Elmo Ruined Sesame Street
December 6, 2015 12:31 PM Subscribe
Although kids love Elmo for understandable reasons, adults almost all agree that Elmo ruined Sesame Street.
"Elmo was one small part of a large, repertory cast, which is how it should have remained. But at some point in the mid-’90s, Elmo began to hog more and more real estate on the show. [...] Rarely, if ever, is Elmo’s innocence challenged, or is he forced to think about someone’s happiness other than his own."
"Elmo was one small part of a large, repertory cast, which is how it should have remained. But at some point in the mid-’90s, Elmo began to hog more and more real estate on the show. [...] Rarely, if ever, is Elmo’s innocence challenged, or is he forced to think about someone’s happiness other than his own."
I labor under inevitability; eventually, just like death, taxes, and unrequited love, my son will be exposed to Elmo, especially if he watches the TV show. As a father, all I can hope for is that I’ve taught my son to know right from wrong.
You rock, Mr. Wong.
posted by jason's_planet at 12:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
You rock, Mr. Wong.
posted by jason's_planet at 12:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I hate Elmo about as much as I hate Caillou, which is a lot.
posted by palomar at 12:44 PM on December 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by palomar at 12:44 PM on December 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
I was 99% with this article, but then I got to " ... a weird mime named Mr. Noodle..."
No. Sorry. Pistols at dawn.
Mr. Noodle was played by the amazing Bill Irwin and the late, great Michael Jeter (and occasionally joined Kristen Chenowith as their sister, Ms. Noodle). If you hate all mime, then fine, hate on them. But there was some seriously awesome clowning happening in those segments, and worth taking a look - on mute if you can't handle Crash's Elmo voice.
posted by Mchelly at 12:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
No. Sorry. Pistols at dawn.
Mr. Noodle was played by the amazing Bill Irwin and the late, great Michael Jeter (and occasionally joined Kristen Chenowith as their sister, Ms. Noodle). If you hate all mime, then fine, hate on them. But there was some seriously awesome clowning happening in those segments, and worth taking a look - on mute if you can't handle Crash's Elmo voice.
posted by Mchelly at 12:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
Take a look at this early sketch, which pairs Kermit the Frog and Elmo to hilarious effect.
I could only watch half of that before turning it off. I was profoundly disappointed that Kermit did not foolslap the little fuck.
posted by jason's_planet at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I could only watch half of that before turning it off. I was profoundly disappointed that Kermit did not foolslap the little fuck.
posted by jason's_planet at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was profoundly disappointed that Kermit did not foolslap the little fuck.
Whatever you thought you were watching at that age, it was not Sesame Street.
posted by mhoye at 12:52 PM on December 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
Whatever you thought you were watching at that age, it was not Sesame Street.
posted by mhoye at 12:52 PM on December 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
I've heard part of this argument before - that elmo's main problem is that he is younger than Big Bird, who was the primary avator for the kids before Elmo.
Here's the thing, though: Is that cause or symptom. Once upon a time, we learned to read in Grade 1. So teaching kids to identify letters and the very basic of sounds up until more-or-less that age made sense. Now parents and the education system have gone off their rockers wanting kids to read younger and younger. If you imagine kids need to be able to read at 3 or 4, then it doesn't make sense to be teaching 6 year olds what the letter B looks like. The central avatar HAD TO get younger.
So, let's dump the idea that kids need to be able to read in kindergarten or before, so Sesame Street can stop sucking again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
Here's the thing, though: Is that cause or symptom. Once upon a time, we learned to read in Grade 1. So teaching kids to identify letters and the very basic of sounds up until more-or-less that age made sense. Now parents and the education system have gone off their rockers wanting kids to read younger and younger. If you imagine kids need to be able to read at 3 or 4, then it doesn't make sense to be teaching 6 year olds what the letter B looks like. The central avatar HAD TO get younger.
So, let's dump the idea that kids need to be able to read in kindergarten or before, so Sesame Street can stop sucking again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
I put Elmo in the same category as Godzuki, Scrappy Doo, the New Schmoo and (*shudder*) Bat-mite: creatures invented by marketing teams for the very young to identify with. The thing that makes Elmo somehow worse than all these others is the entire bloody CAST of Sesame Street was for the very young; they didn't NEED him. This leads me to believe he was simply made to create a new line of merchandizing.
Which, by definition, is pure evil.
posted by Mooski at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
Which, by definition, is pure evil.
posted by Mooski at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
It's true, though, that Sesame Street used to skew a whole lot older, and darker. Like this song about the subway.
posted by Mchelly at 1:02 PM on December 6, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 1:02 PM on December 6, 2015 [28 favorites]
I don't think it necessarily used to skew older, really. I think it merely spoke to little kids like they had a brain, and didn't treat them like one-dimensional consumers.
And, yeah, Elmo must go.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:07 PM on December 6, 2015 [44 favorites]
And, yeah, Elmo must go.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:07 PM on December 6, 2015 [44 favorites]
I miss the gruff, wild, strange Sesame Street from the old days. I'm not the only flyover-country kid who learned what a city is like from Sesame Street and its books. Elmo is to Big Bird as HFCS is to maple sugar.
I'm fascinated by the Caillou hate, too. That cartoon was after my time and I don't have kids, but parents all over the internet blame Caillou for introducing their kids to the concept of a tantrum.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:07 PM on December 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
I'm fascinated by the Caillou hate, too. That cartoon was after my time and I don't have kids, but parents all over the internet blame Caillou for introducing their kids to the concept of a tantrum.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:07 PM on December 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Ceterum autem censeo Elmus esse delendam.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:08 PM on December 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:08 PM on December 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
If only I had a penguin..., I think you're right about the cause, but I don't think it's something that I want to go away. Part of what got realized over time was that when I was a kid (in the 80s), white and middle-class kids arrived in kindergarten ready for reading. I was an early reader, but you didn't have to be an early reader, you just had to be ready. You'd been exposed to bits and pieces of stuff. Your parents were reading to you and with you from an early age. For low-income and minority kids whose parents weren't necessarily themselves very literate, that wasn't happening. The mission of Sesame Street was to reach the kids who didn't already have all the advantages. That's why it existed, that's why it's set in an urban area, that's why it has a diverse cast.
Unfortunately, now the affluent are pushing this so early that there's no earlier Sesame Street can adequately reach kids who need a leg up. But they don't suffer from the loss of educational public TV aimed at that age group; low-income kids do.
posted by Sequence at 1:10 PM on December 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
Unfortunately, now the affluent are pushing this so early that there's no earlier Sesame Street can adequately reach kids who need a leg up. But they don't suffer from the loss of educational public TV aimed at that age group; low-income kids do.
posted by Sequence at 1:10 PM on December 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
They'll never drop Elmo because he brings the little kids onboard. From infant to early toddler my kid really loved Elmo, to the extent that his name was one of her first words. She was bored of him well before she turned 3 though.
posted by w0mbat at 1:16 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by w0mbat at 1:16 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I wonder if Elmo is a proxy; that for people who didn't want to admit that they'd outgrown Sesame Street, Elmo was the first undeniable signal that this had happened.
posted by mhoye at 1:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mhoye at 1:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
parents all over the internet blame Caillou for introducing their kids to the concept of a tantrum.
The parents I know mostly hate Caillou because he's a whiny little asshole and they hate the sound of his voice. A few have mentioned that after exposure to Caillou, their kids start to mimic him when they throw tantrums, and that's the end of Caillou in their households. So I guess it's sort of like how the character Steve Urkel didn't introduce kids to the concept of being super annoying so much as give those kids already inclined to be annoying a model from which to work.
posted by palomar at 1:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
The parents I know mostly hate Caillou because he's a whiny little asshole and they hate the sound of his voice. A few have mentioned that after exposure to Caillou, their kids start to mimic him when they throw tantrums, and that's the end of Caillou in their households. So I guess it's sort of like how the character Steve Urkel didn't introduce kids to the concept of being super annoying so much as give those kids already inclined to be annoying a model from which to work.
posted by palomar at 1:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
I wonder if Elmo is a proxy; that for people who didn't want to admit that they'd outgrown Sesame Street, Elmo was the first undeniable signal that this had happened.
