Burr, your grievance is legitimate.
November 19, 2015 7:09 AM   Subscribe

We’ll never have Paris here in New York. But we could have . . . if not for Aaron Burr.
Alexander Hamilton, the short-tempered protean creator of the Coast Guard, founder of the New York Post, would be proud that 250 years later it is still publishing articles destroying the reputation of Aaron Burr, sir.

A bonus sexual biography of Aaron Burr:
She, poor girl, had but just received the letter written by Burr, and had hurried to the appointed place, only to find her "devoted lover" administering comfort and consulation consolation to a rival beauty, with all the zeal and vigor of which he was capable.
Finding himself fairly detected, and that his duplicity must become manifest to both of the young ladies, Burr finished his business, and, starting up, said to Angelina:
"Come, my dear, now it's your turn! Lie right down!
posted by jeather (123 comments total) 35 users marked this as a favorite
 
You are the worst, Burr.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 AM on November 19, 2015 [43 favorites]


Burr's list of crimes includes Hamilton's death, the creation of the filibuster, and the career of Michael Bay.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:16 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Didja hear the news about good old General Mercer?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:18 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Dying is easy, young man, urban planning is harder.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:24 AM on November 19, 2015 [31 favorites]


I'm no fan of high modernism but the NYC grid brings legibility to the city, and I'm no fan of Burr but if Mangin's plan would have produced anything like the nightmare that is Washington DC's diagonal streets slashing across the grid to clogged circles we are well rid of it.

So I guess I'm glad Burr was in the room where this happened.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:27 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]


I'm not sure what the problem is, though. NYCs grid may be utilitarian, but NYC itself is genuinely an attractive city - even Alain de Botton agrees with me on that.
posted by mightygodking at 7:30 AM on November 19, 2015


I was going to do this as an FPP, but I'll just put it here instead.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]


It could have been Paris, but not having the grid system probably would have meant that New York wouldn't have become the world economic powerhouse that it did, with all that entailed. It would have been a much lesser city.

Besides, if New York had become like Paris, where would all those French tourists go now, hmm?
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:34 AM on November 19, 2015


Look how London's street plan being essentially a scribble drawn by spiders held it back...
posted by Artw at 7:51 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


One of my favorite descriptions of the Post is "the New York Post was founded by Aexander Hamilton to give him a venue to publically talk shit about the other Founding Fathers. Little has changed in the intervening centuries."

Nice to see quite HOW little, though.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:00 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]


Something just blew my mind. In season 4 of veep Hugh Laurie's character asks to be Treasury Secretary as well as veep. This implies he is Hamilton. So as an analog Selina is Aaron Burr....
posted by Bistle at 8:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe Burr should have shot him in the mouth, that would have shut him up.
posted by bgal81 at 8:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


As I understand it, that "sexual biography" is more like "spurious fanfiction." I'm still giving copies to my friends for Christmas, though.
posted by redsparkler at 8:10 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


Burr's list of crimes includes Hamilton's death, the creation of the filibuster, and the career of Michael Bay.


And a con job called the Manhattan Company, founded to build Manhattan's sanitation system, never used to that end, turned into a slush fund, and now one of the components of today's JP Morgan bank.
posted by ocschwar at 8:14 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


Well, Hamilton will always be adored by the things he creates.
posted by TwoStride at 8:23 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]


The bio (RPF) just proves that Burr is reliable with the LADIES.
posted by jeather at 8:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


The grid is great and did to a large degree create the city of New York, but has two problems:

1) They didn't include alleys, which means that massive amounts of garbage are piled on the sidewalk.

2) Crosstown blocks west of 5th Ave are entirely too long (and if the original plan had been followed, east of 5th Ave, too.)
posted by Automocar at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2015


They didn't include alleys, which means that massive amounts of garbage are piled on the sidewalk.

I was just in NYC for the first time as an adult a few weeks back and the lack of alleys was so strange to this Chicago-dweller's eyes.
posted by protocoach at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2015


Look how London's street plan being essentially a scribble drawn by spiders held it back...

Economic centre + Erie Canal + grid layout = New York.
Economic centre + Erie Canal + Paris layout = Buffalo.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:59 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Um, isn't most of Manhattan south of 14th Street decidedly NOT on a grid?

