Do you wanna build a theory?
October 23, 2015 5:05 AM Subscribe
Some ways we can read Elsa: "Cold and Hungry: Discourses of Anorexic Feminity in Frozen," "Disney's Frozen and Autism," "Reading Frozen as a Feminist," and "Disney's Frozen: Gay or Schizophrenic?"
Cool post. Frozen and Autism is an interesting lens through which to examine that film, one I've never really thought about. Mareli mentioned some of the more common critiques: whiteness, imperialism, gender/feminist, etc.
Also, these types of theories/critiques are healthy reminders that not everyone watches film in the same way or with the same experiences. This seems like obvious information but its easy to forget this very simple idea.
posted by Fizz at 5:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, these types of theories/critiques are healthy reminders that not everyone watches film in the same way or with the same experiences. This seems like obvious information but its easy to forget this very simple idea.
posted by Fizz at 5:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've had to suffer through repeated viewings of this with a young friend. I sit on the couch and read, and occasionally interject comments about anorexia, monarchy, whiteness, etc. What I still want to know is this: why are the girls eyes so often crossed?
I get this (boy does that film have a lot of whiteness! And monarchy, yeah, and lots of other kinds of privilege) but I really like it and, as I've discussed previously, I think it's a super carefully constructed film with some very positive messages for little girls (and other kids). At the very least, at the heart of the movie is a loving and supportive female connection and it is about a woman who is literally very powerful.
I get knee-jerk snark at a movie centered around thin beautiful white princesses, but I think your young friend could do a lot worse than liking Frozen.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
I get this (boy does that film have a lot of whiteness! And monarchy, yeah, and lots of other kinds of privilege) but I really like it and, as I've discussed previously, I think it's a super carefully constructed film with some very positive messages for little girls (and other kids). At the very least, at the heart of the movie is a loving and supportive female connection and it is about a woman who is literally very powerful.
I get knee-jerk snark at a movie centered around thin beautiful white princesses, but I think your young friend could do a lot worse than liking Frozen.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
I want this level of criticism for The Princess and the Frog but sadly it has not proven to be as popular or successful as Frozen. There are so many ideas and concerns that I have with that particular film, specifically with regard to: work/capitalism/wealth-distribution, race/bigotry, religion, music...
posted by Fizz at 6:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 6:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
"Discourses in masculinity and blended families."
You know, 'cause vague love interest has a reindeer sibling.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, 'cause vague love interest has a reindeer sibling.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I saw Frozen for the first time last week, so I'd actually read a great many articles of this sort before seeing the movie itself. I'm not saying they weren't there, but I didn't see any subtext besides a rejection of the Prince Charming fantasy (and an acknowledgment that there are types of love besides romantic love). It seems the reason the movie is subject to so many different critical readings is because the characters are actually so blank. Anyone in the world can relate to 'I have felt repressed, I want to feel free.'
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:06 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:06 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
the only reason to watch Disney is because everybody else in the world watches Disney and that holds our kids hostage to being cool and in-the-know. because there are way better kids media out there that don't rely purely on middle-class, suburban white contexts to produce their stories
Tokyo Godfathers, Mary and Max, The Avatar series, Princess Mononoke just to name a few
posted by runt at 6:27 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tokyo Godfathers, Mary and Max, The Avatar series, Princess Mononoke just to name a few
posted by runt at 6:27 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, 'cause vague love interest has a reindeer sibling.
Well, he's also adopted by trolls (Jewish ones, at that.)
posted by OmieWise at 6:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, he's also adopted by trolls (Jewish ones, at that.)
posted by OmieWise at 6:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I continue to simply not get Frozen. The characters and their motivations make no sense, it has more plot holes than snowflakes, the villain is either the dumbest in history or merely the worst-written, and the songs are as jarringly out-of-place as those wtf trolls. I'm all in favor of a subversive non-princess princess movie, but this really wasn't it, no matter how much post facto wisdom people try to inject into it.
It boggles me that this broken script that was dying for a rewrite was so successful anyway. Give me Beauty and the Beast's outsider/bullying themes, songs and villain anyday, or even Lion King's.
* Or, seriously, any Pixar movie.†
† other than Cars 2. That was shit.
posted by rokusan at 7:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
It boggles me that this broken script that was dying for a rewrite was so successful anyway. Give me Beauty and the Beast's outsider/bullying themes, songs and villain anyday, or even Lion King's.
* Or, seriously, any Pixar movie.†
† other than Cars 2. That was shit.
posted by rokusan at 7:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do you wanna build a theory?
We could deconstruct this song.
Maybe take a semiotic slant,
Or cite some Kant,
Or say the Jungians were wrong!
We used to read CRT,
And now we don't.
I wish you would tell me why!
Do you wanna use queer theory?
Or new historicism theory?
