"She's not funny."
November 19, 2015 7:13 AM Subscribe
Why men don't like funny women:
When they would ask men and women what they looked for in their long-term partners, both genders would say they wanted someone “with a good sense of humor.” It was only when researchers pressed their subjects on what they meant, specifically, by “sense of humor,” that the sex difference became clear. Women want men who will tell jokes; men want women who will laugh at theirs.
I've always wondered why we call it a sense of humor when, most of the time, what we mean is the ability to create humor.
Khazan briefly touches on a thing that I think is a key component of the difference: a lot of "guy humor" is insults (on others or self-deprecating), and men will tend to see even a funny insult from a woman as an attack, or at least an indication that the man won't be able to sleep with the woman because she has seen some weakness.
posted by Etrigan at 7:21 AM on November 19, 2015 [28 favorites]
Khazan briefly touches on a thing that I think is a key component of the difference: a lot of "guy humor" is insults (on others or self-deprecating), and men will tend to see even a funny insult from a woman as an attack, or at least an indication that the man won't be able to sleep with the woman because she has seen some weakness.
posted by Etrigan at 7:21 AM on November 19, 2015 [28 favorites]
I hate it when I have to speak up as a single, contrary data point but: I was a professor and I am a woman and my students loved the fuck out of my humor. My experiences were exactly the opposite, right down to the student evals. The men I dated were also really vocal about my being able to make them laugh. So I don't know. Humor pretty contextual so maybe humor in the classroom is something that takes a lot of honing and understanding of what students find appropriate or inappropriate. Then again I am also extremely gender neutral in my appearance and my behavior which may strip me of the sort of things that subconsciously trigger sexism in people.
I also found that I was treated differently when I attempted to be outwardly and typically feminine, so there is that. Could just be another side effect of what we expect when we see people adhering to typical gender roles. Not that it is explicit or even implicit that the author does this. Students are FAR more likely to judge a female professor when she does not adhere to gender norms, typically negatively, and humor may still be considered the realm of men and thus dismissed by default.
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:23 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
I also found that I was treated differently when I attempted to be outwardly and typically feminine, so there is that. Could just be another side effect of what we expect when we see people adhering to typical gender roles. Not that it is explicit or even implicit that the author does this. Students are FAR more likely to judge a female professor when she does not adhere to gender norms, typically negatively, and humor may still be considered the realm of men and thus dismissed by default.
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:23 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
At least we have gotten past the stage where women comedians had to be unattractive to remain unthreatening enough to be successful.
posted by fairmettle at 7:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 7:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was surprised to see the author invoke Evo Psych in this piece.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:27 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Xavier Xavier at 7:27 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've always wondered why we call it a sense of humor when, most of the time, what we mean is the ability to create humor.
Because, like most words, the word "sense" is used in multiple, well, senses. There are the senses of your nose and ears and so forth, and then there are terms like "common sense" and "horse sense", where the word refers to good judgment and instincts.
There are plenty of hilarious female comics right now. Anyone who finds themselves constitutionally incapable of appreciating jokes when they come from a woman's mouth is missing out.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:28 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Because, like most words, the word "sense" is used in multiple, well, senses. There are the senses of your nose and ears and so forth, and then there are terms like "common sense" and "horse sense", where the word refers to good judgment and instincts.
There are plenty of hilarious female comics right now. Anyone who finds themselves constitutionally incapable of appreciating jokes when they come from a woman's mouth is missing out.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:28 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Norm violators get punished, and often, that means funny women are punished, too.
I wish she connected this a little more to the idea of humor attempts she discusses earlier in the piece (where men are seen as funnier because they make more jokes and thus get more laughs even if men and women are funny at the same rate/attempt); I am SUPER funny but I am sometimes afraid to express it because either people think I am funny (TRUE) but also weird (NOT TRUE SHUT UP) because of the norm violation OR they think I'm not funny and also weird for trying to be funny or they just don't get what I'm saying.
I end up making a joke and apologizing for it immediately (I am constantly apologizing for things) so that people hear the apology before they've really processed the joke because every time I tell a joke I'm taking a social and, occasionally, professional risk in a way that I think men aren't so, yeah, of course I tell fewer jokes (except I don't because I can't control myself and am super awkward but I totally understand why a lot of more functional women would).
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:29 AM on November 19, 2015 [25 favorites]
I wish she connected this a little more to the idea of humor attempts she discusses earlier in the piece (where men are seen as funnier because they make more jokes and thus get more laughs even if men and women are funny at the same rate/attempt); I am SUPER funny but I am sometimes afraid to express it because either people think I am funny (TRUE) but also weird (NOT TRUE SHUT UP) because of the norm violation OR they think I'm not funny and also weird for trying to be funny or they just don't get what I'm saying.
I end up making a joke and apologizing for it immediately (I am constantly apologizing for things) so that people hear the apology before they've really processed the joke because every time I tell a joke I'm taking a social and, occasionally, professional risk in a way that I think men aren't so, yeah, of course I tell fewer jokes (except I don't because I can't control myself and am super awkward but I totally understand why a lot of more functional women would).
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:29 AM on November 19, 2015 [25 favorites]
I was a professor and I am a woman and my students loved the fuck out of my humor
Maybe you're actually funny though? The article brings up a great point that I never realized in all of this:
As in hockey, it appears, so in lols: You miss 100 percent of the shots you don’t take. The 2011 Intelligence study similarly found that men wrote more captions overall, both funny and lame. In other words, men make more attempts at humor, so they are successful more of the time.
When a guy is doing the thing with his group of friends where he's throwing all the shit he can think of against the wall and seeing what sticks - when something doesn't get a laugh it's just kind of shrugged off or he's just seen as a generally goofy/boisterous/eccentric dude. When a woman bombs, it's "SHE'S NOT FUNNY. SHE THINKS SHE'S FUNNY BUT SHE ISN'T. SHE KEEPS TRYING TO MAKE JOKES BUT SUCKS. SHE SUCKS. SHE'S ANNOYING. I DON'T LIKE HER. NOW THAT I THINK OF IT I DON'T LIKE WOMEN AS PEOPLE."
It kind of goes back to the idea that actual equality means we can all fuck up and be flawed equally without it being attributed to gender or race or what have you. Men and women should be allowed to bomb on jokes equally.
posted by windbox at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2015 [84 favorites]
Maybe you're actually funny though? The article brings up a great point that I never realized in all of this:
As in hockey, it appears, so in lols: You miss 100 percent of the shots you don’t take. The 2011 Intelligence study similarly found that men wrote more captions overall, both funny and lame. In other words, men make more attempts at humor, so they are successful more of the time.
When a guy is doing the thing with his group of friends where he's throwing all the shit he can think of against the wall and seeing what sticks - when something doesn't get a laugh it's just kind of shrugged off or he's just seen as a generally goofy/boisterous/eccentric dude. When a woman bombs, it's "SHE'S NOT FUNNY. SHE THINKS SHE'S FUNNY BUT SHE ISN'T. SHE KEEPS TRYING TO MAKE JOKES BUT SUCKS. SHE SUCKS. SHE'S ANNOYING. I DON'T LIKE HER. NOW THAT I THINK OF IT I DON'T LIKE WOMEN AS PEOPLE."
It kind of goes back to the idea that actual equality means we can all fuck up and be flawed equally without it being attributed to gender or race or what have you. Men and women should be allowed to bomb on jokes equally.
posted by windbox at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2015 [84 favorites]
At least we have gotten past the stage where women comedians had to be unattractive to remain unthreatening enough to be successful.
posted by fairmettle
Female comedians used to be unattractive? I don't find that at all to be the case.
posted by agregoli at 7:34 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by fairmettle
Female comedians used to be unattractive? I don't find that at all to be the case.
posted by agregoli at 7:34 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
There are plenty of hilarious female comics right now. Anyone who finds themselves constitutionally incapable of appreciating jokes when they come from a woman's mouth is missing out.
But I don't think that's what the article's really about. There are tons and tons of funny women and we as a culture have a decent history of comediennes (although many times funny women have needed to play into uncomfortable tropes like being dopey but pretty or funny but unattractive or whatever), and yes there's more space for and recognition of funny women in the realm of actual comedy, but on a day to day basis a lot of women still face the perception that they aren't funny AND are less willing to accept that they might be funny and thus don't try to make jokes.
This isn't about misogynists declaring "I refuse to appreciate jokes uttered by females", this is about a pervasive culture that devalues women's creativity as expressed through humor while prioritizing women who express appreciation of men's creativity. Things might be improving, especially at the top, but that doesn't mean that we don't still view women's humor through a misogynistic lens.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [38 favorites]
But I don't think that's what the article's really about. There are tons and tons of funny women and we as a culture have a decent history of comediennes (although many times funny women have needed to play into uncomfortable tropes like being dopey but pretty or funny but unattractive or whatever), and yes there's more space for and recognition of funny women in the realm of actual comedy, but on a day to day basis a lot of women still face the perception that they aren't funny AND are less willing to accept that they might be funny and thus don't try to make jokes.
This isn't about misogynists declaring "I refuse to appreciate jokes uttered by females", this is about a pervasive culture that devalues women's creativity as expressed through humor while prioritizing women who express appreciation of men's creativity. Things might be improving, especially at the top, but that doesn't mean that we don't still view women's humor through a misogynistic lens.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [38 favorites]
Khazan briefly touches on a thing that I think is a key component of the difference: a lot of "guy humor" is insults (on others or self-deprecating), and men will tend to see even a funny insult from a woman as an attack, or at least an indication that the man won't be able to sleep with the woman because she has seen some weakness.
Or as it usually attributed to Margaret Atwood, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
Insult-humor requires a lot of delicacy to do well. The insult has to be real enough to be funny, but not so on-point as to be actually insulting. Needless to say, most people don't do it well, and should probably do it a lot less.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
Or as it usually attributed to Margaret Atwood, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
Insult-humor requires a lot of delicacy to do well. The insult has to be real enough to be funny, but not so on-point as to be actually insulting. Needless to say, most people don't do it well, and should probably do it a lot less.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm extremely aware of how gender stereotypes influence evaluations of people.
I still think about the student evaluation I had that accused me of "showing off" what I know. I have a male colleague whose teaching style is similar to mine (dorky, enthusiastic), and he's never gotten the same type of feedback. He also gets laughs a lot more than I do.
(But then, I do make him laugh a lot. #notallmen)
One data point, so maybe it's just me, but then there's all that research out there that tells me that if I am equally funny, if I am equally skilled, I will still likely be rated like I am now - that is, less smart, less funny, less everything except perhaps "helpful."
(Of course I get some negative feedback about that too, if I ever say sorry, no I can't do that for you.)
And that's the really pernicious thing - you can never really know. Maybe I really do suck. And that digs in, you know, and makes you more afraid to try things.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
I still think about the student evaluation I had that accused me of "showing off" what I know. I have a male colleague whose teaching style is similar to mine (dorky, enthusiastic), and he's never gotten the same type of feedback. He also gets laughs a lot more than I do.
(But then, I do make him laugh a lot. #notallmen)
One data point, so maybe it's just me, but then there's all that research out there that tells me that if I am equally funny, if I am equally skilled, I will still likely be rated like I am now - that is, less smart, less funny, less everything except perhaps "helpful."
(Of course I get some negative feedback about that too, if I ever say sorry, no I can't do that for you.)
And that's the really pernicious thing - you can never really know. Maybe I really do suck. And that digs in, you know, and makes you more afraid to try things.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'm noticing this a lot now that I'm trying to date. A lot of guys say they like funny women, but what they mean is that they like women who laugh at their jokes. Actually funny women are threatening, apparently. Insert my bemused spinster face here.
posted by palomar at 7:36 AM on November 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:36 AM on November 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
Do guys really like hanging out with other guys who don't laugh at their jokes? It's not fun to have a jibe fall flat with anybody regardless of gender unless you really enjoy laughing at yourself.
posted by mattamatic at 7:37 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mattamatic at 7:37 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The joke is the least of the funny i find attractive. Funny can be screwy and cynical. In fact the most biting humor I've come across in my women friends is usually a kind cryptic cynicism. In a group discussion I'll hear a quip that is mostly passed over by others but it draws me to her and I pay closer attention to everything she says. Trying to be funny never works for men or women. Being funny is sexy, trying is not...
posted by judson at 7:38 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by judson at 7:38 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
But I don't think that's what the article's really about.
