Dear Lord, thx for the Cap/Bucky team-up beatdown of Tony
November 25, 2015 6:12 AM   Subscribe

 
The fact that this is posted right above a FPP about fanfic is a wonderful bit of synchronicity.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:15 AM on November 25, 2015 [12 favorites]


Tony's line at the end, "I thought I was too..." was pretty much what sealed my excitement. The other excitement, and probably, actually, more exciting, was seeing Black Panther for the first time. Wakanda!
posted by Atreides at 6:29 AM on November 25, 2015 [15 favorites]


It's still such a weird turn for Tony, specifically movie Tony, to become Mr Law and Order. Mr Know It All, sure. But RDJ plays him as such an anti-authoritarian it's tough to reconcile that character with someone who hunts down a friend at the government's bidding. Hopefully the plot will give him a good reason to do so.

That said, I'm excited for Black Panther. I'm glad to see the Falcon to be in a red costume and not fatigues. And that Cap and Bucky vs Iron Man shot is fantastic.
posted by thecjm at 6:30 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


I am now like 99 films behind. Can you still not digitally rent a lot of these? That was what was killing me. A fair number of them were buy-only which is silly for such disposable films.
posted by selfnoise at 6:30 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


T'Challa!
posted by Artw at 6:31 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Psst! Steve Rogers loves Bucky Barnes. Pass it on.
posted by Windigo at 6:32 AM on November 25, 2015 [21 favorites]


I imagine that after Tony's nearly world ending mistake in Avengers 2 he would reconcile joining the Government as a form of oversight to prevent problems like he created.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:34 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's still such a weird turn for Tony, specifically movie Tony, to become Mr Law and Order.

I don't know, Iron Man III sets him up pretty well for it.

(I've no idea if Ultron undoes any of that, it sounds a bit sloppy as characterization goes)
posted by Artw at 6:37 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, it's not clear if it plays a part in the movie, but in Cap 2 it was revealed that Bucky (as Winter Soldier) assassinated Tony's parents.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:37 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


Tony Stark has always been a somewhat reluctant good guy in the movies.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:37 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


I was telling my husband that it feels very clear to me that Cap wanting to track down/reform Bucky is less helping out an old friend than "I not so seekritly love u". But then I got hot and bothered at the team-up scene, so...
posted by Kitteh at 6:38 AM on November 25, 2015 [8 favorites]


Also Tony is probably pissed because Power Man is getting all the action in the MCU right now.
posted by Artw at 6:39 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Marvel has "But he's my friend." "So was I."

DC has "Tell me, DO YOU BLEEEEED?"

Maybe I'll be proven wrong in a few months, but right now, it feels like a nice capsule summary of the differing approaches involved in each "cinematic universe."
posted by incomple at 6:39 AM on November 25, 2015 [24 favorites]


Rob Delaney weighs in.
posted by saladin at 6:40 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Tony's line at the end, "I thought I was too..." was pretty much what sealed my excitement.

Eh, I feel like Marvel/Disney are trying to squeeze emotional resonance out of a relationship that doesn't exist—hasn't been set up to exist—the way they want to pretend it does. Is there anything in the preceding movies that suggests Iron Man or Captain America are anything other than barely tolerant of one another? Just because you're coworkers doesn't mean you're pals.
posted by echocollate at 6:40 AM on November 25, 2015 [16 favorites]


Yeah, there was enough in that trailer to keep Cap/Bucky shippers going for days, which I am definitely not complaining about.

It does make it sound like Nat is taking Tony's side? I don't remember whose side she falls on in the comics but I feel like after Winter Soldier she should be siding with Steve.
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:40 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


I was nervous about this one, because I really liked Winter Soldier and I was afraid that it would sink under the weight of too many characters, but I'm cautiously optimistic. The trailer definitely centers it as a movie about Steve Rogers and makes it seem less likely that they'll go trying to shoe horn in side plots for every single character. Put Scarlet Witch on a team fine, and explain it, but giving her too much will just short change her and everyone else, which was a major problem with Avengers 2.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:41 AM on November 25, 2015


I too have never believed for a minute that Cap and Tony were friends. Co-workers, yes, but friends? Nope.
posted by Kitteh at 6:42 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'll admit it: I just peed a little!
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:42 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Steve: He's my friend.
Tony: So was I.
Steve: ...okay, I never actually said that.
Tony: You totally did.
Steve: I'm pretty sure I'd remember that.
Natasha: Yeah, Tony, I think that only happened in your head.
Clint: I never heard it.
Tony: HE TOTALLY SAID I WAS HIS FRIEND.
Nick: I've recorded everything you people have said since the first movie. He never said that, Tony.
Tony: But...but...
Pepper: Tony...you're kind of a dick.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:42 AM on November 25, 2015 [58 favorites]


I am so excited for this adaptation of a widely despised Mark Millar comic.
posted by Artw at 6:42 AM on November 25, 2015 [15 favorites]


I am totally willing to believe that Tony thinks that anybody who barely tolerates him counts as a friend.
posted by Sequence at 6:45 AM on November 25, 2015 [72 favorites]


One of the things I usually like about the Marvel Universe is that its implausible events are usually happening in real places. The evil Canadian government is torturing people in its weapon X super soldier project.

It saddens me when parts of the globe about which Americans are ill informed get made-up countries added to them. It seems like Orientalism. I'd prefer to imagine that in the Marvel Universe the Black Panther comes from techno-utopian Malawi, while Dr. Doom rules Albania.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:46 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


The actors are giving 100%, but why does this look like a TV show? I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is a movie that could literally make a billion dollars. Why does it all seem to take place in a conference room, a garage and a parking lot?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:46 AM on November 25, 2015


Cap sure likes hanging out in stairwells.
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


while Dr. Doom rules Albania.

Latvia.
posted by Artw at 6:49 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Maybe I'll be proven wrong in a few months, but right now, it feels like a nice capsule summary of the differing approaches involved in each "cinematic universe."

I've given up on the DCCU entirely. Stick to TV, especially Arrow and The Flash, where you get King Shark, Gorilla Grodd (and Gorilla City), Earth-2 wonkery, and Vandal-goddamn-Savage. At this point, they could introduce Rex The Motherfucking Wonderdog and it (1) wouldn't be a surprise, and (2) would probably be awesome.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:50 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


Cap sure likes hanging out in stairwells.

*cough*rough trade *cough*
posted by Kitteh at 6:50 AM on November 25, 2015 [17 favorites]


The Black Panther costume is the shit yo.
posted by echocollate at 6:58 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Tony and Cap pretty much meet up in Avengers, and by the end of the film, there's definitely a level of mutual respect. By the start of Age of Ultron they're all palling around at Tony's place (that excellent Thor's hammer scene, for example). Don't forget, they have been fighting together for quite a while now, so you get that added layer of 'band of brothers' to their relationship.

I think a friendship, perhaps not besties, but a friendship definitely has been established.
posted by Atreides at 6:59 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


The actors are giving 100%, but why does this look like a TV show?

I really wish that the MCU films looked more like TV, specifically more like Daredevil and Jessica Jones. I've always been a little disappointed at how generic the visuals look in most of the Marvel movies but the two Netflix series look great.
posted by octothorpe at 7:00 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The actors are giving 100%, but why does this look like a TV show?

