors of to having seen it all in action first-hand and praising it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:22 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I liked it. In the first movie, Han has no respect for the force, for fighting for freedom, for anything other than money. By the end of the movie, he comes to see that there is more than just money.
In the second and third movies, he has gone beyond just "saving his friend from being shot" during the Death Star trench run to actively being part of the rebellion. During these years he personally experiences the kooky religion in action. I mean, in the first movie he says "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side". In the second movie he shoots Vader multiple times, and sees that Vader doesn't even budge, casually deflecting his shots, and then causes his blaster to fly out of his hand (and, man, rewatching that scene, Ford does a great "WTF?!" face).
So it actually is in line with his character arc -- very characteristic -- to have gone from making fun of this religion he's heard scarce rumors of to having seen it all in action first-hand and praising it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:22 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
He pronounces Han Solo to rhyme with Man like nobody in the movies (except Lando).
To be fair, it's better than calling him a chicken in German.
I don't get the energy poured into hating Lucas, for the same reason I don't get the more or less equivalent loathing vomited onto Shyamalan. George made some stuff I enjoyed, some I didn't, some I at least found hilariously bad. And along the way he did some pretty great things for film generally.
This was a genuinely interesting interview, and thank you for posting it.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be fair, it's better than calling him a chicken in German.
I don't get the energy poured into hating Lucas, for the same reason I don't get the more or less equivalent loathing vomited onto Shyamalan. George made some stuff I enjoyed, some I didn't, some I at least found hilariously bad. And along the way he did some pretty great things for film generally.
This was a genuinely interesting interview, and thank you for posting it.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Joey Michaels it is interesting that you talk about character development. One person who really knew about character development, and someone who hasn't been given enough public credit for her work on the first movies, is Academy Award wining film editor Marcia Lucas.
Unfortunately, for the rest of the film franchise, they got divorced, and her contributions ceased.
posted by eye of newt at 9:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, for the rest of the film franchise, they got divorced, and her contributions ceased.
posted by eye of newt at 9:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
AdamCSnider: "I don't get the energy poured into hating Lucas, for the same reason I don't get the more or less equivalent loathing vomited onto Shyamalan."
While I don't froth about Lucas, I get it somewhat. Star Wars is cherished, and many years passed between the original trilogy and the prequels, which allowed it to gain a more personal hold. Shyamalan, yeah, I don't get. People liked Sixth Sense, but nobody cherished it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:50 PM on October 22, 2015
While I don't froth about Lucas, I get it somewhat. Star Wars is cherished, and many years passed between the original trilogy and the prequels, which allowed it to gain a more personal hold. Shyamalan, yeah, I don't get. People liked Sixth Sense, but nobody cherished it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:50 PM on October 22, 2015
Without the mind control/warping angle Anakin is unrepentantly selfish and evil and there is nothing to salvage from his character.
You're absolutely right of course but a character without any agency can't make choices and is absolved of all responsibility for their actions. This lowers the stakes for that character and makes them much less interesting.
This makes Vader a singularly inappropriate main character for a short story, much less a trilogy. Obi Wan, Amidala and Palpatine would all have been more interesting focal characters for the prequel (I vote for Obi Wan). It also reinforces my belief that Lucas flubbed the climactic conflict in RotJ.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:52 PM on October 22, 2015
You're absolutely right of course but a character without any agency can't make choices and is absolved of all responsibility for their actions. This lowers the stakes for that character and makes them much less interesting.
This makes Vader a singularly inappropriate main character for a short story, much less a trilogy. Obi Wan, Amidala and Palpatine would all have been more interesting focal characters for the prequel (I vote for Obi Wan). It also reinforces my belief that Lucas flubbed the climactic conflict in RotJ.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:52 PM on October 22, 2015
Also yes, hail Marcia Lucas.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:57 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:57 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
It'd be really cool if it were possible to read the interview on any mobile device, but apparently it isn't. You're just given a splash screen with a big "GET IT IN GOOGLE PLAY" button, and it seems rather difficult to do that without giving in and somehow doing something androidy or whatever.
Anyway: in addition to Marcia Lucas, I feel like the author of the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back should be recognized. Her name was Leigh Brackett, and she's the amazing woman who also helped adapt The Big Sleep for the screen - yes, that one - and spent four decades writing science fiction and hard-boiled detective novels and working on many successful screenplays. In her long career writing, however, she never wrote a science fiction screenplay (even though she wrote countless dozens of awesome science fiction stories and novels) until she wrote The Empire Strikes Back. She died of cancer just after turning in the first draft to George Lucas, unfortunately, and it was turned over to Lawrence Kasdan (who of course did a masterful job) but I always feel like she really got the ball rolling, and I feel as though her very pragmatic, politically savvy, sometimes rather dark space epics had an influence on the tone of the final product.
She's a great writer of tight dialogue, and certainly not well known enough. Women were the best and most popular writers in Hollywood at the beginning, for the first decade or so - some people like Erich Von Stroheim used woman writers almost exclusively - but by Leigh Brackett's time, they were rare enough for her to have been a real maverick. They say that, after Howard Hawks (who was about to start work on The Big Sleep) read her first novel, he told his secretary to "get this Brackett guy on the phone, Faulkner could use his help." And nobody can deny that Rio Bravo was one of the finest movies ever made.
posted by koeselitz at 10:37 PM on October 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Anyway: in addition to Marcia Lucas, I feel like the author of the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back should be recognized. Her name was Leigh Brackett, and she's the amazing woman who also helped adapt The Big Sleep for the screen - yes, that one - and spent four decades writing science fiction and hard-boiled detective novels and working on many successful screenplays. In her long career writing, however, she never wrote a science fiction screenplay (even though she wrote countless dozens of awesome science fiction stories and novels) until she wrote The Empire Strikes Back. She died of cancer just after turning in the first draft to George Lucas, unfortunately, and it was turned over to Lawrence Kasdan (who of course did a masterful job) but I always feel like she really got the ball rolling, and I feel as though her very pragmatic, politically savvy, sometimes rather dark space epics had an influence on the tone of the final product.
