Guys, this angry, hungry bear in our house is a big problem.
December 9, 2015 9:36 AM Subscribe
What If Bears Killed One In Five People? You wouldn't put up with that. So don't put up with this. 1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted by the time they finish college.
Of note:
Of note:
Have you ever been in a house that had something just egregiously wrong with it? Something massively unsafe and uncomfortable and against code, but everyone in the house had been there a long time and was used to it? "Oh yeah, I almost forgot to tell you, there's a missing step on the unlit staircase with no railings. But it's okay because we all just remember to jump over it."
Some people are like that missing stair.
I think there's definitely something to be read into the fact that this may be the only college humor videos to ever have its comments disabled.
posted by mayonnaises at 9:48 AM on December 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by mayonnaises at 9:48 AM on December 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
Ugh. Why are humans so shitty to each other.
We were having a conversation with a friend on vacation who lives in the same city as us, where she was assaulted - fortunately some dude outside the bar across the street saw it and chased her attacker off. Both she and mrs. allkindsoftime were recounting stories of men following them, walking next to them, threatening them, etc.. Other friends of ours have told us the same thing happened to them just walking to the dinner party where they told us about this happening. Endless street harassment, constantly having to walk in fear.
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT. And not for lack of trying - they told me to just listen for it on the streets of the FiDi where I work, and I have been for the last 2 weeks very proactively, and I just haven't run into it. And that doesn't mean I don't believe it's happening. It's just that these assholes must be so calculating in their shitty treatment of women that they are smart enough not to do it within earshot of somebody who might check them on it.
Seriously, fuck those guys. We need to do a better job of educating all young men from a very young age that even verbal communication of this nature - let alone actually touching someone - is not OK.
posted by allkindsoftime at 9:56 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
We were having a conversation with a friend on vacation who lives in the same city as us, where she was assaulted - fortunately some dude outside the bar across the street saw it and chased her attacker off. Both she and mrs. allkindsoftime were recounting stories of men following them, walking next to them, threatening them, etc.. Other friends of ours have told us the same thing happened to them just walking to the dinner party where they told us about this happening. Endless street harassment, constantly having to walk in fear.
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT. And not for lack of trying - they told me to just listen for it on the streets of the FiDi where I work, and I have been for the last 2 weeks very proactively, and I just haven't run into it. And that doesn't mean I don't believe it's happening. It's just that these assholes must be so calculating in their shitty treatment of women that they are smart enough not to do it within earshot of somebody who might check them on it.
Seriously, fuck those guys. We need to do a better job of educating all young men from a very young age that even verbal communication of this nature - let alone actually touching someone - is not OK.
posted by allkindsoftime at 9:56 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT.
Being in a certain part of the culture can require a particular set of skills. For instance, despite the fact that weed is widely available, I have no idea how to get it, and if you told me to “just keep my eyes open” for it, I’d still never see a dealer or know where to find one. Similarly, whenever someone tells me to be on the look-out for men behaving badly - sure! I’m for it! And I know that there are a few conversations I had in years past where I should have spoken up. But as a general rule, I don’t end up in situations where people engage in open harassment. This limits my effectiveness.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on December 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Being in a certain part of the culture can require a particular set of skills. For instance, despite the fact that weed is widely available, I have no idea how to get it, and if you told me to “just keep my eyes open” for it, I’d still never see a dealer or know where to find one. Similarly, whenever someone tells me to be on the look-out for men behaving badly - sure! I’m for it! And I know that there are a few conversations I had in years past where I should have spoken up. But as a general rule, I don’t end up in situations where people engage in open harassment. This limits my effectiveness.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on December 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT. And not for lack of trying - they told me to just listen for it on the streets of the FiDi where I work, and I have been for the last 2 weeks very proactively, and I just haven't run into it. And that doesn't mean I don't believe it's happening. It's just that these assholes must be so calculating in their shitty treatment of women that they are smart enough not to do it within earshot of somebody who might check them on it.
yep, that's exactly it. Most of the catcalling I've gotten has been low enough volume that only I heard it. I also find that if I turn around and say "sorry, would you mind repeating that?" in a loud enough voice, and make sure I stand far enough away that they have to speak up, they often don't comply, especially if other people turn around to watch.
Why, it's almost like they know on some level that it's a shitty thing to do and they don't want to get caught.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:21 AM on December 9, 2015 [47 favorites]
yep, that's exactly it. Most of the catcalling I've gotten has been low enough volume that only I heard it. I also find that if I turn around and say "sorry, would you mind repeating that?" in a loud enough voice, and make sure I stand far enough away that they have to speak up, they often don't comply, especially if other people turn around to watch.
Why, it's almost like they know on some level that it's a shitty thing to do and they don't want to get caught.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:21 AM on December 9, 2015 [47 favorites]
Most harassers are really good at the "low muttering as they walk past you" gambit, allkindsoftime, so it would be impossible to hear unless you were the woman or right next to her. Thus the hidden-camera video earlier this year following a woman around NYC while she got harassed by scummy dudes that was so surprising to a lot of guys.
I have definitely been "saved" from harassing comments because I can't hear low muttering very well at all, so I see the skeevy looks and hear "mumblemumble" but can't quite make out what they're saying. Which is just as well.
Also, you don't have to have a lot of dudes be like this to cause a problem, just that the ones that are do it a lot. And they definitely tend to do it when other guys aren't around.
If I walked out enough to encounter this stuff regularly, I'd be tempted to just wear a hidden camera at all times.
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have definitely been "saved" from harassing comments because I can't hear low muttering very well at all, so I see the skeevy looks and hear "mumblemumble" but can't quite make out what they're saying. Which is just as well.
Also, you don't have to have a lot of dudes be like this to cause a problem, just that the ones that are do it a lot. And they definitely tend to do it when other guys aren't around.
