Good job, internet.
November 22, 2015 3:11 PM Subscribe
In preparation for police raids tonight in Brussels, Belgian authorities asked journalists not to tweet using #brusselslockdown. The response has been a hundred thousand photos of cats.
OH HAI
CAN HAZ COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE PLZ
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
CAN HAZ COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE PLZ
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If I had a twitter account, I would tweet nudibranchs all day long at this hashtag. Mostly because I get KO'd by too many cat photos while searching for them /tears/
posted by yueliang at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
After activist Dyab Abou Jahjah "broke" the silence by giving a vague description of his surroundings and defended that tweet by calling it "freedom of speech", the press account of the Belgian police tweeted "Freedom of speech vs safety of people. What's most important?". Quite surprising, and a bit scary, to hear that question being posed directly by the police, in such a way.
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 3:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
Thanks for sharing Deece BJ Pancake, that is really startling. I wonder how this would go down in the US if we were asked to do something like this.
posted by yueliang at 3:24 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 3:24 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Belgian surrealism at its best. But why cats only?"
You really need to calibrate your surrealism meter if you think that posting cat pics is "surreal"
posted by thelonius at 3:25 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
You really need to calibrate your surrealism meter if you think that posting cat pics is "surreal"
posted by thelonius at 3:25 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Deece BJ Pancake, both your links go to the first tweet.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:26 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:26 PM on November 22, 2015
corrected, thanks
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 3:26 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 3:26 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If Brussels was so concerned about dangerous attacks why did they provide me with sprouts?
posted by biffa at 3:28 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:28 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Personally I might have gone with a canary.
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:33 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:33 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Quite surprising, and a bit scary, to hear that question being posed directly by the police, in such a way.
During the previous Paris attacks, media was broadcasting that the gunmen hadn't found all the people in the building while the hostage situation was still ongoing. As far as I'm concerned, Dyab Abou Jahjah, whoever he is, and all other twitter clowns can go fuck themselves.
posted by effbot at 3:36 PM on November 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
During the previous Paris attacks, media was broadcasting that the gunmen hadn't found all the people in the building while the hostage situation was still ongoing. As far as I'm concerned, Dyab Abou Jahjah, whoever he is, and all other twitter clowns can go fuck themselves.
posted by effbot at 3:36 PM on November 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
Deece BJ Pancake: " Quite surprising, and a bit scary, to hear that question being posed directly by the police, in such a way."
Scarier still, the answer.
posted by chavenet at 3:36 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Scarier still, the answer.
posted by chavenet at 3:36 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
As far as I'm concerned, Dyab Abou Jahjah,
The multiple spellings of his name, and the need to get by on as much French and Dutch as you can muster, all make googling this guy slightly more difficult than usual.
But if you take the trouble, you'll find that he is one phenomenal asshole.
posted by ocschwar at 3:38 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The multiple spellings of his name, and the need to get by on as much French and Dutch as you can muster, all make googling this guy slightly more difficult than usual.
But if you take the trouble, you'll find that he is one phenomenal asshole.
posted by ocschwar at 3:38 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
But if you take the trouble, you'll find that he is one phenomenal asshole.
If you want freedom of speech, you have to accept that sometimes it means defending phenomenal assholes.
(I'm still a fan of calling them phenomenal assholes at every opportunity, though.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:48 PM on November 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
If you want freedom of speech, you have to accept that sometimes it means defending phenomenal assholes.
(I'm still a fan of calling them phenomenal assholes at every opportunity, though.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:48 PM on November 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
If you want freedom of speech, you have to accept that sometimes it means defending phenomenal assholes.
Yes. I've Googled Dyab Abou Jahjah, though, and if this is him then I don't see why ocschwar called him an asshole. Controversies about him include being accused of starting a riot (he was acquitted, and even a police officer said he was innocent); being insulted as "the prophet's pimp" by a debate moderator; provoking the racist political party Vlaams Belang; and so on. He's a "social democrat and moderate Muslim," so he'd probably fit right in here. Is tweeting "the police can ask what they want. #FreedomOfSpeech" really enough to be branded an asshole now?
posted by Rangi at 4:01 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Yes. I've Googled Dyab Abou Jahjah, though, and if this is him then I don't see why ocschwar called him an asshole. Controversies about him include being accused of starting a riot (he was acquitted, and even a police officer said he was innocent); being insulted as "the prophet's pimp" by a debate moderator; provoking the racist political party Vlaams Belang; and so on. He's a "social democrat and moderate Muslim," so he'd probably fit right in here. Is tweeting "the police can ask what they want. #FreedomOfSpeech" really enough to be branded an asshole now?
posted by Rangi at 4:01 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Well, here is Abou Jahjah's latest blogpost, and I am not seeing anything particularly assholish myself, unless you take the view that European Muslims who are concerned both about the threat of obviously undeniable assholes like Daesh and about the current threat to them personally of properly racist assholes who will take the opportunity to make their lives a misery for no fucking reason are, somehow - perhaps simply because of who they are as Muslims - intrinsically assholes.
Perhaps it is you that is the asshole. Perhaps it is me. But I do not think that Abou Jahjah is an asshole. And if there is a case that he is it has not yet been made in this thread.
In any case he did not tweet his location.
posted by motty at 4:03 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Perhaps it is you that is the asshole. Perhaps it is me. But I do not think that Abou Jahjah is an asshole. And if there is a case that he is it has not yet been made in this thread.
In any case he did not tweet his location.
posted by motty at 4:03 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Salah Abdeslam, subject of manhunt, not among 16 arrested in Belgian raids connected to Paris attacks.
I guess the press embargo is over.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:04 PM on November 22, 2015
I guess the press embargo is over.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:04 PM on November 22, 2015
I'm also having trouble identifying what it is about Abou Jahjah that prompted ocshwar's characterization, and I'm glad there was some pushback against the idea that, given a vague threat of terrorist attacks, people need to be silent and let the police do whatever they think is best.
posted by layceepee at 4:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by layceepee at 4:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
A man who posts this as part of this strategy for political advocacy gets the asshole label for life.
This is the relevant wikipedia entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_European_League
His tweet complied with the letter of the embargo, but was clearly posted in order to mock the embargo and the need for it. He is an asshole.
posted by ocschwar at 4:09 PM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is the relevant wikipedia entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_European_League
His tweet complied with the letter of the embargo, but was clearly posted in order to mock the embargo and the need for it. He is an asshole.
posted by ocschwar at 4:09 PM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
They have still not found him. Jesus H Christ. He is clearly being hidden by people sympathetic to the terrorists. How fucked up is that.
posted by marienbad at 4:10 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by marienbad at 4:10 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Abou Jahjah was the person responsible for the #JeSuisAhmed hashtag.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:12 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:12 PM on November 22, 2015
That link is to a post on Pamela Geller's site, ocschwar.
You still haven't made a case.
posted by motty at 4:17 PM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
You still haven't made a case.
posted by motty at 4:17 PM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
A man who posts this as part of this strategy for political advocacy gets the asshole label for life.
A little warning would have been nice. I feel terrible even having that page in my browsing history.
posted by no mind at 4:21 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
A little warning would have been nice. I feel terrible even having that page in my browsing history.
posted by no mind at 4:21 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know enough about Abou Jahjah to have any opinions about him, however I do know enough about Pamela Geller to be pretty certain she is deserving of the 'asshole for life' tag.
From the wikipedia article on her: "She is known for her opposition to the proposed construction of an Islamic community center near the former site of the World Trade Center, and sponsorship of the "Draw the Prophet" cartoon contest in Garland, Texas".
Honestly if she said the sun was bright, I'd look outside to make sure. If we were about to revoke freedom of speech, she'd be top of my list of people to lock up for the awful things she has said/provoked (but I'm not about to revoke such freedoms, she merely tests my resolve on the matter).
posted by el io at 4:31 PM on November 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
From the wikipedia article on her: "She is known for her opposition to the proposed construction of an Islamic community center near the former site of the World Trade Center, and sponsorship of the "Draw the Prophet" cartoon contest in Garland, Texas".