No wide shots yet because those end up taking a lot longer to CGI?
posted by thecjm at 7:02 AM on November 25, 2015 [8 favorites]


I don't know. Cap 3 is still the MCU film I am second-least excited about (above Ant 2). But I will still no doubt go see it in the theater and have a good time.
posted by Foosnark at 7:03 AM on November 25, 2015


while Dr. Doom rules Albania.

Latvia.

Which Doom pronounces as "Latveria", for the same reason that British people say "al-yoo-mini-yum".
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:06 AM on November 25, 2015 [13 favorites]


I think the Tony Stark "So was I" line totally works for the character, even given that the two aren't actually all that close. Movie Tony is entirely self-absorbed and narcissistic, and beyond that also prone to recreational snark and argument-as-a-hobby. And even when the argument isn't strictly recreational, he's used to resolving things in a purely logical fashion, and expects the emotions surrounding those arguments to dissipate once the issue is settled...his own, and everyone else's.

So, he can snarl at Cap over and over again ("we are not soldiers", "isn't that why we fight"), needle him endlessly, and still sort of believe that underneath it all they're really good friends, because they're allies. Never noticing all the while that Cap doesn't relate to people the same way, and so takes those disagreements, and Tony's attitude, at face value, as indicative of real differences in values.

It's basically 21st century irony failing to understand pre-war seriousness. And then getting hurt when it turns out relationships cannot work exclusively on your own terms.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:07 AM on November 25, 2015 [49 favorites]




Movie Tony is entirely self-absorbed and narcissistic, and beyond that also prone to recreational snark and argument-as-a-hobby. And even when the argument isn't strictly recreational, he's used to resolving things in a purely logical fashion, and expects the emotions surrounding those arguments to dissipate once the issue is settled...his own, and everyone else's.

It's also worth pointing out that while the mess that was Avengers 2 did little to remind us, back in Iron Man 3 his experiences really changed his self-confidence and attitude towards the government and friends like Rhodes. When you consider that his parents already died literally at Bucky's hand and the trailer makes it look like [ANOTHER TRAGEDY MAY BE HAPPENING LA LA LA SPOILER FINGERS IN EARS] his "Civil War" with Cap at this point feels plausible. They've really done a pretty decent job setting this up, IMHO.
posted by trackofalljades at 7:14 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ipsifendus: I love your analysis of both characters (especially the point about irony/generational worldviews), but I also think it's a sophisticated reading of much less sophisticated material and gives the screenwriters too much credit. I mean, it's just a trailer and, you know, editing. But it seems presented as a trumped up emotional moment that we're expected to take at face value. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll still see the movie because Captain America is my favorite character and Chris Evans' portrayal is unimpeachable. Winter Soldier earned Marvel enough good credit with me to see what they do with it.
posted by echocollate at 7:19 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


One of the things I usually like about the Marvel Universe is that its implausible events are usually happening in real places. The evil Canadian government is torturing people in its weapon X super soldier project.

I thought that Canadians voted out their evil government last month?
posted by fairmettle at 7:26 AM on November 25, 2015 [11 favorites]


I am now like 99 films behind. Can you still not digitally rent a lot of these? That was what was killing me. A fair number of them were buy-only which is silly for such disposable films.

I think most of them are on Netflix, though I'm not sure about the latest ones.
posted by kmz at 7:27 AM on November 25, 2015


The actors are giving 100%, but why does this look like a TV show? I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is a movie that could literally make a billion dollars. Why does it all seem to take place in a conference room, a garage and a parking lot?

I agree. The main thing I noticed was the flat, workman-like quality of... pretty much everything. The fight choreography even looks bland for what should be showing highlights of the movie. After how I felt with Avengers 2, I'll be giving this a hard pass.
posted by codacorolla at 7:28 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Giving short hairy septuagenarians unbreakable metal claws is a tripartisan policy, fairmettle.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:29 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's still such a weird turn for Tony, specifically movie Tony, to become Mr Law and Order. Mr Know It All, sure. But RDJ plays him as such an anti-authoritarian it's tough to reconcile that character with someone who hunts down a friend at the government's bidding. Hopefully the plot will give him a good reason to do so.

I think, as ArtW pointed out that, that Iron Man III set this up to some extent. The key is really that, even now that he's trying to be a hero in the name of peace, Tony looks at the world like a defense contractor. Supes are unregulated weapons, by his point of view.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:29 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey he got a new wig for this one.
posted by chococat at 7:34 AM on November 25, 2015


YASSSSSSSSS

I hope some of the narrative is class-based, too— Bucky and Steve grew up poor and rough and had only each other, while Tony (and most of the powerful government people he’s backing up here) grew up in the lap of privilege. Steve’s completely merited wariness about a government that says “trust us!” despite its constant refusal to be trustworthy in any way is naturally in opposition to Tony’s whole “the devil you know” approach.

Also, thinking of this fight as Brooklyn vs. LA pleases me somewhat.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:41 AM on November 25, 2015 [14 favorites]


it's a sophisticated reading of much less sophisticated material

What, are you new here?

Joking, of course. But that's 90% of internet fandom summed up in a phrase. And maybe like 60% of how I personally spend my free time. Ask me my thoughts on professional wrestling! Also: giving the screenwriters credit, merited or otherwise, doesn't enter into it...it's strictly a game of textual interpretation.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:52 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


Tony is totally set up to become Mr. Law and Order - and Artw Ultron only reinforces that, because you can see that Tony will take exactly the wrong lesson from his attempts to create an AI savior.

Sure Tony is played as anti-authoritarian, and that doesn't have to change; he's never going to be excited about people telling him what to do. But given his "I do everything all the time" attention span he perhaps better than anyone else in the Avengers has a sense of the capabilities being unleashed around the world; he's seen SHIELD fall apart, knows that given what has already happened it's only a matter of time before the next existential threat to humanity appears. His dialogue in Ultron backs this up too. He, in his cynicism, lacks Cap's faith that the Avengers will be equal to the challenge.

This is a great parallel to real life too; a couple people with a bit of funding and know-how can command destructive power on a scale available only to nation states in past centuries. Tony is representative of the tech sector elite; libertarian ideals shadowed by authoritarian thinking. Every fight about whether Facebook or Google can force you to use your real name, or whether tech companies should allow the NSA to backdoor their products, is recapitulating the argument between Tony and Steve.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:08 AM on November 25, 2015 [12 favorites]


The Whelk will no doubt scoff and chastise me but to me Tony's true BFF is puny Banner. Sure, Steve and Tony are somewhat friends but not besties by any means. Not sure who Thor is pals with? The Vision?
posted by Ber at 8:15 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


I basically spent this entire trailer weeping over Bucky Barnes and the Steve/Bucky relationship, so...this movie is gonna be good for me, I think. Admittedly I wanted a Cap 3 that was Steve, Sam, and Natasha on an Up All Night to Get Bucky roadtrip, but this trailer gives me a lot more hope for Civil War.