Yeah so I just remembered the time in high school when I tied a Tickle Me Elmo doll to the front of my car and then destroyed it when I crashed into someone else's car. It was an accident, but... I don't know, I bet the right psychoanalyst would have a field day taking that one apart.
posted by palomar at 1:23 PM on December 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah so I just remembered the time in high school when I tied a Tickle Me Elmo doll to the front of my car and then destroyed it when I crashed into someone else's car. It was an accident, but... I don't know, I bet the right psychoanalyst would have a field day taking that one apart.
posted by palomar at 1:23 PM on December 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
The last episode I recall watching, racists called Mr Hooper's store. I can't imagine Elmo dealing with that one.
posted by Catblack at 1:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 1:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
"Elmo was one small part of a large, repertory cast, which is how it should have remained. But at some point in the mid-’90s, Elmo began to hog more and more real estate on the show. [...] Rarely, if ever, is Elmo’s innocence challenged, or is he forced to think about someone’s happiness other than his own."
This just makes me imagine a Sesame Street mafia situation where the other muppets are furious at Elmo for bringing federal heat down on the whole organization with his extravagant and selfish habits
posted by clockzero at 1:31 PM on December 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
This just makes me imagine a Sesame Street mafia situation where the other muppets are furious at Elmo for bringing federal heat down on the whole organization with his extravagant and selfish habits
posted by clockzero at 1:31 PM on December 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
Kevin Wong Extremely Mad At Child Puppet On Child Puppet Show
flagged as obvious propaganda from Big Puppet
posted by poffin boffin at 1:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [16 favorites]
flagged as obvious propaganda from Big Puppet
posted by poffin boffin at 1:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [16 favorites]
The existence of Elmo isn't what grates so much as the transformation of Sesame Street more or less into The Elmo Show. It seems kids have a window when a baby-talking character may have appeal, but that window closes pretty quickly.
I've found he appeals more to parents than kids, really. Parents who, for whatever reason, dislike the idea of "edgy" (and not coincidentally, interesting and amusing) characters or are just more comfortable with their kids seeing a simpler, emptier character.
One of the neat things about the old shows is how they could hold an older, even adult, audience. I get a sense that that people who dislike Elmo don't feel they outgrew Sesame Street. Rather, it's more that Sesame Street regressed into a saccharine, kind of stunted developmental state that offers less for older audiences, other than gift ideas for birthdays and Christmas.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:43 PM on December 6, 2015 [24 favorites]
I've found he appeals more to parents than kids, really. Parents who, for whatever reason, dislike the idea of "edgy" (and not coincidentally, interesting and amusing) characters or are just more comfortable with their kids seeing a simpler, emptier character.
One of the neat things about the old shows is how they could hold an older, even adult, audience. I get a sense that that people who dislike Elmo don't feel they outgrew Sesame Street. Rather, it's more that Sesame Street regressed into a saccharine, kind of stunted developmental state that offers less for older audiences, other than gift ideas for birthdays and Christmas.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:43 PM on December 6, 2015 [24 favorites]
Ceterum autem censeo Elmus esse delendam.
"Elmonem esse delendum," surely?
posted by DaDaDaDave at 1:53 PM on December 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
"Elmonem esse delendum," surely?
posted by DaDaDaDave at 1:53 PM on December 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
"Elmonem esse delendum," surely?
All I know about Latin I learned playing Fallout: New Vegas.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
All I know about Latin I learned playing Fallout: New Vegas.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Everything I know about art I learned from Don Music.
posted by GuyZero at 1:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 1:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
My toddler only watches short films from the French Nouvelle Vague so I'm expecting him to turn into a Real Adult, unlike all those pampered crybabies who watch Elmo on Sesame Street and probably need to have their meals prepared for them
posted by shakespeherian at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2015 [37 favorites]
Jet This! JET ENGINE vs TICKLE ME ELMO
"Do I really need to say why we're going to do this?"
posted by jason's_planet at 2:05 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Do I really need to say why we're going to do this?"
posted by jason's_planet at 2:05 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also I will pretty much forgive Elmo everything because of this bit with Ricky Gervais.
posted by Mchelly at 2:11 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 2:11 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Paraphrasing Chuck Jones: when I dream, I dream I'm Kermit. When I'm awake, I'm Don Music.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:31 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:31 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Kids love Pingu, too. I mean, seriously! They find that €&?(/&%@# voice "cute," and in ev-e-ry single episode they wait for that meep-meep moment of pre-adolescent pingu-brain-zap, and they shriek with pleasure when it finally materialises. Meeep-meep.
I guess, tastes vary. There should be a Sesame Street for those of us who are now mature and serious. (and who learned English with it back in the day when it all happened...) [and the Grinch...].
Anyway what I came to say, I like Elmo fine.
posted by Namlit at 2:36 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess, tastes vary. There should be a Sesame Street for those of us who are now mature and serious. (and who learned English with it back in the day when it all happened...) [and the Grinch...].
Anyway what I came to say, I like Elmo fine.
posted by Namlit at 2:36 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Grownups probably shouldn't spend so much time thinking about kids shows, but maybe that's just me.
posted by jpe at 2:42 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jpe at 2:42 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Have you seen The Wire? You might really like it! Much like Sesame Street, it's about an inner-city, and talks about problems like crime and poverty and community and friendship, all while teaching a lot of important lessons about life. It's kind of like Sesame Street for people who are tired of Elmo dumbing everything down. I definitely recommend it!
Oh, come now... have you seen Sesame Street before it became The Elmo Show? It was The Wire!
posted by 2N2222 at 2:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh, come now... have you seen Sesame Street before it became The Elmo Show? It was The Wire!
posted by 2N2222 at 2:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Like all right thinking folks, madajb feels Elmo is an abomination.
Part of it is the third person speaking voice. It's like a little, red, Bob Dole has taken over madajb's house.
madajb understands the reasoning behind it, but madajb thinks that children over the age of 3 should have outgrown that.
But more annoyingly, madajb believes the real problem with Elmo is that "Sesame Street" become the "Elmo and Friends Show".
If you watch the Sesame Street episodes that were airing when madajb was a child, the muppets are part of a fully realized neighborhood.
They interact with the adults and each other in "real" ways.
Crucially, though, every muppet got a chance to shine. There were Bert and Ernie episodes, Oscar features, etc.
Since the debut of Elmo, madajb has noticed that every. single. sketch. eventually has Elmo appearing and becoming the protagonist.
Baby Bear is fighting with Telly? Don't worry, Elmo is there with an object lesson!
Abby Caddaby accidentally turned someone into a frog? Don't worry, Elmo will find the magical spell!
Elmo is having trouble with the voices in Elmo's head? Elmo will help Elmo!
madajb also has issues with other changes in Sesame Street (madajb is not a fan of the CGI Burt and Ernie or Abby Cadabby, nor is madajb a fan of the reduced screen time of the adults).
But in general, madajb thinks that Elmo should gracefully fade away and let the show regain an Elmo-free equilibrium.
posted by madajb at 2:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
Part of it is the third person speaking voice. It's like a little, red, Bob Dole has taken over madajb's house.
madajb understands the reasoning behind it, but madajb thinks that children over the age of 3 should have outgrown that.
But more annoyingly, madajb believes the real problem with Elmo is that "Sesame Street" become the "Elmo and Friends Show".
If you watch the Sesame Street episodes that were airing when madajb was a child, the muppets are part of a fully realized neighborhood.
They interact with the adults and each other in "real" ways.
Crucially, though, every muppet got a chance to shine. There were Bert and Ernie episodes, Oscar features, etc.
Since the debut of Elmo, madajb has noticed that every. single. sketch. eventually has Elmo appearing and becoming the protagonist.
Baby Bear is fighting with Telly? Don't worry, Elmo is there with an object lesson!
Abby Caddaby accidentally turned someone into a frog? Don't worry, Elmo will find the magical spell!
