Is this a joke? It feels like a joke.
November 9, 2015 7:35 AM   Subscribe

Slate: Meet Our New Dear Prudence Columnist: After a glorious decade, Emily Yoffe is passing the advice-giving pen to Mallory Ortberg.
I’m thrilled to announce that Mallory Ortberg will assume the Prudie mantle beginning next Monday. Mallory's website, The Toast, is one you should be reading if you don’t already because it’s home to some of the smartest, sliest writing on the Internet, whether the subject is the (17) tropes of Southern gothic literature, the most adorable dogs in the history of Western art, or how Internet commenters talk about bras. (Her work at the Toast will continue even as she takes on this new role.) Mallory is one of the most distinctive and exciting writers working today: wise, big-hearted, and devilishly funny. She is also a devoted Prudie fan, and a close student of the column. I can’t wait to see where she takes it next.
Ortberg herself provides a short FAQ on the decision: I Am Dear Prudence Now Also In Addition To The Toast
posted by zombieflanders (75 comments total) 29 users marked this as a favorite
 
What a perfectly proper and appropriate announcement.
posted by sammyo at 7:39 AM on November 9, 2015


I really like Emily Yoffe as Prudence (though not as much as I like Carolyn Hax as Carolyn Hax). I also really like Mallory Ortberg. I think Mallory Ortberg will be a delightful Prudence.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:44 AM on November 9, 2015


Surprisingly, changing your advice columnist for a better one has no effect, or even a negative effect!
posted by thelonius at 7:44 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Holy shit. I guess I'm going to be a regular advice column reader now. Didn't see that coming.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:44 AM on November 9, 2015 [8 favorites]


THANK GOODNESS. I loved Margo Howard's DP columns, but something about Emily Yoffe's take on them rubbed me the wrong way almost every week. (Until I stopped reading them altogether.)

I'm thrilled about Mallory Ortberg taking over, even if it means my GenX has missed Slate's advice-column boat.
posted by kimberussell at 7:45 AM on November 9, 2015 [17 favorites]


Haha what.

Wait, didn’t you JUST write a thing about Dear Prudence like, a month ago? Is that why they gave this to you?
Yes! I did! I do not know if that was something Slate took into consideration.

Tags on the thing she wrote include "no of course i'm not going to get into her weird rape essays this is a light-hearted joke about advice columns".
posted by ocular shenanigans at 7:46 AM on November 9, 2015 [12 favorites]


oh my god
posted by ghharr at 7:46 AM on November 9, 2015


And good riddance to Yoffe. Her neo-temperance views, among other things, lead her to give some rather questionable advice.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:47 AM on November 9, 2015 [30 favorites]


Yoffe always seemed to me like the kind of person who thinks that the first idea they have about anything is the last word
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on November 9, 2015 [20 favorites]


This isn't a joke? But whose advice columns will I hate-read now?

I'm curious what serious writing from Mallory is like.
posted by jeather at 7:50 AM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well, I guess this is one way to get my wife reading The Toast.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:51 AM on November 9, 2015


At last, one more non-Mallory Ortberg writing outlet falls! Her forces march onward!
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:55 AM on November 9, 2015 [47 favorites]


But will there be images of women who are tired of this shit taken from classical art?
posted by emjaybee at 7:55 AM on November 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


Yoffe is just the goddamn worst. The handwringing from the Slate commenters is hilarious.
posted by kmz at 7:58 AM on November 9, 2015 [12 favorites]


She could do this for ten years and I'd never figure out whether she was offering earnest advice or satirizing the entire idea of advice columns.
posted by straight at 7:59 AM on November 9, 2015 [40 favorites]


I'm still irritated about that time Yoffe equated bisexuality with plushophilia and BDSM, essentially saying it was a private kink instead of a sexual identity.
posted by almostmanda at 8:02 AM on November 9, 2015 [18 favorites]


Signs You’re About To Write A Dear Prudence Letter

You have been going on monthlong cruises with your least favorite friend every fall for the last eighteen years – but this is the year your mother has decided to stop paying for it. Which of her cousins should you disinvite to your wedding?
OK yes, this is true. I listen to the Awesome Etiquette Podcast and it really feels to me like there is a Class Of People who think that Social Rules Exist. I am not one of those people, but I listen to the podcast because I want to have more empathy and treat people better. However, much of the gain I get is co-mingled with frustration over how anyone could give two figs if you sent thank-you notes, or were cordial enough to the visiting dignitary, or what have you.
posted by rebent at 8:03 AM on November 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


Yeah, I was bummed when Margo Howard stopped being Prudence, and I never really took to Emily Yoffe. Most of the letters she posts are so incredibly lurid that it strains credulity. I mean, I love a wacky interpersonal situation as much as the next person, but it was so obvious that Yoffe's Prudie was just being constantly trolled because she would without fail print the most shocking letters she received.