If I walked out enough to encounter this stuff regularly, I'd be tempted to just wear a hidden camera at all times.
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even those people who pretend to be "just having fun" or "following their natural instincts" because "that girl was asking for it" are actually very discreet. Obviously, that indicates that they do know it is wrong.
posted by mumimor at 10:24 AM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 10:24 AM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT.
It's interesting that you're talking about street harassment when the video is about sexual assault. The grand majority of sexual assaults (particularly in college) are committed by someone the victim knows. Although it probably happened in private, you know guys who have done this. You are probably friends with at least one guy who has done this. Please read the second link--your female friends could no doubt tell you which guy it is, and if they haven't or won't consider some of the reasons they might have.
posted by kelseyq at 10:32 AM on December 9, 2015 [28 favorites]
It's interesting that you're talking about street harassment when the video is about sexual assault. The grand majority of sexual assaults (particularly in college) are committed by someone the victim knows. Although it probably happened in private, you know guys who have done this. You are probably friends with at least one guy who has done this. Please read the second link--your female friends could no doubt tell you which guy it is, and if they haven't or won't consider some of the reasons they might have.
posted by kelseyq at 10:32 AM on December 9, 2015 [28 favorites]
Also, the lesser known 1 in 6 statistic - https://1in6.org/the-1-in-6-statistic/
posted by enamon at 11:05 AM on December 9, 2015
posted by enamon at 11:05 AM on December 9, 2015
allkindsoftime: " I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT."
I saw it this morning. I was walking my kids into school (one of them must be hand-delivered to another responsible adult or he has a tendency to wander off and not tell anyone where he went) and I saw a group of 12/13-year-old boys who had surrounded a 12/13-year-old girl and were shouting at her, taunting and calling names, and the ringleader was hitting her. She kept trying to retreat and they kept hemming her in so she couldn't. I saw other parents walk past, just assuming it was kids horsing around -- which, it usually is, although when I feel they've crossed a line I give them a mom stare or say "Hey, language," which other parents don't seem to do, and they usually cut it out. (Because as you all know I am an incurable busybody.) I paused for a second to watch and saw the ringleader hit at her a couple more times, and she kept trying to retreat and looked really scared, and they kept hemming her in and calling her names and jeering at her. So I walked over closer and said, in my most mom-ish voice, "Hey, that is inappropriate behavior, cut it out, now!" The ringleader looked at me and went right back to taunting the girl, so I waded into their little circle of assholes (oh, please, take a swing at a 37-year-old woman with her kids in tow, I dare you), said, "C'mon, let's go find a teacher and get you away from these guys," and when she nodded I put my arm around her, and brought her out from there using my body to shield her from them, because THEY DID NOT STOP until I physically removed her.
We got her to a couple of teachers whom I know to be good people, and I stuck around long enough to describe the ringleader and to make very clear that she had attempted to retreat several times and they were not letting her, and that the one kid was trying to hit her. She did name names, thank goodness, and some of the stuff she was saying they had said from before I arrived was just horrifying. She seemed really relieved that I was there to corroborate her story, she kept saying what the one kid did and then appealing to me, "She saw it." Which makes me think that if/when she (or her friends) have reported similar things in the past, they've been brushed off as just kids messing with each other, or normal horseplay, or boys being boys. But she wasn't going to be believed without a fully-grown adult who witnessed the incident.
These boys picked a spot where no SCHOOL personnel would see them, and all the parents (and other kids) were just walking by and assuming it was just horseplay or none of their business. (I'm sure some of the kids walking by were exercising self-preservation skills by deciding NOT TO GET INVOLVED for which I do not blame them as they are children, although they could use some more highly-developed tattling skills.) I am sure you have walked past similar situations and done the same thing -- oh, they're just goofing around. Oh, it's not my business. Oh, I don't have time to stop.
(I was talking about it on social media this morning because it left me a little shook up afterwards, I think just because it reminded me so vividly of being an adolescent girl at the mercy of adolescent boys.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:10 AM on December 9, 2015 [91 favorites]
I saw it this morning. I was walking my kids into school (one of them must be hand-delivered to another responsible adult or he has a tendency to wander off and not tell anyone where he went) and I saw a group of 12/13-year-old boys who had surrounded a 12/13-year-old girl and were shouting at her, taunting and calling names, and the ringleader was hitting her. She kept trying to retreat and they kept hemming her in so she couldn't. I saw other parents walk past, just assuming it was kids horsing around -- which, it usually is, although when I feel they've crossed a line I give them a mom stare or say "Hey, language," which other parents don't seem to do, and they usually cut it out. (Because as you all know I am an incurable busybody.) I paused for a second to watch and saw the ringleader hit at her a couple more times, and she kept trying to retreat and looked really scared, and they kept hemming her in and calling her names and jeering at her. So I walked over closer and said, in my most mom-ish voice, "Hey, that is inappropriate behavior, cut it out, now!" The ringleader looked at me and went right back to taunting the girl, so I waded into their little circle of assholes (oh, please, take a swing at a 37-year-old woman with her kids in tow, I dare you), said, "C'mon, let's go find a teacher and get you away from these guys," and when she nodded I put my arm around her, and brought her out from there using my body to shield her from them, because THEY DID NOT STOP until I physically removed her.
We got her to a couple of teachers whom I know to be good people, and I stuck around long enough to describe the ringleader and to make very clear that she had attempted to retreat several times and they were not letting her, and that the one kid was trying to hit her. She did name names, thank goodness, and some of the stuff she was saying they had said from before I arrived was just horrifying. She seemed really relieved that I was there to corroborate her story, she kept saying what the one kid did and then appealing to me, "She saw it." Which makes me think that if/when she (or her friends) have reported similar things in the past, they've been brushed off as just kids messing with each other, or normal horseplay, or boys being boys. But she wasn't going to be believed without a fully-grown adult who witnessed the incident.