Elmo is having trouble with the voices in Elmo's head? Elmo will help Elmo!
madajb also has issues with other changes in Sesame Street (madajb is not a fan of the CGI Burt and Ernie or Abby Cadabby, nor is madajb a fan of the reduced screen time of the adults).
But in general, madajb thinks that Elmo should gracefully fade away and let the show regain an Elmo-free equilibrium.
posted by madajb at 2:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
I definitely prefer the older, grittier Sesame Street- it just seemed more real back then.
Like when they had that blackout, or when Son of Sam shot those two muppets in that car.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [46 favorites]
Like when they had that blackout, or when Son of Sam shot those two muppets in that car.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [46 favorites]
The show has been going downhill ever since they revealed that Snuffleupagus was just a hallucination of Big Bird's when he was quitting heroin cold-turkey.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:54 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 2:54 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Sesame Street had some pretty amazing things back then- like their documenting the emergence of hip hop, or Herry Monster's involvement in the early hardcore scene.
You wouldn't see that sort of thing on Sesame Street now- it's all too sanitized.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:57 PM on December 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
You wouldn't see that sort of thing on Sesame Street now- it's all too sanitized.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:57 PM on December 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Many people don't realize it, but Telly Monster is still with us today -- as Bernie Sanders.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 2:59 PM on December 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
"Mi dispiace, ma è la nostra cosa, Elmo, non il vostro cosa," Ernesto "Ernie" Abandonato said, before quietly removing a pair of pinking shears from a black velvet bag
posted by clockzero at 3:11 PM on December 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 3:11 PM on December 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
I remember years ago I was driving home from a friend's house at around 4 in the morning.
The public radio station was doing a show about how Sesame Street had recently released a box set of stuff from the 70s, but had included a warning label that it may be appropriate for grownups only.
They said "what do you think? What does it mean that old Sesame Street episodes may not be seen as appropriate for children?" And they opened the lines to calls, because it was a call-in show.
But it was four in the morning, so the first call was a guy who said "yeah, uh, I think the problem is that we have to hide things, but it's changing, and like in Europe you have ads where you can almost see the whole breast, and now we show TV shows with like V neck sweaters and stuff, and you can almost see the whole breast, so uh.... uh.... shit, I don't know." Then he hung up. After like five seconds of dead air, they said "OK, let's see what our next caller has to say."
I know the conversation here is about Sesame Street, but that was by far the best radio call-in show ever.
posted by teponaztli at 3:20 PM on December 6, 2015 [41 favorites]
The public radio station was doing a show about how Sesame Street had recently released a box set of stuff from the 70s, but had included a warning label that it may be appropriate for grownups only.
They said "what do you think? What does it mean that old Sesame Street episodes may not be seen as appropriate for children?" And they opened the lines to calls, because it was a call-in show.
But it was four in the morning, so the first call was a guy who said "yeah, uh, I think the problem is that we have to hide things, but it's changing, and like in Europe you have ads where you can almost see the whole breast, and now we show TV shows with like V neck sweaters and stuff, and you can almost see the whole breast, so uh.... uh.... shit, I don't know." Then he hung up. After like five seconds of dead air, they said "OK, let's see what our next caller has to say."
I know the conversation here is about Sesame Street, but that was by far the best radio call-in show ever.
posted by teponaztli at 3:20 PM on December 6, 2015 [41 favorites]
> Grownups probably shouldn't spend so much time thinking about kids shows, but maybe that's just me.
Who exactly should be thinking critically about the media kids consume?
posted by l_zzie at 3:21 PM on December 6, 2015 [40 favorites]
Who exactly should be thinking critically about the media kids consume?
posted by l_zzie at 3:21 PM on December 6, 2015 [40 favorites]
Besides the people who make and produce the show with a team of child psychologists and rigorous testing to make sure strong ideas can best be communicated to the kids in the audience?
posted by teponaztli at 3:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 3:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Have you seen The Wire? You might really like it!
Did you never see the Sesame Street episode where Idris Elba was a guest, and Stringer Bell taught Elmo a Very Important Lesson about Having a Business Plan?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:28 PM on December 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
Did you never see the Sesame Street episode where Idris Elba was a guest, and Stringer Bell taught Elmo a Very Important Lesson about Having a Business Plan?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:28 PM on December 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
Sure, but as for which ideas and why, you need other people involved in the discussions. Especially if you believe that the ideas seem to be more about merchandising than actual learning.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:29 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:29 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly the one old Sesame Street episode that really stood out was when, on the same day they aired the episode where Data maybe attempts to straight-up kill Kivas Fajo, maybe not, they aired the Sesame Street episode where Linda finds half a dead hooker in the garbage can next to Oscar's. Did Oscar do it? Was he threatened into silence? Was he so wasted he never even noticed? The episode leaves us with no resolution or firm answers, whatsoever.
Slightly shell-shocked from that, I shouldered my backpack and got on the bus, thousand-yard-stare through my classes, come home, dad pops popcorn and everybody gathers to watch the latest TNG episode, and there's my hero Data maybe overcoming his programming to murder somebody in revenge! And we spend the rest of the series wondering what he's actually capable of when pushed.
I don't think my moral compass ever fully recovered from that double dose of ambiguity, and it's kinda weird to be able to point out with certainty the exact moment when I lost my innocence.
posted by Ryvar at 3:35 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Slightly shell-shocked from that, I shouldered my backpack and got on the bus, thousand-yard-stare through my classes, come home, dad pops popcorn and everybody gathers to watch the latest TNG episode, and there's my hero Data maybe overcoming his programming to murder somebody in revenge! And we spend the rest of the series wondering what he's actually capable of when pushed.
I don't think my moral compass ever fully recovered from that double dose of ambiguity, and it's kinda weird to be able to point out with certainty the exact moment when I lost my innocence.
posted by Ryvar at 3:35 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
You seen Oscar? He's, like, some kind of web guy now. I know, right? Fuckin' crazy, man
Oscar will always get a pass from me for fronting Cro-Mags. Age of Quarrel was amazing, man.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:39 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oscar will always get a pass from me for fronting Cro-Mags. Age of Quarrel was amazing, man.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:39 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Especially if you believe that the ideas seem to be more about merchandising than actual learning.
Also, why don't they know what real music is these days?
posted by shakespeherian at 3:40 PM on December 6, 2015
Also, why don't they know what real music is these days?
posted by shakespeherian at 3:40 PM on December 6, 2015
The problem I have with discussions about Sesame Street is that they seem to be based, in large part, on the idea that any change from how the show was 30 years ago must surely be because of marketing, or helicopter parenting, or anything other than careful consideration on the part of very dedicated people. I mean, or even just the fact that the social landscape of the world changes over time, and the way we talk about stuff changes along with it.
They haven't stopped putting a huge amount of thought and care into the work that they produce. When, for example, the Cookie Monster became the Apple Monster, the conversation became one about how they obviously don't understand kids, because kids need xyz. But is it possible that maybe they had a point? I'm certainly not a child psychologist.
Either way, we can't pretend that the show was ever perfect. But every time someone says "well, they'd never touch this topic anymore," it reads like one of those arguments about how today's college students are coddled, or something. Because of course they still handle tough topics - I mean, there's a character whose father is in jail, for God's sake. Just because you don't know about it, or because they're not talking about stuff the way they did when you were a kid, doesn't mean it's not there.
People can say what they like about how the tone of the show is too different, or they can't relate to it, or even that Elmo is annoying. But to imply that the show doesn't make a huge effort to introduce kids to difficult topics is mistaken at best.
posted by teponaztli at 3:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
They haven't stopped putting a huge amount of thought and care into the work that they produce. When, for example, the Cookie Monster became the Apple Monster, the conversation became one about how they obviously don't understand kids, because kids need xyz. But is it possible that maybe they had a point? I'm certainly not a child psychologist.
Either way, we can't pretend that the show was ever perfect. But every time someone says "well, they'd never touch this topic anymore," it reads like one of those arguments about how today's college students are coddled, or something. Because of course they still handle tough topics - I mean, there's a character whose father is in jail, for God's sake. Just because you don't know about it, or because they're not talking about stuff the way they did when you were a kid, doesn't mean it's not there.