She's a great writer of tight dialogue, and certainly not well known enough. Women were the best and most popular writers in Hollywood at the beginning, for the first decade or so - some people like Erich Von Stroheim used woman writers almost exclusively - but by Leigh Brackett's time, they were rare enough for her to have been a real maverick. They say that, after Howard Hawks (who was about to start work on The Big Sleep) read her first novel, he told his secretary to "get this Brackett guy on the phone, Faulkner could use his help." And nobody can deny that Rio Bravo was one of the finest movies ever made.
posted by koeselitz at 10:37 PM on October 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
I feel like the author of the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back should be recognized. Her name was Leigh Brackett
Aaaand this is why I love Metafilter. Never even knew this person existed. Now I have reading material for months.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Aaaand this is why I love Metafilter. Never even knew this person existed. Now I have reading material for months.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Others have said it before: Lucas knew he wanted to capture a quality of the serials played before features of his youth (an experience/appreciation shared with Spielberg I've read) and realized the potential of sequels before they became the standard they are today. Lucas' franchise is largely responsible for them. But that doesn't mean he had a fully realized story arc. His revisions on the original work show it. But he had inspirations, and an artist's sensibility-- Vader? Dutch for father and the cognate of invade? Preceded by a title so similar to dark? I can't find record of anyone calling that out before its reveal. The hungry, devoted, and youthful Lucas was sublime. Saber training with a remote, blind? Droids conceived so perfectly they blend into an ensemble? It requires a time jump to 1977, the amorality and malaise of post-Vietnam years finally quick-thawing to provide a context of what the hell was going on...
And the scales fell from my eyes when Episode 6 just blew up another Death Star. I was 18. The ride was over. But all the negative criticism is often ridiculous. If you didn't like this or that episode, go ask a 10-year old what they thought.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 11:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
And the scales fell from my eyes when Episode 6 just blew up another Death Star. I was 18. The ride was over. But all the negative criticism is often ridiculous. If you didn't like this or that episode, go ask a 10-year old what they thought.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 11:44 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Apparently the initial phone call between Lucas and Brackett went something like:
Lucas: Have you ever written for the movies?
Brackett: Yes, I have. Rio Bravo, El Dorado, The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye...
[pause]
Lucas: Are you that Leigh Brackett?
Brackett: Yes. Isn't that why you called me in?
Lucas: No, I called you in because you were a pulp science fiction writer!
posted by The Tensor at 12:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
Lucas: Have you ever written for the movies?
Brackett: Yes, I have. Rio Bravo, El Dorado, The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye...
[pause]
Lucas: Are you that Leigh Brackett?
Brackett: Yes. Isn't that why you called me in?
Lucas: No, I called you in because you were a pulp science fiction writer!
posted by The Tensor at 12:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
lazycomputerkids: " If you didn't like this or that episode, go ask a 10-year old what they thought."
No, if you don't like this or that episode, go ask someone who was in their 30s when they first saw it. It's not just that us Gen-Xers liked it the original trilogy, it's that our parents liked it. My dad recalls that he went by himself to see it in a theater and was blown away. I've read a bunch of Star Wars MeFi threads lately because I found out FanFare was covering SW, so I don't remember in which thread it was, but someone talked about how their dad walked out of the theater and said "We're gonna watch that again next week", and then they ended out seeing it multiple times that summer, which never happened for them.
What points to the original trilogy being good was not that little kids liked it. Little kids like fucking anything. I mean, I avidly watched Beastmaster and G.I. Joe as a kid. It's that the original trilogy (especially the first movie) was enjoyed by kids and adults. The fact that you need to ask a 10-year old what they thought to find someone who liked the movie is a mark against the movies, not for them.
posted by Bugbread at 12:54 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
No, if you don't like this or that episode, go ask someone who was in their 30s when they first saw it. It's not just that us Gen-Xers liked it the original trilogy, it's that our parents liked it. My dad recalls that he went by himself to see it in a theater and was blown away. I've read a bunch of Star Wars MeFi threads lately because I found out FanFare was covering SW, so I don't remember in which thread it was, but someone talked about how their dad walked out of the theater and said "We're gonna watch that again next week", and then they ended out seeing it multiple times that summer, which never happened for them.
What points to the original trilogy being good was not that little kids liked it. Little kids like fucking anything. I mean, I avidly watched Beastmaster and G.I. Joe as a kid. It's that the original trilogy (especially the first movie) was enjoyed by kids and adults. The fact that you need to ask a 10-year old what they thought to find someone who liked the movie is a mark against the movies, not for them.
posted by Bugbread at 12:54 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
But he had inspirations, and an artist's sensibility-- Vader? Dutch for father and the cognate of invade? Preceded by a title so similar to dark? I can't find record of anyone calling that out before its reveal.
Bizarrely, that was accidental! The idea that Vader is Luke's father doesn't show up until partway through the writing process of The Empire Strikes Back. When Obi-wan calls him "Darth" when talking to him during their duel on the Death Star, he does so because that's the guy's first name.
Oh, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister either, until writing Return of the Jedi.
posted by timdiggerm at 2:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bizarrely, that was accidental! The idea that Vader is Luke's father doesn't show up until partway through the writing process of The Empire Strikes Back. When Obi-wan calls him "Darth" when talking to him during their duel on the Death Star, he does so because that's the guy's first name.
Oh, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister either, until writing Return of the Jedi.
posted by timdiggerm at 2:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
What points to the original trilogy being good was not that little kids liked it. Little kids like fucking anything.
Yeah, I shouldn't have tacked on that conclusion. It's really a take on all the negative response to pod races (and worse) in 1. But that the franchise isn't made for children I'm reluctant to accept. Parents approved and enjoyed sharing a theater experience children at a time when Disney was about the only staid alternative.
On Preview: I'd like a cite on the "accident" of Vader. There's a documentary in which a very young Lucas talks about father figures. But, yeah, Leia and Luke StarKiller kissing in 5 was just one other reason to dismiss the consistency of 6. The whole notion of coherent trilogies is bullshit. 4 and 5 were stupendous, and everything since has been momentum more than craft or artistry from Lucas.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 3:13 AM on October 23, 2015
Yeah, I shouldn't have tacked on that conclusion. It's really a take on all the negative response to pod races (and worse) in 1. But that the franchise isn't made for children I'm reluctant to accept. Parents approved and enjoyed sharing a theater experience children at a time when Disney was about the only staid alternative.
