I was so goddamn excited about this show that it brought me to tears.
December 10, 2015 12:11 PM Subscribe
Cracked contributor Alice Jane Axness was recently encouraged by friends to check out the new Marvel series Jessica Jones (previously) on Netflix. And the reason wasn't because it's another stunning addition to the Marvel Universe, but because of it's brutally accurate depiction of sexual abusers and their victims (SLCracked).
taterpie, there were a lot of ladies I like who didn't watch it for that very reason. And I totally get why. It was still nice to see a show firmly centred around a woman with PTSD and no reliance on a man to help her out with it.
posted by Kitteh at 12:20 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:20 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
Pretty great discussion of the show and these issues over in FanFare.
posted by straight at 12:28 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 12:28 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
well now i know that jessica/kilgrave fic is a thing (of course it is) and i have to take a shower
posted by murphy slaw at 12:29 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 12:29 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've talked a lot about why I enjoyed Jessica Jones in Fanfare. Upon preview, straight beat me to it.
Women's lives have more going on than this; we're subject to other traumas as well. I'm just exhausted in that area.
Completely understandable. While I did really like how Jessica Jones approached all of this, (calling out shitty entitled behavior, not just on the part of the villain), I am glad not every show goes there. Right now, Supergirl has an entirely different theme and message, and we're getting Agent Carter back soon. Hopefully, this will demonstrate to the suits in charge that there's demand for a lot of female-led shows with lots of different things going on.
posted by mordax at 12:35 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Women's lives have more going on than this; we're subject to other traumas as well. I'm just exhausted in that area.
Completely understandable. While I did really like how Jessica Jones approached all of this, (calling out shitty entitled behavior, not just on the part of the villain), I am glad not every show goes there. Right now, Supergirl has an entirely different theme and message, and we're getting Agent Carter back soon. Hopefully, this will demonstrate to the suits in charge that there's demand for a lot of female-led shows with lots of different things going on.
posted by mordax at 12:35 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I should hang out on Fanfare more, I'm a big fan of ... just about everything. Thanks for reminding me it exists!
posted by taterpie at 12:37 PM on December 10, 2015
posted by taterpie at 12:37 PM on December 10, 2015
Something I appreciate about this write-up is that it's written by a survivor. I've had many friends who have been assaulted, one stalked so I've seen it from the periphery, but not had to deal with it myself. I've read some good looks at how JJ addresses abuse and PTSD, but it's good to get it from this perspective.
But yeah, the depiction of sexual violence against women movies and TV shows is getting really, really tired. At least this was done well, but how awesome would it have been if Jessica had found her heroism because of some other issue she had to overcome?
posted by smirkette at 12:39 PM on December 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
But yeah, the depiction of sexual violence against women movies and TV shows is getting really, really tired. At least this was done well, but how awesome would it have been if Jessica had found her heroism because of some other issue she had to overcome?
posted by smirkette at 12:39 PM on December 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Right now, Supergirl has an entirely different theme and message,
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was? There are 50,000 pieces of superhero media out there right now, but the two female-led ones have to be pitted against each other for gender highlander reasons, despite being as different as possible and going after very different audiences.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:40 PM on December 10, 2015 [57 favorites]
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was? There are 50,000 pieces of superhero media out there right now, but the two female-led ones have to be pitted against each other for gender highlander reasons, despite being as different as possible and going after very different audiences.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:40 PM on December 10, 2015 [57 favorites]
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was?
Seconded, totally seconded. I never thought of them as in competition: I'm just delighted female superheroes are being put out there, and want tons more. It's one of the things I'm pleased about with Agents of SHIELD too, (especially given how guy-heavy the MCU is in general).
posted by mordax at 12:45 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Seconded, totally seconded. I never thought of them as in competition: I'm just delighted female superheroes are being put out there, and want tons more. It's one of the things I'm pleased about with Agents of SHIELD too, (especially given how guy-heavy the MCU is in general).
posted by mordax at 12:45 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
I enjoyed this show more than Daredevil which I abandoned half way through. I just found Jessica to be a more interesting and nuanced character. I care about what happens to her whereas Daredevil, and even Luke Cage, yawn fest. I've seen that hero arc on screen, it's been done to death. But maybe thats just me, I'm getting tired of the MCU and superhero stories in general.
posted by Fizz at 12:46 PM on December 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 12:46 PM on December 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was?
YES. We have lots of different kinds of male superhero stories. Why can't we have a wide variety of female superhero stories, too? (And some non-binary ones as well!) It's like they were trying to start a catfight.
posted by smirkette at 12:47 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
YES. We have lots of different kinds of male superhero stories. Why can't we have a wide variety of female superhero stories, too? (And some non-binary ones as well!) It's like they were trying to start a catfight.
posted by smirkette at 12:47 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hopefully, this will demonstrate to the suits in charge that there's demand for a lot of female-led shows with lots of different things going on.
Yeah, I've realized that I'm pretty sure my favorite thing to watch on television is women talking to each other. For the most part, I don't really care what it's about! Often it's about something bonkers and that's great! Other times it's about like science or whatever and that's cool too! I like whimsy and humor but I've realized that the thing all of the shows I most enjoy except for Better Off Ted (Charmed, Once Upon a Time, Pretty Little Liars BEFORE I TURNED ON IT) share is that they are about women talking to each other and working together against some sort of external problem and it is my very favorite thing.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:48 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, I've realized that I'm pretty sure my favorite thing to watch on television is women talking to each other. For the most part, I don't really care what it's about! Often it's about something bonkers and that's great! Other times it's about like science or whatever and that's cool too! I like whimsy and humor but I've realized that the thing all of the shows I most enjoy except for Better Off Ted (Charmed, Once Upon a Time, Pretty Little Liars BEFORE I TURNED ON IT) share is that they are about women talking to each other and working together against some sort of external problem and it is my very favorite thing.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:48 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was?
Yeah, and JK Rowling is sure no Sylvia Plath, either!
posted by bonehead at 12:49 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, and JK Rowling is sure no Sylvia Plath, either!
posted by bonehead at 12:49 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
well now i know that jessica/kilgrave fic is a thing (of course it is) and i have to take a shower
I haven't read any, but the people I know who are writing it are really into writing horror and psychological abuse, so I wouldn't assume that it's all fluffy romance. I mean, some of it probably is, because fandom, but I also assume there's some that's probably as much Jessica/Kilgrave as the show and not exactly endorsing the thing.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:53 PM on December 10, 2015
I haven't read any, but the people I know who are writing it are really into writing horror and psychological abuse, so I wouldn't assume that it's all fluffy romance. I mean, some of it probably is, because fandom, but I also assume there's some that's probably as much Jessica/Kilgrave as the show and not exactly endorsing the thing.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:53 PM on December 10, 2015
There's also a good Slate article likening Kilgrave's powers to Gamergate, notably the paranoia that comes from knowing anyone you meet could be from an anonymous army that's turned against you.
posted by frogstar42 at 12:53 PM on December 10, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by frogstar42 at 12:53 PM on December 10, 2015 [26 favorites]
Can I just take a moment to say how dumb the Supergirl vs. Jessica Jones thing that the media tried to make happen was?