You are right. Sorry; I posted before RTFA'ing. My bad.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on November 19, 2015
You are right. Sorry; I posted before RTFA'ing. My bad.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on November 19, 2015
My wife both loves to laugh and makes me laugh, all the time. Same with all of our friends. I can't imagine life being enjoyable without lots of laughter all around. People who get humor and laughing all tied up with personal identity and insecurity, or ego, or whatever, are just interfering with one of the greatest parts of being human.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's cool! I'm all about recognizing the many funny women out there.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
It seems to me that this article missed an obvious connection. One premise is that men are using humor 'to get some', so the idea of the lone male holding forth is central to this...he is alone in front of his audience, preening. A funny woman, therefore, is competition!
It would be an interesting experiment to see the difference in how funny men think each other are when they are in mixed company versus when its just men (not competing with each other for women) joking amongst themselves .
I am fortunate to have and appreciate many many funny women in my life.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:43 AM on November 19, 2015
It would be an interesting experiment to see the difference in how funny men think each other are when they are in mixed company versus when its just men (not competing with each other for women) joking amongst themselves .
I am fortunate to have and appreciate many many funny women in my life.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:43 AM on November 19, 2015
I was surprised to see the author invoke Evo Psych in this piece.
u cant argue wtih biotruthz
But seriously, hey, patriarchy strikes again. I'm glad that my wife mostly puts up with my nonstop stream of lame puns (any partner who didn't would either leave or shiv me in my sleep), but I'm also pretty happy that she makes me laugh on the regs, too. Is that, as the article puts it, a luxury or a requirement? I'd like to say it's the latter.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
u cant argue wtih biotruthz
But seriously, hey, patriarchy strikes again. I'm glad that my wife mostly puts up with my nonstop stream of lame puns (any partner who didn't would either leave or shiv me in my sleep), but I'm also pretty happy that she makes me laugh on the regs, too. Is that, as the article puts it, a luxury or a requirement? I'd like to say it's the latter.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually funny women are threatening, apparently.
It depends on how someone is actually funny. I once dated a woman with a brilliant sense of humor and killer comic timing, but I sort of got tired of being the object of her very clever and usually spot-on jokes. Especially the puns.
posted by three blind mice at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015
It depends on how someone is actually funny. I once dated a woman with a brilliant sense of humor and killer comic timing, but I sort of got tired of being the object of her very clever and usually spot-on jokes. Especially the puns.
posted by three blind mice at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015
Actually funny women are threatening, apparently.
I was surprised at the evo psych in the article because it doesn't really touch on this. Why are funny men supposedly better mates, in a way funny women aren't? The author tries to explain that humor indexes things that make men better mates, but then the question is why those things (like smarts) are valued more in men. It's turtles all the way down.
Whereas, my experience is that it is very hard to be subservient and funny at the same time. The best humor is incisive - sometimes it cuts people, but it can also be about situations, rules, and so on. It displays an intelligence that can be turned on you. It's a threat to your status over women.
(This might not be true of the more whimsical side of humor, but then this is considered more trivial and also is more feminized.)
The men who laugh at me the most are the ones who think I'm smart and aren't threatened by it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
I was surprised at the evo psych in the article because it doesn't really touch on this. Why are funny men supposedly better mates, in a way funny women aren't? The author tries to explain that humor indexes things that make men better mates, but then the question is why those things (like smarts) are valued more in men. It's turtles all the way down.
Whereas, my experience is that it is very hard to be subservient and funny at the same time. The best humor is incisive - sometimes it cuts people, but it can also be about situations, rules, and so on. It displays an intelligence that can be turned on you. It's a threat to your status over women.
(This might not be true of the more whimsical side of humor, but then this is considered more trivial and also is more feminized.)
The men who laugh at me the most are the ones who think I'm smart and aren't threatened by it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:47 AM on November 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Women want men who will tell jokes; men want women who will laugh at theirs.
On the surface, this particular phrasing actually sounds reasonable. That is, neither of these desires is particularly opposed. (Obviously there’s more going on here - but that phrasing doesn’t really get at it.)
posted by Going To Maine at 7:48 AM on November 19, 2015
On the surface, this particular phrasing actually sounds reasonable. That is, neither of these desires is particularly opposed. (Obviously there’s more going on here - but that phrasing doesn’t really get at it.)
posted by Going To Maine at 7:48 AM on November 19, 2015
A while ago people used to say that women had a different style of humour, and in particular didn't go in for punch lines and one-liners.
Is that still considered true or correct?
posted by Segundus at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2015
Is that still considered true or correct?
posted by Segundus at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2015
So maybe it's more "Men who use humor to get some don't like funny women, because they take the spotlight off of them." Men who don't use humor that way, or don't mind sharing the spotlight, can probably appreciate a joke/quip regardless of the teller.
Did they do any studies on older groups of men/women? The swaggering approach to joking as a way to attract others is something that I stopped finding attractive after college. Partly because the guys who did it never ever liked when I responded in kind.
posted by emjaybee at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2015
Did they do any studies on older groups of men/women? The swaggering approach to joking as a way to attract others is something that I stopped finding attractive after college. Partly because the guys who did it never ever liked when I responded in kind.
posted by emjaybee at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2015
I've always been glad to be an outlier in this sort of stuff. The smarter and funnier the woman, the more I stare through a haze while Dreamweaver blares in my own personal PA system.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
It is hard work being The Laugher - it is a job, not a casual hobby.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 7:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
At least we have gotten past the stage where women comedians had to be unattractive to remain unthreatening enough to be successful.
Yeah, this is a weird thing to say. Who are we talking about here? Roseanne? Margaret Cho? Gilda Radner? None of them are bombshells, but are they really less attractive than your average male comedian? John Belushi or Bernie Mac or Jerry Seinfeld or I dunno, Patton Oswalt? One of the nice things about comedy has always been that you don't have to be hot to succeed. If anything funny women have always faced a higher attractiveness bar than men. Lucille Ball was a pretty woman and didn't pretend to be otherwise.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:51 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yeah, this is a weird thing to say. Who are we talking about here? Roseanne? Margaret Cho? Gilda Radner? None of them are bombshells, but are they really less attractive than your average male comedian? John Belushi or Bernie Mac or Jerry Seinfeld or I dunno, Patton Oswalt? One of the nice things about comedy has always been that you don't have to be hot to succeed. If anything funny women have always faced a higher attractiveness bar than men. Lucille Ball was a pretty woman and didn't pretend to be otherwise.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:51 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Female comedians used to be unattractive?
Phyllis Diller's first TV show was called Phyllis Diller, the Homely Friendmaker. Her unattractiveness was a linchpin of her career. Joan Rivers, Lily Tomlin, Roseanne, Ellen DeGeneres... there's a long, long list of female comedians who weren't conventionally attractive, many of whom used self-deprecating humor. Many, many female comedians even today say that people have told them "You'll never make it in comedy -- you're too pretty."
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
Phyllis Diller's first TV show was called Phyllis Diller, the Homely Friendmaker. Her unattractiveness was a linchpin of her career. Joan Rivers, Lily Tomlin, Roseanne, Ellen DeGeneres... there's a long, long list of female comedians who weren't conventionally attractive, many of whom used self-deprecating humor. Many, many female comedians even today say that people have told them "You'll never make it in comedy -- you're too pretty."
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
This must be why I am perpetually single.
posted by bgal81 at 7:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bgal81 at 7:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Someone who's really funny has an unusual kind of social power, to put it a bit crudely; being able to elicit laughter gives one a certain relational standing. Humor disarms people and engenders a certain amount of admiration, I would argue. So I don't think men might feel threatened by the wit and humor of women primarily because they don't want their partner to be smarter than they are, in an essential sense, but because the power relations created by funny women are uncomfortable for a lot of men. I think it's more about social power than mate selection dynamics.
posted by clockzero at 7:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 7:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Comedians in general are not known to be a super attractive bunch in the conventional sense.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:55 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:55 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am told I am funny. I don't feel like I try to be, but the worst relationships I've had were with men who liked that I was funny at first but when it started to seem like I would always be the funnier one of the two of us...well, then they didn't like that so much.
posted by Kitteh at 7:55 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:55 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
the worst relationships I've had were with men who liked that I was funny at first but when it started to seem like I would always be the funnier one of the two of us...well, then they didn't like that so much.
oh hi we must be each other
posted by palomar at 7:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
oh hi we must be each other
posted by palomar at 7:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
At least we have gotten past the stage where women comedians had to be unattractive to remain unthreatening enough to be successful.
Although there's still a lot of self-deprecating jokes about being unattractive when they clearly aren't. 30 Rock would make jokes about how dumpy Liz Lemon was supposed to be, when Tina Fey is demonstrably attractive, and The Mindy Project seems to swing wildly back-and-forth on how attractive Mindy Kaling is supposed to be.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Although there's still a lot of self-deprecating jokes about being unattractive when they clearly aren't. 30 Rock would make jokes about how dumpy Liz Lemon was supposed to be, when Tina Fey is demonstrably attractive, and The Mindy Project seems to swing wildly back-and-forth on how attractive Mindy Kaling is supposed to be.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Why Do So Many Pretty Female Comedians Think They're Ugly?
I was gonna say "look, female comics have been saying for years that they get shit for being attractive, and they are supposed to downplay it to be more funny" but I do realize that it's a common trope for male comics too, actually. The funniest male comics (to my 35 year-old "life transformed into fatherhood over the past 8 years" ass) are self-deprecating about their appearance on the regular. See Louis CK, Patton Oswalt, Brian Regan.
So maybe in the realm of being paid to be a comedian, there's some parity on stage in that audiences don't necessarily want a slick packaged comedian, they want someone rather broken and easy to relate to or compare against, but behind the scenes, there are some terrible accusations being lobbed that suggest that it's quite difficult to be an attractive female comedian and that it might be easier to get ahead with your dignity intact if you're not conventionally attractive and being hit on constantly. In any case comedy selects for incredibly thick skin, at least on the surface, which I guess is what skin is, but I know from my comedy obsession that these are some incredibly strong people that are very fragile and broken inside, but able to keep that shit together like no other.
posted by aydeejones at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was gonna say "look, female comics have been saying for years that they get shit for being attractive, and they are supposed to downplay it to be more funny" but I do realize that it's a common trope for male comics too, actually. The funniest male comics (to my 35 year-old "life transformed into fatherhood over the past 8 years" ass) are self-deprecating about their appearance on the regular. See Louis CK, Patton Oswalt, Brian Regan.