On Preview: I'd like a cite on the "accident" of Vader. There's a documentary in which a very young Lucas talks about father figures. But, yeah, Leia and Luke StarKiller kissing in 5 was just one other reason to dismiss the consistency of 6. The whole notion of coherent trilogies is bullshit. 4 and 5 were stupendous, and everything since has been momentum more than craft or artistry from Lucas.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 3:13 AM on October 23, 2015
lazycomputerkids: "Parents approved and enjoyed sharing a theater experience children at a time when Disney was about the only staid alternative. "
I would say that was true for ESB and ROTJ, but the very first Star Wars wasn't so much "enjoy watching a kids movie with your kids" but "kids enjoy watching an adult movie with their dad". I mean, take my dad, who went and saw it on his own, me being only 2 or so. I just don't think ANH was considered a kids movie when it came out. However, despite ESB being darker and more adult, I never really hear people my parent's age talking about ESB. Perhaps it's that after ANH came out and was unexpectedly popular, a shitload of toys were sold, and Star Wars became cemented in the popular consciousness as kids fare, whereas that wasn't the case when ANH came out. Or perhaps it's that ANH was light years beyond other movies in terms of special effects, so it was enough to wow people, while when ESB came out the bar had been raised, so it no longer attracted adults as much.
If the second is a big factor, I think it fits a lot with Avatar (yo, I'm not saying Star Wars and Avatar are of equivalent quality or anything!). My wife and I saw Avatar when it came out, and really enjoyed the experience. It was the first big, high quality 3D movie, as far as I can remember. My friends also saw it and enjoyed it. But if Avatar II comes out, there's no way I'm going to see it in a theater. I doubt I would even rent it. The technological advances of Avatar were enough to pull people to the theater, and enough to make it a really enjoyable experience for many (knowing MeFi, this is where everyone comes in to tell me they thought it was total butt, but I'm talking about the flesh-and-blood people I've talked to in real life), and yet I have no particular interest in seeing Avatar II. So maybe the relationship between ANH and ESB was like that for my parent's generation.
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would say that was true for ESB and ROTJ, but the very first Star Wars wasn't so much "enjoy watching a kids movie with your kids" but "kids enjoy watching an adult movie with their dad". I mean, take my dad, who went and saw it on his own, me being only 2 or so. I just don't think ANH was considered a kids movie when it came out. However, despite ESB being darker and more adult, I never really hear people my parent's age talking about ESB. Perhaps it's that after ANH came out and was unexpectedly popular, a shitload of toys were sold, and Star Wars became cemented in the popular consciousness as kids fare, whereas that wasn't the case when ANH came out. Or perhaps it's that ANH was light years beyond other movies in terms of special effects, so it was enough to wow people, while when ESB came out the bar had been raised, so it no longer attracted adults as much.
If the second is a big factor, I think it fits a lot with Avatar (yo, I'm not saying Star Wars and Avatar are of equivalent quality or anything!). My wife and I saw Avatar when it came out, and really enjoyed the experience. It was the first big, high quality 3D movie, as far as I can remember. My friends also saw it and enjoyed it. But if Avatar II comes out, there's no way I'm going to see it in a theater. I doubt I would even rent it. The technological advances of Avatar were enough to pull people to the theater, and enough to make it a really enjoyable experience for many (knowing MeFi, this is where everyone comes in to tell me they thought it was total butt, but I'm talking about the flesh-and-blood people I've talked to in real life), and yet I have no particular interest in seeing Avatar II. So maybe the relationship between ANH and ESB was like that for my parent's generation.
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you're interested in Leigh Bracket's original draft you could do worse than to check out the Empire Strikes back episodes of Star Wars Minute . It's an excellent podcast where they discuss the star wars movies one minute at a time.
So far they've done the original trilogy, and are currently on a break (although they just did a one off discussion of caravan of courage) before (reluctantly) doing the prequels.
A lot of the ESB episodes feature mentions of the original drafts.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
So far they've done the original trilogy, and are currently on a break (although they just did a one off discussion of caravan of courage) before (reluctantly) doing the prequels.
A lot of the ESB episodes feature mentions of the original drafts.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Tensor:
Brackett: Yes. Isn't that why you called me in?
Lucas: No, I called you in because you were a pulp science fiction writer!"
There was no IMDB in 1977.
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Brackett: Yes. Isn't that why you called me in?
Lucas: No, I called you in because you were a pulp science fiction writer!"
There was no IMDB in 1977.
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
But that the franchise isn't made for children I'm reluctant to accept.
You might be able to argue it for the original trilogy, but there is no way I will believe that the prequels are intended for children. The first movie's primary driving factor is very poorly explained political maneuvering and parliamentary procedure. The second movie is a creepy love story that ends with the supposed protagonist admitting to murdering women and children off-screen. The third ups the ante by having that supposed protagonist murder dozens of children more-or-less on-screen (complete with us seeing the aftermath).
posted by tocts at 5:03 AM on October 23, 2015
You might be able to argue it for the original trilogy, but there is no way I will believe that the prequels are intended for children. The first movie's primary driving factor is very poorly explained political maneuvering and parliamentary procedure. The second movie is a creepy love story that ends with the supposed protagonist admitting to murdering women and children off-screen. The third ups the ante by having that supposed protagonist murder dozens of children more-or-less on-screen (complete with us seeing the aftermath).
posted by tocts at 5:03 AM on October 23, 2015
Did he have all six movies plotted out when he made A New Hope?
I'm more inclined to think that he wrote the prequels over a weekend and but kept telling people they were done for years.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm more inclined to think that he wrote the prequels over a weekend and but kept telling people they were done for years.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Regarding the OT and its audience: I was 6 or 7 the when I saw ESB in the its first theatrical run. I was alternately terrified or bored. According to Mom, I wanted to go home halfway through. She was so into it that she wanted to stay to see how it ended.