Honestly if she said the sun was bright, I'd look outside to make sure. If we were about to revoke freedom of speech, she'd be top of my list of people to lock up for the awful things she has said/provoked (but I'm not about to revoke such freedoms, she merely tests my resolve on the matter).
posted by el io at 4:31 PM on November 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
That image is hosted by Pam Geller, who for those not in the know is one of America's worst fire-breathing anti-Muslim culture warriors and linked to a half dozen hard-right/quasi-fascist racist groups in Europe, including Vlaams Belang - who Rangi just said was one of Abou Jahjah's targets.
Point is: are you certain this isn't a case of him calling them out? Because if he's against Vlaams Belang, he's pretty much guaranteed to be against Pam Geller.
posted by Ryvar at 4:35 PM on November 22, 2015
Point is: are you certain this isn't a case of him calling them out? Because if he's against Vlaams Belang, he's pretty much guaranteed to be against Pam Geller.
posted by Ryvar at 4:35 PM on November 22, 2015
Yeah, flagged as offensive. Wish I'd never clicked that link or seen that shit cartoon.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:41 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by Existential Dread at 4:41 PM on November 22, 2015
Mod note: Nixed the cartoon link from ocschwar's comment. If for some reason you really need to link to rather than just talk about a fucked up cartoon, please do so with much clearer labeling.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Quite surprising, and a bit scary, to hear that question being posed directly by the police, in such a way.
This isn't "don't talk about it" it's "wait until the operation is over to broadcast details of it". It's disingenuous to make like this is an issue of Freeze Peaches.
posted by Dysk at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
This isn't "don't talk about it" it's "wait until the operation is over to broadcast details of it". It's disingenuous to make like this is an issue of Freeze Peaches.
posted by Dysk at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Oh, for heaven's sake. I did not post to any verbiage from Geller. I posted a link straight to the image because it was the one copy still being served on a google image search.
Yes, the cartoon is disgusting. Take it up with About Djah Djah for posting it. It accurately reflects who he is. He'd rather the incident be forgotten. Weller won't let it.
posted by ocschwar at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, the cartoon is disgusting. Take it up with About Djah Djah for posting it. It accurately reflects who he is. He'd rather the incident be forgotten. Weller won't let it.
posted by ocschwar at 4:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Still, in this case the enemy of your enemy is still a hate-mongering asshole with transparently fascist, bigoted motives. Maybe find a more reasonable source to back up your assertions.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:52 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread at 4:52 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I came for the lolcats. Leaving feeling a little ill.
posted by adept256 at 4:56 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 4:56 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
People who are irresponsible with their freedoms tend to lose them whether they like it or not. As with any freedom, part of having freedom of speech is knowing how to use it responsibly. And I believe people do still have freedom of speech if they choose not to speak (so that the government doesn't even need to consider intervening by filtering networks, etc). I'd call this 21st century freedom of speech: accepting the responsibility that comes along with our new powers of instant communication.
The speed at which news travels on Twitter is normally a great thing, but not everything needs to be said now when doing so would arguably do more harm than good. The photos and the rehashing (see what I did there?) can wait for another day and still be newsworthy.
There are lots of things in journalism that are embargoed to ensure that they are reported on responsibly (press releases, articles about scientific discoveries, etc). Normally the participants in the embargo have agreed to participate under some sort of contract or professional obligation; asking the public to participate is maybe something new, but so is having dozens of citizen reporters on every corner! It probably won't be the last time this happens. I think it's akin to asking citizens of a country to pay taxes for services they won't necessarily use.
The debates can (and should) be had, the restraints should be loosened as soon as it is safe to do so, the police actions should be scrutinized, and the slippery slope should always be kept in mind. But at the end of the day, there are certain costs to running a city or a country. What freedom has ever been maintained without paying some sort of cost?
Just my thoughts on the matter; I'll be interested to read some perspectives from people living there.
posted by mantecol at 4:57 PM on November 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
The speed at which news travels on Twitter is normally a great thing, but not everything needs to be said now when doing so would arguably do more harm than good. The photos and the rehashing (see what I did there?) can wait for another day and still be newsworthy.
There are lots of things in journalism that are embargoed to ensure that they are reported on responsibly (press releases, articles about scientific discoveries, etc). Normally the participants in the embargo have agreed to participate under some sort of contract or professional obligation; asking the public to participate is maybe something new, but so is having dozens of citizen reporters on every corner! It probably won't be the last time this happens. I think it's akin to asking citizens of a country to pay taxes for services they won't necessarily use.
The debates can (and should) be had, the restraints should be loosened as soon as it is safe to do so, the police actions should be scrutinized, and the slippery slope should always be kept in mind. But at the end of the day, there are certain costs to running a city or a country. What freedom has ever been maintained without paying some sort of cost?
Just my thoughts on the matter; I'll be interested to read some perspectives from people living there.
posted by mantecol at 4:57 PM on November 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
Wow, okay upon further reading he's basically the nega-Geller. They're both unbelievable racist assholes on opposite sides of the culture war.
For those who, like me, wanted better sourcing the link to the Brussels Journal article is in the footnotes of the AEL Wikipedia page. WARNING THE CARTOON IN THE LINKED ARTICLE IS INCREDIBLY FUCKING OFFENSIVE: check the link in footnote 21.
posted by Ryvar at 4:58 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
For those who, like me, wanted better sourcing the link to the Brussels Journal article is in the footnotes of the AEL Wikipedia page. WARNING THE CARTOON IN THE LINKED ARTICLE IS INCREDIBLY FUCKING OFFENSIVE: check the link in footnote 21.
posted by Ryvar at 4:58 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's worth talking about that (now deleted) cartoon a little.
Sure, it's deeply horrible, and pretty crude. A post-coital Hitler in bed with a girl saying 'put that one in your diary, Anne'. The surface meaning of it is clearly vile by any interpretation and clearly intended to be vile.
Why would anyone draw such a vile thing? What does it mean? Is there a deeper meaning to it?
Is there any possible context in which such a cartoon might be understood?
Could it be that such a cartoon - drawn as it was (if we can take Geller as an accurate source) as part of the AEL's response to certain well-known previous cartoons - might be intended not so much for its own content as such but rather as a deliberate attempt to describe how offensive it is possible for a cartoon to be, aimed at an audience who are perhaps looking at other cartoons that certain other people find wildly offensive in *exactly* the same degree but which they themselves do not? And who go around saying 'oh, it's just a cartoon get over it'.
Well. In such a context one might reasonably suggest that the only possible correct response to such a cartoon is this: it's just a cartoon. Get over it.
Otherwise you fall into the trap of double standards. Because as such the cartoon is not about Hitler, and it is not about Anne Frank. It is about something else entirely. It's about you. It's about your response to an offensive cartoon. And if you don't understand that then you have not understood the cartoon at all.
It's in some ways a pretty clever cartoon, given that context - and only given that context. Still vile, still crude. Still horrible. Certainly not funny. But it was never intended to be funny.
C'est Charlie, for sure.
posted by motty at 4:58 PM on November 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
Sure, it's deeply horrible, and pretty crude. A post-coital Hitler in bed with a girl saying 'put that one in your diary, Anne'. The surface meaning of it is clearly vile by any interpretation and clearly intended to be vile.
Why would anyone draw such a vile thing? What does it mean? Is there a deeper meaning to it?
Is there any possible context in which such a cartoon might be understood?
Could it be that such a cartoon - drawn as it was (if we can take Geller as an accurate source) as part of the AEL's response to certain well-known previous cartoons - might be intended not so much for its own content as such but rather as a deliberate attempt to describe how offensive it is possible for a cartoon to be, aimed at an audience who are perhaps looking at other cartoons that certain other people find wildly offensive in *exactly* the same degree but which they themselves do not? And who go around saying 'oh, it's just a cartoon get over it'.