I did laugh inappropriately at Tony's "So was I." Like, when, Tony? You two spent all of the first Avengers arguing and fighting together as an admittedly effective team, and then you spent all of Age of Ultron arguing and fighting together while being marginally more friendly with each other. Sorry Tony, Bucky is Steve's Person and has been since they were tiny poor children in Depression-era Brooklyn, a friendly coworker's got nothing on that. I hope Civil War doesn't hinge too much on this all telling, no showing Steve/Tony friendship when a much more believable relationship exists with Steve/Natasha, one that has a lot more dramatic and narrative heft if Natasha isn't on Steve's side in Civil War.
posted by yasaman at 8:16 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


Anti-authoritarians are often usefully and more accurately described as 'anti-anyone-but-me-authoritarians'. I'd say Tony, rich, playboy, manchild that he is, fits comfortably into that slot. Even though I thought Ultron was a mess, it does make sense for Tony to create an ultimate authority over which he holds a backgrounded power.
posted by codacorolla at 8:17 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm not sure Stark as Captain Reddit/Iron Fedora is really the logical end point of his arc -- I kinda thought that was where he began in the first Iron Man, and that the point of the film was that he had grown out of it -- but I can accept this is the conflict of this film, set up well or not.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:19 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


So what causes the rift? A few possibilities.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:20 AM on November 25, 2015 [10 favorites]


I think the PTSD-inducing experience of nearly dying in distant space during the "Battle of New York" is supposed to have deeply changed Tony. Similarly to how a lot of the authority figures in charge during 9/11 were deeply changed, and basically became authoritarian, over-reacting, lashing-out, cowards. There's probably some symbolic correllary there.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:23 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


I think Tony's feeling sorry for acting like the rules don't apply to him for the last four movies. Shit blew up in his face and he got humbled. Like a born-again hooker, he is cleaving to the straight and narrow.
posted by domo at 8:25 AM on November 25, 2015


Not sure who Thor is pals with? The Vision?

I think he still suffers from the hopeful delusion that it's Loki.
posted by dances with hamsters at 8:25 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


Stark is a technocrat, Silicon Valley, iconoclast. He's the smartest guy in the room, always, which is why Banner makes a good foil/friend for him, and why Pepper is her current incarnation. He's the avatar of Steve Jobs/Larry Ellison/Richard Branson/Elon Musk. Given authority, or even the chance to grab authority, he'll take it, and be utterly ruthless with it.

Hero or villain doesn't really parse in his mind. There's an obvious right thing to do, and you're going to do it. Whether you agree or not doesn't matter. Because Tony knows best.
posted by bonehead at 8:26 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


I am in awe of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or more specifically the business genius behind it. They're able to make a movie a year, several TV shows, etc by mining 50+ years of stories and characters from some wildly creative writing. And generally the quality is pretty good. How many years will this keep going?
posted by Nelson at 8:27 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


I notice we don't see a lot of The Vision, Thor, or Scarlet Witch Wanda Maximoff. Maybe because they are each so powerful they could sort this out in a few minutes?

In other news I really can't decide if I want a Scarlet Witch / The Vision romance in the MCU. It seems hard to pull that off well.
posted by poe at 8:40 AM on November 25, 2015


As for Tony's best friend. What about Rhodes? Or Pepper? Those two have been hanging with Tony since even before Iron Man 1.
posted by FJT at 8:43 AM on November 25, 2015


PSA for anyone who doesn't already know: the original Civil War comic is an awful dumpster fire with maybe one or two good moments, kinda like the Bush administration. It only "works" if you throw out 40+ years of character history and you really don't care about narrative coheshion. The dialogue is off for every character across the board, motivations and actions run completely counter to established behaviors, big issues are brought up at the beginning and then completely ignored...yeah. It's awful. The writer & editor in chief who brought it to us should spend a couple years going to cons and holding apology panels.

The art's very nice, though.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:44 AM on November 25, 2015 [8 favorites]


I'm just going to be over here with my SSR t-shirt and my emotions
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 AM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]


Also, I think a lot of fans sometimes forget that the majority of anyone's positive Steve/Tony feelings (romantic or friendship-wise) are based on comics, fanfic, or adorable tumblr comics. (I include myself in this statement.)

So trailer Tony says "so was I" and a lot of people think of the 8,753 fanfics where Tony and Steve watch Netflix together in Avengers Tower, instead of remembering that Tony has been an unremitting jerkwad to Steve in every movie so far.

(See also: fandom headcanon about Clint/Coulson, and the subsequent outraged response to Clint's secret family)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:48 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


when are they going to do the timeline where tony marries the suit
posted by poffin boffin at 8:48 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm really hoping Natasha "being on Tony's side" is a plant and she's funneling information to Clint, because nothing about her working with Tony over Steve and Clint makes sense in light of her MCU history with Clint or what happened in Cap 2. The trailer still looks good, but the MCU has the inconsistency problem that plagues comics (different writers give characters personality transplants) in spades. Natasha isn't the only example, just the one I care about most.
posted by immlass at 8:51 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


I'm looking at gifs of the trailer and god i have so many feelings about bucky and cap in my pants right now...
posted by Kitteh at 8:54 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


Very Tronny type of soundtrack; I was expecting to hear kettle drums at any time. Lively.
posted by buzzman at 8:57 AM on November 25, 2015


I'm excited for Black Panther.

As a character me too, but not sure about how they've done the mask.

Just before the shot on the black panther there is a distance shot with a guy in costume running across a car park with some grenades or something being fired into some cars in the top right of the screen (1.29). My first thought was BP but the character seems to be carrying a sword and there is a skirted effect to his costume - are we expecting Ronin to turn up in this? Cover identity for Hawkeye?
posted by biffa at 9:15 AM on November 25, 2015


First, let's not obsess over the fact that a trailer for a movie that doesn't come out for five months doesn't include any of the big action set pieces. The scene Cap/Bucky tag-teaming on Iron Man is a hint that the agile, blink-and-you'll-miss-something action scenes that the Russo Brothers brought to TWS will be repeated in this film, but I don't remember much of the widescreen action in AoU being in its trailer, which came off as being much like the first Avengers movie with robots standing in for Chitauri (plus, of course, James Spader monologuing and quoting Pinocchio).

I'm also in agreement with scaryblackdeath above; the less that the movie uses of that "awful dumpster fire", the better. (The bit with Cap escaping from a helicarrier by jumping onto a jet might work.) Here's MeFi's own mightygodking's take on MCW.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:18 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The trailer still looks good, but the MCU has the inconsistency problem that plagues comics (different writers give characters personality transplants) in spades.

Yeah. I'm sick to death of heroes fighting heroes. These storylines always rely on everyone being hyper-aggressive against people whom they normally trust with their lives. They also usually need everyone to just magically (hah!) forget that their world is rife with mind control, doppelgangers, etc.

I'm dearly hoping that Natasha is really on Steve's side, because yeah, turning on him makes NO sense after Cap 2. I'm hoping that Clint sticks with Steve because he knows what it's like to get mind controlled into killing people like Bucky has. I'm really glad that Emily Van Camp (is that her name?) is coming back as Agent 13, which is shown in promo stuff but alas she's not in the trailer.

But I remember when that first list of "Phase 2" movies came out and it had Captain America: Serpent Society on the list instead of Civil War. I really wish that hadn't been a tease. I'd much prefer a stable of snake-themed jackass criminal mercenaries to heroes vs heroes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:20 AM on November 25, 2015


Everything you need to know about the comics version of Civil War. I tried to read the first couple of comics to figure out what was going on. They were crap.

