Casting a Wide Net: 17 Possible (but unlikely) Next Bond Reimaginings
November 4, 2015 11:45 AM Subscribe
Daniel Craig's public statements that he is done playing James Bond have re-ignited the debate about whether we need yet another white guy playing the character (*cough*). The AV Club asks not only whether we need another white guy, but whether we need Bond to be straight, young, British, or even remotely sane.
I was just telling someone how I think it would be really cool if the next James Bond were a woman.
Semi-related: Feminist Bond Girl
posted by melissasaurus at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Semi-related: Feminist Bond Girl
posted by melissasaurus at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd love it to be a lady next time.
That said, I am completely on board with the idea of 1960s Ewan MacGregor.
posted by mochapickle at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
That said, I am completely on board with the idea of 1960s Ewan MacGregor.
posted by mochapickle at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it's very interesting that we can suggest a lesbian Bond but we still can't have a gay or bisexual male Bond - that is, there's no reason one could not propose both a queer woman Bond and a queer man Bond. Queer men and women are not interchangeable and do not represent each other. (I mean, the real reason is homphobia, obvs; lesbians - or Kristin Stewart - are hot, and still get Bond girls; gay men are squicky and can we really accept Bond boys?)
posted by Frowner at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
But, personally, what I think is that we need more spy franchises. We have Bourne, we have Bond, we have Ethan Hunt, but we should have more. They could be of any gender, country of origin, background, etc. With the modern world there are so many plot ideas around that it doesn't make sense to not start a few new franchises and make them diverse. Diversity also brings in diversity in plots. "Spy" was great this year. We need more of that.
posted by I-baLL at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Although, unlike option #2 in the linked article, I'd want the female James Bond to not be a daughter/sister of the "real" James Bond. I'd want her to be MI6 on her own record, not motivated by avenging her father or any of that nonsense.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
A bit off-topic but why the hell does the US have to wait for 2 weeks in order to see SPECTRE? Do the film studios want people to pirate their movies? Why such a big difference between release dates between both sides of the Atlantic?
posted by I-baLL at 11:55 AM on November 4, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 11:55 AM on November 4, 2015
A bit off-topic but why the hell does the US have to wait for 2 weeks in order to see SPECTRE?
That's the time it takes for the English subtitles to be written.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:57 AM on November 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
That's the time it takes for the English subtitles to be written.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:57 AM on November 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
Dev Patel with Karen Gillan as his boss is a brilliant suggestion.
posted by colie at 11:58 AM on November 4, 2015
posted by colie at 11:58 AM on November 4, 2015
So yeah - make Bond sort of like a positional thing, a name given to the 00* agent who's the most competent, dangerous, or who has just lived the longest. They're not James Bond, they're just 'the Bond.'
Then put a former SAS trans woman in the position and watch with joy as the wheel spins.
posted by Mooski at 11:58 AM on November 4, 2015
Then put a former SAS trans woman in the position and watch with joy as the wheel spins.
posted by Mooski at 11:58 AM on November 4, 2015
Bond has to be British as he works for MI6. Preferrably not Idris Elba, though, as he's a West Ham fan.
posted by marienbad at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by marienbad at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also: I think Jamie Clayton could pull it off, British or not.
posted by Mooski at 12:01 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by Mooski at 12:01 PM on November 4, 2015
Bond, in the tradition of The Dread Pirate Roberts.
posted by mosk at 12:01 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by mosk at 12:01 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
A bit off-topic but why the hell does the US have to wait for 2 weeks in order to see SPECTRE?
I think the UK deserves to get a pass on this one given that through the idiosynchracies of international film distribution, they usually get movies months after their release in the US. The home release in the US beats the UK premiere on a regular basis.
posted by Badgermann at 12:02 PM on November 4, 2015
I think the UK deserves to get a pass on this one given that through the idiosynchracies of international film distribution, they usually get movies months after their release in the US. The home release in the US beats the UK premiere on a regular basis.
posted by Badgermann at 12:02 PM on November 4, 2015
So many Bond villains have physical disabilities ("Eew, so creepy and weird! Look at his weird eye! What is wrong with that guy?!? Look at his sinister computerised wheelchair! etc etc")
Let's strike a blow for progress by having a disabled Bond (excluding alcoholism/sex addiction as disabilities).
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 12:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Let's strike a blow for progress by having a disabled Bond (excluding alcoholism/sex addiction as disabilities).
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 12:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Daniel Craig cannot find anything better than Bond at local Jobcentre Plus.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Bond has to be British as he works for MI6.
Except when he's Scottish (Sean Connery), or Australian (George Lazenby), or Welsh (Timothy Dalton)?
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Except when he's Scottish (Sean Connery), or Australian (George Lazenby), or Welsh (Timothy Dalton)?
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is a great comic out there called Velvet about a female British Secret Agent. She had given up field work at some point in the past and was given a secretarial position at HQ where she has been since. She finds something out and tries to get answers but can't trust anyone in her organization because some of them are in on it. Part of what makes it great is that because she appeared to be "just" a middle-aged secretary for so long, pretty much everyone underestimates her until it is too late.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
Disney/Marvel is blowing frantically on Benny Crumble's Dr. Strange contract to make sure the ink is good and dry.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
So yeah - make Bond sort of like a positional thing, a name given to the 00* agent who's the most competent, dangerous, or who has just lived the longest. They're not James Bond, they're just 'the Bond.'
Eh. I'd rather they didn't wink at the discontinuity of the actors. IMO one of the worst things in the series is the line "This never happened to the other guy."
Just ignore/reboot it. Jane Bond (or whatever the name) has always been 007, just get on with the story.
posted by rifflesby at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Eh. I'd rather they didn't wink at the discontinuity of the actors. IMO one of the worst things in the series is the line "This never happened to the other guy."
Just ignore/reboot it. Jane Bond (or whatever the name) has always been 007, just get on with the story.
posted by rifflesby at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't care if Bond is black, white, gay, whatever*, so long as there are laser saws in his watch, he drives some sort of car that turns into another vehicle, and there is a love interest with a horribly punny name.
* I don't know about female, though.
Give the women their own kick-ass 50 year character.
Why not the adventures of Moneypenney before she got injured and had to work as an assistant?
Or, how about Judi Dench's M running ops for the SIS during the Cold War?
Shoot it in memoir form, so there's lots of Dame Judi getting angry?
I'd watch the hell out of that.
posted by madajb at 12:11 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
* I don't know about female, though.
Give the women their own kick-ass 50 year character.
Why not the adventures of Moneypenney before she got injured and had to work as an assistant?
Or, how about Judi Dench's M running ops for the SIS during the Cold War?
Shoot it in memoir form, so there's lots of Dame Judi getting angry?
I'd watch the hell out of that.
posted by madajb at 12:11 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
...or Irish! I forgot Pierce Brosnan!
Basically it seems to me like the only requirements for James Bond are (1) Male, (2) White, (3) not an American accent.
posted by muddgirl at 12:11 PM on November 4, 2015
Basically it seems to me like the only requirements for James Bond are (1) Male, (2) White, (3) not an American accent.
posted by muddgirl at 12:11 PM on November 4, 2015
I would like James Bond to be played by a flatulent panda and M to be played simultaneously by two 5-year-old identical twin girls.
posted by xingcat at 12:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 12:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Except when he's Scottish (Sean Connery), or Australian (George Lazenby), or Welsh (Timothy Dalton)?
muddgirl
You're confusing yourself.
Those were actors playing him, not the character himself. The character is and always must be British. Gay or straight, male or female, white or POC, Britishness is a core, inherent part of Bond.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:19 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
muddgirl
You're confusing yourself.
Those were actors playing him, not the character himself. The character is and always must be British. Gay or straight, male or female, white or POC, Britishness is a core, inherent part of Bond.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:19 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
(Scottish and Welsh people are British.)
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
Bond is sane?
posted by gottabefunky at 12:29 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 12:29 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It needs young. Nicholas Hoult.
posted by colie at 12:31 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by colie at 12:31 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think it's very interesting that we can suggest a lesbian Bond but we still can't have a gay or bisexual male Bond
Wasn't the queer bad guy in Skyfall portrayed as an anti-Bond character, or at least as a former Bond or 00-agent? It seems like the writers are at least exploring the idea.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:34 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wasn't the queer bad guy in Skyfall portrayed as an anti-Bond character, or at least as a former Bond or 00-agent? It seems like the writers are at least exploring the idea.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:34 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
How about we split the series into two distinct series with their own canons. One series is the James Bond: series. All the films in this series have titles that start with that. James Bond: Destiny of Honor, James Bond: Treachery, James Bond: Kill Switch, whatever. This is the story, beginning in 2015, of a superspy named James Bond and his career in (and out?) of MI6. This series follows the person. There is a backstory that gets revealed over time, and an overarching continuity to all the films. Grounded in reality (though still featuring some spy gadgets and tech), with politics and intrigue and emotion playing large parts of the motivation. The next series is the 007: series. Same deal with the names. 007: Facade of Terror, 007: Infosec, 007: Don't Look Down. This series follows MI6's 007 agent, often named James Bond, but maybe Jane Bond or Jai Bond. The movies are one-off stories with no continuity between them. Pure spectacles with supervillain-esque bad guys, extreme supertech, crazy plotlines, lavish settings, the works. The films are set in a variety of times (60's, 80's, future?).
posted by Rock Steady at 12:36 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 12:36 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
The character is and always must be British. Gay or straight, white or POC, Britishness is a core, inherent part of Bond.