ESB really was a case of Lucas stepping back because of burnout or distraction and other people stepping up and taking his ideas to a whole level. When he saw it, he was threatened by it, tried to recut the movie. I've heard one account that his edit so awful that others played it off like a joke, like "ha ha, good one, George, but seriously..." In the end, Lucas ended up pushing out Gary Kurtz and hiring people he could push around for RotJ.
Once secure in office he declared himself emperor, shutting himelf away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. –prologue to the ANH novelization
posted by entropicamericana at 6:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
ESB really was a case of Lucas stepping back because of burnout or distraction and other people stepping up and taking his ideas to a whole level. When he saw it, he was threatened by it, tried to recut the movie. I've heard one account that his edit so awful that others played it off like a joke, like "ha ha, good one, George, but seriously..." In the end, Lucas ended up pushing out Gary Kurtz and hiring people he could push around for RotJ.
Once secure in office he declared himself emperor, shutting himelf away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. –prologue to the ANH novelization
posted by entropicamericana at 6:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Perhaps it's that after ANH came out and was unexpectedly popular, a shitload of toys were sold, and Star Wars became cemented in the popular consciousness as kids fare, whereas that wasn't the case when ANH came out. Or perhaps it's that ANH
Or stick-in-the-mud parents like mine, who consider ALL science fiction to be kids' fare.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:55 AM on October 23, 2015
Or stick-in-the-mud parents like mine, who consider ALL science fiction to be kids' fare.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:55 AM on October 23, 2015
I posted this article about Kurtz a while back. The relevant quotes about the development of RotJ and why he quit:
“We had an outline and George changed everything in it,” Kurtz said. “Instead of bittersweet and poignant he wanted a euphoric ending with everybody happy. The original idea was that they would recover [the kidnapped] Han Solo in the early part of the story and that he would then die in the middle part of the film in a raid on an Imperial base. George then decided he didn’t want any of the principals killed. By that time there were really big toy sales and that was a reason.”posted by octothorpe at 7:09 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
The discussed ending of the film that Kurtz favored presented the rebel forces in tatters, Leia grappling with her new duties as queen and Luke walking off alone “like Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti westerns,” as Kurtz put it.
Kurtz said that ending would have been a more emotionally nuanced finale to an epic adventure than the forest celebration of the Ewoks that essentially ended the trilogy with a teddy bear luau.
He was especially disdainful of the Lucas idea of a second Death Star, which he felt would be too derivative of the 1977 film. “So we agreed that I should probably leave.”
there is no way I will believe that the prequels are intended for children. The first movie's primary driving factor is very poorly explained political maneuvering and parliamentary procedure. The second movie is a creepy love story that ends with the supposed protagonist admitting to murdering women and children off-screen. The third ups the ante by having that supposed protagonist murder dozens of children more-or-less on-screen (complete with us seeing the aftermath).
Even if Lucas intended them for whatever fucked up idea he had about who children are and what they like, that doesn't mean they can't totally suck donkey balls at being for children.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:11 AM on October 23, 2015
Even if Lucas intended them for whatever fucked up idea he had about who children are and what they like, that doesn't mean they can't totally suck donkey balls at being for children.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:11 AM on October 23, 2015
They're totally for kids! Check out the crawl for The Phantom Menace :
posted by kirkaracha at 7:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.Taxation! Trade disputes! Blockades! Congressional debates! Kids love that stuff!
Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.
While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict....
posted by kirkaracha at 7:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
One thing I found interesting is that he refers to Episode V as Revenge of the Jedi , which was reputedly the going title for awhile.
Star Wars is cherished, and many years passed between the original trilogy and the prequels, which allowed it to gain a more personal hold.
Ready to feel old? As many years have passed between Episode I (1999) and now (2015) as between ROJ (1983) and Episode I (1999).
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:36 AM on October 23, 2015
Star Wars is cherished, and many years passed between the original trilogy and the prequels, which allowed it to gain a more personal hold.
Ready to feel old? As many years have passed between Episode I (1999) and now (2015) as between ROJ (1983) and Episode I (1999).
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:36 AM on October 23, 2015
From the whole Jar-Jar and Yippee pod racer stuff, all I conclude is that Lucas really did mean for Phantom Menace to be for kids, but he was just really bad at it.
posted by Bugbread at 7:38 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 7:38 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Ready to feel old? As many years have passed between Episode I (1999) and now (2015) as between ROJ (1983) and Episode I (1999).
me irl
posted by entropicamericana at 7:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
me irl
posted by entropicamericana at 7:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
And in other Star Wars news, a Lenin statue in Odessa was converted into a monument to Darth Vader.
posted by Kabanos at 8:09 AM on October 23, 2015
posted by Kabanos at 8:09 AM on October 23, 2015
[Kurtz] was especially disdainful of the Lucas idea of a second Death Star, which he felt would be too derivative of the 1977 film. “So we agreed that I should probably leave.”
I wonder if he's seen the official Episode 7 poster yet.
"Is that a Death Star I see before me?"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder if he's seen the official Episode 7 poster yet.
"Is that a Death Star I see before me?"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
However, despite ESB being darker and more adult, I never really hear people my parent's age talking about ESB. Perhaps it's that after ANH came out and was unexpectedly popular, a shitload of toys were sold, and Star Wars became cemented in the popular consciousness as kids fare...
I also think there's a tendency for people from that generation to kind of blend all the movies together in their heads under the blanket label of "Star Wars". My mother, for example, definitely watched all three movies in the theater with us, but I'm certain if I were to quiz her about specific plot points or characters from a particular installment, she would have no clue as to which of the films they pertained to, other than "one of the Star Wars movies".
It's similar to the way I react to current superhero franchises. It amazes me that people can keep them all separate and distinct in their brains. (Just with X-Men alone, there have been seven goddamn movies in 14 years!) In my mind, they all just get mashed up together into one big Technicolor slurry.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:49 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also think there's a tendency for people from that generation to kind of blend all the movies together in their heads under the blanket label of "Star Wars". My mother, for example, definitely watched all three movies in the theater with us, but I'm certain if I were to quiz her about specific plot points or characters from a particular installment, she would have no clue as to which of the films they pertained to, other than "one of the Star Wars movies".