On the other hand, this actually looks good, or at least enjoyable.

I hate that Millar keeps getting movies made of his crap when there is so much better stuff out there. Make a movie out of something Bendis did. Or Vaughn. It's too much to hope for a Ms. Marvel movie, right? (Current Ms. Marvel, not Carol Danvers.)
posted by Hactar at 9:34 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hactar there's ongoing buzz about a Ms. Marvel TV series but nothing solid as far as I know.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:38 AM on November 25, 2015


Make a movie out of something Bendis did

They are! It's a Phase IV movie called, Bunch of Supes Standing Around Arguing, Bantering, and Otherwise Doing Fuck-All.

Watch for it!

For real, though, there is Jessica Jones. And that's good.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:39 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


I also think Ipsifendus's point is convincing re Tony thinking he and Steve are better friends than Steve does. It's a weird asymmetrical relationship, and has been from the start, given that Tony brings his preconceptions and history to it from the moment they meet in the first Avengers, while Tony is just "my dead friend's son" to Steve.

Also, remember, Steve Rogers is the guy who said, "even when I had nothing, I had Bucky." Steve Rogers is the guy who, after 2-3 years in the future, has only really made two new friends in Sam Wilson and Natasha. Steve Rogers is the guy who, before becoming Captain America, basically only had one real friend in Bucky Barnes. When Steve says "He's my friend," it's freighted with a hell of a lot more meaning than Tony probably assumes.

I can bring fanon/other canon in to assume there's a stronger relationship between Steve and Tony than shown in the MCU thus far, but the movies thus far just haven't sold an actual, meaningful Steve/Tony friendship. Joss Whedon just didn't do enough to show it in the Avengers movies, and Steve and Tony were totally absent from each other's solo movies. The Russo brothers and the Captain America scriptwriters have generally exceeded my expectations, but I have real reservations about buying Civil War as a plot if it's going to hinge on a Steve/Tony relationship that can't hold up under the weight. Steve vs. Natasha is where the real conflict of a Civil War plotline in the MCU should be, in the wake of The Winter Soldier movie.
posted by yasaman at 9:43 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


I hate that Millar keeps getting movies made of his crap when there is so much better stuff out there.

It tends to translate rather well, even if it often needs an actual soul grafted on to it.

(Wanted being an exception, obviously)
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on November 25, 2015


Joss Whedon just didn't do enough to show it in the Avengers movies, and Steve and Tony were totally absent from each other's solo movies.

Steve's absence from Iron Man III is glaring, given its overall plot and themes. I'm glad he's not there, because it's better to focus on Tony & his cast...but that's another of my problems with doing this. Tony's presence will suck away screen time better spent on Sam, Natasha, and others who need more attention.

I'm also really glad Whedon won't be writing Cap anymore. I think he's perfectly capable, but I get the feeling that Cap just doesn't appeal to Whedon despite his statements to the contrary. It's also hard for me to hold Avengers 2 against Whedon given the massive checklist of studio mandates he clearly had to satisfy with that film. I came away not loving it (and actively hating a few points of it). I also came away feeling a lot of sympathy for Whedon given what he had to deal with.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:59 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


As a character me too, but not sure about how they've done the mask.

Glad I'm not the only one. When they first showed the costume it seemed like there was light glinting off the edges of the mask but now that we're seeing it for real they're actual painted white highlights? That doesn't look so great.

Also I have no faith in the Russos to make a good superhero movie in general, but I accept that I'm in the minority there.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:04 AM on November 25, 2015


PSA for anyone who doesn't already know: the original Civil War comic is an awful dumpster fire with maybe one or two good moments, kinda like the Bush administration.


Metafilter's own mightygodking did a set of Photoshopped "revisions" way, way back in the day on Livejournal, and it is not an exaggeration to say they're an improvement over the original. I saved my copies years ago, and they're still up on his site here.
posted by sobell at 10:17 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


mightygodking's rewrite is a glorious wonder, yes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:24 AM on November 25, 2015


thank god for this movie honestly, like obviously i haven't seen it or anything but...

like a lot of people have mentioned, the actual civil war run/mark millar in general are terrible and I wasn't worried they'd go too far in that direction or anything (I really don't think they could write Cap tossing out weirdly misogynist insults) but I was really unsure of where exactly this was gonna go/how it was gonna go down.

this? I approve of.

mark millar Cap was the first Cap I ever read and let me tell you it took me years to get over. I love Cap. I hate mark millar
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 10:48 AM on November 25, 2015


I'm also really glad Whedon won't be writing Cap anymore.

Avengers 1 Cap was perfectly fine (where man-out-of-time Cap was indistinguishable from man-out-of-time good Angel), but A2 was such a camel. CA was handled as poorly as everyone else and so was impossible to tell. IMO, the Avengers movies themselves are the problem, and possibly shouldn't be even made, by anyone ever. Casts with more than 5 people get too unwieldy and Whedon knows that very, very well.

It works better in book form, I think, because the reader can stop and think about the writing and the artwork. The movies on the other hand have to get everything done in seconds. They feel hurried and breathless as a result. I can think of no writer or director who has ever pulled off one of these monster cast productions. The later X-Men movies had the same problems.
posted by bonehead at 10:52 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also an ongoing series can focus on a select group of cast members from month to month, a once-every-three-years movie has to feature everybody in a single story.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:53 AM on November 25, 2015


I just...someone hold me. I have SO MUCH WORK to do today and I've accomplished exactly nothing because STEVE AND BUCKY my two favorites TOGETHER AGAIN OMG.

I need to make high-pitched dolphin noises indiscriminately for a while.
posted by Salieri at 11:16 AM on November 25, 2015 [8 favorites]


Saw the trailer was up, saw friends' reactions on Twitter, decided to wait until after work to watch it. 100% right decision, because the fifteen minutes lying on the floor wailing "why can't Steve and Bucky just be haaaaaappy" after watching it would have made me late.
posted by Vortisaur at 11:33 AM on November 25, 2015 [9 favorites]


Boy, they really give away the whole plot in that trailer, huh?
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2015


I know there are going to be issues with this movie. I know I shouldn't have high expectations. But....but.... *heavy breathing*

I AM SO EXCITED and a finely honed ability to suspend all disbelief and revert back into a 12 year old fan-girl has kept me in good stead these past years of Marvel cinematic universe building.

After the travesty that was most of the X-Men movies (my babies!!) they damned well have a lot to make up for.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


You know what trope I'm really sick of? Spy films where the operative is continuously getting disavowed/denied/burned/fired/gone rogue/off the reservation. It's the premise of the Bourne films. Jack Bauer had to deal with a good amount of insider villains. It used to be funny how most Mission Impossible movies has had that happening to Ethan Hunt. It's far less funny now that it's happened to Daniel Craig James Bond in nearly all of his films. And now it's happening to Captain America. When will be done with our post-9/11 anxieties and have good shadowy government wetworks teams to work for who won't betray you?
posted by Apocryphon at 11:38 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


No Speedball? I feel cheated.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:38 AM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's a Phase IV movie called, Bunch of Supes Standing Around Arguing, Bantering, and Otherwise Doing Fuck-All.