Less seriously speaking: Paris is for people who like to walk around wearing a sandwich board. New York is for Getting Someplace Quickly. I don't know how you could possibly confuse the two.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 9:08 AM on November 19, 2015


Now that the Hamilton-Burr grudge has essentially the lowest possible stakes, both parties being dead and all and their families not engaging in a blood feud, I think keeping the grudge alive is fucking delightful. I hope there's always someone at the NY Post who's willing to drag Aaron Burr at the slightest provocation in honor of the Post's founder. What better way to honor Hamilton's legacy other than to continue to shit talk his long dead enemies? (I for one am doing my part by hating on Thomas Jefferson FOR LIFE.)
posted by yasaman at 9:17 AM on November 19, 2015 [29 favorites]


Here's a better image of the Mangin plan: hi-res black and white. From this blog post, which has a bunch of other maps of proposed plans for New York.

I think Washington DC has the most interesting urban plan from this era. It feels very much like Haussmann's Paris with these oversized boulevards cutting across the rest of the city at awkward angles. But L'Enfant planned for a regular square grid underneath the boulevards whereas Haussmann had to contend with the existing traditional European city.
posted by Nelson at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2015


Whatever, guys! Burr is the best. Smile more! Wait for it! Watch the afterbirth of a nation and figure out ways to make it work for you.

Leslie Odom Jr., please come sing to me at night.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:33 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]


How is ColdChef not already in this thread?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


When I worked in travel, our trainer waxed rhapsodic over the grid system, and honestly it does seem really clever. Maybe I'll feel differently should I ever make it to NYC, but I always thought it was a bright idea, possibly not executed to its best potential but eh, I figure they were working with what they had.

Didn't know it was Aaron Burr, sir, who made it happen. And neither did Lin-Manuel Miranda, though he's a fan of the result.
posted by angeline at 10:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm glad New York is a grid. Even if it means that I get turned around easily. (I learned to navigate in Boston, which involves maintaining the vaguely correct direction and waiting until you see a familiar street.) Because otherwise, where would Salt Lake City and Portland, OR have to crib from?
posted by Hactar at 10:06 AM on November 19, 2015


The Post sends me a copy every day
Giving Rupert another voice outside the beltway
He's an Aussie guy, a racist
He wants us to know we're all doomed (boom!)
Uses his press, he's a skillful manipulist
Until every shred of dignity's entombed

The Post always discriminates
Between the sinners
And the saints
It rants and it rants and it rants
And we keep reading anyway
And if there's a reason it still survives
When so many other papers have died
Then I'm willing to wait for it
I'm willing to wait for it
posted by zachlipton at 10:10 AM on November 19, 2015 [16 favorites]


Geniuses, lower your voices.
posted by prefpara at 10:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]


TIL who to blame for the New York Post.
posted by Splunge at 10:30 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Look how London's street plan being essentially a scribble drawn by spiders held it back..

The Deep Spiders are capable of a great many things, and are not easily held back. What they want to succeed, generally speaking, will succeed. Even to this day no Londoner willingly speaks of them, for to utter their name is to banish yourself from the Tube for a year and a day. Venture down before your appointed time and you'll not be heard from again.
posted by aramaic at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like this is a safe space to tell this story since anyone who is gone all the way down this thread must have a least a passing tolerance for references to Hamilton, the musical.

Last night, I was summoned to the kitchen where my dude was making dinner because on the radio, Marketplace was doing a story about Hamilton; it was a fairly standard piece about its popularity, how people are suddenly interested in him in various historical locations around the city, and the grant from Rockefeller Foundation bringing kids to the show. It was very dry and news reporty, but I still ended up tearing up quietly before I left the kitchen.

Later, as we were eating dinner, my dude asked me how I felt about Hamilton being removed from the $10 bill now that he was my historical boyfriend. I told him I was still okay with it, though I wish Eliza Hamilton could be on it.