It's similar to the way I react to current superhero franchises. It amazes me that people can keep them all separate and distinct in their brains. (Just with X-Men alone, there have been seven goddamn movies in 14 years!) In my mind, they all just get mashed up together into one big Technicolor slurry.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:49 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
lazycomputerkids: “On Preview: I'd like a cite on the 'accident' of Vader. There's a documentary in which a very young Lucas talks about father figures.”
Ha. Well – I haven't seen that documentary, but this is a matter of some "debate," although the "debate" is mostly "George Lucas lying, and everyone else telling the truth." It's actually one of the clearest instances where Lucas really is just obviously lying. Darth Vader was certainly not Luke's father when ANH was written, although Lucas loves to say that he "knew all along" what was going to happen. (Citation on that claim: "When I wrote the original Star Wars screenplay, I knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father; the audience did not. I always felt that this revelation, when and if I got the chance to make it, would be shocking, but I never expected the level of emotional attachment that audiences had developed for Luke." - Lucas' introduction to the 25th Anniversary novelization of the OT.)
Many people who worked with Lucas at the time have stated in interviews that Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father until the second draft of ESB. None of the treatments we've gained access to, none of the early or late drafts of ANH, mention anything about Darth being Luke's father. (Yes, Darth. That is his first name in the OT, as others have mentioned here.) The closest we can come to documentary proof on this is Leigh Brackett's original first-draft script of ESB (then "Star Wars II") which was based directly on George Lucas' storyboards and outline. In the "Star Wars II" script, Luke is in training on Dagobah when he actually meets the ghost of his dead father – which makes sense, given that (as we were told in ANH) his father was killed by the still-living Darth Vader.
So: it's pretty clear that, all through the writing and filming of A New Hope, and on into the writing of Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader was absolutely not Luke's father.
Also, for what it's worth, the rumor has always been that having Darth be Luke's father, and Leia be Luke's sister, was actually Marcia's idea. Which would make sense: one more crucial point she wasn't given credit for.
posted by koeselitz at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ha. Well – I haven't seen that documentary, but this is a matter of some "debate," although the "debate" is mostly "George Lucas lying, and everyone else telling the truth." It's actually one of the clearest instances where Lucas really is just obviously lying. Darth Vader was certainly not Luke's father when ANH was written, although Lucas loves to say that he "knew all along" what was going to happen. (Citation on that claim: "When I wrote the original Star Wars screenplay, I knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father; the audience did not. I always felt that this revelation, when and if I got the chance to make it, would be shocking, but I never expected the level of emotional attachment that audiences had developed for Luke." - Lucas' introduction to the 25th Anniversary novelization of the OT.)
Many people who worked with Lucas at the time have stated in interviews that Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father until the second draft of ESB. None of the treatments we've gained access to, none of the early or late drafts of ANH, mention anything about Darth being Luke's father. (Yes, Darth. That is his first name in the OT, as others have mentioned here.) The closest we can come to documentary proof on this is Leigh Brackett's original first-draft script of ESB (then "Star Wars II") which was based directly on George Lucas' storyboards and outline. In the "Star Wars II" script, Luke is in training on Dagobah when he actually meets the ghost of his dead father – which makes sense, given that (as we were told in ANH) his father was killed by the still-living Darth Vader.
So: it's pretty clear that, all through the writing and filming of A New Hope, and on into the writing of Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader was absolutely not Luke's father.
Also, for what it's worth, the rumor has always been that having Darth be Luke's father, and Leia be Luke's sister, was actually Marcia's idea. Which would make sense: one more crucial point she wasn't given credit for.
posted by koeselitz at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Vadar
I was guessing this was a spelling mistake more commonly made in 1980.
Then I did a google search and was a little bit disappointed.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2015
I was guessing this was a spelling mistake more commonly made in 1980.
Then I did a google search and was a little bit disappointed.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2015
I also think there's a tendency for people from that generation to kind of blend all the movies together in their heads under the blanket label of "Star Wars"
I was thinking a bit about this last night, when I showed my kids the latest trailer. I don't recall my parents really being into Star Wars - I went to see ANH (at age 6) with my older brother and his friends, and it stands out in my mind because (a) it was the first time I went to the theatre without my parents and (b) holy shit, it was like nothing we had seen to that point - Disney was doing things like the Rescuers and Herbie. My parents later took us to see it a second time, and I remember them taking us to see ESB, but by ROTJ, it was just my brother and I. I think the key was that some parents probably did love the films as much as their kids, and other parents (like mine) found them films they could find some enjoyment in, even if they didn't spark the passion they did for us.
Anyways, I showed my kids the trailer and they both think it's neat and cool and all, but they aren't excited about this the way I am. And I was trying to think of why, and I think it's background radiation:
-Star Wars, when it came on the scene, was legitimately new. It had passion and exuberance (and I think it is the passion of the original films that made them, because you could respond to them in a way that allowed you to overlook their problems) and a style of film-making that was breaking new ground. Now, Star Wars is part of the background radiation - the influences of it are all around us, it surrounds us and has had a huge impact on so much of our entertainment.
-Star Wars came out, was in the theatre for a few months, and then it was gone. It was three years to ESB, with no VHS, no internet, no TV rebroadcast - nothing. I remember seeing something like a trailer for ESB on the Price is Right (?) when going to the opening screening of it was a prize and being incredibly excited. Now, Star Wars is instantly accessible - DVDs, streaming, TV marathons...again, it has become part of the background radiation of their lives.
So are they excited to go and see it in December? Yeah, but not they way I am and not the way I was as a kid with ESB and ROTJ. The environment has changed. The concept of a new Star Wars movie doesn't mean as much because Star Wars has always been here, and this is just another Star Wars thing to add to the pile.
The trailers, I think, are aimed at us - the kids who grew up on the original trilogy and remember the awe and excitement of a new Star Wars film - in order to remind us that we loved those movies and as a promise that we will feel that way again. Maybe that promise won't be kept, as it wasn't with the prequels. I mentally re-titled this film last night in my head as Star Wars VII: The Force Awakens: A New Hope (?) II. Because I love Star Wars, but it is often the idea of Star Wars I love more than the reality of it, and I want to have both. Again.