Yeah, if Jessica vs. Luke Cage is an evenly-matched fight, Jessica vs. Supergirl would be pointless. Why not Supergirl vs. Hulk or Thor?
posted by straight at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, if Jessica vs. Luke Cage is an evenly-matched fight, Jessica vs. Supergirl would be pointless. Why not Supergirl vs. Hulk or Thor?
posted by straight at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Supergirl vs. Thor makes so much more sense as they are both golden retrievers that can fly.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 12:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [39 favorites]
I will also accept Supergirl vs. Squirrel Girl on the condition that Squirrel Girl gets her own TV series.
Even then, it doesn't make much sense. Supergirl is beatable and doesn't talk to squirrels.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [13 favorites]
Even then, it doesn't make much sense. Supergirl is beatable and doesn't talk to squirrels.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [13 favorites]
well now i know that jessica/kilgrave fic is a thing (of course it is) and i have to take a shower
There's a piece on The Mary Sue that addresses the Jessica/Kilgrave fans, and I thought this part was particularly useful to understanding the whole phenomenon:
The fandom surrounding characters like Kilgrave – these supposed “rape fantasies” – are not actually fantasies about rape. Instead, they seem to be fantasies that offer the participant all of the power and control over the villain in question. Whether it’s a fan-fiction featuring Jessica or a self-insert character, the writer has ultimate authorial control over exactly what happens, moment by moment. That’s the way to get ultimate power over Kilgrave, right? To put him in your own story and make him do what you want him to do.
The whole piece is worth a read because it talks about how eagerly fandom often embraces other abusive characters -- Christian Grey, Edward Cullen, Khal Drogo, Hannibal -- and focuses on redeeming them, and what might be driving those impulses.
posted by sobell at 1:00 PM on December 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
There's a piece on The Mary Sue that addresses the Jessica/Kilgrave fans, and I thought this part was particularly useful to understanding the whole phenomenon:
The fandom surrounding characters like Kilgrave – these supposed “rape fantasies” – are not actually fantasies about rape. Instead, they seem to be fantasies that offer the participant all of the power and control over the villain in question. Whether it’s a fan-fiction featuring Jessica or a self-insert character, the writer has ultimate authorial control over exactly what happens, moment by moment. That’s the way to get ultimate power over Kilgrave, right? To put him in your own story and make him do what you want him to do.
The whole piece is worth a read because it talks about how eagerly fandom often embraces other abusive characters -- Christian Grey, Edward Cullen, Khal Drogo, Hannibal -- and focuses on redeeming them, and what might be driving those impulses.
posted by sobell at 1:00 PM on December 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
Something I do really like about both Jessica Jones and Supergirl is that both of them are unapologetically strong. Shameful as this is, when I saw each of them being full of strongness for a minute I kind of thought "that's not cute or feminine" which is such a shitty kneejerk response and I totally know better but it's in my head.
Unfortunately we live in a world where just straight up being real strong seems incongruous for women and at least to me it feels more natural for them to have a kind of defensive power (like Luke Cage has!) and I really like that even though these are such very, VERY different shows both of them do have women are just real effing strong.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:02 PM on December 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately we live in a world where just straight up being real strong seems incongruous for women and at least to me it feels more natural for them to have a kind of defensive power (like Luke Cage has!) and I really like that even though these are such very, VERY different shows both of them do have women are just real effing strong.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:02 PM on December 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
both of them do have women are just real effing strong.
And in a variety of ways:
• business acumen
• street smarts
• physical strength
• financial wealth
• sexuality
• intelligence
It's refreshing to see such a variety of diverse talent/power/agency. Take not executives in suits. It is possible to create complicated and interesting female characters who are not one dimensional.
posted by Fizz at 1:09 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
And in a variety of ways:
• business acumen
• street smarts
• physical strength
• financial wealth
• sexuality
• intelligence
It's refreshing to see such a variety of diverse talent/power/agency. Take not executives in suits. It is possible to create complicated and interesting female characters who are not one dimensional.
posted by Fizz at 1:09 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
We had some interesting discussions on fanfare about this show, which had some really strong points (awesome female characters interacting with other awesome female characters for most of the series, for example), but in the end it was a 6 episode story drawn out to 13 episodes.
I agree with others who have suggested that a few early episodes of JJ with or without Luke doing PI stuff would have been plenty satisfying and then a tighter arc for the Kilgrave plot and they still could have had a full "season" (which is totally an artificial constraint considering the nature of releasing it all at once on netflix).
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:10 PM on December 10, 2015
I agree with others who have suggested that a few early episodes of JJ with or without Luke doing PI stuff would have been plenty satisfying and then a tighter arc for the Kilgrave plot and they still could have had a full "season" (which is totally an artificial constraint considering the nature of releasing it all at once on netflix).
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:10 PM on December 10, 2015
I also like that Jessica is strong but not particularly skilled. It's a lot more common for protagonists (especially women) to fight stronger opponents and beat them with surprise, speed, skill, and cleverness. Jessica seems a lot closer to what I would be like if I had super-strength. Or like the unpredictability of what an untrained person with a gun will do in a crisis. She doesn't always do what an ideal person with her abilities could theoretically do.
posted by straight at 1:13 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:13 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I also like that Jessica is strong but not particularly skilled
I dig that even though she can leap tall buildings in a single bound, she has the sense to just take a cab most of the time.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:16 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I dig that even though she can leap tall buildings in a single bound, she has the sense to just take a cab most of the time.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:16 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I also like that Jessica is strong but not particularly skilled.
Especially because they don't play that as 'she is incompetent.' Jessica is a good detective, very smart and capable of legwork. It's made very clear that she's a sloppy, undisciplined fighter because she's never needed to put any real thought into it: she can trash your average group of mooks without any particular effort.
That really was fun.
posted by mordax at 1:19 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Especially because they don't play that as 'she is incompetent.' Jessica is a good detective, very smart and capable of legwork. It's made very clear that she's a sloppy, undisciplined fighter because she's never needed to put any real thought into it: she can trash your average group of mooks without any particular effort.
That really was fun.
posted by mordax at 1:19 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
She's a good detective, no doubt, but most of her "plans" are impulsive, ill-considered and lead to bigger problems in the end. I found that aspect of if to be fun, because she really does need a sidekick, or a team to be effective, and yet sees herself as a loner.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:21 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:21 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Supergirl is beatable and doesn't talk to squirrels.
Well, they don't talk back. It's not her fault that DC squirrels are rude.
posted by Etrigan at 1:26 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Well, they don't talk back. It's not her fault that DC squirrels are rude.
posted by Etrigan at 1:26 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
My favorite part of Jessica Jones was the part where everyone was making terrible choices but in a way that completely made sense to their character. Jessica was allowed to be as self-destructive as any of the 'gritty' protagonists in this golden age of television.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, sometimes she's really clever, sometimes she does things that are not well-thought out or straight-up dumb (or even unkind). But it's not like the writers are being lazy and asking you to just accept nonsensical actions to keep the plot moving. Other characters are quick to tell her if they think her plans are bad. And she does some things that seem dumb to the viewer but make sense from her perspective.
Over in FanFare, mstokes650 has a particularly good [spoiler-filled] analysis of Jessica's actions and motivations.
posted by straight at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Over in FanFare, mstokes650 has a particularly good [spoiler-filled] analysis of Jessica's actions and motivations.
posted by straight at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am tired of the activating event for women in 'serious' stuff being sexual abuse. Women's lives have more going on than this; we're subject to other traumas as well.