These boys picked a spot where no SCHOOL personnel would see them, and all the parents (and other kids) were just walking by and assuming it was just horseplay or none of their business. (I'm sure some of the kids walking by were exercising self-preservation skills by deciding NOT TO GET INVOLVED for which I do not blame them as they are children, although they could use some more highly-developed tattling skills.) I am sure you have walked past similar situations and done the same thing -- oh, they're just goofing around. Oh, it's not my business. Oh, I don't have time to stop.
(I was talking about it on social media this morning because it left me a little shook up afterwards, I think just because it reminded me so vividly of being an adolescent girl at the mercy of adolescent boys.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:10 AM on December 9, 2015 [91 favorites]
This would have been better if the main guy had just been like, "Bear, what bear? I mean, I've heard people talk about bears, but I've never seen one. I'm sure they're not as common as people say they are." Because that's the main hurdle here. It's not that people see the 1-in-5 statistic and think "meh, that's fine." They see it and think it's a lie.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on December 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on December 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee, I really hope the school does something about this. I only knew my daughter was bullied years after she had changed to another school. She told me that when she reported the many incidents, they teachers just brushed it off as "normal boy behaviour". Probably influenced by the fact that the ring-leader's mother was the very sympathetic school board member who no-one could imagine had such a bully for a son.
posted by mumimor at 11:29 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 11:29 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like this video a lot for contrasting the attitude even people have when they do believe the 1-in-5 statistic - which is usually "well, it won't happen to me or someone I know because reasons, that happens to other people" instead of "HOLY SHIT IT COULD BE ANY OF US WE NEED TO END THIS."
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:36 AM on December 9, 2015
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:36 AM on December 9, 2015
mumimor: "Eyebrows McGee, I really hope the school does something about this. I only knew my daughter was bullied years after she had changed to another school. She told me that when she reported the many incidents, they teachers just brushed it off as "normal boy behaviour". Probably influenced by the fact that the ring-leader's mother was the very sympathetic school board member who no-one could imagine had such a bully for a son."
I specifically grabbed a staff person who I know is good with this kind of issue and takes it seriously (and is really good with the kids), and he roped in the assistant principal immediately, who I don't know well but also seemed to be taking the situation seriously. Plus, I am the former school board member who literally wrote the bullying policy, so hopefully that also encourages them to take it seriously! I'm going to follow up with the teacher tonight or tomorrow morning (I don't always seem him at pick-up) and make sure the girl was okay, she was pretty upset. And incidentally telegraph that I am concerned about this issue being resolved.
But yeah, nothing grooms little boys to grow up to be predators like being told their asshole behavior is just "boys being boys!" and having all adults in positions of authority ignore it and brush off complaints about it. I know exactly where a lot of these men learn they can harass and assault women with impunity, and it's the YEARS OF PRACTICE they get being schoolyard bullies whose offenses never get taken seriously.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:39 AM on December 9, 2015 [39 favorites]
I specifically grabbed a staff person who I know is good with this kind of issue and takes it seriously (and is really good with the kids), and he roped in the assistant principal immediately, who I don't know well but also seemed to be taking the situation seriously. Plus, I am the former school board member who literally wrote the bullying policy, so hopefully that also encourages them to take it seriously! I'm going to follow up with the teacher tonight or tomorrow morning (I don't always seem him at pick-up) and make sure the girl was okay, she was pretty upset. And incidentally telegraph that I am concerned about this issue being resolved.
But yeah, nothing grooms little boys to grow up to be predators like being told their asshole behavior is just "boys being boys!" and having all adults in positions of authority ignore it and brush off complaints about it. I know exactly where a lot of these men learn they can harass and assault women with impunity, and it's the YEARS OF PRACTICE they get being schoolyard bullies whose offenses never get taken seriously.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:39 AM on December 9, 2015 [39 favorites]
The fact that there is another man in a position to observe abusive behavior (and possibly do something about it) can have the same effect as on a quantum particle -- the act of observation makes it cease to exist.
I've had a man slam my head into the doorframe, hard, as he was leaving behind a group of his friends, simultaneously calling out "Bye!" in a friendly way so it sounded as if he were just behaving normally. I've had men push me out of their way if I were dancing in a spot they wanted. I've had strangers shove ice down the front or back of my shirt. I've had a few men on the train using large suitcases held against their chests as cover while their fingers tried to probe my crotch beneath it. I've stood against the wall at parties and had strange men walk by and grab my breasts and twist them (gently or otherwise.) I've had male acquaintances whisper nasty vile shit in my ear while giving me "a friendly hug." Many many things like this. And no, I don't live in a barn -- I went to a top ranked college and had a prestigious professional career.
And in each case, the perpetrator has gone to great lengths to preserve plausible deniability -- "Oh, sorry, I just bumped you!" "What are you talking about?! Are you crazy?" "It was just a joke!" "She's just looking for attention, crazy bitch!"
There's no winning when shit like that happens. You either
a) take it and shut up and don't ruin everyone else's time, or
b) make a big fuss, get called out as a troublemaker and/or liar, get possibly yelled at or pushed around, make everyone else uncomfortable, and get a reputation as a bitch. It's not worth it, far too much of the time.
posted by jfwlucy at 11:42 AM on December 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
I've had a man slam my head into the doorframe, hard, as he was leaving behind a group of his friends, simultaneously calling out "Bye!" in a friendly way so it sounded as if he were just behaving normally. I've had men push me out of their way if I were dancing in a spot they wanted. I've had strangers shove ice down the front or back of my shirt. I've had a few men on the train using large suitcases held against their chests as cover while their fingers tried to probe my crotch beneath it. I've stood against the wall at parties and had strange men walk by and grab my breasts and twist them (gently or otherwise.) I've had male acquaintances whisper nasty vile shit in my ear while giving me "a friendly hug." Many many things like this. And no, I don't live in a barn -- I went to a top ranked college and had a prestigious professional career.
