Don’t do it. Don’t fight Sisko.
December 13, 2015 12:52 PM   Subscribe

 
What a violent day on the blue. Fighting poets, fighting DS9 characters, clowns fighting firefighters, Scott Adams....
posted by shakespeherian at 1:00 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


OK, the poets were funny but I think this was even funnier. The line about fighting Odo being like fighting a Go-gurt made me straight up giggle.
posted by town of cats at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


By comparison, the only person on Voyager I'd think twice about fighting is Suder. Paris and Kim? I'd take them on together, and be drunk and passed out for it, and still probably knock them out, likely using one as a club against the other.

Okay, Janeway or Torres I'd take seriously as an opponent, but I'd still Fight Club Voyager over DS9 any day.
posted by fatbird at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


No Worf, but then I realized that is about as challenging as taking on a tribble. He would make some over-dramatic statement about honour or what a true warrior is, then he would get knocked over at the first blow and make some gum-baring screech while toppling over a console.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:07 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Kira killed a man for the first time when she was a prepubescent toddler subsisting on only bugs and her own fury.

Kira also has the distinction of having knocked out half a dozen security officers with her bare hands and while she was five months pregnant (which for Bajorans is equivalent to nine months for humans). Don't mess with her.
posted by Cash4Lead at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Seems legit. Isn't Bashir some kind of Kham style genetic super being though? No matter, still crap in a fight, still a bad idea for stated reason.
posted by Artw at 1:09 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


SISKO: Someone tried to kill you, Garak. Whoever it was may try again, so if I were you I would give this matter some serious thought.
GARAK: Well, let me see. I mean, there's the Nausicaan whose wedding suit I misplaced, and that Yridian I owe money to. And of course, there's always Major Kira.
BASHIR: This is serious, Garak.
GARAK: I'm being serious. I don't think she likes me.
ODO: She doesn't. But if she wanted you dead, you would be.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:11 PM on December 13, 2015 [40 favorites]


I mean… you can definitely take him, but why would you? Something horrible and confusing is bound to happen to him in an episode or two, anyway. Leave the poor man in peace. Don’t fight O’Brien.

Buy the man a drink instead. But don't talk to him, don't play darts, just leave the guy the fuck alone.
posted by nubs at 1:13 PM on December 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


If I fought this DS9 character, would I win?

I don't need to read this. Are you kidding me? The answer is "NO".
posted by selfnoise at 1:14 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Although now that I think of it, Wolf does lose a lot of fights he should really win.

Also, Gul Dukat brags a lot and you can take that opportunity to punch him in the dick.
posted by selfnoise at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Riker manages to shut down O'Brien completely by saying "you know what you did" - this seems like it would be an effective way to defeat him in most cases.
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Worf gets taken out by random pieces of scenery all the time. The man got beat up by a barrel. I think I could take him.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:21 PM on December 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Those batleth things look like you'd just get tangled in them, so double your chances against any Klingon with one.
posted by Artw at 1:23 PM on December 13, 2015


Don't fight Morn, either. Maybe you could take him, but why bother? Go out drinking with him instead. You'll probably wake up in a holding cell the next morning, but it will be worth it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:23 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Are you a non-recurring villain whose badassitude needs to be established in the first act of an episode? Then you are guaranteed to defeat Worf. Otherwise not so much.
posted by shadow vector at 1:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


The Weyouns are all pretty punchable.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Didn't Worf, like, fight every single genetically engineered to fight Jem'Hadar ever and nobody could even beat him? Maybe you could take TNG pageboy-hair Worf, but not DS9.
posted by thetortoise at 1:29 PM on December 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Voyanger could probably do without the entire crew except Hologram Doctor and Seven of Nine, who could probably account for themselves quite well .
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I have to stand up for Worf here. There's a whole storyline that turns on him taking an incredible level of punishment in the fighting pit of a Dominion prison. He can certainly hold his own, but I will admit he is easily ambushed.
posted by Cash4Lead at 1:30 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Although now that I think of it, Worf does lose a lot of fights he should really win.