Totally understandable; but I wish people wouldn't pass on watching Jessica Jones because of this. One of the great things about the show is that Jessica, too, has other things going on than this, and other traumas; Kilgrave's abuse of her (which is not purely sexual but a great deal of psychological/emotional abuse as well) is not the only thing she has to deal with, although for this first season of the show it's definitely the most pressing issue. (I'm not sure I'd agree with characterizing the sexual abuse as being her "activating event" either.)
In other words: I get that from a cursory description, the story of Jessica Jones is superficially similar to the raped-woman-becomes-a-badass-to-get-revenge story we've seen many, many times before in the media; but this show is, in my opinion, a lot deeper and a lot more complex than that, and is well worth your time.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
Totally understandable; but I wish people wouldn't pass on watching Jessica Jones because of this. One of the great things about the show is that Jessica, too, has other things going on than this, and other traumas; Kilgrave's abuse of her (which is not purely sexual but a great deal of psychological/emotional abuse as well) is not the only thing she has to deal with, although for this first season of the show it's definitely the most pressing issue. (I'm not sure I'd agree with characterizing the sexual abuse as being her "activating event" either.)
In other words: I get that from a cursory description, the story of Jessica Jones is superficially similar to the raped-woman-becomes-a-badass-to-get-revenge story we've seen many, many times before in the media; but this show is, in my opinion, a lot deeper and a lot more complex than that, and is well worth your time.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
[mild spoiler below]
Several times throughout the show, Jessica says "I need a lawyer" and in Marvel comics, 75% of the time that line means "get ready for a Matt Murdock scene." I was really nervous that crossover happy MCU writers would take some opportunity to lay down a plank of worldbuilding for their Defenders series by having Matt turn up and solve some portion of Jessica's problems for her with his superheroing seniority. Really grateful that this never occurred. (how fun would it have been though if at some point Hogarth punted Jessica off to junior partner Jennifer Walters?)
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:28 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Several times throughout the show, Jessica says "I need a lawyer" and in Marvel comics, 75% of the time that line means "get ready for a Matt Murdock scene." I was really nervous that crossover happy MCU writers would take some opportunity to lay down a plank of worldbuilding for their Defenders series by having Matt turn up and solve some portion of Jessica's problems for her with his superheroing seniority. Really grateful that this never occurred. (how fun would it have been though if at some point Hogarth punted Jessica off to junior partner Jennifer Walters?)
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:28 PM on December 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
(how fun would it have been though if at some point Hogarth punted Jessica off to junior partner Jennifer Walters?)
I kept hoping. At least there's still time: more of these shows on the way.
posted by mordax at 1:30 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I kept hoping. At least there's still time: more of these shows on the way.
posted by mordax at 1:30 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually, now that I think of it, her real 'activating event' is a completely different trauma that still feeds a lot into her character - maybe even moreso than Kilgrave.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:31 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 1:31 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Actually, now that I think of it, her real 'activating event' is a completely different trauma that still feeds a lot into her character - maybe even moreso than Kilgrave.
That event is her activating event, but the series's (or at least this season's) is definitely Kilgrave.
posted by Etrigan at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2015
That event is her activating event, but the series's (or at least this season's) is definitely Kilgrave.
posted by Etrigan at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2015
SPOILERS - I also was so sure Matt Murdock was going to make an appearance, but in retrospect, I'm glad it was Claire instead. It was a nice underlining of the strong relationships the women on this show have with each other, whether they be friends, lovers, or business associates. They aren't always happy, but they're strong and nuanced.
posted by smirkette at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by smirkette at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
One of the things that I loved about Jessica Jones was how complex the storytelling about abuse was. The show is not just about Jessica's sexual abuse at the hands of Kilgrave - there are so many other threads being explored with Trish, and Carrie Ann Moss, and Luke Cage, and the twins down the hall, and Malcolm, and the support group.
The show doesn't shy away from ways that Jessica abuses the trust others have in her, either.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:36 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
The show doesn't shy away from ways that Jessica abuses the trust others have in her, either.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:36 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Was she not trying to superhero before Kilgrave got ahold of her? That was definitely the impression I got, but I may have been drinking along with her so I may have the timeline messed up.
posted by flaterik at 1:41 PM on December 10, 2015
posted by flaterik at 1:41 PM on December 10, 2015
That event is her activating event, but the series's (or at least this season's) is definitely Kilgrave.
But I think the difference in her arc is significant. It's not woman is victimized then turns into a badass and gets revenge. It's woman is a badass whose hero career is derailed by rape and abuse and then tries lots of different ways to deal with it. Her dealing with rape and abuse is the subject of the story, not some just some dark detail dropped carelessly into her origin or backstory.
posted by straight at 1:44 PM on December 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
But I think the difference in her arc is significant. It's not woman is victimized then turns into a badass and gets revenge. It's woman is a badass whose hero career is derailed by rape and abuse and then tries lots of different ways to deal with it. Her dealing with rape and abuse is the subject of the story, not some just some dark detail dropped carelessly into her origin or backstory.
posted by straight at 1:44 PM on December 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
I think the entire first season of Jessica Jones is largely a direct response and rebuke to the (mostly male) writers who carelessly use rape or abuse as mere character background detail.
(And also a very refreshing alternative to stories where women and people of color are just foils for the white male protagonists.)
posted by straight at 1:49 PM on December 10, 2015 [25 favorites]
(And also a very refreshing alternative to stories where women and people of color are just foils for the white male protagonists.)
posted by straight at 1:49 PM on December 10, 2015 [25 favorites]
Not talking about activating her heroism, talking about activating her story.
it's interesting that in the Alias comic, Bendis makes it explicitly clear that Kilgrave never violates Jessica's body - she's forced to watch him with other women. I guess the showrunners felt that might leave the sexual abuse 'level' in question, but to me it felt a little like adding the rape in last season's GOT. Just too much.
posted by taterpie at 1:50 PM on December 10, 2015
it's interesting that in the Alias comic, Bendis makes it explicitly clear that Kilgrave never violates Jessica's body - she's forced to watch him with other women. I guess the showrunners felt that might leave the sexual abuse 'level' in question, but to me it felt a little like adding the rape in last season's GOT. Just too much.
posted by taterpie at 1:50 PM on December 10, 2015
Actually I wasn't aware of any female super heros taking on rape or admitting to being raped. One in four women is raped, it doesn't have to all be about rape, but as someone who has dealt with it and the effects HAVE encompassed my life in many ways, I really appreciate having some stories that do involve that- especially that take out the yucky male gazy shit like GOT and turning it into porn and actually depict the long term and the very NON sexy lifelong issues some of us face with it.
I know ahuge portion of the human race is turned on by rape, but that's actually part of the complication of being out as a survivor. There are people who turned on my it even if they try to hide it and you have to deal with their weird vibes and also people all over using what happened to you as something to get off on.
This isn't to make people feel bad for their kink, I get it, just it's yet another thing to deal with as a survivor and having male therapists or friends who haven't acknowledged their turned on by or ee the vulnerability as having a raw appeal and feeding off it even when they act like they want to help. It's a problem with how it's depicted in media because for many they are going to be grappling with what turns them on about it and that's the only part people want to see depicted.
I also don't think there's anything to be ashamed of to have your victimhood seen, I think trying to make all survivors frame themselves "positively" and "empowered" at all times lest they be perpetual victims hogging attention is another obstacle, not really a benefit for some.