And in each case, the perpetrator has gone to great lengths to preserve plausible deniability -- "Oh, sorry, I just bumped you!" "What are you talking about?! Are you crazy?" "It was just a joke!" "She's just looking for attention, crazy bitch!"
There's no winning when shit like that happens. You either
a) take it and shut up and don't ruin everyone else's time, or
b) make a big fuss, get called out as a troublemaker and/or liar, get possibly yelled at or pushed around, make everyone else uncomfortable, and get a reputation as a bitch. It's not worth it, far too much of the time.
posted by jfwlucy at 11:42 AM on December 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
I've been sharing this link around a bit in the month or two since I first saw it. The struggle I come up against so much is that guys say "I don't hang out with guys who do that" Or "I'd never hang out with a guy if I found out he acted this way." The bear is a hard metaphor for me because the bear doesn't look like a regular dude. Rapists look like regular dudes.
I'd change the video so that the bear starts out as just a regular dude on the couch with the dudes and there isn't a door between them. Also, one of the guys gets up, goes into the kitchen to grab some Libations (I typed beer, but that looks too much like bear) and the bear has turned back into a dude and one of the dudes tries to confide "Jim turned into a bear and tried to eat Jack!" And then Libations Dude is all like "nah, I've heard of guys who turn into bears, but Jim is such a nice guy! I work with Jim! He put a good word in for me for that promotion six months ago. He'd never try to eat my best friend!" Libations Dude could even more convincingly ask "Are you upset that Jim didn't like your bean dip last week? Are you making these accusations to try to get attention? Did someobody in the room slather themselves in bacon and then get real close to Jim? Cause that sometimes makes guys hungry, you know, bacon. Guys like bacon. A guy who was tempted by bacon might seem like a bear, but trust me. Jim isn't actually a bear." Then for funzies, the camera could pan to Jack and Libations Dude could ask in a super condescending tone "Hey Jack, you know Jim would never eat you, right? You know he was just playing around, right?" Jack's shirt sleeve is torn and his nachos are spilled all over the couch. Jack nods and stares blankly into space....
The alternate universe where Jack tries to convince Libations Dude that the bear actually did try to eat him....I could write that. But I need to get through the rest of the day in one piece.
I'm telling you (as I have been for years here) These guys look just like you. The rapists, the harassers. They don't wear bear patches, or Scarlet R embroidery. Some of them tell rape jokes. Some of them will admit to using alcohol or threat of force to get a woman to have sex with them (as long as you don't call those "methods" rape.)
So I'm continuing to ask you:
Tell every boy and man you know that this shit is not ok. Ask why rape jokes are funny.
Tell every girl and woman you know that if they confide in you, their words will be heard.
posted by bilabial at 11:45 AM on December 9, 2015 [46 favorites]
I'd change the video so that the bear starts out as just a regular dude on the couch with the dudes and there isn't a door between them. Also, one of the guys gets up, goes into the kitchen to grab some Libations (I typed beer, but that looks too much like bear) and the bear has turned back into a dude and one of the dudes tries to confide "Jim turned into a bear and tried to eat Jack!" And then Libations Dude is all like "nah, I've heard of guys who turn into bears, but Jim is such a nice guy! I work with Jim! He put a good word in for me for that promotion six months ago. He'd never try to eat my best friend!" Libations Dude could even more convincingly ask "Are you upset that Jim didn't like your bean dip last week? Are you making these accusations to try to get attention? Did someobody in the room slather themselves in bacon and then get real close to Jim? Cause that sometimes makes guys hungry, you know, bacon. Guys like bacon. A guy who was tempted by bacon might seem like a bear, but trust me. Jim isn't actually a bear." Then for funzies, the camera could pan to Jack and Libations Dude could ask in a super condescending tone "Hey Jack, you know Jim would never eat you, right? You know he was just playing around, right?" Jack's shirt sleeve is torn and his nachos are spilled all over the couch. Jack nods and stares blankly into space....
The alternate universe where Jack tries to convince Libations Dude that the bear actually did try to eat him....I could write that. But I need to get through the rest of the day in one piece.
I'm telling you (as I have been for years here) These guys look just like you. The rapists, the harassers. They don't wear bear patches, or Scarlet R embroidery. Some of them tell rape jokes. Some of them will admit to using alcohol or threat of force to get a woman to have sex with them (as long as you don't call those "methods" rape.)
So I'm continuing to ask you:
Tell every boy and man you know that this shit is not ok. Ask why rape jokes are funny.
Tell every girl and woman you know that if they confide in you, their words will be heard.
posted by bilabial at 11:45 AM on December 9, 2015 [46 favorites]
I know exactly where a lot of these men learn they can harass and assault women with impunity, and it's the YEARS OF PRACTICE they get being schoolyard bullies whose offenses never get taken seriously.
I think this is true and something I was told (and I know other friends who got this message too) was "He's doing it because he likes you" or "He only acts that way because he has a crush on you" which tells female children and adolescents that male approval is more important than their feelings or comfort and that any way men want to treat them is okay as long as it's because they "like" you. It's horrifying.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:47 AM on December 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
I think this is true and something I was told (and I know other friends who got this message too) was "He's doing it because he likes you" or "He only acts that way because he has a crush on you" which tells female children and adolescents that male approval is more important than their feelings or comfort and that any way men want to treat them is okay as long as it's because they "like" you. It's horrifying.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:47 AM on December 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
allkindsoftime: " I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT."
A friend just had an incident where some business-suited, middle-aged man was leering at her nine year old daughter--slowly licking his lips at her and winking--while they were buying drinks in a coffee shop. She told her mom after they left the store, mortified and on the verge of tears. My friend DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING. When she went back inside to confront the man, he totally denied it. So she went back outside to her daughter, reconfirmed the details, went back in and in a loud voice repeated them to him and the staff. This time he looked embarrassed and apologized, as did his friend, no more denials.