Me:"She founded the first private orphanage in New York City after he died and Hamilton was an orphan too and it is still around as a..."
Him: "Are you crying again?"
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [42 favorites]


MCMikeNamera, unlike yourself, I think we should keep Hamilton on the $10 bill (side note: is there a worthwhile petition I can sign?). I've done my part by including a rendering of the current $10 in my design for an informational healthcare flier at work.
posted by redsparkler at 11:08 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Act 2 always wrecks me, but nothing, and I mean nothing, prepares you for Eliza in "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story" live.

Also:
What a time at the @GrahamWindham luncheon today. When the kids (from ELIZA'S ORGANIZATION) sang "Eliza, you have done enough."
I mean...


(And... now I'm crying at work. Again.)

I haven't found a video of that part, but there is video of Lin and Phillipa singing That Would Be Enough at the Graham Windham luncheon.
posted by kmz at 11:08 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]


On a lighter note, Alexander 'National Disaster' Hamilton, a texts based modern Hamilton AU.
posted by kmz at 11:10 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


GRID4LYFE
posted by ckape at 11:10 AM on November 19, 2015


The Hamilteam has an idea about the $10.
posted by rewil at 11:11 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


I haven't found a video of that part, but there is video of Lin and Phillipa singing That Would Be Enough at the Graham Windham luncheon.


Absolutely WRECKED. There's something about them singing that song not in costume that hit me hard.

As for the $10 bill question, if I'm being totally honest, I'm not really okay with removing Hamilton from it, but I do think we should put women on a lot of money, and would much rather it be Andrew Jackson who loses his spot. Maybe we can have a special $51 bill for Hamilton. DID YOU KNOW HE WROTE THE OTHER 51?
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]


MCMikeNamera, unlike yourself, I think we should keep Hamilton on the $10 bill (side note: is there a worthwhile petition I can sign?). I've done my part by including a rendering of the current $10 in my design for an informational healthcare flier at work.

Keep Hamilton on the $10, kick Andrew Jackson's dumb ass off the $20, replace him with almost literally any woman who has ever lived.
posted by protocoach at 11:21 AM on November 19, 2015 [28 favorites]


Damn, hivemind at work here. Good candidates to replace genocidal racist Andrew Jackson: Ida Wells, Susan Anthony, Harriet Tubman.
posted by protocoach at 11:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I love all of you nerds SO FUCKING MUCH right now.
posted by tzikeh at 11:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]


Come for the Hamiltunes, stay for the FUCK ANDREW JACKSON FOREVER.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:44 AM on November 19, 2015 [27 favorites]


I love all of you nerds SO FUCKING MUCH right now.

non stop.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:51 AM on November 19, 2015 [14 favorites]


Guns and horses giddyup!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Another shot made in the ongoing Hamilton: Gryffindor or Slytherin wars.
posted by jeather at 11:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


jeather - That there can even be disagreement about Hamilton's house affiliation proves how horoscope-like the whole notion of the sorting hat is and how it can be twisted to anything you want it to mean.

Hamilton is obviously the biggest Slytherin since Salazar! Relentless ambition! Cunning in pursuit of wealth, power, and fame! Arrogance and a tendency to want to centralize authority in strong institutions (ideally ones he could control)! Abandons his erstwhile French friends when it is in his country's interest to do so! If he's not 100% green then (as they say on the tumblrs) I just can't even.

I admit his characterization in Hamilton can maybe be twisted to the Gryffindor thing given that the play mostly overlooks the reality that the Reynolds affair was already being widely discussed in the press and in other pamphlets before Hamilton decided to make the best of a bad situation and publish his own screed acknowledging the affair (a cunning PR move, if not totally successful).

Slytherin!
posted by Wretch729 at 12:35 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


The Sorting Hat Chats split the difference because everyone can have two houses. Not everyone does -- they accurately call Washington Huff/Huff, but give Hamilton both Slytherin (WHY he does things) and Gryffindor (HOW).
posted by jeather at 12:42 PM on November 19, 2015


Also the $10 bill with FLOTUS that rewil linked to is cute, but by US law and custom people on currency have to be dead, and that's not a nice thing to wish on someone. I am totally on board with saving Hamilton (who do you keep on your money if not the person who founded your treasury anyway?) and booting Jackson in favor of a woman. I'd vote for Tubman or maybe Mother Jones.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:43 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is my favorite thread of all time, you are all the best.

