From Indonesia, a Muslim Challenge to the Ideology of the Islamic State
November 26, 2015 11:23 PM   Subscribe

That powerful scene is one of many in a 90-minute film that amounts to a relentless, religious repudiation of the Islamic State and the opening salvo in a global campaign by the world’s largest Muslim group to challenge its ideology head-on. The challenge, perhaps surprisingly, comes from Indonesia, which has the world’s largest Muslim population but which lies thousands of miles away from the Islamic State’s base in the Middle East.
(SLNYT)
posted by destrius (31 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite
 
Good!

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam and the main source of financial support for Wahhabism worldwide, has had more success in imposing its interpretation and has even made inroads in Indonesia. Analysts say a steady flow of money from Persian Gulf countries, including Saudi Arabia and Qatar, supports an active and growing Wahhabist movement here.

It should also be noted that Saudi Arabia and IS are basically indistinguishable when it comes to ideology and draconic punishments. Thievery? Hand off. Robbery? Hand and foot off. Adultery? Stoning. Criticizing the powers that be? Head off. It's the same in SA and IS. The main difference seems to be that the Saudis are generally better clad and kempt and don't post every execution on Youtube. Oh, and the Saudis are our friends, whereas IS is not.
posted by sour cream at 11:43 PM on November 26, 2015 [14 favorites]


This is a really interesting contrast to Malaysian Muslims. They share a common background and language with the Indonesians, but since their colonial separation seem to be heading down very different paths. The impression that I get here is a striving to be seen as real Muslims that is expressed as a desire to admire and emulate the Arabs. Indonesians are seen as soft, too liberal, not authentic in their interpretation of Islam.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:44 PM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is, finally, the correct approach to deal with groups like ISIS. Good work Indonesia.
posted by iffthen at 11:48 PM on November 26, 2015 [7 favorites]




Can the Indonesians declare a rival caliphate, in a bid to propel the umma towards modernization?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:41 AM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't think the President of Indonesia or any of the other elected officials would be too keen on relinquishing their power.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:02 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well played, Indo, well played.
posted by mannequito at 1:05 AM on November 27, 2015


And yet Islamophobes will continue to ask rhetorically why Muslims don't condemn the violence of Daesh and other terrorist groups.
posted by graymouser at 1:09 AM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


Meatbomb: the Arabization of Islam in Malaysia has been a thing for the last...15 years or so. I grew up around the cusp, it was definitely "religious racism" of a sort - only the Malays know how to do Islam (more and more looking to the Arab world for inspiration, mostly because they have money) and everyone else, especially those "dirty Banglas" (like my family) is "doing Islam wrong".

I tried to find Malaysia's perspective on Islam Nusantara and found this essay from a lecturer in an Islamic college in Jakarta (not Malaysia) that gives interesting background info on the philosophical underpinnings being Islam Nusantara. It seems though that this term is also being used to describe the Islam popular amongst Malays in Malaysia, which is strange because they don't seem to get along.
posted by divabat at 2:30 AM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]


I find myself regularly wondering if in the 80s instead of building the 600 ship navy and Star Wars, we had dumped those billions into battery and alternative energy research to combat the dual emerging threats of radical Islam and climate change. At this point, oil would be a cheap and useful feedstock for making polymers, but there wouldn't be any need for burning the stuff. The Mideast would still be problematic, but the global reach of Wahhabism would be greatly diminished. Global warming would be a thing to be aware of, but with gigatons of carbon in the ground, the impending destruction of coastal infrastructure would not be coming. Someone should make a series based on this premise. It would be like The Man in the High Tower but...nicer.
posted by rockindata at 5:12 AM on November 27, 2015 [15 favorites]


While, of course, seeing any reasonable response to extremism is great (and also not a requirement from anyone -- no one has to defend their beliefs from extremism in the name of that belief) I think I need to dig deeper into this.