Illuminati: The Bickering.
posted by bonehead at 11:38 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Get Hickman on the line!
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


And now it's happening to Captain America. When will be done with our post-9/11 anxieties and have good shadowy government wetworks teams to work for who won't betray you?

Eh. I feel ya, but this has been one of Steve's go-to themes for ages. I mean Marvel basically had him expose Richard Nixon as the leader of the Secret Empire. They didn't name him or show him "on camera" as it were, but those are basically the only levels of deniability built into that scenario.

And then the Reagan administration fired him. And Bill Clinton threw him out of the country. Seriously, I could go on.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:48 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah I get that but it's kinda annoying how they plotted it so that this was the main story conceit that happened one movie ago with The Winter Soldier.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:52 AM on November 25, 2015


I'm okay with this continuing themes from WS, but Iron Man has had to prevent his own creation causing disaster like six times already so they need to do something else with him next time.
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The switch from terrible technical solutions to terrible social solutions seems like a natural evolution for an alpha technogeek. As long as he uses the phrase, "we're disrupting government/democracy" in there somewhere.
posted by bonehead at 11:57 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay if they straight-up make Tony a techbro convinced he's figured out how to disrupt superheroism I'm willing to take back, like, 25% of the bad things I've said about this movie.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:59 AM on November 25, 2015 [6 favorites]


"I've converted the Iron Man suit to dispense Soylent."
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


"It's Uber for personal freedoms."
posted by memento maury at 12:00 PM on November 25, 2015 [13 favorites]


Captain America IV: Reconstruction and the Gilded Age
posted by gottabefunky at 12:02 PM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


I can think of no writer or director who has ever pulled off one of these monster cast productions.

Clearly we need to reincarnate Altman.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:06 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Everyone seemed pretty happy about Avengers, even if everyone seems pretty meh on Ultron.
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on November 25, 2015


So trailer Tony says "so was I" and a lot of people think of the 8,753 fanfics where Tony and Steve watch Netflix together in Avengers Tower, instead of remembering that Tony has been an unremitting jerkwad to Steve in every movie so far.

And the number one person who does that is Tony Stark. "Man, don't you remember when I introduced you to "Parks and Recreation?"
"That was a fanfic, Tony."
"but it was so good. C'mon, work with me here."


Also, the only way the beatdown scene could have been better was if it was being done by Pepper and Natashia. I just really want a "The women n Tony's life have had enough" scene.
posted by happyroach at 12:12 PM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


I do like the idea that The Marvel Universe is fictional on Parks and Rec, while P&R is fictional in the MCU.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:17 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Everyone seemed pretty happy about Avengers, even if everyone seems pretty meh on Ultron.

Avengers was 6 mains and one big bad, which is right on the edge of what's manageable*. A2 was two big bads and added another handful of heroes, and perhaps worst, had a bunch of studio back-seat drivers. It was a very predictable hot mess. I doubt even Soderbergh or Tarantino could have held it together.

*for Whedon, based on his past TV outings.
posted by bonehead at 12:23 PM on November 25, 2015


No way does Tony watch TV.

(Unless maybe it's on in the corner of the lab while he's inventing a room-temperature superconductor, and even though he's apparently paying no attention, it turns out he noticed some subtle foreshadowing that completely slipped by you, and he correctly predicted the plot twist that you didn't see coming.)
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:24 PM on November 25, 2015


For those who want to see Tony as a tech-bro, there was the brief (9-issue) run of Superior Iron Man cut short by Secret Wars. In which: he moves to San Francisco and sells Extremis (bio-enhancing nanotechnology) through an app.
posted by queeroid at 12:24 PM on November 25, 2015


12 year old daughter texting me at 9:30 this morning (no school today):

"There is no emoji to say how happy I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Haven't checked, but knowing her she's watched it 10+ times already.
posted by Frayed Knot at 12:25 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but that was the whole SIXIS nonsense and amounts to a separate personality taking over Tony's body. The MCU has him in a place where he could turn into a San Francisco startup asshole without breaking character, which would be something to see.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:27 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can absolutely see movie Tony being on board with this if he's running it, and with Fury out I bet Tony wants to be his replacement. He was head of SHIELD for a while in the comics and he always thinks it's okay for him to play around with things he wouldn't trust others with.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:35 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Age of Ultron was an exercise in having the smartest minds in the revised universe (absent Reed Richards) act in incredibly stupid ways. So this is no surprise.

But, I'm impressed. Without X-Angst and the perpetual bleeding plot wound that Days of Future Past became(*), there's no Reed Richards going stupid over Isaac Asimov. Without Reed Richards going stupid, the next movie can focus on what the Marvel Cinematic Universe is really about...

the OT3 of Steve/Bucky/Sam.

(*) The fact that everyone and their brother in comics needs to stick a finger in that festering sore that just won't heal brings up images of Marvel Comics as Henry VIII.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:54 PM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


is it time to watch it again

IT'S TIME TO WATCH IT AGAIN (warning: celine dion)
posted by The Whelk at 1:36 PM on November 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


It is the dearest wish of my heart that that vid get enough MCU footage to be remade as a live action vid. Alas, I don't think it will happen, so I'll just have to settle for "IT'S ALLLLLL COOOOOMMMIIING BAAACK TO ME NOOOOOWWW" playing in my head as Bucky shares the cherished tender memories he has regained with Steve.
posted by yasaman at 2:03 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Age of Ultron was an exercise in having the smartest minds in the revised universe (absent Reed Richards) act in incredibly stupid ways.

I've been rereading a bunch of old Marvel series and talking about them with a friend of mine who is a comics database, and I'm coming around to his thesis that every so-called intellectual in the Marvel universe is a massive, massive fuck-up. Xavier causes roughly 98% of the problems the X-Men face, and when he's not starting them, he's getting in their way and making their lives difficult. Reed Richards is a sociopath, and then we find out that this fascist is canonically the best of all possible Reeds in the multiverse. Every single one of Tony Stark's ideas is bad, is obviously bad, everyone tells him they're bad, he does them anyway and the world becomes demonstrably worse. Bruce Banner, that's probably all I need to say about him. They should hang a sign on any supergenius hero which says "It has been X days since my last self-inflicted catastrophe". They wouldn't need a tens column.
posted by Errant at 2:04 PM on November 25, 2015 [18 favorites]


Okay, maybe my complaint about spy agencies is unfounded. It really is the fault of management for our heroes' troubles, and making one's superiors the antagonist is true to (comic book) life.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:06 PM on November 25, 2015


Does anyone else have a vague uneasy sense that Tony Stark in the Iron Man movies is really a different guy than Tony in every other MCU movie?

And I thought "So was I" comes from the same place as other phrases like "This is gonna hurt me more than it does you". Tony being a friend to Steve only in the way that Pierce appeared to be a "friend" to Steve until the third act of Winter Soldier.
posted by casarkos at 2:17 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


Apocryphon,
It also seems that you missed the main conceit of the bad guys being part of an organization called Hydra. You know, mythical monster with many heads that grows 2 new heads every time you cut one off? That's kind of a writers lazy paradise, honestly, because not only do you have an unlimited number of baddies to go after, you create new ones each time you 'win'. Even in the original Hercules myth, the only way to prevent the new heads from springing up was to cauterize the wound before it could grow. We have yet to see the writers really do much with this (though I hear they are starting to do this somewhat with the 3rd season of Agents of SHIELD, though I have my doubts). Also, one of the heads of the Hydra is immortal, so the only way to defeat it is to cut it off, and then bury it by the side of some random road, and cover it with a huge rock (to later be unearthed and unleashed upon the world again).