People can say what they like about how the tone of the show is too different, or they can't relate to it, or even that Elmo is annoying. But to imply that the show doesn't make a huge effort to introduce kids to difficult topics is mistaken at best.
posted by teponaztli at 3:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
Did you never see the Sesame Street episode where Idris Elba was a guest, and Stringer Bell taught Elmo a Very Important Lesson about Having a Business Plan?
Imagine Stringer Bell holding a meeting with the muppets about The Game and Product:
Imagine Stringer Bell holding a meeting with the muppets about The Game and Product:
Elmo: (a bunch of ignorant nonsense)posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:49 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Stringer Bell: N***er you ain't got the floor, the chair ain't recognize yo ass
...
Elmo: Do the chair know we're going to look like some punk ass bitches out there?
Stringer Bell: Motherfucker, I will punk ass -
Kermit: Yo yo, String.
Stringer Bell: What?!
Kermit: Elmo did have the floor.
Stringer Bell: Shut the fuck up man, this n****r too ignorant to have the fucking floor. Ya'll n****rs need to start looking at the world in a new fucking light. Start thinking about this shit like some grown fucking men, not some n****rs off the fucking corner, ya'll feel me? Adjourn your asses.
The Creeping Red MenanceTM now with motion-activated squeals of Bolshevik Glee®!
posted by blue_beetle at 3:55 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 3:55 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
We’re a Grover family, the whole way. Now there’s a Muppet who never talked down to or regressed his audience.
YES! Good to know Grover's still around. I was afraid Elmo had "taken care of him."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:04 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
YES! Good to know Grover's still around. I was afraid Elmo had "taken care of him."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:04 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm looking at the Sesame Street website, and I don't know what the show looks like on a day-to-day basis, but I'm glad to see that they do have pages on their site where you can help introduce kids to difficult topics like grief, divorce, or - and this is certainly relevant today - tough times:
During tough economic times, you may face new realities, such as losing a job, relocating, or feeling the pinch of a reduced income. These materials offer simple strategies to help your family cope with changes together.posted by teponaztli at 4:05 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I still see him from time to time, but you know how the Land Of Make Believe is these days. Fuckin' Starbucks on every corner, all the kids I used to see in garbage cans somehow buying condos now.
You know who ruined the Land of Make Believe? General Motors. In the 2000s they bought up all those trolley lines and ripped up the tracks. They completely dismantled the entire streetcar network and replaced it with a few bus lines for the tourists to enjoy.
Seriously, what were the producers thinking? They replaced the trolley with a trolley-bus. How the hell are you supposed to get to the Land of Make Believe on a bus?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:08 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know who ruined the Land of Make Believe? General Motors. In the 2000s they bought up all those trolley lines and ripped up the tracks. They completely dismantled the entire streetcar network and replaced it with a few bus lines for the tourists to enjoy.
Seriously, what were the producers thinking? They replaced the trolley with a trolley-bus. How the hell are you supposed to get to the Land of Make Believe on a bus?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:08 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was always hoping Gonzo would take Elmo on for a bit of mentoring, that is, stuffing the evil red fluff in a cannon.
posted by sammyo at 4:13 PM on December 6, 2015
posted by sammyo at 4:13 PM on December 6, 2015
Oscar will always get a pass from me for fronting Cro-Mags. Age of Quarrel was amazing, man.
I think the Square Elmo vibe drove Oscar to go all crust punk and we all know Cookie Monster went Metal As F*ck and like all the hardass bands have totally stolen his vocal signature.
posted by drowsy at 4:37 PM on December 6, 2015
I think the Square Elmo vibe drove Oscar to go all crust punk and we all know Cookie Monster went Metal As F*ck and like all the hardass bands have totally stolen his vocal signature.
posted by drowsy at 4:37 PM on December 6, 2015
One of the neat things about the old shows is how they could hold an older, even adult, audience. I get a sense that that people who dislike Elmo don't feel they outgrew Sesame Street. Rather, it's more that Sesame Street regressed into a saccharine, kind of stunted developmental state that offers less for older audiences, other than gift ideas for birthdays and Christmas.
My mother describes watching the episode that dealt with Mr. Hooper's death with me and bawling her eyes out. I mean that's obviously an extreme (and famous) case, but has Sesame Street done anything close to that since?
I'm not asking in a "kid's these days" sense. I don't have kids so I haven't watched in years, so I have no idea.
posted by brundlefly at 4:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
My mother describes watching the episode that dealt with Mr. Hooper's death with me and bawling her eyes out. I mean that's obviously an extreme (and famous) case, but has Sesame Street done anything close to that since?
I'm not asking in a "kid's these days" sense. I don't have kids so I haven't watched in years, so I have no idea.
posted by brundlefly at 4:41 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
but has Sesame Street done anything close to that since?
I'm not asking in a "kid's these days" sense. I don't have kids so I haven't watched in years, so I have no idea.
You mean since 1983? Goodwill assumption is . . . yes?
posted by listen, lady at 4:43 PM on December 6, 2015
I'm not asking in a "kid's these days" sense. I don't have kids so I haven't watched in years, so I have no idea.
You mean since 1983? Goodwill assumption is . . . yes?
posted by listen, lady at 4:43 PM on December 6, 2015
I hate that puppet unreasonably. It is a pox, and must be destroyed.
posted by syncope at 4:45 PM on December 6, 2015
posted by syncope at 4:45 PM on December 6, 2015
You mean since 1983? Goodwill assumption is . . . yes?
I ask because there's a lot of "Sesame Street just isn't the same anymore" sentiment in this thread. I don't think it's an altogether silly question given the context.
posted by brundlefly at 4:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I ask because there's a lot of "Sesame Street just isn't the same anymore" sentiment in this thread. I don't think it's an altogether silly question given the context.
posted by brundlefly at 4:45 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
...we all know Cookie Monster went Metal As F*ck and like all the hardass bands have totally stolen his vocal signature.
Relevant.
posted by brundlefly at 4:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Relevant.
posted by brundlefly at 4:46 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Goodwill assumption is . . . yes?
I'm don't think an assumption can be an answer to the question that was asked, though.
posted by IAmUnaware at 4:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm don't think an assumption can be an answer to the question that was asked, though.
posted by IAmUnaware at 4:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I ask because there's a lot of "Sesame Street just isn't the same anymore" sentiment in this thread. I don't think it's an altogether silly question given the context.
"Has this show that I last watched in 1983 done anything notable in the last 32 years?" Okay.
posted by listen, lady at 4:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Has this show that I last watched in 1983 done anything notable in the last 32 years?" Okay.
posted by listen, lady at 4:47 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
“In 1981, when the federal government withdrew its funding, CTW turned to, and expanded, other revenue sources, including its magazine division, book royalties, product licensing . . . ”
So actually, Ronald Reagan ruined Sesame Street, and Elmo was just a symptom. (Of course, Jim Henson's growing Hollywood career in the 80s and his early death in 1990 didn't help either.)
posted by mubba at 4:51 PM on December 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
So actually, Ronald Reagan ruined Sesame Street, and Elmo was just a symptom. (Of course, Jim Henson's growing Hollywood career in the 80s and his early death in 1990 didn't help either.)
posted by mubba at 4:51 PM on December 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
"Has this show that I last watched in 1983 done anything notable in the last 32 years?" Okay.
More like, "Has this show done anything that authentic and powerful in the last 32 years?" Which, again, seems like a perfectly valid question that doesn't merit this kind of snark.
posted by brundlefly at 4:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
More like, "Has this show done anything that authentic and powerful in the last 32 years?" Which, again, seems like a perfectly valid question that doesn't merit this kind of snark.
posted by brundlefly at 4:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
YES! Good to know Grover's still around.
And that duet with Celine Dion on the Titanic theme worked out OK.
NEAR.
*runs*
FAR.
*runs*
WHERE EVER YOU ARRRRRRRRE...
posted by GuyZero at 5:25 PM on December 6, 2015 [23 favorites]
And that duet with Celine Dion on the Titanic theme worked out OK.
NEAR.
*runs*
FAR.