So I dig this. Is what I'm saying.
posted by xarnop at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [13 favorites]
I know ahuge portion of the human race is turned on by rape, but that's actually part of the complication of being out as a survivor. There are people who turned on my it even if they try to hide it and you have to deal with their weird vibes and also people all over using what happened to you as something to get off on.
This isn't to make people feel bad for their kink, I get it, just it's yet another thing to deal with as a survivor and having male therapists or friends who haven't acknowledged their turned on by or ee the vulnerability as having a raw appeal and feeding off it even when they act like they want to help. It's a problem with how it's depicted in media because for many they are going to be grappling with what turns them on about it and that's the only part people want to see depicted.
I also don't think there's anything to be ashamed of to have your victimhood seen, I think trying to make all survivors frame themselves "positively" and "empowered" at all times lest they be perpetual victims hogging attention is another obstacle, not really a benefit for some.
So I dig this. Is what I'm saying.
posted by xarnop at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [13 favorites]
The show makes a point of demonstrating that she's always been who she is, since before she got her powers even. (the absence of a Garbage poster on her childhood wall is an oversight I'm sure will be fixed with post hoc CGI soon enough) What Kilgrave put her through changed her, but it doesn't define her in the way that it does for so many Strong Female Characters.
Kilgrave is way scarier than the Purple Man character her is based on. It's been a minute since I read the comic, but I remember the Purple Man as much more of a mustache twirler. A guy who says "Well, I am the bad guy" verbatim. Kilgrave legit believes he is aggrieved and that therefore anything he does is justified. I can't remember anything in the comic so chilling as when we're shown how normal Kilgrave thinks he is.
"How do you peoply stand it, hoping people do what you want them to?"
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
Kilgrave is way scarier than the Purple Man character her is based on. It's been a minute since I read the comic, but I remember the Purple Man as much more of a mustache twirler. A guy who says "Well, I am the bad guy" verbatim. Kilgrave legit believes he is aggrieved and that therefore anything he does is justified. I can't remember anything in the comic so chilling as when we're shown how normal Kilgrave thinks he is.
"How do you peoply stand it, hoping people do what you want them to?"
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
I felt like that was kind of disingenuous of Bendis. He was trying to write what is clearly a rape story but without the rape.
It's telling that in the show, Kilgrave's victims universally regard his control as an intolerable, devastating violation (even the guy who was just forced to give Kilgrave his coat attends a support group every week). I think it gets at what people mean when they say rape is not about sex but about power.
posted by straight at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's telling that in the show, Kilgrave's victims universally regard his control as an intolerable, devastating violation (even the guy who was just forced to give Kilgrave his coat attends a support group every week). I think it gets at what people mean when they say rape is not about sex but about power.
posted by straight at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Really, it'd a fairly subtle, but Jessica's activating event add she sees it, is (rot13) Ure hfvat ure fhcrefgeratgu gb pnhfr gur nppvqrag gung xvyyrq ure snzvyl. V xabj fur fnlf fur tbg ure fgeratgu sebz gur nppvqrag, ohg vg ybbxrq gb zr yvxr fur npghnyyl hfrq vg orsber gb fznfu gur ivqrb tnzr. Rira vs vg jnfa'g, gung'f jung fur qrsvarq nf ure bevtva.
Unfortunately, whatever the cause, her takeaway from her origin wasn't something empowering like "With great power comes great responsibility", but rather "I'm a fuck-up who hurts the ones I love."
posted by happyroach at 1:58 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, whatever the cause, her takeaway from her origin wasn't something empowering like "With great power comes great responsibility", but rather "I'm a fuck-up who hurts the ones I love."
posted by happyroach at 1:58 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
He was trying to write what is clearly a rape story but without the rape.
For real, like he was trying to have it both ways. "There was rape but don't worry, not the protagonist you guys. These girls don't even have names."
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
For real, like he was trying to have it both ways. "There was rape but don't worry, not the protagonist you guys. These girls don't even have names."
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Was she not trying to superhero before Kilgrave got ahold of her? That was definitely the impression I got, but I may have been drinking along with her so I may have the timeline messed up.
She was vaguely sticking her toe into superheroing. That's actually what she was up to the first time Kilgrave spotted her and glommed onto her, which is the reason why she's so ambivalent about the notion now. She tried to be a hero in a tiny way after rejecting it out of hand for a long time, but as soon as she did, she attracted a supervillain who destroyed her life and countless other lives.
Anyway, I have a lot of huge feels about this show. I don't think, on a dispassionate, technical level, it's The Greatest Show Ever made but oh my god is it amazing from my perspective as a feminist, and an abuse survivor. Even when the plot is making me go meh, I'm still so so grateful that it got made and that it's being watched and it's popular (ish?).
The sickening feeling of having been gaslit by an abuser and then having everyone else in your life try to gaslight you on whether or not that actually happened? It's such an indescribable sinking feeling.
One thing that also really stood out to me from TFA was the bit about Jessica being strong but hey-o, she was still abused. That really resonates. I think probably the first words anyone would use to describe me--even much younger me--would be independent, self-possessed, and strong. Guess what? Still abused. First in high school where I was sexually bullied and groomed by a close friend, which (unsurprisingly) led directly to Baby's First Abusive Boyfriend in college (also fortunately Baby's Last). After I got free of him, a friend (whom he'd isolated me from so I hadn't seen much) straight up told me that she was "disappointed in me" for letting myself be abused. Like I woke up one day and was like, "meh, too lazy to not be abused today, might as well just roll with it."
I've noticed a lot of the way the show is filmed explicitly creates a feeling of dread. Camera shots are from around corners and behind furniture, so it always feels like something is lurking just out of view. It consciously takes the tropes of how horror movies are filmed except that 95% of the time... nothing is there. The camera angle is the same one used right before a horror jump-scare, but there isn't one. It's like an unresolved chord, just hanging out there. Which is exactly how it felt after I thought my abuser graduated and left campus but as it turned out he decided to be one of those dudes who sticks around going to college parties as a grownass man. So he was just... around. Randomly. Hanging out. I'd mentally prepared myself for him to be finally out of my life but... nope. I had to be constantly vigilant because I could literally physically bump into him around a corner at any time. And he enjoyed the fact that I was clearly distressed and frightened of him and would fuck with my head when I saw him. The show really captures that feeling... a little too well to be honest.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:04 PM on December 10, 2015 [23 favorites]
She was vaguely sticking her toe into superheroing. That's actually what she was up to the first time Kilgrave spotted her and glommed onto her, which is the reason why she's so ambivalent about the notion now. She tried to be a hero in a tiny way after rejecting it out of hand for a long time, but as soon as she did, she attracted a supervillain who destroyed her life and countless other lives.
Anyway, I have a lot of huge feels about this show. I don't think, on a dispassionate, technical level, it's The Greatest Show Ever made but oh my god is it amazing from my perspective as a feminist, and an abuse survivor. Even when the plot is making me go meh, I'm still so so grateful that it got made and that it's being watched and it's popular (ish?).
The sickening feeling of having been gaslit by an abuser and then having everyone else in your life try to gaslight you on whether or not that actually happened? It's such an indescribable sinking feeling.