Ortberg can just respond with some snarky medieval art.
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:03 AM on November 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


This news is all around good.
posted by Gelatin at 8:07 AM on November 9, 2015


One thing I will say for Yoffe: I had an AskMe once and also sent it to Dear Prudence. She didn't publish the letter, but she did answer back in about two minutes telling me my sibling and his fiance were "narcissistic whack jobs" who needed to "cut the crap." So that was cool.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:08 AM on November 9, 2015 [39 favorites]


...it really feels to me like there is a Class Of People who think that Social Rules Exist.

Maybe all the people who live in Guess Culture? And when they can't figure out the right answer to guess, they write to advice columnists?
posted by clawsoon at 8:10 AM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ortberg can just respond with some snarky medieval art.

Classic!

Well, I'll miss Emily Yoffe, but I for one welcome our new Ortberg overlord.
posted by todayandtomorrow at 8:13 AM on November 9, 2015


I liked Emily Yoffe's "Human Guinea Pig" series. Metal Detecting: The World's Worst Hobby.
posted by hwyengr at 8:16 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well, I'll miss Emily Yoffe, but I for one welcome our new Ortberg overlord.

If we must have overlords, having more diverse overlords is a net plus.
posted by puddledork at 8:19 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've never been a big fan of Emily Yoffe's Prudence. I haven't read that much of Mallory Ortberg's work, but my friends are always posting her pieces to Twitter/FB, so this might be a good thing. Yay!

Also, I really like Carolyn Hax, too. But, my favorite advice columnist is Heather Havrilesky. I've been reading her stuff since the Suck days and then the advice she doled out on her own rabbitblog
posted by bluefly at 8:25 AM on November 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


For those who aren't aware, we once had a MeTa thread that was basically "Mallory Ortberg: So Awesome That We Need To Not Have a Daily Mallory Ortberg FPP".

(We were wrong!)
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:36 AM on November 9, 2015 [20 favorites]


...it really feels to me like there is a Class Of People who think that Social Rules Exist.

Maybe all the people who live in Guess Culture? And when they can't figure out the right answer to guess, they write to advice columnists?


Add to that the people who love to stew over perceived slights and all the associated mysteries of etiquette. When I'm really honest with myself, it's the main thing that leads me to write an Ask here. I've been stewing and I want other people to stew. I'm fascinated with my own problem and I want to spread it around, and to have some validation that I'm not insane/unreasonable is nice, too.

I imagine this is what leads a person to write into an advice column, with a bonus of One Authoritative Semi-Famous Advice-Giver acknowledging you and publicly agreeing with you and/or telling you to cut the crap. Coquette, née Coke Talk, is appealing is exactly this way--everyone writes in to be told STFU and DTMFA by her, and it (probably) feels sooooo goooood.
posted by witchen at 8:38 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


I listen to the Awesome Etiquette Podcast and it really feels to me like there is a Class Of People who think that Social Rules Exist. I am not one of those people

See, everybody thinks that, but then you hear about the bee cake, or the kid whose parents hold him over the trash can to poop, or any number of other social faux pas, and you think "What is wrong with these people?!"

Then you realize that, of course Social Rules exist, because we're social animals. You've just been so immersed in them that they've become completely invisible to you.

Until someone violates one, of course.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:43 AM on November 9, 2015 [30 favorites]


Now I feel sad about the cake.
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on November 9, 2015 [16 favorites]


For those who aren't aware, we once had a MeTa thread that was basically "Mallory Ortberg: So Awesome That We Need To Not Have a Daily Mallory Ortberg FPP".

(We were wrong!)


We were right, but this is exceptional enough to qualify for a FPP. And I look forward to seeing what a Mallory Ortberg advice column looks like!
posted by Shmuel510 at 9:01 AM on November 9, 2015


I hated Yoffe so much I almost paid to get through the Canadian Paywall to get my daily dose of bile. Now I'll have a much more positive reason to get around that thing. Well done, Slate, you fiendish clickbaiter.
posted by Freyja at 9:04 AM on November 9, 2015


wait wait wait wait what

what

is this for real

is this a real thing is this actually fucking happening Slate you're not just yanking my chain are you

this is real??

oh my god

OH MY GOD

MALLORY

TELL ME HOW TO LIVE
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:07 AM on November 9, 2015 [26 favorites]


i am so excited! but also sort of sad, because now where will i go for my advice column hate reading?
posted by nadawi at 9:13 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


When I saw the post about this from The Toast on Facebook I seriously said OH SHIT out loud at my desk, drawing attention to the fact that I was not working but in fact horsing around on company time and resources and now I'm in trouble, tra la la, sort of a little bit worth it
posted by palomar at 9:14 AM on November 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


Definitely my heart leapt and then I had the grouchy thought "FUCKING APRIL FOOLS I HATE THE INTERNET" then remembered it was November 9th and maybe this was true.