*runs*
WHERE EVER YOU ARRRRRRRRE...
posted by GuyZero at 5:25 PM on December 6, 2015 [23 favorites]
Authentic and powerful to who, though? We as adults are not the target audience of Sesame Street. Sesame Street does not get funding to produce narratives that make us happy. They totally could do that anyway, but if as far as I know they've generally acknowledged that they've had to target a younger audience, it doesn't seem reasonable to criticize a show whose primary mission is educational for failure to have the same sort of dramatic narrative it had when it was geared towards older children.
posted by Sequence at 5:28 PM on December 6, 2015
posted by Sequence at 5:28 PM on December 6, 2015
New Sesame Street is unwatchable because it is so fucking busy and noisy. There was something very quiet and contemplative about the original format that is totally gone today.
Completely unwatchable. I said it.
(Also, tried to re-watch Fraggle Rock few years ago and was aghast at how dark it was! Not for children. I loved it when I was 12, tho. Heh.)
posted by jbenben at 5:37 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Completely unwatchable. I said it.
(Also, tried to re-watch Fraggle Rock few years ago and was aghast at how dark it was! Not for children. I loved it when I was 12, tho. Heh.)
posted by jbenben at 5:37 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
"...After Sesame Street 's initial success, the CTW began to think about its survival beyond the development and first season of the show, since its funding sources were made up of organizations and institutions that tended to start projects, not sustain them.[78] Although the organization was what Cooney called "the darling of the federal government for a brief period of two or three years",[79] its first ten years of existence was marked by conflicts between the two; in 1978, the US Department of Education refused to deliver a $2 million check until the last day of the CTW's fiscal year.[80] According to Davis, the federal government was opposed to funding public television, but the Workshop used Cooney's prestige and fame, and the fact that there would be "great public outcry"[45] if the show was de-funded, to withstand the government's attacks on PBS. Eventually, the CTW got its own line item in the federal budget, but by 1981, government funding for Sesame Street had been terminated.[81][82]
For the first time, a public broadcasting show had the potential to earn a great deal of money. Immediately after its premiere, Sesame Street gained attention from marketers,[78] so the Workshop explored sources such as licensing arrangements, publishing, and international sales, and became, as Cooney envisioned, a "multiple media institution".[83] Licensing became the foundation of, as writer Louise Gikow put it, the Sesame Workshop endowment,[84] which had the potential to support the organization and fund future productions and projects.[85] Muppet creator Jim Henson owned the trademarks to the Muppet characters: he was reluctant to market them at first, but agreed when the CTW promised that the profits from toys, books, and other products were to be used exclusively to fund the CTW. The producers demanded complete control over all products and product decisions throughout its history; any product line associated with the show had to be educational, inexpensive, and not advertised during airings of Sesame Street.[86] As Davis reported, "Cooney stressed restraint, prudence, and caution" in their marketing and licensing efforts.[87] In the early 1970s, the CTW approached Random House to establish and manage a non-broadcast materials division. Random House and the CTW named Christopher Cerf to assist the CTW in publishing books and other materials that emphasized the show's curriculum.[85]
Shortly after the premiere of Sesame Street, the CTW was approached by producers, educators, and officials in other nations, requesting that a version of the show be aired in their countries. Former CBS executive Mike Dann left commercial television to become vice-president of the CTW and Cooney's assistant,[note 2] and began what Charlotte Cole, vice president for the CTW's International Research department in 2001, called the "globalization" of Sesame Street[89] by arranging what came to be called co-productions, or independent programs with their own sets, characters, and curriculum goals. By 2009, Sesame Street had expanded into 140 countries;[90] The New York Times reported in 2005 that income from the CTW's international co-productions of the show was $96 million.[91] By 2008, the Sesame Street Muppets accounted for between $15 million and $17 million per year in licensing and merchandising fees, split between the Workshop and Henson Associates.[92]"
tl;dr:
Licensing became the foundation of, as writer Louise Gikow put it, the Sesame Workshop endowment, which had the potential to support the organization and fund future productions and projects.posted by ennui.bz at 5:57 PM on December 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was too old for "Sesame Street" when it first aired, but it was so wonderful I guiltily watched it. It was unlike anything else on the air. I can't watch it *now*, but I don't know if that's because I hate Elmo so much or because it has been so influential that it no longer has that uniqueness.
posted by acrasis at 5:58 PM on December 6, 2015
posted by acrasis at 5:58 PM on December 6, 2015
My nephew, age 6, asked me just last night which was my least favorite Sesame Street muppet, and I confessed that it was Elmo. I expected him to get upset, because all the kids love Elmo, but he said, "Oh, is that because Elmo is really annoying?" I have a smart nephew.
posted by holborne at 6:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by holborne at 6:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
Many people don't realize it, but Telly Monster is still with us today -- as Bernie Sanders.
Sesame Street's head writer: "Telly Monster is my favorite. I don’t understand why kids don’t love Telly more."
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:28 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sesame Street's head writer: "Telly Monster is my favorite. I don’t understand why kids don’t love Telly more."
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:28 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, relevant quote on the Elmo topic:
I love writing for Elmo, Elmo’s really fun to write for too. My favorite thing is when we came up with Rocco, Zoe’s pet rock. I love it because it shows this darkness to Elmo, like Elmo gets mad. “It’s not a pet, it’s a rock!” I wrote Rocco first, and when I found that little dynamic, Elmo suddenly got a whole other side to him, it’s not all super sweet.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love writing for Elmo, Elmo’s really fun to write for too. My favorite thing is when we came up with Rocco, Zoe’s pet rock. I love it because it shows this darkness to Elmo, like Elmo gets mad. “It’s not a pet, it’s a rock!” I wrote Rocco first, and when I found that little dynamic, Elmo suddenly got a whole other side to him, it’s not all super sweet.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
When BAM screened Follow That Bird a few years ago the CTW brought Telly for a pre-show.
posted by brujita at 6:56 PM on December 6, 2015
posted by brujita at 6:56 PM on December 6, 2015
If only I had a penguin..., I think you're right about the cause, but I don't think it's something that I want to go away. Part of what got realized over time was that when I was a kid (in the 80s), white and middle-class kids arrived in kindergarten ready for reading. I was an early reader, but you didn't have to be an early reader, you just had to be ready. You'd been exposed to bits and pieces of stuff. Your parents were reading to you and with you from an early age. For low-income and minority kids whose parents weren't necessarily themselves very literate, that wasn't happening. The mission of Sesame Street was to reach the kids who didn't already have all the advantages. That's why it existed, that's why it's set in an urban area, that's why it has a diverse cast.
Unfortunately, now the affluent are pushing this so early that there's no earlier Sesame Street can adequately reach kids who need a leg up. But they don't suffer from the loss of educational public TV aimed at that age group; low-income kids do.
I wasn't lamenting that sesame street is trying to help low-income kids (or was before HBO) keep up. I was lamenting that for some reason middle class parents now think their kids should be able to read younger and younger. That's the part I think should stop. Let kids, including middle class kids, play in kindergarten and learn to read in Grade 1, like God intended. The revival of Sesame Street would be a (minor in importance, especially relative to the direct benefits but nonetheless welcome) side-effect of ending the drive to have kids read in kindergarten and before.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:56 PM on December 6, 2015
Unfortunately, now the affluent are pushing this so early that there's no earlier Sesame Street can adequately reach kids who need a leg up. But they don't suffer from the loss of educational public TV aimed at that age group; low-income kids do.
I wasn't lamenting that sesame street is trying to help low-income kids (or was before HBO) keep up. I was lamenting that for some reason middle class parents now think their kids should be able to read younger and younger. That's the part I think should stop. Let kids, including middle class kids, play in kindergarten and learn to read in Grade 1, like God intended. The revival of Sesame Street would be a (minor in importance, especially relative to the direct benefits but nonetheless welcome) side-effect of ending the drive to have kids read in kindergarten and before.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:56 PM on December 6, 2015
like all the hardass bands have totally stolen his vocal signature
Vocal deep fry.
posted by flabdablet at 6:58 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Vocal deep fry.
posted by flabdablet at 6:58 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
New Sesame Street is unwatchable because it is so fucking busy and noisy. There was something very quiet and contemplative about the original format that is totally gone today.