That's because he has been conditioned into thinking he is wrong or is denied by other Enterprise officers. If we blame anyone, we blame Picard and the rest of the crew.
posted by Fizz at 1:33 PM on December 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


I actually think fighting Quark is probably not a great idea either, the more I think about it? Like yeah everything the article says holds but I feel like Quark would fight dirty, and he's usually in an environment where there are lots of bottles he can break and wield. If it came down to a matter of survival I think Quark would do just fine.
posted by town of cats at 1:37 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Morn is a master criminal, who spars with Worf and Jadzia in his spare time, and is walking around with a fortune in latinum in his stomach. Don't fight Morn. Also, don't get stuck talking to him. Dude never shuts up.


Don't fight Ezri. She's basically Gidget in space. Yes, you could probably take her (although she is a gymnast, and pretty damn quick), but then you'd be the being who beat up Gidget in space. Do you want to live with that?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:38 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Also, don't fight Gul Dukat. Yes, he's a horrible shit, and you could probably beat him, but Kira has firsts on beating the green out of him, and you really want to stay on her good side.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


O'Brien has about 4000 ways to kill you that all look like mysterious system failures. "Oh no, another plasma conduit ruptured!"
posted by a dangerous ruin at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


Oh god I just looked at my Recent Activity and it is full of nerd gibberish. Hubris, thy name is throw-away one-liner!
posted by shakespeherian at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Also, O'Brien is a former combat engineer, with some pretty severe repressed rage, and PTSD-stare. I feel like it would only take a little push to tip him into taking your head, keeping it in his office, and having occasional conversations with it.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:43 PM on December 13, 2015 [22 favorites]


What a violent day on the blue. Fighting poets, fighting DS9 characters, clowns fighting firefighters, Scott Adams....

If you fought...
Mathowie: cannot normally be encountered, let alone fought.
Cortex: Wields the banhammer. You lose.
Restless Nomad: Turns thread into heartwarming story. You look like a fool, and lose.
LobsterMitten: takes mittens off. You lose again.
and so it goes...
posted by librosegretti at 1:44 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Surely this thread is incomplete without, well, Sisko punching Q?
posted by thomas j wise at 1:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Sisko really doesn't do that Q shit.
posted by Artw at 1:53 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


One of the things I took away from my many years of watching Star Trek is that everybody, everybody misses the feint. Fake the right and punch with the left.
posted by Sphinx at 1:57 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Expanding this question into the larger Star Trek universe, I would love to battle Geordi La Forge. There's just something about La Forge that drives me crazy. He's like some kind of smarmy step-dad that is always doing the right thing and knows it. I'd love to get into a boxing ring and go 12 rounds.
posted by Fizz at 1:58 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Additional complication with Sisko- he's a major figure in a whole religion. Should you happen to beat him, it may be the thing that actually unites the various sects of Bajor.

And they are really good at hiding bombs in places.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:58 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


I don't have it in me to kick Ezri's ass, but I'd pay good money to see Nog do it. Or any of her other unfortunate "therapy" clients.
posted by thetortoise at 2:03 PM on December 13, 2015


You probably can't knock Vic Fontaine out because he's a hologram, but please fight him anyway. Punch him in his smug, baby boomer-fantasy mouth. Fight him on behalf of the characters forced by writerly fiat to consider him "cool." Fight him on behalf of all the Kira/Odo shippers whose dreams Vic made look goofy and cheap via his mawkish endorsement. Fight him for being the perfect expression of Trek Writer Smarm. Fight him for being probably the most egregious example of everybody in Star Trek Being inexplicably obsessed with the 20th century. Please, please fight Vic Fontaine. Doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's the right thing to do.
posted by Sokka shot first at 2:04 PM on December 13, 2015 [37 favorites]


Elim Garak

End Fight Probability: There is a 105% chance Garak straight up murders you.


This is the post that I needed today.
posted by indubitable at 2:05 PM on December 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


That look on Sisko's face when he jacks Q.... I've seen that look before.
posted by selfnoise at 2:06 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't have it in me to kick Ezri's ass, but I'd pay good money to see Nog do it.