One thought was, wasn't Indonesia the location for violent extremism in the past? The sort of extremism that caused the government to just as violently retaliate? My understanding is that outlying areas away from Jakarta might be using Islamic extremism as a way to counter government oppression. Especially some of the regions not happy in the least being part of Indonesia.

Unpacking Islam and Indonesia is not simple, and once you dig down a little there are a lot of players.

The second I'm less sure of, but this sounds a bit like a reasonable and common Sunni response, and I recall that IS (or whatever we call them) is already counter to Sunni anyway, so it's not like they care. Not that this is all that important as a public statement. But other Sunni groups have made similar statements, recently.

As a public statement and repudiation of extremism, it hits the mark perfectly, though.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:12 AM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


It seems though that this term is also being used to describe the Islam popular amongst Malays in Malaysia

Well sure, because Nusantara simply is the term to describe the Malay(-peoples/language) Archipelago. (as opposed to Indochina mainland or the native Filipino islands as well as other parts of the Polynesia)

At present I am feeling like it's too complicated to even start talking about Malaysia and its Islam, but if anyone has specific questions about Islam in the region and/or Indonesia and the other parts of the Nusantara ie the Malay archipelago (namely Malaysia, Brunei, Muslim Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines), I can try to at least point at the generally right direction. I will say that it isn't just colonisation that led to the branching out of modern Islamicity - the fact of the matter is in the Nusantara, historically the centre of culture and education IS what is now modern Indonesia. This is a fact many of their intellectuals take great pride in. The other large difference is that unlike Malaysia, religion and ethnicity is not so easily intertwined. An Indonesian who can count their ethnic heritage as from the Nusantara can be any religion than just Islam. The same cannot be said for (Peninsula) Malaysia, where the colonisation introduced even more migration in numbers that shifted the demographics markedly and in ways that became politically convenient and has remained so since.

In any case, NU has its work cut out for them in trying to steer the conversation even back in Indonesia, esp now that they're no longer the ruling party (but I speak simplistically; they're still a force to reckon with, just not as government). The Muslim strain of religious extremism is on the rise, much to the dismay of many in Indonesia, from the syariah legislation in Acheh (where hudud law, as we understand the term to mean these days, ie religious capital punishment, is enforced), and the continuing persecution of minority Shiites like the Ahmadiyyah, not to mention terror attacks, like the Bali bombings.

But as a Malaysian, I really do continue to be hopeful for our big sister because there is great promise there.
posted by cendawanita at 6:38 AM on November 27, 2015 [16 favorites]


seeing any reasonable response to extremism is great (and also not a requirement from anyone -- no one has to defend their beliefs from extremism in the name of that belief)

An attitude that will enable Christian extremism — which already has a toehold in several US States — to take over America. Moderate Christians must denounce the extremists or they will be responsible for their religion spiraling out of control.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:42 AM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


(i need to clarify my point about the Philippines not being part of the Nusantara -- certainly I don't find any evidence of it identifying with that now, but back in those independence-heavy years, there was definitely a movement of some kind to associate the Philippines with that as well, and it was reciprocated by the rest to a degree)
posted by cendawanita at 6:43 AM on November 27, 2015


@five fresh fish, I said "has to" not "should if they feel they ought to"

It is not my responsibility to counter random Christian nonsense, but I can if something bothers me, I suppose. I don't identify with any belief system, so that's easy I guess.

But I'm not going to demand that so called moderates defend their beliefs every time an unhinged random or anti government end of times group does something horrible. And that stands regardless of religious affiliation.

There's a great quote by a Muslim fellow on Twitter where he asks (paraphrasing): "how can I get isis to stop being jerks when I can't even get a girl I like to return my texts?"