But yeah who can rec an advice column to hate-read because I think many of us on this thread are going to miss hate-reading DP.
posted by town of cats at 9:26 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I liked Margo Howard but was ambivalent about Emily Yoffe. That said, I'm looking forward to the change. Mallory Ortberg absolutely loves Dear Prudence so it should be interesting to see how she handles being Dear Prudence.
posted by tommasz at 9:26 AM on November 9, 2015


I'm feeling mixed about this. I'm chagrined to admit that I'm a little burned out on Ortberg (in fact, I posted one of the two simultaneous MeTa posts that Pope Guilty refers to). I really loved her writing, but now as her posts pop up in my RSS reader, they all seem to be some variant on Dirtbag this or Western Art that or Canonical Literature the other thing. I enjoyed it all at first, but now I can't make myself click through because it's like, oh, another one of those?

To be fair, if I did click through, I'd probably still find them funny. But it's starting to feel like a shtick, and I think she's an awesome writer who is too talented to devolve into shtickery, so I guess I'm protesting a little bit?

All that said, this is my favorite thing she's ever written, and it makes me hopeful that she can knock the Prudence thing out of the park and get out of the (sorry!) rut.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:47 AM on November 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


Mallory is mostly known for the schticky stuff (the Art History, the Dirtbags), but she writes in a more serious, or even less jokey mode, she is quite engaging. Her explainer on the Eucharist is both accurate and witty, for example. And I learned quite a bit from her essay on sexual assault. So I expect this new gig as Prudie will be a success.
posted by Cash4Lead at 10:08 AM on November 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm really excited about this news: I read a lot of advice columns, I like Ortberg as much as the next person, and I don't have anything nice to say about Yoffee's tenure.
posted by Kwine at 10:13 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


See, everybody thinks that, but then you hear about the bee cake,

Thank you for finding that! It's been haunting me and I've been trying all sorts of search terms to find it again with no effect...
posted by Hypatia at 10:25 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm super glad that it helped you, but on the other hand, I wish I never had to be reminded of the bee cake because it makes me angry and then makes me feel bad anew every single time I'm reminded of it. It's an Ask Me rollercoaster.

Speaking of people who have horrible trouble reading social cues, I hope the audience who sends letters to Dear Prudence doesn't change too much with a new Prudie. I don't want to say that I need to hear what Mallory Ortberg would say to some of the weirder letters, but I want it very, very, much.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:30 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


it really feels to me like there is a Class Of People who think that Social Rules Exist. I am not one of those people

I am honestly dying to know what this means!

Very excited about this news. Even Dear Abby seemed to be getting more progressive than Prudence lately (she had a pretty decent column last week about how to deal with accidentally misgendering someone).
posted by chaiminda at 10:33 AM on November 9, 2015


Aaaah nice. Except that the first thing I would want to ask her is "Do you know wtf is happening over at The Hairpin, I mean yay Edith but what's going on?" and I already know her answer.

But seriously. The Hairpin. What.
posted by rewil at 10:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


I've been wary of Mallory Ortberg ubiquity for a while, especially since I think she has a few joke categories that she runs variations on over and over. But if this is a chance for her to tackle some serious (or at least less Ortbergian) writing then good on her! She's clearly talented and insightful and a good fit for the column.
posted by naju at 10:42 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Anybody who's tired of the Art History, etc, needs to dive deep into the Children's Stories Made Horrific series. The recent Curious George one was... hoo boy.
posted by kmz at 11:00 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


Mallory is mostly known for the schticky stuff (the Art History, the Dirtbags), but she writes in a more serious, or even less jokey mode, she is quite engaging. Her explainer on the Eucharist is both accurate and witty, for example. And I learned quite a bit from her essay on sexual assault. So I expect this new gig as Prudie will be a success.

After reading that essay about sexual assault may I please retract my "haha how will we know if she's serious" comment?

That is some wise moral thinking there. If Ortberg were a priest, she'd be the type I would seek out to hear my confessions and take seriously her recommendations for amendment of life.
posted by straight at 11:01 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


But whose advice columns will I hate-read now?