So maybe in the realm of being paid to be a comedian, there's some parity on stage in that audiences don't necessarily want a slick packaged comedian, they want someone rather broken and easy to relate to or compare against, but behind the scenes, there are some terrible accusations being lobbed that suggest that it's quite difficult to be an attractive female comedian and that it might be easier to get ahead with your dignity intact if you're not conventionally attractive and being hit on constantly. In any case comedy selects for incredibly thick skin, at least on the surface, which I guess is what skin is, but I know from my comedy obsession that these are some incredibly strong people that are very fragile and broken inside, but able to keep that shit together like no other.
posted by aydeejones at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Female comedians used to be unattractive? I don't find that at all to be the case.
posted by agregoli at 7:34 AM on November 19
Minnie Pearl, Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett, Gilda Radner, Roseann Barr, Joan Rivers, Paula Poundstone, Elayne Boosler, Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, Sandra Bernhard, etc., the list goes on and on. Whether these women were attractive or not (and some can be argued as very attractive) all of these women either downplayed their looks, commented on how they weren't the ideal of female beauty, or dressed in a way that didn't didn't traditionally signal "attractive female." Historically, it has been very rare for a female comedian to have a sexy/bombshell/attractive persona unless there was a "dumb blonde" or "stupid woman" angle to the comedy.
posted by sardonyx at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 7:34 AM on November 19
Minnie Pearl, Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett, Gilda Radner, Roseann Barr, Joan Rivers, Paula Poundstone, Elayne Boosler, Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, Sandra Bernhard, etc., the list goes on and on. Whether these women were attractive or not (and some can be argued as very attractive) all of these women either downplayed their looks, commented on how they weren't the ideal of female beauty, or dressed in a way that didn't didn't traditionally signal "attractive female." Historically, it has been very rare for a female comedian to have a sexy/bombshell/attractive persona unless there was a "dumb blonde" or "stupid woman" angle to the comedy.
posted by sardonyx at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
/wonders if any songs have been written about "keeping it together" and "being broken inside," starts writing song for T. Swift and T. Reznor collabo
posted by aydeejones at 8:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 8:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Whether these women were attractive or not (and some can be argued as very attractive) all of these women either downplayed their looks
Amy Schumer plays this angle to the point that I think it's making her comedy one-dimensional. I think she's brilliant and funny, but jesus christ give yourself a break about your looks.
posted by Karaage at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
Amy Schumer plays this angle to the point that I think it's making her comedy one-dimensional. I think she's brilliant and funny, but jesus christ give yourself a break about your looks.
posted by Karaage at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I've always been glad to be an outlier in this sort of stuff. The smarter and funnier the woman, the more I stare through a haze while Dreamweaver blares in my own personal PA system.
This a thousand times.
posted by Ber at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
This a thousand times.
posted by Ber at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
The article hypothesizes that a person's funniness is a proxy for judging their intelligence, and also cites evidence that many men prefer women who are less intelligent than they are.
So I wonder if women who crack wise simply intimidate many men—because being funny demonstrates intelligence, and that makes men feel like they're less worthy of that particular woman. Don't underestimate the power of male insecurity, especially in romantic contexts.
But, I think this really gets to the heart of it:
it is very hard to be subservient and funny at the same time
Being funny often involves being brash, using impolite language, taking swipes at (hopefully deserving) people or institutions or ideas, making yourself the center of a social situation—all things which aren't traditionally considered "ladylike". But, fuck that noise. IMHO it's hella attractive when a woman has the confidence and wit not only to be funny, but to do so in overt defiance of the cultural proscription against doing so. Humor is an expression of strength.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
So I wonder if women who crack wise simply intimidate many men—because being funny demonstrates intelligence, and that makes men feel like they're less worthy of that particular woman. Don't underestimate the power of male insecurity, especially in romantic contexts.
But, I think this really gets to the heart of it:
it is very hard to be subservient and funny at the same time
Being funny often involves being brash, using impolite language, taking swipes at (hopefully deserving) people or institutions or ideas, making yourself the center of a social situation—all things which aren't traditionally considered "ladylike". But, fuck that noise. IMHO it's hella attractive when a woman has the confidence and wit not only to be funny, but to do so in overt defiance of the cultural proscription against doing so. Humor is an expression of strength.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
The article I linked to specifically mentions that Phyllis Diller was going to be in an "ironic" Playboy photo shoot and ended up being too sexy for it to be funny...
Also here's an interesting quote to turn around for the purposes of this thread:
posted by aydeejones at 8:09 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also here's an interesting quote to turn around for the purposes of this thread:
And there's a disturbingly simple explanation for that. "You can't have people look at you and listen to you at the same time," says Gina Barreca, a professor of English literature and feminist theory at the University of Connecticut, with a laugh.Maybe for some guys, a funny attractive woman takes his head out of the "hey, I was just thinking about how hot you are" headspace and brings them into the "I hope this person doesn't mock something sacred to me and make me think less of myself, so I'll just think less of them now" mindset.
posted by aydeejones at 8:09 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I do know that for a lot of guys, they associate sarcasm with women and no matter how sarcastic their own sense of humor is, no matter how edgy and cynical their general approach to life and judging other people is, they hate any tone of sarcasm from a woman. Because it is fucking threatening when you think that person might be able to cut you down, unless you have the chops or the ego scaffolding to not take things personally, especially when sarcastic humor tangentially cuts across one of your sacred cows and you're too weak to roll with the punches and play along.
posted by aydeejones at 8:11 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 8:11 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think one of the biggest problems with this article and social sciences thinking about non-professional comedy in general is conflating all different kinds of jokes. Humor has many different purposes and types.
Holding forth in a cynical rant has one purpose.
Telling a long embarrassing story on yourself has another.
Light witty riffing, hot burns, observational wit, absurdist Non sequiturs, pranks: all do different things and have different social effects. (And then there are puns and street jokes, which are never funny, but do endear you to a certain kind of Dad.)
So when someone says they or someone they know is funny, they could mean a lot of different things.
Some of the most brilliant funniest people I know I want nothing to do with personally.
Some of the people I love the most I cherish for a kind of wit that occurs maybe in 30% of our interactions but, when it occurs, is wonderfully insightful even if it isn't LOL ROFL chortle-inducing.
Saying that someone is "funny" or "has a sense of humor" is like saying they are "attractive". Social Science wants it to mean a single measurable thing to everyone, but it just doesn't.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Holding forth in a cynical rant has one purpose.
Telling a long embarrassing story on yourself has another.
Light witty riffing, hot burns, observational wit, absurdist Non sequiturs, pranks: all do different things and have different social effects. (And then there are puns and street jokes, which are never funny, but do endear you to a certain kind of Dad.)
So when someone says they or someone they know is funny, they could mean a lot of different things.
Some of the most brilliant funniest people I know I want nothing to do with personally.
Some of the people I love the most I cherish for a kind of wit that occurs maybe in 30% of our interactions but, when it occurs, is wonderfully insightful even if it isn't LOL ROFL chortle-inducing.
Saying that someone is "funny" or "has a sense of humor" is like saying they are "attractive". Social Science wants it to mean a single measurable thing to everyone, but it just doesn't.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
My point is, and should have been, yes, women have had to downplay their looks because of misogyny towards female comedians. But let's not have the conversation include discussion saying that female comedians used to be unattractive, because its just not true. It's also pretty annoying, because it is not relevant to know which comedians any user here thinks are unattractive or not.
posted by agregoli at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
What about the opposite: Do women not like serious, earnest, or solemn men?
posted by FJT at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by FJT at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The film Why We Laugh touches on how female comedians such as Diller, Joan Rivers, and Lucille Ball had to basically make themselves into zany slapstick non-humans, with the crazy hair and outfits, in order to be taken seriously onstage. They couldn't be pretty or attractive or just stand up there as their regular selves and tell jokes the way men could.
Why We Laugh is a great stand-up comedy documentary. I believe it's on YouTube as well.
posted by JLovebomb at 8:15 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Why We Laugh is a great stand-up comedy documentary. I believe it's on YouTube as well.
posted by JLovebomb at 8:15 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I say I like a man with a sense of humor, and from experience, I can tell you that means I like a man who laughs at my jokes and hijinks as opposed to making his own jokes and hijinks--I've always found guys who try really hard to make me laugh (or make me do anything--I hate the phrase "make [a person] laugh") irritating. I think I've been "the funny one" in almost all of my relationships (in my current one, we both think we are the funny one, though). So right back at you, dudes. Sit there, laugh at my jokes, and make me a sandwich.
posted by millipede at 8:17 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by millipede at 8:17 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
What about the opposite: Do women not like serious, earnest, or solemn men?
Do men like serious, earnest or solemn women? Nope. "Sweetness" is all. Do women like sweet-natured men? Yes, although I would argue that being a sweet-natured man is a more expansive role than being a sweet-natured woman.
There are a small number of people I just completely crack up while barely trying - people who think my least little witticism is absolutely hiLARious. (It's actually weird - I mean, they really, really think I'm funny.) All women except one gay man.
I will be interested to see what happens when [or if, but hopefully when] I actually start hormones and actively transition. Will I suddenly get a lot funnier? I bet a lot more people will think I'm funny.
posted by Frowner at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Do men like serious, earnest or solemn women? Nope. "Sweetness" is all. Do women like sweet-natured men? Yes, although I would argue that being a sweet-natured man is a more expansive role than being a sweet-natured woman.
There are a small number of people I just completely crack up while barely trying - people who think my least little witticism is absolutely hiLARious. (It's actually weird - I mean, they really, really think I'm funny.) All women except one gay man.
I will be interested to see what happens when [or if, but hopefully when] I actually start hormones and actively transition. Will I suddenly get a lot funnier? I bet a lot more people will think I'm funny.
posted by Frowner at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Why We Laugh
Interesting, looks like there's two versions of that, one by Joan Rivers about women in comedy and an earlier one about Black Comedy. Will check it out thanks!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Interesting, looks like there's two versions of that, one by Joan Rivers about women in comedy and an earlier one about Black Comedy. Will check it out thanks!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have to admit, I think Sarah Silverman is gorgeous, smart and hilariously funny, but I have no doubt that if you were her boyfriend and got in a fight with her, she would eviscerate your self-esteem to the point of suicide within minutes.
posted by fungible at 8:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by fungible at 8:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
There is a certain subset of men that just don't *get* my jokes. And while I'm not a laugh riot, most everyone laughs at my jokes except for that certain subset that doesn't even seem to realize that I'm joking. It is, honestly, a total delight.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:23 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:23 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have no doubt that if you were her boyfriend and got in a fight with her, she would eviscerate your self-esteem to the point of suicide within minutes.
Try being two comedians in a relationship. Funny people are often cursed with the inability to shut up when they KNOW they should shut up.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Try being two comedians in a relationship. Funny people are often cursed with the inability to shut up when they KNOW they should shut up.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
What about the opposite: Do women not like serious, earnest, or solemn men?
Life is so inherently absurd that it's hard for me personally to feel close to someone who can't perceive that and also laugh at it. I can admire a person who is always serious, provided they are an ethical person, but I can't really "get" them and they mostly find my attempts to poke fun at existence annoying.
But I am sure there are women who get along better with serious types.
posted by emjaybee at 8:28 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Life is so inherently absurd that it's hard for me personally to feel close to someone who can't perceive that and also laugh at it. I can admire a person who is always serious, provided they are an ethical person, but I can't really "get" them and they mostly find my attempts to poke fun at existence annoying.
But I am sure there are women who get along better with serious types.
posted by emjaybee at 8:28 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
incredibly strong people that are very fragile and broken inside, but able to keep that shit together like no other
aka desired end state of toxic masculinity
posted by conic at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
aka desired end state of toxic masculinity
posted by conic at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is a certain subset of men that just don't *get* my jokes. And while I'm not a laugh riot, most everyone laughs at my jokes except for that certain subset that doesn't even seem to realize that I'm joking. It is, honestly, a total delight.
I grew up an extremely shy child. And young adult. And adu... uh anyway, I finally realized that part of faking it until you make it is to stop giving a fuck if someone doesn't get your joke, you like your jokes and most people seem to like your jokes.
It blew my fucking mind.
I'm much happier, and people still like my jokes. And yeah, some people have a total humor equivalent to color-blindness.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I grew up an extremely shy child. And young adult. And adu... uh anyway, I finally realized that part of faking it until you make it is to stop giving a fuck if someone doesn't get your joke, you like your jokes and most people seem to like your jokes.
It blew my fucking mind.
I'm much happier, and people still like my jokes. And yeah, some people have a total humor equivalent to color-blindness.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
There is a certain subset of men that just don't *get* my jokes. And while I'm not a laugh riot, most everyone laughs at my jokes except for that certain subset that doesn't even seem to realize that I'm joking. It is, honestly, a total delight.
1) You are totally a laugh riot and being around you is a blast.