OK, bye ...
posted by kyrademon at 7:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [58 favorites]
We could deconstruct this song.
Maybe take a semiotic slant,
Or cite some Kant,
Or say the Jungians were wrong!
We used to read CRT,
And now we don't.
I wish you would tell me why!
Do you wanna use queer theory?
Or new historicism theory?
OK, bye ...
posted by kyrademon at 7:12 AM on October 23, 2015 [58 favorites]
rokusan: I continue to simply not get Frozen.
1) Phenomenal songs by a cast with extensive musical theater experience, around themes that every 3+yo girl can relate to.
2) Elsa's dress.
3) Rejecting the Prince Charming paradigm appeals to parents.
That's it. That's the movie.
posted by xthlc at 7:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
1) Phenomenal songs by a cast with extensive musical theater experience, around themes that every 3+yo girl can relate to.
2) Elsa's dress.
3) Rejecting the Prince Charming paradigm appeals to parents.
That's it. That's the movie.
posted by xthlc at 7:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
On Runt's excellent point, I realized how much better a princess movie could be after seeing Isao Takahata's excellent Tale of the Princess Kaguya a few days after Frozen.
I wish I could inject that movie directly into the veins of every Disney exec.
posted by rokusan at 7:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wish I could inject that movie directly into the veins of every Disney exec.
posted by rokusan at 7:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
runt: Tokyo Godfathers, Mary and Max, The Avatar series, Princess Mononoke just to name a few
You guys are listing movies and TV shows that you, as adults, like that happen to be cartoons. I guarantee you a 4-yo girl is not going to choose "A lonely Australian girl and an elderly Jewish man in New York develop an unlikely friendship through letters" over "A queen in a fabulous sparkly dress sings about liberation while building a castle with her magic ice powers". I mean c'mon.
posted by xthlc at 7:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [60 favorites]
You guys are listing movies and TV shows that you, as adults, like that happen to be cartoons. I guarantee you a 4-yo girl is not going to choose "A lonely Australian girl and an elderly Jewish man in New York develop an unlikely friendship through letters" over "A queen in a fabulous sparkly dress sings about liberation while building a castle with her magic ice powers". I mean c'mon.
posted by xthlc at 7:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [60 favorites]
My five year old niece seems to be in agreement with xthlc.
If we're going to pick apart Frozen we could also consider the implications of Elsa apparently being able to create artificial intelligence. If she can create Olaf, why not something smarter? Not to mention the implications for international relations of a kingdom with the ability to bury its rivals under an endless winter. Elsa is very powerful by the standards of Disney magic. Can't think off-hand of anyone who rivals her, actually. Maybe Maleficent? Jafar could if he could get around the whole genie restrictions thing. Rapunzel can bring back the dead but people are forever doing that in Disney movies so I guess it's not such a big deal.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
If we're going to pick apart Frozen we could also consider the implications of Elsa apparently being able to create artificial intelligence. If she can create Olaf, why not something smarter? Not to mention the implications for international relations of a kingdom with the ability to bury its rivals under an endless winter. Elsa is very powerful by the standards of Disney magic. Can't think off-hand of anyone who rivals her, actually. Maybe Maleficent? Jafar could if he could get around the whole genie restrictions thing. Rapunzel can bring back the dead but people are forever doing that in Disney movies so I guess it's not such a big deal.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Don't forget, it's also about escaping from a repressive religious upbringing, of course.
Personally, what I get out of Frozen is a bunch of themes about anxiety and depression, about dealing with your feelings rather than just suppressing them. I love the trolls and the message I take away from the movie is:
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
The first time I watched “Let It Go” on youtube, before seeing the movie in theaters, I completely choked up at the line “no right no wrong, no rules for me.” Tears started streaming down my cheeks. It was beautiful. I grew up in a conservative evangelicalism that I eventually found highly restrictive. As I began to extricate myself, my family and friends put me through a special kind of hell. But even through all of the pain and the tears, I entered into freedom when I left behind their rules, their expectations, their control.I mean yeah, a lot of people can relate to that, to escaping (or wanting to escape) from different kinds of oppression, to deciding to stop oppressing themselves. And then realizing that total isolation doesn't work either. That's a big part of what makes it so successful, so good, that universal relatability.
Personally, what I get out of Frozen is a bunch of themes about anxiety and depression, about dealing with your feelings rather than just suppressing them. I love the trolls and the message I take away from the movie is:
People make bad choices if they're mad or scared or stressedOr, as Mr. Rogers would put it "Knowing that we can be loved exactly as we are gives us all the best opportunity for growing into the healthiest of people."