Sorry, not even the Britishness is essential when the adaptations are concerned. James Bond was first played by the American actor Barry Nelson as a US spy with "Combined Intelligence" in a 1954 CBS TV movie version of Casino Royale.
At what point, though, did James Bond stop being a character and become a symbol (or a cipher)? Ian Fleming's Bond - the Eton-educated gentleman and wartime commando - was already having trouble fitting in with the second half of the twentieth century in that first adventure. The actor best suited in the role - Fleming's choice to play him in the movies - was in the worst film adaptation.
At this point, Bond's kind has died out completely, so why even bother casting it in the franchise's next installment with any fidelity to the original unless it's a period piece?
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sorry, not even the Britishness is essential when the adaptations are concerned. James Bond was first played by the American actor Barry Nelson as a US spy with "Combined Intelligence" in a 1954 CBS TV movie version of Casino Royale.
At what point, though, did James Bond stop being a character and become a symbol (or a cipher)? Ian Fleming's Bond - the Eton-educated gentleman and wartime commando - was already having trouble fitting in with the second half of the twentieth century in that first adventure. The actor best suited in the role - Fleming's choice to play him in the movies - was in the worst film adaptation.
At this point, Bond's kind has died out completely, so why even bother casting it in the franchise's next installment with any fidelity to the original unless it's a period piece?
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
They should have the old Bond turn super villain, thus requiring MI6 to activate a contingency plan where they reveal that they knew it was a matter of IF not WHEN Bond would go insane and a replacement would need to be found. So they've been slowly cultivating a team of promising new "Bonds" for just an occasion.
posted by FJT at 12:38 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 12:38 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, I am all for Saif Ali Khan Bond. That would be like the Brosnan era all over again, but… more.
posted by yeolcoatl at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by yeolcoatl at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2015
whether we need Bond to be straight, young, British, or even remotely sane.
Two can play that game. How about Alexander Skarsgård as Swedish Immigrant Bond? Or Pedro Pascal as Dornish Bond? Seriously though, I could get behind Sullivan Stapleton as Australian Bond if they're not going to let Idris have it.
posted by fuse theorem at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2015
Two can play that game. How about Alexander Skarsgård as Swedish Immigrant Bond? Or Pedro Pascal as Dornish Bond? Seriously though, I could get behind Sullivan Stapleton as Australian Bond if they're not going to let Idris have it.
posted by fuse theorem at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2015
The AV Club asks not only whether we need another white guy, but whether we need Bond to be straight, young, British, or even remotely sane.
Do you want James Bond or "James Bond" or "James Bond™"? It's all in the asking, isn't it?
One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability. As if an audience can't bear to consider that—in this instance—James Bond may just be a character who's adventures are exhausted, that he isn't interesting or relevant any longer, that new stories about new characters who aren't "James Bond" need to be written. James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. Heavens, use your imagination.
Why do I find this weird? I don't know. Maybe it's a generational thing. It seems very much a post-book/post-author attitude.
The last Bond movie I saw was the first Craig movie (which I liked well enough) and the last one before that was that one in China with the Rupert Murdoch-style villain. I think the only way they'd get me in the theater for another one would be for a rigorous period piece.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Do you want James Bond or "James Bond" or "James Bond™"? It's all in the asking, isn't it?
One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability. As if an audience can't bear to consider that—in this instance—James Bond may just be a character who's adventures are exhausted, that he isn't interesting or relevant any longer, that new stories about new characters who aren't "James Bond" need to be written. James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. Heavens, use your imagination.
Why do I find this weird? I don't know. Maybe it's a generational thing. It seems very much a post-book/post-author attitude.
The last Bond movie I saw was the first Craig movie (which I liked well enough) and the last one before that was that one in China with the Rupert Murdoch-style villain. I think the only way they'd get me in the theater for another one would be for a rigorous period piece.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
See also this by Shane Thomas from the excellent Media Diversified on "What makes the quintessential Englishman?"
posted by melisande at 12:41 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by melisande at 12:41 PM on November 4, 2015
Basically it seems to me like the only requirements for James Bond are (1) Male, (2) White, (3) not an American accent.
*Puts himself forward as the first Canadian Bond*
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
*Puts himself forward as the first Canadian Bond*
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sorry, that should be "first Canadian Bond, eh".
Sorry.
Sorry everyone.
posted by nubs at 12:43 PM on November 4, 2015 [19 favorites]
Sorry.
Sorry everyone.
posted by nubs at 12:43 PM on November 4, 2015 [19 favorites]
Why not the adventures of Moneypenney before she got injured and had to work as an assistant?
So a movie based on Velvet? Sold!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
So a movie based on Velvet? Sold!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability.
Yeah, I don't get why they can't make a Bond movie that just happens to star a different character that's not straight or white or a man. They can clearly make Bond movies without Bond (Bourne) so just make the movie about someone else. If anyone could play Bond, why can't any character be the center of a Bond film?
*Puts himself forward as the first Canadian Bond*
Oh, sorry about that eh. /puts gun away.
posted by GuyZero at 12:45 PM on November 4, 2015
Yeah, I don't get why they can't make a Bond movie that just happens to star a different character that's not straight or white or a man. They can clearly make Bond movies without Bond (Bourne) so just make the movie about someone else. If anyone could play Bond, why can't any character be the center of a Bond film?
*Puts himself forward as the first Canadian Bond*
Oh, sorry about that eh. /puts gun away.
posted by GuyZero at 12:45 PM on November 4, 2015
a rigorous period piece
The 2006 iteration of OSS 117 might be the movie you're looking for, except it's a parody.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:45 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
The 2006 iteration of OSS 117 might be the movie you're looking for, except it's a parody.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:45 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
*Puts himself forward as the first Canadian Bond*
Sorry, but 'Canadian Bond' sounds like an off-brand foot ointment.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:46 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sorry, but 'Canadian Bond' sounds like an off-brand foot ointment.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:46 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
"So a movie based on Velvet? Sold!"
Why do you guys hate my wallet so much?
posted by I-baLL at 12:46 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why do you guys hate my wallet so much?
posted by I-baLL at 12:46 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyone's desire for a stereotypical white/straight/whatever Bond can die with Fleming's desire that Pussy Galore's lesbianism was cured by Bond.
Galore “only needed the right man to come along and perform the laying on of hands in order to cure her psycho-pathological malady”.posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:49 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I discovered recently that the BBC has quietly been running a Bond of its own: Toby Stephens played the role in five full-scale radio adaptations of the original novels, with the likes of David Suchet as Dr. No, Ian McKellen as Goldfinger, and Alfred Molina as Blofeld.
posted by Iridic at 12:49 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Iridic at 12:49 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
They can clearly make Bond movies without Bond (Bourne)...
Bourne movies aren't Bond movies. Bond works within the system, even when he's working against it at a given moment; Bourne is purely and completely out of the game and unwilling to get dragged back in. Bourne is more sheerly kinetic than Bond, even in the more physically aggressive Craig version. Bourne gins up versions of the gadgets that Bond is issued by Q.
There could certainly be movies in the Bond universe that don't feature straight white British male Royal Navy Commander James Bond at their center, but the Bourne movies ain't them.
posted by Etrigan at 12:51 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Bourne movies aren't Bond movies. Bond works within the system, even when he's working against it at a given moment; Bourne is purely and completely out of the game and unwilling to get dragged back in. Bourne is more sheerly kinetic than Bond, even in the more physically aggressive Craig version. Bourne gins up versions of the gadgets that Bond is issued by Q.
There could certainly be movies in the Bond universe that don't feature straight white British male Royal Navy Commander James Bond at their center, but the Bourne movies ain't them.
posted by Etrigan at 12:51 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
For years now, Bond films seem to have no real story to tell. What is Bond defending or fighting for, now that Great Britain's former empire status has been relegated to playing second-fiddle to US interests? Craig's run seems to be about brooding over that relegation, maybe (or just about brooding, in general).
I think the lack of any useful answer for that from the writers means that the movies are just set-pieces for a chain of occasionally entertaining clips of sex and violence, interspersed with advertising for luxury goods on behalf of the investors backing the production.
Beyond the aspects of spectacle and the conspicuous consumption, Craig is right that there doesn't seem to really be a whole lot that the Bond narrative has left to say. Other than the veneer of the actor's looks and mannerisms, what does it matter who they pick, so long as the actor can make sure tickets are sold, and that the luxury watches and cars get promoted with the beautiful people wrapped around them?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think the lack of any useful answer for that from the writers means that the movies are just set-pieces for a chain of occasionally entertaining clips of sex and violence, interspersed with advertising for luxury goods on behalf of the investors backing the production.