People need to live their lives and choose their battles.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:50 AM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


Something about it only taking good men doing nothing, clvrmnky. Christians can deny responsibility all they want, but when your country becomes a Margaret Atwood novel it is going to be their fault for not shutting down the extremists. The religion is what the community makes it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:00 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Just like it's the fault of all those who didn't speak up when kiddies were being fiddled, enabling pedo Priests to diddle a hundred more. Silence is acquiescence. If you do not report that the Priest raped your child, you are very much responsible for the next rape.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:06 AM on November 27, 2015


@five fresh fish, while I understand your ardour, I think it has led to some fuzzy thinking.

By outsiders (that would be people like me, a non religious person or differently religious person) demanding that some identified group account for something done in their name I am effectively telling them it is their belief that is at fault.

I am reducing a history and culture down to "your thing is broken, and regardless of any other factors, I am saying you need to fix it." This is a tactic used by weak intellectuals in the West to cleverly denounce Islam by coyly suggesting it is broken, because otherwise...

This notion is simply intellectually bankrupt, and ignores how complicated things are.

Note that I'm never saying "don't critique isis, especially if you are best qualified to.do so". I'm saying I reject the demand that every Christian or Muslim defend themselves and their beliefs every time someone does anything in the name of their church.
posted by clvrmnky at 7:11 AM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


cendawanita: I actually know embarrassingly little about the history and nature of Islam in our region, which is one of the reasons why I made this post. I did a little bit of reading up on NU, and it seems that while it isn't extremist, it isn't exactly progressive either. How would you characterize them? While I think what they're doing is necessary and laudable, I'm pretty sure there are political reasons behind it too; this could be a way via which they gain a bit more prominence globally.
posted by destrius at 8:12 AM on November 27, 2015


Huh, in this polarized and acrimonious debate, I agree with both sides! Wouldn't you know. I guess that's what happens when you're a.... religions moderate.

fff has a point. Religious moderates have both an interest in countering extremist religion, and a special responsibility to do so. Atheists, or people from other religions, can't credibly argue against religious extremists; only the moderates within that community can do so. Nor can religious 'outsiders' steer the vulnerable away from radicalisation. Those people who 'get religion' need a healthy outlet for that impulse, which only religious moderates can supply.

The pedophilia example was... poorly chosen and inexact. But I get the point: if you have a chance to stop something, and you don't, then do you share some of the blame?

Having said that, it's wrong to ascribe culpability to religious moderates who don't spend all their days doing this. Because where does it end? Am I responsible when some crazy person from my religion does something evil? After all, I had breakfast this morning when I could have been out on the streets ministering to wayward! Last night I watched TV instead of writing persuasive denunciations of extremism! If I have unlimited liability, then I have no life.

And ultimately, while religious moderates can help, we can't actually directly affect things. We have compassion and tolerance and good will. We don't have mind control machines or an army. That's kind of the point of being a religious moderate.

Moreover, religious moderates are ultimately not responsible for the activities of religious extremists, in the same way that people who look good in autumn tones are not responsible for the ravages of the brown shirts. Repeatedly demanding that religious moderates denounce their extremist co-religionists can, if persisted upon, move from being a request for help ('you have a part to play!') to being flat-out insulting ('you incubated them!'). After about five minutes after 9/11, the vast majority of appeals to "Muslims must denounce extremism" have been veiled insults rather than genuine appeals for aid. That context tends to make this otherwise respectable argument look nasty.

I think we need to reframe this a little: being a religious moderate doesn't make you responsible for religious extremists or their actions. Being a religious moderate does, however, give you a superpower that can be used in the service of humanity. We need to rally religious moderates to the banner of preventing radicalisation and countering extremism. In order to do that, we need to give them more power to help by respecting them, celebrating them, and where necessary providing them support while they do their laudable work. But we should also remember that they (we) can only do so much. Moderates can act as a break on extremists, they cannot be a complete preventative. And when extremists soil their good name, we should understand that they are also indirect victims, and we should back them up by letting them know that we care about them and understand they're doing their best.
posted by Dreadnought at 8:34 AM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]