But throw a little love their way, and you'll bring out their best
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
Hating on Disney is much cooler and trendier than embracing it, embracing it is just straight up pop culture consumption which kind of happens naturally without effort to "be cool." I think adults are well encouraged to criticize the ongoing total whiteness issues and so forth but yeah my five year old daughter has zero fucks to give for most anime marketed to older dudes. Also she loves "Descendents" now which is quite weird, she says she likes Malificent's daughter "Mal" more than Elsa
posted by aydeejones at 8:11 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 8:11 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was listening to melodic death metal the other day reflecting on my youthful admiration of LaVeyan satanism and other dark themes, and caught my daughter painting "live to be evil" on our fence when I checked on her in the back yard. Lulz
posted by aydeejones at 8:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by aydeejones at 8:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also in high school I wrote a newsletter about satanism and had an article about "nonconforming conformists" and still would probably think my future self a sellout for saying that pop consumption happens without effort. But yeah, it's popular because a lot of people decided it's cool, and there are social pressures to embrace it and hopefully Disney keeps moving in the right direction. I remember cringing at the various "chocolate and women" gags in Frozen but they were intended to resonate with little girls and women for different reasons. Shrug
posted by aydeejones at 8:16 AM on October 23, 2015
posted by aydeejones at 8:16 AM on October 23, 2015
You're right about the sparkly dress and 4yos, xthlc, but per my first comment, I don't even get Frozen's success in comparison to other, far superior Disney movies. I'm not comparing it to adult films. Can't a movie for children also have a plot that makes sense?
Re Kaguya (other comment), that to me is more an example of how a princess movie can be good without descending to whatever that Frozen mess was. I've got no 4yo market to study, but the 8yo I went with loved it very, very much.
posted by rokusan at 8:18 AM on October 23, 2015
Re Kaguya (other comment), that to me is more an example of how a princess movie can be good without descending to whatever that Frozen mess was. I've got no 4yo market to study, but the 8yo I went with loved it very, very much.
posted by rokusan at 8:18 AM on October 23, 2015
Ok but like Frozen, Lion King is only good if you ignore the plot implications (prey animals like being ruled by their predators; Scar totally had sex with those lionesses; and, uh, if Simba's mom was still alive when he became king, would...he... also? The male and female romantic leads were probably half-siblings. Or even full ones.).
I mean it was the most YAY SACRED BLOODLINE PATRIARCHY KNOW YOUR PLACE movie one can imagine. So you have to turn off that part of your brain and just enjoy fart jokes and hakuna matata and also Scar's campiness, which was enjoyable/offensive in the kinda-coded-gay-Disney-villain tradition.
posted by emjaybee at 8:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I mean it was the most YAY SACRED BLOODLINE PATRIARCHY KNOW YOUR PLACE movie one can imagine. So you have to turn off that part of your brain and just enjoy fart jokes and hakuna matata and also Scar's campiness, which was enjoyable/offensive in the kinda-coded-gay-Disney-villain tradition.
posted by emjaybee at 8:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Who are we to say that a man and a reindeer and a snowman and a reindeer can't find happiness in whatever way they choose?
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think a huge part of the movie's success (aside from that ridiculously catchy song I find myself half-consciously humming quite regularly) is the marketing. Little girls can become Elsa and escape all the restriction that define their lives.
I said in a previous thread, that single head toss-arm sweep in the climax of that musical number encapsulates so much of what little girls yearn for. And anyone who feels restricted in life, I guess. Hell, I'm a 43-year-old dude and it gives me a little tingle.
posted by gottabefunky at 8:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I said in a previous thread, that single head toss-arm sweep in the climax of that musical number encapsulates so much of what little girls yearn for. And anyone who feels restricted in life, I guess. Hell, I'm a 43-year-old dude and it gives me a little tingle.
posted by gottabefunky at 8:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
The interesting question is why little girls prefer Elsa to Anna, when Anna does much more and gets a boyfriend and is the sympathetic protagonist. (I know, I know, YOUR special snowflake daughter prefers Anna, whatever).
That's because FROZEN is a Willy Russell play. It's about a woman saying "you know what, I don't have to live by YOUR rules, and do what YOU want, I am my own person!" And that's incredibly attractive, especially for little girls who are so, so expected to be nice and kind and sharing and good.
Also, dress, hair, enormous magic powers, best song. Does anyone else always think of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN creating a palace on Mars? And worked out who Elsa can beat? (Not Superman, but Batman for sure...)
Of course, I'm neither five nor a girl, so what do I know?
posted by alasdair at 9:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's because FROZEN is a Willy Russell play. It's about a woman saying "you know what, I don't have to live by YOUR rules, and do what YOU want, I am my own person!" And that's incredibly attractive, especially for little girls who are so, so expected to be nice and kind and sharing and good.
Also, dress, hair, enormous magic powers, best song. Does anyone else always think of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN creating a palace on Mars? And worked out who Elsa can beat? (Not Superman, but Batman for sure...)