I've kind of meandered here, and I'm not really sure what my point was when I started anymore, but basically I think what we all responded to back then, in greater or lesser degrees, was the energy in the story. That energy to fire up our imaginations and touch on things that resonate with us on a deep, personal level. Where that energy came from is an interesting question - it seems to be some strange mix of Lucas, Marcia, and a bunch of other people - but we all remember it. That's what we're looking for again, and it wasn't present in the prequels, and it's harder to achieve now. Again, it's that background radiation effect - we're used to huge spectacle, so we need more than just that, and we're a more demanding audience now in terms of story and character.
posted by nubs at 11:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was thinking a bit about this last night, when I showed my kids the latest trailer. I don't recall my parents really being into Star Wars - I went to see ANH (at age 6) with my older brother and his friends, and it stands out in my mind because (a) it was the first time I went to the theatre without my parents and (b) holy shit, it was like nothing we had seen to that point - Disney was doing things like the Rescuers and Herbie. My parents later took us to see it a second time, and I remember them taking us to see ESB, but by ROTJ, it was just my brother and I. I think the key was that some parents probably did love the films as much as their kids, and other parents (like mine) found them films they could find some enjoyment in, even if they didn't spark the passion they did for us.
Anyways, I showed my kids the trailer and they both think it's neat and cool and all, but they aren't excited about this the way I am. And I was trying to think of why, and I think it's background radiation:
-Star Wars, when it came on the scene, was legitimately new. It had passion and exuberance (and I think it is the passion of the original films that made them, because you could respond to them in a way that allowed you to overlook their problems) and a style of film-making that was breaking new ground. Now, Star Wars is part of the background radiation - the influences of it are all around us, it surrounds us and has had a huge impact on so much of our entertainment.
-Star Wars came out, was in the theatre for a few months, and then it was gone. It was three years to ESB, with no VHS, no internet, no TV rebroadcast - nothing. I remember seeing something like a trailer for ESB on the Price is Right (?) when going to the opening screening of it was a prize and being incredibly excited. Now, Star Wars is instantly accessible - DVDs, streaming, TV marathons...again, it has become part of the background radiation of their lives.
So are they excited to go and see it in December? Yeah, but not they way I am and not the way I was as a kid with ESB and ROTJ. The environment has changed. The concept of a new Star Wars movie doesn't mean as much because Star Wars has always been here, and this is just another Star Wars thing to add to the pile.
The trailers, I think, are aimed at us - the kids who grew up on the original trilogy and remember the awe and excitement of a new Star Wars film - in order to remind us that we loved those movies and as a promise that we will feel that way again. Maybe that promise won't be kept, as it wasn't with the prequels. I mentally re-titled this film last night in my head as Star Wars VII: The Force Awakens: A New Hope (?) II. Because I love Star Wars, but it is often the idea of Star Wars I love more than the reality of it, and I want to have both. Again.
I've kind of meandered here, and I'm not really sure what my point was when I started anymore, but basically I think what we all responded to back then, in greater or lesser degrees, was the energy in the story. That energy to fire up our imaginations and touch on things that resonate with us on a deep, personal level. Where that energy came from is an interesting question - it seems to be some strange mix of Lucas, Marcia, and a bunch of other people - but we all remember it. That's what we're looking for again, and it wasn't present in the prequels, and it's harder to achieve now. Again, it's that background radiation effect - we're used to huge spectacle, so we need more than just that, and we're a more demanding audience now in terms of story and character.
posted by nubs at 11:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
The environment has changed.
Really. If you were not at least 10 years old in 1977 you cannot imagine what it was like to go into a theatre and see something like that. TFA will be another addition to a franchise which is part of a space opera genre which is part of a space supergenre none of which existed then. Before Star Wars space movies were 2001 and Silent Running and dreams of what Star Trek might look like up there. You went into that theatre with no idea what to expect, and were floored by a parade of fantastic images ripped from the covers of SF magazines and brought to life.
This is why some of us would like to have access to the original 1977 version of Star Wars because we do remember that difference, and Lucas' endless "fixes" to make it seem relevant today just obscure the real impact of what he did back then. 1977 Star Wars didn't need CGI and could live with its warts because warts and all it was a Citizen Kane level of invention beyond what had gone before, inventing a whole language of space adventure which has informed hundreds of successors.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:32 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Really. If you were not at least 10 years old in 1977 you cannot imagine what it was like to go into a theatre and see something like that. TFA will be another addition to a franchise which is part of a space opera genre which is part of a space supergenre none of which existed then. Before Star Wars space movies were 2001 and Silent Running and dreams of what Star Trek might look like up there. You went into that theatre with no idea what to expect, and were floored by a parade of fantastic images ripped from the covers of SF magazines and brought to life.
This is why some of us would like to have access to the original 1977 version of Star Wars because we do remember that difference, and Lucas' endless "fixes" to make it seem relevant today just obscure the real impact of what he did back then. 1977 Star Wars didn't need CGI and could live with its warts because warts and all it was a Citizen Kane level of invention beyond what had gone before, inventing a whole language of space adventure which has informed hundreds of successors.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:32 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've been pondering Jared's argument regarding Vader is a Black Knight and my belief that Vader makes no character choices as Anikan in I-III. Assuming we want character development in I-III, don't want to essentially change the events and still want Vader falling into darkness to make sense, I suggest that the focal character of I-III should have been Obi Wan and that the story should have been about his failure to prevent Anikan's fall.
In essence, Obi Wan is then presented with three major (disastrous) choices in I-III.
In Episode I, he is still in training and objects to Qui-Gon Jinn's purchasing/rescuing of the slave-boy, Anikan. However, when Qui-Gon is killed and he's presented with the reality that Anikan is going to be sent back to his home planet (and slavery) if he doesn't have a master, over his own misgivings, he chooses to take him on as a student. The fact that Obi-Wan is barely a Jedi himself and hardly ready to have this responsibility becomes important because I see ANH as having a stronger element of redemption story for Obi-Wan (he failed the father, he's not going to fail the son).