One thing that also really stood out to me from TFA was the bit about Jessica being strong but hey-o, she was still abused. That really resonates. I think probably the first words anyone would use to describe me--even much younger me--would be independent, self-possessed, and strong. Guess what? Still abused. First in high school where I was sexually bullied and groomed by a close friend, which (unsurprisingly) led directly to Baby's First Abusive Boyfriend in college (also fortunately Baby's Last). After I got free of him, a friend (whom he'd isolated me from so I hadn't seen much) straight up told me that she was "disappointed in me" for letting myself be abused. Like I woke up one day and was like, "meh, too lazy to not be abused today, might as well just roll with it."
I've noticed a lot of the way the show is filmed explicitly creates a feeling of dread. Camera shots are from around corners and behind furniture, so it always feels like something is lurking just out of view. It consciously takes the tropes of how horror movies are filmed except that 95% of the time... nothing is there. The camera angle is the same one used right before a horror jump-scare, but there isn't one. It's like an unresolved chord, just hanging out there. Which is exactly how it felt after I thought my abuser graduated and left campus but as it turned out he decided to be one of those dudes who sticks around going to college parties as a grownass man. So he was just... around. Randomly. Hanging out. I'd mentally prepared myself for him to be finally out of my life but... nope. I had to be constantly vigilant because I could literally physically bump into him around a corner at any time. And he enjoyed the fact that I was clearly distressed and frightened of him and would fuck with my head when I saw him. The show really captures that feeling... a little too well to be honest.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:04 PM on December 10, 2015 [23 favorites]
(the absence of a Garbage poster on her childhood wall is an oversight I'm sure will be fixed with post hoc CGI soon enough)
I KNOW! The posters were all wrong - those were early 90's, not late 90's surly teen. As a former late 90's surly teen, I would know.
The other thing that separates this from GOT gratutous rape - it's never shown on screen. It's talked about, everyone knows it's horrible, but I think they took the path of least sexualization by only showing other horrific events, showing the aftermath, making the consensual sex scenes explicit, and the stuff involving Kilgrave isn't any more explicit than a kiss.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:06 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I KNOW! The posters were all wrong - those were early 90's, not late 90's surly teen. As a former late 90's surly teen, I would know.
The other thing that separates this from GOT gratutous rape - it's never shown on screen. It's talked about, everyone knows it's horrible, but I think they took the path of least sexualization by only showing other horrific events, showing the aftermath, making the consensual sex scenes explicit, and the stuff involving Kilgrave isn't any more explicit than a kiss.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:06 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Book spoilers ahead!
In the comic, she has gone full-on superhero, and if I recall is actually a reserve member of the Avengers when Kilgrave gets her under his control. (She actually escapes his control because he has an insane obsession with Daredevil [he was originally a Daredevil villain] and tells her to go beat up Daredevil. In her mind-controlled haze she sees Scarlet Witch's red costume and starts attacking her. The Avengers stop her and she's basically unconscious from their attack long enough that she wakes up out of Kilgrave's influence.) Kilgrave's rape of her (and that's definitely what it is, even if it isn't literal) isn't a defining or inciting incident, it's a major derail.
I think it's certainly possible to tell an interesting and decent story that involves rape, it's just very rare. In this case it was nice to see an alternative narrative about sexual abuse that wasn't either the inspiration for a woman to become a badass or a story primarily about how it affects the men in a victim's life.
posted by skycrashesdown at 2:22 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
In the comic, she has gone full-on superhero, and if I recall is actually a reserve member of the Avengers when Kilgrave gets her under his control. (She actually escapes his control because he has an insane obsession with Daredevil [he was originally a Daredevil villain] and tells her to go beat up Daredevil. In her mind-controlled haze she sees Scarlet Witch's red costume and starts attacking her. The Avengers stop her and she's basically unconscious from their attack long enough that she wakes up out of Kilgrave's influence.) Kilgrave's rape of her (and that's definitely what it is, even if it isn't literal) isn't a defining or inciting incident, it's a major derail.
I think it's certainly possible to tell an interesting and decent story that involves rape, it's just very rare. In this case it was nice to see an alternative narrative about sexual abuse that wasn't either the inspiration for a woman to become a badass or a story primarily about how it affects the men in a victim's life.
posted by skycrashesdown at 2:22 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I too know this show is full of imperfections but found it so engrossing on an emotional level that I just can't complain. And I wasn't even going to watch at first because I am sick of superheros and hated Daredevil with a passion! But then I read Mo Ryan's interview with the showrunner, Melissa Rosenberg, and it intrigued me enough to give the series a try.
The sickening feeling of having been gaslit by an abuser and then having everyone else in your life try to gaslight you on whether or not that actually happened? It's such an indescribable sinking feeling.
I was thinking of Jessica Jones (series and lead character) when reading about the sexual assault allegations against James Deen recently, and pondering on how women get discounted and disbelieved when relating their true experiences.
Nobody really believes what happened to Jessica! So she finds an entire room of people who can back up her story! And then people who hear all those stories still really don't believe her! Luke Cage, who should know better, doesn't really believe her!
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:29 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
The sickening feeling of having been gaslit by an abuser and then having everyone else in your life try to gaslight you on whether or not that actually happened? It's such an indescribable sinking feeling.
I was thinking of Jessica Jones (series and lead character) when reading about the sexual assault allegations against James Deen recently, and pondering on how women get discounted and disbelieved when relating their true experiences.
Nobody really believes what happened to Jessica! So she finds an entire room of people who can back up her story! And then people who hear all those stories still really don't believe her! Luke Cage, who should know better, doesn't really believe her!
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:29 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I can't understand the author's perspective on this. I'm a rape survivor, but more importantly I'm a PTSD survivor. Its horrible. Its changed me, my life, my entire world, forever. Its not pretty, its not fun, its not empowering, its not anything but a big ugly transformative thing that even nearly six years on, and after much treatment, still rears its head to ruin my life. And all I can think of is: Why the fuck would you want to watch a TV series about that? Why would you want to remind survivors of how awful what they deal with is? Why would you make entertainment about something just so horrible? Why is the reality of the torture I've been through entertainment for people?
Sure, it doesn't affect me if I don't watch it. Fine. And I won't watch it. But I do consume media, and I do read websites where people write thoughtful thinkpieces on rape (and now websites that are '5 most insane videogame easter eggs' are getting in on it! There's no escape!), and I do have to process each headline link with my brain to decide whether to read them or not. So it takes the toll even when you don't go out there and read stuff. And then there's the situation when people say 'oh, have you seen Jessica Jones? You'd love it! Its exactly what you like! That actress you were obsessed with for years is in it! She's playing a lesbian! It must be your dream come true! Its so you! Lets watch it!' you can end up having to out yourself as a rape survivor just to get them to stop being so genuinely confused why you wouldn't love this show they love SO MUCH, and man that takes a lot of emotional capacity.
I'm just...really tired. I do sometimes wish I'd been raped at a time when we didn't talk about it so much.
posted by litereally at 2:43 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sure, it doesn't affect me if I don't watch it. Fine. And I won't watch it. But I do consume media, and I do read websites where people write thoughtful thinkpieces on rape (and now websites that are '5 most insane videogame easter eggs' are getting in on it! There's no escape!), and I do have to process each headline link with my brain to decide whether to read them or not. So it takes the toll even when you don't go out there and read stuff. And then there's the situation when people say 'oh, have you seen Jessica Jones? You'd love it! Its exactly what you like! That actress you were obsessed with for years is in it! She's playing a lesbian! It must be your dream come true! Its so you! Lets watch it!' you can end up having to out yourself as a rape survivor just to get them to stop being so genuinely confused why you wouldn't love this show they love SO MUCH, and man that takes a lot of emotional capacity.