Of course, I'm neither five nor a girl, so what do I know?
posted by alasdair at 9:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Summer's Over, Olaf: Disney Sidekicks and Suicidal Ideation
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's so weird to me that everyone sees "Let it Go" as this triumphant song of liberation when, in context, it's so deeply ironic. The whole time Elsa is singing it, the viewer is thinking, "No, wait, you're not free, you've just done a terrible thing rejecting your sister and trapping your whole country in eternal winter." The whole point of the song seems to be that you can feel wholeheartedly like you're being true to yourself and doing the right thing yet be deeply mistaken and unaware of the ways you're hurting other people.
To me, the most feminist part of the movie is when the trolls are meeting Anna and singing that pushy song about how she's gonna come around and get together with Kristoff and the whole scene is structured to make the viewer think, "Shut up and listen, trolls! Let the woman talk!"
posted by straight at 9:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
To me, the most feminist part of the movie is when the trolls are meeting Anna and singing that pushy song about how she's gonna come around and get together with Kristoff and the whole scene is structured to make the viewer think, "Shut up and listen, trolls! Let the woman talk!"
posted by straight at 9:22 AM on October 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
mareli: "What I still want to know is this: why are the girls eyes so often crossed?"
I think Anna is slightly cross-eyed because Kristin Bell is slightly cross-eyed.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think Anna is slightly cross-eyed because Kristin Bell is slightly cross-eyed.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Does anyone else always think of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN creating a palace on Mars?
Literally every comic-reading middle-aged dad who took their kid(s) to see Frozen.
I'm assuming the Alan Moore/Mark Millar re-make of Frozen reads more-or-less like like Red Son.
posted by GuyZero at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Literally every comic-reading middle-aged dad who took their kid(s) to see Frozen.
I'm assuming the Alan Moore/Mark Millar re-make of Frozen reads more-or-less like like Red Son.
posted by GuyZero at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I understand that the story hinges on the parents isolating/separating Elsa from Anna because of her cryokinetic powers. I cannot help but wonder at how much cooler the story would be if Elsa was taught to manage and deal with her powers, her sister supporting her during this difficult time.
The two of them bonding even closer as they mature, only to have the story focus on the evil Duke of Weselton conspiring with Hans to take over the Kingdom. The two sisters cast out of their home through a series of misfortunes must team up with a rag-tag team of heroes they meet in the forest to battle their way back to the Kingdom they rightful deserve.
I would watch the fuck out of this and it explores the same ideals that Frozen is so often lauded for: sisterhood, female agency, family, power, etc.
posted by Fizz at 10:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The two of them bonding even closer as they mature, only to have the story focus on the evil Duke of Weselton conspiring with Hans to take over the Kingdom. The two sisters cast out of their home through a series of misfortunes must team up with a rag-tag team of heroes they meet in the forest to battle their way back to the Kingdom they rightful deserve.
I would watch the fuck out of this and it explores the same ideals that Frozen is so often lauded for: sisterhood, female agency, family, power, etc.
posted by Fizz at 10:13 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
"cryokinetic powers"
"how much cooler"
I see what you did there.
posted by I-baLL at 10:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
"how much cooler"
I see what you did there.
posted by I-baLL at 10:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I understand that the story hinges on the parents isolating/separating Elsa from Anna because of her cryokinetic powers. I cannot help but wonder at how much cooler the story would be if Elsa was taught to manage and deal with her powers, her sister supporting her during this difficult time.
Again with the comics, I think was also the basic theme of about 60% of the first X-Men run back in the day.
posted by GuyZero at 10:36 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Again with the comics, I think was also the basic theme of about 60% of the first X-Men run back in the day.
posted by GuyZero at 10:36 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does anyone else always think of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN creating a palace on Mars? And worked out who Elsa can beat? (Not Superman, but Batman for sure...)
With both properties under the Disney aegis, we can hopefully one day find out if Elsa could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
With both properties under the Disney aegis, we can hopefully one day find out if Elsa could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's because FROZEN is a Willy Russell play. It's about a woman saying "you know what, I don't have to live by YOUR rules..." -- alasdair
Hmm. Maybe that's it. Maybe instead of all the apologetics trying to make it a moral story after the fact, it really comes down to those 4yo girls yearning-and-learning how to be the kind of "princess" we have in our modern society. The fuck you, I do what I want! kind of princess.
Not the noblest thing, but at least I can see how a celebration of selfishness and unfettered impulse might speak to a typical child who's accustomed to hearing No! all day. It's usually the villainous bad kid in a story who acts that way, after all, but here Disney is presenting that as somehow heroic? Yeah, the 4yo in me could get behind that, I guess.
Well, maybe, anyway. I hate you all for making me think about this movie again. I was content walking out muttering "Okay, well that was the worst Disney movie in a decade...."