2) YES I know EXACTLY what you mean! I saw this tweet recently and it perfectly describes my relationship with some men. It is absolutely amazing that they are so un-self-aware that they honest to God really believe I am that interested in the dopey but confident nonsense they spew (boy are they sure they're right about everything!) and if I make a game of listening to them and seeing how outlandishly fawning I can be while they still take my interest seriously we both have a great time and it's a win for everyone. It really is a performance art piece done by me.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:33 AM on November 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
1) You are totally a laugh riot and being around you is a blast.
2) YES I know EXACTLY what you mean! I saw this tweet recently and it perfectly describes my relationship with some men. It is absolutely amazing that they are so un-self-aware that they honest to God really believe I am that interested in the dopey but confident nonsense they spew (boy are they sure they're right about everything!) and if I make a game of listening to them and seeing how outlandishly fawning I can be while they still take my interest seriously we both have a great time and it's a win for everyone. It really is a performance art piece done by me.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:33 AM on November 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
I was a professor and I am a woman and my students loved the fuck out of my humor.
Contrasting anecdote: I get complaints that I am not funny from male students. Female students, OTOH, praise my humor in class.
posted by TwoStride at 8:37 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Contrasting anecdote: I get complaints that I am not funny from male students. Female students, OTOH, praise my humor in class.
posted by TwoStride at 8:37 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I don't fucking care if you like it."
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
And then there are puns … which are never funny
Pistols at dawn!
posted by wemayfreeze at 8:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pistols at dawn!
posted by wemayfreeze at 8:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
What about the opposite: Do women not like serious, earnest, or solemn men?
Two words: Fitzwilliam. Darcy.
Boom.
posted by bgal81 at 8:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Two words: Fitzwilliam. Darcy.
Boom.
posted by bgal81 at 8:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Being funny often involves being brash, using impolite language, taking swipes at (hopefully deserving) people or institutions or ideas
Humor is an expression of strength.
Hmm, but what about self-deprecatory humor? In general social situations that's kind of my preference since I'm still "reading my audience" and it's better not to be impolite or offend people when you're still in the period of getting to know them. And even after I do, I still fall to self-deprecatory humor because it's just not nice to make fun of other people.
posted by FJT at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2015
Humor is an expression of strength.
Hmm, but what about self-deprecatory humor? In general social situations that's kind of my preference since I'm still "reading my audience" and it's better not to be impolite or offend people when you're still in the period of getting to know them. And even after I do, I still fall to self-deprecatory humor because it's just not nice to make fun of other people.
posted by FJT at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2015
And then there are puns … which are never funny
Pistols at dawn!
Funny, I never took you two for dualists.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:44 AM on November 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Pistols at dawn!
Funny, I never took you two for dualists.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:44 AM on November 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
The funniest male comics (to my 35 year-old "life transformed into fatherhood over the past 8 years" ass) are self-deprecating about their appearance on the regular.
So I'm a straight dude and it can be hard for me to judge which men are hot and which aren't*, and could make errors here. But on the one hand you have dudes who seem to me to be actually pretty schlubby and plain, like Louis CK and Patton Oswalt, choosing to make light of their appearance because it's good for a gag. But maybe most people who are into dudes would look at pictures of CK or Oswalt and think they super-hot even if all they knew about them were their picture; I dunno.
On the other side, you have insanely gorgeous and magnetically charismatic people like Janeane Garofalo who at least seem to feel that they have to consistently downplay and denigrate their appearance (whether for effect or sincerely).
Anyhoo, this seems like not the same thing to me.
*Excepting those dudes like Idris Elba or Tom Jones who exist beyond mortal concerns of sexual orientation.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
So I'm a straight dude and it can be hard for me to judge which men are hot and which aren't*, and could make errors here. But on the one hand you have dudes who seem to me to be actually pretty schlubby and plain, like Louis CK and Patton Oswalt, choosing to make light of their appearance because it's good for a gag. But maybe most people who are into dudes would look at pictures of CK or Oswalt and think they super-hot even if all they knew about them were their picture; I dunno.
On the other side, you have insanely gorgeous and magnetically charismatic people like Janeane Garofalo who at least seem to feel that they have to consistently downplay and denigrate their appearance (whether for effect or sincerely).
Anyhoo, this seems like not the same thing to me.
*Excepting those dudes like Idris Elba or Tom Jones who exist beyond mortal concerns of sexual orientation.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
so I had a crush on Janeane Garofalo when I was a kid too, but I'm also wondering if "Well I don't know about the rest of the guys but I find women in comedy super sexy!" is the greatest response to the issues discussed here...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:46 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:46 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
I have to say, reading this article was a bit like being punched in the jaw. I know that men in the aggregate aren’t doing this intentionally or maliciously, but to hear, yet again, that what most men subconsciously want is a pretty, warm, and passive audience/mirror/admirer instead of a partner is really miserable. (Not talking to or about anyone here, obviously.)
In A Room of One’s Own, Woolf even touches on how violently some men react to any notion of women having satirical natures--
In A Room of One’s Own, Woolf even touches on how violently some men react to any notion of women having satirical natures--
Women have served all these centuries as looking-glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size.posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [56 favorites]
...
Whatever may be their use in civilized societies, mirrors are essential to all violent and heroic action. That is why Napoleon and Mussolini both insist so emphatically upon the inferiority of women, for if they were not inferior, they would cease to enlarge. That serves to explain in part the necessity that women so often are to men. And it serves to explain how restless they are under her criticism; how impossible it is for her to say to them this book is bad, this picture is feeble, or whatever it may be, without giving far more pain and rousing far more anger than a man would do who gave the same criticism. For if she begins to tell the truth, the figure in the looking-glass shrinks; his fitness for life is diminished. How is he to go on giving judgement, civilizing natives, making laws, writing books, dressing up and speechifying at banquets, unless he can see himself at breakfast and at dinner at least twice the size he really is?
So I reflected, crumbling my bread and stirring my coffee and now and again looking at the people in the street. The looking-glass vision is of supreme importance because it charges the vitality; it stimulates the nervous system. Take it away and man may die, like the drug fiend deprived of his cocaine. Under the spell of that illusion, I thought, looking out of the window, half the people on the pavement are striding to work. They put on their hats and coats in the morning under its agreeable rays. They start the day confident, braced, believing themselves desired at Miss Smith’s tea party; they say to themselves as they go into the room, I am the superior of half the people here, and it is thus that they speak with that self-confidence, that self-assurance, which have had such profound consequences in public life and lead to such curious notes in the margin of the private mind.
The article hypothesizes that a person's funniness is a proxy for judging their intelligence, and also cites evidence that many men prefer women who are less intelligent than they are.
So I wonder if women who crack wise simply intimidate many men—because being funny demonstrates intelligence, and that makes men feel like they're less worthy of that particular woman. Don't underestimate the power of male insecurity, especially in romantic contexts.
Heh. I travel a lot and my favorite, time tested way of getting guys on airplanes to not hit on me is to mention I'm a theoretical physicist. (I'm not.) It's so sad and horrible that it works so well. My second favorite way is to tell a joke.
But I'd change that to any context, and I absolutely use humor to take advantage of those insecurities. When I'm in a new work situation among a group of guys, I find the quickest way to gauge how well I will be treated as an equal member of the team - how well I'll be listened to, how much my opinions and ideas will matter, how much sexist bullshit I'll be subject to as well as sexual harassment - is to make a small joke (at an appropriate moment when EVERYONE is making jokes and laughing). I have a favorite one that works well and I know is funny. If a lot of guys laugh I breath a sigh of relief. The more silent the group is pretty much equivalent to how fucking awful it's going to be.
posted by barchan at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
So I wonder if women who crack wise simply intimidate many men—because being funny demonstrates intelligence, and that makes men feel like they're less worthy of that particular woman. Don't underestimate the power of male insecurity, especially in romantic contexts.
Heh. I travel a lot and my favorite, time tested way of getting guys on airplanes to not hit on me is to mention I'm a theoretical physicist. (I'm not.) It's so sad and horrible that it works so well. My second favorite way is to tell a joke.
But I'd change that to any context, and I absolutely use humor to take advantage of those insecurities. When I'm in a new work situation among a group of guys, I find the quickest way to gauge how well I will be treated as an equal member of the team - how well I'll be listened to, how much my opinions and ideas will matter, how much sexist bullshit I'll be subject to as well as sexual harassment - is to make a small joke (at an appropriate moment when EVERYONE is making jokes and laughing). I have a favorite one that works well and I know is funny. If a lot of guys laugh I breath a sigh of relief. The more silent the group is pretty much equivalent to how fucking awful it's going to be.
posted by barchan at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
Elizabeth is actually an excellent example of a bright, funny woman who sees through the absurdity of things and almost no one appreciates her for it. Except her father, who has retreated from the world, a path she decides against and finds irresponsible.
Darcy gets that she is honorable and intelligent and trustworthy, things in short supply in his world, and pretty to boot. Once he gets over himself, he snatches her up. He probably knows that she's actually smarter than him (or at least cleverer; he's undoubtedly more educated) but he prefers that to the simpering/malicious women he's usually surrounded with. He himself is fairly serious, but you get the impression he is the type of guy who mostly just needs better friends that he can relax and be happy with.
posted by emjaybee at 8:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
Darcy gets that she is honorable and intelligent and trustworthy, things in short supply in his world, and pretty to boot. Once he gets over himself, he snatches her up. He probably knows that she's actually smarter than him (or at least cleverer; he's undoubtedly more educated) but he prefers that to the simpering/malicious women he's usually surrounded with. He himself is fairly serious, but you get the impression he is the type of guy who mostly just needs better friends that he can relax and be happy with.
posted by emjaybee at 8:52 AM on November 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
“You’re pretty, but you’re like … goofy. It makes no sense.”
To be fair, I wouldn't have sex with goofy either. Daisy Duck on the other hand...
posted by Smedleyman at 8:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be fair, I wouldn't have sex with goofy either. Daisy Duck on the other hand...
posted by Smedleyman at 8:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
almost no one appreciates her for it
But that is the entire plot of Lizzy/Darcy?? He falls for her wit. All her quiet ice cold burns at Netherfield while Jane is sick are what makes him fall so hard for her, and even moreso at Longborough. He runs away from her neighborhood because he's afraid he's going to accidentally propose in a dizzy haze of yearning for her sly humor, and then he DOES accidentally propose while she's staying with the Collinses.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
But that is the entire plot of Lizzy/Darcy?? He falls for her wit. All her quiet ice cold burns at Netherfield while Jane is sick are what makes him fall so hard for her, and even moreso at Longborough. He runs away from her neighborhood because he's afraid he's going to accidentally propose in a dizzy haze of yearning for her sly humor, and then he DOES accidentally propose while she's staying with the Collinses.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
a fiendish thingy, there are many long drunken discussion to be had on this that would take us totally off-topic, so all I can say is..I would probably need to read it again to be sure. Possibly? We don't get nearly as much insight into his mind as hers. Next time I read it, I'll see what I think.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Despite the #notallmefimen going on here, I'd still say a majority of men value subservience and support way over anything else in a marriage. Indeed, many guys marry the women that is the least threatening and most likely to do all the parenting work (e.g. the recent fpp about living with two kids in a sf studio all from the husbands POV).
posted by benzenedream at 9:06 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 9:06 AM on November 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
FJT: Exactly! Another thing that I think Social Science gets wrong about comedy is taking Hitchens word for it about the transaction of laughter. In some ways and cases it seems to be about forcing a change of expression, but at heart I think it's about creating joy which is a service not a demand.
Maybe it's because I spend 99% of my time with my kid trying to get her to laugh. It's not a show of strength at all. Where's the dominance in me hiding behind the couch and making a stuffed dolphin wear swim goggles? And hell she is funny too. What evo psych purpose is served by her singing Happy Birthday to a box? She's just doing it because that shit is hilarious and she knows it, me laughing is just the effect. The way psychologists talk about laughter is like someone studying basketball and acting like the purpose of shooting is to make the net go SWISH.