A grown man can harass a child who is standing by her mother's side without the mother noticing--that's how insidious this is. Never mind what happens behind closed doors when a woman is with someone she thought she could trust.
posted by looli at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
A friend just had an incident where some business-suited, middle-aged man was leering at her nine year old daughter--slowly licking his lips at her and winking--while they were buying drinks in a coffee shop. She told her mom after they left the store, mortified and on the verge of tears. My friend DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING. When she went back inside to confront the man, he totally denied it. So she went back outside to her daughter, reconfirmed the details, went back in and in a loud voice repeated them to him and the staff. This time he looked embarrassed and apologized, as did his friend, no more denials.
A grown man can harass a child who is standing by her mother's side without the mother noticing--that's how insidious this is. Never mind what happens behind closed doors when a woman is with someone she thought she could trust.
posted by looli at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
48 Things Women Hear in a Lifetime (That Men Just Don't)
"He's doing it because he likes you" is in there.
posted by emjaybee at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
"He's doing it because he likes you" is in there.
posted by emjaybee at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT.
I was once at an airport security checkpoint with my husband, and in front of us in the queue was a 30-something guy dressed in neat business attire. Before the guy walked through the body scanner, he leaned over the conveyor belt and said to the security guard - who was a woman - in a low voice: "Nice tits." And then he disappeared.
It was so unexpected and over in a second, I just turned to Mr sively all "WTF did we just see?" And he hadn't noticed a thing, despite standing there right next to me. He's a good guy and was shocked to hear about it, though. And you know - it could've been just a coincidence, but still, I'm reminded of that situation every time there's talk about men not seeing this shit. I'm sure many, probably even most creeps are indeed sneaky. But I think there's also possibly an element of not paying attention to certain things, or misinterpreting them, or...?
This would have been better if the main guy had just been like, "Bear, what bear? I mean, I've heard people talk about bears, but I've never seen one. I'm sure they're not as common as people say they are." Because that's the main hurdle here. It's not that people see the 1-in-5 statistic and think "meh, that's fine." They see it and think it's a lie.
Or someone should've walked in having been mauled to pulp by a bear, and the denial guy should've been like "Nah, I heard that's not how the bear said it happened at all... So it's just he-said-bear-said..."
posted by sively at 11:59 AM on December 9, 2015
I was once at an airport security checkpoint with my husband, and in front of us in the queue was a 30-something guy dressed in neat business attire. Before the guy walked through the body scanner, he leaned over the conveyor belt and said to the security guard - who was a woman - in a low voice: "Nice tits." And then he disappeared.
It was so unexpected and over in a second, I just turned to Mr sively all "WTF did we just see?" And he hadn't noticed a thing, despite standing there right next to me. He's a good guy and was shocked to hear about it, though. And you know - it could've been just a coincidence, but still, I'm reminded of that situation every time there's talk about men not seeing this shit. I'm sure many, probably even most creeps are indeed sneaky. But I think there's also possibly an element of not paying attention to certain things, or misinterpreting them, or...?
This would have been better if the main guy had just been like, "Bear, what bear? I mean, I've heard people talk about bears, but I've never seen one. I'm sure they're not as common as people say they are." Because that's the main hurdle here. It's not that people see the 1-in-5 statistic and think "meh, that's fine." They see it and think it's a lie.
Or someone should've walked in having been mauled to pulp by a bear, and the denial guy should've been like "Nah, I heard that's not how the bear said it happened at all... So it's just he-said-bear-said..."
posted by sively at 11:59 AM on December 9, 2015
It's not often that something makes me actually laugh and cry, but this did. Thank you so much for posting this; if you'll excuse me now, I have to go share this with everyone I can think of...
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 12:30 PM on December 9, 2015
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 12:30 PM on December 9, 2015
Where the fuck are these dudes when I'm around? I swear, these shitty types of humans must be at least 1 in 5 if not more of my half of the race, and yet - as I shared in near disbelief with our friends, I NEVER NOTICE, SEE, OR OVERHEAR IT.
See, here's the thing. One of my friends is deathly allergic to onion-family products. Chives, onion powder, you name it. And when I say allergic, I mean "anaphylactic shock" sort of allergic.
As a consequence, this woman can spot an onion-ish item on a food package's list of ingredients at fifty paces. Prior to knowing her, I had no idea how much onion stuff is in everyday foods. I'm allowed that ignorance because I won't die if I eat any. My friend, on the other hand, is philosophically opposed to her own death, and thus had to develop that skill in order to survive.
Women are in much the same boat*. Men don't see it, because their well-being and their lives don't depend on being able to see it. But women don't have the luxury of being that ignorant. We're constantly on the lookout for the sort of misogynistic behavior that can lead to one being sexually assaulted or worse. Consequently, we see it more often.
And I for one hypothesize that some of these harassers know we're watching for it, and so take advantage of our hyper-vigilance to slide their nasty comments into our field of attention.
Oh, and to elucidate further, allow me to link to one of the greatest comments ever posted over at Captain Awkward. I highly suggest you read the entire thing (CTRL-F for Dr. Glass to find it quickly):
> ...“I really feel bad about that, actually,” Dr Glass said. He hadn’t really wanted to humiliate the younger man {referred to as Awkward Dude in this comment] in front of everybody, especially since his only crime had been really inept flirting. Was it really Dr Glass’s place to speak for Luminous? Perhaps he’d made a big deal out of nothing...
>
> ...“OH MY GOD,” I replied, “WHY DIDN’T YOU DO MORE? WHAT A FUCKING CREEPER!”
>
> ...Well, Dr Glass wanted to assume good intentions on everyone’s part... But he still felt oddly uncomfortable about it all, as if there was something there to regret, like he was missing a piece of the puzzle.