In Episode II, we see that Obi-Wan has been training Anikan for ten years. Attack of the Clones is actually the lousiest of the films in terms of plot/character (and the love scenes are the nadir of the franchise, IMO) though there are some bad-ass moments in the film. Anyhow, Anikan and Obi-Wan spend most of this movie apart. When they are reunited, Anikan has already fallen in love and slaughtered a bunch of Tuscan Raiders in anger. In my mind, the choice that Obi-Wan - still his master - has to make is whether to listen to his misgiving about letting Anikan leave alone with Padme or not. If there's a moment where Obi-Wan's force sensitivity is screaming at him "OH SHI... ANIKAN HAS DONE SOME BAD STUFF" and he pushes it aside (in essence, not trusting the force) and let's Anikan and Padme fly off (to get married) that gives Ewan McGregor something really meaty to play. There's the barest hint of this, but since Obi-Wan isn't the main character in the released version of the film, the focus is on Anikan.
And oh my goodness, the remarkable moment in Revenge of the Sith should be at the end of the Anikan/Obi-Wan battle in the lava. Obi-Wan has sliced up Anikan. All of the rest of the Jedi are dead. If only Obi-Wan had paid attention to the force in Episode II! So there he is over Anikan's body. Obi-Wan is overcome with emotions. His love for Anikan, his regret about failing the jedi (and especially Qui-Gon), his anger about what Anikan has done. And then, in that moment, just as Anikan is about to forever turn into Vader, Obi-Wan the jedi becomes Obi-Wan the jedi master. He realizes that Anikan has just become a mindless pawn of Palpatine. He chooses to finally give himself entirely to the force. He let's go of his hatred (and his love) and walks away instead of killing Anikan. We see complete peace in his eyes as he return to his space ship and shifts his focus to rescuing Padme.
And then we never *hear* from Vader again during this film. We see his body being recovered and we see him being turned into Vader, but he's already beyond caring for Padme at this point. What we see and hear is Obi-Wan bringing Luke to Tatooine and then him walking into the spartan little hut he remains in for the next 20 years or so and recognizing that he's home. The last image is Obi-Wan suddenly bristling as we cut to Vader's iconic mask being lowered on to his head accompanied by his classic theme music. The monster is still alive out there because you can never completely eliminate the dark side.
But, see this focus on Obi-Wan allows Anikan's slow seduction to the dark side to be complete and to be depicted as an otherwise good person's slide to horror. Anikan becomes a vital secondary character and a foil to our protagonist.
(and with a little bit of better writing, you can make Padme essentially the Han Solo of this franchise, but in reverse - motivated by love, she can make choices that essentially isolate her from her larger responsibilities in favor of her relationship with Anikan. This will make her no less badass because her final choice needs to be a rejection of him and she can do that by - yes! yes! - shooting first)
Call me, Hollywood. You won't have to cut any CGI and I'll make your films more dramatically satisfying. I work cheap, too.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
In essence, Obi Wan is then presented with three major (disastrous) choices in I-III.
In Episode I, he is still in training and objects to Qui-Gon Jinn's purchasing/rescuing of the slave-boy, Anikan. However, when Qui-Gon is killed and he's presented with the reality that Anikan is going to be sent back to his home planet (and slavery) if he doesn't have a master, over his own misgivings, he chooses to take him on as a student. The fact that Obi-Wan is barely a Jedi himself and hardly ready to have this responsibility becomes important because I see ANH as having a stronger element of redemption story for Obi-Wan (he failed the father, he's not going to fail the son).
In Episode II, we see that Obi-Wan has been training Anikan for ten years. Attack of the Clones is actually the lousiest of the films in terms of plot/character (and the love scenes are the nadir of the franchise, IMO) though there are some bad-ass moments in the film. Anyhow, Anikan and Obi-Wan spend most of this movie apart. When they are reunited, Anikan has already fallen in love and slaughtered a bunch of Tuscan Raiders in anger. In my mind, the choice that Obi-Wan - still his master - has to make is whether to listen to his misgiving about letting Anikan leave alone with Padme or not. If there's a moment where Obi-Wan's force sensitivity is screaming at him "OH SHI... ANIKAN HAS DONE SOME BAD STUFF" and he pushes it aside (in essence, not trusting the force) and let's Anikan and Padme fly off (to get married) that gives Ewan McGregor something really meaty to play. There's the barest hint of this, but since Obi-Wan isn't the main character in the released version of the film, the focus is on Anikan.
And oh my goodness, the remarkable moment in Revenge of the Sith should be at the end of the Anikan/Obi-Wan battle in the lava. Obi-Wan has sliced up Anikan. All of the rest of the Jedi are dead. If only Obi-Wan had paid attention to the force in Episode II! So there he is over Anikan's body. Obi-Wan is overcome with emotions. His love for Anikan, his regret about failing the jedi (and especially Qui-Gon), his anger about what Anikan has done. And then, in that moment, just as Anikan is about to forever turn into Vader, Obi-Wan the jedi becomes Obi-Wan the jedi master. He realizes that Anikan has just become a mindless pawn of Palpatine. He chooses to finally give himself entirely to the force. He let's go of his hatred (and his love) and walks away instead of killing Anikan. We see complete peace in his eyes as he return to his space ship and shifts his focus to rescuing Padme.
And then we never *hear* from Vader again during this film. We see his body being recovered and we see him being turned into Vader, but he's already beyond caring for Padme at this point. What we see and hear is Obi-Wan bringing Luke to Tatooine and then him walking into the spartan little hut he remains in for the next 20 years or so and recognizing that he's home. The last image is Obi-Wan suddenly bristling as we cut to Vader's iconic mask being lowered on to his head accompanied by his classic theme music. The monster is still alive out there because you can never completely eliminate the dark side.
But, see this focus on Obi-Wan allows Anikan's slow seduction to the dark side to be complete and to be depicted as an otherwise good person's slide to horror. Anikan becomes a vital secondary character and a foil to our protagonist.