(Then, a billion and a half inexplicable dollars later...)
posted by rokusan at 10:43 AM on October 23, 2015
Hmm. Maybe that's it. Maybe instead of all the apologetics trying to make it a moral story after the fact, it really comes down to those 4yo girls yearning-and-learning how to be the kind of "princess" we have in our modern society. The fuck you, I do what I want! kind of princess.
Not the noblest thing, but at least I can see how a celebration of selfishness and unfettered impulse might speak to a typical child who's accustomed to hearing No! all day. It's usually the villainous bad kid in a story who acts that way, after all, but here Disney is presenting that as somehow heroic? Yeah, the 4yo in me could get behind that, I guess.
Well, maybe, anyway. I hate you all for making me think about this movie again. I was content walking out muttering "Okay, well that was the worst Disney movie in a decade...."
(Then, a billion and a half inexplicable dollars later...)
posted by rokusan at 10:43 AM on October 23, 2015
Does anyone else always think of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN creating a palace on Mars? And worked out who Elsa can beat? (Not Superman, but Batman for sure...)
With both properties under the Disney aegis, we can hopefully one day find out if Elsa could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.
It's all coming together now. Her parents kidnapped her from Hoth. And if we're placing Elsa in the Star Wars universe, we need to just straight up make her a Sith lord. Because fuck yeah!!
posted by Fizz at 10:45 AM on October 23, 2015
With both properties under the Disney aegis, we can hopefully one day find out if Elsa could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.
It's all coming together now. Her parents kidnapped her from Hoth. And if we're placing Elsa in the Star Wars universe, we need to just straight up make her a Sith lord. Because fuck yeah!!
posted by Fizz at 10:45 AM on October 23, 2015
With both properties under the Disney aegis, we can hopefully one day find out if Elsa could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.
You can find out today! This comment brought to you by Disney Infinity 3.0.
posted by drezdn at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
You can find out today! This comment brought to you by Disney Infinity 3.0.
posted by drezdn at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the fascination four year old girls have for Elsa over Anna is understandable. Anna is fun and spunky, but Elsa has super-powers. She's a superhero. Boys have Batman and Superman and Spiderman and Iron Man and dozens of others. Girls have... uh, well, there's Wonder Woman, but she hasn't had a big movie. Elsa is all they've got and she's pretty bad-ass.
Elsa can make snow. My daughter walks around the house singing Let It Go and pointing her arms out making "PSSSSTTT" noises (she's shooting out snow. Obviously) all the time. She's barely seen snow in real life.
I still like the movie. I think the development of the bad guy is extremely bizarre and poorly handled (there is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no indication that he's anything other than honest and kind until the plot demands that he's not), and it's not quite clear why Elsa is, all of a sudden, able to control her powers just because Anna saves her and says that she loves her, but hey. The songs are pretty catchy, the women get along okay without a man around to pull them out of trouble, and it looks gorgeous.
Beats the hell out of Peppa Pig, I'll tell you that.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Elsa can make snow. My daughter walks around the house singing Let It Go and pointing her arms out making "PSSSSTTT" noises (she's shooting out snow. Obviously) all the time. She's barely seen snow in real life.
I still like the movie. I think the development of the bad guy is extremely bizarre and poorly handled (there is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no indication that he's anything other than honest and kind until the plot demands that he's not), and it's not quite clear why Elsa is, all of a sudden, able to control her powers just because Anna saves her and says that she loves her, but hey. The songs are pretty catchy, the women get along okay without a man around to pull them out of trouble, and it looks gorgeous.
Beats the hell out of Peppa Pig, I'll tell you that.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:18 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Do you wanna build a theory?
That it's a demon! A dancing demon! No, something isn't right there...
hmm interesting mashup possibilities
posted by nat at 11:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
That it's a demon! A dancing demon! No, something isn't right there...
hmm interesting mashup possibilities
posted by nat at 11:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Then there was the time my daughter started grabbing handfuls of crushed ice out of a soda-can display at the store and started chucking them around, chanting "I'm Elsa!"
posted by gottabefunky at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
> "(there is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no indication that he's anything other than honest and kind until the plot demands that he's not)"
This criticism always surprises me. Honest, kind people usually don't tell obvious lies during supposed love songs.
posted by kyrademon at 11:46 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This criticism always surprises me. Honest, kind people usually don't tell obvious lies during supposed love songs.
posted by kyrademon at 11:46 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I read an interview with the director where she said that there was supposed to be a theme, originally, of mirrors and reflections, fitting with images of ice. It kind of got de-emphasized as it evolved, apparently, but that was how she said she saw Hans... Just a mirror. When he's with Anna, he acts like Anna. When he's with the Duke of Weaselton, he acts like the Duke. It's all just an image. Re-watching it with that in mind, I have to say it does seem pretty striking, especially during "Love is an Open Door."
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you really want to pit Elsa against an imperial star destroyer, get a Disney Infinity 3.0...