I'm just...really tired. I do sometimes wish I'd been raped at a time when we didn't talk about it so much.
posted by litereally at 2:43 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
litereally, I think everyone should get to have a break/space from dealing with rape/violent/abusive content. That's really really ok. I actually think one benefit of talking about it more is that more people are getting the message that's ok for people to need some space temporarily or permanently from that kind of content. And I am way in favor of plenty of shows that really don't go into dark, gory, horrible stuff.
I do think *WHEN* done well, some of the heavier content can be transformative and illuminating and help people who haven't been through it understand it, help people who have been through it process it and feel less alone and feel their story is better explained to people in their lives they wish understood them better without them having to recount all the horror directly.
posted by xarnop at 2:51 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I do think *WHEN* done well, some of the heavier content can be transformative and illuminating and help people who haven't been through it understand it, help people who have been through it process it and feel less alone and feel their story is better explained to people in their lives they wish understood them better without them having to recount all the horror directly.
posted by xarnop at 2:51 PM on December 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
One reason the rape issue was expressed so viscerally is due to the fact that Kilgrave mind rapes everyone he meets. This extension of rape crosses gender. (Someone needs to figure out how to express reproductive rights across gender in a form equally as powerful. Sci fi male pregnancy doesn't do it.)
Spoilers: That said, I became very annoyed that people just didn't decide to wear earplugs early on and use hand signals. It left me thinking the heroes were dumb. And a virus, really? One that became super and could control crowds.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:51 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Spoilers: That said, I became very annoyed that people just didn't decide to wear earplugs early on and use hand signals. It left me thinking the heroes were dumb. And a virus, really? One that became super and could control crowds.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:51 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Friendly PSA: generally speaking, we ask folks not to use rot-13 much, because it ends up being a problem for readers including people who use screen-readers. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:59 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
litereally, as a woman with empathy and a sexual assault in my background, when other women have told me they just can't with this show, my sole response is, "I completely understand."
I enjoyed the show but I'd have to be an idiot to pressure other women to watch it, whether or not I know their histories.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:00 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I enjoyed the show but I'd have to be an idiot to pressure other women to watch it, whether or not I know their histories.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:00 PM on December 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Earplugs wouldn't be enough. You'd have to wear blindfolds as well. And once you're wearing earplugs and blindfolds it's gonna be hard to fight Kilgrave.
posted by Justinian at 3:04 PM on December 10, 2015
posted by Justinian at 3:04 PM on December 10, 2015
Even without any assault related trauma in my background, it's super dark and intense. My husband spent the middle stretch of episodes in a fetal position begging for some comic relief.
posted by dinty_moore at 3:05 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dinty_moore at 3:05 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I do think *WHEN* done well, some of the heavier content can be transformative and illuminating and help people who haven't been through it understand it, help people who have been through it process it and feel less alone and feel their story is better explained to people in their lives they wish understood them better without them having to recount all the horror directly.
Yeah in my case the show caught me off guard. My situation wasn't physical rape but I did go through a really bad break-up that after two years I'm finally realizing how actually emotionally abusive the end part was. The emotional mess that is Jessica was something I related too so hard that a whole bunch of things clicked and kept clicking that I had to stop watching the show just to process it.
I had no idea going into the show that I was even in or had this sort of emotional stuff going on in my head. It might sound weird to some. It's not like I didn't know I was going through emotional stuff but that I had been denying a part of it in my whole process of getting over it and getting on with my life.
It was a show and portrayal that I didn't know I needed but I found out I did and still do. I fully intend on going back and finishing it eventually.
posted by Jalliah at 3:11 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah in my case the show caught me off guard. My situation wasn't physical rape but I did go through a really bad break-up that after two years I'm finally realizing how actually emotionally abusive the end part was. The emotional mess that is Jessica was something I related too so hard that a whole bunch of things clicked and kept clicking that I had to stop watching the show just to process it.
I had no idea going into the show that I was even in or had this sort of emotional stuff going on in my head. It might sound weird to some. It's not like I didn't know I was going through emotional stuff but that I had been denying a part of it in my whole process of getting over it and getting on with my life.
It was a show and portrayal that I didn't know I needed but I found out I did and still do. I fully intend on going back and finishing it eventually.
posted by Jalliah at 3:11 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
> (Someone needs to figure out how to express reproductive rights across gender in a form equally as powerful. Sci fi male pregnancy doesn't do it.)
Honorable mention goes to the Alien series for the portrayal of "there's an unwanted parasite growing inside me," but I agree that a more convincing expression might be something like the infection of male victims' DNA/sex cells. Something that jeopardizes the sense of identity more clearly, at least.
Which is why I appreciate the show's portrayal of Kilgrave's predation. There are allusions to (but not depictions of) physical and sexual assault, but virtually everyone is susceptible to the mental coercion. Because I assume abusers don't specialize in just one particular act of abuse: it's an entire skill-set or personality of an abusive and predatory nature. And I think that hits more closely to home for a larger audience, or at least helps people identify with survivors of the worse stuff more easily.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 3:42 PM on December 10, 2015
Honorable mention goes to the Alien series for the portrayal of "there's an unwanted parasite growing inside me," but I agree that a more convincing expression might be something like the infection of male victims' DNA/sex cells. Something that jeopardizes the sense of identity more clearly, at least.
Which is why I appreciate the show's portrayal of Kilgrave's predation. There are allusions to (but not depictions of) physical and sexual assault, but virtually everyone is susceptible to the mental coercion. Because I assume abusers don't specialize in just one particular act of abuse: it's an entire skill-set or personality of an abusive and predatory nature. And I think that hits more closely to home for a larger audience, or at least helps people identify with survivors of the worse stuff more easily.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 3:42 PM on December 10, 2015
I have read quite a bit about JJ and how it relates to women/abuse victims (I am a cis male with no abuse history ) and it has educated me on so many things. The discussions around the show(provided they are not MRA driven discussions) are educational for me. I have watched a couple of the episodes but the show itself sort of bores me(same with Daredevil and the Avengers movies, I am a little superheroed out). I find reading the outlines and breakdowns works better for me.
Most of what I have read is very positive but I have also found counterpoints like this breakdown by @kivabay to be enlightening as a counterpoint to all the praise.
Like I said before, the discussion about this show is such a good thing. If you told me 7yrs ago that Iron Man's success would lead to the Marvel Cinematic Universe leading to a comic book hero tv show funded by a video streaming service highlighting the abuse in our culture, I would have been seriously skeptical. But here we are.
posted by M Edward at 4:06 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Most of what I have read is very positive but I have also found counterpoints like this breakdown by @kivabay to be enlightening as a counterpoint to all the praise.
Like I said before, the discussion about this show is such a good thing. If you told me 7yrs ago that Iron Man's success would lead to the Marvel Cinematic Universe leading to a comic book hero tv show funded by a video streaming service highlighting the abuse in our culture, I would have been seriously skeptical. But here we are.
posted by M Edward at 4:06 PM on December 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
my favorite part of the show was the line, "hey, last night was fun but that doesn’t mean I want your opinion"
i mean goddamn
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 4:25 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
i mean goddamn
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 4:25 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
litereally, I'm also a PTSD survivor, and abuse (emotional, physical, sexual) survivor, and I hope I can explain why Jessica Jones is on my to-watch list.