Beyond the aspects of spectacle and the conspicuous consumption, Craig is right that there doesn't seem to really be a whole lot that the Bond narrative has left to say. Other than the veneer of the actor's looks and mannerisms, what does it matter who they pick, so long as the actor can make sure tickets are sold, and that the luxury watches and cars get promoted with the beautiful people wrapped around them?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Kind of sad that we're all ok with totally reaming out a classic (and frankly, dated) movie concept in the name of equality/inclusiveness.
Coming soon - pacifist vegan Bond parachutes into N Korea where s/he convinces Kim Jong Un to go on a juice cleanse and they hug it out.
Enough already. Would someone please just write new characters and stories for today, instead of trying to shoehorn everyone into "Bond"?
posted by Artful Codger at 12:53 PM on November 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Coming soon - pacifist vegan Bond parachutes into N Korea where s/he convinces Kim Jong Un to go on a juice cleanse and they hug it out.
Enough already. Would someone please just write new characters and stories for today, instead of trying to shoehorn everyone into "Bond"?
posted by Artful Codger at 12:53 PM on November 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Your [screenwriters] were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should [make another Bond movie at all].
posted by GrapeApiary at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by GrapeApiary at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't have time to go looking for it, but Sean Connery did an interview where he said he'd like to see the James Bond character handed over to top-notch writers/directors to do an anthology of Bond of all different styles and visions. Just say to them, take it. Have fun with it.
Martin Scorsese directs Bond.
Quentin Tarantino directs Bond.
David Fincher directs Bond.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Martin Scorsese directs Bond.
Quentin Tarantino directs Bond.
David Fincher directs Bond.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
The 2006 iteration of OSS 117 might be the movie you're looking for ...
Huh. I never knew I wanted a French Our Man Flint.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Huh. I never knew I wanted a French Our Man Flint.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd love it to be a lady next time.
Gender-flipping is all the rage right now, but does this trivialize things too much? I mean sure, Bond could be a cast a woman, but would that character, written as a woman, saying something meaningful about being a woman, still be "Bond"?
M is an interesting example. It's not hard at all to imagine a woman as a head of the British secret service. There's a gender flip that makes a real difference: how does that change Bond?
Ghostbusters is another: there's nothing that requires a male presence in that film. Seeing how women would become those kind of people and react to those situations could be really interesting.
But if you genderflip Bond, would that character still be Bond, Jane Bond, or would she have to be someone else, someone who might have different stories to tell? What would the implications be for someone who had to become a government assassin as a woman rather than a man? Would she have been an SBS commando, as Bond was? How would social conventions, and her necessary rejection of them shape that character?
We do need more stores about women, no question. But I don't think it's the right thing to do to plop a woman into a man's boots and keep all the other dials the same. And I'm not sure that Bondish quintessence could, or should, survive that.
posted by bonehead at 1:06 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Gender-flipping is all the rage right now, but does this trivialize things too much? I mean sure, Bond could be a cast a woman, but would that character, written as a woman, saying something meaningful about being a woman, still be "Bond"?
M is an interesting example. It's not hard at all to imagine a woman as a head of the British secret service. There's a gender flip that makes a real difference: how does that change Bond?
Ghostbusters is another: there's nothing that requires a male presence in that film. Seeing how women would become those kind of people and react to those situations could be really interesting.
But if you genderflip Bond, would that character still be Bond, Jane Bond, or would she have to be someone else, someone who might have different stories to tell? What would the implications be for someone who had to become a government assassin as a woman rather than a man? Would she have been an SBS commando, as Bond was? How would social conventions, and her necessary rejection of them shape that character?
We do need more stores about women, no question. But I don't think it's the right thing to do to plop a woman into a man's boots and keep all the other dials the same. And I'm not sure that Bondish quintessence could, or should, survive that.
posted by bonehead at 1:06 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
(I'd much rather have a Modesty Blaze movie instead, frankly.)
posted by bonehead at 1:07 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 1:07 PM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I used to say Bond should be played by a Brit (or Irishman) but if Superman doesn't have to be played by an American, maybe an American (or any other nationality) who can do a decent accent can be Bond.
posted by bgal81 at 1:13 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by bgal81 at 1:13 PM on November 4, 2015
I'd love to see Idris Elba as Bond.
I'd also love to see Natalie Dormer. None of that 'Jane Bond' either. James Bond. What of it?
posted by a halcyon day at 1:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'd also love to see Natalie Dormer. None of that 'Jane Bond' either. James Bond. What of it?
posted by a halcyon day at 1:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I always figured Daniel Craig was the queer Bond. I mean, between Mads Mikkelsen, Javier Bardem, and now Christoph Waltz, the Craig movies seem like they're basically about Bond being stalked by his shitty, manipulative ex-boyfriends.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:17 PM on November 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:17 PM on November 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
or years now, Bond films seem to have no real story to tell. What is Bond defending or fighting for, now that Great Britain's former empire status has been relegated to playing second-fiddle to US interests?
I'm not sure why you think there's no story to tell in that
posted by Hoopo at 1:17 PM on November 4, 2015
I'm not sure why you think there's no story to tell in that
posted by Hoopo at 1:17 PM on November 4, 2015
We do need more stores about women, no question. But I don't think it's the right thing to do to plop a woman into a man's boots and keep all the other dials the same.
The problem is that the studios are willing to make Bond movies, and probably would be even if you futzed with Bond's whitemaleness. On the other hand, Salt -- one of the closest-to-Bond-movies movies with a female lead character played by one of the biggest female movie stars in the world -- had fairly comparable box office numbers to the Bond films, and a sequel has been in development hell for longer than any break between Bond movies.
If you plop a woman into this particular man's boots, it makes it a lot easier to tell a story about a woman.
posted by Etrigan at 1:21 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
The problem is that the studios are willing to make Bond movies, and probably would be even if you futzed with Bond's whitemaleness. On the other hand, Salt -- one of the closest-to-Bond-movies movies with a female lead character played by one of the biggest female movie stars in the world -- had fairly comparable box office numbers to the Bond films, and a sequel has been in development hell for longer than any break between Bond movies.
If you plop a woman into this particular man's boots, it makes it a lot easier to tell a story about a woman.
posted by Etrigan at 1:21 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
I don't know. That smells like tokenism rather than real change. Are these stories about an actual woman or just a pseudo-man in black frock?
posted by bonehead at 1:23 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by bonehead at 1:23 PM on November 4, 2015
Laurie Penny wrote a pretty fantastic dissection of Bond recently for New Stateman, which is well worth a read in this discussion.
posted by themadthinker at 1:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by themadthinker at 1:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
What would the implications be for someone who had to become a government assassin as a woman rather than a man? Would she have been an SBS commando, as Bond was? How would social conventions, and her necessary rejection of them shape that character?
For an exploration of some of that, perhaps see: Nikita.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
For an exploration of some of that, perhaps see: Nikita.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
That smells like tokenism rather than real change.
James Bond was a white male in his original incarnation because that's the only way the books would get published to a mass audience in 1950s Britain. He's always been a token of something -- why not make him one of inclusion?
posted by Etrigan at 1:27 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
James Bond was a white male in his original incarnation because that's the only way the books would get published to a mass audience in 1950s Britain. He's always been a token of something -- why not make him one of inclusion?
posted by Etrigan at 1:27 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
an exploration of some of that, perhaps see: Nikita.
That's a a great example of what I mean (or at least the French version is, imo).
posted by bonehead at 1:29 PM on November 4, 2015
That's a a great example of what I mean (or at least the French version is, imo).
posted by bonehead at 1:29 PM on November 4, 2015
James Bond was a white male in his original incarnation because that's the only way the books would get published to a mass audience in 1950s Britain.
"Original incarnation" is an odd choice of words here, as if the platonic essence of Bondism only waited to be incarnated in Fleming's character and who was only incarnated as a white guy because of 1950's Britain, but who is yet waiting to be reincarnated at some point as any number of future beings all up and down the karma scale.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Original incarnation" is an odd choice of words here, as if the platonic essence of Bondism only waited to be incarnated in Fleming's character and who was only incarnated as a white guy because of 1950's Britain, but who is yet waiting to be reincarnated at some point as any number of future beings all up and down the karma scale.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
octobersurprise, I have Tim Powers on line two for you.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:48 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:48 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thanks, I'll take it in my office.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:50 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 1:50 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Back to his roots. Ornithologist James Bond. With bad teeth. (Probably a louche seventies era joke about birds in there as well, but I'm not going for it.)
posted by BWA at 1:51 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by BWA at 1:51 PM on November 4, 2015
One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability. As if an audience can't bear to consider that—in this instance—James Bond may just be a character who's adventures are exhausted, that he isn't interesting or relevant any longer, that new stories about new characters who aren't "James Bond" need to be written. James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. Heavens, use your imagination.
Why do I find this weird? I don't know. Maybe it's a generational thing. It seems very much a post-book/post-author attitude.