The message underlying this narrative, though, is the more interesting one. There is no final victory. You must be ever vigilant against this enemy, as it will always exist, and will always return, and will always seek to defeat you through hiding behind immoral authority.

That's one of the things I really like about the MCU Captain America. Many of the themes are utterly mythic in proportion to our reality. It really is our new pantheon, the heroes of comic books. After the fall of our civilization, what records remain of our entertainment will be described by the archaeologists and anthropologists of some distant future society will talk about how we were just like the Greeks and the Romans, and how we worshiped these mythic demi-gods, and how our pantheistic society was just borrowing from the Roman and Greek myths (our Mt. Olympus was called Asgard, though, for some strange reason).
posted by daq at 2:21 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bridge of Spies was interesting since the whole premise involved three governments not-negotiating over the custody of non-persons superficially under the cover of a court-appointed lawyer meeting his client's family through unacknowledged communications.

Of course those non-persons became dubious heroes once repatriated, both lauded as diplomatic and intelligence successes and somewhat marginalized professionally.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:29 PM on November 25, 2015


okay but why didn't they just name this "Captain America: Steve Loves Bucky" I mean come on
posted by angeline at 3:05 PM on November 25, 2015 [12 favorites]


There's a lot of fodder to be here about how the current post-9/11, post-Iraq, consensus reflects that there are no good villains to fight anymore. Instead of evil empires, we have non-state actors, insidious sleeper cells, and the spread of international terrorism yada yada. This is nothing new, Rainbow Six was published in 1998, and that decade already had no shortage of villains being local "ultra-nationalist" and separatist terrorists, including Islamists, at times. Sleeper Cell came out almost exactly a decade ago. This narrative has gone on for a long time, and even as the failed states and terrorist groups change, the anxieties and villains stay the same.

(SPECTRE failed for me because it seemed that despite being yet another gritty personal film to dive into the tortured spyche of Daniel Craig James Bond, the broader conflicts- the Double-O program vs. modernity, the inevitable surveillance state against terrorism- felt characteristically impersonal, mirroring our muddled times. It felt like a movie about systems and institutions. And I agree with all of the critiques that it shows how much of a dinosaur that the world of 007- a world of clear heroes and obvious supervillains, a world of competent intelligence agencies- has become.)

So yes, HYDRA does well to fit the zeitgeist. And having this deathless enemy that is not an institution but infests them- yes, that works well too. Certainly, having the Captain America arc be about that makes better sense than the meaninglessness that SPECTRE sent us. But I still think it's a bit much to have Cap be disavowed one movie ago, and have it happen again this time. Plus, it's unknown if HYDRA is even related to the plot- it could simply be Stark and SHIELD falling for the hubris of the watchmen, and all that.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:11 PM on November 25, 2015


I just want to see superheroes be heroic, against a clear enemy, you know? You know what would be a challenge? Have a comic book superhero movie be against a natural disaster. Like a giant storm that threatens to wipe out an entire seaboard. And just have the heroes using powers to be doing crazy humanitarian efforts in the face of natural calamity. The will of sentient beings against cold, uncaring nature. A clear and obvious danger to mankind. And animals, too- imagine Beast Boy or whomever rescuing a zoo. Of course, you can shoehorn in a climate change message there somewhere, or have the storm be intentionally created by some craven bunch of neoliberal schemers, but even then you don't have to have the "moral ambiguity for the sake of moral ambiguity" nature that all these films seem to have these days.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:14 PM on November 25, 2015




I commented on my regular blog, the opening of Civil War has Reed Richards obsessing over the mathematically determined apocalypse of superheros instead of the dismal math of climate change.

But on another note, I'm loving Jessica Jones so far (although I find it hard to watch with my own buttons) for 1) being the first Marvel cinema to take its premise seriously and 2) giving us an unambiguous evil.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:44 PM on November 25, 2015


I'm making fondue tonight because of this trailer oh god it's happening again
posted by The Whelk at 4:57 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


"You know what trope I'm really sick of? Spy films where the operative is continuously getting disavowed/denied/burned/fired/gone rogue/off the reservation."

And then they get hired back like nothing ever happened!
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:29 PM on November 25, 2015


all the mission impossible team does is get compromised they are objectively terrible at thier job
posted by The Whelk at 5:39 PM on November 25, 2015 [8 favorites]




I can absolutely see movie Tony being on board with this if he's running it, and with Fury out I bet Tony wants to be his replacement. He was head of SHIELD for a while in the comics and he always thinks it's okay for him to play around with things he wouldn't trust others with.

My feeling about registration is questionable at best, especially in a moment where databases about things you can't control, and the x-gene/inhuman gene/whatever we're calling it it is pretty parallel to Muslim databases ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED IN POLITICS. But my feeling about Tony doing registration is like my feeling about GWB invading Iraq: even if this were an okay policy, your involvement with it/leadership of it would doom it to being terrible. Tony always learns that technology does not solve the problem, that what solves the problem is heroes being heroic, and he never learns this lesson. Not in three Iron Man movies nor in two Avengers movies. As someone says upthread, for a smart dude, he sure causes a lot of his own problems.
posted by immlass at 7:26 PM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


My problem with Days of Future Past/Registration dystopia is that at some point it stopped being a future and became the future. So in Runaways, The Pride couldn't just be super-mobsters they had to be super-prophetic-mobsters who cut a deal in preparation for horrific events. The kids are either fucking the plan up, or are pawns of some n-dimensional chessmaster.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:05 PM on November 25, 2015


Most of the better writers dealt with the issue by ignoring it as much as Marvel editorial would let them between events.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:07 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can think of no writer or director who has ever pulled off one of these monster cast productions

I think with Avengers 1, Whedon came about as close as is probably humanly possible. Mind you, we're talking about a writer/director with literally decades of experience in handling super/hero ensemble casts with intriguingly conflicting/complementary personalities.

It really is a shame it's not at all budgetarily feasible (budgetarily is a word) to do Avengers as a premium TV show, because that really is the room to breathe that it needs.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:47 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


Does anyone else have a vague uneasy sense that Tony Stark in the Iron Man movies is really a different guy than Tony in every other MCU movie?

The Ironman trilogy (ok 1 and 3, because 2 never happened) is how Tony sees himself. Tony in Avengers is how other people see him.
posted by bonehead at 8:57 PM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]


Iron Man 2 is admittedly weak, but I wouldn't actively dislike it except that it absolutely squanders Sam Rockwell in the MCU. Such a waste of a guy who was practically made to be in comic book movies.
posted by Errant at 10:25 PM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


the only way the beatdown scene could have been better was if it was being done by Pepper and Natashia.

I was disappointed when Tony "cured" Pepper of the Extremis virus at the end of Iron Man 3. I liked the idea of Pepper being as strong as Tony in his armor.
posted by homunculus at 10:31 PM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]


But I remember when that first list of "Phase 2" movies came out and it had Captain America: Serpent Society on the list instead of Civil War.