It's not about the trauma. It's about the recovery, and the specific way in which this show demonstrates recovery. Jessica Jones is flawed, like me. She's angry, like me. She's tactless and sometimes a jerk, like I was in my 20's. It's not entertainment in the traditional "this is a fun thing to sit down and watch" sense, it's not ~fun~ media. But it is -media- and not only does it give me some cathartic relief to see a villain who is like my own abuser taken down, it also gives me something I can point to and say "He was like that. This is what I went through."
I can't always talk about my ex. Not even to people who I am most likely to be able to (my therapist, my husband, my best friends). But I can point to this and say "This is what it was like for me. This is what I lived." and people who want to know why I (take martial arts, don't drink, have agoraphobia, get viscerally angry at people facebook friending my ex, etc) might get an avenue to understand something I cannot talk about, even 20 years later.
posted by FritoKAL at 4:40 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's not about the trauma. It's about the recovery, and the specific way in which this show demonstrates recovery. Jessica Jones is flawed, like me. She's angry, like me. She's tactless and sometimes a jerk, like I was in my 20's. It's not entertainment in the traditional "this is a fun thing to sit down and watch" sense, it's not ~fun~ media. But it is -media- and not only does it give me some cathartic relief to see a villain who is like my own abuser taken down, it also gives me something I can point to and say "He was like that. This is what I went through."
I can't always talk about my ex. Not even to people who I am most likely to be able to (my therapist, my husband, my best friends). But I can point to this and say "This is what it was like for me. This is what I lived." and people who want to know why I (take martial arts, don't drink, have agoraphobia, get viscerally angry at people facebook friending my ex, etc) might get an avenue to understand something I cannot talk about, even 20 years later.
posted by FritoKAL at 4:40 PM on December 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
My husband and I managed to finish Jessica Jones through grim determination but we lost our enthusiasm for the show somewhere around the 100th time we yelled "WEAR EARPLUGS!!!" at the screen.
We felt gratified when she FINALLY took our advice but it took fucking forever.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:59 PM on December 10, 2015
We felt gratified when she FINALLY took our advice but it took fucking forever.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:59 PM on December 10, 2015
Earplugs wouldn't be enough. You'd have to wear blindfolds as well. And once you're wearing earplugs and blindfolds it's gonna be hard to fight Kilgrave.
I think you lost me. Where do the blindfolds come in?
posted by kafziel at 11:30 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you lost me. Where do the blindfolds come in?
posted by kafziel at 11:30 PM on December 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you lost me. Where do the blindfolds come in?
Kilgrave doesn't control just through the power of speech, it's communication - if you can understand what he's trying to get you to do, he can control you.
He also talks with his hands a decent amount, which I'm sure is not an oversight. (Also, the scene where they did use headphones, they showed exactly how easily it would be to have those knock off/out.)
posted by dinty_moore at 5:34 AM on December 11, 2015
Kilgrave doesn't control just through the power of speech, it's communication - if you can understand what he's trying to get you to do, he can control you.
He also talks with his hands a decent amount, which I'm sure is not an oversight. (Also, the scene where they did use headphones, they showed exactly how easily it would be to have those knock off/out.)
posted by dinty_moore at 5:34 AM on December 11, 2015
I loved the show in general, especially Trish.
It was also cool to see that the only music badass enough to block Kilgrave was Sleigh Bells.
posted by signal at 7:05 AM on December 11, 2015
It was also cool to see that the only music badass enough to block Kilgrave was Sleigh Bells.
posted by signal at 7:05 AM on December 11, 2015
He's a walking disease, in all senses. To really be able to ignore Kilgrave, given the mechanism discussed on the show, you would need a bio-safety suit, skin route closed off (tyvex and gloves) and filtered breathing (a PAPR helmet would do).
Treat him like a level 3 to 4 biohazard, and you're fine.
posted by bonehead at 7:13 AM on December 11, 2015
Treat him like a level 3 to 4 biohazard, and you're fine.
posted by bonehead at 7:13 AM on December 11, 2015
Kilgrave doesn't control just through the power of speech, it's communication - if you can understand what he's trying to get you to do, he can control you.
I don't think this is correct -- his power has always been tied to his voice, in the comics and the show. Per wikipedia:
I don't think this is correct -- his power has always been tied to his voice, in the comics and the show. Per wikipedia:
The Purple Man’s body has been altered to produce chemical pheromones which, when inhaled or absorbed through the skin, allow Killgrave to control others' actions by verbal suggestions. The effects only last as long as he is physically present and are somehow keyed to his voice and speech-pattern.Per the noncanonical but fairly well-researched Marvel Wikia:
Killgrave possesses the power to sap people's wills, allowing him to command people by simple verbal suggestion.posted by Etrigan at 7:49 AM on December 11, 2015
That's for the comics. In the show, Kilgrave's father specifically says that you can't even look at him if you want to avoid him controlling you, and he subtly compels people to do things nonverbally throughout the series (mostly through hand gestures, but there's also the writing 'HELP ME' on the window - which doesn't work because it's an air-tight container).
posted by dinty_moore at 7:56 AM on December 11, 2015
posted by dinty_moore at 7:56 AM on December 11, 2015
I felt like that was kind of disingenuous of Bendis. He was trying to write what is clearly a rape story but without the rape.
I read somewhere that it was an editorial decision, but now I can't find a source for the life of me, so I don't know if it's true. Does seem weird that what was printed got past the editors, but maybe technical compliance was all they needed? I really wish I could find out where I read that now, but finding stuff out about the comic is tough with everyone talking about the show.
posted by ODiV at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2015
I read somewhere that it was an editorial decision, but now I can't find a source for the life of me, so I don't know if it's true. Does seem weird that what was printed got past the editors, but maybe technical compliance was all they needed? I really wish I could find out where I read that now, but finding stuff out about the comic is tough with everyone talking about the show.
posted by ODiV at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2015
I'm watching it now, one episode a night. I don't read comics and I don't like superheros and for the most part I don't like American TV dramas, but I kept seeing the media buzz so I finally decided to give it a whirl. Right off the bat, I was excited to see Jane from Breaking Bad because I was bowled over by her performance.
I'm not crazy about the dark look; this is one murky show. I get that most of the action is in the evening but it feels like they added a brown filter to the whole thing.
So far I'm intrigued and want to keep watching. There was a moment for me when I caught the Superhero bug. It was when Jessica snapped off the padlocks in the hospital changing room. Sometimes I can't even open a jar of pickles and just for that moment I was thinking how sweet it would be to have that super human strength.
Mainly I'm caught up in Jessica's struggle about how to handle the situation. She's making some bad decisions but I admire that in a leading character. The moment she used her drug-addled friend/neighbor for her own ends was the point of no return for me-- I became hopelessly hooked. I can't wait to see what she does next.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not crazy about the dark look; this is one murky show. I get that most of the action is in the evening but it feels like they added a brown filter to the whole thing.
So far I'm intrigued and want to keep watching. There was a moment for me when I caught the Superhero bug. It was when Jessica snapped off the padlocks in the hospital changing room. Sometimes I can't even open a jar of pickles and just for that moment I was thinking how sweet it would be to have that super human strength.