Well, because James Bond means something - the character and the franchise have very specific meanings and associations, and people are interested in playing with them, and seeing how they can be reworked for a modern context.
Just for example: James Bond represents a swaggering, dominant form of male sexuality. Now, if you want a 'different kind of Bond,' you could make another secret agent character who had those traits, or you could make a secret agent character without those traits... but isn't it more interesting to play around with those traits in the context of the actual character of James Bond? Before Casino Royale came out, people freaked because Craig wasn't "tall dark and handsome" enough, so no one thought he could pull off the Sexy Dangerous Agent aspect; afterward, reviews praised that aspect of his performance largely the ways in which he departed from the other Bonds, praising his character's emotional depth and the way he himself was sexualized onscreen. And yet he was still James Bond!
Another example that interests me is the Gritty Reboot in general, which I'm plenty sick of actually - but in 50 years' time, what an interesting time capsule of this period in history the Gritty Reboot will be. It says so much about us that that's what we wanted in our heroes for a while, in contrast to what came before and will come after.
Human beings have reused characters since storytelling was invented, and we do it because we're not just making these stories up out of thin air, we are adding to a layered storytelling tradition which only becomes richer the more it's interpreted and reinterpreted over time.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Why do I find this weird? I don't know. Maybe it's a generational thing. It seems very much a post-book/post-author attitude.
Well, because James Bond means something - the character and the franchise have very specific meanings and associations, and people are interested in playing with them, and seeing how they can be reworked for a modern context.
Just for example: James Bond represents a swaggering, dominant form of male sexuality. Now, if you want a 'different kind of Bond,' you could make another secret agent character who had those traits, or you could make a secret agent character without those traits... but isn't it more interesting to play around with those traits in the context of the actual character of James Bond? Before Casino Royale came out, people freaked because Craig wasn't "tall dark and handsome" enough, so no one thought he could pull off the Sexy Dangerous Agent aspect; afterward, reviews praised that aspect of his performance largely the ways in which he departed from the other Bonds, praising his character's emotional depth and the way he himself was sexualized onscreen. And yet he was still James Bond!
Another example that interests me is the Gritty Reboot in general, which I'm plenty sick of actually - but in 50 years' time, what an interesting time capsule of this period in history the Gritty Reboot will be. It says so much about us that that's what we wanted in our heroes for a while, in contrast to what came before and will come after.
Human beings have reused characters since storytelling was invented, and we do it because we're not just making these stories up out of thin air, we are adding to a layered storytelling tradition which only becomes richer the more it's interpreted and reinterpreted over time.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
I still can't believe they made any Bond movies after Austin Powers.
posted by jetsetsc at 1:54 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by jetsetsc at 1:54 PM on November 4, 2015
They still make airplane disaster movies after Airplane. They still make horror movies after Scream.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:58 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:58 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
They can clearly make Bond movies without Bond (Bourne)
Ditto what's said above: they're different. And Salt, imo, is closer to a Bourne than anything else. That said, the next Bourne universe movie should be about Nicky Parsons. Let's just forget the Renner outing ever happened.
posted by bonehead at 2:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ditto what's said above: they're different. And Salt, imo, is closer to a Bourne than anything else. That said, the next Bourne universe movie should be about Nicky Parsons. Let's just forget the Renner outing ever happened.
posted by bonehead at 2:03 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of my favourite ideas of Bond is that he's not a great fit for the machine. How many movies have had lines about how he's getting old, how he's a dinosaur, a relic? Sure he gets the job done but when he's dead/retired they're specifically recruiting people who aren't like him because who needs that stress? They've tended to hire older actors and I like that. Idris Elba would fit that extremely well, he plays that rough-edged side better than most. Ewan McGregor would be fascinating, I'd love to see that.
The comment above about how Craig is the queerest Bond is fantastic. Absolutely, absolutely. I think Bond, because of the history, the legacy, the image, is such a perfect tool for talking about masculinity and especially toxic masculinity. Craig has talked openly about how Bond is a misogynist who no one should look up to. Keep the glamour but subvert it, show it as a bad romance.
Saying Kristen Stewart should be Bond is such a fascinating thing for me to think about. What would her Bond be? Who is Bond, even? If we put her in Goldfinger would her Bond still be Bond? She's a superb actress, I don't know if I could see her in Bond but I'd buy a ticket on opening night and see for myself. If Benedict Cumberbatch gets the role I won't watch a single one. No thanks.
posted by Neronomius at 2:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
The comment above about how Craig is the queerest Bond is fantastic. Absolutely, absolutely. I think Bond, because of the history, the legacy, the image, is such a perfect tool for talking about masculinity and especially toxic masculinity. Craig has talked openly about how Bond is a misogynist who no one should look up to. Keep the glamour but subvert it, show it as a bad romance.
Saying Kristen Stewart should be Bond is such a fascinating thing for me to think about. What would her Bond be? Who is Bond, even? If we put her in Goldfinger would her Bond still be Bond? She's a superb actress, I don't know if I could see her in Bond but I'd buy a ticket on opening night and see for myself. If Benedict Cumberbatch gets the role I won't watch a single one. No thanks.
posted by Neronomius at 2:09 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
What if instead of James Bond being a single person, he's actually an entire team, a group of multicultural spies of multiple genders, orientations, and creeds, working in solidarity. Organization B.O.N.D.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2015
It seems like part of the appeal of a gay male Bond, or a female Bond, is how that would sort of point a mirror at Bond as a character who has historically been tied up in a particular expression of masculinity, one that is worthy of critique. Maybe the original character was Fleming's sort of self-insert fanfiction of a Cold War spy but it's worth thinking about what 1950s expressions of the epitome of suave sexy danger means in 2015 or later. (Certainly, Bond was just a sort of ego ideal for me and my classmates when we were 11 year olds playing Goldeneye, and as an adult I think differently about those movies and the related material). Some people always want to change the way they feel about them and I think that explains why they would resist change, although I think that can be self-nullifying in a way).
Of course, just casting a woman in the role doesn't necessarily make the critique clear, or interesting, and obviously putting in a privileged white man (probably a straight man) into the role of Gay James Bond is different from casting a woman in the role and the choices the writers/directors/actors would determine how successful the movie is in conversation with the earlier movies in the franchise.
Similarly, you could probably think about Bond in terms of British/Western foreign policy, imperialism and end-of-empire and it might be interesting to think about a Bond who is partially a product of that, i.e, a South Asian or black Bond. But that doesn't mean casting a black actor to play Bond means the movie necessarily will address those ideas, much less in a coherent way. I don't know. You could have Idris Elba as bond and remake Moonraker and it'd probably be fun to watch but...
posted by dismas at 2:16 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Of course, just casting a woman in the role doesn't necessarily make the critique clear, or interesting, and obviously putting in a privileged white man (probably a straight man) into the role of Gay James Bond is different from casting a woman in the role and the choices the writers/directors/actors would determine how successful the movie is in conversation with the earlier movies in the franchise.
Similarly, you could probably think about Bond in terms of British/Western foreign policy, imperialism and end-of-empire and it might be interesting to think about a Bond who is partially a product of that, i.e, a South Asian or black Bond. But that doesn't mean casting a black actor to play Bond means the movie necessarily will address those ideas, much less in a coherent way. I don't know. You could have Idris Elba as bond and remake Moonraker and it'd probably be fun to watch but...
posted by dismas at 2:16 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or, I don't know, you can forget Bond and revive the xXx series with a resurrected Vin Diesel. Oh wait, it's actually happeningggggggg
posted by Apocryphon at 2:19 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 2:19 PM on November 4, 2015
what am I missing here? Why can't we keep this character, but also make a series of kick-ass spy movies about Mary Brown, CIA secret super spy who happens to be a queer woman of color with nerdy side interests?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:21 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:21 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Number 3, "an elderly version of Bond, grappling with the weight of his many years in the field and forced out of retirement for one last mission", was made into a six-part mini-series 33 years ago; it starred Alec Guinness, and it was fucking fantastic.
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 2:22 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 2:22 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
ugh "Some people always want to change" ==> "Some people don't want to change" or "some people always want to feel the same way"
posted by dismas at 2:24 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by dismas at 2:24 PM on November 4, 2015
A marginalized-person Bond would be great - contra Laurie Penny, although I think that what she says about Bond is true in large part - because a marginalized person Bond would be an excellent opportunity to explore to what degree marginalized people can be incorporated into capital and empire. To paraphrase Penny, Bond does represent toxic imperial evil and how it's tied up with white masculinity.
However, we're all post-imperial now. Which is why, I think, Bond has "no real story to tell", as a lungful of dragon says upthread - there is no "story", there's only a series of events determined by decentered, de-stated power. The Bond story that "makes sense" is a story that relies on state power being coherent and defined - even if it's vast and evil.
I also think that a marginalized-person-Bond would put some really interesting pressure on the tropes of the genre and take a lot of the pleasure out of it. (Which would be interesting.) We're all familiar, again qua Penny, with the dream-narrative in which physically strong white straight men can do anything they want with no consequences; we all know how to enjoy that narrative, even if we're not strong white straight men. We all know how to identify with those guys. What happens when it's Kristin Stewart being just as much of a misogynist, imperialist asshole as Daniel Craig? What happens when it's Saif Ali Khan, and all of the sudden the white portion of the audience doesn't fall into the dream-fantasy trance because having a brown guy shoot people and be an asshole is threatening instead of fun?