Well. In such a context one might reasonably suggest that the only possible correct response to such a cartoon is this: it's just a cartoon. Get over it.
Otherwise you fall into the trap of double standards. Because as such the cartoon is not about Hitler, and it is not about Anne Frank. It is about something else entirely. It's about you. It's about your response to an offensive cartoon. And if you don't understand that then you have not understood the cartoon at all.
It's in some ways a pretty clever cartoon, given that context - and only given that context. Still vile, still crude. Still horrible. Certainly not funny. But it was never intended to be funny.
C'est Charlie, for sure.
posted by motty at 4:58 PM on November 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
C'est Charlie, for sure.
And, like Charlie Hebdo, reprehensible.
posted by Dysk at 5:00 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
And, like Charlie Hebdo, reprehensible.
posted by Dysk at 5:00 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are lots of things in journalism that are embargoed to ensure that they are reported on responsibly (press releases, articles about scientific discoveries, etc).
This is simply a professional deal. If you break an embargo intentionally, what happens is that source *never gives you embargoed information again.* It's a simple deal -- follow the terms, and we'll keep you on the press list. Break the terms, and you're no longer getting information from us early, good luck scrambling to keep up on release day.
And Freedom of Speech does means Freedom to be an asshole. It does not mean Freedom from consequences of being an asshole. If your speech makes you a pariah in society, we're not taking away your Freedom of Speech, we are giving you the consequences of your speech. You can still say whatever you want.
And society can say "fuck you back."
posted by eriko at 5:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is simply a professional deal. If you break an embargo intentionally, what happens is that source *never gives you embargoed information again.* It's a simple deal -- follow the terms, and we'll keep you on the press list. Break the terms, and you're no longer getting information from us early, good luck scrambling to keep up on release day.
And Freedom of Speech does means Freedom to be an asshole. It does not mean Freedom from consequences of being an asshole. If your speech makes you a pariah in society, we're not taking away your Freedom of Speech, we are giving you the consequences of your speech. You can still say whatever you want.
And society can say "fuck you back."
posted by eriko at 5:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Still, in this case the enemy of your enemy is still a hate-mongering asshole with transparently fascist, bigoted motives. Maybe find a more reasonable source to back up your assertions.
I posted a link to the image itself. She didn't even get ad revenue from those of you who clicked on it. As you can see from Wikipedia and the discussion above, there's more than adequate proof that it was Djah Djah himself who first posted it in public. I saw it myself on other Jewish venues before Geller posted about it, back then.
Now as to why did I posto that? Well, compare my life in Boston and what's happening in Brussels.
Where I live, when the police deploy en masse for anything, they announce it because they want the public to know so that those who can stay away, stay away. Even the tsarnaev standoff started very early with the police telling us to stay the hell away from Watertown.
The Brussels cops, however, want their movements not to be reported by Twitterers. Because if the fugitives learn the police are closing in, they may decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Dh Djah decided to mock the Brussels cops' concern. I posted the link to point out that both actions are consistent with his low character.
This is also relevant because he is, unfortunately, the most prominent among self-appointed representatives of the Arab-Belgian community, and his low character and high standing explains a good deal about current events.
posted by ocschwar at 5:16 PM on November 22, 2015
Is this protest supposed to be against the speech restriction or for it? On the one hand it goes directly against what the police asked, on the other hand it accomplishes the police's goal by flooding the channel with noise. I'm honestly not sure what statement people are making.
posted by echo target at 5:19 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by echo target at 5:19 PM on November 22, 2015
On a lighter note, the Belgian police thanked everyone for their participation in #BrusselsLockdown.
Most retweeted
Greatest hits from:
Buzzfeed
The Mirror, UK
USA Today
Bustle
Heavy.com
posted by nickrussell at 5:27 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most retweeted
Greatest hits from:
Buzzfeed
The Mirror, UK
USA Today
Bustle
Heavy.com
posted by nickrussell at 5:27 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just FYI, ocschwar: you lessen your own argument every time you "misspell" his name. If you want to be taken seriously, take your opposition seriously.
posted by Inkoate at 5:29 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Inkoate at 5:29 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Can you explain what you mean by 'low character', ocschwar?
posted by motty at 5:31 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by motty at 5:31 PM on November 22, 2015
He just posted the fact that there were cops on his street, when the police specifically asked the public not to do things like that. That in itself should be proof enough of his low character, motty
posted by ocschwar at 5:41 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by ocschwar at 5:41 PM on November 22, 2015
Civil disobedience in the face of fear-prompted fascism is the furthest thing from low character, ocschwar.
posted by Inkoate at 5:45 PM on November 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by Inkoate at 5:45 PM on November 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
I'm trying to recall the situation in Boston during the active search for the Tsarnaev brothers. Pretty sure some degree of blackout was maintained and I equated this police request with that one. Am I missing something?
posted by janey47 at 5:45 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by janey47 at 5:45 PM on November 22, 2015
Civil disobedience in the face of fear-prompted fascism is the furthest thing from low character, ocschwar.
Ah, yes. Potentially tipping off fugitives about police positions. Fugitives whose organization has expressly told them to go out in a blaze if the police close in on them.
Civiil disobedience if ever I saw it.
posted by ocschwar at 5:47 PM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ah, yes. Potentially tipping off fugitives about police positions. Fugitives whose organization has expressly told them to go out in a blaze if the police close in on them.
Civiil disobedience if ever I saw it.
posted by ocschwar at 5:47 PM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Nobody said you had to agree with him. I'm just asking if you could be less of a dick about it.
posted by Inkoate at 5:50 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Inkoate at 5:50 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nobody said you had to agree with him.
Nobody said I had to agree with a guy who cavalierly endangered lives. I am so glad for that.
posted by ocschwar at 5:52 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Deece BJ Pancake: ""Freedom of speech vs safety of people. What's most important?". Quite surprising, and a bit scary, to hear that question being posed directly by the police, in such a way."chavenet: "Scarier still, the answer."
This may or may not be what you meant, but I can confirm that "it's complicated" and/or "it depends" are the scariest answers mankind faces to any question.
posted by Riki tiki at 5:53 PM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
The Brussels cops, however, want their movements not to be reported by Twitterers.
If the police want to be stealthy, they should be stealthy. Look, it's possible to have a couple of dozen people surround a spot without the entire city noticing. If you have a convoy of vehicles come from all directions to jump onto a single spot, you probably don't have the element of surprise.
Instead of telling the entire city to keep quiet, maybe the police should learn some operational security.
Also, it might not be necessary to have an army of people take down a suspect or three.
I think part of the reason I have some strong feelings about the freedom of speech in regards to police movements is that recently when there are large amounts of police moving 'tactically' in US cities is that they are there to squash the speech of protesters and activists. Having it start to be a new form of a compliant society to keep the actions of the police a secret isn't something I want to start doing.
Army and police blocking the way. Pointing guns at citizens in cars. Helecopters hovering. Extremely edgy. (original tweet in question).
Yeah, I think it'd be pretty obvious that the police are closing in on them, and easy to spot from a more than a block away.
posted by el io at 6:00 PM on November 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
If the police want to be stealthy, they should be stealthy. Look, it's possible to have a couple of dozen people surround a spot without the entire city noticing. If you have a convoy of vehicles come from all directions to jump onto a single spot, you probably don't have the element of surprise.
Instead of telling the entire city to keep quiet, maybe the police should learn some operational security.
Also, it might not be necessary to have an army of people take down a suspect or three.
I think part of the reason I have some strong feelings about the freedom of speech in regards to police movements is that recently when there are large amounts of police moving 'tactically' in US cities is that they are there to squash the speech of protesters and activists. Having it start to be a new form of a compliant society to keep the actions of the police a secret isn't something I want to start doing.
Army and police blocking the way. Pointing guns at citizens in cars. Helecopters hovering. Extremely edgy. (original tweet in question).