Awww leave poor Ezri alone. She wasn't even supposed to be here, okay? She would have far preferred a twee indie comedy from the early 2000s, possibly with Kimya Dawson on the soundtrack.
posted by panama joe at 2:16 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I actually think fighting Quark is probably not a great idea either, the more I think about it? Like yeah everything the article says holds but I feel like Quark would fight dirty, and he's usually in an environment where there are lots of bottles he can break and wield. If it came down to a matter of survival I think Quark would do just fine.

Counterpoint: The only reason that Quark doesn't die in every episode is that DS9 predates South Park's running gag of killing a main character and then bringing them back the next week without explanation.

I mean just off the top of my head, Quark gets thrown over the bar in an epic brawl where a bunch of Cardassians and J'em Hadar just straight up kill each other; he flips a coin on disarming a live, unexploded torpedo lodged in the Defiant; he gets mixed up with weapons dealers; the FCA comes after him with Nausicans, etc.
posted by indubitable at 2:22 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Man I wish there was a quasi-recurring DS9/TNG webcomic with inter-series roleplaying as its conceit that could riff on this question, perhaps as a sidebar.
posted by Svejk at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


Counterpoint: The only reason that Quark doesn't die in every episode is that DS9 predates South Park's running gag of killing a main character and then bringing them back the next week without explanation.

Aeon Flux probably gets to own that one.
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Quark would probably bribe you not to fight him, then buy you a drink, then you'd wake up on a Lissepian freighter, and all your bank accounts would be empty.


Also, the head of a minor Klingon house still has a great deal of sentimental feeling towards him. So he's got that going for him. Which is nice.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:38 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Enterprise Worf and DS9 Worf are two different opponents.

Enterprise Worf is generally there to set up some other person as being dangerous so that whoever takes out said enemy (probably Data. Snore.) will look more heroic. Enterprise Worf is what pro wrestling calls a jobber.

DS9 Worf is an entirely different beast. DS9 Worf will fucking eat people. Don't fight DS9 Worf. Go back in time and fight Enterprise Worf if you need the bragging rights.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:44 PM on December 13, 2015 [33 favorites]


nerd gibberish

I'd say it would make a great sock puppet name, except I would be posting under it constantly.
posted by nubs at 3:05 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Anyone who thinks that they can take Seven of Nine needs to rewatch "Tsunkatse". Sure, she got beaten by The Rock in Space, but c'mon.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:08 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Nah, anyone can take Odo, as long as it's not a fair fight. He can be knocked out, it happens in Vortex (Season 1). For years, I thought that was an inaccuracy and it drove me nuts, but then I realized that because changelings (good ones, anyway) actually duplicate every bit of an entity (as Odo points out in The Adversary), Odo must have some kind of brain matter encased in something approximating a skull. So as long as you have a powerful punch and he doesn't see you coming, you're good.
posted by lesli212 at 3:13 PM on December 13, 2015


I mean just off the top of my head, Quark gets thrown over the bar in an epic brawl where a bunch of Cardassians and J'em Hadar just straight up kill each other; he flips a coin on disarming a live, unexploded torpedo lodged in the Defiant; he gets mixed up with weapons dealers; the FCA comes after him with Nausicans, etc.

DS9 ended up subverting that when he gets the drop on a couple of Jem'Hadar; they obviously don't think that he's going to shoot them, but he does, and he seems as shocked as anyone else.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:23 PM on December 13, 2015


Is my name in the opening credits? Then I'm not going to win, am I? Honestly people.

> Fight him on behalf of all the Kira/Odo shippers whose dreams Vic made look goofy and cheap via his mawkish endorsement.

Vic's not the goofy-generator in that sentence.
posted by Leon at 3:43 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would think Odo's texture more akin to Silly Putty than to yogurt. Like punching a bag of peanut butter.
posted by emjaybee at 4:12 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


If DS9 ever made it to CAN Netflix I would so luv it. Please lawyers, make it so.
posted by ovvl at 5:02 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Pretty sure the Duras Sisters would kick everyone on this list's asses all the way to Sto'Vo'Kor.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


You should never fight anybody in Starfleet. They're all trained in some sort of crazy space judo, and can and will kick serious ass if they have to. Yes, probably even Troi. At some point pretty much everybody gets into a scuffle with some big burly alien, and our guys invariably start doing all kinds of crazy flying kicks and stuff.