This is exactly how I feel. Old Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers episodes are such a pleasant, peaceful way to spend half an hour with your kid on a rainy day. New kid tv feels like it is exploding flash bombs inside my brain. There is nothing quiet and nice like that that I've ever found.
For the record Elmo is bad but the true horror of modern Sesame Street is the animated Abby Cadabby segment. I mean ...... what??????
posted by gerstle at 7:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is exactly how I feel. Old Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers episodes are such a pleasant, peaceful way to spend half an hour with your kid on a rainy day. New kid tv feels like it is exploding flash bombs inside my brain. There is nothing quiet and nice like that that I've ever found.
For the record Elmo is bad but the true horror of modern Sesame Street is the animated Abby Cadabby segment. I mean ...... what??????
posted by gerstle at 7:26 PM on December 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
New Sesame Street is unwatchable because it is so fucking busy and noisy.
New Sesame Street has Murray, who is also featured in the best-ever Sesame Street segment (co-starring Jon Hamm).
Actually, I think most of Sesame Street is pretty good these days, and I'm totally shipping Chris and Leela.
At his worst, Elmo encourages immature behavior rather than discouraging it.
This seems like a really common complaint leveled at modern kid's TV, from Caillou to Daniel Tiger--that shows which accurately depict the emotional states of children are somehow encouraging tantrums. I will never stop rolling my eyes in my head at some woman on my FB feed who was super pissed that her child started telling her she was mad because of a Daniel Tiger segment. God forbid. The thing is, most of the research on children's emotional regulation right now seems to be about teaching children to express emotions rather than discouraging those emotions or expressing those emotions. Wong admits that teaching genuine empathy is beyond the ability of most 3 year olds. And says that 3 year olds aren't the audience. But they are. Most 4 and 5 year olds are in daycare or preschool when Sesame Street airs. It's kids my daughter's age--22 months, she likes Elmo okay but prefers the Count or Cookie Monster, neither of whom are great for modeling maturity--who are the show's primary audience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
New Sesame Street has Murray, who is also featured in the best-ever Sesame Street segment (co-starring Jon Hamm).
Actually, I think most of Sesame Street is pretty good these days, and I'm totally shipping Chris and Leela.
At his worst, Elmo encourages immature behavior rather than discouraging it.
This seems like a really common complaint leveled at modern kid's TV, from Caillou to Daniel Tiger--that shows which accurately depict the emotional states of children are somehow encouraging tantrums. I will never stop rolling my eyes in my head at some woman on my FB feed who was super pissed that her child started telling her she was mad because of a Daniel Tiger segment. God forbid. The thing is, most of the research on children's emotional regulation right now seems to be about teaching children to express emotions rather than discouraging those emotions or expressing those emotions. Wong admits that teaching genuine empathy is beyond the ability of most 3 year olds. And says that 3 year olds aren't the audience. But they are. Most 4 and 5 year olds are in daycare or preschool when Sesame Street airs. It's kids my daughter's age--22 months, she likes Elmo okay but prefers the Count or Cookie Monster, neither of whom are great for modeling maturity--who are the show's primary audience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:56 PM on December 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
I literally expressed the exact same sentiment of Elmo vs Grover to my wife 2 days ago! I am mad about dumb puppets, but I am not alone.
I also think Super Grover helped me ease my way into comics and superheros as a youngster
Super Grover needs to destroy Elmo for the good of society.
posted by Sprocket at 8:06 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I also think Super Grover helped me ease my way into comics and superheros as a youngster
Super Grover needs to destroy Elmo for the good of society.
posted by Sprocket at 8:06 PM on December 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
"The show has been going downhill ever since they revealed that Snuffleupagus was just a hallucination of Big Bird's when he was quitting heroin cold-turkey."
Cold Turkey was the name of Big Bird's heroin dealer.
posted by Sprocket at 8:13 PM on December 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Cold Turkey was the name of Big Bird's heroin dealer.
posted by Sprocket at 8:13 PM on December 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
I think the incredible potential of public television to help improve the lives of young children was put best by Mister Rogers. One of the things that I think Sesame Street gave me as a child was a large cast of characters to identify with, and explore multiple aspects of my personality with. It also really helped construct a worldview in which diversity, not just of race but of personality, is normal, and because no one character (representing some archetype) was dominant in the show, no one way of being a person was normalized.
I haven't really seen Sesame Street other than the occasional little clip on the internet in decades, so I have no basis for an opinion regarding its current quality. But I think that to the extent that it's true that the show has become dominated by Elmo, I think that's giving up on one of the themes that helped weird-kid me grow up.
posted by biogeo at 8:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I haven't really seen Sesame Street other than the occasional little clip on the internet in decades, so I have no basis for an opinion regarding its current quality. But I think that to the extent that it's true that the show has become dominated by Elmo, I think that's giving up on one of the themes that helped weird-kid me grow up.
posted by biogeo at 8:18 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
A Massive Image of Elmo
by Stan Apps (link*)
A massive image of Elmo is in the air above Elmo.
Elmo is surrounded by monsters of other colors
Looking at Elmo, listening to Elmo.
Elmo in the air holds his paws up and out
Reaching out to the world, to beseech, to cuddle
Blue monsters look at Elmo, green monsters look at Elmo
Monsters made out of used rags shake Elmo's hand
Elmo is at the center
Elmo creates the circle that surrounds Elmo
There is nothing more deeply human than the family
The family is a dynamic power structure
That contains individuals by circumscribing them
Circles are sacred; the centers of circles are sources
Elmo creates the circle that surrounds Elmo
The circle creates the massive image of Elmo
That is in the air above Elmo
All the monsters around Elmo take meaning from Elmo
Monster society is the production of monster consciousness and monster being
by monsters
The massive image of Elmo above Elmo is on a wall
The meaning that Elmo offers us is not a created meaning
Elmo is a monster at the center of the world
Which is where monsters belong
And the world shall serve the interests of monsters now
Rather than the abstract needs of imaginary beings
*I know Stan Apps personally and am about 80% certain he'd be okay with me reproducing this here.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:30 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
by Stan Apps (link*)
A massive image of Elmo is in the air above Elmo.
Elmo is surrounded by monsters of other colors
Looking at Elmo, listening to Elmo.
Elmo in the air holds his paws up and out
Reaching out to the world, to beseech, to cuddle
Blue monsters look at Elmo, green monsters look at Elmo
Monsters made out of used rags shake Elmo's hand
Elmo is at the center
Elmo creates the circle that surrounds Elmo
There is nothing more deeply human than the family
The family is a dynamic power structure
That contains individuals by circumscribing them
Circles are sacred; the centers of circles are sources
Elmo creates the circle that surrounds Elmo
The circle creates the massive image of Elmo
That is in the air above Elmo
All the monsters around Elmo take meaning from Elmo
Monster society is the production of monster consciousness and monster being
by monsters
The massive image of Elmo above Elmo is on a wall
The meaning that Elmo offers us is not a created meaning
Elmo is a monster at the center of the world
Which is where monsters belong
And the world shall serve the interests of monsters now
Rather than the abstract needs of imaginary beings
*I know Stan Apps personally and am about 80% certain he'd be okay with me reproducing this here.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:30 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
What I like about Elmo and today's sesame street is that it is so boring that my kids (4 and 2) wander off and do other stuff after about 25 minutes.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 8:49 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 8:49 PM on December 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Slightly shell-shocked from that, I shouldered my backpack and got on the bus, thousand-yard-stare through my classes, come home, dad pops popcorn and everybody gathers to watch the latest TNG episode, and there's my hero Data maybe overcoming his programming to murder somebody in revenge! And we spend the rest of the series wondering what he's actually capable of when pushed.