I say, ADD Eliza to the 10! Both Hamiltons! AND THEN ALSO kick Jackson off the 20 and put a lady on, b/c come on.
posted by leesh at 12:45 PM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]


I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I'll fave any and all comments that hate on Andrew Jackson, because he is just the worst.
posted by protocoach at 12:46 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


jeather - Oh I read their explanation, I just say it's nonsense. Hamilton was a Slytherin, his why and his how and all his everything were Slytherin. To think otherwise is to invent a different Hamilton or to refuse to accept that Slytherin methods can be used in the service of noble ends.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:46 PM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'll shut up for a bit after this but kmz I am delighted to learn via your link that there are over 160 Hamilton fanfics on AO3. Those beautiful nerds.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:49 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jackson is the worst, but his acting Secretary of State before Van Buren was not.

Because that was Alex and Eliza's third son, James Alexander Hamilton. Thank you for dropping the knowledge, Ham4Ham.
posted by rewil at 1:00 PM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


....and really, hollerer and cholera is the best slant rhyme.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:01 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


I was there for that!! We stood for like an hour to get our spot but it was totally worth it.
posted by kmz at 1:04 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think Hamilton is a total Slytherin, but if you look at how they define secondaries, he is more Gryffindor. (They do have good Slytherins -- Finnick from Hunger Games, Lorelei Gilmore, Lilly Kane, and Veronica Mars has a Slytherin secondary -- probably more, I can't remember them all.)
posted by jeather at 1:11 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


There will probably be a lot more Hamilton fic to look forward to come Christmas, Wretch729. The Yuletide gift fic exchange goes live then, and Hamilton was the most requested and offered fandom.

Also, weighing in on the perpetual sorting debate, I think Hamilton would be like Harry Potter: could be in Slytherin, but chooses Gryffindor. Also, let's be real, Alexander "talked for six hours, the Convention was listless!" Hamilton would have been ready and willing to argue with the Sorting Hat for however long it took to get his preferred sorting. So really, the question shouldn't be "what Hogwarts House would Hamilton be sorted in?" so much as "what Hogwarts House would Hamilton choose?" I'd say Gryffindor, given all his youthful desires to distinguish himself in battle, and he certainly wasn't lacking for bravery.
posted by yasaman at 1:16 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


Also, let's be real, Alexander "talked for six hours, the Convention was listless!" Hamilton would have been ready and willing to argue with the Sorting Hat for however long it took to get his preferred sorting.

I'm more "Harry Potter familiar" than "Harry Potter fanboy" but I need to see this desperately.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:34 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


Nellie Bly (aka Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman) on either the $10 or the $20.
posted by Splunge at 1:47 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Are you crying again?"

MCMikeNamara, my wife's most frequent question upon coming home these days is "Are you crying about Hamilton again?"
posted by donnagirl at 1:51 PM on November 19, 2015 [13 favorites]


"I know who I married."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:52 PM on November 19, 2015 [16 favorites]


OMG people how are we even arguing this? It's embarrassing.

Burr - Slytherin because he's ambitious, yes, but also cautious and has a sense of self-preservation.
Angelica - Ravenclaw because duh.
Eliza - Only a Hufflepuff would put up with Alexander's nonsense even before the Reynold's Pamphlet dropped.
Washington, Laurens, Lafayette - Gryffindors
Jefferson - Ravenclaw in love with his high ideals and learning
Hamilton - Hat stall between Gryffindor and Slytherin but went with Gryffindor because it sounded more fun.
King George III - Squib.
posted by bgal81 at 2:10 PM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


I remember reading somewhere (I think somewhere with dubious sources -- so likely tumblr) that Jack Lew, the Secretary of the Treasury, was upset about the massive popularity of Hamilton. Mainly since the department's response to the Women on 20s campaign was to take Hamilton off the 10 and replace him with a woman.

I don't think it's an idealistic attachment to Jackson so much as that the $10 bill is the next one up in line for a redesign, but that could be me being optimistic.

Also, I really enjoyed this blog post about Hamilton that I found through Crone Island. I particularly appreciate her points on why Hamilton has such a fandom so quickly and how much of The West Wing's influence she sees in it.