destrius: i would characterise them as a long-standing grassroots political organisation, similar to other established political parties in the region where there is no distinction between party machinery and doing community development work. I am also not too well-versed on the political struggle that is going on, but I wouldn't be too preoccupied in factoring in the assumed need for global attention -- this is a local struggle writ large. NU represents the strain of Islam traditionally associated with Indonesian Islamicity - expansive and conservative at the same time. They are very much dyed-in-the-wool self-identified Sunnis, but it's also an Islam that allowed for the existence of local saints (eg the Wali Songo), mystics, and (what would be considered from a Western paradigm) genderqueer identities - we're talking about a region where third or fourth gender identities used to be perfectly common. I am part-Bugis, and the Bugis would categorise people into five genders, basically. I think the common mistake whenever we're talking about anything outside of the West, is to apply Western standards and then call the thing either progressive or not, when it's most likely besides the point.

But going back to the local struggle I mentioned -- the pesantren (religious school) system that Indonesia is known for, and through which NU would definitely be a part and parcel of, (and which i forgot to mention specifically earlier when I said Indonesia is the cultural and educational centre for Nusantara Islam) hasn't escaped the strains of Wahhabist radicalisation. It's the same problem faced by the Muslim world at large, but this time we are talking about a country, much like Egypt or Jordan or Iraq, and parts of India, has historically been known to be one of the centres of Islamic thinking.
posted by cendawanita at 8:41 AM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]


If you would like a less extreme example of how not speaking up enables evil to win, the Republican party provides an example.

Or how about cops? If good cops had been speaking out, there wouldn't be the problem we have now.

MeFi changed because MeFites took responsibility for their community.

It is undeniable: the people who have the most power to influence community change are people who belong to the community. It is very much the responsibility of those in the community to fix their community. Silence is complicity.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:32 AM on November 27, 2015


Youtube link to the film trailer, if you're lazy.
posted by thandal at 12:43 PM on November 27, 2015


cendawanita: Thanks for providing some insight into this. I struggled with finding the right word before I settled on "progressive", and yes you're right that viewing such matters from a Western lens might not be very helpful.

Countering IS within this part of the world by downplaying the primacy of the Arab states as the centre of Islam seems like quite a clever move, in a sense. In some ways it is a bit similar to say how the centres of Catholicsm/Christianity had split up and shifted over the centuries, with the Great Schism, the Reformation, etc.
posted by destrius at 7:20 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd be more sympathetic to the "Religious moderates need to call out their extremists" argument if white men would do nearly as much whenever there's a shooting rather than go on about lone wolves.
posted by divabat at 7:37 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


Cool, a mefi thread about my country.

What's interesting is that the new Indonesian young scholars of Islam -- not the ones who hold much power in politics but those who learned Arabic and go to foreign countries majoring in Islamic studies (Fiqh, Hadits and myriad other serious Islamic fields of study) -- usually come from three distinct schools of thought. To simplify, there are the ones who go to (1) Saudi Arabia, (2) Egypt and (3) The Levant.

The ones who come to Saudi usually have a more.. harsh interpretation of Islamic thoughts, while those studying to the Levant hold a much more historically connected perspective. By which I mean that Iraq, Iran, Syria (before the war), Jordan and Lebanon were the centers of learning in the past (especially at the time of the so-called Islamic golden age). As a consequence, the scholars hailing from there have a more complete view of the unvarnished Islamic history, teaching, scholarly conflicts, interpretations, etc etc. When I studied there, the academic lineage (teacher-student lineage) of some of the scholars there could be traced directly to the Prophet.

While the scholars studying in the Egypt are a pretty mixed lot.

Why do I tell this? It's because the Syrian civil war is an enormously huge loss to the international Islamic academe as a whole. How?

Because now there's no balancing Saudi Arabia. Syrian/Levantine Ulemas and some Egyptian ones are pretty much the ones producing scholars that have a much more -- to use a western term -- 'moderate' perspective to Islamic thoughts. And now that Syria, once called the land of 'Ilm (knowledge) has fallen into civil war, the tradition of knowledge is broken.