People can joke here about Sesame Street being more like The Wire, but Deep Space Nine was TNG crossed with The Wire. At no time was this more evident when Worf joined the show--Worf, who did flat-out kill the guy who murdered his baby mama--and everyone's like, dude, you have so much to learn, this ain't your fern-bar-lookin' starship.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:16 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
People can joke here about Sesame Street being more like The Wire, but Deep Space Nine was TNG crossed with The Wire. At no time was this more evident when Worf joined the show--Worf, who did flat-out kill the guy who murdered his baby mama--and everyone's like, dude, you have so much to learn, this ain't your fern-bar-lookin' starship.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:16 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know speech develops differently from kid to kid, but I get annoyed when I hear this argument that Elmo is a three-year-old. I know no three-year-old who speaks this stupidly. I babysit a three-year-old and I get pissed as hell when she does her dumb baby Elmo imitation. "You are better than this, Lulu."
GROVER AND MR. JOHNSON FOREVER
posted by queensissy at 9:17 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
GROVER AND MR. JOHNSON FOREVER
posted by queensissy at 9:17 PM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
This skit is excellent. I mean, check out their patches! That's some awesome attention to detail.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:02 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by alex_skazat at 10:02 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had a conflicted reaction to this piece in the sense that I don't disagree with the content, while at the same time feeling like "Elmo ruined Sesame Street" hot takes were passe over 20 years ago (the first thing I did was check the date this was published, since I couldn't believe someone would still be writing a sincere article on this well-trodden subject in late 2015). This article felt about as original as someone pointing out that not all of the examples of irony in the song "Ironic" meet the technical definition of the term.
posted by The Gooch at 10:53 PM on December 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by The Gooch at 10:53 PM on December 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
I found a licensed Super Grover patch while cleaning out the garage. I must find an appropriate garment or shoulder bag to which I should permanently affix it.
#SuperG4Life
posted by tilde at 3:34 AM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
#SuperG4Life
posted by tilde at 3:34 AM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Did anybody else have a nightmare in their youth where everybody from Sesame Street was mad at them, or that is that my thing that I should probably talk to my therapist about?
posted by angrycat at 3:56 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 3:56 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
animated Abby Cadabby So very much this, thank you gerstle. And it's not wonderful animation; it's pink and chirpy and devoid of anything that could possibly suggest magic. I like Elmo, my 15-month-old grandson loves Elmo. I miss the great little films they used to have a lot more of. real kids in real neighborhoods doing stuff. And weird clips like the animated guy in a plastic cup - that was animation that was interesting and not just like every other piece of animated drivel that gets shoveled out to little kids. There was more snark aimed at parents; it sailed over the kids' heads, and engaging parents means they watch with their kids, and get involved. The pace is a lot more frantic, probbaly because all tv is that way, and they have to adapt. We watch Sesame Street. It's still a great deal better than pretty much all other programming for kids.
When I watch Sesame Street with the grandbaby, I frequently wish I could just get the old shows to watch. If Netflix got Captain Kangaroo, I'll bet it would get tons of play.
posted by theora55 at 5:38 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
When I watch Sesame Street with the grandbaby, I frequently wish I could just get the old shows to watch. If Netflix got Captain Kangaroo, I'll bet it would get tons of play.
posted by theora55 at 5:38 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here's the thing, though: Is that cause or symptom. Once upon a time, we learned to read in Grade 1. So teaching kids to identify letters and the very basic of sounds up until more-or-less that age made sense. Now parents and the education system have gone off their rockers wanting kids to read younger and younger. If you imagine kids need to be able to read at 3 or 4, then it doesn't make sense to be teaching 6 year olds what the letter B looks like. The central avatar HAD TO get younger.
A random memory that pops into my thoughts from time to time, is being at a swimming pool at age five, talking to an adult (a swim instructor? Friend's dad? Someone having an adult-to-five-year-old friendly conversation with me.) He asked me if I could read yet, and I told him no. So he asked my age, and I answered five. He smilingly replied, "Five? But you're supposed to learn to read when you're four!"
This would have been circa 1988.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 6:06 AM on December 7, 2015
A random memory that pops into my thoughts from time to time, is being at a swimming pool at age five, talking to an adult (a swim instructor? Friend's dad? Someone having an adult-to-five-year-old friendly conversation with me.) He asked me if I could read yet, and I told him no. So he asked my age, and I answered five. He smilingly replied, "Five? But you're supposed to learn to read when you're four!"
This would have been circa 1988.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 6:06 AM on December 7, 2015
My parents apparently watch Sesame Street with our son, but they haven't said anything about the story lines or Elmo yet. I think he's annoying as hell -- not quite Caillou level, but obnoxious enough to warrant staying away from that madness. I do know that we won't ever be giving Soren Elmo toys, especially ones that talk.
Of course, you could just be like Twain Device and me and just watch things like King of the Hill and Daria when you're cartooning with the kid. Throw in an occasional Daniel Tiger and it's almost like you're a passable parent.
posted by The Juche Idea at 6:07 AM on December 7, 2015
Of course, you could just be like Twain Device and me and just watch things like King of the Hill and Daria when you're cartooning with the kid. Throw in an occasional Daniel Tiger and it's almost like you're a passable parent.
posted by The Juche Idea at 6:07 AM on December 7, 2015
Super Grover needs to destroy Elmo for the good of society.
They've tried this on occasion. There was Crisis on Elmo-4 in '99, where Super Grover teamed up with Teeny Little Super Guy and the Justice Society to keep Earth-4 Elmo from obtaining nuclear missiles and holding the American government for ransom, for instance. Or the time that Elmo brainwashed Kang the Conqueror into taking over most of the Shiar empire, and Cyclops had to blast Wolverine to keep him from putting three claws through Elmo's skull when the deception was revealed. That caused a schism in the X-Men that took a long time to heal, if it ever truly did.
But the continuity problems that Crisis on Infinite Elmos caused were worse than the ones it cleared up. The death of Guy Smiley and the reveal that Count Von Count had been a Skrull since '83 messed up Roosevelt Franklin's origins so badly that it'll be a miracle if they ever bring him out of limbo. A few of the Muppets were created specifically to die in Crisis, of course, but they went too far and pruned away some valuable supporting cast. And let's not even get into what they did to the Yip Yips.
posted by delfin at 6:09 AM on December 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
They've tried this on occasion. There was Crisis on Elmo-4 in '99, where Super Grover teamed up with Teeny Little Super Guy and the Justice Society to keep Earth-4 Elmo from obtaining nuclear missiles and holding the American government for ransom, for instance. Or the time that Elmo brainwashed Kang the Conqueror into taking over most of the Shiar empire, and Cyclops had to blast Wolverine to keep him from putting three claws through Elmo's skull when the deception was revealed. That caused a schism in the X-Men that took a long time to heal, if it ever truly did.
But the continuity problems that Crisis on Infinite Elmos caused were worse than the ones it cleared up. The death of Guy Smiley and the reveal that Count Von Count had been a Skrull since '83 messed up Roosevelt Franklin's origins so badly that it'll be a miracle if they ever bring him out of limbo. A few of the Muppets were created specifically to die in Crisis, of course, but they went too far and pruned away some valuable supporting cast. And let's not even get into what they did to the Yip Yips.
posted by delfin at 6:09 AM on December 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
And no Elmo merchandise. Is this petty? I don’t care. I’m not getting involved. If he appears as a side character in a book, fine. If he appears in some group sketch with other Muppets, I’ll look the other way. But for all intents and purposes, Elmo products are banned.
I would like to help fund sending him an Elmo doll every single day until all there is is a big pile of Elmo dolls in his house and he just stops already.
posted by discopolo at 6:21 AM on December 7, 2015
I would like to help fund sending him an Elmo doll every single day until all there is is a big pile of Elmo dolls in his house and he just stops already.
posted by discopolo at 6:21 AM on December 7, 2015
New Sesame Street is unwatchable because it is so fucking busy and noisy.
To be fair, to those of us who grew up watching 60s/70s tv, this is true of most contemporary programming. And sports, holy cow, sports coverage is on meth compared to back in the day.
posted by aught at 6:44 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
To be fair, to those of us who grew up watching 60s/70s tv, this is true of most contemporary programming. And sports, holy cow, sports coverage is on meth compared to back in the day.
posted by aught at 6:44 AM on December 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Being too "busy and noisy" was also probably the most common complaint of Sesame Street when it started, which is amusing.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm late to this thread, but Fleebnork Jr. is turning 4 next week, so this is a subject close to home.