On a less serious note -- I found out on tumblr that there is an Avocado Twitter account that is obsessed with Hamilton and spent a good many tweets replacing various lyrics with avocado. "Who Lives Who Dies Who Guacamoles" slayed me.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 2:11 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


JustKeepSwimming - Wow, that post is really on point! Thanks for linking that.
posted by Wretch729 at 2:20 PM on November 19, 2015


Damn, hivemind at work here. Good candidates to replace genocidal racist Andrew Jackson: Ida Wells, Susan Anthony, Harriet Tubman.

My personal vote is for Shirley Chisholm.
posted by Itaxpica at 2:24 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


If anyone would like to share their spot on our currency with a lady, it would be Hamilton. (Hey ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) hey ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) hey ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) )
posted by bgal81 at 2:25 PM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]


(In the spirit of bipartisanship, Margaret Chase Smith wouldn't be a bad choice either)
posted by Itaxpica at 2:37 PM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


JustKeepSwimming: " "Who Lives Who Dies Who Guacamoles" slayed me."

Yeah now I keep singing to my guacamole tenderly ever time I eat it. My mother was like "wtf" and I tried to explain it, forgetting that she is not #Hamiltrash, and finally I had to give up and just say "It's a Hamilton joke, you'd have to listen to the whole thing first."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:50 PM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]


I read somewhere (can't find it now) that Jackson's own descendants (his own descendants! damn!) have spoken out in favor of keeping Hamilton on the $10 and booting Jackson from the $20, which makes me unreasonably happy.

(also I have a ticket for March 29 ahhhhhhhh)
posted by nonasuch at 2:55 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


How long does it take for a hit show like this to go on tour? Soon, right? Please tell me soon? :(
posted by bgal81 at 2:59 PM on November 19, 2015


Oh, and for the record: Hamilton is a Slytherin as much as Hermione Granger is a Ravenclaw-- sure, they share common interests, but their fundamental approach to life is Gryffindor as hell.
posted by nonasuch at 2:59 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wow, I get excited about the US finally having a woman on a currency note. Then I stop paying attention, and they pull this Jackson/Hamilton switcheroo?

Yes, there's some positive aspect to getting a woman on a bill as quickly as possible, thus going for the next one in line to be redesigned. But there's also something to be said about how Hamilton is awesome and Jackson was a total shitbird (uh, to use the technical term).
posted by cardioid at 3:04 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


But there's also something to be said about how Hamilton is awesome and Jackson was a total shitbird

Yup, this is my feeling too. If we can get Jackson off the 20, even it it takes longer, I'm willing to wait for it.
posted by nonasuch at 3:17 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


Wait for it! Wait for it!
posted by CrystalDave at 3:18 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


How long does it take for a hit show like this to go on tour? Soon, right? Please tell me soon? :(

Normally, it's a little over a year from when a show takes off on Broadway before the tour. For a couple points of comparison: The Book of Mormon opened on Broadway in March 2011 and the tour started in August 2012 and In the Heights (for a direct Miranda based comparison) opened in March 2008 and the tour started in October 2009. Hamilton opened in August -- so early 2017 would be when I'd expect a tour to start.

So not too terribly far out. The only caveat to that is that you have no idea when it'll come to your city.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 3:27 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


By the way, I have spent a lot of time contemplating when a tour will come around. Namely because I need to do something to starve off the jealousy of my friends who have seen it. Of which there are a surprising amount. Many of whom are lottery winners, though not all.

Then again, my local friends who have the capacity to travel to NYC can't get a ticket. I think it's more a case that the NYC friends were able to spend a lot of time taking their chances with the lottery and/or saw it at The Public.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 3:31 PM on November 19, 2015


Wait, I have another thing to tell you all in honor of keeping Hamilton's grudges alive: tl;dr I know in my heart Thomas Jefferson had this journalist killed.
posted by yasaman at 4:58 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure why the perfect solution isn't putting a woman on the $10 and moving Hamilton to the $20.
posted by TwoStride at 5:24 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


Because then the opening lines of the musical won't scan anymore, TwoStride. "Twenty-dollar founding father without a father" doesn't sound as good.
posted by nonasuch at 5:38 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