A marginalized person Bond story would also have to be about the mechanics of capital as it incorporates the new Bond. It would map nicely onto the tech industry, where certain women, certain people of color, certain queers get integrated and the machine protects them, but only at the cost of defining other women, people of color and queers as the Bad Other.
You could do a marginalized person Bond story as Against Bond, if you wanted - pacifist vegan Bond. I'd make the anti-Bond a spy for the other side - all along, we would discover, Bond has really been passing information to the commies, to Anonymous, to union organizers, to undocumented immigrants. Anti-Bond's asshole imperialist persona is both Bond and also what Bond has to do to get the information, and that tension could make really great, fake-tough sentimental movie.
Of course, I think you should do a marginalized person Bond story as pro-Bond, because I think that story would describe our time and concerns really well.
posted by Frowner at 2:24 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
However, we're all post-imperial now. Which is why, I think, Bond has "no real story to tell", as a lungful of dragon says upthread - there is no "story", there's only a series of events determined by decentered, de-stated power. The Bond story that "makes sense" is a story that relies on state power being coherent and defined - even if it's vast and evil.
I also think that a marginalized-person-Bond would put some really interesting pressure on the tropes of the genre and take a lot of the pleasure out of it. (Which would be interesting.) We're all familiar, again qua Penny, with the dream-narrative in which physically strong white straight men can do anything they want with no consequences; we all know how to enjoy that narrative, even if we're not strong white straight men. We all know how to identify with those guys. What happens when it's Kristin Stewart being just as much of a misogynist, imperialist asshole as Daniel Craig? What happens when it's Saif Ali Khan, and all of the sudden the white portion of the audience doesn't fall into the dream-fantasy trance because having a brown guy shoot people and be an asshole is threatening instead of fun?
A marginalized person Bond story would also have to be about the mechanics of capital as it incorporates the new Bond. It would map nicely onto the tech industry, where certain women, certain people of color, certain queers get integrated and the machine protects them, but only at the cost of defining other women, people of color and queers as the Bad Other.
You could do a marginalized person Bond story as Against Bond, if you wanted - pacifist vegan Bond. I'd make the anti-Bond a spy for the other side - all along, we would discover, Bond has really been passing information to the commies, to Anonymous, to union organizers, to undocumented immigrants. Anti-Bond's asshole imperialist persona is both Bond and also what Bond has to do to get the information, and that tension could make really great, fake-tough sentimental movie.
Of course, I think you should do a marginalized person Bond story as pro-Bond, because I think that story would describe our time and concerns really well.
posted by Frowner at 2:24 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
HERE IS TODAY'S MOST GENIUS IDEA THAT YOU WILL SEE TODAY:
Peter Capaldi IS Sweary James Bond. Fuckety-bye.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:27 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Peter Capaldi IS Sweary James Bond. Fuckety-bye.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:27 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Why can't we have all of it? A reimagined Bond AND like Mary Brown Secret Super CIA Spy? The fact that we think we have to pick only one is part of the problem.
posted by muddgirl at 2:32 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 2:32 PM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just make a live-action Archer and be done with it.
posted by um at 2:35 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by um at 2:35 PM on November 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
The ideal post-scarcity future should be that we all have the time and ability to create ten thousand different versions of Bond in accordance with our personal worldviews/narratives.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:37 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 2:37 PM on November 4, 2015
The ideal post-scarcity future should be that we all have the time and ability to create ten thousand different versions of Bond in accordance with our personal worldviews/narratives.
I believe the word you're looking for there is "fanfiction".
posted by Tknophobia at 2:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I believe the word you're looking for there is "fanfiction".
posted by Tknophobia at 2:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm talking about actual movies, not NaNoWriMo.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:43 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 2:43 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
They've made 24 Bond movies so far, so I don't see why making dozens more are unthinkable.
posted by muddgirl at 2:46 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by muddgirl at 2:46 PM on November 4, 2015
muddgirl: "Except when he's Scottish (Sean Connery), or Australian (George Lazenby), or Welsh (Timothy Dalton)?"
You are confusing the character with the actor.
octobersurprise: " James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. "
This is where we should go. James Bond is 007. Let's see a few movies about 009, 004 or 0017. Those stories would be a lot better than a female or queer James Bond because they wouldn't have the baggage of misogynist James Bond.
Etrigan: "If you plop a woman into this particular man's boots, it makes it a lot easier to tell a story about a woman."
Maybe from a money sense the first time anyways. But I think it would be a dis service to equality. A proportion of the fandom is going to constantly rant about the worst Bond ever and they'd probably be right in a female James Bond is going to either change to much of the "character" or is just going to be a woman playing a man.
I'm reminded of most of the guys who pen and paper role play women; who happen to behave exactly like men except they flirt with the stable boy instead of the barmaid.
TL;DR: Reimagining Bond is a suckers game. Let's get some new stories featuring not single white english speaking men rather than trying to tell stories about gay Bond.
posted by Mitheral at 2:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
You are confusing the character with the actor.
octobersurprise: " James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. "
This is where we should go. James Bond is 007. Let's see a few movies about 009, 004 or 0017. Those stories would be a lot better than a female or queer James Bond because they wouldn't have the baggage of misogynist James Bond.
Etrigan: "If you plop a woman into this particular man's boots, it makes it a lot easier to tell a story about a woman."
Maybe from a money sense the first time anyways. But I think it would be a dis service to equality. A proportion of the fandom is going to constantly rant about the worst Bond ever and they'd probably be right in a female James Bond is going to either change to much of the "character" or is just going to be a woman playing a man.
I'm reminded of most of the guys who pen and paper role play women; who happen to behave exactly like men except they flirt with the stable boy instead of the barmaid.
TL;DR: Reimagining Bond is a suckers game. Let's get some new stories featuring not single white english speaking men rather than trying to tell stories about gay Bond.
posted by Mitheral at 2:52 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
There already was a Jane Bond, Agent 0069. You might remember (OK, I remember) her from such classics as Thunderballs and The Man With The Golden Rod (NSFW).
posted by sixpack at 2:54 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by sixpack at 2:54 PM on November 4, 2015
Let's get some new stories featuring not single white english speaking men rather than trying to tell stories about gay Bond.
I would love that; I think the very real difficulty that everything is up against is that the major movie studios/media production groups are interested in franchises these days, instead of original universes/settings/stories. See also Star Trek; Star Wars; Marvel. Likely the best way forward is to try to spin off a series about a different 00*, as mentioned above.
posted by nubs at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2015
I would love that; I think the very real difficulty that everything is up against is that the major movie studios/media production groups are interested in franchises these days, instead of original universes/settings/stories. See also Star Trek; Star Wars; Marvel. Likely the best way forward is to try to spin off a series about a different 00*, as mentioned above.
posted by nubs at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2015
You are confusing the character with the actor.
So Sean Connery's Bond is by definition British, despite the thick Scottish Accent? Then along the same lines, people who are ethnically Indian, or ethnically Chinese, or born and raised American can be "British", too. I don't see why this is somehow a great barrier to telling a good post-colonial Bond story. I think a good modern post-colonial Bond story could be better with a non-white Commonwealth actor.
posted by muddgirl at 3:09 PM on November 4, 2015
So Sean Connery's Bond is by definition British, despite the thick Scottish Accent? Then along the same lines, people who are ethnically Indian, or ethnically Chinese, or born and raised American can be "British", too. I don't see why this is somehow a great barrier to telling a good post-colonial Bond story. I think a good modern post-colonial Bond story could be better with a non-white Commonwealth actor.
posted by muddgirl at 3:09 PM on November 4, 2015
I got no problem with a black/Chinese/Indian actor playing Bond. But the character couldn't be Chinese, he should be a British citizen.
posted by Mitheral at 3:21 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 3:21 PM on November 4, 2015
Muddgirl: Scottish people (and welsh people) are British. Connery is both Scottish and British. I would personally say any British citizen is British, regardless of ethnicity. We could probably find some Brits with different opinions on the latter, but not really on the former because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are just as much parts of Britain as England is.
posted by biffa at 3:24 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 3:24 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
He could be Turkish, or Vietnamese
What a wondrous vision of a copyright-less world.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:26 PM on November 4, 2015
What a wondrous vision of a copyright-less world.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:26 PM on November 4, 2015
obviously it should be aishwarya rai
posted by poffin boffin at 3:29 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 3:29 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know Daniel Craig wants out, but I hope they can at least get him to show up to the next movie long enough to film the regeneration sequence.
posted by ckape at 3:33 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by ckape at 3:33 PM on November 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ian Flemming's Bond was British and Male.
If you want a female spy try Jane Blonde or just Jane as in the cartoon strip.
posted by Burn_IT at 3:39 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want a female spy try Jane Blonde or just Jane as in the cartoon strip.
posted by Burn_IT at 3:39 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I still can't believe they made any Bond movies after Austin Powers.