When Jr. was about 6 months old, my wife and I were watching The Muppets and noticed him really following Kermit on screen. So we decided to try some Sesame Street. He instantly loved Elmo. We watched so much Elmo.
He stuck with Elmo for about a year. He moved on to Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and later, preschool shows like Team UmiZoomi.
But I learned to love Elmo. Elmo gave me a few precious minutes of time back.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:32 AM on December 7, 2015
When Jr. was about 6 months old, my wife and I were watching The Muppets and noticed him really following Kermit on screen. So we decided to try some Sesame Street. He instantly loved Elmo. We watched so much Elmo.
He stuck with Elmo for about a year. He moved on to Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and later, preschool shows like Team UmiZoomi.
But I learned to love Elmo. Elmo gave me a few precious minutes of time back.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:32 AM on December 7, 2015
His paws are sweaty, arms blue, lids are heavy
There's spaghetti on his sweater already: he spilled the spaghetti
-Grover
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:33 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
There's spaghetti on his sweater already: he spilled the spaghetti
-Grover
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:33 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Richard Pryor vs. Elmo would have been interesting.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:28 AM on December 7, 2015
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:28 AM on December 7, 2015
I'd just like to point out to all you jokers making up shit about how "dark" Sesame Street was back in the day that when they did that special where they visit the Metropolitan Museum of Art Big Bird and Snuffy straight up actually meet a dead child and confront a demon. This is a real thing that happened in the Sesame Street canon.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:34 AM on December 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:34 AM on December 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
To be fair, to those of us who grew up watching 60s/70s tv, this is true of most contemporary programming. And sports, holy cow, sports coverage is on meth compared to back in the day.
About the busy and noisy comment related to TV programming back in the day generally, and sports coverage specifically... BASEBALL IS ALSO UNWATCHABLE TODAY.
I can't believe someone brought this up. So not only is my son missing out on watching Sesame Street with me, we also can not watch baseball on TV together.
I was the MTV generation. Somehow, I feel like this is all my fault.
posted by jbenben at 10:01 AM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
About the busy and noisy comment related to TV programming back in the day generally, and sports coverage specifically... BASEBALL IS ALSO UNWATCHABLE TODAY.
I can't believe someone brought this up. So not only is my son missing out on watching Sesame Street with me, we also can not watch baseball on TV together.
I was the MTV generation. Somehow, I feel like this is all my fault.
posted by jbenben at 10:01 AM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a real thing that happened in the Sesame Street canon.
Hmm. Seems to be on youtube.
More recently - Cookie Monster at the Met expressing profundities: "It weird that we cook bacon and bake cookies."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:05 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Hmm. Seems to be on youtube.
More recently - Cookie Monster at the Met expressing profundities: "It weird that we cook bacon and bake cookies."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:05 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
The Household Toddler hasn't taken to Sesame Street yet, but is nonetheless a Grover fan: The Monster at the End of this Book is in moderate rotation as a bedtime story. Now THAT is a classic, the more so for not having Elmo in it.
posted by Quasirandom at 10:14 AM on December 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Quasirandom at 10:14 AM on December 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Big Bird and Snuffy straight up actually meet a dead child and confront a demon. This is a real thing that happened in the Sesame Street canon.
posted by ignignokt at 10:37 AM on December 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
When the demon appears that night, the question is answered correctly and Sahu is sent to Osiris (Fritz Weaver) to have his heart weighed. When the feather to weigh his heart doesn't appear, Big Bird offers one of his to help. But when Sahu's heart is too heavy, Big Bird claims that it wasn't fair since Sahu was on Earth for 40 centuries and he was so alone his heart would be heavy, so he can't become a star.That's a heavy fucking curse to encounter in Sesame Street!
posted by ignignokt at 10:37 AM on December 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would like to help fund sending him an Elmo doll every single day until all there is is a big pile of Elmo dolls in his house and he just stops already.
If you did this I would personally contact the ICC.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:38 AM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you did this I would personally contact the ICC.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:38 AM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd just like to point out to all you jokers making up shit about how "dark" Sesame Street was back in the day that when they did that special where they visit the Metropolitan Museum of Art Big Bird and Snuffy straight up actually meet a dead child and confront a demon. This is a real thing that happened in the Sesame Street canon.
I missed out on Don't Eat the Pictures as a child, but my wife was a big fan, and it's become part of our household's shared vocabulary. Sometimes in museums, I'll gaze longingly at a work of art and start licking my lips while my wife whispers "statue inviting, but NOT for biting" in my ear and other, actual, grownups stare at us.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:22 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
I missed out on Don't Eat the Pictures as a child, but my wife was a big fan, and it's become part of our household's shared vocabulary. Sometimes in museums, I'll gaze longingly at a work of art and start licking my lips while my wife whispers "statue inviting, but NOT for biting" in my ear and other, actual, grownups stare at us.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:22 AM on December 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Anyone whose favorite Muppet is not Grover is just objectively wrong.
posted by holborne at 1:26 PM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by holborne at 1:26 PM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
The last Sesame Street thread was about Mr Hooper's death - I found that profoundly moving.
But... well, I wish I'd never found out about this. Oh, oh, all that merch. The blandness and the overloading level of mindless stimulation.
I don't know why this hits me so hard - I never even saw Sesame Street till I was in my early teens, but I had a sister much younger than I was so we saw a lot of it then, and I'd never seen one Elmo segment before today. But I was hoping that there was just one thing the media meth fairy hadn't dumped all over.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:00 PM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
But... well, I wish I'd never found out about this. Oh, oh, all that merch. The blandness and the overloading level of mindless stimulation.
I don't know why this hits me so hard - I never even saw Sesame Street till I was in my early teens, but I had a sister much younger than I was so we saw a lot of it then, and I'd never seen one Elmo segment before today. But I was hoping that there was just one thing the media meth fairy hadn't dumped all over.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:00 PM on December 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Monster at the End of this Book is in moderate rotation as a bedtime story. Now THAT is a classic, the more so for not having Elmo in it.
. . . don't look up the sequel. Just saying.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:01 PM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
. . . don't look up the sequel. Just saying.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:01 PM on December 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
You know, when I was a youngerster, we used to suss out people by asking "Beatles or Elvis" and "Marvel or DC" and probably "$Sport1 or $Sport2".
I think I'm going to start checking my new friends on "Grover or Elmo" ... goes with "Pluto: planet yes or no".
ack. Now I have the music from West Side Story in my head. *snap* *snap* *snap*
posted by tilde at 5:45 PM on December 7, 2015
I think I'm going to start checking my new friends on "Grover or Elmo" ... goes with "Pluto: planet yes or no".
ack. Now I have the music from West Side Story in my head. *snap* *snap* *snap*
posted by tilde at 5:45 PM on December 7, 2015
My understanding (ugh, I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell thing...) is that because of differences between child and adult psychology, things that make a show just unwatchable for adults (long stretches with no camera changes, 2-d characters) are the same things that make them easier for kids to parse.
Here's a 2002 article from the New York Times on a Sesame Street format change
Adults should think critically about children's TV, but also, with an eye to the fact that the audience has a fundamentally different brain.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:41 AM on December 8, 2015
Here's a 2002 article from the New York Times on a Sesame Street format change
Adults should think critically about children's TV, but also, with an eye to the fact that the audience has a fundamentally different brain.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:41 AM on December 8, 2015
Thanks for the article. A friend of mine posted the Kotaku article on Facebook and asked parents what they were doing. I was surprised to see that some parents were outright banning Sesame Street because they simply hate Elmo, and accusing it of being "dumbed down."
I understand being annoyed by Elmo, but sometimes the things that annoy adults really reach children. Sesame Street is still a quality program that continues to strive to educate children.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:29 PM on December 9, 2015
I understand being annoyed by Elmo, but sometimes the things that annoy adults really reach children. Sesame Street is still a quality program that continues to strive to educate children.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:29 PM on December 9, 2015
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red problem.little bastard.FTFY
posted by jason's_planet at 12:35 PM on December 6, 2015 [3 favorites]