Baby steps in Saudi women's rights and democracy
December 12, 2015 1:45 PM Subscribe
Today (Dec. 12, 2015) marks a few significant milestones for Saudi Arabia: the third time municipal elections have been held in recent times, and even bigger, the first time women could vote, and stand as candidates, though female candidates had to deal with a number of restrictions and rules not placed on male candidates. Despite these limitations and the low turn-out by women, Hatoon al-Fassi, a Saudi professor and leading women's rights activist, embraces these "baby steps" towards more equal rights and greater democracy. At the same time, the younger generation of Saudi women find more freedom and progress in a new gaming convention for women only.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:48 PM on December 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not for nothing, but I would pay good money to go to a female gaming convention.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:52 PM on December 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:52 PM on December 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
And for more history and context, here's a recent Guardian article on the suffragettes of Saudi Arabia, and the 2013 report on Saudi Arabia from Freedom House. Also, here's more information on women's rights in Saudi Arabia from an event that was held earlier this year.
Final bonus link: an interview with Dr. Hatoon al-Fassi on Frontline from 2005.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:53 PM on December 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Final bonus link: an interview with Dr. Hatoon al-Fassi on Frontline from 2005.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:53 PM on December 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
How are games OK and movies and concerts not OK? Is it that they don't involve people coming together in groups (IRL)?
posted by gottabefunky at 4:05 PM on December 12, 2015
posted by gottabefunky at 4:05 PM on December 12, 2015
Why does the media persist in calling Saudi's culture 'conservative' when all evidence indicates that it's actually barbaric, medieval and tyrannical?
posted by grounded at 4:05 PM on December 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by grounded at 4:05 PM on December 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Can't it be both? I think fundamentally what "conservative" means is being in favour of the status quo and suspicious of reform. SA fits the bill.
posted by bracems at 4:17 PM on December 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bracems at 4:17 PM on December 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, as mentioned in another recent thread, don't piss off your allies. Calling your ally "barbaric" is generally bad for international relationships, even/especially if it is (close to) the truth.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:25 PM on December 12, 2015
posted by filthy light thief at 7:25 PM on December 12, 2015
Well, we definitely didn't piss off our Saudi "allies" by following the money that financed the 9/11/01 attacks to Bin Laden's family and other well-heeled Saudis. Frankly, there is less difference between ISIS and Saudi Arabia, than between the U.S and Canada.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:08 PM on December 12, 2015
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:08 PM on December 12, 2015
Calling your ally "barbaric" is generally bad for international relationships...
Please note that my comment is specifically about the media describing Saudi's culture as 'conservative'. The US and UK government can refer to the Saudi beheaders and slavers and terrorist-funders as 'our allies' and 'conservatives' as much as they please, but it's really the media's job to report the facts in clear language.
posted by grounded at 8:29 PM on December 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Please note that my comment is specifically about the media describing Saudi's culture as 'conservative'. The US and UK government can refer to the Saudi beheaders and slavers and terrorist-funders as 'our allies' and 'conservatives' as much as they please, but it's really the media's job to report the facts in clear language.
posted by grounded at 8:29 PM on December 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
How are games OK and movies and concerts not OK? Is it that they don't involve people coming together in groups (IRL)?
More or less. Expectations and behaviors in regard to a public sphere are complex. The change and disruption of indoor malls have taxed public opinion and the religious police (mutawa) to their limits. The majority of young people (15-30) I spoke to were annoyed by the ban on cinemas, but Saudis watch whatever they want on cable and the western social conventions surrounding going to a concert are absent.
I lived in a walled compound of teachers and our management allowed Arab teachers to live among us. So, I learned a lot. Most conclusions about Saudi culture are too binary for me to address. I went there in 2009, stayed through the Arab Spring, and left in 2013. I think the default opinion on MetaFilter (and pretty much elsewhere) is screw the Prime Directive and agitate-- which I find surprising among the secularly educated. What several women teachers related was a disappointing level of infantilization among middle-aged women and a heart-breaking naivete among young women in regard to marriage. And I witnessed the privilege of young men to be as disabling. But I'm thankful for the differences in cultures. I prefer it to uniformity.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 10:19 PM on December 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
More or less. Expectations and behaviors in regard to a public sphere are complex. The change and disruption of indoor malls have taxed public opinion and the religious police (mutawa) to their limits. The majority of young people (15-30) I spoke to were annoyed by the ban on cinemas, but Saudis watch whatever they want on cable and the western social conventions surrounding going to a concert are absent.