Comedy is its own reward, the social element of "making" someone we're attracted laugh is just some newfangled development based on the loss of historical class hierarchies or something IDK. Who cares? Comedy is a demonstration of the absurdity of the world. Its result is joy in all conscious beings who can observe it, including dogs and fish (jury still out on cats).
Obviously in that formulation all people can partake of it in whatever form they choose. Not all uses of it are benign, in the same way that pleasing chord progressions can be used for whatever purpose. Some choose to spike their political commentary with it, some use it to further their careers, some do it for money in rooms full of strangers.
I just spent a while writing this comment and now I don't know what my point is. I guess it's: Please don't blame comedy for the shitty ways that dudes try to use it to boost their own egos or differentiate themselves from women. If anything, it gives us the perfect response.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:06 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Maybe it's because I spend 99% of my time with my kid trying to get her to laugh. It's not a show of strength at all. Where's the dominance in me hiding behind the couch and making a stuffed dolphin wear swim goggles? And hell she is funny too. What evo psych purpose is served by her singing Happy Birthday to a box? She's just doing it because that shit is hilarious and she knows it, me laughing is just the effect. The way psychologists talk about laughter is like someone studying basketball and acting like the purpose of shooting is to make the net go SWISH.
Comedy is its own reward, the social element of "making" someone we're attracted laugh is just some newfangled development based on the loss of historical class hierarchies or something IDK. Who cares? Comedy is a demonstration of the absurdity of the world. Its result is joy in all conscious beings who can observe it, including dogs and fish (jury still out on cats).
Obviously in that formulation all people can partake of it in whatever form they choose. Not all uses of it are benign, in the same way that pleasing chord progressions can be used for whatever purpose. Some choose to spike their political commentary with it, some use it to further their careers, some do it for money in rooms full of strangers.
I just spent a while writing this comment and now I don't know what my point is. I guess it's: Please don't blame comedy for the shitty ways that dudes try to use it to boost their own egos or differentiate themselves from women. If anything, it gives us the perfect response.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:06 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Now I really want a version with Mr. Darcy singing "Meow meow meow" while dressing up the cats.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:07 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:07 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is so much about being funny. I disagree with the statement that "Funniness" is a proxy for intelligence. Much more consistently so, it is a rough proxy for confidence. It takes a confidence to put a joke out there, regardless of whether the joke is intellectual or ignoble.
Many woman find confidence attractive in a man. Some men find confidence intimidating or even unattractive in a woman. This isn't true in all cases, and it's certainly not fair. But I think it is observably common in human behavior, and it relies on using "funny" as just an indicator.
posted by Pliskie at 9:10 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Many woman find confidence attractive in a man. Some men find confidence intimidating or even unattractive in a woman. This isn't true in all cases, and it's certainly not fair. But I think it is observably common in human behavior, and it relies on using "funny" as just an indicator.
posted by Pliskie at 9:10 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Many woman find confidence attractive in a man." Ah, that explains this couple ...
posted by King Sky Prawn at 9:17 AM on November 19, 2015
posted by King Sky Prawn at 9:17 AM on November 19, 2015
so I had a crush on Janeane Garofalo when I was a kid too, but I'm also wondering if "Well I don't know about the rest of the guys but I find women in comedy super sexy!" is the greatest response to the issues discussed here...
That's not what I meant but can see how you would see it that way.
Retry:
Male comedians making light of their appearance is not the same as women for two reasons.
One, male comedians, AFAICT, really are pretty schlubby. This is less important.
The second and more important thing is that I think there's a difference in tone and content. Louis CK making light of his appearance seems like he's just using some obvious material. When women do it, it feels to me more mandatory, like they have to defuse their attractiveness or charisma before it's okay to laugh at their jokes. In the same way that women in comedy seem to rely much more strongly on self-deprecating jokes about severe personal dysfunction; it's okay to laugh at my jokes because I am an unthreatening disaster.
tl;dr you can see the patriarchy crushing women in standup in ways that at least happen a lot less to men because women have to also be harmless
But anyway, yeah, I said that not-so-well and am probably not being clear now either because my thoughts aren't clear. I'll stop digging the hole after this.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's not what I meant but can see how you would see it that way.
Retry:
Male comedians making light of their appearance is not the same as women for two reasons.
One, male comedians, AFAICT, really are pretty schlubby. This is less important.
The second and more important thing is that I think there's a difference in tone and content. Louis CK making light of his appearance seems like he's just using some obvious material. When women do it, it feels to me more mandatory, like they have to defuse their attractiveness or charisma before it's okay to laugh at their jokes. In the same way that women in comedy seem to rely much more strongly on self-deprecating jokes about severe personal dysfunction; it's okay to laugh at my jokes because I am an unthreatening disaster.
tl;dr you can see the patriarchy crushing women in standup in ways that at least happen a lot less to men because women have to also be harmless
But anyway, yeah, I said that not-so-well and am probably not being clear now either because my thoughts aren't clear. I'll stop digging the hole after this.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Anecdote before too many single women get depressed as fuck by this finding: the men I've dated (and the one I'm married to) have told me repeatedly I'm among the funniest people they've ever met, and that's one of the things they like about me.
True, some men are sadly stuck in ye old "Men do things; women appreciate men doing things" mode of thinking. I've found that younger men are more open to a "Men and women both do things, and that's awesome" mode of thinking. I think the increasing visibility of female comics is a great boon to everyone-- seeing lots of women be funny shows women that it's cool to be funny, and men that it's cool when women are funny.
TL; DR: if you're a lady, there will be people who don't like you or are intimidated by you. Fuck them. Find the other people. They're out there.
posted by airguitar2 at 9:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
True, some men are sadly stuck in ye old "Men do things; women appreciate men doing things" mode of thinking. I've found that younger men are more open to a "Men and women both do things, and that's awesome" mode of thinking. I think the increasing visibility of female comics is a great boon to everyone-- seeing lots of women be funny shows women that it's cool to be funny, and men that it's cool when women are funny.
TL; DR: if you're a lady, there will be people who don't like you or are intimidated by you. Fuck them. Find the other people. They're out there.
posted by airguitar2 at 9:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
This is the crux of the statistical evidence, and speaks to the basics. Men want to disarm women, and women want to make sure the men are unarmed. Universals are old, old business, archetypal. Expansiveness, humor, in men speaks about security to laugh, slack to enjoy life, likelihood of kindness to children. Receptiveness to humor in the women means also the ability to know and strive for joy in living. Both of these attributes make an environment for smart offspring. The continuous firing of the fight or flight mechanism is ultimately dulling and causes illness. Joy is a positive indicator for long life. The masculine defenses have to come down first, that is the safe signal, followed by laughter.
We are changing as a species, but it takes generations of security and joy to wire it in, as a more common set of automatic behaviors or potentials. Female humor in mixed company is a new business that follows mixed company as new business a couple of generations ago.
Please don't hurt me.
posted by Oyéah at 9:24 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is the crux of the statistical evidence, and speaks to the basics. Men want to disarm women, and women want to make sure the men are unarmed. Universals are old, old business, archetypal. Expansiveness, humor, in men speaks about security to laugh, slack to enjoy life, likelihood of kindness to children. Receptiveness to humor in the women means also the ability to know and strive for joy in living. Both of these attributes make an environment for smart offspring. The continuous firing of the fight or flight mechanism is ultimately dulling and causes illness. Joy is a positive indicator for long life. The masculine defenses have to come down first, that is the safe signal, followed by laughter.
We are changing as a species, but it takes generations of security and joy to wire it in, as a more common set of automatic behaviors or potentials. Female humor in mixed company is a new business that follows mixed company as new business a couple of generations ago.
Please don't hurt me.
posted by Oyéah at 9:24 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
An on-going joy in my marriage is that I can make my husband laugh and smile, and he can make me laugh and smile. It's not easy maintaining a long-term relationship and things have been rough at times but our mutual appreciation of our humor brings a lot of warmth.
I'm always confused by discussions about humor - like when people have all these rules, Puns are never funny, humor is about power or cruelty. I don't even understand having rules about humor because it's such an in the moment thing to me.
And of course as a woman who considers herself funny, I've always puzzled over message like women aren't funny, or pretty women aren't funny, like? What? How can people's brains even make thoughts in that particular shape?
My sense of humor tends towards wry, silly, sometimes snarky. I use it to make connections, amuse other people, see people smile, put people at ease. Any person (of any kind) who really thinks women can't be funny or only ugly women can be funny is a person that I don't ever, ever want anywhere near me. These are the sorts of people, with their twisted rules, that I fashion my life to avoid.
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:36 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm always confused by discussions about humor - like when people have all these rules, Puns are never funny, humor is about power or cruelty. I don't even understand having rules about humor because it's such an in the moment thing to me.
And of course as a woman who considers herself funny, I've always puzzled over message like women aren't funny, or pretty women aren't funny, like? What? How can people's brains even make thoughts in that particular shape?
My sense of humor tends towards wry, silly, sometimes snarky. I use it to make connections, amuse other people, see people smile, put people at ease. Any person (of any kind) who really thinks women can't be funny or only ugly women can be funny is a person that I don't ever, ever want anywhere near me. These are the sorts of people, with their twisted rules, that I fashion my life to avoid.
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:36 AM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
airguitar2: "TL; DR: if you're a lady, there will be people who don't like you or are intimidated by you. Fuck them. Find the other people. They're out there."
Parse this advice carefully...
posted by chavenet at 9:43 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Parse this advice carefully...
posted by chavenet at 9:43 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Female humor in mixed company is a new business that follows mixed company as new business a couple of generations ago.
If by "new" you mean hundreds of years old, and by "a couple generations" you mean at least ten generations, then I can kind of see your point?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:43 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
If by "new" you mean hundreds of years old, and by "a couple generations" you mean at least ten generations, then I can kind of see your point?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:43 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
So is this a thing that exists in all cultures or is this article doing the thing where we look at our own little bubble of modern western society and assume it MUST be universal? The only cross-cultural study was on rankings of how important humor was in a partner, and it didn't even state which countries were sampled.
posted by picklenickle at 9:47 AM on November 19, 2015
posted by picklenickle at 9:47 AM on November 19, 2015
I was surprised to see the author invoke Evo Psych in this piece.
Darn, I was hoping you were talking about a comedian who was using "Evo Psych" as her stage name.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on November 19, 2015
Darn, I was hoping you were talking about a comedian who was using "Evo Psych" as her stage name.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on November 19, 2015
Hello it is I Eve Psych, are you ready to submit to my will and contort your face structures in a primal display of submissiveness? So what else is in the news...
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:02 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Behold the 2016 Mitsubishi Lancer EVO Psych: powered by bullshit.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
the worst relationships I've had were with men who liked that I was funny at first but when it started to seem like I would always be the funnier one of the two of us...well, then they didn't like that so much.
This is totally a thing. The two funniest women I know both have strings of failed relationships that got either abusive or just incredibly toxic and shitty within a month. Sometimes before they were even officially "dating". It's a magnet for shitty guys who like the idea but still want to be in control/the "cool" one. It's as if they like the idea of having a funny partner as an accessory, but once they're actually outshined they flip out.
I also think part of it is that they both project confidence. Which is both part of what you need to be willing to try and be funny, and a threat. The same guys are attracted to the confidence and then threatened by it.
Ugh.
posted by emptythought at 10:16 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is totally a thing. The two funniest women I know both have strings of failed relationships that got either abusive or just incredibly toxic and shitty within a month. Sometimes before they were even officially "dating". It's a magnet for shitty guys who like the idea but still want to be in control/the "cool" one. It's as if they like the idea of having a funny partner as an accessory, but once they're actually outshined they flip out.
I also think part of it is that they both project confidence. Which is both part of what you need to be willing to try and be funny, and a threat. The same guys are attracted to the confidence and then threatened by it.
Ugh.
posted by emptythought at 10:16 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
...male comedians, AFAICT, really are pretty schlubby.