I can't believe they made Austin Powers movies after Our Man Flynt and In Like Flynt
posted by Hoopo at 3:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I can't believe they made Austin Powers movies after Our Man Flynt and In Like Flynt
posted by Hoopo at 3:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just make a live-action Archer and be done with it.
YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Two kids in a trenchcoat. That's all I'm gonna say. (Makes "call me" gesture with thumb and pinkie.)
posted by No-sword at 4:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 4:25 PM on November 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
If they don’t want to change the archetype, put that Bond where he belongs, back in a historical context. In the books it is mentioned that he served in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, but not too many details are given, so that’s a great place to start for a historical reboot. The Great War, showing Bond doing the usual bizarre and interesting scenes that builds him and the new universe into the the legend. Several of his adversaries, including Mr. Big, Dr. No, Drax, and even his big bad adversary, Blofeld himself, all got their start during the war, so there’s plenty of backstory to either pull from or, given the way most movies are produced today, ignore. Retro has been popular since there was something to be retro about, WWII is always a popular period, and with most of the men off fighting, there would be lots of excuses for Bond Girls.
posted by Blackanvil at 4:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Blackanvil at 4:40 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
what am I missing here? Why can't we keep this character, but also make a series of kick-ass spy movies about Mary Brown, CIA secret super spy who happens to be a queer woman of color with nerdy side interests?
Because no one ever got fired forbuying IBM greenlighting another God damnned Bond movie.
posted by sideshow at 4:42 PM on November 4, 2015
Because no one ever got fired for
posted by sideshow at 4:42 PM on November 4, 2015
Please adapt No One Lives Forever for movies and also make some sequel games kthnx
posted by Apocryphon at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
What happens when it's Saif Ali Khan, and all of the sudden the white portion of the audience doesn't fall into the dream-fantasy trance because having a brown guy shoot people and be an asshole is threatening instead of fun?
I read this and flashed immediately to the scene in Casino Royale where Daniel Craig coldly executes Sebatien Foucan... Have Idris Elba (or anyone of color) do that to a white guy at a majority-white country's embassy. That would break the Internet in half right bloody there.
posted by aureliobuendia at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I read this and flashed immediately to the scene in Casino Royale where Daniel Craig coldly executes Sebatien Foucan... Have Idris Elba (or anyone of color) do that to a white guy at a majority-white country's embassy. That would break the Internet in half right bloody there.
posted by aureliobuendia at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
A choice for spirit of the times would be Robert Pattinson. He's got that weird "Man Who Fell To Earth" distance.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 5:04 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 5:04 PM on November 4, 2015
I would like James Bond to be played by a flatulent panda and M to be played simultaneously by two 5-year-old identical twin girls.
"My name is Bond, Mothra Bond."
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:34 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
"My name is Bond, Mothra Bond."
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:34 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Great War, showing Bond doing the usual bizarre and interesting scenes that builds him and the new universe into the the legend.
Bond served in World War II. The Great War was World War I. It only got the name because nobody thought there would be more than one...
posted by McCoy Pauley at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2015
Bond served in World War II. The Great War was World War I. It only got the name because nobody thought there would be more than one...
posted by McCoy Pauley at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2015
M to be played simultaneously by two 5-year-old identical twin girls.
Quantico spoilers!
posted by Apocryphon at 5:47 PM on November 4, 2015
Quantico spoilers!
posted by Apocryphon at 5:47 PM on November 4, 2015
obligatory, re: bond/bourne :P
also btw, i thought kingsman was kinda fun!
posted by kliuless at 5:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
also btw, i thought kingsman was kinda fun!
posted by kliuless at 5:55 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
as i recall it was campy
gritty modesty blaise reboot
well, maybe true-to-the-source-material modesty blaise reboot
posted by dismas at 6:28 PM on November 4, 2015
gritty modesty blaise reboot
well, maybe true-to-the-source-material modesty blaise reboot
posted by dismas at 6:28 PM on November 4, 2015
- For reals I never got what the Bond series was about until I watched Archer.
- Like, I used to tell people that my favorite Bond movie was Casino Royale.
- no, not that one. the earlier one. the one with Woody Allen and Peter Sellers
- The first time I saw a Bond movie after that time I marathoned all of Archer — can't remember the title, but it's the recent one that starts with a train fight sequence that ends with Bond accidentally shooting the character I'm just going to go ahead and call Lana — suddenly a light went on over my head. "Oh," I thought. "I get it now. James Bond is a dickhead."
- okay since we're talking about alternate Bonds, the stuff upthread about how one of the core features of the Bond series is bling — fancy cars, fancy clothes, fancy watches, fancy guns, fancy everything — got me thinking:
- Working class Bond.
- hell, maybe even Bolshevik Bond, fighting against (possibly infiltrating?) MI6 on the orders of the secret All-Britain Soviet Central Executive Committee.
- played by Billy Bragg.
In the books it is mentioned that he served in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, but not too many details are given, so that’s a great place to start for a historical reboot. The Great War, showing Bond doing the usual bizarre and interesting scenes that builds him and the new universe into the the legend.
interesting scenes?
James Bond: Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash
posted by ennui.bz at 7:00 PM on November 4, 2015
interesting scenes?
James Bond: Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash
posted by ennui.bz at 7:00 PM on November 4, 2015
Working class Bond.
Haven't watched it myself, but I believe Kingsman was basically that?
posted by rifflesby at 7:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Haven't watched it myself, but I believe Kingsman was basically that?
posted by rifflesby at 7:14 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Have Idris Elba (or anyone of color) do that to a white guy at a majority-white country's embassy. That would break the Internet in half right bloody there.
Why stop there? One problem with Bond is that no matter who plays him, he's inextricably tied up with the baggage of British imperialism and the abuses of the British intelligence services. In real life he'd be going after people like Edward Snowden or something. Hell, he even worked with the Mujahideen once. Why have someone like that as your hero?
How about a movie where Bond is in some foreign country doing secret agent things in the pre-credit sequence as usual, and the scene ends with Idris Elba (or whoever) showing up as a completely different secret agent, working for whatever country Bond is fucking with this time, and he shoots Bond right in the head. Cue opening credits. I'm saying, have Bond be the guy who gets casually killed in cold blood.
posted by hyperbolic at 7:23 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why stop there? One problem with Bond is that no matter who plays him, he's inextricably tied up with the baggage of British imperialism and the abuses of the British intelligence services. In real life he'd be going after people like Edward Snowden or something. Hell, he even worked with the Mujahideen once. Why have someone like that as your hero?
How about a movie where Bond is in some foreign country doing secret agent things in the pre-credit sequence as usual, and the scene ends with Idris Elba (or whoever) showing up as a completely different secret agent, working for whatever country Bond is fucking with this time, and he shoots Bond right in the head. Cue opening credits. I'm saying, have Bond be the guy who gets casually killed in cold blood.
posted by hyperbolic at 7:23 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
In the Service of the Bolivarian Revolution
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:31 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:31 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd like to see a Bond movie with Jason Statham. Not playing Bond, but another 00 agent that gets fed up and goes rogue, whom Bond has to chase down before he can sell off the secrets or whatever. He'd know what Bond looks like, know all the tricks, he'd have a bunch of Q-Division gear left over from the mission he walked out on...
posted by rifflesby at 7:50 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by rifflesby at 7:50 PM on November 4, 2015
...and perhaps the film ends with him escaping, and there's your new spin-off series.
posted by rifflesby at 7:52 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by rifflesby at 7:52 PM on November 4, 2015
Haven't watched it myself, but I believe Kingsman was basically that?
Don't watch it with any expectation that they are going to do anything with that concept.
posted by nubs at 8:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't watch it with any expectation that they are going to do anything with that concept.
posted by nubs at 8:44 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
hell, maybe even Bolshevik Bond, fighting against (possibly infiltrating?) MI6 on the orders of the secret All-Britain Soviet Central Executive Committee.
That might strike a little too close to home for comfort.
Of course, Philby was the inspiration for both Grahame Greene (as Harry Lime) and John LeCarre (in Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy). Bond, with clear enemies, as sexy as Philby was nebbish, and always, always loyal, might even be seen as a reaction to him as well.
posted by bonehead at 8:58 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
That might strike a little too close to home for comfort.
Of course, Philby was the inspiration for both Grahame Greene (as Harry Lime) and John LeCarre (in Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy). Bond, with clear enemies, as sexy as Philby was nebbish, and always, always loyal, might even be seen as a reaction to him as well.
posted by bonehead at 8:58 PM on November 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Working class Bond would be Len Deighton's nameless hero.
posted by emf at 9:16 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by emf at 9:16 PM on November 4, 2015
...another 00 agent that gets fed up and goes rogue, whom Bond has to chase down before he can sell off the secrets or whatever. He'd know what Bond looks like, know all the tricks, he'd have a bunch of Q-Division gear left over from the mission he walked out on...