Yeah, I think it'd be pretty obvious that the police are closing in on them, and easy to spot from a more than a block away.
posted by el io at 6:00 PM on November 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Metafilter: Nobody said you had to agree with him. I'm just asking if you could be less of a dick about it.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:02 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:02 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
No, seriously, ocschwar, your playful riffs on his name are racist. I don't care how loathsome he is. Cut it out.
posted by allthinky at 6:10 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by allthinky at 6:10 PM on November 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
If the police want to be stealthy, they should be stealthy.
Be careful what you wish for. (Via MeFi)
posted by Rangi at 6:16 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Be careful what you wish for. (Via MeFi)
posted by Rangi at 6:16 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
But why cats only
I Know Where Your Cat Lives: Feline photo mapping website exposes how easy it is to track the owner's location
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:26 PM on November 22, 2015
I Know Where Your Cat Lives: Feline photo mapping website exposes how easy it is to track the owner's location
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:26 PM on November 22, 2015
Good lord. I was just checking if this was the kind of Qaddafi/Khaddafi/Ghadaffi confusion when transcribing Arabic to the Roman alphabet. Ocschwar did mention multiple spellings in various languages, which would make sense in a way.
Djah Djah
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. You couldn't have meant this guy.
posted by adept256 at 6:39 PM on November 22, 2015
Djah Djah
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. You couldn't have meant this guy.
posted by adept256 at 6:39 PM on November 22, 2015
This entire situation in Brussels seems puzzling and crazy. It strikes me as a lot of security theater vs actual security. The authorities have suggested there is a planned set of attacks or an attack; but now they don't want the terrorists to know that they know or that they are putting police and soldiers on all the street corners to look for the terrorists. So people shouldn't use a hashtag because otherwise the terrorists might know? It just doesn't make sense to me.
posted by humanfont at 6:40 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by humanfont at 6:40 PM on November 22, 2015
His tweet complied with the letter of the embargo, but was clearly posted in order to mock the embargo and the need for it. He is an asshole.
If there were helicopters hovering, everyone knew the police were there, and a twitter embargo to hide the police location was, at that point, pretty dumb and deserved to be mocked. Regardless, he didn't actually give away anything, and your reaction to his tweet is beyond over the top. I never thought I'd see the day an unhinged racist like Pamela Heller would be cited approvingly on metafilter.
posted by Mavri at 6:40 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
If there were helicopters hovering, everyone knew the police were there, and a twitter embargo to hide the police location was, at that point, pretty dumb and deserved to be mocked. Regardless, he didn't actually give away anything, and your reaction to his tweet is beyond over the top. I never thought I'd see the day an unhinged racist like Pamela Heller would be cited approvingly on metafilter.
posted by Mavri at 6:40 PM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I never thought I'd see the day an unhinged racist like Pamela Heller would be cited approvingly on metafilter.
She wasn't, but if you're looking for a link to the type of image that gets pulled off the blue in seconds, she probably hosts it.
posted by adept256 at 6:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
She wasn't, but if you're looking for a link to the type of image that gets pulled off the blue in seconds, she probably hosts it.
posted by adept256 at 6:46 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Let's absolutely drop the whole cartoon thing already. ocschwar, you've more generally made your argument several times over now and this thread doesn't need to be you arguing with everybody about it further; please just give it a pass at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:56 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:56 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Of course Chaplin had to show his support for the kitties and people of Brussels. : )
posted by SisterHavana at 7:02 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by SisterHavana at 7:02 PM on November 22, 2015
If the police think the fugative has a smartphone and is checking specific hashtags, it seems like a little SEO wizardry would make it easy to catch the perp.
posted by humanfont at 7:21 PM on November 22, 2015
posted by humanfont at 7:21 PM on November 22, 2015
If the police think the fugative has a smartphone and is checking specific hashtags, it seems like a little SEO wizardry would make it easy to catch the perp.
Escape police manhunts with this one weird trick!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:16 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Escape police manhunts with this one weird trick!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:16 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I kind of like when authorities politely make a reasonable request of the public to help them accomplish a goal. That should be the norm.
I have a feeling that if this went down in the States, we'd just hit the Internet Kill Switch in the affected area.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:20 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have a feeling that if this went down in the States, we'd just hit the Internet Kill Switch in the affected area.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:20 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm trying to recall the situation in Boston during the active search for the Tsarnaev brothers. Pretty sure some degree of blackout was maintained and I equated this police request with that one. Am I missing something?
I remember that the suspect was only found when someone went outside for a smoke after the shelter in place order was lifted.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:26 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I remember that the suspect was only found when someone went outside for a smoke after the shelter in place order was lifted.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:26 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I never thought I'd see the day an unhinged racist like Pamela Heller would be cited approvingly on metafilter.
There's another thread from May of this year, where her actions are defended as free speech. It happens. So it goes.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:18 PM on November 22, 2015
There's another thread from May of this year, where her actions are defended as free speech. It happens. So it goes.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:18 PM on November 22, 2015
There's another thread from May of this year, where her actions are defended as free speech.
Her speech was defended (the right to speech, not the contents of her speech), and personally I would defend the speech of Dyab Abou Jahjah as well (even the contents of this particular tweet; I don't know enough about him to speak to his other expressions).
It's worth noting though, that the country in question is Belgium, not the US. There is no constitutional right to free speech. That being said, I don't think it could be said that the police have curtailed free speech rights (with their tweet), but it doesn't seem appropriate that the police be expressing a very political opinion - leave that to the leadership of the country, not the police force.
Regarding this assertion "media was broadcasting that the gunmen hadn't found all the people in the building while the hostage situation was still ongoing"; that link indicated that a fucking legislator revealed this information on air - if he knew that information, why did he broadcast it... I blame that lawmaker more than the radio station (which was broadcasting live). I mean if a congressman revealed currently occurring military operations on live TV, would you blame the TV station or the asshat congressman?
posted by el io at 10:17 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Her speech was defended (the right to speech, not the contents of her speech), and personally I would defend the speech of Dyab Abou Jahjah as well (even the contents of this particular tweet; I don't know enough about him to speak to his other expressions).
It's worth noting though, that the country in question is Belgium, not the US. There is no constitutional right to free speech. That being said, I don't think it could be said that the police have curtailed free speech rights (with their tweet), but it doesn't seem appropriate that the police be expressing a very political opinion - leave that to the leadership of the country, not the police force.
Regarding this assertion "media was broadcasting that the gunmen hadn't found all the people in the building while the hostage situation was still ongoing"; that link indicated that a fucking legislator revealed this information on air - if he knew that information, why did he broadcast it... I blame that lawmaker more than the radio station (which was broadcasting live). I mean if a congressman revealed currently occurring military operations on live TV, would you blame the TV station or the asshat congressman?
posted by el io at 10:17 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
This entire situation in Brussels seems puzzling and crazy. It strikes me as a lot of security theater vs actual security.
The problem is that if even one thing does happen -- one asshole murderer running around with an axe, let alone a mass attack like Paris -- then the media and opposition political parties will scream about what wasn't done to prevent it.
It's a horrible angle of attack. There's always something that could have been done, right? I mean, we could all be chained up in our homes where we'd be safe! If that saves even one life, isn't it worth it to chain us all up at home?
I'm hoping that authorities in Belgium aren't under that sort of pressure and that they're operating under genuine concerns and solid intelligence. But God knows people in the US aren't above manipulating this sort of atmosphere for political gain...or overreacting even when their motives are sincere.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:37 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
The problem is that if even one thing does happen -- one asshole murderer running around with an axe, let alone a mass attack like Paris -- then the media and opposition political parties will scream about what wasn't done to prevent it.
It's a horrible angle of attack. There's always something that could have been done, right? I mean, we could all be chained up in our homes where we'd be safe! If that saves even one life, isn't it worth it to chain us all up at home?