(and with a little bit of better writing, you can make Padme essentially the Han Solo of this franchise, but in reverse - motivated by love, she can make choices that essentially isolate her from her larger responsibilities in favor of her relationship with Anikan. This will make her no less badass because her final choice needs to be a rejection of him and she can do that by - yes! yes! - shooting first)
Call me, Hollywood. You won't have to cut any CGI and I'll make your films more dramatically satisfying. I work cheap, too.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I really want to see the depressing version of RotJ where Han dies partway through and Luke abandons society at the end. That version sounds great.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Even better would be the addition of a trial sequence, where Vader is charged for his war crimes. You could do a spinoff, SW Law & Order: Sith Crimes Unit.
posted by nubs at 2:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 2:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It would have been a big improvement if the prequels had any protagonist at all.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even better would be the addition of a trial sequence, where Vader is charged for his war crimes. You could do a spinoff, SW Law & Order: Sith Crimes Unit.
IN THE GALACTIC JUSTICE SYSTEM,
SITH BASED OFFENSES ARE CONSIDERED ESPECIALLY HEINOUS.
IN THE REPUBLIC, THE DEDICATED JEDI'S WHO INVESTIGATE THESE
VICIOUS FELONIES ARE MEMBERS OF AN ELITE SQUAD KNOWN AS THE SITH CRIMES UNIT.
THESE ARE THEIR STORIES.
posted by littlesq at 10:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
IN THE GALACTIC JUSTICE SYSTEM,
SITH BASED OFFENSES ARE CONSIDERED ESPECIALLY HEINOUS.
IN THE REPUBLIC, THE DEDICATED JEDI'S WHO INVESTIGATE THESE
VICIOUS FELONIES ARE MEMBERS OF AN ELITE SQUAD KNOWN AS THE SITH CRIMES UNIT.
THESE ARE THEIR STORIES.
posted by littlesq at 10:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh jeez, if we have to have another LO/CSI show, at least throw us a bone, mix it up with a "CPO Chewie" or "Jawa Weekend At Bernie's."
posted by rhizome at 12:53 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:53 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
It would have been a big improvement if the prequels had any protagonist at all.
I just realized today that Palpatine is the only consistently interesting and entertaining character throughout all three movies. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Dooku all have their moments, but their strengths are probably based more on the actors portraying them than anything else. Whereas it's so much easier to write a compelling archvillain who trolls the oblivious protagonists and lesser villains.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:05 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just realized today that Palpatine is the only consistently interesting and entertaining character throughout all three movies. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Dooku all have their moments, but their strengths are probably based more on the actors portraying them than anything else. Whereas it's so much easier to write a compelling archvillain who trolls the oblivious protagonists and lesser villains.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:05 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
“The Great Unmade? The Early Drafts of Star Wars, Part 1,” Noel Thingvall, Cinetropolis, 22 October 2015
“The Great Unmade? The Early Drafts of Star Wars, Part 2,” Id., 26 October 2015
“Star Wars Splinter Of The Mind’s Eye Story Conference,” Tim Pelan, Id., 01 May 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 12:38 AM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
“The Great Unmade? The Early Drafts of Star Wars, Part 2,” Id., 26 October 2015
“Star Wars Splinter Of The Mind’s Eye Story Conference,” Tim Pelan, Id., 01 May 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 12:38 AM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Thanks for those ob1quixote! Awesome stuff that just further underlines that Lucas was very good at idea generation, but really needed some help with refining those ideas and making them work. From the last link:
FOSTER: The point is at the end of the picture, the impression I get-and I am still an outsider to the film-is that the princess is the princess and she doesn’t take anybody. It leaves Luke feeling disappointed because he was interested in her, but she is completely unattainable at the end of the picture. She’s just as divorced[from Luke and Han] as the other generals standing up there in the throne room. But Luke is not; Luke wants her. That’s the impression I get. When she’s standing up there hanging his medallion around him, she doesn’t try to kiss him or anything.
LUCAS: Well, another thing we could do is to go one step beyond the simple and move into the love story plot, where you have them kind of vying for each other. She is a spry little snappy kind of girl and he’s sort of liking her, and in the process of the movie, they fall in love and have a wonderful relationship and in the end she gets killed. it’s one of those tweaked ideas, but it’s one of those things that works. What I wanted to when we were shooting the other movie is have the princess run off with the Wookiee. But it sounds perverted.
posted by nubs at 11:23 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
FOSTER: The point is at the end of the picture, the impression I get-and I am still an outsider to the film-is that the princess is the princess and she doesn’t take anybody. It leaves Luke feeling disappointed because he was interested in her, but she is completely unattainable at the end of the picture. She’s just as divorced[from Luke and Han] as the other generals standing up there in the throne room. But Luke is not; Luke wants her. That’s the impression I get. When she’s standing up there hanging his medallion around him, she doesn’t try to kiss him or anything.
LUCAS: Well, another thing we could do is to go one step beyond the simple and move into the love story plot, where you have them kind of vying for each other. She is a spry little snappy kind of girl and he’s sort of liking her, and in the process of the movie, they fall in love and have a wonderful relationship and in the end she gets killed. it’s one of those tweaked ideas, but it’s one of those things that works. What I wanted to when we were shooting the other movie is have the princess run off with the Wookiee. But it sounds perverted.
posted by nubs at 11:23 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I wanted to when we were shooting the other movie is have the princess run off with the Wookiee. But it sounds perverted.
Great, now I'm having traumatic flashbacks to the Raiders of the Lost Arc story conference. Between that and this, I'm scared to ask what the relationship between Carol and Milner was like in the first draft in American Graffiti.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:42 AM on October 26, 2015
Great, now I'm having traumatic flashbacks to the Raiders of the Lost Arc story conference. Between that and this, I'm scared to ask what the relationship between Carol and Milner was like in the first draft in American Graffiti.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:42 AM on October 26, 2015
Dude... Leia ended up with Han cause of PTSD...... it all makes sense now!!
posted by Jacen at 7:09 AM on October 28, 2015
posted by Jacen at 7:09 AM on October 28, 2015
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posted by five fresh fish at 3:43 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]