Isn't this basically GoldenEye?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:23 PM on November 4, 2015
Isn't this basically GoldenEye?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:23 PM on November 4, 2015
oh right, technically Pierce Brosnan didn't know he was chasing 006 but I did because, c'mon, killing off Sean Bean in the first ten minutes?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:26 PM on November 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Don't watch it with any expectation that they are going to do anything with that concept.
how much screen time does the fat little pug get because that is the only thing that is interesting to me about that movie
posted by poffin boffin at 9:45 PM on November 4, 2015
how much screen time does the fat little pug get because that is the only thing that is interesting to me about that movie
posted by poffin boffin at 9:45 PM on November 4, 2015
I have wanted Idris Elba, or at least a black man, or at least Tom Hardy for James Bond for so so so so long. I am going to be seriously disappointed if the campaign to get him cast succeeds in opening up some horrible discussion on what it means To Be Bond that ends up getting a Kristen Stewart cast. Please, blockbuster industrial complex, pander to me just this once!
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 9:50 PM on November 4, 2015
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 9:50 PM on November 4, 2015
Should James Bond be female or black? No. James Bond is white, male and British. You want a female Bond, make a Joanna Dark (or whoever) movie. You want an American Bond? Make a Jason Bourne movie.
posted by salmacis at 2:24 AM on November 5, 2015
posted by salmacis at 2:24 AM on November 5, 2015
...another 00 agent that gets fed up and goes rogue, whom Bond has to chase down before he can sell off the secrets or whatever. He'd know what Bond looks like, know all the tricks, he'd have a bunch of Q-Division gear left over from the mission he walked out on...
Isn't this basically GoldenEye?
It could have been, but 006 wasn't really any different from the standard Bond villain -- complicated plan, super-weapon, ridiculous minions... The closest thing to a difference was that he could fight Bond hand-to-hand, but that certainly wasn't unique.
posted by Etrigan at 2:49 AM on November 5, 2015
Isn't this basically GoldenEye?
It could have been, but 006 wasn't really any different from the standard Bond villain -- complicated plan, super-weapon, ridiculous minions... The closest thing to a difference was that he could fight Bond hand-to-hand, but that certainly wasn't unique.
posted by Etrigan at 2:49 AM on November 5, 2015
Please adapt No One Lives Forever for movies and also make some sequel games kthnx
The revisiting of this game deserves an FPP in and of itself. It's a complete classic that, like beyond good and evil, will be completely forgotten in like 5 or 10 years. Although even that got an HD rerelease and at least some acknowledgement it ever existed.
They both got some sort of game of the year sort of award and then just rotted. Ugh.
posted by emptythought at 2:54 AM on November 5, 2015
The revisiting of this game deserves an FPP in and of itself. It's a complete classic that, like beyond good and evil, will be completely forgotten in like 5 or 10 years. Although even that got an HD rerelease and at least some acknowledgement it ever existed.
They both got some sort of game of the year sort of award and then just rotted. Ugh.
posted by emptythought at 2:54 AM on November 5, 2015
So Sean Connery's Bond is by definition British, despite the thick Scottish Accent?
Well, yes. In the same way that Roger Moore is by definition British, despite the English accent. Do you know the definition of "British"? I mean, Connery might rather not be British, but he is.
(It's a bit like questioning whether someone is by definition American, despite the thick Texan accent.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, yes. In the same way that Roger Moore is by definition British, despite the English accent. Do you know the definition of "British"? I mean, Connery might rather not be British, but he is.
(It's a bit like questioning whether someone is by definition American, despite the thick Texan accent.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't have a problem with them casting Idris Elba, by the way. But I'm not looking forward to the endless whinging about how the producers are teh evile racists!!! if they don't.
posted by Grangousier at 3:07 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 3:07 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd like to maybe see an origin story. Not so much a franchise reboot as a "how did SIS recruit Bond?" story, how Bond was forged.
Not an Annakin Bond type affair ("It's like all your favourite characters, but they're kids" - George Lucas) but something that tracks back to the hardship of being the "poor" kid at school, military service (Bond is clearly ex-UKSF since SIS just rents ex-military rather than develop in-house), how SIS found Bond and how someone who should justifiably hate British society (they will all have been *total* dicks at school) ends up being a defender of the status quo.
I'm also no longer a fan of the brash Bond "style". Reading lots about spies and the like has pretty much ruined cinematic Bond for me. It's too much spectacle and silliness and I think I prefer my spies to be a little more realistic, rumpled overcoats, death on a rainy evening in Belgrade.
Bizarrely, despite all that, I thought the Bourne Trilogy was excellent (that was probably just it being a long-needed breath of fresh air).
posted by longbaugh at 5:16 AM on November 5, 2015
Not an Annakin Bond type affair ("It's like all your favourite characters, but they're kids" - George Lucas) but something that tracks back to the hardship of being the "poor" kid at school, military service (Bond is clearly ex-UKSF since SIS just rents ex-military rather than develop in-house), how SIS found Bond and how someone who should justifiably hate British society (they will all have been *total* dicks at school) ends up being a defender of the status quo.
I'm also no longer a fan of the brash Bond "style". Reading lots about spies and the like has pretty much ruined cinematic Bond for me. It's too much spectacle and silliness and I think I prefer my spies to be a little more realistic, rumpled overcoats, death on a rainy evening in Belgrade.
Bizarrely, despite all that, I thought the Bourne Trilogy was excellent (that was probably just it being a long-needed breath of fresh air).
posted by longbaugh at 5:16 AM on November 5, 2015
To be fair... Connery did play a Russian submarine captain somewhat effectively. So I'd wager that a well written role is less about casting and more about immersion.
Besides, I think there are better things that can be done with the franchise. How about the story of a relatively ordinary kid growing up in an orphanage and having to endure all of the shit that entails BEFORE they become 007. (Besides, for all I know the name "James Bond" gets assigned to you at the same time the role of 007 does. That's why there's a different guy doing the same line of work every few years.)
Or how about a Get Smart/Mission Impossible/Person of Interest styled version where Bond really is a horrible misogynist that offends almost everybody he comes into contact with. But the afore mentioned Team B.O.N.D. does all of the behind the scenes stuff that actually creates Bond's deus ex machina.
Although... that would probably be a better TV show to run against any of the Marvel franchise shows. Maybe HBO could pick it up to retain the grittiness AND kill the Bond character every once in a while so that the ever-changing actor thing starts to make sense.
posted by Blue_Villain at 7:19 AM on November 5, 2015
Besides, I think there are better things that can be done with the franchise. How about the story of a relatively ordinary kid growing up in an orphanage and having to endure all of the shit that entails BEFORE they become 007. (Besides, for all I know the name "James Bond" gets assigned to you at the same time the role of 007 does. That's why there's a different guy doing the same line of work every few years.)
Or how about a Get Smart/Mission Impossible/Person of Interest styled version where Bond really is a horrible misogynist that offends almost everybody he comes into contact with. But the afore mentioned Team B.O.N.D. does all of the behind the scenes stuff that actually creates Bond's deus ex machina.
Although... that would probably be a better TV show to run against any of the Marvel franchise shows. Maybe HBO could pick it up to retain the grittiness AND kill the Bond character every once in a while so that the ever-changing actor thing starts to make sense.
posted by Blue_Villain at 7:19 AM on November 5, 2015
oh right, technically Pierce Brosnan didn't know he was chasing 006 but I did because, c'mon, killing off Sean Bean in the first ten minutes?
I feel like you might not be all that familiar with Sean Bean's body of work
posted by Hoopo at 9:15 AM on November 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
I feel like you might not be all that familiar with Sean Bean's body of work
posted by Hoopo at 9:15 AM on November 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
how SIS found Bond
"By Strength And Guile" Bond?
James Bond Probably Has Brain Damage
James Bond Is A Terrible Employee
A great Bond needs a great villain, the best are funhouse mirrors of Bond himself.
Best James Bond villains, ranked
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:38 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
"By Strength And Guile" Bond?
James Bond Probably Has Brain Damage
James Bond Is A Terrible Employee
A great Bond needs a great villain, the best are funhouse mirrors of Bond himself.
Best James Bond villains, ranked
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:38 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best James Bond villains, ranked
Jaws at 18? GTFO.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Jaws at 18? GTFO.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Jar-jar Bond.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:23 AM on November 5, 2015
posted by Artful Codger at 10:23 AM on November 5, 2015
“Saying Kristen Stewart should be Bond is such a fascinating thing for me to think about”
Bond…..
*blinks and looks coy and sleepy for 3 minutes 32 seconds*
….J- uh - James Bond.
I got two words for people who want a female James Bond or a queer James Bond:
Tilda. Swinton.
(Or any James Bond. I think she can play anything at this point)
Watch: “Orlando.” I know she’s a woman, but is Bond supposed to be a guy? A girl? Leave it ambiguous.
(Also she was a great Elric of Melnibone if you’ve seen “Only Lovers Left Alive” (and Tom Hiddleston as, Morpheus apparently)
I’d like to see a more realistic Bond in any case. Yeah, rumpled raincoat.