I'm hoping that authorities in Belgium aren't under that sort of pressure and that they're operating under genuine concerns and solid intelligence. But God knows people in the US aren't above manipulating this sort of atmosphere for political gain...or overreacting even when their motives are sincere.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:37 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
So if I'm understanding this correctly, Belgian police were looking to round up terrorists or terrorist organizers/supporters. They asked for cooperation. Guy doesn't cooperate. And MeFi supports his actions.
WTF.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:11 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
WTF.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:11 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean if a congressman revealed currently occurring military operations on live TV, would you blame the TV station or the asshat congressman?
Both. FFS, WTH? I can not believe this thread.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:13 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Both. FFS, WTH? I can not believe this thread.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:13 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Came for the cats. Left because of the obvious fucking insanity of people losing their goddamn minds because a guy with an Arabic name, who Did NOT tweet a location saying that tanks were rolling in the streets, and helicopters were flying over Brussels, when every damn media station was reporting the same thing.
Seriously you guys, making racist jokes about someone's name? Freaking the fuck out because he tweeted the same thing that bbc reporters tweeted? Demanding that we show obsequious deference to cops? Have we lost our collective minds?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:51 PM on November 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
Seriously you guys, making racist jokes about someone's name? Freaking the fuck out because he tweeted the same thing that bbc reporters tweeted? Demanding that we show obsequious deference to cops? Have we lost our collective minds?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:51 PM on November 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
So if I'm understanding this correctly, Belgian police were looking to round up terrorists or terrorist organizers/supporters. They asked for cooperation. Guy doesn't cooperate. And MeFi supports his actions.I support the police asking in this instance, but I also support people pushing back on the police asking. Because the police/the state/those with power always have a reason to extend their power. First they asked for cooperation; now it sounds like they (and you) demand it; next they may legislate it. If a society wants to remain free, it's important to question authority when it declares it is asserting extraordinary emergency powers, and to reject their assertions and demands when they are unfounded.
As far as I can tell, this guy didn't reveal location or otherwise aid any suspected terrorists, so your concern must be about his disobedience. This does not comfort me, regardless of who this guy is.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:17 AM on November 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Unless Abou Jahjah's home address is public knowledge and easily accessible to terrorists on the run, his tweet couldn't have communicated that much. He could be the biggest jerk on Earth, but I can't see how he was helping terrorists with that tweet.
Now can we PLEASE talk about the cat eating frites?
posted by teponaztli at 1:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Now can we PLEASE talk about the cat eating frites?
posted by teponaztli at 1:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
If a society wants to remain free, it's important to question authority when it declares it is asserting extraordinary emergency powers, and to reject their assertions and demands when they are unfounded.
And in this instance, it's hard to see how it could be unfounded. Hence the engaging critically with the request and deciding that it is legit and worth complying with.
As far as I can tell, this guy didn't reveal location or otherwise aid any suspected terrorists,
This is a suspicion at best. You don't know that any or some of the people involved with the attacks in some way don't know Jahjah's location or home address. The information absolutely has the potential to be useful.
posted by Dysk at 1:59 AM on November 23, 2015
And in this instance, it's hard to see how it could be unfounded. Hence the engaging critically with the request and deciding that it is legit and worth complying with.
As far as I can tell, this guy didn't reveal location or otherwise aid any suspected terrorists,
This is a suspicion at best. You don't know that any or some of the people involved with the attacks in some way don't know Jahjah's location or home address. The information absolutely has the potential to be useful.
posted by Dysk at 1:59 AM on November 23, 2015
You don't know that any or some of the people involved with the attacks in some way don't know Jahjah's location or home address. The information absolutely has the potential to be useful.
Isn't that also just suspicion at best?
It's not even like he's the only one who disobeyed the request, he just seems to be the only one who has gotten attention for it. Unless a bunch of pictures of empty streets, or of police barricades, don't count.
posted by teponaztli at 2:15 AM on November 23, 2015
Isn't that also just suspicion at best?
It's not even like he's the only one who disobeyed the request, he just seems to be the only one who has gotten attention for it. Unless a bunch of pictures of empty streets, or of police barricades, don't count.
posted by teponaztli at 2:15 AM on November 23, 2015
I'm an American living in Belgium, and I am feeling worried about the changes that may happen here in reaction to the Paris attacks and the revelation that several of them were Belgian citizens.
A couple of months ago, a high-ranked American politician wrote an article in the paper here about how Belgium really needed to step up and spend lots more money on weapons and anti-terrorism measures. She said they needed to support the U.S.'s quest against terrorism more completely. And there was a very coherent rebuttal by the paper about why Belgium shouldn't do that: because the money could be better spent on helping and supporting Belgium's citizens, especially its poorest ones, and on its infrastructure. And the social support systems and the infrastructure here are amazing: you can take the train almost anywhere you want and biking is really easy in Flanders anyway, so I know lots of people without cars, and health insurance is so...so reasonable that I still can't quite believe it. And the government foots a lot of the bill for those things, because people in Belgium seem to mostly agree that a government is there to take care of its citizens and to support society. At the time the article came out, all of the Belgians I know scoffed at the idea that the solution to Belgian's problems (and Europe and the U.S.'s problems) was more weapons and more security theater.
But I'm worried that the pressure on Belgium is now so immense that dealing with the real social problems here will get pushed aside in favor of things like putting X-ray scanners in the airports and decreasing privacy protections for citizens, which means that Belgium (and Europe) won't really be any safer than they were before, but there will be less money available for other more helpful things.
posted by colfax at 3:05 AM on November 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
A couple of months ago, a high-ranked American politician wrote an article in the paper here about how Belgium really needed to step up and spend lots more money on weapons and anti-terrorism measures. She said they needed to support the U.S.'s quest against terrorism more completely. And there was a very coherent rebuttal by the paper about why Belgium shouldn't do that: because the money could be better spent on helping and supporting Belgium's citizens, especially its poorest ones, and on its infrastructure. And the social support systems and the infrastructure here are amazing: you can take the train almost anywhere you want and biking is really easy in Flanders anyway, so I know lots of people without cars, and health insurance is so...so reasonable that I still can't quite believe it. And the government foots a lot of the bill for those things, because people in Belgium seem to mostly agree that a government is there to take care of its citizens and to support society. At the time the article came out, all of the Belgians I know scoffed at the idea that the solution to Belgian's problems (and Europe and the U.S.'s problems) was more weapons and more security theater.
But I'm worried that the pressure on Belgium is now so immense that dealing with the real social problems here will get pushed aside in favor of things like putting X-ray scanners in the airports and decreasing privacy protections for citizens, which means that Belgium (and Europe) won't really be any safer than they were before, but there will be less money available for other more helpful things.
posted by colfax at 3:05 AM on November 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
el io: "it doesn't seem appropriate that the police be expressing a very political opinion"Why not? The police is a political tool anyway. Usually they try to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity, but it's refreshing when someone breaks the script.
posted by brokkr at 3:20 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks colfax for your kind words on my country. With the recent massive rise to power of Flemish Nationalists (NV-A) who adhere to very right-wing economic principles, this all could very well change rapidly however...
There's no denying the power on display since the Paris attacks is directly related to this majority party's world view.
posted by Captain Fetid at 3:37 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's no denying the power on display since the Paris attacks is directly related to this majority party's world view.
posted by Captain Fetid at 3:37 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's not even like he's the only one who disobeyed the request, he just seems to be the only one who has gotten attention for it. Unless a bunch of pictures of empty streets, or of police barricades, don't count.
They do count. Those are also problematic. I just haven't seen anyone defending them, specifically.
posted by Dysk at 4:18 AM on November 23, 2015
They do count. Those are also problematic. I just haven't seen anyone defending them, specifically.
posted by Dysk at 4:18 AM on November 23, 2015
What's happening here? I wanted to see kittens...
My husband drove down to Belgium during the lockdown on Saturday to visit some friends who live just outside Brussels. He said it was really weird to see lots of policemen/military with automatic weapons along the way - not your everyday sight in Belgium.