But even the ones who aren’t can make a considerable thing about their physical “defects” — Bob Hope’s endless jokes about his nose come to mind (I mean the young, good looking Bob Hope not the old man). It is often different for women, but it’s not simple to tease apart in the case of humor because of the confounding fact that a huge amount of humor, male and female, about looks and otherwise, is self deprecation.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
But even the ones who aren’t can make a considerable thing about their physical “defects” — Bob Hope’s endless jokes about his nose come to mind (I mean the young, good looking Bob Hope not the old man). It is often different for women, but it’s not simple to tease apart in the case of humor because of the confounding fact that a huge amount of humor, male and female, about looks and otherwise, is self deprecation.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The same guys are attracted to the confidence and then threatened by it.
As well as those guys who are "attracted" by confidence because they want to destroy it.
posted by barchan at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
As well as those guys who are "attracted" by confidence because they want to destroy it.
posted by barchan at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
You know where comedy goes to die? Sitcoms, and not just because of the patronizing HERE IS THE FUNNY PART laugh tracks. It's the different ways men and women in sitcoms are permitted to be funny, and how these types of funny are tied into their sex appeal.
Like, how many sitcoms can you think of that pair up a schlubby dude with a conventionally attractive woman who seems damn near required to stand by him with a kind of "oh, you" sighing tolerance for his repeated fuckups? Yes, his fuckups and schlubbiness are a part of the joke, but the underlying moral is that a guy should be allowed to repeatedly fuck it up, because any woman with "a sense of humor" will be able to laugh it off with a shrug, because he's a great guy deep down.
Granted, you could argue that looking past appearances and having some level of tolerance for human frailty are good traits in a partner, and I'd agree. What makes the messaging so sexist is that the conventionally "unattractive" funny woman in a sitcom is usually the sidekick. And even when she's the protag, she is only rarely treated to the same level of Seeing The Beauty Within that her male analog is. Occasionally, some stunningly handsome dude will fall for her - and that itself is milked for comedy value.
The funny woman who makes mistakes and gives no fucks is, in the world of sitcoms, a part of the supporting cast; the funny man who makes mistakes and gives no fucks is the template sitcom protagonist.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
Like, how many sitcoms can you think of that pair up a schlubby dude with a conventionally attractive woman who seems damn near required to stand by him with a kind of "oh, you" sighing tolerance for his repeated fuckups? Yes, his fuckups and schlubbiness are a part of the joke, but the underlying moral is that a guy should be allowed to repeatedly fuck it up, because any woman with "a sense of humor" will be able to laugh it off with a shrug, because he's a great guy deep down.
Granted, you could argue that looking past appearances and having some level of tolerance for human frailty are good traits in a partner, and I'd agree. What makes the messaging so sexist is that the conventionally "unattractive" funny woman in a sitcom is usually the sidekick. And even when she's the protag, she is only rarely treated to the same level of Seeing The Beauty Within that her male analog is. Occasionally, some stunningly handsome dude will fall for her - and that itself is milked for comedy value.
The funny woman who makes mistakes and gives no fucks is, in the world of sitcoms, a part of the supporting cast; the funny man who makes mistakes and gives no fucks is the template sitcom protagonist.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:22 AM on November 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
is this article doing the thing where we look at our own little bubble of modern western society and assume it MUST be universal?
I don't think so? I may have overlooked it, but I didn't see any suggestion that it's trying to describe all cultures. It's an article in an English-language publication with a US-centric audience, citing US comedians and other events in the contemporary US. Presumably the context is meant to be implicit.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:24 AM on November 19, 2015
I don't think so? I may have overlooked it, but I didn't see any suggestion that it's trying to describe all cultures. It's an article in an English-language publication with a US-centric audience, citing US comedians and other events in the contemporary US. Presumably the context is meant to be implicit.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:24 AM on November 19, 2015
I think she's brilliant and funny, but jesus christ give yourself a break about your looks.
I'm pretty sure the target of Amy Schumer's "Amy Schumer is ugly and/or obsessed about her looks" jokes isn't Amy Schumer.
posted by straight at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [25 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the target of Amy Schumer's "Amy Schumer is ugly and/or obsessed about her looks" jokes isn't Amy Schumer.
posted by straight at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2015 [25 favorites]
(In one of the many New Yorker studies, the students who scored higher on intelligence tests also generated the funniest captions.)
Oh dear.
posted by BWA at 10:38 AM on November 19, 2015
Oh dear.
posted by BWA at 10:38 AM on November 19, 2015
This comment!
When I'm in a new work situation among a group of guys, I find the quickest way to gauge how well I will be treated as an equal member of the team - how well I'll be listened to, how much my opinions and ideas will matter, how much sexist bullshit I'll be subject to as well as sexual harassment - is to make a small joke (at an appropriate moment when EVERYONE is making jokes and laughing). I have a favorite one that works well and I know is funny. If a lot of guys laugh I breath a sigh of relief. The more silent the group is pretty much equivalent to how fucking awful it's going to be.
My humor has also served me as a great litmus test and the above is abundantly true. For me, at a most basic level, if I can't make you laugh, we won't be friends. That goes for men especially but also women, too. A sense of humor – appreciating humor and participating in it – can be a real binder. I'm often a little "off" for some women, surreal humor and ribald wit are my go-to. But, you know, women are fucking hilarious. They are also really adept at feeling the room and keeping that to themselves. Many women need to trust you to let their humor out.
posted by amanda at 10:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
When I'm in a new work situation among a group of guys, I find the quickest way to gauge how well I will be treated as an equal member of the team - how well I'll be listened to, how much my opinions and ideas will matter, how much sexist bullshit I'll be subject to as well as sexual harassment - is to make a small joke (at an appropriate moment when EVERYONE is making jokes and laughing). I have a favorite one that works well and I know is funny. If a lot of guys laugh I breath a sigh of relief. The more silent the group is pretty much equivalent to how fucking awful it's going to be.
My humor has also served me as a great litmus test and the above is abundantly true. For me, at a most basic level, if I can't make you laugh, we won't be friends. That goes for men especially but also women, too. A sense of humor – appreciating humor and participating in it – can be a real binder. I'm often a little "off" for some women, surreal humor and ribald wit are my go-to. But, you know, women are fucking hilarious. They are also really adept at feeling the room and keeping that to themselves. Many women need to trust you to let their humor out.
posted by amanda at 10:41 AM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am SUPER funny but I am sometimes afraid to express it because either people think I am funny (TRUE) but also weird (NOT TRUE SHUT UP) because of the norm violation OR they think I'm not funny and also weird for trying to be funny or they just don't get what I'm saying.
Yes, I always get that thing where people cannot fathom that I'm not always 100% po faced serious. They'll think I'm horrifically delusional or implausibly stupid before it occurs to them that I'm joking.
So, when I'm inclined and have a little bit of time, sometimes I will see how far I can go. Can I convince someone that I literally don't believe in skeletons? That I think New Zealand is a planet, or that, in French, all nouns can technically translate as 'cabbage'? The answer to all these questions is, "Yes. Yes I can."
(The only kind that really makes me uncomfortable is when I tell a self-deprecating joke, and people rush to reassure me. That's pretty uncomfortable sometimes because I inadvertently made them feel bad, and they're being nice. I don't mess with people unless they're being jerks.)
posted by ernielundquist at 10:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yes, I always get that thing where people cannot fathom that I'm not always 100% po faced serious. They'll think I'm horrifically delusional or implausibly stupid before it occurs to them that I'm joking.
So, when I'm inclined and have a little bit of time, sometimes I will see how far I can go. Can I convince someone that I literally don't believe in skeletons? That I think New Zealand is a planet, or that, in French, all nouns can technically translate as 'cabbage'? The answer to all these questions is, "Yes. Yes I can."
(The only kind that really makes me uncomfortable is when I tell a self-deprecating joke, and people rush to reassure me. That's pretty uncomfortable sometimes because I inadvertently made them feel bad, and they're being nice. I don't mess with people unless they're being jerks.)
posted by ernielundquist at 10:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the target of Amy Schumer's "Amy Schumer is ugly and/or obsessed about her looks" jokes isn't Amy Schumer.
Certainly in some contexts, (esp. the brilliant 12 angry men piece) but a fair amount of her stand up seems to trail towards the same sort of thing already discussed in here - self-deprecation about her looks such that she can come off as nonthreatening and acceptable as a comedienne.
posted by Karaage at 11:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Certainly in some contexts, (esp. the brilliant 12 angry men piece) but a fair amount of her stand up seems to trail towards the same sort of thing already discussed in here - self-deprecation about her looks such that she can come off as nonthreatening and acceptable as a comedienne.
posted by Karaage at 11:05 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
My guess is a lot of guys don't want a woman to be funnier than they are (or think they are).
posted by gottabefunky at 11:11 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by gottabefunky at 11:11 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's also funny* for me to consider the kinds of comments on MeFi that make me burst out laughing and wave the screen at whatever hapless passerby hasn't run away fast enough in the context of the genders of the people who make them. Like, when I think about it, sure there are plenty of guys here who are laugh riots--Greg Nog, the Whelk, griphus, prize bull octorok, among others--but there are at least as many women if not more who make these incredibly funny comments that make this community way more fun. Like, barchan, Mrs. Pterodactyl, maryr, poffin boffin, phunnieme, Eyebrows ...and I'm pretty sure that most of us laugh equally at both of 'em.
We have a lot of really funny women here. A lot. And, idek, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that that's a thing I really love about the way that this site does humor, and also thinking about why that's the case. Is it just that usernames make it less evident at first glance what someone's name is, before you have a chance to get to know 'em? Is it that there are lots of women and lots of men here, and the response from other women makes it less scary to make a go?
*see what I did there, hurr hurr
posted by sciatrix at 11:15 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
We have a lot of really funny women here. A lot. And, idek, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that that's a thing I really love about the way that this site does humor, and also thinking about why that's the case. Is it just that usernames make it less evident at first glance what someone's name is, before you have a chance to get to know 'em? Is it that there are lots of women and lots of men here, and the response from other women makes it less scary to make a go?
*see what I did there, hurr hurr
posted by sciatrix at 11:15 AM on November 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
I wonder how this all connects to the existence of so-called "Dad Humor": i.e. lightweight puns and gentle wordplay that makes the wife and kids groan. It's a known form of mens' humor, enough to have its own name and identity.
It may be that Dad Humor (DH) is gentler because it has a different goal from single guy humor. Single-guy humor is about demonstrating to a potential mate (or potential one-night-stand) your cleverness, social status, and other desirable qualities that the guy hopes are attractive to women. So it's got put downs, barbs, criticisms, cynicism. Far more edge and darkness and competitiveness than dad humor.
Dad humor is gentler because it has less to prove. It's more about keeping the kids distracted and entertained, and building and sustaining family bonds.
posted by theorique at 11:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
It may be that Dad Humor (DH) is gentler because it has a different goal from single guy humor. Single-guy humor is about demonstrating to a potential mate (or potential one-night-stand) your cleverness, social status, and other desirable qualities that the guy hopes are attractive to women. So it's got put downs, barbs, criticisms, cynicism. Far more edge and darkness and competitiveness than dad humor.
Dad humor is gentler because it has less to prove. It's more about keeping the kids distracted and entertained, and building and sustaining family bonds.
posted by theorique at 11:56 AM on November 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the target of Amy Schumer's "Amy Schumer is ugly and/or obsessed about her looks" jokes isn't Amy Schumer.
Yea seriously. You don't have to look very far on the shitty parts of the Internet to find people saying essentially "Amy Schumer isn't funny because she's fat and ugly". A lot of times they don't even qualify it, that's the entire content of their post. Occasionally there's also "and makes dumb feminist jokes" but it's usually just not funny because ugly.
Which of course comes from the same people who would go "people only like her. because girl" if they thought she was attractive. Without a hint or irony or introspection.
posted by emptythought at 12:34 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yea seriously. You don't have to look very far on the shitty parts of the Internet to find people saying essentially "Amy Schumer isn't funny because she's fat and ugly". A lot of times they don't even qualify it, that's the entire content of their post. Occasionally there's also "and makes dumb feminist jokes" but it's usually just not funny because ugly.