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:20 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:20 PM on October 23, 2015
Beats the hell out of Peppa Pig, I'll tell you that.
Okay, but it's no Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom.
posted by No-sword at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, but it's no Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom.
posted by No-sword at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
My five year old niece seems to be in agreement with xthlc.A Whiter Shade of Blue.
If we're going to pick apart Frozen we could also consider the implications of Elsa apparently being able to create artificial intelligence. If she can create Olaf, why not something smarter? Not to mention the implications for international relations of a kingdom with the ability to bury its rivals under an endless winter. Elsa is very powerful by the standards of Disney magic. Can't think off-hand of anyone who rivals her, actually. Maybe Maleficent? Jafar could if he could get around the whole genie restrictions thing. Rapunzel can bring back the dead but people are forever doing that in Disney movies so I guess it's not such a big deal.
It's been done. Probably more than once, but that is the only one I've read.
posted by bouvin at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
... it's not quite clear why Elsa is, all of a sudden, able to control her powers just because Anna saves her and says that she loves her,..
New critical theory : Elsa as Eckhart Tolle
posted by ch1x0r at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2015
New critical theory : Elsa as Eckhart Tolle
posted by ch1x0r at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2015
Elsa was the villain in the early drafts, and she still retains a lot of characteristics of Disney's villains in the final version. "Let it Go" works beautifully because it's a villain song on par with "Poor Unfortunate Souls" or "Be Prepared".
That's why Elsa is better than Anna - Disney villains are allowed a fuller range of emotion than Disney progragonists, who are blander and safer, on average. Elsa has a little bit of both worlds, so she's allowed more range, more mistakes, but she's still sympathetic and a point of audience identification.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's why Elsa is better than Anna - Disney villains are allowed a fuller range of emotion than Disney progragonists, who are blander and safer, on average. Elsa has a little bit of both worlds, so she's allowed more range, more mistakes, but she's still sympathetic and a point of audience identification.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think the development of the bad guy is extremely bizarre and poorly handled (there is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no indication that he's anything other than honest and kind until the plot demands that he's not)
Isn't that the point? Some people can be charming and seem friendly even though they are self-centered liars who don't actually care about you. And subverting the trope of falling in love at first sight in the space of a single date/song.
"Wait, you got engaged to someone you just met that day?"
posted by straight at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Isn't that the point? Some people can be charming and seem friendly even though they are self-centered liars who don't actually care about you. And subverting the trope of falling in love at first sight in the space of a single date/song.
"Wait, you got engaged to someone you just met that day?"
posted by straight at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Isn't that the point? Some people can be charming and seem friendly even though they are self-centered liars who don't actually care about you. And subverting the trope of falling in love at first sight in the space of a single date/song.
Yeah, I guess, but he spends almost the entire movie being "Mr. Nice Guy". We don't even get an evil smile when no-one is looking. He doesn't get caught in a lie and fast talk his way out of it (which he could do easily enough, because Anna is sweet and naïve). He looks like another good guy, part of a love triangle, and then he magically becomes the mustache twirling bad guy right when the plot needs him to be.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:09 PM on October 23, 2015
Yeah, I guess, but he spends almost the entire movie being "Mr. Nice Guy". We don't even get an evil smile when no-one is looking. He doesn't get caught in a lie and fast talk his way out of it (which he could do easily enough, because Anna is sweet and naïve). He looks like another good guy, part of a love triangle, and then he magically becomes the mustache twirling bad guy right when the plot needs him to be.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:09 PM on October 23, 2015
But that's good. He doesn't deceive Anna because she's a fool. He deceives her because sometimes bad people are quite deceptive and it's not necessarily your fault if you get taken in.
Anna was foolish to get engaged so quickly, but his portrayal makes clear that he might well have deceived her no matter how careful she had been.
posted by straight at 3:19 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Anna was foolish to get engaged so quickly, but his portrayal makes clear that he might well have deceived her no matter how careful she had been.
posted by straight at 3:19 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I thought it was kind of cool that in retrospect (or at the time, if you're much smarter than me) you can see how his part in the falling-in-love song could be interpreted as having been made up on the spot in response to whatever Anna wanted to hear (as opposed to, they really are fated to fall in love, like most Disney movies) -- this is what kyrademon means above, I think. I don't know how much this gets through to kids who barely have a theory of mind, but who knows, you watch it every morning for three months, a few subtleties are bound to sink in.
posted by No-sword at 4:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 4:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's Never Lurgi: "He looks like another good guy, part of a love triangle, and then he magically becomes the mustache twirling bad guy right when the plot needs him to be."
That was what I liked most about him. It's not "magical", it's how con-men actually work - they trick people. I enjoyed that instead of just him tricking the characters in the movie, he also tricks the audience.
posted by Bugbread at 5:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was what I liked most about him. It's not "magical", it's how con-men actually work - they trick people. I enjoyed that instead of just him tricking the characters in the movie, he also tricks the audience.
posted by Bugbread at 5:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I did pick up on it when I saw the movie. My reaction was pretty much:
Hans: We finish each other's --
Anna: Sandwiches!