Here’s that bad advice you were hoping for? (Previously.) It’s not so much hating the advice as hating the smug condescension in the letter writers’ questions themselves. Still: Satisfyingly snarky.
posted by miles per flower at 11:15 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


If Ortberg were a priest

speaking of - the convert series
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay, I get that everybody's saying Ortberg is great, but I will miss Yoffe. A lot.
posted by BlahLaLa at 11:56 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


the kid whose parents hold him over the trash can to poop

Excuse me but if this was an actual askme to which you have failed to link then I regret to inform you that you are hereby On Notice.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:13 PM on November 9, 2015 [11 favorites]


I assume Yoffe is retiring to spend more time with her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Little Lord Spiteleroy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:46 PM on November 9, 2015


Excuse me but if this was an actual askme to which you have failed to link then I regret to inform you that you are hereby On Notice.

Yeah, no, it's more of a Chinese thing.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:08 PM on November 9, 2015


I KNOW I've seen it irl and been like "well it seems pretty efficient i guess"

i was just hoping for an askme poo brawl
posted by poffin boffin at 1:12 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean yay Mallory Ortberg and everything, but I probably would have paid CASH MONEY to read Dear Coquette's advice to some of the people who write to DP.
posted by floweringjudas at 1:13 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


At the time I stopped reading Dear Prudence, it was because Yoffe seemed to be painfully out of touch with anything like the real world, and also because she claimed she didn't run anything that she thought was fake... which meant she was either lying when she said that or incredibly credulous even by advice columnist standards. Not just the one about the incest marriage thing, which was deeply creepy, but in general. It felt like Yoffe didn't understand the internet well enough to have the "oh yeah, that happened" bell that goes off. Not that I think every letter was fake, but there were too many that felt like someone was trying too hard to concoct the perfect story to get it published.
posted by Sequence at 1:45 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Can I just be the angry old curmudgeon that says, "She's only 28! What does she know?"
posted by amro at 2:15 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


At the time I stopped reading Dear Prudence, it was because Yoffe seemed to be painfully out of touch with anything like the real world, and also because she claimed she didn't run anything that she thought was fake...

Ortberg's current position, in successive tweets:
So MY STRONG OPINION is that who can tell what letters are fake/real and why does it matter?

Like, no one wants to read an advice column where half the answers are "This seems fake. I'm not answering that."

So I'm going to operate on BLITHE ASSUMPTIONS OF GOOD FAITH and cast down judgments from an iron throne
posted by Shmuel510 at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2015 [14 favorites]


Give us back Cary Tennis!

(Even though I know he wouldn't want the job. And yes, I know the difference between Slate and Salon.)
posted by Jahaza at 3:18 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm still upset that Cary Tennis replaced Garrison Keillor. Something I now realise happened around the time Mallory Ortberg started middle school. The olds, I feel it.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 3:25 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


And .... now she has two of my dream jobs. I guess I should be writing to her for career advice!
posted by areaperson at 5:14 PM on November 9, 2015


Okay, I get that everybody's saying Ortberg is great, but I will miss Yoffe. A lot.

Me too.
posted by Otherwise at 5:15 PM on November 9, 2015


The recent Curious George one was... hoo boy.

The sad part is, that's just a copy/paste of the actual book.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:47 PM on November 9, 2015


So MY STRONG OPINION is that who can tell what letters are fake/real and why does it matter?

Not that she's ever going to see this, but it matters to me because I need to at least maintain suspension of disbelief. I am not entertained by reading a woman writing serious replies to questions written by bored people to sound as outrageous as possible, in particular because the fake questions are usually ones that are written to play to a certain view of how the world works. They only get assumed to be true because they rely on you believing, deep down, that women do reliably go out of their minds when planning their weddings. That everybody hates their in-laws. That gay men have no sexual morals whatsoever. Whatever. If you believe that about gay men, then the idea that two male twins who happened to be gay would be sleeping with each other and thinking about telling their family--it confirms all your internal prejudices. It's probably not real. By erring on the side of treating it like it's real, you're putting that in front of every single reader whose internal prejudices say that gay men will sleep with literally anybody, and implicitly telling them that, look, here's evidence that they're right. Here's evidence that women are irrational and impossible to reason with when they're under stress! Whatever.

And then Yoffe always claimed that follow-up messages or other letters totally proved these things to be true, like there isn't a whole internet full of people who are happy to make things up. It just being made up tends to make the whole advice column thing feel a bit dull. The fact that the made-up nature of it is shoring up the prejudices of every gross person in the world who reads Dear Prudence is why they shouldn't see the light of day. I have more than once heard people actually cite things they got as email forwards as reasons why they have a problem with gays or with Mexicans or whatever. I don't need one more thing where we pretend that fictional stories are real in a way that convinces bigots that they're justified.
posted by Sequence at 6:09 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I totally get why people would not like Emily Yoffe as Dear Prudence, but I actually have to say I've been reading her column (both the live chats and the Thursday letters) for like, I don't even know. Maybe 7 years? Sure, it was mostly a combination of hate reading and rubber necking at the crazy letter writers, but I definitely had an initial "Noooooo!" reaction when I saw that she was stepping down.