(I thought it was funny-ish, but the anti-Quark stuff was kind of ugly. Over on Fanfare we've had it out about Quark a little bit, and my take on the guy is that he's actually pretty damn progressive and even noble as Ferengi go but he likes to think of himself as a traditional, sleazy Ferengi. So he actually respects women way more than most Ferengi males do and is attracted to strong women like Jadzia, but he THINKS he should think of women as lesser beings because that's what he's been taught he should think. So he's like some bizarro version of a guy who is a rotten bastard all week but still goes to church and sings the hymns on Sunday. Almost everything that's good in Quark is stuff he's kind of ashamed about, because the Ferengi idea of good is basically our idea of sleazy and awful.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:15 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Dax is basically a Klingon in a much hotter, more capable body.

What exactly is the correlation between a hot bod and fighting prowess? And it's a little speciesist to suggest Jadzia has a hotter body that any Klingon, because have you seen K'Ehleyr, Lursa or B'etor?
posted by peeedro at 5:59 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Don't fight Martok. Because somehow, against the laws of probability and nature, this wheezing, one-eyed, walking hangover with severe back problems will knock you the fuck out before you've taken one step, and will probably drink your blood afterward.
posted by duffell at 6:09 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Don't fight Rom- he looks kind of nervous and twitchy, and really not much of a challenge, but if you threaten, or even hint at threatening to hurt his family or friends, he will explode on you like a whirlwind of pain.

If you are lucky, Nog will pull him off you before he's bitten off both your ears.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


- If you're going to fight Damar, fight him after the fight has left him and his spirit is broken by drink. Before he regains it FOR CARDASSIA, but after he loses it for betraying Dukat.

- Don't fight Leeta. She's a lover, not a fighter, and also, do you really want to be that asshole who fights a dabo girl?

- Don't fight Luther Sloan. He makes Garak look like a good guy.

- Don't fight Enabran Tain. He makes Garak look like a good guy.

- Actually, Garak is a good guy, but yeah, he'll murder the fuck out of you. And Tain and Sloan won't even have the same mercy Garak will do--they won't make it quick.
posted by qcubed at 6:33 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Repeated use of probability values outside the usual 0-100% range apparently causes me actual physical distress.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 6:55 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fun fact: the episode where Garakngoes full on murder nutjob on an abandoned space station is by Bryan Fuller of Hannibal fame.
posted by Artw at 6:56 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


TheWhiteSkull: "Morn is a master criminal, who spars with Worf and Jadzia in his spare time, and is walking around with a fortune in latinum in his stomach. Don't fight Morn. Also, don't get stuck talking to him. Dude never shuts up.


Don't fight Ezri. She's basically Gidget in space. Yes, you could probably take her (although she is a gymnast, and pretty damn quick), but then you'd be the being who beat up Gidget in space. Do you want to live with that?
"

thomas j wise: "Surely this thread is incomplete without, well, Sisko punching Q ?"

I pretty much dropped DS9 not too long after the Sisko/Q thing, as I was hoping for a little more Kirk and a little less Picard, but only found disappointment, so I really don't know from Ezri. But GISing her shows I would roll a critical fail against Perkiness.

Also -

Samizdata: Jacks you from around a corner with a bat (No, NOT the flying kind.)
posted by Samizdata at 7:02 PM on December 13, 2015


a dangerous ruin: "O'Brien has about 4000 ways to kill you that all look like mysterious system failures. "Oh no, another plasma conduit ruptured!""

STUPID IMPORTED KNOCK-OFF TRANSPORTER BUFFERS!

I've been told you can live a meaningful life inverted like that...
posted by Samizdata at 7:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Bashir is being role-played by Riker, which is pretty good reason to fight him.
posted by zompist at 7:04 PM on December 13, 2015


You're missing out, Samizdata. Every Trek show has needed time to find its voice, and DS9 is quite rewarding – and as clear a transitional link between Trek and contemporary BSG as exists anywhere.
posted by lumensimus at 7:10 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


lumensimus: "You're missing out, Samizdata. Every Trek show has needed time to find its voice, and DS9 is quite rewarding – and as clear a transitional link between Trek and contemporary BSG as exists anywhere."