I lived in a walled compound of teachers and our management allowed Arab teachers to live among us. So, I learned a lot. Most conclusions about Saudi culture are too binary for me to address. I went there in 2009, stayed through the Arab Spring, and left in 2013. I think the default opinion on MetaFilter (and pretty much elsewhere) is screw the Prime Directive and agitate-- which I find surprising among the secularly educated. What several women teachers related was a disappointing level of infantilization among middle-aged women and a heart-breaking naivete among young women in regard to marriage. And I witnessed the privilege of young men to be as disabling. But I'm thankful for the differences in cultures. I prefer it to uniformity.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 10:19 PM on December 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not for nothing, but I would pay good money to go to a female gaming convention.
It exists. Some of my friends vend at it or are otherwise involved and said it was amazing.
posted by emptythought at 10:30 PM on December 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
It exists. Some of my friends vend at it or are otherwise involved and said it was amazing.
posted by emptythought at 10:30 PM on December 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Angry Arab says:
It is stunning that all Western media are cheering the story of women voting in municipal elections in Saudi Arabia. Even the Guardian got into the festivities. Do they not know that each sovernoroare in Saudi Arabia is run by a prince and that municipal councils have no power whatsoever and are at the whim of the prince?posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:34 AM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the default opinion on MetaFilter (and pretty much elsewhere) is screw the Prime Directive and agitate-- which I find surprising among the secularly educated.
I wouldn't find Saudi Arabia so noxious if it weren't for the contrast between how mainstream opinion treats them versus Iran. The primary difference is that one of these countries plays well with international money and the other doesn't, so Saudi Arabia is our conservative allies while Iran is part of the axis of evil and we should nuke them. It's completely unhinged. If anything my general impression is that because of the period spent as an aggressively secular country prior to the revolution, Iran has a stronger reform movement and less restrictive expectations/rules for women. But Saudi Arabia has oil and is willing to play ball, so we like them.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:27 AM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't find Saudi Arabia so noxious if it weren't for the contrast between how mainstream opinion treats them versus Iran. The primary difference is that one of these countries plays well with international money and the other doesn't, so Saudi Arabia is our conservative allies while Iran is part of the axis of evil and we should nuke them. It's completely unhinged. If anything my general impression is that because of the period spent as an aggressively secular country prior to the revolution, Iran has a stronger reform movement and less restrictive expectations/rules for women. But Saudi Arabia has oil and is willing to play ball, so we like them.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:27 AM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
If they keep up these reforms we may have to stop treating them as a pariah state and begin opening up trade relations with them.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:02 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:02 PM on December 13, 2015
The Impossible Defense of an Atheist Poet the Saudis Want to Behead: In Saudi Arabia the number of writers and bloggers facing the whip and the sword—and even crucifixion—is growing. Sound a bit like ISIS? Many think so.
posted by homunculus at 10:45 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by homunculus at 10:45 PM on December 13, 2015
For The First Time, Women Elected To Municipal Councils In Saudi Arabia (NPR, Morning Edition from today - transcript will go up later today).
I see the Angry Arab's point on the municipal councils being pretty much a sham of democracy, but I think he (?) overlooks the societal shift in allowing women to vote, and moreso, hold positions of (no) power alongside men. In this, they are becoming more equal, even if they can't go anywhere alone without a related male to chaperone them, drive, wear clothes or make up that show off their beauty, etc.. They were voted into power by men, because a fraction of the registered voters were women in this past election.
I wonder how long the conservative (or barbaric) religious leaders will retain their power. Will they die off and allow a more open younger generation to take over, or will they be replaced by like-minded men? I know this is anecdotal in the scope of governing a country, but a Saudi company that produced the first successful Arabic-language video game, Unearthed: Trail of Ibn Battuta, included two lead characters, a brother and sister. The sister is something of a rarity, even in much Western gaming, as she is smart, intellectual and plays an active role in the game.
The kids are alright, but they've got their work cut out for them.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I see the Angry Arab's point on the municipal councils being pretty much a sham of democracy, but I think he (?) overlooks the societal shift in allowing women to vote, and moreso, hold positions of (no) power alongside men. In this, they are becoming more equal, even if they can't go anywhere alone without a related male to chaperone them, drive, wear clothes or make up that show off their beauty, etc.. They were voted into power by men, because a fraction of the registered voters were women in this past election.
I wonder how long the conservative (or barbaric) religious leaders will retain their power. Will they die off and allow a more open younger generation to take over, or will they be replaced by like-minded men? I know this is anecdotal in the scope of governing a country, but a Saudi company that produced the first successful Arabic-language video game, Unearthed: Trail of Ibn Battuta, included two lead characters, a brother and sister. The sister is something of a rarity, even in much Western gaming, as she is smart, intellectual and plays an active role in the game.
The kids are alright, but they've got their work cut out for them.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
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