Mainly I'm caught up in Jessica's struggle about how to handle the situation. She's making some bad decisions but I admire that in a leading character. The moment she used her drug-addled friend/neighbor for her own ends was the point of no return for me-- I became hopelessly hooked. I can't wait to see what she does next.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
What gets me is that this show, apparently, to women who have been abused, this show is about abuse, and it seems to be the only thing they get out of it orwant or able to focus on.
Which suprised the shit outta me.
I liked the show. Didn't love it: it's not the best tv out there, but it is very good. It features an interesting protagonist who is flawed ... and not because of the mental violation/rape. She always was sloppy, disorganised, none-too-subtle, but possessing intelligence and skill nonetheless. She's not too good with people, not the paragon of virtue or loyalty. She's a drinker. She's human, with understandable and relatable flaws.
The show itself has some well done scenes, some creepy horrors going on. Well done enough that I wanted to watch it all and did.
But to me it was not a show about a woman who was raped and suffers from PTSD from it.
It was about a flawed human to whom at one point something bad happened which highlighted her flaws. It was about a woman who fought an interesting villain (who was psychologically well done, I thought) who had done her wrong. And even though, yeah, he was the one who did horrible things to her, so yes, maybe strictly speaking it WAS a show about a women getting raped getting back at her rapist, there was a lot going on besides that (insecurity, super-drug abuse, human interaction, the ways in which we are flawed) that if the single thing you take away is that it was a show about a raped woman ... I think you're blind to rest and your own personal internal struggles are making you a bit myopic.
posted by MacD at 5:06 PM on December 11, 2015
Which suprised the shit outta me.
I liked the show. Didn't love it: it's not the best tv out there, but it is very good. It features an interesting protagonist who is flawed ... and not because of the mental violation/rape. She always was sloppy, disorganised, none-too-subtle, but possessing intelligence and skill nonetheless. She's not too good with people, not the paragon of virtue or loyalty. She's a drinker. She's human, with understandable and relatable flaws.
The show itself has some well done scenes, some creepy horrors going on. Well done enough that I wanted to watch it all and did.
But to me it was not a show about a woman who was raped and suffers from PTSD from it.
It was about a flawed human to whom at one point something bad happened which highlighted her flaws. It was about a woman who fought an interesting villain (who was psychologically well done, I thought) who had done her wrong. And even though, yeah, he was the one who did horrible things to her, so yes, maybe strictly speaking it WAS a show about a women getting raped getting back at her rapist, there was a lot going on besides that (insecurity, super-drug abuse, human interaction, the ways in which we are flawed) that if the single thing you take away is that it was a show about a raped woman ... I think you're blind to rest and your own personal internal struggles are making you a bit myopic.
posted by MacD at 5:06 PM on December 11, 2015
@macD
In my case at least, the reason the show hit me the way it did is because of what you commented on. It was about abuse, but more then just about an abuse woman but a more realistic then usual portrayal of a person who this shitty thing happened too because it better took into account her whole life.
It was about a flawed human to whom at one point something bad happened which highlighted her flaws. Yes, exactly which is closer to my real life lived experienced. The bad thing, abuse in this case takes who you were, warts and all and makes you into a different you, based on your before you and there is a struggle to come to terms with the now you and it it ain't always pretty.
I'm not a woman who suffered emotional abuse and suffers from it. I'm whole, flawed human being which a bad thing happened too and now life and 'me' is different. There is a lot going on in my life besides what happened as well.
This is one of the reasons why I related to the show as much as I did. The abuse was a main part of it but not the only part which to me at least is closer portrayal to the reality of how things go after a bad thing happens.
posted by Jalliah at 6:05 PM on December 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
In my case at least, the reason the show hit me the way it did is because of what you commented on. It was about abuse, but more then just about an abuse woman but a more realistic then usual portrayal of a person who this shitty thing happened too because it better took into account her whole life.
It was about a flawed human to whom at one point something bad happened which highlighted her flaws. Yes, exactly which is closer to my real life lived experienced. The bad thing, abuse in this case takes who you were, warts and all and makes you into a different you, based on your before you and there is a struggle to come to terms with the now you and it it ain't always pretty.
I'm not a woman who suffered emotional abuse and suffers from it. I'm whole, flawed human being which a bad thing happened too and now life and 'me' is different. There is a lot going on in my life besides what happened as well.
This is one of the reasons why I related to the show as much as I did. The abuse was a main part of it but not the only part which to me at least is closer portrayal to the reality of how things go after a bad thing happens.
posted by Jalliah at 6:05 PM on December 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
MacD, Jalliah, I think one of the strengths of this show is what the two of you pointed out- Jessica's story does not begin and end with Killgrave. She was impulsive, sarcastic, self-destructive, ridden with guilt, and wanting to help people despite herself, long before Killgrave happened. She's going to retain these traits- as the end showed, she's still Jessica Jones.
And really, the fact that this is about Jessica Jones as a whole, is why I'm interested in seeing where this show is going to go in the future.
posted by happyroach at 9:32 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And really, the fact that this is about Jessica Jones as a whole, is why I'm interested in seeing where this show is going to go in the future.
posted by happyroach at 9:32 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Toxic Masculinity in Jessica Jones: Kilgrave as a “Nice Guy” and Will Simpson as Misogynistic Hero
posted by homunculus at 9:05 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by homunculus at 9:05 PM on December 13, 2015
Thanks for the link, homunculus. I'm happy to see someone writing about Will Simpson more than to say, "oh his change is out of left field."
I kept finding Simpsons actions very uncomfortable, starting with his need to violate Trish's privacy and sense of safety in order to apologize for assaulting her. That really made me wince. And then when Trish and Simpsons starting sleeping together, I was still wincing, and thinking "that's not great" but pretty unsure about my reaction, because in many types on entertainment, the whole situation would be hunky-dory and just great.
And then he really doesn't like Jessica, and he's obviously lying to Trish while always pushing her boundaries in little ways, so I while I was pretty surprised when he shot the cop guy, I can't say I was surprised he was a bad guy. And I was gratified that the show didn't make him and Trish into some super-couple, considering all the gross sneakery he was up to.
So then I was kinda thinking the people who felt his characterarc was unearned or totally random either weren't paying attention or were totally inured to how creepy he acted from the beginning (not that I can blame them, the ways things are.) So it's nice to see someone writing about it.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:44 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I kept finding Simpsons actions very uncomfortable, starting with his need to violate Trish's privacy and sense of safety in order to apologize for assaulting her. That really made me wince. And then when Trish and Simpsons starting sleeping together, I was still wincing, and thinking "that's not great" but pretty unsure about my reaction, because in many types on entertainment, the whole situation would be hunky-dory and just great.
And then he really doesn't like Jessica, and he's obviously lying to Trish while always pushing her boundaries in little ways, so I while I was pretty surprised when he shot the cop guy, I can't say I was surprised he was a bad guy. And I was gratified that the show didn't make him and Trish into some super-couple, considering all the gross sneakery he was up to.
So then I was kinda thinking the people who felt his characterarc was unearned or totally random either weren't paying attention or were totally inured to how creepy he acted from the beginning (not that I can blame them, the ways things are.) So it's nice to see someone writing about it.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:44 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
We Don’t Need Another Hero: How Netflix’s Jessica Jones Saved My Life
posted by homunculus at 9:45 PM on December 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 9:45 PM on December 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
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