I MIGHT be willing to try again at some point. Maybe.
posted by Samizdata at 7:23 PM on December 13, 2015


I got three strips on Jake Sisko.
posted by clavdivs at 7:34 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


You're missing out, Samizdata. Every Trek show has needed time to find its voice, and DS9 is quite rewarding – and as clear a transitional link between Trek and contemporary BSG as exists anywhere.

I MIGHT be willing to try again at some point. Maybe.


Sometimes you've gotta roll the hard six.
posted by duffell at 7:46 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The Weyouns are all pretty punchable.

Weyoun would smile as a squad of Jem'Hadar decloaked around you and went to town on your kidneys, then buy you a drink and urge you to join him in putting this unpleasant episode behind the two of you.

Also, this is as good a place as any to plug the DS9 rewatch on FanFare.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:50 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Also, this is as good a place as any to plug the DS9 rewatch on FanFare.

Oh wow, and you're right at the beginning of beard-era Sisko! I think I may have to join you all...
posted by panama joe at 8:05 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


duffell: "You're missing out, Samizdata. Every Trek show has needed time to find its voice, and DS9 is quite rewarding – and as clear a transitional link between Trek and contemporary BSG as exists anywhere.

I MIGHT be willing to try again at some point. Maybe.


Sometimes you've gotta roll the hard six.
"

Or you just say FIDO - Fuck It and Drive On.

(Or should that be FIWO - Fuck It and Warp On?)
posted by Samizdata at 8:27 PM on December 13, 2015


Pretty sure the Duras Sisters would kick everyone on this list's asses all the way to Sto'Vo'Kor.

Lursa...

B'Etor...

and Peggy
posted by maryr at 8:52 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not at all impressed by the Duras Sisters. They failed at every turn. They were wrong about all things. Elmer Fudd is a more intimidating opponent. The Duras Sisters are the Bill Kristol and Tucker Carlson of the Klingon Empire.

The Duras Sisters have a 0% chance of knocking you out individually or as a team. In fact, as a team, they have a higher chance of accidentally headbutting one another and knocking each other out.

Don't fight the Duras Sisters, because there's no point.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:45 PM on December 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Don't fight the Duras Sisters, because there's no point.

But do accept an invitation to tea, because they make excellent tea.
posted by bryon at 11:45 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


For those who enjoy this sort of thing*, I offer Shea Serrano's If I Fought This Rapper, Would I Win chart. (Spoilers: do not fight DMX.)

(*Is this a thing? I've not seen it outside these two examples, but if there's more, let me know because I apparently enjoy them all out of proportion.)
posted by pseudonymph at 12:36 AM on December 14, 2015


Do not fight Miles O'Brien. Is there really anything you can do to him the universe hasn't done already?
posted by pwnguin at 1:47 AM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Anybody who could punch Jake Sisko OR Leeta needs to be dumped out the nearest airlock.

You probably can't knock Vic Fontaine out because he's a hologram, but please fight him anyway. (etc.)

That kind of talk is one of the reasons the franchise ended up in a ditch getting banged up with a hammer and stripped for parts by JJ Abrams. Trekkies never seem to grasp how they played such a key role in taking Trek down.

Vic Fontaine was a Vegas lounge lizard from a 1962 that never was, and he has absolutely no business being in Trek and that's what made him so fun. Captain Proton and all that Flash Gordon stuff on Voyager was fun. The James Bond stuff on DS9 was gimmicky and weird and tons of fun. But the fans just hissed and howled and griped about every. freaking. thing. The creators of DS9 and Voyager were working their freaking butts off to make good Trek, and all they kept hearing was how DS9 sucked and Voyager sucked and everything sucked and Berman and Braga needed to die in a fire and blah de blah. Paramount heard that stuff. The creators of this show heard that stuff. So every great thing you saw on DS9 was the result of the show's creators fighting a studio that was convinced it knew better and had piles of fan complaints to prove that the show desperately needed fixing.