Which of course comes from the same people who would go "people only like her. because girl" if they thought she was attractive. Without a hint or irony or introspection.
posted by emptythought at 12:34 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: I just spent a while writing this comment and now I don't know what my point is.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:41 PM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Smedleyman at 12:41 PM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I cannot find the citation but I remember attending a presentation about (in part) a study in which a group of boys and a group of girls were presented with a game with a flawed rule. The separate groups each played the game until the flaw emerged and they had to stop. What was interesting was how each group solved the problem. The boy groups argued about it until either the biggest or the funniest boy's solution prevailed. Then the group played the game per what this leader had decided. The girls argued until they either reached a consensus on how to play the game, or to abandon it. That's a really interesting gender difference.
For boys/men, whether socialized into it or not, I think humor demonstrates intelligence and it is a pretty standard item of leadership equipment. I notice that boys/men test each other with humorous comments too, and judge each other on ability to joust verbally in response. And, a lot of men I know use humor as a way to manage difficult emotions like anger and fear and grief.
I think there are certainly plenty of sexist reasons why sexist men prefer their women as attentive audiences, not equal players in the humor or any arena, but I also think women don't always use or view humor the same way men do. I very rarely see women use humor as a way to establish leadership, as a competitive technique, or to mask emotion. More commonly, humor is a way to find common ground, self-deprecate, get light and silly, lighten up a difficult situation, or cloak criticism or complaint e.g. about sexism.
I'm a woman who deploys humor quite a bit, and I love the fact that my husband finds me funny, but I do tend to be careful about sarcasm with men I like, even him, because I think many men experience humor as aggressive and cutting.
posted by bearwife at 1:18 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
For boys/men, whether socialized into it or not, I think humor demonstrates intelligence and it is a pretty standard item of leadership equipment. I notice that boys/men test each other with humorous comments too, and judge each other on ability to joust verbally in response. And, a lot of men I know use humor as a way to manage difficult emotions like anger and fear and grief.
I think there are certainly plenty of sexist reasons why sexist men prefer their women as attentive audiences, not equal players in the humor or any arena, but I also think women don't always use or view humor the same way men do. I very rarely see women use humor as a way to establish leadership, as a competitive technique, or to mask emotion. More commonly, humor is a way to find common ground, self-deprecate, get light and silly, lighten up a difficult situation, or cloak criticism or complaint e.g. about sexism.
I'm a woman who deploys humor quite a bit, and I love the fact that my husband finds me funny, but I do tend to be careful about sarcasm with men I like, even him, because I think many men experience humor as aggressive and cutting.
posted by bearwife at 1:18 PM on November 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
a fair amount of her stand up seems to trail towards the same sort of thing already discussed in here - self-deprecation about her looks such that she can come off as nonthreatening and acceptable as a comedienne
I dunno—I've always gotten the sense that, at least in part, much of Schumer's schtick around her looks (and her sexuality, and her femininity, and gender politics, and so forth) is meant to leave you wondering exactly where she's coming from. To some extent, the Amy Schumer we see on stage is a character she's playing. I always find myself parsing her jokes from multiple perspectives: the perspective of Amy-the-character (the blithely self-absorbed, entitled, overgrown sorority lush), of Amy-the-real-person (and the smart, self-aware feminist I know her to be), and a couple different levels of irony and satire stemming from the above (is she ribbing herself? her character? what people expect her to be as a female comedian? patriarchy? pop feminism? the audience and their assumptions?). Some of her best jokes reveal meaning from more than one of these perspectives. She'll often tell a joke, and there'll be a beat of bemused silence while the audience tries to work out which of these angles they're supposed to be looking it from, before bursting into laughter. And that tension and ambiguity itself is funny. At least, that's my take.
A certain bro-ish dude of my acquaintance thinks her act is just "LOL look at what a pottymouthed slut I am". But that's just the surface of it. I'm probably not articulating it well, but I find her delightfully subversive, and I hope some of the feminist subtext that's layered into her routine makes it into mass consciousness.
God, apparently I'm a fanboy.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:26 PM on November 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
I dunno—I've always gotten the sense that, at least in part, much of Schumer's schtick around her looks (and her sexuality, and her femininity, and gender politics, and so forth) is meant to leave you wondering exactly where she's coming from. To some extent, the Amy Schumer we see on stage is a character she's playing. I always find myself parsing her jokes from multiple perspectives: the perspective of Amy-the-character (the blithely self-absorbed, entitled, overgrown sorority lush), of Amy-the-real-person (and the smart, self-aware feminist I know her to be), and a couple different levels of irony and satire stemming from the above (is she ribbing herself? her character? what people expect her to be as a female comedian? patriarchy? pop feminism? the audience and their assumptions?). Some of her best jokes reveal meaning from more than one of these perspectives. She'll often tell a joke, and there'll be a beat of bemused silence while the audience tries to work out which of these angles they're supposed to be looking it from, before bursting into laughter. And that tension and ambiguity itself is funny. At least, that's my take.
A certain bro-ish dude of my acquaintance thinks her act is just "LOL look at what a pottymouthed slut I am". But that's just the surface of it. I'm probably not articulating it well, but I find her delightfully subversive, and I hope some of the feminist subtext that's layered into her routine makes it into mass consciousness.
God, apparently I'm a fanboy.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:26 PM on November 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
Yea seriously. You don't have to look very far on the shitty parts of the Internet to find people saying essentially "Amy Schumer isn't funny because she's fat and ugly". A lot of times they don't even qualify it, that's the entire content of their post. Occasionally there's also "and makes dumb feminist jokes" but it's usually just not funny because ugly.
Another yes to this. I'm guessing people like Amy Schumer and Janeane Garofalo would like to not have a huge proportion of their comedy be based on how fat or ugly they are - they have to do that. Women can't be pretty and funny and smart all at the same time. So for women comedians (funny) to succeed they have to cut out one of the other things. For some, it's jokes about how ugly they are (not pretty but funny), with some it's falling back on stereotypes about being dumb or ditzy (pretty but not smart). Women who are pretty and smart are society's non-comediannes (not funny). If you're a woman who finds that she is gifted with the ability to make other people laugh, and you also happen to fit conventional beauty standards and be intelligent, you probably need to find a way to nix the beauty, intelligence or both to succeed in comedy. There are probably a few exceptions (Sarah Silverman) but they seem to be rare.
posted by triggerfinger at 1:36 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another yes to this. I'm guessing people like Amy Schumer and Janeane Garofalo would like to not have a huge proportion of their comedy be based on how fat or ugly they are - they have to do that. Women can't be pretty and funny and smart all at the same time. So for women comedians (funny) to succeed they have to cut out one of the other things. For some, it's jokes about how ugly they are (not pretty but funny), with some it's falling back on stereotypes about being dumb or ditzy (pretty but not smart). Women who are pretty and smart are society's non-comediannes (not funny). If you're a woman who finds that she is gifted with the ability to make other people laugh, and you also happen to fit conventional beauty standards and be intelligent, you probably need to find a way to nix the beauty, intelligence or both to succeed in comedy. There are probably a few exceptions (Sarah Silverman) but they seem to be rare.
posted by triggerfinger at 1:36 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dad humor is gentler because it has less to prove. It's more about keeping the kids distracted and entertained, and building and sustaining family bonds.
It's mostly about turning something negative (as a parent, you are old, unhip, and out of touch) and weaponizing it (haha you are trapped with me and my lame Dad Jokes and also I can embarrass you with my fashion choices when we go out).
Moms can tell Dad Jokes too, though less of them will involve "pull my finger."
posted by emjaybee at 1:50 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's mostly about turning something negative (as a parent, you are old, unhip, and out of touch) and weaponizing it (haha you are trapped with me and my lame Dad Jokes and also I can embarrass you with my fashion choices when we go out).
Moms can tell Dad Jokes too, though less of them will involve "pull my finger."
posted by emjaybee at 1:50 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing people like Amy Schumer and Janeane Garofalo would like to not have a huge proportion of their comedy be based on how fat or ugly they are - they have to do that.
I'm genuinely curious - if they dropped those portions of jokes from their act today, what do you think will happen? The vicious attacks will always be there, but I'm not convinced their popularity as comediennes would suddenly drop and they'd be shunned for failing to make jokes about their own looks.
posted by Karaage at 2:13 PM on November 19, 2015
I'm genuinely curious - if they dropped those portions of jokes from their act today, what do you think will happen? The vicious attacks will always be there, but I'm not convinced their popularity as comediennes would suddenly drop and they'd be shunned for failing to make jokes about their own looks.
posted by Karaage at 2:13 PM on November 19, 2015
I simultaneously recognize the truth in this article but also feel compelled to report that the main thing that attracted me to Mrs. Michaels is that she's the most hilarious person I know. In thirty years, she and I will be beautiful in the way old people are beautiful but she's still going to be the most hilarious person I know.
Comedy, people. Its a long term investment.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:00 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Comedy, people. Its a long term investment.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:00 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm genuinely curious - if they dropped those portions of jokes from their act today, what do you think will happen? The vicious attacks will always be there, but I'm not convinced their popularity as comediennes would suddenly drop and they'd be shunned for failing to make jokes about their own looks.
I don't think they would either, but at this point they're both pretty well established and I don't think this would be the case for any woman just starting out in comedy. I mean, I've read about comedy clubs that still flat-out refuse to even book women now. In 2015.
It could also just be their schtick. Louis CK also does this kind of self-deprecating humor and it's definitely a style in comedy. I think the difference is that I don't think this kind of humor would have been necessary for Louis CK to become successful and I think for women it may be.
I'm not entirely sure about any of this, to be honest. I'm still thinking it through.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:41 PM on November 19, 2015
I don't think they would either, but at this point they're both pretty well established and I don't think this would be the case for any woman just starting out in comedy. I mean, I've read about comedy clubs that still flat-out refuse to even book women now. In 2015.
It could also just be their schtick. Louis CK also does this kind of self-deprecating humor and it's definitely a style in comedy. I think the difference is that I don't think this kind of humor would have been necessary for Louis CK to become successful and I think for women it may be.
I'm not entirely sure about any of this, to be honest. I'm still thinking it through.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:41 PM on November 19, 2015
My guess is a lot of guys don't want a woman to be funnier than they are (or think they are).
This. This a hundred times over.
Oddly, my friends who love my sense of humor the most are variety comedians, actors, and writers known for their scathing wit. None of them feel emasculated when I'm funny; a couple have confessed to going weak in the knees when I'm on form. I use my sense of humor as an acid test for men I date: while you don't have to think I'm Dorothy Parker reincarnate, every joke I make shouldn't shrink your penis by an inch, either.
posted by culfinglin at 3:47 PM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
This. This a hundred times over.
Oddly, my friends who love my sense of humor the most are variety comedians, actors, and writers known for their scathing wit. None of them feel emasculated when I'm funny; a couple have confessed to going weak in the knees when I'm on form. I use my sense of humor as an acid test for men I date: while you don't have to think I'm Dorothy Parker reincarnate, every joke I make shouldn't shrink your penis by an inch, either.
posted by culfinglin at 3:47 PM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Essentially don't be wittier or funnier than him because it will make him feel like less of a man and his ego will deflate and he'll blame you.
There's an awful lot of relationship and dating advice for women that essentially amounts to "Ladies, act like this and focus on massaging his ego, make him feel competent and like a strong masculine man, and make him feel good about himself and don't ever do anything but make him look wonderful" and it's so tiring.
(Btw, speaking of having to pretend certain men are funny and fake laughing at their bizarre attempts at being funny: Will Ferrell needs to stop. He's not funny anymore and why do all these people in the business coddle him and let him improvise his lines? It's gone too far.)
posted by discopolo at 4:25 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's an awful lot of relationship and dating advice for women that essentially amounts to "Ladies, act like this and focus on massaging his ego, make him feel competent and like a strong masculine man, and make him feel good about himself and don't ever do anything but make him look wonderful" and it's so tiring.