>
> And then I asked The Question. And after I asked The Question, his face changed. He looked sick. “I didn’t think of that.” After The Question, he wished he’d been more explicit – gone to the course director. Been there more for Luminous. The good intentions that he wanted to assume, the passes he was willing to give the other man, evaporated, completely. They had evaporated for me, halfway through the story.
>
> When I tell this story to women, they spot The Question right away. The men don’t; they think that Dr Glass behaved like a gentleman, neither doing too much nor too little. They are feminist men, and good people. They have read “The Gift of Fear” and they talk about privilege and the patriarchy, and they don’t spot it.
>
> The Question is this: Why Was Awkward Dude Waiting For Her In The Dark?
>
> ...That was what had been bothering Dr Glass. He wasn’t wearing the Goggles of Feminine Intuition, but he picked up on the signals that something wasn’t right. Seeing the Question doesn’t make you paranoid – it means your instincts are working.
I don't know how to tell you to develop that hyper-vigilance. Women devote a lot of head-space to it, so you may find it exhausting to maintain (IME most women do). But if you try, you might start to see what we see every day.
* As are ethnic minorities. For black people in the US, just to give an example, failure to be hyper-vigilant to and adjust for someone's racism can literally result in death. And even if you recognize/adjust for it, you still might die. It's a lose-lose.
posted by magstheaxe at 12:53 PM on December 9, 2015 [25 favorites]
See, here's the thing. One of my friends is deathly allergic to onion-family products. Chives, onion powder, you name it. And when I say allergic, I mean "anaphylactic shock" sort of allergic.
As a consequence, this woman can spot an onion-ish item on a food package's list of ingredients at fifty paces. Prior to knowing her, I had no idea how much onion stuff is in everyday foods. I'm allowed that ignorance because I won't die if I eat any. My friend, on the other hand, is philosophically opposed to her own death, and thus had to develop that skill in order to survive.
Women are in much the same boat*. Men don't see it, because their well-being and their lives don't depend on being able to see it. But women don't have the luxury of being that ignorant. We're constantly on the lookout for the sort of misogynistic behavior that can lead to one being sexually assaulted or worse. Consequently, we see it more often.
And I for one hypothesize that some of these harassers know we're watching for it, and so take advantage of our hyper-vigilance to slide their nasty comments into our field of attention.
Oh, and to elucidate further, allow me to link to one of the greatest comments ever posted over at Captain Awkward. I highly suggest you read the entire thing (CTRL-F for Dr. Glass to find it quickly):
> ...“I really feel bad about that, actually,” Dr Glass said. He hadn’t really wanted to humiliate the younger man {referred to as Awkward Dude in this comment] in front of everybody, especially since his only crime had been really inept flirting. Was it really Dr Glass’s place to speak for Luminous? Perhaps he’d made a big deal out of nothing...
>
> ...“OH MY GOD,” I replied, “WHY DIDN’T YOU DO MORE? WHAT A FUCKING CREEPER!”
>
> ...Well, Dr Glass wanted to assume good intentions on everyone’s part... But he still felt oddly uncomfortable about it all, as if there was something there to regret, like he was missing a piece of the puzzle.
>
> And then I asked The Question. And after I asked The Question, his face changed. He looked sick. “I didn’t think of that.” After The Question, he wished he’d been more explicit – gone to the course director. Been there more for Luminous. The good intentions that he wanted to assume, the passes he was willing to give the other man, evaporated, completely. They had evaporated for me, halfway through the story.
>
> When I tell this story to women, they spot The Question right away. The men don’t; they think that Dr Glass behaved like a gentleman, neither doing too much nor too little. They are feminist men, and good people. They have read “The Gift of Fear” and they talk about privilege and the patriarchy, and they don’t spot it.
>
> The Question is this: Why Was Awkward Dude Waiting For Her In The Dark?
>
> ...That was what had been bothering Dr Glass. He wasn’t wearing the Goggles of Feminine Intuition, but he picked up on the signals that something wasn’t right. Seeing the Question doesn’t make you paranoid – it means your instincts are working.
I don't know how to tell you to develop that hyper-vigilance. Women devote a lot of head-space to it, so you may find it exhausting to maintain (IME most women do). But if you try, you might start to see what we see every day.
* As are ethnic minorities. For black people in the US, just to give an example, failure to be hyper-vigilant to and adjust for someone's racism can literally result in death. And even if you recognize/adjust for it, you still might die. It's a lose-lose.
posted by magstheaxe at 12:53 PM on December 9, 2015 [25 favorites]
Men don't see it, because their well-being and their lives don't depend on being able to see it. But women don't have the luxury of being that ignorant. We're constantly on the lookout for the sort of misogynistic behavior that can lead to one being sexually assaulted or worse. Consequently, we see it more often.
This is it exactly. My eyes were opened to it once when my partner and I were in a strange town, looking for an ATM, just after dark. He didn't notice the group of local we're-so-tough teenagers eyeing us off and muttering at all, because he was so busy staring at the maps app on his phone. I notice it constantly now, that he tends to be oblivious to what's going on around him because he's not used to checking his surroundings in the same way.
The other thing I've noticed, for myself and other women, is that often blokes will walk a little ahead of their partner or the women in their group, for whatever reason (whether because the women are wearing heels or less comfy shoes, or the men can stride on boldly without checking for threat, or something totally unrelated like that they have different preferred speeds) and the leerers and mutterers see this as a prime opportunity to step in, quietly slide their ugliness under the woman's consciousness, and probably feel as if they've scored one up on another man as well.
posted by andraste at 1:55 PM on December 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is it exactly. My eyes were opened to it once when my partner and I were in a strange town, looking for an ATM, just after dark. He didn't notice the group of local we're-so-tough teenagers eyeing us off and muttering at all, because he was so busy staring at the maps app on his phone. I notice it constantly now, that he tends to be oblivious to what's going on around him because he's not used to checking his surroundings in the same way.