Mosques in Syria that functioned as cultural and academic centers are empty now, and people are fleeing everyday -- most of the international students that are studying Islamic majors there have also returned to their homeland.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia has a lot of money. They offer many great scholarships for students from all over the world to come to their universities, and they are famous for channeling a huge amount of funds to the developing world -- for what? Usually subsidizing Islamic scholar with a Saudian predisposition to do da'wah (translated crudely to 'proselytizing') in many remote areas in the developing world. Including in Indonesia.

*

Now, in the context of the video produced by the Nadhlatul Ulama, an old Islamic organization that have a.. let's say a more Sufistic roots than the others, I think it's an effort by the current leaders -- both the formal and cultural leaders -- of the organization to (1) Have a presence in the international community, (2) Start to cooperate deeply with international organizations with similar goals, in this case LibForAll since they have funding, (3) Undermine ISIS-like brand of Islam and to promote NU's own perspective; I could tell you more about NU's view of Islam but it would be really long, and (4) To prevent the ISISization of Islamic thoughts in Indonesia itself, especially in its youth communities.

*

To recap, we have the Levant Islamic school of thought's heavily reduced influence, the Saudi academe gaining notoriety and backed with a lot of funding, and they (also the Egyptian scholars) are currently fighting for influence especially in Musle=im-populated developing nations to gain mainstream acceptance of their own respective Islamic perspectives. This is simplifying it greatly but you get the point.

In the midst of that, NU's leaders probably saw that while ISIS-like perspective didn't really proliferate in Indonesia (due to its inter-religious roots), there are some pockets of extreme teachings that sometimes pop in and out in the villages. To counter that, they released this video.

I hope you enjoyed this overly-long explanation of the current Islamic world's cultural-academic situation!
posted by tirta-yana at 8:04 PM on November 27, 2015 [37 favorites]


My understanding is that outlying areas away from Jakarta might be using Islamic extremism as a way to counter government oppression. Especially some of the regions not happy in the least being part of Indonesia.

Yeah, it is. It's complicated to talk about what is often called 'extremism' in Indonesia because the extremists were often in the 'right' inasmuch as 'right' is defined as "fighting against a tyrannical, murderous government". It's certainly not simple enough to divide the factions/thoughts into simplistic terms such as 'moderate', 'extreme' or 'traditional'.
posted by tirta-yana at 8:11 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


To add something more, the muslim 'moderates' do push back against extremism. It's just that according to my experience, at least in Indonesia, most of the discussions regarding ISIS or the like are either (a) Not seen in the western media because hey, we discuss it ourselves in our own languages and don't really have a dedicated PR channels to the West, (b) Are focused on informal decentralized methods, agents and disseminations rather than public statements by official organizations which are ineffective anyway, and add the factor that most muslims in Indonesia pretty clearly think that ISIS is super-bullshit and most of the population here don't really have a direct stake in the Middle East.

Also they are currently being pretty concerned with their lives and topics pertaining to them such as our new President's economic plans, the ASEAN economic integration, our officials' corruption news, news about the nation's oil fields and mountains that are now being widely seen as having been unfairly pillaged by Freeport and other foreign companies -- topics like that.

Although I do agree that there must be something done to combat Saudi's influence in the Islamic world as a whole, though. It's just that they really have a lot of money being funneled here, so it's kind of hard.
posted by tirta-yana at 8:24 PM on November 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


Wikipedia link on Gender in Bugis Society; thanks tirta-yana!
posted by lalochezia at 9:05 PM on November 27, 2015


Thank you (terima kasih!) tinta-yana, that was really enlightening for me esp about NU's efforts to go global. I would love to see renewed impact on the other asean states like Brunei and Malaysia - but saudi petrodollars work hand in hand with ours, politically.
posted by cendawanita at 9:43 PM on November 27, 2015




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