I mean ‘Look here I’m a spy! That’s why I square off before I initiate a fight! *BLAM! BLAM! KABOOM! POW! - car chase - car chase – car chase – collateral damage, etc*’
Not so much all thriller. I mean, people don’t want to think too deeply at a Bond film.
But at least some note that the novels make a (small) effort towards Bond not being a physical/emotional superhuman.
The book “On Her Majesty's Secret Service” has Bond really exhausted after a long ski chase, he’s been in fear of his life for a long time (being shot at, avalanche, freezing cold, going ‘oh god I’m going to die’ the whole time), and he’s in no shape to take on the SPECTRE goons when they’re looking for him. Tracy (his future wife) shows up and basically saves his ass while he’s weeping – realistically from exhaustion and emotional strain – in her car.
The elements are fantastic, and the romance is abridged but the characters are pretty real, as opposed to genetic enhancements, etc. (To be fair, normal humans can make a bug out bag, run flat out for a mile, have situational awareness, learn Systema and/or do Parkour)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy film played down the certain subtle elements from the book, but Prideaux sneaking up and killing Haydon with a scoped rifle from ambush rather than try to have sharks kill him or going gunslinger with a short barrel .32 made sense.
As did the sense of betrayal, the emotional pain, the fear, the stark reality of the world. You can have that and still have a cool ski chase down a mountain. And people not soiling their pants after being shot. All that movie slows down stuff. But with less cardboard cutout action hero.
Although Kristen Stewart would be perfect for a very realistic Bond.
*types on keyboard*
*looks sleepy*
Huh....
*more typing*
posted by Smedleyman at 10:38 AM on November 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Bond…..
*blinks and looks coy and sleepy for 3 minutes 32 seconds*
….J- uh - James Bond.
I got two words for people who want a female James Bond or a queer James Bond:
Tilda. Swinton.
(Or any James Bond. I think she can play anything at this point)
Watch: “Orlando.” I know she’s a woman, but is Bond supposed to be a guy? A girl? Leave it ambiguous.
(Also she was a great Elric of Melnibone if you’ve seen “Only Lovers Left Alive” (and Tom Hiddleston as, Morpheus apparently)
I’d like to see a more realistic Bond in any case. Yeah, rumpled raincoat.
I mean ‘Look here I’m a spy! That’s why I square off before I initiate a fight! *BLAM! BLAM! KABOOM! POW! - car chase - car chase – car chase – collateral damage, etc*’
Not so much all thriller. I mean, people don’t want to think too deeply at a Bond film.
But at least some note that the novels make a (small) effort towards Bond not being a physical/emotional superhuman.
The book “On Her Majesty's Secret Service” has Bond really exhausted after a long ski chase, he’s been in fear of his life for a long time (being shot at, avalanche, freezing cold, going ‘oh god I’m going to die’ the whole time), and he’s in no shape to take on the SPECTRE goons when they’re looking for him. Tracy (his future wife) shows up and basically saves his ass while he’s weeping – realistically from exhaustion and emotional strain – in her car.
The elements are fantastic, and the romance is abridged but the characters are pretty real, as opposed to genetic enhancements, etc. (To be fair, normal humans can make a bug out bag, run flat out for a mile, have situational awareness, learn Systema and/or do Parkour)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy film played down the certain subtle elements from the book, but Prideaux sneaking up and killing Haydon with a scoped rifle from ambush rather than try to have sharks kill him or going gunslinger with a short barrel .32 made sense.
As did the sense of betrayal, the emotional pain, the fear, the stark reality of the world. You can have that and still have a cool ski chase down a mountain. And people not soiling their pants after being shot. All that movie slows down stuff. But with less cardboard cutout action hero.
Although Kristen Stewart would be perfect for a very realistic Bond.
*types on keyboard*
*looks sleepy*
Huh....
*more typing*
posted by Smedleyman at 10:38 AM on November 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Tilda. Swinton.
I'm against this mostly only because it would interfere with her playing Steven Strange.
posted by bonehead at 11:16 AM on November 5, 2015
I'm against this mostly only because it would interfere with her playing Steven Strange.
posted by bonehead at 11:16 AM on November 5, 2015
One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability. As if an audience can't bear to consider that—in this instance—James Bond may just be a character who's adventures are exhausted, that he isn't interesting or relevant any longer, that new stories about new characters who aren't "James Bond" need to be written. James Bond isn't the only secret agent out there. Heavens, use your imagination.
One of the things I really liked about Skyfall (sans ending, sadly) is how it confronts the outdated nature of its premise head-on. Not just that James Bond as a character or as a profession makes less and less sense in modern times, but that MI6 as a whole makes less and less sense in modern times. And the movie never convincingly presents an argument that refutes this, I think by design. The only thing that ruins this reading of the movie, unfortunately, is the ending. But until then, it's a nice thing to contemplate: a Bond movie that tries to convince you of its illegitimacy.
The revisiting of this game deserves an FPP in and of itself. It's a complete classic that, like beyond good and evil, will be completely forgotten in like 5 or 10 years. Although even that got an HD rerelease and at least some acknowledgement it ever existed.
They both got some sort of game of the year sort of award and then just rotted. Ugh.
Much of this is because the rights to No One Lives Forever are either stuck in limbo or owned by a company that's not even sure they have the rights and doesn't care to do anything with them even if they did. Which I guess are kind of the same thing, in the end.
posted by chrominance at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the things I really liked about Skyfall (sans ending, sadly) is how it confronts the outdated nature of its premise head-on. Not just that James Bond as a character or as a profession makes less and less sense in modern times, but that MI6 as a whole makes less and less sense in modern times. And the movie never convincingly presents an argument that refutes this, I think by design. The only thing that ruins this reading of the movie, unfortunately, is the ending. But until then, it's a nice thing to contemplate: a Bond movie that tries to convince you of its illegitimacy.
The revisiting of this game deserves an FPP in and of itself. It's a complete classic that, like beyond good and evil, will be completely forgotten in like 5 or 10 years. Although even that got an HD rerelease and at least some acknowledgement it ever existed.
They both got some sort of game of the year sort of award and then just rotted. Ugh.
Much of this is because the rights to No One Lives Forever are either stuck in limbo or owned by a company that's not even sure they have the rights and doesn't care to do anything with them even if they did. Which I guess are kind of the same thing, in the end.
posted by chrominance at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm re-reading The Honourable Schoolboy for the nth time and, thanks to this thread, it's striking how much it reads like what you'd get if you commissioned a Bond novel from Le Carré. Jerry Westerby is a suave, urbane womaniser from an aristocratic background; he travels from one exciting, picturesque location to the next; and he's never afraid to settle a disagreement with his fists or a gun when a quip won't suffice. Hell, you even get an M, a Big Bad, and a Bond girl into the bargain! Of course, it's still Le Carré, so the whole thing is pretty unrelentingly unhappy, but still...
I was disappointed with how the Tinker, Tailor film dealt with the scene involving Prideaux at Sarratt because I felt that the book's account was the only way that Prideaux could have ended such an intimate friendship, but that's a whinge for another day.
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 6:25 AM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was disappointed with how the Tinker, Tailor film dealt with the scene involving Prideaux at Sarratt because I felt that the book's account was the only way that Prideaux could have ended such an intimate friendship, but that's a whinge for another day.
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 6:25 AM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
But until then, it's a nice thing to contemplate: a Bond movie that tries to convince you of its illegitimacy.
I really like the hints of that back in Goldeneye, when Sean Bean mocks James Bond for being an alcoholic womanizer who hides his true merciless murderer nature:
"I might as well ask you if all those vodka martinis ever silence the screams of all the men you've killed... or if you find forgiveness in the arms of all those willing women for all the dead ones you failed to protect."
On one hand, more soul-searching in the critique of the character of Bond would be nice. On another, I also like how the '90s nature of Goldeneye made it so versatile, able to touch upon such subjects by glossing over them. (You're a sexist, misogynist dinosaur, a Cold War relic! Who has to fight your former best friend! Whose family was made up of little known minority with a problematic WWII to Cold War history! BDSM femme fatales! Cyber-criminals! Eurocopter!) Skyfall finished what Goldeneye started.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:56 PM on November 6, 2015
I really like the hints of that back in Goldeneye, when Sean Bean mocks James Bond for being an alcoholic womanizer who hides his true merciless murderer nature:
"I might as well ask you if all those vodka martinis ever silence the screams of all the men you've killed... or if you find forgiveness in the arms of all those willing women for all the dead ones you failed to protect."
On one hand, more soul-searching in the critique of the character of Bond would be nice. On another, I also like how the '90s nature of Goldeneye made it so versatile, able to touch upon such subjects by glossing over them. (You're a sexist, misogynist dinosaur, a Cold War relic! Who has to fight your former best friend! Whose family was made up of little known minority with a problematic WWII to Cold War history! BDSM femme fatales! Cyber-criminals! Eurocopter!) Skyfall finished what Goldeneye started.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:56 PM on November 6, 2015
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posted by I-baLL at 11:47 AM on November 4, 2015 [4 favorites]