The other thing I've noticed, for myself and other women, is that often blokes will walk a little ahead of their partner or the women in their group, for whatever reason (whether because the women are wearing heels or less comfy shoes, or the men can stride on boldly without checking for threat, or something totally unrelated like that they have different preferred speeds) and the leerers and mutterers see this as a prime opportunity to step in, quietly slide their ugliness under the woman's consciousness, and probably feel as if they've scored one up on another man as well.
posted by andraste at 1:55 PM on December 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's no wonder anxiety and depression affect women so much more than men - if you're constantly checking that everything is safe it won't be very long before you have a complex about safety and hazard.
posted by fiercekitten at 2:46 PM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 2:46 PM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
A few weeks ago my daughter started crying as she was getting ready for bed. Those big choking tears. So I gathered her up, laying on the floor, and asked her if she could tell me what was wrong.
"I hurt a little kid today" (note: little kid is a maximum of 12 months younger, but they are very careful at her school to ensure the youngest ones are protected)
"oh no, what happened?" I say, wondering how it is my child did this
"we were playing skipping but I can't do it right" this is all with huge pauses to sob and choke and cough and cry "and so he was hitting me in the shins with the rope and he wouldn't stop and I asked him to mama I asked him and asked him and he wouldn't and I said 'would you like it if I did that to you?'* and he said yes but when I went to hit him I got him in the mouth by accident and he cried and cried and I said sorry but he went to the teacher anyway and I'm sorry I hit a little kid"
I'm laying here rubbing her back, a little bit confused. "what did the teacher say?"
(enormous sniffles, some more choking) "that we needed to be more careful"
"what will happen tomorrow do you think?"
"I'm not gonna play with him he's mean and he tries to kiss me sometimes and I don't like him mama and he does the wrong thing"
"why do you play with him?"
"he's Cousin's friend**"
"you don't need to be friends with Cousin's friend, you can make your own friends sweetie, because that kid is a total jerk and it's okay to say you won't play with him"
She dissolves into tears again. I keep rubbing her back, and I continue.
"I am so glad you told me honey and we love you. Maybe next time walk away if someone is being a jerk like that, I'm sorry you accidentally hurt him and feel bad."
She eventually calms and I put her in bed.
In the morning I see that a full third of her shins are covered in blue bruising with burst blood vessels a bright red at the centre. How long was this kid smacking her in the shins? What made him do that? I am glad she stood up for herself, and hit him, but I wish we taught little boys more compassion for others instead of pretending 'tough' is synonymous with hurting others and being hurt back as if that is friendship. I wish we taught little girls that they can choose who they are companions with instead of insisting that everyone should be friends (just ignore the bear, right?). I wish as adults we would realise that physical aggression is NOT the same as rough-housing, that hurting someone else is a bad thing.
I'm tired of seeing so much of this being played out on a child who still believes she could grow up to be an alicorn. I'm tired of seeing what this is in the future, all these assholes who will try and hurt her because she values compassion and they can't even see her humanity. I'm tired of being the only one that is worried by how vicious and cruel some of the kids we know are, and the only one acting to protect her, because everyone else thinks 'boys are boys' and makes fun of both my gentleness/aversion to physical violence in play, and my feminism. I'm just complaining too, we both need to harden up (yet god forbid we actually smack an aggressor back, then suddenly compassion is the rule).
* Crystallising why I am not a fan of this as a disciplinary question - it isn't about retaliation, it's about kindness and meeting people where they are
** At this point I realise this is also the kid who slapped me on the ass at pick up - he is five.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:24 PM on December 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
"I hurt a little kid today" (note: little kid is a maximum of 12 months younger, but they are very careful at her school to ensure the youngest ones are protected)
"oh no, what happened?" I say, wondering how it is my child did this
"we were playing skipping but I can't do it right" this is all with huge pauses to sob and choke and cough and cry "and so he was hitting me in the shins with the rope and he wouldn't stop and I asked him to mama I asked him and asked him and he wouldn't and I said 'would you like it if I did that to you?'* and he said yes but when I went to hit him I got him in the mouth by accident and he cried and cried and I said sorry but he went to the teacher anyway and I'm sorry I hit a little kid"
I'm laying here rubbing her back, a little bit confused. "what did the teacher say?"
(enormous sniffles, some more choking) "that we needed to be more careful"
"what will happen tomorrow do you think?"
"I'm not gonna play with him he's mean and he tries to kiss me sometimes and I don't like him mama and he does the wrong thing"
"why do you play with him?"
"he's Cousin's friend**"
"you don't need to be friends with Cousin's friend, you can make your own friends sweetie, because that kid is a total jerk and it's okay to say you won't play with him"
She dissolves into tears again. I keep rubbing her back, and I continue.
"I am so glad you told me honey and we love you. Maybe next time walk away if someone is being a jerk like that, I'm sorry you accidentally hurt him and feel bad."
She eventually calms and I put her in bed.
In the morning I see that a full third of her shins are covered in blue bruising with burst blood vessels a bright red at the centre. How long was this kid smacking her in the shins? What made him do that? I am glad she stood up for herself, and hit him, but I wish we taught little boys more compassion for others instead of pretending 'tough' is synonymous with hurting others and being hurt back as if that is friendship. I wish we taught little girls that they can choose who they are companions with instead of insisting that everyone should be friends (just ignore the bear, right?). I wish as adults we would realise that physical aggression is NOT the same as rough-housing, that hurting someone else is a bad thing.