Apparently the new Cap is fighting Donald Trump supporters the Sons of the Serpent in the comic book: Captain America Taking a Political Stance Is Long Overdue
posted by homunculus at 11:30 PM on November 25, 2015


Like most people: BLACK PANTHER!!!!

Also, the posters are amazing:
http://io9.com/has-the-villain-of-the-aquaman-movie-been-revealed-1744750984

The synopsis: also amazing.
Wanda flying? Notsomuch.
posted by Mezentian at 6:17 AM on November 26, 2015


all the mission impossible team does is get compromised they are objectively terrible at their job

The Secretary and I disavow any knowledge of what you're talking about, but we would like to mention that Jim Phelps and his IMF team are objectively fucking fantastic at their jobs.

Wait. Ethan who, now?
posted by The Bellman at 8:15 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


@Apocryphon: The One Punch Man anime recently had an episode about trying to stop a meteor. Had some kickass animation and might be worth a watch if you're willing to give it a try!
posted by brecc at 9:21 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


This movie is going to break my heart as no movie has broken it. I'm excited and completely terrified.

In related news, the trailer syncs up perfectly with Adele's "Hello" in order to drown out the SOUND OF MY GROSS SOBBING.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:31 AM on November 26, 2015 [7 favorites]


The Secretary and I disavow any knowledge of what you're talking about, but we would like to mention that Jim Phelps and his IMF team are objectively fucking fantastic at their jobs.

The Secretary continues to disavow his brother Fred, though.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:47 PM on November 26, 2015


So my knowledge of the fake politics here is entirely what's in the trailer but: I have a hard time seeing the anti side here. From what people are saying, it sounds like it's not just registration of powered individuals working as vigilantes and bringing them into the fold of democratically accountable law enforcement (reasonable, needed, and largely what the trailer seems to suggest), but rather tracking in a creepy NSA database everyone with any kind of powers regardless of their actions. Is that about the size of it?

Because I have a hard time understanding why Captain America, who served in the army, is the face of fighting lawful authority over the use of violence.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:05 AM on November 27, 2015


vibratory manner of working: yes, in the comics it is exactly tracking and controlling people based on their hypothetical potential - not entirely dissimilar to the Insight Project in Cap 2, and the murder about to be done in the name of potential problems.

Cap 2 does a very good job of illustrating why Steve would have issues with anything that sets controls and limitations on human beings based on what someone else thinks they might get around to doing someday.
posted by taterpie at 12:19 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


it sounds like it's not just registration of powered individuals working as vigilantes and bringing them into the fold of democratically accountable law enforcement (reasonable, needed, and largely what the trailer seems to suggest), but rather tracking in a creepy NSA database everyone with any kind of powers regardless of their actions.

But this also touches on Bucky and bringing him in, with Tony on the one side being furious about Bucky having killed his parents while under HYDRA control, and Cap on the other quite reasonably not wanting Bucky to be executed for being brainwashed by HYDRA even if he did terrible things while he wasn't himself. And it doesn't look like they're trying to bring Bucky in alive, either.

Also we haven't seen the actual nominal villain of the piece either. Iron Man is clearly an antagonist, but don't we have a Strucker or something coming down the pipe?
posted by immlass at 10:08 AM on November 27, 2015


Aha, looked it up and it's Zemo. So we haven't seen Zemo yet.
posted by immlass at 10:17 AM on November 27, 2015


So my knowledge of the fake politics here is entirely what's in the trailer but: I have a hard time seeing the anti side here. From what people are saying, it sounds like it's not just registration of powered individuals working as vigilantes and bringing them into the fold of democratically accountable law enforcement (reasonable, needed, and largely what the trailer seems to suggest), but rather tracking in a creepy NSA database everyone with any kind of powers regardless of their actions. Is that about the size of it?

The sales pitch is: powered people should make themselves accountable to some authority other than themselves, that's the difference between heroes and villains. Not totally unreasonable. The application of that theory is: and that authority is me, Tony Stark, and if you disagree that I should be the supreme executive over unlimited power, I'm going to stuff you inside an infinity prison in the antimatter dimension without trial or appeal, which exists because Reed Richards is a fucking monster who builds this kind of shit for fun. That's if I don't just murder you with this fully operational and homicidal android Thor clone, because that's what the world needed, thanks Reed you psychopath.

The anti-registration thesis is: I don't wanna you can't make me you're not my real dad. It's a thoroughly unsympathetic argument, except that the pro-reg side are such consummate assholes and pantomime villains, you end up saying, "you have a point, Tony Stark shouldn't be anyone's dad, he's awful at it".
posted by Errant at 1:29 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


Because I have a hard time understanding why Captain America, who served in the army, is the face of fighting lawful authority over the use of violence.

Cap has always been a bit of an idealist when it comes to what America should be, including an extended series where he just said "fuck it" and went off on a motorcycle to find "real America." But in the original Civil War, the act included mandatory registration, involuntary militarization, and extra-judicial detention in a Richards/Stark extra-dimensional prison, and Cap saw that as anti-American.

Or what Errant said.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:32 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


Another thought. Cap's idealized, utopian, America includes the thesis of the Declaration of Independence. The government exists to secure the rights of its citizens, and if it doesn't, the government needs to be changed or removed. So for him to go all Jefferson/Franklin and say, "I can't support this law" is reasonably in character.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:13 PM on November 27, 2015


The anti-registration thesis is: I don't wanna you can't make me you're not my real dad. It's a thoroughly unsympathetic argument

More charitably, it's a right to privacy argument.

Vigilantes arguably shouldn't have the right to anonymously beat people up on a whim. Registration would fix that, effectively deputizing heroes as part of law enforcement, and would make them (theoretically) publicly accountable for their actions. That's the reasonable, no-one-can-argue-with-sense part (also, see the Watchmen for how that plays out).

But being an asshole control freak, the Stark argument went further, of course. Supes aren't allowed to even exist without registration. No retirement, no quiet enjoyment, no right to privacy even if you didn't wear dayglo underwear and assault the mentally ill. Essentially just being Jessica Jones (or MCU Luke Cage) would be illegal.

The implication being that it's a small step from required registration to regulation then extermination. Just look at what Trask was doing to the X-men. Oh wait, they can't, that's a copyright violation.
posted by bonehead at 2:33 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, registration means trusting a government agency with your real name and address, in the universe where (a) in the comics, the President of the United States once had to get punched the hell out by Captain America, or (b) in the movies, the premiere agency dealing with super-persons was infested with Science Nazis for sixty-odd years before anybody noticed.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:19 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


The anti-registration thesis is: I don't wanna you can't make me you're not my real dad. It's a thoroughly unsympathetic argument

More charitably, it's a right to privacy argument.


I may have exaggerated slightly for hyperbolic effect. Just a little teensy bit.