Everyone's quite calm about the whole thing, but it looks like this week is going to become a real hassle for the Belgian side of our family, what with the schools remaining closed, public transport being spotty, etc.
It's almost like the chaos they get whenever it snows more than an inch...
posted by sively at 4:25 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
My husband drove down to Belgium during the lockdown on Saturday to visit some friends who live just outside Brussels. He said it was really weird to see lots of policemen/military with automatic weapons along the way - not your everyday sight in Belgium.
Everyone's quite calm about the whole thing, but it looks like this week is going to become a real hassle for the Belgian side of our family, what with the schools remaining closed, public transport being spotty, etc.
It's almost like the chaos they get whenever it snows more than an inch...
posted by sively at 4:25 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be honest, I really have to squint hard to try to see things from the American perspective (Ferguson, police brutality, abuse of power) to understand the free speech argument in this thread. From my POV, the Belgian police made a reasonable, pragmatic request, most people were trying to be helpful, a few decided not to, and they are now facing criticism (and not legal repercussions!), c'est tout.
During the Bataclan siege even some news organizations were at first tweeting footage of troops gathering outside the concert venue. It was obvious how that posed a huge safety risk for everyone involved (and many people on the French Twitter were shouting at the broadcasters to cut it out even before the authorities issued the temporary embargo). I think the Belgian police was perfectly within their rights to ask people not to inadvertently endanger any operations with their Twitter megaphones.
It's basically the free speech vs. shouting fire in a crowded theatre thing once again, no? And I think in this case there was a chance an unfortunate tweet could've become the latter. And that's what I believe the Belgian police's tweet about freedom of speech vs. safety meant. It was not a political stance in favour of an Orwellian security/police state, rather than "Srsly, you're potentially putting people at risk just because you can?"
posted by sively at 4:39 AM on November 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
During the Bataclan siege even some news organizations were at first tweeting footage of troops gathering outside the concert venue. It was obvious how that posed a huge safety risk for everyone involved (and many people on the French Twitter were shouting at the broadcasters to cut it out even before the authorities issued the temporary embargo). I think the Belgian police was perfectly within their rights to ask people not to inadvertently endanger any operations with their Twitter megaphones.
It's basically the free speech vs. shouting fire in a crowded theatre thing once again, no? And I think in this case there was a chance an unfortunate tweet could've become the latter. And that's what I believe the Belgian police's tweet about freedom of speech vs. safety meant. It was not a political stance in favour of an Orwellian security/police state, rather than "Srsly, you're potentially putting people at risk just because you can?"
posted by sively at 4:39 AM on November 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
The Belgian Federal Police thanks the cats that helped them yesterday.
posted by sively at 4:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by sively at 4:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
A lot of you appear to be willing to cut your nose to spite your face. I am really quite dumbfounded that all y'all believe aiding terrorists is more important than staying silent for an afternoon. Friends like that, who needs enemies?
posted by five fresh fish at 4:50 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 4:50 AM on November 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
While the opposing side appear to be willing to cut off your nose to save your face.
posted by distorte at 5:25 AM on November 23, 2015
posted by distorte at 5:25 AM on November 23, 2015
Wow what an odd way this thread has developed.
Wonder if it comes from Europe and the USA having a very different experience of WW2? "Loose lips sink ships" etc.
Now back to the cats. What is on the back of the flying ones?
posted by 92_elements at 5:32 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wonder if it comes from Europe and the USA having a very different experience of WW2? "Loose lips sink ships" etc.
Now back to the cats. What is on the back of the flying ones?
posted by 92_elements at 5:32 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have to correct myself. That phrase was only used in America.
posted by 92_elements at 5:41 AM on November 23, 2015
posted by 92_elements at 5:41 AM on November 23, 2015
I certainly understand the Anerican perspective. A black man was just shot to death by the police in Minneapolis while in handcuffs, according to witnesses. Post-911, innocent Muslims were the targets of American security theater, which included harassment by the police.
I mean, maybe the police force in Brussels never arrests or shoots anybody they oughtn't, but, in America, the police asking for a blackout, for some communities, is the police asking for licensed racism without oversight.
posted by maxsparber at 5:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean, maybe the police force in Brussels never arrests or shoots anybody they oughtn't, but, in America, the police asking for a blackout, for some communities, is the police asking for licensed racism without oversight.
posted by maxsparber at 5:48 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the police only asked for a (few hours ?) delay in reporting. Not no reporting at all. Certainly that's how the Guardian and BBC conveyed it.
I'd have much more concerns if it was don't report what happens tonight for 6 months/never.
I see it more like the police defining a crime scene and not allowing people to enter for a necessary period.
Didn't the Munich 1972 tragic outcome partly come down to the terrorists watching the live news feed on the TV?
posted by 92_elements at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd have much more concerns if it was don't report what happens tonight for 6 months/never.
I see it more like the police defining a crime scene and not allowing people to enter for a necessary period.
Didn't the Munich 1972 tragic outcome partly come down to the terrorists watching the live news feed on the TV?
posted by 92_elements at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I came here for cats dammit, so here's one. His name is Jameson because my friend likes to name her pets after liquor.
posted by numaner at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Up until relatively recently (pre-9/11), the Belgian intelligence agency, the VSSE, had ad-hoc agreements in place with various terrorist groups that they would essentially offer terrorists safe harbour so long as they didn't actually carry out any attacks within the borders. They would be watched but would also be provided with notice should any other foreign intelligence agencies came sniffing around.
Koen Dassen, head of the VSSE, lost his job over it in 2006. 32 agents assigned to watching a known terrorist - Fehriye Erdal, failed to notice her skipping town. The suspicion was at the time that this was extremely unlikely and less a case of ineptitude than simply letting her walk.
I can't access my list of really sad and uninteresting stuff from work but I seem to recall an open letter to the king from a proscribed North African group doing the rounds around the mid-noughties as well. This pretty much blew the secret open wide but I'm having trouble finding links through the usual searches at the moment. It may also have featured in one of the many espionage/intelligence/spy/crime books I read around this time but yeah, that was a weird period in Europe and
posted by longbaugh at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Koen Dassen, head of the VSSE, lost his job over it in 2006. 32 agents assigned to watching a known terrorist - Fehriye Erdal, failed to notice her skipping town. The suspicion was at the time that this was extremely unlikely and less a case of ineptitude than simply letting her walk.
I can't access my list of really sad and uninteresting stuff from work but I seem to recall an open letter to the king from a proscribed North African group doing the rounds around the mid-noughties as well. This pretty much blew the secret open wide but I'm having trouble finding links through the usual searches at the moment. It may also have featured in one of the many espionage/intelligence/spy/crime books I read around this time but yeah, that was a weird period in Europe and
posted by longbaugh at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
#purrfect
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:02 AM on November 23, 2015
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:02 AM on November 23, 2015
It's basically the free speech vs. shouting fire in a crowded theatre thing once again, no?
It strikes me as a lot of security theater . . .
[In] Belgium . . . there is no constitutional right to free speech.
Let us exercise our freedom of speech by shouting "theatre!" at this crowded fire.
posted by Herodios at 7:10 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It strikes me as a lot of security theater . . .
[In] Belgium . . . there is no constitutional right to free speech.
Let us exercise our freedom of speech by shouting "theatre!" at this crowded fire.
posted by Herodios at 7:10 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Covington, KY, March 21, 2013 : Teen convicted of second-degree disorderly conduct, sentenced to not say "bingo" for six months for falsely shouting "bingo" in a crowded bingo hall.
posted by Herodios at 7:40 AM on November 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Abou Jahjah:"The spokesman of the Federal police just called me to say that they made communication mistakes yesterday and today on twitter. #Respect"
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 7:51 AM on November 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Deece BJ Pancake at 7:51 AM on November 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Federal police acknowledging last night's social media play-along/contribution (and directly engaging with a potential contrarian voice) seems seriously civilized stuff, even just from an Italian perspective - both would be very unlikely to happen here, so: props to Belgium!
posted by progosk at 8:15 AM on November 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by progosk at 8:15 AM on November 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Police make a reasonable request. Guy complies more or less with the spirit of the request, but not the letter in making a vague tweet.