Hans: That's what I was gonna say!
(My thoughts): Ha! Funny! He was going for "sentences", and she --
... Wait, isn't this song about how they're supposed to be so in sync with each other? But if he was going for "sentences" and she didn't, then they're not really so much in sync ...
... And wait, why is he saying that sandwiches was what he was going to say when it clearly wasn't? Did he just lie to her?
!!! Holy crap he's PLAYING her! This isn't a song about how they're in sync, it's a song about how he's MAKING HER BELIEVE they're in sync!
So, his proving to be the villain didn't come out of nowhere for me at all.
posted by kyrademon at 5:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Hans: We finish each other's --
Anna: Sandwiches!
Hans: That's what I was gonna say!
(My thoughts): Ha! Funny! He was going for "sentences", and she --
... Wait, isn't this song about how they're supposed to be so in sync with each other? But if he was going for "sentences" and she didn't, then they're not really so much in sync ...
... And wait, why is he saying that sandwiches was what he was going to say when it clearly wasn't? Did he just lie to her?
!!! Holy crap he's PLAYING her! This isn't a song about how they're in sync, it's a song about how he's MAKING HER BELIEVE they're in sync!
So, his proving to be the villain didn't come out of nowhere for me at all.
posted by kyrademon at 5:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
See, I noticed that, but I thought he was just going along with her kookiness because he's swept up in the Magic Pixie Moment. Never expected it to be a cold-blooded lie. (Which explains how I lost my own kingdom to a silver-tongued knave and came to tend the horses at this tavern... but that's another story.)
posted by No-sword at 5:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 5:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I used to be a princess, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
posted by kyrademon at 5:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 5:53 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
there is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no indication that he's anything other than honest and kind until the plot demands that he's not
It's not just the sandwiches line -- the WHOLE SONG is him mirroring her deliberately while also talking about how much he intends to use her.
"I've been searching my whole life to find my own place" -- he has no chance of inheriting. He wants his own kingdom.
"but with you, I've FOUND my place, And it's nothing like I've ever known before! Love is an open door!" -- aha yes, I will marry you and TAKE YOUR KINGDOM, you are just an opening for me to walk through
"Say goodbye to the pain of the past, we don't have to feel it any more" -- I can go from being the last in line to the first, woohoo!
So that, plus the "In Summer" song, which is *hilarious*, plus Let It Go, plus the trolls song, plus Anna's dashing heroics and Hans's stolid awesomeness plus ANNA TURNING TO ICE AND BEING LIBERATED BY THE LOVE OF HER SISTER
and that dress
posted by KathrynT at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's not just the sandwiches line -- the WHOLE SONG is him mirroring her deliberately while also talking about how much he intends to use her.
"I've been searching my whole life to find my own place" -- he has no chance of inheriting. He wants his own kingdom.
"but with you, I've FOUND my place, And it's nothing like I've ever known before! Love is an open door!" -- aha yes, I will marry you and TAKE YOUR KINGDOM, you are just an opening for me to walk through
"Say goodbye to the pain of the past, we don't have to feel it any more" -- I can go from being the last in line to the first, woohoo!
So that, plus the "In Summer" song, which is *hilarious*, plus Let It Go, plus the trolls song, plus Anna's dashing heroics and Hans's stolid awesomeness plus ANNA TURNING TO ICE AND BEING LIBERATED BY THE LOVE OF HER SISTER
and that dress
posted by KathrynT at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
ALSO once I was in a Disney store with my daughter, and they have a little song place in the disney store where the music can be really loud without it being really loud everywhere, and Let It Go came on and I sang it (I'm a singer), and then the next song was In Summer and this dad was there and he was ALSO a singer and so HE sang THAT, and then the NEXT song was "Love Is an Open Door" and we sang it as a duet, and it was awesome.
posted by KathrynT at 6:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 6:45 PM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
My wife & I watched 'Frozen' on our 7th Wedding Anniversary last year. The idea was to watch it at home with our daughter, who was three at the time and had never seen the movie but she knew who Elsa and Anna were and could sing 'Let It Go.' Our daughter loved the movie up until the GIANT SCARY SNOWMONSTER appeared and that was the end of that. We put her to bed and then finished watching 'Frozen' by ourselves. (Do we know how to party or what?) Later I was washing dishes and for some reason I was singing a mash-up of 'Frozen' and the theme song from 'Cheers' and that inspired to me to write this Frozen/Cheers fan fiction.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 6:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 6:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
So that, plus the "In Summer" song, which is *hilarious*, plus Let It Go, plus the trolls song,
I think you could make the case that every single song in the Frozen soundtrack has some form of irony in it, whether it's the foreshadowing in "Frozen Heart" or Anna not knowing what buttons she's pushing with "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?" or how neither Olaf nor Anna realize what exactly they're anticipating in "For the First Time" or "In Summer" or the trolls making the wrong assumption in "Fixer Upper" (or the audience not realizing the trolls are more correct than we suppose) or Kristoff doing's Sven's lines in "Reindeers Are Better Than People" (subverting the Disney trope of talking/singing animals while still kinda giving it to us anyway) or the stuff we've already discussed about "Let it Go" and "Love is an Open Door."