The opening could instead play on the "Never thought I'd live past twenty/where I'm from some get half as many" line instead.
posted by TwoStride at 5:41 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]


I'm really hoping they'll somehow film this production and put it on a Fathom Events or something so I can at least view it, because it took like 4 years for Book of Mormon to reach my area :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:43 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Book of Mormon is playing here and someone was offering tickets I could not afford, and another person on the email list was all "What is it? Is it about God? I like old fashioned musicals!" and I was torn between telling him he shouldn't go and telling him he should. I decided to say nothing. Don't need someone's heart attack on my karma.
posted by emjaybee at 6:58 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


I have been a mefi lurker FOREVER, and I would like to make it known that this thread is the reason I finally signed up.

This, and the whole "cookies from Internet strangers" thing.
posted by smb0626 at 7:30 PM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]


BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH OLD FASHIONED MUSICALS BWAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Book of Mormon is finally coming to the city nearest me (as opposed to my having to go a few hours to see it like I did before, I deeply loved the idea of waiting for my mom to find out what "Hasa Diga Eebowai" was about but she took it well), so there's that. What, a five year wait?

I'd tell him no if he's into God and old fashioned--saves him money for when he walks out in a huff after the first 20 minutes and saves ticket space for someone who would like it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:33 PM on November 19, 2015


Now I'm thinking of weird Hamilton/BoM mashups.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:41 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh man, guys, the Post's 'Hamilton' tag is worth digging into. This is an article about how two of Hamilton and Burr's descendants are now kayaking buddies.
posted by nonasuch at 7:47 PM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Who lives, who dies, who still has maggots in their scrotum?
posted by zachlipton at 7:47 PM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


You're making things up again, Aaron.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 PM on November 19, 2015


A warlord who shoots people in the face
What's so scary about that?
I'm young, scrappy and hungry,
And I'm not throwing away my shot!
posted by ChuraChura at 8:09 PM on November 19, 2015


Hello! My name is Alex Ham, and I would like to share with you the most amazing books.

"You and me, but mostly me" really fits with Burr and Ham as well, except Burr is not so happy to sidekick.

"I'm something I've foreseen... Now that I'm nineteen, and my mind is older...."

"We just had a hurricane, hasa diga eebowai.
"Oh yeah, and my son just died, hasa diga eebowai."
"When my wife and daughter are dead, there's nobody else to blame, raise your middle finger to the sky and curse his rotten name."

"The all-American orphan!"

"New York City, the most perfect place on earth, where flies don't bite your eyeballs, but human life...still doesn't have worth" since there's a war on.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:16 PM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Talk less, smile more. Do whatever it takes to get more Mormons through your door."
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


"Cuz when push comes to shove
I will circumsize all your women
To remind you of my love"
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:53 PM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Here comes the general and his right hand man" has a whole different context in the Book of Mormon.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:55 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Look into your eyes, and the sky’s the limit I’m helpless!
Down for the count, and I’m drownin’ in baptism."

"Laughin’ at my sister, cuz she wants to form a harem"---more appropriate in Book of Mormon? :P

Lines that work either way:
"I need my right hand man back."
"Let me tell you what I wish I’d known
When I was young and dreamed of glory:
You have no control:
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story"
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:04 PM on November 19, 2015


I'm really hoping they'll somehow film this production and put it on a Fathom Events or something so I can at least view it, because it took like 4 years for Book of Mormon to reach my area :(

Miranda has said a few times that he's hell-bent on getting Hamilton filmed. I've heard rumors about July 2016, but nothing remotely legit.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:53 PM on November 19, 2015


According to my "Forgotten English" calendar, today is Alexander Hamilton's birthday!