Circa 2001 the people who made Trek were all obviously just fried from the absolutely relentless fan complaints and studio interference and they desperately needed a break. (Insurrection is a fantasy of going to a tranquil fantasyland where nothing too dramatic happens and you can just sit and watch hummingbirds flutter by in slow motion. When your big wish fulfillment is a slow motion hummingbird, it's time to take a freaking vacation.)

So then we ended up with Enterprise, which was a nice, safe, tepid Trek show nobody gave much of a damn about. It was a show on a ship called the Enterprise, with a white male captain, and a Vulcan (and a sexy lady one at that), and it was exactly what everybody said they wanted. I watched every episode, and I barely remember the thing. It was utopian sci-fi made by tired people who were going through the motions, people who had put like 15 years of their lives into this thing and spent half that time being told they didn't know what they were doing. Finally Berman and Braga ended up leaving the franchise under a black cloud, written off as failures... even though they were a couple of the guys who were largely responsible for creating the Trek that got fans hooked in the first place.

DS9 was awesome, and part of what made it awesome was the weird, random stuff like Vic Fontaine. Ira Steven Behr heard the fans complaining about Vic Fontaine, but he decided that Vic belonged on this show and Vic stayed. You may call it writerly self-indulgence; I call it a show that knows itself, defiantly being itself. If you want a Trek that was desperate to please you, watch Enterprise.

I've not seen it outside these two examples, but if there's more, let me know because I apparently enjoy them all out of proportion

Daniel O'Brien (of Cracked.com) wrote a book called How to Fight Presidents: Defending Yourself Against the Badasses Who Ran This Country. I've not read it, but he is a funny writer and seems like he could go to town with a premise like that.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:06 AM on December 14, 2015 [11 favorites]


I tried to fight Morn, but he talked me down. He had a lot of really eloquent things to say about violence and how we use it to define ourselves, but frankly he went on a bit too long about it.

Dude never shuts up.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 6:55 AM on December 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


DS9 was awesome

Strongly agree.

and part of what made it awesome was the weird, random stuff like Vic Fontaine.

And here we part ways. Weird random fun stuff can be great (in point of fact, I like the Captain Proton schtick too, even though it's unbearably dorky) but the problem with Vic Fontaine is that he was taken so desperately seriously by the characters in the show, in a way that felt deeply artificial. In particular the episode where he fixes Kira and Odo up is just desperately clumsy—fanfic-y in the worst way, in which a newly-introduced character and their opinions are suddenly very important to the regular cast of the show. I am unlikely to be convinced that people who hate Vic are the cancer that killed Trek.

There were plenty of other schlocky things on DS9 that I loved, and that I agree are part and parcel of the kind of goofy, womp-womp absurdity you can get away with on Trek. I loved Sisko's baseball obsession. I loved the baseball episode. I loved the absurd mirror universe episodes. I love That One Episode Where They Visit The Original Enterprise. I loved that one where Quark marries a Klingon. I mean, DS9 is the best Trek. But not Vic Fontaine.
posted by Sokka shot first at 8:08 AM on December 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm going to weakly defend Enterprise by saying that once it was doomed and nobody gave a shit about it then it became a lot of fun. Really the mirror universe two parter justifies the entire thing.
posted by Artw at 8:11 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


DS9 was awesome, and part of what made it awesome was the weird, random stuff like Vic Fontaine. Ira Steven Behr heard the fans complaining about Vic Fontaine, but he decided that Vic belonged on this show and Vic stayed. You may call it writerly self-indulgence; I call it a show that knows itself, defiantly being itself.

Deep Space Nine is BY FAR my most favorite ST series, and Vic Fontaine is by far my least favorite recurring character on that series.

Vic Fontaine doesn't bother me because he's fun and silly. The baseball episode was fun and silly, and I ADORED the baseball episode -- it's a highlight of the entire series for me, as are many other bizarre twists and self-indulgences.