I'm calling their initial argument "unsympathetic", not necessarily "invalid", and both in the universe and in the audience, it's hard to have sympathy for the idea that you should instead trust every individual powered individual to keep themselves in check. That isn't really Cap's specific argument, of course, but the SRA contains such potential for abuse that he has to say no to the whole thing even though he's pretty into the whole accountability idea, whether or not he has an alternate solution, and he doesn't. The problem with Cap is that he can only lead the Avengers, not the Preventers, and vengeance doesn't make the pain go away. The problem with Tony Stark is that he wants to be a Preventer instead, but the only way to do that is to lock down everyone and everything.
posted by Errant at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


The thing is, Stark is absolutely right, if you apply any con nonsense whatsoever. But this is a superhero universe so common sense is pretty much moot. What's more, stark is arguing for a set of rules that go against the grain of a super heroic universe and so it's an attempt to break the way the world works, which puts him in the wrong, at least as far as readers go, as superhero nonsense is fun and we don't want to see it end even if it is nonsense.
posted by Artw at 6:38 PM on November 27, 2015


Stark is not right. He is arguing for a loss of rights for a set of individuals based on hypotheticals instead of actions. That's not nonsense, that's profiling and worse.
posted by taterpie at 11:33 PM on November 27, 2015


I'm calling their initial argument "unsympathetic", not necessarily "invalid", and both in the universe and in the audience, it's hard to have sympathy for the idea that you should instead trust every individual powered individual to keep themselves in check.

One word: Sentinels.

Would you seriously trust the government that created GIANT GENOCIDAL KILLBOTS with your secret identity? Would you seriously, seriously trust them not to say "Oh hey, we've decided instead of exterminating mutants, we're going to kill inhumans instead. Or aliens. Or magic-users. Or anyone who has powers for any reason, because we're irrationally threatened by them this week."

Or OK, maybe the government as a whole doesn't decide to genocide your particular brand of hero. maaaaaybe some small conspiracy inside the government decides to twist the program to exterminate you. You know, like what's happened a couple dozen times before. Gee, maybe a shapechanger infiltrates the highly secure government program and steals the data needed to kill you. Yeah, like that's ever going to happen. Again.

See, the really fucked up thing about Civil War (besides the really bad writing)? It's the fact that everything, from antimatter secure facilities where people are dumped without trial, to hiring supervillians to kill heroes who don't go along with the plan, is just really not that far off what the government has already done in regular comics.

If you treat the Marvel Universe as rational, then registration seems like a good idea. If you treat it like the real-world US government, it has major security problems, but maybe justifiable. BUT if you treat it like the actual Sentinel-building Marvel universe, then the rational response to a registration proposal is "I am going so far underground the moloids are going to be waving goodye to my ass."
posted by happyroach at 3:02 AM on November 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


I wish the MCU had U.S. Agent, just so we can see someone in a Captain America black palette swap fighting the real Cap.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:38 AM on November 28, 2015


Would you seriously trust the government that created GIANT GENOCIDAL KILLBOTS with your secret identity?

No, I wouldn't, nor would I trust the maniac who decided that what the world really needed is Thor without the sense of restraint. You're pretty much making the point I made from the beginning: resistance to the idea that there should be any kind of accountability would seem pretty petulant and ignorant, until you see how draconian and fascist those measures become right away, no waiting, and then it's impossible to sympathize with the pro-reg side because they're such terrible monsters about it.
posted by Errant at 7:58 AM on November 28, 2015


In terms of the in-world morals, this is Cap's movie, so just like Cap is always going to win the "let's you and him fight" in his own book, I'm expecting that as the protagonist, his case will prove out to be right. Whether that's because Tony Stark is a jerk and/or idiot, because Science Nazis are everywhere, or something else entirely is the part we're speculating about.
posted by immlass at 9:13 AM on November 28, 2015


In all versions of the character, across all media, I always assume Tony Stark is one bad day away from being a self-justifying supervillian.
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 PM on November 28, 2015 [7 favorites]


I mean his origin was basically "I was super down with blood money until I tasted the barest fraction of a fraction of the pain I inflicted on countless others" so yeah it never really feels like Tony's shiny new conscience has stuck all that realistically. Tony's motivation feels like one step removed from "I saw Food, Inc and went vegetarian for a month"
posted by jason_steakums at 8:48 PM on November 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm trying to avoid watching the trailer ((until I absolutely cannot resist anymore)) so I haven't actually watched this but linking it anyway! Relevant to nicebookrack's interests and maybe yours too: Hello - The Civil War Bromance Version (Adele) from Anthony Meadows
posted by one teak forest at 2:15 AM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


one bad day away from being a self-justifying supervillian.

So, he's kind of like Michael Douglas in Falling Down (they even both built missiles!).
posted by FJT at 3:25 PM on December 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Tony Stark is the guy who builds hulkbuster armor with a cod piece. Is there really much more to say? (Other than the obvious slash implications.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:19 AM on December 6, 2015




After the travesty that was most of the X-Men movies (my babies!!) they damned well have a lot to make up for.

Speaking of which: X-Men: Apocalypse | Official HD Trailer #1 | 2016
posted by homunculus at 3:46 PM on December 12, 2015


I gave up on the X-Men movies after that Brett Ratner one (which wikipedia tells me was ten years ago).
posted by octothorpe at 7:29 AM on December 13, 2015


The younger/newer X-Men movies are worth it if you're into the romantic vibe between Fassbender & McAvoy (they play Magneto & Professor X as in love) and they're okay (sometimes downright offensive). I'm going to watch Civil War but I'm kind of running out of patience with Marvel, and despite being a DC girl I'm actively avoiding the current bout of grimdark DC films (I watch the TV shows instead). But they're mostly fun and ridiculous and they're not weighed down by 900000 crossovers or the need to stick to a multi-movie planned arc or massive amounts of 90s grimdark. I squeed way more at the X-Men trailer than the Civil War trailer because I'm more into Cherik than Stucky.
posted by immlass at 8:29 AM on December 13, 2015


Yah, you had every reason to walk away after Ratner managed to screw up the Phoenix Saga, among other things. First Class is fun and so is Days of Future Past. Better than X3 by leagues, but that's not very hard to accomplish.
posted by Atreides at 9:31 AM on December 13, 2015


Singer intended for Days of Future Past to fix the X-Men universe after the damage done by X3. I'm actually looking forward to watching Sophie Turner play young Jean Grey.
posted by homunculus at 9:36 AM on December 13, 2015


(they play Magneto & Professor X as in love)

They aren't? But, but, my slashfics!
posted by happyroach at 1:10 PM on December 13, 2015


They aren't? But, but, my slashfics!

All I'm saying the actors have been very open about their support for that interpretation.
posted by immlass at 7:00 PM on December 13, 2015


I thought the best things about First Class were the swank submarine and the lovely slash potential. Practically all of the secondary character writing left me rolling my eyes. Particularly the reduction of one of the best villains and LGBT characters of the Marvel label to the apex of multiple love triangles.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:52 AM on December 14, 2015


I thought the best things about First Class were the swank submarine

"On a Boat" (Azazel, Riptide, Shaw)
posted by homunculus at 9:51 AM on December 14, 2015


Civil War has been on my wait-for-video list since the spousal unit usually has little patience with the conceits of Marvel cinema. But the premise of it seems even more questionable now that registration acts are political trial balloons and dogwhistles for the current election.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:58 PM on December 14, 2015




Mark Ruffalo Explains Why There’s No Hulk Film: Marvel & Universal “Don’t Get Along”

I like Ruffalo's Banner/Hulk, but the only way I'd be really excited about a Hulk film is if it introduced She-Hulk and and made her the focus of the movie, sort of like Mad Max: Fury Road did with Furiosa.
posted by homunculus at 7:53 PM on December 23, 2015




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