I love this thread. And welcome, smb0626!
posted by TwoStride at 5:47 AM on November 20, 2015


This is it. This is the best thread.
posted by harujion at 5:59 AM on November 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Great cover of "Wait For It" by a high school ensemble!
posted by kmz at 5:59 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Best of threads and best of women.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:36 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


two of Hamilton and Burr's descendants are now kayaking buddies

The pièce de résistance.
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:40 AM on November 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm waiting for a pair of descendants to marry and name their children Alexander Burr and Aaron Hamilton.
posted by jeather at 6:53 AM on November 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


Really, the best thing is when Lin goes and makes The West Wing references though.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:11 AM on November 20, 2015


HERCULES MULLIGAN
posted by flatluigi at 10:12 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


A TAILOR SPYING ON THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT
posted by prefpara at 10:51 AM on November 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


this is rapidly becoming my mating cry
posted by prefpara at 10:52 AM on November 20, 2015 [2 favorites]




Hercules Mulligan!
posted by kmz at 11:13 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Lafayette was wrong - Andrew Jackson is The Worst. We can't blame the Marquis, though, as the revolutionaries had neither psychic powers nor time-travel capability.
posted by tzikeh at 11:18 AM on November 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


According to my "Forgotten English" calendar, today is Alexander Hamilton's birthday!

Today is January 11th?
posted by tzikeh at 11:22 AM on November 20, 2015


Today is January 11th?

Who lives, who dies, whose calendar tells your story?
posted by TwoStride at 4:13 PM on November 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Today is January 11th?
There's no bastard orphan I'd rather share a birthday with!
posted by atropos at 7:24 PM on November 20, 2015


Super fun On Your Feet/In The Heights Ham4Ham.
posted by kmz at 6:56 AM on November 23, 2015


Look, I love the Slytherins, but Ham is not a Slytherin AT ALL. A Slytherin would not have quit George Washington's staff because he wanted to fight, not write. A Slytherin knows when to shut up, and not openly pick fights with people who can destroy their career. A Slytherin would not have written the Reynolds pamphlet. Ham is an ambitious genius who can think circles around other people without trying (not to be confused with cunning) and who had to learn how to hustle out of necessity. That's where the confusion can come from, but his priority is on doing what he thinks is right, or defending his honor, even if it's ill-thought-out and ruinous to his own career or loved ones. Battle cry of Gryffindor: "FUCK YOU, FIGHT ME!" Hamilton to a t. His secondary would probably be Ravenclaw.

Burr is the Slytherin. "The Room Where It Happens" and "Wait For It" are basically Slytherin anthems. Hamilton is at his most Slytherin-y during the dinner deal, which is when he's explicitly following Burr's advice to talk less, smile more.

BTW Angelica is totally a Slytherin, too. They're the house that most prioritizes family and status, and she was fantastic at cultivating influence in the restricted ways that were open to women of her time. Her ambition was only crippled by the happenstance of her gender.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:28 PM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]


also it's impossible for me to read all this without thinking "YA DONE MESSED UP, A-ARON!"
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:37 PM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]




that might be slightly too far
posted by flatluigi at 3:08 AM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


Have you ever felt the thrill of a climax caused simply by hearing that Alexander Hamilton wrote 51 of the 85 Federalist Papers? It’s like nothing you’ve ever experienced, so deeply does it emerge from the core of your very being.

I want to embroider this in cross-stitch and hang it on my wall
posted by Gordafarin at 2:24 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


George Takei #Ham4Ham!
posted by kmz at 10:27 PM on November 27, 2015




So... while accepting this is all a bit silly I'm still gunna push back on the Slytherin Hamilton thing because why not embrace my nerdity. Solon and Thanks (awesome username btw) makes a compelling case but I haven't changed my mind. I do think this might in part depend on whether you place cunning or ambition as the big Slytherin trait, and might also be because people are thinking about dramatic musical Hamilton rather than historical real person Hamilton. My take:

A Slytherin would not have quit George Washington's staff because he wanted to fight, not write.
Yes, but "If you gave me command of a battalion, a group of men to lead, I could fly above my station after the war." Hamilton didn't want to fight because he was bellicose (though he may have been) he wanted to fight because military glory was the surest route to social prestige for a bastard arriviste. That's why he declined to serve as aide to the other commanders before finally joining Washington's staff.