I'm tired of seeing so much of this being played out on a child who still believes she could grow up to be an alicorn. I'm tired of seeing what this is in the future, all these assholes who will try and hurt her because she values compassion and they can't even see her humanity. I'm tired of being the only one that is worried by how vicious and cruel some of the kids we know are, and the only one acting to protect her, because everyone else thinks 'boys are boys' and makes fun of both my gentleness/aversion to physical violence in play, and my feminism. I'm just complaining too, we both need to harden up (yet god forbid we actually smack an aggressor back, then suddenly compassion is the rule).
* Crystallising why I am not a fan of this as a disciplinary question - it isn't about retaliation, it's about kindness and meeting people where they are
** At this point I realise this is also the kid who slapped me on the ass at pick up - he is five.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:24 PM on December 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
and when she nodded I put my arm around her, and brought her out from there using my body to shield her from them, because THEY DID NOT STOP until I physically removed her.
You are my hero for literally stepping in and helping her. I guarantee she will remember this moment her entire life, whether or not the school does anything to stop the bullies.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 PM on December 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
You are my hero for literally stepping in and helping her. I guarantee she will remember this moment her entire life, whether or not the school does anything to stop the bullies.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 PM on December 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
geek anachronism -- Wow, that kid is modeling that behavior from somewhere and it's really concerning. An ass slapping, kissing five year old kid who beats a playmate with rope?!?! Maybe a social services visit is in order. There could very well be abuse in his home.
posted by LadyJuggernaut at 7:06 PM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LadyJuggernaut at 7:06 PM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
"He's doing it because he likes you" is in there.
I've heard this myself after being bullied by a girl, but it's important to note that I was five. It's not impossible that this is just one of the things kids do if they're not trained out of it. Which is both depressing and hopeful. Depressing, since we're not training boys out of this - but hopeful, since I'm pretty certain that at least we can.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:33 PM on December 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard this myself after being bullied by a girl, but it's important to note that I was five. It's not impossible that this is just one of the things kids do if they're not trained out of it. Which is both depressing and hopeful. Depressing, since we're not training boys out of this - but hopeful, since I'm pretty certain that at least we can.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:33 PM on December 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, Eyebrows, thank you for being there for her. There was no one there for me.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:37 PM on December 9, 2015
posted by hydropsyche at 7:37 PM on December 9, 2015
The thing about "He's just doing that because he likes you" is that sometimes it's true! Small children have terrible social skills and often attempt to make friends by behaving like jackasses! The recipient child gets the mixed message and is legit confused!
But the way to handle that is to be clear and compassionate and say, "I think Johnny wants to be friends with you, but he doesn't understand how a friend is supposed to act," (and then talk to Johnny about appropriate and inappropriate behavior with friends!) or "Johnny is trying to get your attention, but he doesn't care if it's good or bad attention. The best thing to do is ignore him and come get an adult; we will speak to him and he'll know he can't get your attention by being mean to you." and teach kids how to clearly articulate and enforce boundaries: "I don't like that and if you do it again I won't play with you any more."
The answer is not to insist that poor social skills are a harmless form of flirting and normalize "boys being mean" as flattering, desirable attention for the girls!
(And I have a son with a social learning issue; I really, REALLY want people talking to him while he's little about appropriate ways to behave towards friends. He needs to learn and he needs extra help. NOBODY should be saying, "Boys will be boys." (He's actually very sweet and doesn't go in for attention seeking through meanness, but he doesn't understand boundaries super-well.) I do NOT want to be still struggling with the basics when he's 16 because poor social skills got excused as boyishness! Or, god forbid, facing the sort of crisis that teenagers can precipitate that preschoolers can't.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:16 PM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
But the way to handle that is to be clear and compassionate and say, "I think Johnny wants to be friends with you, but he doesn't understand how a friend is supposed to act," (and then talk to Johnny about appropriate and inappropriate behavior with friends!) or "Johnny is trying to get your attention, but he doesn't care if it's good or bad attention. The best thing to do is ignore him and come get an adult; we will speak to him and he'll know he can't get your attention by being mean to you." and teach kids how to clearly articulate and enforce boundaries: "I don't like that and if you do it again I won't play with you any more."
The answer is not to insist that poor social skills are a harmless form of flirting and normalize "boys being mean" as flattering, desirable attention for the girls!
(And I have a son with a social learning issue; I really, REALLY want people talking to him while he's little about appropriate ways to behave towards friends. He needs to learn and he needs extra help. NOBODY should be saying, "Boys will be boys." (He's actually very sweet and doesn't go in for attention seeking through meanness, but he doesn't understand boundaries super-well.) I do NOT want to be still struggling with the basics when he's 16 because poor social skills got excused as boyishness! Or, god forbid, facing the sort of crisis that teenagers can precipitate that preschoolers can't.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:16 PM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
@allkindsoftime (and I guess to clarify the stat abit)
1 in 5 women are assaulted doesn't necessarily mean 1 in 5 men assault - usually, rapists are repeat offenders who don't get reported / the report doesn't go anywhere.
Also, for those wanting to derail the topic of women being assaulted by men as represented in this case by a bear, by bringing up how men are assaulted too, the people who are doing the assaulting are still mostly men. Mostly, as in 93%. (Not sure if there's enough data there, but that's all I can find.)
So, go ahead and bring up "men are raped too" but keep in mind that rapists are still mostly men. It's the same bear.
posted by Sallysings at 9:16 PM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
1 in 5 women are assaulted doesn't necessarily mean 1 in 5 men assault - usually, rapists are repeat offenders who don't get reported / the report doesn't go anywhere.
Also, for those wanting to derail the topic of women being assaulted by men as represented in this case by a bear, by bringing up how men are assaulted too, the people who are doing the assaulting are still mostly men. Mostly, as in 93%. (Not sure if there's enough data there, but that's all I can find.)
So, go ahead and bring up "men are raped too" but keep in mind that rapists are still mostly men. It's the same bear.
posted by Sallysings at 9:16 PM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
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sigh.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:47 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]