Actually, my response went something like this:

"Ugh, Slate will probably pick someone who is super bland and boring and the letters will be dull and what the hell will I look forward to every Monday/Tuesday/Thursday and--"

*reads that Mallory Ortberg is taking over*

"Okay, this could actually be pretty awesome."

Still, even though Emily Yoffe did have some pretty regressive views about certain things, I've been amusing myself by reading her comments for years now, so I am actually kind of sad to see her go. Also, I hate change.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:12 PM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


That gay men have no sexual morals whatsoever.
the idea that two male twins who happened to be gay would be sleeping with each other


Honest question - what's immoral about that?
posted by HiroProtagonist at 8:13 PM on November 9, 2015


I am not entertained by reading a woman writing serious replies to questions written by bored people to sound as outrageous as possible, in particular because the fake questions are usually ones that are written to play to a certain view of how the world works... If you believe that about gay men, then the idea that two male twins who happened to be gay would be sleeping with each other and thinking about telling their family--it confirms all your internal prejudices.

I agree that it's really shitty when that happens, and I have seen some cases of that in Dear Prudie, but I think a decent portion of the letters that get called fakes are the ones that pretty clearly seem to be references to TV shows, movies, songs, etc. Then there are those letters that just seem so bizarre that it's hard to believe people actually exist like that, but I'm 100% okay with those being included because first of all, some people just are that bizarre/crazy/unhinged and also, it's entertaining.

As far as the twincest letter, I mean, maybe I'm way too gullible, but based on the original letter and their follow up, I really don't think it was fake, and I don't feel like it was written in a way to reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men, especially in the context of their follow up.

I have definitely come across letters where I felt like they were written in a way to reinforce negative stereotypes about women/minorities/LGBTQ folks, and those really suck. The good news is I imagine Mallory Ortberg will be pretty good at spotting those types of letters, so I doubt those will get posted.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:20 PM on November 9, 2015


The Monday, Tuesday and Thursday Slate comment parties are what get me through my work week. I have to stifle my laughter in my cube while the usual suspects go to town riffing on the letters and Emily's advice. It honestly feels like a community akin to metafilter - the same colorful characters every week. Not sure if this new person will be able to bring everyone together like that. If not, I will really really miss it.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:25 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Okay, I feel like this is probably the appropriate place to post a few of the most infamous Dear Prudence letters from Emily Yoffe's tenure:

My girlfriend spends hours curled up on a towel nest (second letter on that page)*

Would you save the only copy of all the works of Shakespeare or a puppy from a burning building?

What do you do when you catch your landlord having sex with a dog?

Girlfriend "coaches" us during sex

Should I give my new girlfriend my deceased wife's "gently used" vibrator?
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:37 PM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


Also since apparently I've decided to turn this FPP into a "Best of Emily Yoffe" thread I just want to mention some of her actually pretty great Slate contributions outside of Dear Prudie.

First, I'll always remember or really great article about what children owe their abusive parents. (tl;dr: basically nothing.)

Also, for several years Emily Yoffe did this amazing "Human Guinea Pig" column where she tried out things like vacationing at a nudist camp, historical re-enactments, working as a "patient" for med students doing their boards, etc.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:24 PM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


re: alternative hate-reading: I asked friends a couple of days ago and was informed that The Advice Goddess is a suitable replacement advice-column hate-read. I haven't delved into the archives yet so I can't vouch for whether it will hit the spot but I offer it in case it does.
posted by Stacey at 7:03 AM on November 10, 2015


re: alternative hate-reading: I asked friends a couple of days ago and was informed that The Advice Goddess is a suitable replacement advice-column hate-read. I haven't delved into the archives yet so I can't vouch for whether it will hit the spot but I offer it in case it does.

I hate-read her all the time!!!! Soooooo much evolutionary psychology . . .
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:54 AM on November 10, 2015


> The Advice Goddess is a suitable replacemen

I already hate the name!
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:39 AM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]


Her first column is up! I think she did good.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:52 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


omg i absolutely love every single thing about her first column!
posted by nadawi at 7:08 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Jezebel illustrates why Yoffe was so problematic with a dissection of her polemic on The Hunting Ground.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:44 AM on December 4, 2015


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