Lyrically, I think Frozen is in a different league from most other Disney musicals.
posted by straight at 9:39 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you could make the case that every single song in the Frozen soundtrack has some form of irony in it, whether it's the foreshadowing in "Frozen Heart" or Anna not knowing what buttons she's pushing with "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?" or how neither Olaf nor Anna realize what exactly they're anticipating in "For the First Time" or "In Summer" or the trolls making the wrong assumption in "Fixer Upper" (or the audience not realizing the trolls are more correct than we suppose) or Kristoff doing's Sven's lines in "Reindeers Are Better Than People" (subverting the Disney trope of talking/singing animals while still kinda giving it to us anyway) or the stuff we've already discussed about "Let it Go" and "Love is an Open Door."
Lyrically, I think Frozen is in a different league from most other Disney musicals.
posted by straight at 9:39 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Totally agree with straight. The first time I watched, I didn't really pay attention to the lyrics because, well, usually you don't have to. And I didn't like the movie at all. It seemed so rushed, so short on character development! It made no sense to me why the characters did the things they did.
After watching it 300 more times (I have two and four year old daughters) I realized all of that happens during the songs I had zoned out through.
Also, a super-creepy moment when you re-watch knowing what Hans really is... the way he lights up when she says she's a princess. You can almost see the wheels turning.
Also, can I just say that I find it hilarious that the trolls' job is basically just to tell the characters the plot of the movie, as if they (the trolls) have also seen it 300 times before? And how that turns out to be a terrible idea every time? I guess the trolls don't care because they know about the happy ending.
Oh, and also, can I just say the same thing has happened to me now with the seven minute "Frozen Fever" short film? The first time I watched it, it was just cute and catchy. But after many re-watches (daughters), I have come to really admire the character development. It's so in keeping with Elsa's character for her to totally stress out about giving Anna a "perfect" day. "I've worked for weeks, planned everything within my power. (I even got Kristoff and Sven to take a shower!)" "For everything you are to me, and all you've been through, I'm making today I perfect day for you." Anxiety, guilt, perfectionism. And then it comes back to bite her in the ass. Anna has to save her again. And Elsa's like "I ruined everything."
I love the way it ends... "Elsa we can't go on like this. Let's put this day on hold. Come on, admit it to yourself... 'All right, I... have a cold.'" "Best birthday present ever... you letting me take care of you."
Forgive yourself. Cut yourself some slack. Stop trying to be perfect. Acknowledge your own suffering. Love yourself. Accept help. Such a great message, badly needed by my own oldest daughter (and me.) It fits so well with the movie. Makes me really excited to see the sequel. I love these characters.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:06 AM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
After watching it 300 more times (I have two and four year old daughters) I realized all of that happens during the songs I had zoned out through.
Also, a super-creepy moment when you re-watch knowing what Hans really is... the way he lights up when she says she's a princess. You can almost see the wheels turning.
Also, can I just say that I find it hilarious that the trolls' job is basically just to tell the characters the plot of the movie, as if they (the trolls) have also seen it 300 times before? And how that turns out to be a terrible idea every time? I guess the trolls don't care because they know about the happy ending.
Oh, and also, can I just say the same thing has happened to me now with the seven minute "Frozen Fever" short film? The first time I watched it, it was just cute and catchy. But after many re-watches (daughters), I have come to really admire the character development. It's so in keeping with Elsa's character for her to totally stress out about giving Anna a "perfect" day. "I've worked for weeks, planned everything within my power. (I even got Kristoff and Sven to take a shower!)" "For everything you are to me, and all you've been through, I'm making today I perfect day for you." Anxiety, guilt, perfectionism. And then it comes back to bite her in the ass. Anna has to save her again. And Elsa's like "I ruined everything."
I love the way it ends... "Elsa we can't go on like this. Let's put this day on hold. Come on, admit it to yourself... 'All right, I... have a cold.'" "Best birthday present ever... you letting me take care of you."
Forgive yourself. Cut yourself some slack. Stop trying to be perfect. Acknowledge your own suffering. Love yourself. Accept help. Such a great message, badly needed by my own oldest daughter (and me.) It fits so well with the movie. Makes me really excited to see the sequel. I love these characters.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:06 AM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
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posted by mareli at 5:20 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]