(Btw, speaking of having to pretend certain men are funny and fake laughing at their bizarre attempts at being funny: Will Ferrell needs to stop. He's not funny anymore and why do all these people in the business coddle him and let him improvise his lines? It's gone too far.)
posted by discopolo at 4:25 PM on November 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
What about the opposite: Do women not like serious, earnest, or solemn men?
I was just thinking about this, because one of the things I've really found myself getting drawn to in men is their sweetness and thoughtfulness. I'm thinking of Tom Hiddleston here - unlike a lot of people, I find Loki really kind of gross and off-putting, but the actor himself won me over by his thoughtfulness and how gender/appearance-nonspecific it was in particular (e.g. he wasn't just nice to the pretty women; he won me over when he brought hot soup in a thermos to a cold journalist who was covering one of the red carpet events). I would argue he's funny, but in that goofy-self-deprecating way rather than a flashy look at me manner. There doesn't seem to be anything cruel in him (though obviously it's there since he channels it through so many characters; Loki in particular is very cruel).
I think there is a way in which sweetness comes along with a sense of humor. One of my favorite comedies is Harvey, and what I love about it is how genuine, sweet, and honestly funny Jimmy Stewart's character is because he's so placid and his motivations are so different from the more frenetic foils around him.
But I think this is also affected by my sense of humor. I like either gentle, kind, silly, goofy humor or the black humor that tends to show up in social work/morgue settings which I would never repeat to someone outside of those contexts (my funniest joke ever just isn't funny outside of the context) - and the vast majority of my humor is contextual or referential (though I got excellent mileage recently with my "why is six afraid of seven" joke). I am a fan of dad jokes, and elaborate puns, and while I tend toward snarky the jokes which make me laugh the most and the most reliably are all explicitly goofy (even now, just THINKING about how many elephants you can fit in a beetle (car) makes me start to laugh).
Re The Perfect Couple Lizzy and Darcy:
But that is the entire plot of Lizzy/Darcy?? He falls for her wit.
Yes, and he is also witty. It's one of the very quiet parallels Austen sets up at the beginning of the book - that Darcy has a satirical eye and Lizzy is witty, and both roughly view the world in the same way but Lizzy is more charming and social with it. One of the things I love-love-loved about the Lizzie Bennet Diaries is the update to modern time let them do much better by Lydia; the text of Pride & Prejudice outright dismisses her, but the Lizzie Bennet Diaries really calls both Lizzy and Darcy to account for how they denigrated and dismissed Lydia via their self-absorption that was fed by both of their intelligence and wit. In the book, Lizzy undergoes that calling out via Charlotte, though again it's subtle, and that sets her up to rethink her prejudice against Darcy because if she was wrong about her dearest friend who she fancied she knew best, then she really needed to rethink her assumptions about her own powers of insight.
Most remakes/updates miss that both Lizzy and Darcy HAVE to change and become more humble, less dismissive people in order to form a relationship, and that both of them actually do those changes for their own purposes while fully expecting to never have a chance with the other person. The sexy part abut Darcy (to me) is that he cares about Lizzy's opinion enough that even though he knows he no longer had a chance with her he still changes because she was right. That is a profound statement of love and respect for another person.
Not funny, though...
posted by Deoridhe at 5:09 PM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I was just thinking about this, because one of the things I've really found myself getting drawn to in men is their sweetness and thoughtfulness. I'm thinking of Tom Hiddleston here - unlike a lot of people, I find Loki really kind of gross and off-putting, but the actor himself won me over by his thoughtfulness and how gender/appearance-nonspecific it was in particular (e.g. he wasn't just nice to the pretty women; he won me over when he brought hot soup in a thermos to a cold journalist who was covering one of the red carpet events). I would argue he's funny, but in that goofy-self-deprecating way rather than a flashy look at me manner. There doesn't seem to be anything cruel in him (though obviously it's there since he channels it through so many characters; Loki in particular is very cruel).
I think there is a way in which sweetness comes along with a sense of humor. One of my favorite comedies is Harvey, and what I love about it is how genuine, sweet, and honestly funny Jimmy Stewart's character is because he's so placid and his motivations are so different from the more frenetic foils around him.
But I think this is also affected by my sense of humor. I like either gentle, kind, silly, goofy humor or the black humor that tends to show up in social work/morgue settings which I would never repeat to someone outside of those contexts (my funniest joke ever just isn't funny outside of the context) - and the vast majority of my humor is contextual or referential (though I got excellent mileage recently with my "why is six afraid of seven" joke). I am a fan of dad jokes, and elaborate puns, and while I tend toward snarky the jokes which make me laugh the most and the most reliably are all explicitly goofy (even now, just THINKING about how many elephants you can fit in a beetle (car) makes me start to laugh).
Re The Perfect Couple Lizzy and Darcy:
But that is the entire plot of Lizzy/Darcy?? He falls for her wit.
Yes, and he is also witty. It's one of the very quiet parallels Austen sets up at the beginning of the book - that Darcy has a satirical eye and Lizzy is witty, and both roughly view the world in the same way but Lizzy is more charming and social with it. One of the things I love-love-loved about the Lizzie Bennet Diaries is the update to modern time let them do much better by Lydia; the text of Pride & Prejudice outright dismisses her, but the Lizzie Bennet Diaries really calls both Lizzy and Darcy to account for how they denigrated and dismissed Lydia via their self-absorption that was fed by both of their intelligence and wit. In the book, Lizzy undergoes that calling out via Charlotte, though again it's subtle, and that sets her up to rethink her prejudice against Darcy because if she was wrong about her dearest friend who she fancied she knew best, then she really needed to rethink her assumptions about her own powers of insight.
Most remakes/updates miss that both Lizzy and Darcy HAVE to change and become more humble, less dismissive people in order to form a relationship, and that both of them actually do those changes for their own purposes while fully expecting to never have a chance with the other person. The sexy part abut Darcy (to me) is that he cares about Lizzy's opinion enough that even though he knows he no longer had a chance with her he still changes because she was right. That is a profound statement of love and respect for another person.
Not funny, though...
posted by Deoridhe at 5:09 PM on November 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
(Btw, speaking of having to pretend certain men are funny and fake laughing at their bizarre attempts at being funny: Will Ferrell needs to stop. He's not funny anymore and why do all these people in the business coddle him and let him improvise his lines? It's gone too far.)
O.o
posted by Xavier Xavier at 6:25 PM on November 19, 2015
O.o
posted by Xavier Xavier at 6:25 PM on November 19, 2015
the worst relationships I've had were with men who liked that I was funny at first but when it started to seem like I would always be the funnier one of the two of us...well, then they didn't like that so much.
My ex and I were/are both people with a perhaps pathologically strong need to be appreciated for being amusing, but over time this did cause some pretty bad socialising issues as we sort of degenerated from a Harry and Sally to a much less palatable George and Martha. If I'm in a similar relationship in the future I will have to work out some sort of Geneva convention of funny-couple behaviour.
That said, there's a looooooot of joy to be had being in a relationship where you have complementary but differing senses of humour. Guys who just want their jokes laughed at are missing out.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:42 PM on November 19, 2015
My ex and I were/are both people with a perhaps pathologically strong need to be appreciated for being amusing, but over time this did cause some pretty bad socialising issues as we sort of degenerated from a Harry and Sally to a much less palatable George and Martha. If I'm in a similar relationship in the future I will have to work out some sort of Geneva convention of funny-couple behaviour.
That said, there's a looooooot of joy to be had being in a relationship where you have complementary but differing senses of humour. Guys who just want their jokes laughed at are missing out.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:42 PM on November 19, 2015
"So maybe in the realm of being paid to be a comedian, there's some parity on stage in that audiences don't necessarily want a slick packaged comedian, they want someone rather broken and easy to relate to or compare against,"
I've been reading a book on public storytelling by a Moth Grand Slam champion (Margot Leitman) and she says you have to keep yourself human, people have to relate to you, and you have to be an underdog. If you're telling a story about your college days, she advises that you leave out the fact that you went to Harvard, for example. It's probably a case of people don't root for the beautiful girl, they just want to bang her.
"I think she's brilliant and funny, but jesus christ give yourself a break about your looks."
People are going to call her an ugly fat cow no matter what she does, so she might as well get the first joke in about it.
"Heh. I travel a lot and my favorite, time tested way of getting guys on airplanes to not hit on me is to mention I'm a theoretical physicist. (I'm not.) It's so sad and horrible that it works so well. "
I need to keep this one in mind for future reference.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've been reading a book on public storytelling by a Moth Grand Slam champion (Margot Leitman) and she says you have to keep yourself human, people have to relate to you, and you have to be an underdog. If you're telling a story about your college days, she advises that you leave out the fact that you went to Harvard, for example. It's probably a case of people don't root for the beautiful girl, they just want to bang her.
"I think she's brilliant and funny, but jesus christ give yourself a break about your looks."
People are going to call her an ugly fat cow no matter what she does, so she might as well get the first joke in about it.
"Heh. I travel a lot and my favorite, time tested way of getting guys on airplanes to not hit on me is to mention I'm a theoretical physicist. (I'm not.) It's so sad and horrible that it works so well. "
I need to keep this one in mind for future reference.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 PM on November 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
BUT HOW MANY ELEPHANTS FIT INSIDE A VW BEETLE SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:26 PM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:26 PM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Six. Two in the front, two in the back, one in the trunk, and one in the glove compartment.
*falls over laughing way too hard*
posted by Deoridhe at 1:19 AM on November 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
*falls over laughing way too hard*
posted by Deoridhe at 1:19 AM on November 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
WHY IS IT SO FUNNY?????
posted by Deoridhe at 1:20 AM on November 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Deoridhe at 1:20 AM on November 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm genuinely curious - if they dropped those portions of jokes from their act today, what do you think will happen? The vicious attacks will always be there, but I'm not convinced their popularity as comediennes would suddenly drop and they'd be shunned for failing to make jokes about their own looks.
At least with Schumer, I get the sense it's more like, "Hey, I have to deal with this shit every day? Then you're sure as hell gonna have to hear about it too. You think I'm just gonna keep those shitty voices running through my head quietly to myself?"
posted by straight at 1:20 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
At least with Schumer, I get the sense it's more like, "Hey, I have to deal with this shit every day? Then you're sure as hell gonna have to hear about it too. You think I'm just gonna keep those shitty voices running through my head quietly to myself?"
posted by straight at 1:20 AM on November 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
the conventionally "unattractive" funny woman in a sitcom
aka The Brunette
posted by Room 641-A at 1:18 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
aka The Brunette
posted by Room 641-A at 1:18 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hey, that's me! I live next door and am unmarried, isn't it a hoot?
posted by maryr at 11:35 AM on November 23, 2015
posted by maryr at 11:35 AM on November 23, 2015
Can I mention that one of things that is great about Amy Schumer is that she makes jokes about birth control and periods and gross female-oriented secretions and sex noises. And while not all of that is 100% always appropriate, you know who never seems to think a period joke based on actual female physiology is funny? I'll give you a hint: about half the room.
But we're alllllllll supposed to think Cameron Diaz's stiff bangs are fucking hilarious.
posted by maryr at 11:45 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
But we're alllllllll supposed to think Cameron Diaz's stiff bangs are fucking hilarious.
posted by maryr at 11:45 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
PS: You know what girls talk about at those sexy, sexy sleepovers with pillow fights and the lingerie? Periods. When you're in middle school, have you had one yet? After that, what a pain in the ass they are. Eventually you grow up and your friends get married and have children and then you get to learn about colostrum and pads for leaky breast milk and all the things that come out of babies. I can't wait 'til we start talking menopause.
Sorry, I only saw this thread today, I'm done ranting now.
posted by maryr at 11:49 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sorry, I only saw this thread today, I'm done ranting now.
posted by maryr at 11:49 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
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posted by hank at 7:14 AM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]