I hate Vic Fontaine because he's a lazy plot device often nestled within incompetently-written episodes. "His Way" made me want to crawl under the couch and weep not because it was sappy and indulgent, but because it seems to have been written be a room full of men who had no experience constructing romantic comedy and no respect for how difficult the genres of romance and comedy are to write. It felt like the TV writing equivalent of frowning at a Picasso and saying, "It's like a kid's drawing, I could do that!"

So like, you know I'm glad you enjoyed him! I like when people enjoy things! But Fuck Vic Fontaine, seriously. I waited years for Odo and Kira to smush their faces together. I can barely stand to watch "His Way." It wasn't enjoyable for me, and not because I'm some crabapple fan who ruins everything.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:18 AM on December 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


I actually had to kind of shrug and indulge the writers to get through the baseball episode. It wasn't the worst episode of TV I've ever seen, but it was SO obviously the writers just having fun that I felt like I was watching one of those things they put together for the cast and crew party at the end of the season. (IIRC the self-indulgent baseball episode was kind of a trope in TV for a decade or two. I know WKRP did one, and I'm sure there were others. It always played to me like an excuse to get everybody out of the studio for a week and let them run around in a park.) Again, I didn't hate it. It was cute. But if it had gone on for episode after episode, perhaps I would have become one of those cranky-ass fans myself.

To me Vic became a real and surprisingly complex DS9 character, rather than a cute gimmick or a writerly self-indulgence, so it's just hard to click with hating the guy. It's hard to see how anybody could hate the character after It's Only a Paper Moon, the one where Nog deals with losing his leg by getting hooked on spending time in Vic's nightclub. Vic gets really confused and exasperated in that one and he has to ultimately be kind of an asshole to shake Nog out of his fantasy. The episode with the casino heist (can't be arsed to look up the title) really works for me, because not only is it some fun Oceans 11 stuff but it's got that great part where Sisko admits he resents the whole thing because a guy like him would have been a second class citizen in a 1962 club like Vic's. (But Vic is not a 1962 guy like Vic. He is their Vic.)

I've obviously been sitting on that rant about cranky Trek fans for a while, and when I saw my chance perhaps I shot my phaser a little wildly in Sokka's general direction. (But I do have the feeling Sokka had that Vic Fontaine rant corked up for at least as long.) I must admit that perhaps I am a rather cranky Trekkie myself and I need to relax a bit and appreciate the beauty of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:43 PM on December 14, 2015


I also have to say, I am not a fan of that whole Rat Pack/Sinatra thing. I find that whole era and aesthetic creepy and corny and ugh. (Whenever I see one of those guys in action I feel like I'm watching Dino & Dickie from the Young Ones.) So it's not a question of me being so taken with that sort of thing that I gave the show a pass. I was initially wary of Vic, but I quickly grew to like him. Like Sisko, I don't like guys like Vic, but I like Vic.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:59 PM on December 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


when I saw my chance perhaps I shot my phaser a little wildly in Sokka's general direction.

Hitler shot first!

I love DS9 and am enjoying the rewatch - seriously, anyone who is posting in this thread should come and join us and add your comments. I was late to the party and have only recently caught up so ended up leaving mostly unread comments in the earlier threads, but I don't care as I was more interested to see what others said.

And for those who gave up on DS9 early on, you have missed the best of it by miles, honestly.
posted by marienbad at 2:23 PM on December 14, 2015


I recently binge-watched the entirety of DS9, never having seen its original run. So I'll admit my experience may be influenced by the act of binge-watching. Message is the medium and all that.

So I'll admit that while Season 7 is strong, I found myself mildly irritated by the amount of filler in it. I mean, obviously the writers knew it was their final season, so why bother filling up time with inessential characters (Vic and Ezri), holodeck episodes (Vic again), Ferengi subplots, a baseball episode (?!), and interaction between characters who clearly had zero onscreen chemistry (Ezri and Worf)? Part of me wanted to shake the TV and be all like, "Why are they wasting our time with this? Don't they know there's a Dominion War going on?!"