To me that seems like everything is as it should be.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:17 AM on November 23, 2015
To me that seems like everything is as it should be.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:17 AM on November 23, 2015
... And then any tweets with actual information were drowned out by people exercising their right to post cats. Which is awesome.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:22 AM on November 23, 2015
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:22 AM on November 23, 2015
His tweet complied with the letter of the embargo, but was clearly posted in order to mock the embargo and the need for it. He is an asshole.
I prefer the term "hero." Somebody had to do it--no one else had the guts.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:51 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I prefer the term "hero." Somebody had to do it--no one else had the guts.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:51 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, it might not be necessary to have an army of people take down a suspect or three.
Being fair, I think the fact they were after suspects linked to the same group as the raid in St Denis kind of puts the lie to that.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2015
Being fair, I think the fact they were after suspects linked to the same group as the raid in St Denis kind of puts the lie to that.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2015
If something happens, no matter what the government does, the opposition will be critical. The only way to mute those critics is prevent the incident from happening. The directives don't seem to acomplish that. Instead it seems like the Belgians are making a big show of it to get the French off their backs after Paris.
The authorities are telling everyone that an attack is imminent, but they have provided no information of substance. They've closed schools, shutdown metro, silenced social media and arrested some suspects. The lack of anything concrete in terms of suspects, numbers or actual targets provides no ability of external review of the actions by experts or the opposition. In a few days they will reopen the schools and resume operations; but how will anyone know the danger has passed? The shutdowns suggest that the state cannot secure these facilities against an unknown number of potential terrorists who might be in the country.
posted by humanfont at 1:09 PM on November 23, 2015
The authorities are telling everyone that an attack is imminent, but they have provided no information of substance. They've closed schools, shutdown metro, silenced social media and arrested some suspects. The lack of anything concrete in terms of suspects, numbers or actual targets provides no ability of external review of the actions by experts or the opposition. In a few days they will reopen the schools and resume operations; but how will anyone know the danger has passed? The shutdowns suggest that the state cannot secure these facilities against an unknown number of potential terrorists who might be in the country.
posted by humanfont at 1:09 PM on November 23, 2015
humanfont: " In a few days they will reopen the schools and resume operations ..."They just extended the lockdown for another week today. To me it seems like the terrorists won this round as well.
posted by brokkr at 2:28 PM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
They just extended the lockdown for another week today. To me it seems like the terrorists won this round as well.
Oof. Really? Like I said, I'm hoping this is all legit stuff based on serious info and not politics and/or paranoia at work.
Putting a city into lockdown (whatever that means) for a week is certainly the sort of thing asshole terrorists would proclaim as a victory. The thing is, though, Da'esh are exactly the kind of assholes who will proclaim a victory no matter what happens. At some point we have to stop giving a damn about how they define winning, because in their minds, they always win.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:24 PM on November 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oof. Really? Like I said, I'm hoping this is all legit stuff based on serious info and not politics and/or paranoia at work.
Putting a city into lockdown (whatever that means) for a week is certainly the sort of thing asshole terrorists would proclaim as a victory. The thing is, though, Da'esh are exactly the kind of assholes who will proclaim a victory no matter what happens. At some point we have to stop giving a damn about how they define winning, because in their minds, they always win.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:24 PM on November 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The alert is extended but schools and transit will start to re-open in the next day or so.
posted by humanfont at 6:21 PM on November 23, 2015
posted by humanfont at 6:21 PM on November 23, 2015
From France (not Belgium), but relevant nonetheless:
posted by daveliepmann at 12:42 AM on November 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
All over France, from Toulouse in the south to Paris and beyond, the police have been breaking down doors, conducting searches without warrants, aggressively questioning residents, hauling suspects to police stations and putting others under house arrest.
The extraordinary steps are now perfectly legal under the state of emergency decreed by the government...The police are now free to pick up and interrogate suspects virtually at will.Source: NYT. In Belgium, also from the NYT:
Prime Minister Charles Michel...said he would seek constitutional changes to extend the length of time suspects can be held by the police without the filing of charges to 72 hours, from 24.
His plan calls for the imprisonment of [people suspected to be] jihadists returning to Belgium from overseas, and would require anyone deemed a threat to wear an ankle bracelet. The plan would also ban the anonymous sale of telephone SIM cards that allow [people] to hide their identities; would remove restrictions on what times of day the police are permitted to conduct raids on [suspects]; and would allow the authorities to arrest or expel religious figures “who preach hatred.”This is what I mean by understanding both the police request and the refusal of some to submit themselves totally to the precise letter of that request. Civil liberties are lost to state control like a bolt being tightened by a ratchet. One should be skeptical that only the civil liberties of terrorists will be abrogated. What rights were ignored in the police actions that were tweeted about? How many non-terrorists have been swept up? Or do you think the police are perfectly clairvoyant, and only violently interrogate, search, and arrest the guilty? That would be quite a trick.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:42 AM on November 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
There was a report on De Redactie yesterday that I think you guys might find interesting, its in Flemish, but the impact really is visual: Brussels today: photographer shows how he can manipulate reality
posted by Blasdelb at 1:34 AM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Blasdelb at 1:34 AM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Can't favourite that hard enough, Blasdelb.
So much more media-forensics should be happening, to head off (or at least prepare for) the prefab opinion tsunami that's swelling.
posted by progosk at 1:58 AM on November 24, 2015
So much more media-forensics should be happening, to head off (or at least prepare for) the prefab opinion tsunami that's swelling.
posted by progosk at 1:58 AM on November 24, 2015
HLN is now giving a sense of just how bad the security apparatus has fucked everything up,
posted by Blasdelb at 2:38 AM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Police had to carry out anti-terrorist actions too early"In addition to not even finding the usual paint thinners and bleach that could be described as 'bomb making materials,' they haven't even found much in the way people they can justify holding onto.
"Well, it was a pre-emptive strike. The actions took place under pressure and were therefore too early ' An "informed sources" inside the security De Tijd
Sunday kept the security services 22 searches in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Anderlecht, Jette, Schaerbeek, Saint-Lambert, Frost and Charleroi. Yesterday morning there were another seven house searches. In total, 22 people were arrested, but 18 of them have been freed. One person has been arrested over the remaining three will be decided later today. The most wanted man in Europe, Salah Abdeslam, is still not contained. "Well, it was a pre-emptive strike. And the actions took place under pressure and came too early," says a "well-informed source" in the security in De Tijd. "But there are still some safe houses closed down, shelters, which the terrorists already can not use anymore." "Yet these were certainly not blind operations. We know who and what we seek, but research takes time", he says. "Let's wait for the analysis of all papers, the wiretaps, the scientific expertise, and so on." The raids no explosives or weapons were found. Then earlier this year a terrorist cell in Verviers was rolled up, it became clear terrorists at the last moment all perpetrators and their weapons together in one place, to strike immediately.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:38 AM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
The cat thing is pretty neat and heartwarming, but we shouldn't lose track of how the fuckers who have now ground the capital of Europe to a halt to catch one dude with absolutely nothing to show for it are the same fuckers who earlier this year were caught fabricating 'multiple foiled terror attacks in Belgium' to justify the layers of political patronage that got them their inflated salaries, for years had an active terrorist on their payroll as an 'informant,' and have yet to get more subtle about anti-terror investigations than simply rounding up brown people.