A Slytherin knows when to shut up, and not openly pick fights with people who can destroy their career. Probably the strongest argument against Hamilton being in Slytherin. My response:

Hamilton, for all his arrogance, rarely picked a fight he didn't judge himself capable of winning. In the aftermath of the revolution he remained loyal to Washington, and insinuated himself so well into his cabinet that President Adams, who had retained many members of the first President's cabinet, ended up having to fire a bunch of guys who were more loyal to Hamilton than to the sitting President. It was Jefferson who came off the worse from his encounters during the first Washington administration. Sure a Slytherin avoids unnecessary public conflict, but Hamilton knew "you don’t get a win unless you play in the game."

Also, it's not like Slytherins always chose their battles wisely: Draco Malfoy (constantly provokes foolish fights in which he comes off the worse). Or there's Lucius Malfoy (loses his big confrontation with Dumbledore/Harry in book 2, fails to damage Arthur's career in the ministry, bungles the confrontation with Harry in book 5 and is reduced to a prisoner in his own home). Severus Snape (as a youth consistently came off the worse in open confrontations with the marauders, as a young adult ruins his life and ends up beholden to Dumbledore through a series of poor, emotion-driven choices).

A Slytherin would not have written the Reynolds pamphlet.
I mentioned before - Hamilton wrote the Reynolds pamphlet after rumors about his possible corruption were already swirling, making a considered strategic decision to accept personal ridicule in order to defend his professional integrity. It wasn't an ideal play, but it was making the best of a bad situation. (An analogy could be to Lucius Malfoy's imperius defense after the first Voldemort conflict; public admission of being weakminded and the puppet of another was preferable to following an unrepentant Bellatrix to Azkaban).

Ham is an ambitious genius who can think circles around other people without trying (not to be confused with cunning) and who had to learn how to hustle out of necessity.
Sure but for me it's the ambition that's most important.

That's where the confusion can come from, but his priority is on doing what he thinks is right, or defending his honor, even if it's ill-thought-out and ruinous to his own career or loved ones.
Strongly disagree. Hamilton certainly had political ideals and a vision of how he wanted the fledgling US to be, but always kept his own advantage in mind.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:41 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


I think the romanticism of Gryffindor would have drawn Hamilton in over Slytherin. I mean the house of bravery, nerve, and daring sounds like the perfect place for a dude with a death wish.
posted by bgal81 at 8:22 AM on December 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


great post, Wretch729. I think we agree more than you think! By saying that Hamilton prioritizes doing what he felt was right/defending his honor, I didn't really mean in a social justice crusader way. Rather than he had a firm conviction that his ideas were right and that he tended to make rash decisions because of that ego.

It's a good point that he usually thought he could win the battles that he fought. I was thinking about a lot of the parts in the book where he's in a good spot, but pushes too hard and makes enemies as a result. I.E., I don't have it on hand, but early in the book where he selfishly pushes for both his friend and his father-in-law to be NY senators(?), missing the opportunity to throw another influential political family a bone and earning some big enemies instead of building a useful partnership. And so on.

That political clumsiness - where throughout the book (with a few notable exceptions) he generally seems to succeed because of his genius, not because he's particularly good at maneuvering - is what strikes me as being not particularly Slytheriny. Sure, some Slytherins clumsily pick fights they can't win, but it strikes me as the exception rather than the rule. That's the house that was able to secretly infiltrate the Ministry of Magic, etc.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:55 PM on December 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Indeed, we seem to agree about Hamilton but (mildly) disagree about interpreting the House sorting system, which admittedly is as malleable and vague as any other half-baked personality test.

So now I'm curious, where does everyone else end up? I mostly agree with bgal81 upthread, except on Hamilton obvs. Where does John Adams end up? Because my first impression (without the now ridiculous amount of time I've spent thinking about Hamilton) is Gryffindor. Which in part I think explains why I'd put Hamilton in Slytherin. Jefferson is a Ravenclaw with a lot of Slytherin friends and no scruples about letting them off the leash on his behalf. A lot of people seem to put Washington in Gryffindor but I'm not convinced he wasn't a Hufflepuff... All about the team, was George.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:17 AM on December 3, 2015


I'd agree with Hufflepuff for Washington. The reluctance to go to war but willing to do so for his friends and country, being very careful to set the standard of the President as just another citizen, not cod-royalty... very Hufflepuff in my mind.
posted by tavella at 8:46 AM on December 3, 2015


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