I think of DS9 as a very well-designed show. And by that, I mean they had a number of really great plot arcs they could sort of check in with over time. Most of these arcs were winners, but a few of them were not. On the whole, I feel like Season 7 had an engrossing sense of urgency that was somewhat undermined by the filler.

Of course, one person's filler is another person's "welcome digression."
posted by panama joe at 2:44 PM on December 14, 2015


You know, PJ, I remember having some of that same feeling when season 7 was new. That made the baseball episode particularly baffling at the time. The whole damn show was going away, and we're spending an episode watching these characters play baseball?? (It didn't help that I just do not give half a fig about baseball or sports in general.)

But again, it gets back to DS9 being DS9. Baseball really mattered to Sisko, and while that episode was not my favorite you could say it was the culmination of Sisko's baseball thing and a chance for everybody to have a bit of low stakes fun before shit got really grim. (Like the characters on the show, I kind of had to say, "Well, it's a dumb game, but it really matters to Sisko, so...") The Ferengi stuff was baked into the show from day one, and if you didn't like it there were long stretches of DS9 that were just going to be unwatchable for you. Poor Ezri was brought in to replace the abrupt departure of Terry Farrell, and they really tried to make her a continuation as well as an interesting departure and maybe that would have worked with another season or two but as it was we were just kind of stuck with this placeholder character where Jadzia was supposed to be. Maybe Ezri was kind of a shiny new toy and the writers got too excited about her, I don't know. But I respect their efforts to say, "Dax is still here, folks! We're still telling stories about Dax. But Jadzia is (mostly) gone and Dax is different now, so let's explore the differences..."

It's a season that plays better in reruns. The final season of a lot of great shows are like that. When you watch it new, all the subtlety and slow burns and digressions just seem like weird distractions. But even if we know the show is dying, the characters don't. They are living their lives, and lives have subtlety and slow burns and digressions mixed in with all the big deal drama. The final season is also a chance for writers to finally do that story they never got a chance to do before, and there can be something delightful in that. Even if doesn't quite work, it's probably weird in an interesting way. The baseball episode is not a bad example. A DS9 baseball episode is just a wrong, freaky idea, and even if I wasn't thrilled with it it kind of amuses me that Ira Steven Behr actually got it made.

I'm gonna back out of this thread now, not because it seems like it's turning into a flamewar or anything (it doesn't) but because if I don't stop myself it seems like I'm going to spend most of 12/14/2015 writing about Star Trek on Metafilter.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:34 PM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


because if I don't stop myself it seems like I'm going to spend most of 12/14/2015 writing about Star Trek on Metafilter.

I honestly do not have a problem with you doing this.
posted by marienbad at 3:44 PM on December 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Daw! That's one of the sweetest things anybody ever said to me on Metafilter!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:51 PM on December 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


And I gotta say, we just watched Star Trek into Darkness again the other night (it just happened to be on TV) and I have no idea why people say that movie is so much worse than Abrams' 2009 thing. It's still not a great movie, but it feels a little more Trek-y and less aggro action movie jock lunkhead herf derf than the first one. Kirk and Spock actually care about each other. The death scene is actually kind of affecting, although of course it doesn't come close to Spock's death from Wrath of Khan in terms of yanking out your heart and stomping on it. If Abrams had started with a movie like this I would have kind of shrugged and said, "Well, OK, I guess." But that first movie of his was just aggressively anti-Trek and dumb-ass and it left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'll be going to the Star Wars movie with a sneer on my face, like, "OK, JJ, let's see if you can not make this suck too..."

I also think the original Terminator is like nine times better than T2. And Aliens sucks, compared to Alien. And I liked the series finale of Lost. And I even thought the Matrix sequels were pretty OK! Sometimes I feel like a geek from Bizarro World, and I love everything you hate and hate everything you love.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:57 PM on December 16, 2015


Vic Fontaine was a Vegas lounge lizard from a 1962 that never was,

You probably can't knock Vic Fontaine out because he's a hologram,

Except in the mirror universe where he is -- counter to expectations,common sense, and any scheme of logic -- an actual guy. When he gets killed, even the characters onscreen wonder aloud how this is possible.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:30 AM on December 28, 2015


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