There really is nothing sinister about the cat thing, or even waiting a couple of days to interrogate the security apparatus' response, despite all appearances Belgium is a secure democracy that isn't going to collapse in the span of a few days. Its honestly just all unambiguously lovely, the meaningful alternative of what the French media did during the most recent attacks and the Hebedo one can go fuck itself. What is concerning are the inherent structural problems built into the Belgian political system that have made this whole business such a ridiculous farce. Its the absurd number of redundant governments, police forces, and judicial systems all defending their turf and patronage instead of accomplishing their goals, its both the inability of just about anyone here (particularly in Flanders) to talk about the issue without getting really racist as well as the inability for just about anyone to have dead necessary conversations about things that intersect with race without getting distracted by that racism, and its the sort of bizarre and characteristically Belgian complacency with how fucked up everything is that hasn't been shaken at all.
As Fred Rogers said, we should look for the helpers, and the sheer number of helpers over the last week here is inspiring, but we should also then look to the people fucking shit up - and its not just the terrorists.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:38 AM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
There really is nothing sinister about the cat thing, or even waiting a couple of days to interrogate the security apparatus' response, despite all appearances Belgium is a secure democracy that isn't going to collapse in the span of a few days. Its honestly just all unambiguously lovely, the meaningful alternative of what the French media did during the most recent attacks and the Hebedo one can go fuck itself. What is concerning are the inherent structural problems built into the Belgian political system that have made this whole business such a ridiculous farce. Its the absurd number of redundant governments, police forces, and judicial systems all defending their turf and patronage instead of accomplishing their goals, its both the inability of just about anyone here (particularly in Flanders) to talk about the issue without getting really racist as well as the inability for just about anyone to have dead necessary conversations about things that intersect with race without getting distracted by that racism, and its the sort of bizarre and characteristically Belgian complacency with how fucked up everything is that hasn't been shaken at all.
As Fred Rogers said, we should look for the helpers, and the sheer number of helpers over the last week here is inspiring, but we should also then look to the people fucking shit up - and its not just the terrorists.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:38 AM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I love Belgium, and the people that live there have always been so kind to this non-linguistically capable traveller, I really hope that everything calms down and peace and normality return as soon as possible.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:00 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:00 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Regarding media forensics, here's a Grauniad view: from fear to loathing, by way of made-up facts.
Leafing through a middle-of-the-road Italian daily here today, I came across a front page headline "Four immigrants expelled" which lead to a page five article titled "Four Muslims expelled" - enough for pause already; the account of what happened then listed the individuals as including one Italian and one Frenchman (by nationality), and described their expulsion by ministerial decree quite matter-of-factly following a magistrate's "refusal" to incriminate them (for insufficient evidence).
And there's no state of emergency here that I'm aware of...
posted by progosk at 2:29 PM on November 24, 2015
Leafing through a middle-of-the-road Italian daily here today, I came across a front page headline "Four immigrants expelled" which lead to a page five article titled "Four Muslims expelled" - enough for pause already; the account of what happened then listed the individuals as including one Italian and one Frenchman (by nationality), and described their expulsion by ministerial decree quite matter-of-factly following a magistrate's "refusal" to incriminate them (for insufficient evidence).
And there's no state of emergency here that I'm aware of...
posted by progosk at 2:29 PM on November 24, 2015
My roommate is from Brussels. I mentioned this and at first she said she was a little embarrassed because she thought people would think it was silly, but I assured her the Internet response is that it is considered cool.
Then she told me - the Belgian police wanted to thank everyone for not tweeting potential security breaches and doing cats instead, so they tweeted - a picture of some cat food.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:59 PM on November 24, 2015
Then she told me - the Belgian police wanted to thank everyone for not tweeting potential security breaches and doing cats instead, so they tweeted - a picture of some cat food.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:59 PM on November 24, 2015
And now I see the cat food news has been shared already oops
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 PM on November 24, 2015
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 PM on November 24, 2015
the fuckers who have now ground the capital of Europe to a halt to catch one dude with absolutely nothing to show for it are the same fuckers who earlier this year were caught fabricating 'multiple foiled terror attacks in Belgium' to justify the layers of political patronage that got them their inflated salaries, for years had an active terrorist on their payroll as an 'informant,'
That's sadly not surprising. Yes, Belgium is a stable, functioning democracy (although at times that stability seems nothing short of a miracle, cf. all the months without an elected government). Belgium is also often a hot mess where al sorts of shadiness and corruption can fester in the cracks of a multi-layered, Byzantine bureaucracy.
And IMO the Belgian State Security Service really deserves careful scrutiny. No question.
But I am firmly of the meaning that that is a different issue from broadcasting live about a police operation taking place outside your window - certainly in a situation where they may be getting ready to storm a building where someone may realistically be getting prepared to blow themselves up. Yes, the particular tweet discussed here probably didn't contain information useful to any potential terrorist holed up inside. But it's way within the realm of possibility that some jackass could just as well decide to livetweet about the snipers getting ready on the roof opposite, or that hey, there seem to actually be two teams one of which is approaching from above, or that wow they're moving in now. That's why I think the police request for a temporary radio silence was completely understandable. How is this even a question? (Again, I have to remind myself of the deep cynicism with which Americans - admittedly with good reason - regard their own police forces.)
the inability of just about anyone here (particularly in Flanders) to talk about the issue without getting really racist as well as the inability for just about anyone to have dead necessary conversations about things that intersect with race without getting distracted by that racism, and its the sort of bizarre and characteristically Belgian complacency with how fucked up everything is that hasn't been shaken at all.
Yes. All true. These were among some key reasons why we never considered settling down in Belgium. There is some serious ugliness there, and great waffles. That said:
have yet to get more subtle about anti-terror investigations than simply rounding up brown people.
This seems to me... a huge hyperbole, to put it mildly. My impression is that there really is a serious investigation going on, not just haphazard arrestations, and they seem to have made progress.
posted by sively at 2:02 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's sadly not surprising. Yes, Belgium is a stable, functioning democracy (although at times that stability seems nothing short of a miracle, cf. all the months without an elected government). Belgium is also often a hot mess where al sorts of shadiness and corruption can fester in the cracks of a multi-layered, Byzantine bureaucracy.
And IMO the Belgian State Security Service really deserves careful scrutiny. No question.
But I am firmly of the meaning that that is a different issue from broadcasting live about a police operation taking place outside your window - certainly in a situation where they may be getting ready to storm a building where someone may realistically be getting prepared to blow themselves up. Yes, the particular tweet discussed here probably didn't contain information useful to any potential terrorist holed up inside. But it's way within the realm of possibility that some jackass could just as well decide to livetweet about the snipers getting ready on the roof opposite, or that hey, there seem to actually be two teams one of which is approaching from above, or that wow they're moving in now. That's why I think the police request for a temporary radio silence was completely understandable. How is this even a question? (Again, I have to remind myself of the deep cynicism with which Americans - admittedly with good reason - regard their own police forces.)
the inability of just about anyone here (particularly in Flanders) to talk about the issue without getting really racist as well as the inability for just about anyone to have dead necessary conversations about things that intersect with race without getting distracted by that racism, and its the sort of bizarre and characteristically Belgian complacency with how fucked up everything is that hasn't been shaken at all.
Yes. All true. These were among some key reasons why we never considered settling down in Belgium. There is some serious ugliness there, and great waffles. That said:
have yet to get more subtle about anti-terror investigations than simply rounding up brown people.
This seems to me... a huge hyperbole, to put it mildly. My impression is that there really is a serious investigation going on, not just haphazard arrestations, and they seem to have made progress.
posted by sively at 2:02 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
There was some sublime amazingness on French television last night. Not only is this not Elio di Rupo, but this is the Reynders who is the Finance minister and di Rupo is no longer the prime minister of Belgium. Nothing about this is remotely correct, the French media has played 'Name a Famous Belgian' and failed, miserably.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:17 AM on November 25, 2015
posted by Blasdelb at 3:17 AM on November 25, 2015
Incidentally, this same dude has apparently said in an interview with the American ABC that there are approximately 10 terrorists still on the lose with heavy weapons and suicide belts. Joy.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:25 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Blasdelb at 3:25 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
AP - Russian crackdown on Muslims fuels exodus to Islamic State
posted by rosswald at 4:56 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rosswald at 4:56 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
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